NBA Draft Questions, Harper vs. Fox, and the USMNT’s World Cup Ceiling

18:22Tim Legler:That's got to improve, obviously. It's a huge thing, those extra three, four feet. You really have to put some time. I think he can get there. Any ball that he gets his fingertips on off the defensive glass is his very Kevin Love-like. He's smart. He can outlet the ball quickly because he's got a high IQ off the glass. He gets it out of his hands quick to the guard. That's a Kevin Love trade too. I don't love a lot of comps. I thought, yeah, Kevin Love. At first I saw it, it's like, let me think about that. Then I started watching more and more film on Boozer. I'm like, you know what? I don't mind that one.

18:51Bill Simmons:I loved, like, heavier Kevin Love was one of my favorite rebounders of all time. When he had, like, the extra 20. You couldn't displace him. If he was down there,

19:01Tim Legler:if he got position, it was game over. He wasn't going to jump over you at all. He just got his back on you, and you was done, man.

19:08Bill Simmons:One of the best offensive rebounders I've ever seen, that earlier version of him. Like, if you think about, like, the great, great, great rebounders that I've seen in person, and I'm sure you played with and against some of these guys, but Moses was an all-timer. I wrote about this in my book. Moses had this trick where he would kind of go under the basket, almost out of bounds, and then he would just back in backwards, and then he would just be next to the rim, tipping it in. Moses Barkley was incredible. Kevin Love was another one.

19:36Tim Legler:Kevin Love also did, very similarly to the big play in the game, what Mitchell Robinson did to Wemby on that big missed free throw, where they walk guys so deep they can't react to the ball. It gets beyond them. Kevin Love was great at that. I can see Boozer being that type of rebounder because they're not going to get those ones where you're going to run from point A to point B, cover 20 feet because you're tracking it with your eyes, and then you just go jump over two guys and get it. They're not going to get those kind. It's got to be done a little bit more with body positioning and then just IQ and just their sense and instincts for the ball so high.

20:14Tim Legler:So I just think Boozer, to your point, floor is pretty high with him. It'd be hard to imagine him not being a really impactful NBA player, even if he doesn't turn into a franchise guy, which all 40s top four, who knows, maybe they could. He might not, but his floor is so high, he's still going to be a really, really good NBA player.

20:36Bill Simmons:I think he's just going to be excellent. And I said this a week and a half ago. I think Utah is going to take him. I have no inside info. It's just as from watching how Danny Ainge treated the draft for the last 25 years, knowing some of the stuff that you need in Utah. They know his family, obviously, because his dad played there and his dad works for them. To have a guy who could be this good who would also be like, yeah, I'm fired up to be in Utah. I think that matters. And I'm not afraid of having him. I love him and Jaron Jackson together. To me, that's a combo that really makes sense. Whether Markkinen's there long-term or not, I don't know.

21:13Bill Simmons:And then Kessler as another shot blocker. He could play with him too. I just, I'm good with like doubling down on size over taking Peterson and hoping last year was just a weird year. And he's more like the high school Peterson versus the freshman year Peterson. I think Peterson is one of the toughest evaluations we've ever had with this. I don't know what to make of the fact that he got worse in college than he was in high school and that he didn't seem as, he doesn't seem as twitchy. He doesn't seem as fast. I don't understand it. I didn't understand the creatine thing. Like, what do you make of all this?

21:48Tim Legler:He is, first of all, I just, I'm just going from the pure, because a lot of the stuff, I don't think we have the answers to ourselves, but when you just evaluate the guy physically and his tools translating to the next level, he's one of those guys, you know, I watch him. Some of the stuff I've watched, I'm like, man, like that's NBA ready right now. Like the guy can flat out score. he's got he's got a um control about his game that is almost like even though like he's out there with another you know two 19 year olds paired or a couple of 20 year olds or whatever he just looks so much more mature in his movements that it's it's it's it's obvious how easy it's

22:27Bill Simmons:coming to him well you can see it on defense too where just the way he's able to navigate around screens and stuff he's the highest possible level he's got control man but like i'm watching him

22:38Tim Legler:I've read stuff where he views himself and maybe some people are evaluating him as like a point guard. I don't see that. I don't see that. I mean, I think he's, to me, maybe a combo guard that, yeah, you can put him in ball screen. To me, I reserve the phrase point guard for like a different level of understanding of how you're organizing and how easily you're facilitating for other people because you're two steps ahead with any action you run. you already know two defenders away what that rotation is going to look like and you're now you know what the next pass is going to be and so you're processing all of that in real time i i don't see that when i watch him i see a guy that wants to go score and get his bucket and maybe yeah okay you can run ball screen with him because scorers in this league run ball screen but to use the term point guard like this is going to be a point guard one day that's going to be the guy that's like doing both making the game easy for everybody while he's also going out getting 20, 25 at night.

23:31Tim Legler:I don't know that I see him that way. So this to me is more like you want a raw scorer and a guy that's super confident. I look at all that size up front already that Utah has. A lot of your points are good about Boozer and like the fact that connection to the organization, all that. Maybe that matters to them. Maybe it doesn't. And he definitely could play with Jaron Jackson Jr. And it's actually something Jaron Jackson Jr. needs is a guy next to him that can rebound the way Boozer can. Because he's not a big time rebounder. He likes to block a lot of shots. He spends a lot of time on the perimeter offensively.

23:56Tim Legler:He's a terrible rebounder. He's six a game. Yeah. Yeah. But to think they already have Kessler, they have Markkanen, who plays a lot of three. That's like another 6 '10 and up guy to add to the mix to play, unless they had other plans for some of those guys and they want to move them. That's kind of almost beyond my scope of what front offices think sometimes. But I look at Peterson, I think he's just a natural raw scorer. So you look at the top of the draft, first team that thinks they need that, that's who should take them.

24:26Bill Simmons:I think he's a two guard. I agree with you. I don't think he's a point guard. Although I do think that line has blurred over the years with the NBA where it's kind of like, I don't think Shea's a point guard, right? But he is bringing the ball up a lot. But you and I, we grew up with point guards were actually point guards. Their whole role was like table setter, almost like a host on a studio show or something. Their role is just to make everybody better. But in the guard position, there are exceptions to it.

24:53Tim Legler:And you're right, it is blurred more than ever. but there are exceptions to it for guys that are so dominant off ball. I mean, off, off of, off of their ball handling. They're so dominant that they're dictating terms of the defense all the time. And organically shots are being created for people, even if it's not necessarily in their direct wheelhouse. I mean, like Steph Curry would be an example. Is he a natural point guard? No, he's a guy that created so much offense to his movement and shooting. And like the depths to which you had to go to guard them, he created offense just organically by being like Shea with his dribble Brunson even as a guy you know is he a natural come down table set or no but he's so good at breaking you down organically stuff is created around him so you have to be on a certain level if if you're the lead guard let's call it that because some people prefer that terminology if you're the lead guard in the NBA you want to be a contending team you better be so damn good that you because if it's not your natural thing to find that you, that you're creating better opportunities to find.

25:54Tim Legler:Cause you're so talented with the ball. I'm not, I don't know if he's going to be there or not. It's way too early to know that. It's the toughest one because there's a, I mean,

26:04Bill Simmons:if you're going to say out of all these guys, who's going to haunt anyone that passes them up, it's probably this guy. Cause I think he has the highest ceiling of anyone. Like he, the high school stuff from a year ago, which I've talked about on previous episodes is you're just like, oh my God, this, this guy could be like the next guy, you know? And I don't know what happened to him in Kansas. I really get nervous with red flags before the draft. And I say that knowing I have a 21 year old and 18 year old and you watch kids change in real time every six months, every nine months. And all of a sudden you'd be like, wow, my, my daughter is completely different than she was six months ago.

26:42Bill Simmons:This is great. I can't believe it. It's like, she's an adult. So it's so hard. It's very, very true.

26:48Tim Legler:It's so hard to project this. No, no doubt. And it hits all of a sudden. You're just kind of like, wow, that's nice. Right. And it's like, it's like a friend of mine told me one time, we were talking about this parenting stuff. And he said, what you have to trust, like as a parent is that you made those deposits a long time ago. Right. And so in one day, like, wow, it hits. And then you cash in and you're like, Hey, it worked they're a good human being like you know sometimes along the way it's hard being a parent but like i think that's what it is you just trust it and then you're right with some of these players it's the same thing this is so difficult man because of the way that top picks are scrutinized if there's even any indication that you whiffed early it could be overbearing for the player Reese's Shane in Atlanta.

27:41Tim Legler:There's so much at stake. I'm telling you, Markel Fultz is a guy that I was at the Curry camp, the Top 30 camp, the year that he was getting ready to go into his freshman year. And I was watching this guy and the Sixers had the first pick and so all my friends are Sixers fans. And so I was like, man, I was out there in San Francisco and I was working drills and doing stations and putting these guys through it. Coached in the game. They have an all-star game at the end of the weekend. I coached in the game. like Darius Garland was in that game like and I'm like watching Markel Fultz and I'm like man this dude this dude has it like he's got the size he's got crazy bounce like way more bounce than he ever really even got to show to this point in his NBA career like I would watch him after practice they would have dunk contests and I'm watching him with these guys and I'm like this dude is big he's like powerful he's got a shifty change of pace he's got a nasty step back which is required and he's got bounce too so i'm like man and i think going to that market at that time with what the organization had already been through was i think overwhelmed him and he had injuries too that that contributed to it but i'm just saying like these are so important they're so scrutinized more than ever before there's so much at stake for these organizations and you're trying to determine this off a very limited sample size of work and you have no idea what this is going to look like at the NBA level.

29:05Tim Legler:And you just pray that these guys want to put the work into the time because the talent is there. And again, trust your deposits when you draft them. Put the deposits in now, five years from now, we hope this hits. Some guys obviously sooner than that, some guys never. That's kind of where we're at with these top, you know, six, seven, eight, nine, 10 picks. It's tough, man.

29:22Bill Simmons:The only thing I've learned over the years, competitiveness, work ethic. If that's in there, like the top of the top, you're starting out in good shape there. And then the durability injury stuff is the third piece, right? Foltz didn't have that. Some guys come in and then you hear like the first guy in the gym, last one to leave, all that shit. Like those guys, there's a reason those guys become successful. Like you did that finals with Brunson and then Brunson had that great interview after game five where yet again, all of a sudden he scored a bunch of points in a row and he was just like, I just go back to all the work I put in the gym over and over.

30:02Bill Simmons:I just pretend I'm in the gym. honestly, that's what this is about. You can have as much talent as you want, but you still got to work at it. I look at Peterson. But I will say this,

30:10Tim Legler:one last quick point on that. But I do think, in addition to the injury with Markel Fultz, and whatever it was, it was a unique injury, they couldn't really get it. They couldn't get a handle on it. It was like a weird shoulder thing. With a shoulder, and it completely changed his mechanics into something that was unrecognizable. I'm just telling you, being at a lot of those games, and in that building, and being close, and kind of just observing, I also think there was a component of It was tough for him being the number one pick, dealing with the injury. And then when he would go into the game when he was healthy, I think it was like a lot of feeling that.

30:42Tim Legler:All eyeballs on number one pick, that market, that's tough, man. And I think it was, it got to the point where like, they went like, hey, TJ McConnell, we took him out of the rotation at one point completely just because we're like, we got to see if this guy can go. And after a period of time, they put TJ McConnell back in there and the crowd went crazy because it was like, we need a guy that can come out here and contribute for whatever reason he was. And I was so happy for him, actually, when he went to Orlando. He played pretty well when he first got there. And I'm like, man, hopefully he's going to end up having a long career as a productive NBA guard.

31:12Tim Legler:But the number one pick, that was difficult for him from the beginning. The injury on top of it made it impossible.

31:18Bill Simmons:Ben Simmons was another one like that. Pressure, big situations. He had some sort of weird foul shooting thing. Didn't seem like he liked basketball that much. with the Peterson piece. There's some weird agency stuff too where he's represented by team, which also is George's agency and that people think that's why they don't want him to go to Utah. So Memphis might be where he goes. I think Boozer is going to go to Utah and I think Peterson will go to Memphis, but who the hell knows? And then let's take a break and then we'll talk about Caleb Wilson. The Bill Simmons Podcast is brought to you by my friends at FanDuel.

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32:31Bill Simmons:And now your bet can go the actual distance of the game. Let there be goals this summer on FanDuel. Visit FanDuel.com slash BS to get started now. 21 plus select states are 18 plus DC, Kentucky or Wyoming restrictions apply. See terms at sportsbook.FanDuel.com. Game problem call 1-800-GAMBLER. Call 888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org slash chat Connecticut. All right, so if you were the consultant to the Wizards and they were like, hey, Tim, I know you do the ESPN games. We're starting to waft on DeBansa. The owner saw this high school tournament where Peterson scored 48 and looked like he was the greatest player of all time.

33:14Bill Simmons:Is Peterson gonna come back to haunt us? What would you do if you were us? You would just say, no, no, ride the course. Just stay with DeBansa. Don't overthink it. 100 % that you just

33:24Tim Legler:you literally took words out of my mouth that would be what I would say don't overthink this and it happens all the time don't ever think this I don't have really any reservation whatsoever that the Bats is going to be a star in the NBA how long it takes I don't know down the road I mean look that's an organization that obviously you know I played at a long long time ago there hasn't been a lot of stability there for a long time so like it's a situation a bunch of young dudes now look you know, Trey Young saying, you know, opt out. I don't know what that means for them. Is Anthony Davis going to be bought into being there if Trey's not?

33:58Tim Legler:You got all these other young lottery picks. I doubt Anthony Davis is going to want to be part of that. So it's this young group of dudes, all high picks, trying to figure this out together. He becomes the face overnight. So there's certainly some, like, there's not pressure, which is good for some young guys. But it's also, like, being part of something that's bigger and a winning culture, like that's also good for players when they're young and they're drafted high. They don't have all that responsibility on them. So I don't know exactly what that situation is going to look like. But I have no reservation that he is going to stand out.

34:35Tim Legler:Barring injury, I think AJ DeBonce is going to be a star in this league.

34:38Bill Simmons:We agree. That Trey Young thing I read as he opted out and he's going to get a longer deal for slightly less money.

34:45Tim Legler:Yeah, I read the same thing and we'll see. That's my interpretation. I saw other things that were like, you know, he's, he's relishing this opportunity kind of almost to like, he's got something to prove. And, and, and he thinks this might be a good situation to do that. They're going to love him there. I can tell you that if he plays and he does the things that Trey young can do, he's a very entertaining player, a popular player, and he can put up some numbers. And he's going to have a lot of athletes around him playing off of him. So it could be a good situation for him, but to get inside the head of a Trey Young at this stage of his career or an Anthony Davis good luck I don't have enough expertise to know

35:21Bill Simmons:yeah I would assume Davis gets traded Trey Young if I'm his PR agent I would be doing the whole hey Jalen Brunson small guard discounted changed teams NBA title champ why can't that be Trey Young build the right team around Trey could be the Jalen thing I don't think that will happen Caleb Wilson what were your thoughts

35:43Tim Legler:love him I love him man I'm excited about Caleb Wilson and because look there's a dynamic did I say Williams or Wilson no you said Wilson I think

35:52Bill Simmons:I did okay I wanted to make sure I thought you said Caleb Wilson

35:54Tim Legler:Caleb Wilson yeah I'm pretty sure you said Caleb Wilson great love him because there's a lot of things I watch with him and he's got that like eyes pop factor you're like holy hell and so now you look at the way the league is set up and some of the spacing that exists in that league and a guy that's got this kind of just explosive power. Yeah, sign me up for that because I think anything else that you would want to look at his game and if you want to tighten up his handle, if you want to tighten up his shooting, particularly shooting off the dribble, I do think those are things that can be tightened up.

36:35Tim Legler:It's not like for that, you either have it now or you don't. That's not the case. Guys add that stuff all the time in their first three, four years of their career. and then there's a whole other ceiling for them, excuse me, as a scorer. But that's what I'm talking about. That stuff where he explodes off the floor like that, no, that's not something you either have it or you don't. I mean, that is something you either have it or you don't. And he's got it. You're not adding that later, not that degree of pop. And that's what he's got off the floor. And it blows you away because you're picturing him in any sort of open floor situation or even offensive rebounding situations and it gets a step on a guy, like that is what big time explosive finishing ability looks like at the NBA level.

37:21Tim Legler:The other stuff will come. I'm a huge, huge fan of his upside.

37:26Bill Simmons:There's a relentlessness with him that almost guarantees he's going to be a really good NBA player. He just really gives a shit. The work ethic, the competitiveness he has, like he just has it. To me, he's not like a runner jumper. I do think there's like some hoops IQ stuff in there. Like he seems like he'd be fun to play with. And I think if he was with the right kind of guard, point guard, who could be looking out for him and trying to set him up. You know, he's different because Sean Kemp had a different body. But when young Sean Kemp came into the league and you just saw people he was playing against, it was a lot of this, like people looking up as he's going over them for rebounds and dunks.

38:06Bill Simmons:There's going to be some of that. And then it'll come down to whether he can add a shot, which I'm not going to bet against anybody who's super competitive to eventually be able to add an 18 footer, right? Kids 19 when he's 22, he's going to have an 18 footer.

38:19Tim Legler:I'm not worried about it. And I, and I've watched, I've watched him shoot enough in game situations where you're like, okay, it's not like you're watching it going, Oh man, you know, put a, put a, put a disclaimer at the bottom of the screen. Viewer discretion is advised on his release. It's not like that. I mean, I've seen guys with, and it looks decent by the time he gets to the release point, It looks pretty good. There's a lot to work with there. I would be strongly considering taking him. I don't know what the Jazz are going to do. Again, because of how many bigs they have, I don't know if they just want the best available player and they don't care if it's another big or not.

38:53Tim Legler:But if it is Peterson that goes to the Jazz because they just want that, another scorer, to go on the wing, then I would strongly consider taking Wilson a three.

39:06Bill Simmons:So Danny, all bets are off because he famously was going to take Durant that one year if the Celtics got the first pick over Odin. And I think he was the only one who was going to do that. I'd rarely say this. If I was Utah, I would try to flip with Chicago and pick up extra stuff and just take Wilson because he might end up being the best out of these four guys. I don't think there's any way to know. And I don't think you can go wrong with any of them. Maybe Peterson if last year the red flags kind of started to add up. But if you could move back, still get Caleb Wilson and then pick up like the 15th from the Bulls and other stuff.

39:40Like I would think about that.

39:42Bill Simmons:I think Wilson's going to be awesome. And we didn't even talk about this. You're the fourth pick in a four-player draft, basically, before the drop-off. Little chip on the old shoulder. Oh, you didn't think I was the, you thought I was fourth out of four? Okay, I'm going to show you. And I always liked those guys. Nothing like a competitive guy who got passed over.

40:06Tim Legler:I hear you. There's probably a lot of drummers that had a great solo career at some point, but they never got the credit being in that band. That could be the case. So I think that is something. And that's how this has been framed for a while now, that it's these four guys, and then there's a drop-off. I do like some other guys after that. Who's your next favorite? I love Mikel Brown.

40:31Bill Simmons:Oh, my God. I'm terrible at figuring out guys like him. Make the case. You don't like him. It's my weakness with draft evaluation because he's a home run hitter. He feels busty to me, but then he also feels like he could be a five-top-mile NBA guy. And I was like, those guys always scare me. What do you like?

40:53Tim Legler:I don't know, man. I just like the fact that he's a polished, proven scorer. He could just flat-out score. He's got handle either direction. some of the notes I wrote down big time threat every time he touches scores at every level explosive finisher deep range and a lot of potential to grow he's got good size he's not like elite in terms of his size good enough size to get his own shot and I've seen projections anywhere I mean he's anywhere of 7 to 10 like most of the ones I've seen so he's going to go in that range I think somebody's going to get themselves like a big time NBA scorer down the road wherever he ends up going.

41:36Bill Simmons:He's 6 '3 and a half without shoes. He seems like to be the wild bear.

41:41Tim Legler:Fortunately, they don't play barefoot.

41:43Bill Simmons:Well, true. So put maybe 6 '5 and a half with shoes on. There you go. He seems like his range is basically like 5 to 12, which is pretty... That's what's so funny about, like, once you get to that Clippers pick, they don't need a guard, right? They don't need a point guard because they have Garland. They just made this trade for them. and everybody seems to have Wadler and Acuff there.

42:06Tim Legler:Acuff's the guy I was just going to talk about. He's the other guy that is kind of right there in that territory. And he's another guy that you look at, both Acuff and Brown, both of those guys, really flashy scores. They can go get their own. And in some ways, kind of similar in that regard. Acuff, I noticed, seems to me like one of the biggest just consistent jumps up this board basically over the last month or so. It just, and to where I have, I've seen a lot of them where he's going to be the fifth pick. Like he might be the next guy outside that top four. You know, and that is, that's the Clippers with that pick.

42:43Tim Legler:So I don't, I don't know where, if he's going to go that high, but to me, he was a guy that during the season, you come kind of paying attention. I start to dive in after the season, I start to look more at it after the tournament's over. It feel, I feel like to me, he's like solidifying himself on a daily basis. He's going to be somewhere in there. If he's not the first guy taken, he's one of those first two or three after the top four.

43:04Bill Simmons:He was my crush guy in college. I really became infatuated with him and so did my buddy House. We watched a lot of him and then he had to run in the tournament. He's just, every game, he was 26 and nine, 25 and 12, 28 and eight. Oh, yeah. He's a great shooter. he's like a pure old school big guy gets the rebound and looks for him he's like a real point guard give me the ball, I want the ball all the time I'm good on fast breaks I think if you're going to take a guard that high who is clearly a smaller guard who's going to probably be not the greatest guy on defense you better think this guy's a home run and I think he's that good I do think he's the rare He's a lead guard.

43:51Tim Legler:He's one of those guys we're talking about. That's his style. Some of the notes I just, real quick, I wrote down just great change of pace. Like, really keeps guys off balance. Explosive first and second dribbles, which is a big deal in the NBA. Like, that first one, a lot of guys had that first step. He's got one and two. That second gear, as he gets downhill, finishes with both hands really, really well. Like, so he can drive either way. He gets into your body, and he's got, like, creative finishing. Because he's probably learned to. Because, again, he's not 6 '6", 6 '7", coming out. who's in that 6 '3 range.

44:21Tim Legler:So he's had to learn how to be more creative with his finishing. He's a lead guard with outrageous potential. So he would be right there. He might be five. Like him and Brown, they're going to be right there in that category. And Wagler is the other one

44:35Bill Simmons:that a lot of people have there. And Wagler's a tough one to me because we talk about, like we were doing the comps before. I look at Acuff and he just reminds me a lot of Kyrie. I think he's more of a point guard than Kyrie was, but his ability to finish with either hand, how he uses the stop and start stuff, how he gets somebody on his hip and carries them, sense of the moment. It's all stuff we saw with Kyrie. And same thing, like Kyrie was, he might be maybe a half inch, inch bigger than him, but reminds me a lot. I don't know who Wogler reminds me of. I don't know what the roadmap is for him.

45:10Bill Simmons:He's so unconventional. I don't think he had a dunk last year. He doesn't finish at the rim. Everything's like this herky-jerky. and that team was built around just what a unique player he was, but he wasn't a top, I don't even think he was top 100 or top 150 heading into college and had this meteoric rise. But I don't know who he reminds me of.

45:31Tim Legler:One of the things I love about him, because I'm always kind of really honed in on evaluating shooting mechanics and release and how that's going to translate. He's got tremendous extension. Believe it or not, a lot of guys make shots in college and they're going to be drafted in this draft and they don't really extend on their finish. And I think to myself, well, it's fine when you're the best player on the court and you're creating a little bit more space than you're going to create at the next level. You're just not going to be as consistent. Because I think if you don't have full extension now, that's going to shorten up even more as the windows shrink to get the shot off.

46:07Tim Legler:And now you're just never going to be, because it's not a front rims. Wagler has tremendous extension. like he gets full extension and it's quick he gets into his motion quick and he's got full extension elbow lock wrist lock at the same time i look for that kind of thing that's that translates like this is who this guy is that's not going to change he doesn't need to work on that he's already got that he's coming into the league he can make shots now and then now he's climbing because people are looking at him as being more than that like he's more than a shot maker he can do some other things for you as well he's got you know pretty good size as well better size than the two guys we were just talking about.

46:42Bill Simmons:And came through on a big stage, which isn't nothing. I really thought he got in that tournament, him and Acuff both were really great. Part of the problem with this is, so when you're starting with pick five, basically the next four best guys are point guards. Or smaller guards, because Fleming's is the other one from Houston. And as we know with the draft, not everyone needs a point guard. First of all, we have a bunch of awesome point guards in the league already. there's four more it makes me think one of them's not going to make it and then Burris have you studied Burris at all?

47:15Tim Legler:Yeah yeah I have yeah

47:16Bill Simmons:and then Burris is the one who is the best two guard available

47:22Tim Legler:no question about it the thing I love about him better than any of these guys and he had to because he was more off ball than the other three guys and I think we didn't mention Kingston Fleming is that the other guy you're talking about you said the next three you were talking about Acuff and Brown and Wagler and Fleming like those four guys

47:37Bill Simmons:those four guys with Burris so this guy

47:39Tim Legler:Burries is more of, like, what I love about him, you can run pin-down action for him. He comes off down screens, and he's getting his hips turned and swiveling into the catch, and it's gone quicker. So, like, that is, like, another element to use a guy like that. He can create offense off his motion because he's such a threat off down screens out to deep. He doesn't necessarily need to play with the ball first to get into his shot. I think some of the other guys we've talked about, that's just more natural for them for that rhythm. They need the rhythm first. He's a guy that you can put off the ball.

48:12Tim Legler:So maybe his usage isn't as high. Maybe he goes to a situation where he can't have high usage because of who they already have, but he can still go get shots up because he doesn't need a lot of time to do it. And he doesn't need a rhythm dribble or a live dribble to do it first. He, to me, the best of this group at that kind of stuff, getting his hips turned off a down screen and letting it fly from deep.

48:34Bill Simmons:And he's going to be a really good defender. he now he's a year older because uh than some of these guys but um was a big la like he won the high school state title here where he was like the lead guard for that team but i i've said this he's been my favorite guy out of the top four um other than acuff because um it was saying a lot of the same reasons i like castle two years ago because he's on that great arizona team right they didn't really need a lot of what he so he was just like all right well what do you need for me all right i'll do this this and he just kind of figured out how to fit in hit a couple big threes when they needed them play defense do do like all like the nitty-gritty stuff which is exactly what castle did at yukon and then when castle went to san antonio like he was able to and i think burris has that in him he makes the most sense for the clippers my question is you don't necessarily need to take them at five, could you trade back?

49:31Bill Simmons:Could you flip spots with the Kings who everybody thinks they want, Acuff? Could you flip spots with them, pick up one extra asset and then take Burry's at seven?

49:41Tim Legler:You'd have to, I mean, listen, as we know, all these guys were talking about that its beauty is in the eye of the beholder because I haven't personally, a lot of the different mock drafts I've been studying and looking at, haven't seen them really that high. so you'd have to be just one of those things where what you see is like man what he does these particular specific things better than some of the guys we've talked about who like yeah man they got a lot of junk in their game they do a lot of stuff they're scorers natural scorers but we like this specific skill better to take him that high most of the ones mock drafts i've looked at have not seen him as high as five so i don't know where you know he ends up what do

50:18Bill Simmons:you do if you're the clippers though because you have kawaii who's going to be 35 next year you've Garland who's your point guard and if you're taking another point guard you can talk yourself into it and just be like look we're going to be a little unconventional we're going to have these two scoring guards and you know we're not there's going to be some bad stuff on defense but that that's why we have Ty Lue and a coaching staff I just find it hard to believe they're going to do that which is why I feel like they're going to trade back and take Burris would be there's one other trade I love I got to throw this at you this is just in general something i've been watching and you you didn't do the western conference for playoffs this year right did you do the eastern yeah you did these we did the stinky stinky sweep we had we had the knicks just treating people like a wood chipper yeah you had that yeah i don't know what happens with wallace and okc where you have these you have shea and now you just gave maxes to chet and you gave a max to jdub and you have wallace who after the season.

51:18Bill Simmons:It was very interesting. He had a little moment in a press conference where he was basically like, it was interesting when I, or he said something about when Shea was out during that stretch and Wallace had the ball. And you and I talked about this in a pod where it was like, oh. I did a couple of

51:32Tim Legler:games during that time. Yeah, there's a lot more

51:34Bill Simmons:with Wallace here that we didn't really get to see. Then the playoffs happened. He's back to 25 minutes a game. I mean, he averaged eight points a game this season, right? It's year three for him. Alright, well, what's he worth? Because you're talking extension now. After year three, you can extended guy. And if I'm him, I'm like, there's more here. I could be the lead guard. I'm one of the best defenders in the league. I'm a$30 million a year guy. And I don't think OKC is going to play it, pay it. So what about Wallace and the 12 for five? Clippers get Wallace. They move back seven spots. OKC moves up to five.

52:10Bill Simmons:Is that too much?

52:12Tim Legler:You're outside the top four. I mean, I think Is that too much to give up? For that pick?

52:19Bill Simmons:For OKC, yeah. How much do you like Wallace?

52:24Tim Legler:I like Wallace a lot, but they have, to me, in their system and the guys that they have, he's one of the better on-ball defenders in the NBA, and he did ramp his game up a little bit when he got more of an opportunity, but they've also got A.J. Mitchell sitting there. You and I love him, too. Yeah. Right, And he's a guy that's just much more dynamic offensively with what he can do. He hasn't even scratched the surface of how good he is going to be. So I like him, but expendable, absolutely. And this was the problem all along for OKC. Well, not even a problem. It's a good problem to have. They won a title, and they had this perfect system, and they had a superstar, and then they had two and three were really good players, and then they had a bunch of role players, interchangeable, a lot of nights, really deep.

53:09Tim Legler:You're not going to be able to keep all those guys. You're just not going to be able to, and you're not going to need to because of who's at the top. You can find guys, I think, that can replicate what those guys do, maybe have a little bit more scoring punch to them. You know, even look at what they went out and found in McCain, like that move to pick him up and what the offensive punchy game where he's playing heavier minutes than some of the guys we're talking about that were staples for this team for two years. And they picked him up midseason coming off an ACL injury because they identify it better than just about any organization.

53:38so if they looked at that and said you know what we're not we we think that we can move up and get

53:44Tim Legler:the guy that we desperately need we can replace a case in wallace and then who knows at 12 man you can start getting down there it's a crapshoot anyway to go get the exact guy that they want whoever that player may be no i don't i don't necessarily think that is but i again i don't know like do they view any of those guys outside the top four as that i don't know because i was

54:04Bill Simmons:it's almost like a math problem. Like at some point Wallace on a rookie contract is perfect, but now with Wallace, with a contract looming, as you have to pay him basically as like, not even better than a fourth guy. Cause he's, he's probably worth like 25 to 30 on the open market with, with what his ceiling is. They can't pay that. And the whole point of having all of these picks and taking swings and grabbing McCain and locking down AJ Mitchell to this great contract is that you have to build this like cheap apparatus around your three guys you can't pay you know you can't pay while it's 30 million so really the time that trade is now committed to

54:43Tim Legler:the top three something like that right so like you're right i mean it's so you got you have to

54:47Bill Simmons:use him and move up and maybe even then if you have five now maybe it's easier to try to even move up into that top four but it was one i was thinking because if you know i have clipper season and tickets. I want them to at least be decent next year before aspiration annihilates them. If they got Kaysom Wallace and then the 12th pick, I feel like they'd be better off.

55:08Tim Legler:If they don't get into that situation where they're going to move that pick or whatever, which there's no question they're going to listen to all that because they're not in the top four and we think there is a difference there. That seems to be if they see that Acoff's the guy, if that were the guy and they just looked at him like he's better than everything else. And we think, you know, I'm taking the best available player. I don't care that we have Garland and we've got guard play. I don't care. Because this guy ultimately is going to be a guy that can flat out play at the NBA level and he can play quickly at that level.

55:40Tim Legler:And maybe they hold it and they take that just to take the best available player. But, you know, they're like a veteran team. So it's like, you know, you don't know what their thinking is. Like, they're not, they don't have time to develop guys. But that's why they, that's why Acuff

55:54Bill Simmons:doesn't make sense to me because you have Kawhi who's 35. and you're going to play him and Garland. I'm not winning the title with that as much as I like Acuff. Or you have to trade Garland at that point. It just opens up these different doors. Did you study the center yet, Mara?

56:12Tim Legler:Yeah, I was just going to ask you about him because we didn't talk about any bigs really, like real centers. We talked about some bigger guys, but he's different. Here's the thing, man. I watch him. It's so hard for me because even like I go back to a guy like Edie and they're like a little bit different. And I looked at Zach Eady and I was like, I don't, as dominant as he was in college, I don't know how he's going to change into the floor at the NBA level. Like, it's a big deal. Like, he's lumbering up the floor now. It was a turnover. Now you got to get back and run. And like, is he going to be too methodical to do anything offensively?

56:41Tim Legler:He's, he answered this question. First of all, he leaned up. He worked with their player performance team and like even his running stride improved. Everything improved. So it's like, no, this is fine. He can keep up with this and actually do a lot of damage offensively, kind of stays in a limited lane, but he's an effective NBA player. So now I look at Mara, they're different body types. They're a little bit different. Mara's like more agile, certainly. The thing I like about him, I was like watching, like he's got a really, really good feel for like passing, a handoff game, and he can find guys from the elbows.

57:16Tim Legler:He's just really clever with his passing. He's thinking one step ahead. it's another dimension to your team he's a really good rim protector the guy's seven three so he's going to protect the rim and he moves well um you know guys like that there's going to be limitations there offensively you know unless he becomes a really good three-point shooter and then there's more opportunity for you there and even like a guy like Klingen is trying to do that in Portland like he's taking more threes because he knows if I don't I'll never ever get anything other than a rim run lob or offensive rebound so I better learn how to do it can Mara do that can he extend out there.

57:49Tim Legler:He needs to. I'm sure that's probably all he's doing this summer in trying to extend that range. I just like his feel for the game. His IQ, his touch, and his finesse with his passing. I think that translates to a lot of different systems. You can play him. He's going to help make other guys better, particularly if he learns how to shoot the basketball. He just has more upside.

58:07Bill Simmons:I love the passing, too. I like him in general. At one point, I was convinced he had to go in the top 10 because he's somebody I could just see in a playoff series. Then I did some more research. the minutes really scared me with him. So when he went to UCLA, which everybody agrees didn't go awesome, he played basically 10 minutes a game and 13 minutes a game for them in the first two years. Then he went to Michigan. He played 23.4 minutes a game last year. If I'm using the eighth pick in the draft, to me, that means like, oh, I can see he's going to be a big off the bench. Edie played big minutes, had points, rebounds, and was a proven, you can actually put, now he got hurt in Memphis.

58:54Bill Simmons:But I just think top 10 is too high for him the more I look at it. And maybe OKC can get him at 12 and that's a great pick for them. But this draft is so good. And if I have a chance to get somebody like Burry's at eight or nine or Kingston Fleming's, I can't take a guy who played 23 minutes a game last year. I just can't.

59:14Tim Legler:No, it's a fair point. And I think just in general, you're just looking at him and you're going, well, there's other guys that I think you're just looking at offensive upside, you know, three, four years from now is so much greater. It can be hard to justify that unless you have glaring hole, like a glaring need. Like we do, we're so undersized up front. We don't like the bigs that we have. If it's so glaring and he's available and he's in that tennis range somewhere in there.

59:39Bill Simmons:Okay. See 12. That's, that's like the perfect one.

59:42Tim Legler:You can take a flyer on him. Yeah.

59:44Bill Simmons:But like, I don't think golden state can take them at 11 because they need athleticism. They need, they need young guys. They need pop. They need somebody that can kind of tilt their team a little bit. And we don't know what they're going to do this summer with, you know, I still think LeBron's going there. Like who knows? who knows what they're capable of this summer. But this is a luxury pick. I don't think this is somebody you can take in the top 10 with this many good players. And we didn't really talk about Fleming. I can't decide on him, like what the ceiling is for him because he's not huge.

1:00:18Bill Simmons:He's like 6 '1". He's fast as shit. He's really competitive and he's a good defender. But we've also seen those guys, like people really regret taking those guys like seven, six, eight, these six, one guys that unless, unless you have a chance to be one of the eight best point guards in the league, it's just not worth the pick. I'd rather have somebody that I know can play big minutes.

1:00:43Tim Legler:Yeah. I think that that's, look, he's, I've seen him in the top 10, like the bottom two, I closer to 10. I've seen him on a lot of draft boards. Like he's in that area. Some of the other guys I think are clearly more like polished right now. Acuff and Brown and guys like that I think are a little bit different category he's an interesting one because you start getting to that pick and like he's the next most talented guy on the board so I'm curious to see like how that ends up I do like kind of like athletically the way he competes like you're going okay that translates like he's going to be able to hold his own and hang athletically it won't be a problem for him he's right there same category with those other guys

1:01:21Bill Simmons:Atlanta at 8 I actually think point guard makes perfect sense for me for them. Sacramento desperately needs one at seven. Brooklyn needs anything. And then Dallas at nine is a fun one because it seems like Kyrie's going to be back. They have flag. They have a bunch of expensive, really polished swings. They're going to have Lively back. They have Gafford. And everybody has Burries going there to them at nine, which makes a ton of sense to me. But it's when we get to 10, 11, that range, I think, the draft gets.

1:01:55Tim Legler:Burry's going there to me would be an ideal pick, an ideal fit for him. It fits a need. They need guys that can shoot the ball off of guys they have now that can absolutely collapse the defense and break them down as primaries. To have a guy that you can plug in that's going to get clean looks and shoot him at a high rate, that makes a lot of sense.

1:02:17Bill Simmons:Have you done Steinbach work yet?

1:02:21Tim Legler:Did you Steinbach?

1:02:22Bill Simmons:Big, big rebounder, pick and roll guy, like classic in the red spots.

1:02:28Tim Legler:Strong, yeah, I wrote down for him. Very strong in the open court. Dude, sort of bounce off him. Runs well. Athletic. Very, very tough. Yeah, he's a guy that just kind of stood out just because he was just like so physical and so strong the way he plays the open floor with dudes. He's just making space organically as he moves up the floor. Yeah, it's impressed, particularly just his competitive toughness.

1:02:52Bill Simmons:He seems, I'm not 100 % sold on him because I do, I just can't get the Spurs OKC and Spurs Knicks out of my brain. I'm like, where would he have played in those series? But he feels like a perfect Charlotte pick for 14. This episode is brought to you by LinkedIn. For small business, every hire matters, but the time and resources required to hire right are limited. Luckily, LinkedIn Hiring Pro is built for that reality. It's your hiring partner designed to help you hire with confidence by surfacing only the right candidates without turning hiring into another full-time job. Hiring Pro streamlines the entire process from drafting your job to shortlisting candidates and conducting AI-powered screening interviews.

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1:04:37Bill Simmons:Don't miss a moment. Watch the FIFA World Cup Live on Fox One. Offers are subject to change. See fox.com for complete terms and conditions. Alright, we gotta play quickly. I sent you a list of all the favorites for the 2027 title. And it's a good time to think about this because we're heading into trade season in the draft and free agency right now. So just quickly, Spurs are the favorites right now in FanDuel plus 250. And their big question is the Kelden expiring and then they have 20 and 35, 40, 42. So they have stuff to move around and do stuff. You were there. You were in the house for these games.

1:05:22Bill Simmons:They have Fox, whose extension hasn't even kicked in yet. You have a bunch of Spurs fans like, let's get this guy the fuck out of there. It's Dylan Harper time. What do you do? What do you do with Fox?

1:05:32Tim Legler:It's tough because his number is going to be big. I'm not, listen, I don't overreact to the extent. Obviously, a lot of people do, particularly Spurs fans right now, the way they're feeling about the series he had. it's a big moment specifically but the guy can still play um and he's going to be getting a big number he still does um add a dimension with his speed he's a high caliber nba guard that had a terrible finish to his season i don't know that that's going to carry over he wasn't 100 healthy he'll get healthy over the summer um nobody was really feeling this way about him most of the season so it's a terrible way for him to end he's going to be part of the mix here so but But now the question is going to be this, and people that were watching the finals heard me repeatedly, particularly in the last game.

1:06:18Tim Legler:How are you going five, six possessions in a row and Dylan Harper is off the ball kind of hanging out when he was by far, to me, the most comfortable player on the Spurs in that game? And it just in general looks that way all the time. But think about the stakes in that game. You cannot keep this dude out of the paint with one defender. You just can't do it. His shooting's streaky. It'll get there, I think, Harper's. but the thing is he can also make plays for people he's a great defender is it time you go that's our starters we're not going to start all three of these guys is Fox at that number something that's going to be smart to bring him off the bench and be more of like a second unit guy to go get his offense rather than continue to start him and bring Dylan Harper in even though a lot of nights now you're playing him starters minutes doesn't make a lot of sense so I don't know what exactly the solution is going to be clearly this is Harper and Castle going forward particularly the sooner that Harper becomes a more reliable shooter because Castle got better as the year went on.

1:07:16Tim Legler:He was over 40 % after the all-star break. It's still not his wheelhouse and he can be very streaky from there. And Harper can too. That's tough. And if you want Fox a little bit more, a little bit more consistent with his mid range pull up, even with his three point shot, most of the time, certainly not there late for him, but I don't know what the answer is. I just know this is Harper and Castle. Is it next year, the year after whenever is it going to be? I don't think Fox is going anywhere at that number coming off of that series so you better kind of wrap your head around it as a Spurs fan could you feel it being that

1:07:44Bill Simmons:close sitting courtside could you feel Fox starting to waver confidence wise yeah I did I think it was

1:07:51Tim Legler:it was more than just whatever he was going through physically there's no question it's it got here's the thing I'll say about De 'Aaron Fox I've I don't think I've ever seen him miss as many makeable looks for him it's not like this dude was getting draped because he couldn't separate because he was that injured he was getting to his pull-up he was getting open three-point looks he there's little spins that he likes to take he he was getting to that little quick pull-up when he when he said when he gets like a ball screen like at 22 feet instead of 30 and he comes off and he just stops on a dime at 18 feet I mean his release was clean most of the time and so I that told me all I need to know like it's it's definitely in here he's feeling something and now string together with like bad performances.

1:08:39Tim Legler:Now you start to overthink it. I got a lot of respect for the guy. He's unbelievably smart. He's a good teammate. Like we interviewed him a lot during the series. Guys just got a lot to say. That's meaningful as a leader. He had a terrible series, man. And he had some moments that were very difficult for Spurs fans to swallow. I get it. You don't just put this guy out at the curb with the recycling. Can't like, you know, so you can't do it.

1:09:04Bill Simmons:But do you feel like a, I don't know. it's a small piece, medium piece, or big piece of this, is you have this fucking prodigy behind you who deep down you probably know, even though he barely knows what he's doing, is probably better than you at point guard. And you have that piece too, where it's every time this guy comes in, he's swinging the game and swinging the energy of it, getting to where he wants to go, and he's not scared. And the fact that he played 31 minutes a game in that series and Fox played 36, that might have been the difference in the series if you flip after game one that i don't know after game

1:09:42Tim Legler:one ms johnson admitted because they didn't remember that was mostly fox in the fourth quarter harper didn't play much in that quarter and he said basically and he basically ms johnson owned it and he said that was a mistake man you know looking at he's a young coach he's allowed to make mistakes i like the fact that he kind of answered it that honestly yeah i probably need to look at that i didn't handle that well and then it was never gonna he said i was just probably not going to happen again going forward. And what he ended up doing was playing them both together a lot in the fourth quarter.

1:10:09Tim Legler:But the one, the game five was kind of where I couldn't understand. I don't know how many possessions in a row, probably, in that broadcast. How is Dylan Harper right now off the ball? Why is he not the initiator of this? Why is Castle bringing the ball up? Well, even Fox was doing it. Yeah. Because Castle does find himself repeatedly in foul trouble. I thought he looked absolutely exhausted in that game. He had a terrible shooting night himself. Didn't really impact the game offensively at all, which is rare for Castle because I love him. But it got to the point, okay, he looks gassed. He doesn't have it tonight.

1:10:50Tim Legler:He's expended so much energy guarding Brunson. Maybe we got to go with Fox and Harper. Okay, cool. If you want to do that, go ahead. Harper needs to be the initiator because they hadn't figured out a way to keep this guy out of the lane. And they just couldn't do it. And whatever it is, what it is. Here's the thing. You're going to have these three guards next year. And I don't know exactly what the plan is going to be because like you said, Fox is a big number and it kicks in. Harper is on a rookie deal, palatable. But it's obvious to everybody what this guy's going to be. He's going to be one of the major forces at that position in the league soon.

1:11:27Tim Legler:like if not next year the year after so how do you handle that from a playing a standpoint in a like a fit standpoint who's on the court at the same time with Wemby as well so it's a tough decision I'm glad I don't have to make it Harper is going to be the future but Fox is a guy that's a big part of the mix man you can't just get get rid of it he and the guy can still play trust me

1:11:48Bill Simmons:and Wemby will probably have a little say into this too um I mean Harper was I would take him over everybody in this draft. And I think this draft is better than last year's draft. But to me, he's like, I think he has a chance to be one of the best guards of the last 30 years. Like, I really do. I think he's that good. Let me ask you something. I thought the stuff he was doing and how unafraid he was was nuts.

1:12:14Tim Legler:Yeah. It's a big statement. And I like him so much, I think I probably would agree with you. But that's what I know now. So let me ask you. So like going back to before last year's draft, did you feel that way about him then or are we so everybody was so overshadowed by cooper flag it was like we knew that was another pick or are you saying like kind of like what you know now about dylan harper and especially the way he grew late in the year that you go okay kind of know now like what this dude's ceiling is and we might actually be underselling him that's what i'm

1:12:46Bill Simmons:saying yeah because last year in the draft the ruckers season was so weird i didn't know what to make of that. It's like, all right, this team's going to have two of the top five picks and they couldn't make the tournament. Like, what happened? And then you watch the clips. And we talked about him a few times when he came on my pod during the year, but I saw it in the preseason. It was like, oh my God, what's going on with this guy? And then every time he would just jump out of the TV.

1:13:09Tim Legler:And he's got, the thing that surprised me is this, in this particular stage, as much as I already kind of believed, right there in front of my eyes, when I was watching a guy with the stakes that high, with that much pressure, and his game was so physical, the way it was defended on both teams, he didn't speed anything up when most guys that age get any daylight. You're going to rush it. Yeah, he missed the layup in game five. It wasn't because of that. He just missed a shot. He didn't quite extend his arm fully. He missed the layup. That was a big play late in the game. but I'm not, you know, that wasn't because of stress or pressure or playing too fast.

1:13:51Tim Legler:He could play as fast as he wanted, as explosive as he wanted, and then when it came time to control his body and put English on the ball, even with a bunch of traffic at the rim, he was so far beyond his years and his ability to finish under those circumstances with English and reverse layups when you think there's no way he can extend and get there, and he made it look so routine. that I was like, man, it's amazing to me. This guy has arrived at this level this fast in his rookie year. He's like, okay, he's making a statement. Like, this is kind of what it's going to look like for a while.

1:14:28Bill Simmons:And was getting big rebounds. And I really liked his defense. I thought, I loved how him and Castle, that's what made Brunson's series so crazy. I thought Castle and Harper defended him great. I loved everything they did. And Brunson just kind of solved it as the series went along and figured out how to score on him.

1:14:46Tim Legler:Bill, what he did, we haven't even talked to the finals, what Jalen Brunson did in Game 5 against that level of individual defender in front of him. And by the way, it's not just Castle or Harper, Vassell more than adequate. Champagne could do a nice job on him as well. And I know, by the way, if you get past all that, Wemby's back there. To drop 45 points on them efficiently in something that important against that caliber defense defense in front of you. It's one of the greatest finals performances of all time. And, and again, he did it very matter of factly and very routine. And it was so smart in the way he attacked and the way he kept guys off balance, including Wemby a couple of times at the rim where he'd start stopping and Wemby would bump him and then couldn't, couldn't gather to jump to go get it.

1:15:38Tim Legler:And Brunson would just extend because he's not jumping very high and he's 6 '2". and he's just laying the ball in wherever he wants and shooting mid-rangers. It was amazing, amazing, amazing to watch a guy with that kind of composure as a scorer against that level defender when he's not blowing by you or going over you in any way.

1:15:55Bill Simmons:Yeah, I was... You know, terrible. A Bucs fan friend of mine was like, well, you mentioned you said Brunson had one of the greatest finals performances. Why didn't you mention Giannis five years ago? And Giannis had that 50-point game in the closeout, which was a great game. The difference with what Brunson did in game four and game five was the inevitability that you could feel with the scoring. I was texting Nick Franz, like, here comes Brunson. This is it. He's going to score. He's going to go in a heater right now. And the Spurs, by game five, I feel like they kind of knew it too. And he broke their will in a different way.

1:16:30Bill Simmons:That's like that, you know, he's obviously not Michael Jordan, but there's very few players over the years that got to that break your will level. And I do feel like he fucked with the Spurs. Like it was just over and over again. Oh, you fucked up again. We're only down seven with eight minutes left. I'm going to score the next nine. Like it's just worth the level he got to. But to do it against that team, I thought that was one of the most amazing things I've seen in the finals.

1:16:55Tim Legler:It's one of the greatest finals performances of all time. I'm not going to, I'm not going to waver from that. And it's because of, again, what was in front of him. And as good as it might have looked to a lot of people on TV, like in terms of the pressure on him with these defenders.

1:17:08Bill Simmons:Yeah.

1:17:09Tim Legler:Trust me. trust me sitting there watching it to watch guys that big and physical and the game was so physical and they're quicker than him and they're going to beat him to spots and they're taller than him and they're stronger and he just did whatever he wanted to do and it was mind blowing in the moment to be able to call that and to watch that level of greatness when you look at the physical profile of the player and it's all just It's all just strength and balance and footwork and touch and IQ. And then the final component, which is really what separates him, what he is processing and the feeling in terms of pressure of the moment.

1:17:53Tim Legler:It's not what other people are processing. He doesn't feel it. It actually, in some ways, it actually increases his adrenaline in a good way in those moments. And there's been a lot of guys, obviously, over the course of the history of the league that also kind of fall into that category. but in this series it stood out so much from everyone else that he wasn't feeling what everybody else was feeling with this energy and these two buildings and it was like the force and physicality of the defenses and he's just like no i'm just going to kind of do my thing and i know where i'm going to end up at the end of this possession it'll be in a place that i like

1:18:25Bill Simmons:not to mention he's carrying six generations of knicks fans and 53 years of history and just

1:18:32Tim Legler:I got a great and like 35 former players like at every game it was like incredible man I got a

1:18:39Bill Simmons:great email from a listener who was saying that it was almost like watching um when they would talk about pre-fontaine Steve pre-fontaine the the runner how he would yeah he would hang behind hang behind and then he would make his move and everybody knew he was going to make his move and he would just kind of wait he'd let everybody run himself out like okay now I'm going to do it and then everybody he was running against would know that he was doing it and he would still do it. And that's where the Knicks got with these comebacks. I've never seen a team more comfortable down 10, down 12, where you never felt like the game was going to get away from them.

1:19:15Bill Simmons:Usually when you're down 12 in the third quarter, you're like, fuck, we give up one more three. This game's a wrap. And the Knicks kind of liked it. And they liked this come from behind thing where you could feel the momentum shift. And then, you know, we talked about Fox earlier, but the Spurs not having that settle down guy. It just wasn't, you know, obviously, Webby's not there yet. They just didn't have that one guy. Like, I got this, guys. I got this. They didn't have it.

1:19:41Tim Legler:That was my point on top of what you just said was just so true about the comfortability factor for the Knicks. And part of that was because they were observing the uncomfortability factor on the other side in those moments because they didn't have a clear defined identity offensively, either individually or collectively. And part of it is because these guys are growing as players. There are holes in their games. And I think, and I said a lot about it the other day on our All City pod, and I believe it, I think the biggest area of growth for Wemby is going to be answered that going into next season.

1:20:13Tim Legler:And how do you answer that? You answer that by dominating from 15 to 20 feet. Yeah, that's the area of the floor that he doesn't really yet know how to fully utilize his shooting ability in length. And it's in a simple jab step, a Dirk Nowitzki type of closing ability from that area. It's also hard to double team him from that area of the floor. He could play one dribble. He's at the rim from the top of the key easily with his length. But he doesn't really go there and catch the ball. He either runs to the rim or he pops back behind the three. Those are the two things he does. He doesn't really screen short roll, and they hit him there.

1:20:51Tim Legler:Not to mention he's such an easy target to hit on that short roll because you can throw it high. He can just catch it up here. Even if there's traffic for the guard, just throw it up. He'll catch it. And now he's got it one-on-one. Give him some room, one strong side shooter, and now let him practice that jab and get guys off him just a little bit. Boom. Make four or five of those jumpers a game. Couple swing through and goes. And I think the game will be easier for him because he didn't know really where to go in those game-defining, series-defining championship-defining moments.

1:21:21Bill Simmons:He was 30 feet from the basket.

1:21:23Tim Legler:He didn't know where to go.

1:21:24Bill Simmons:Yeah. Well, I always thought that dunking spot, that's where he has to figure out. Like, 12 feet to the side, pick a side, give your bank shot, you can swoop into the paint, do the Dr. J. Agreed. You're a lob threat from the side. Like, that's what he's got to figure out. He doesn't have a spot. Yeah. And it bothers me that he doesn't have a jump hook either. I don't know why he doesn't have a little...

1:21:46Tim Legler:Yeah, I mean, when's the last good, reliable jump hook we've seen? I gave up when I would see seven-footers come into the league with some skill. And I'm like, how do you not practice like a two-dribble to the middle jump hook over either shoulder? Al Jefferson? Because it's damn near on stop. But Al Jefferson had a great one. Even his was more almost like a... It was like a little push one. He almost turned his full body. It was a push, right? Because his shoulders were square to the rim. Yeah. Yao Ming had a decent little jump hook. Yao Ming was like, he kind of mastered that. Duncan had one.

1:22:17Tim Legler:But not to the extent that you would think guys would. And I think for Wemby, I think that's not bad, man. Because look at some of the distances that Kareem shot. It doesn't have to be a five-foot shot. He might have a hard time getting guys that deep. So, okay, what if it's an eight, nine, ten-foot shot? And it looks smooth. And you practice it enough. Who's stopping it? So, I agree. Look, and I think this is what really, to me, separated the two teams. The Knicks going into game five, I said, had the most precarious 3-1 lead in the history of team sports because they'd been outscored 70 % of the minutes in the series.

1:22:55Tim Legler:Everything had gone right in these key moments that had to. So now here you are. They're up 3-1, but man, it could have easily been 3-1 the other way. We all know that. The difference in this series was how these two teams managed the last five, six minutes of the game. Burners were kind of looking around like, what are we going to do this time down the floor? because all their best players have a little bit of a hole in their game. Too young. Not a good enough shooter, maybe, if you're Castle. Wendy, we just talked about, doesn't get those spots on the floor that are comfortable for him enough.

1:23:21Tim Legler:Guess what? Best learning lesson, losing that series. That's the best thing that could happen to them for long-term success here in the foreseeable future because they're going to remember how that felt and they're going to address that exact situation.

1:23:37Bill Simmons:I 100 % agree. And yet, they're going to look... I mean, that's one of the all-time squandered series. No doubt. I even forgot. So many things happened in those five games. So many things happened. I forgot that Wemby missed an 18-footer just to win game one. That was a pretty open shot. You just go through that. Clean look. If you're a Spurs fan, you're just torturing yourself. Gone all summer.

1:24:02Tim Legler:Even like that shot, I said, you know, even that. They ran good action. It was him and Fox. Fox came off. They knew exactly what they wanted to get. High ball screen. They knew you're going to have to give some sort of help or Fox is going to walk into an 18-footer to win the game. So you knew the big was going to shade, which meant it's going right back to Wemby at the elbow. But the only thing I don't understand is this. And Mitchell Robinson, they got a lot of credit for his contest. I don't really think it affected him. But why fall down backwards? Like, you're shooting a shot to win the game.

1:24:38Tim Legler:Right. Stay on your feet and stay with your extension. Because he went up to shoot. Just stay. Nothing else. Stay upright to give the ball the best chance to get over the front of the rim. Your momentum going back to that extent that you can't even stay upright, of course the ball is going to. It's possible to track that to the center of the rim. So that's even that. Again, it's youth. It's young. It's going through it for the first time. Figure out a way next time you're in a situation. and stay on your feet and shoot an 18-footer because there's not a person on the planet that's going to really bother you on that contest if you stay upright.

1:25:16Bill Simmons:Well, he also has to figure out how to play more than 29 minutes a game. Because I think It's true. It's true. 10 weeks, now he knows. Now he knows what that 10 weeks feels like from start to finish. And I just thought there were a couple of those fourth quarters where he was just wobbling around. He made, obviously, the huge mental mistake at the end of game two. and it's all part of the process. He's going to have to figure out how do I ramp up to 37-38 in the playoffs?

1:25:43Tim Legler:And that's it. But it was game two. You know, that's enough. You learn, learn. They got to learn from it. They didn't know exactly what they wanted to do. Castle looks at him and then goes, oh, oh, you're going to bring it up? Okay, I'm out of here. And they all hit no weight. Hits him in the back. It's just because it was like they weren't completely in sync because they're so young.

1:25:58Bill Simmons:Yeah.

1:25:59Tim Legler:Collectively so young.

1:26:00Bill Simmons:Don't bet on young teams. Now we know. Again, this is what we said all year. They're too young. They haven't been there. It's like, I don't know. And here's the thing.

1:26:08Tim Legler:It's what's scary for like, maybe the league is just the fact that, okay, yeah, they lost one series, but like nothing will expedite their learning curve like that. Nothing, no way their season could have ended any of, even losing game seven at Oklahoma city is not coming close to expediting the learning curve with the way they navigated the ends of those games and knowing how tight they were. The margin for error was so slim and the Knicks were making all the plays. They weren't making any of them. nothing will expedite their growth more than the way that their season ended.

1:26:40Bill Simmons:Before we go, where do you want Giannis to go?

1:26:44Tim Legler:Man. Probably Golden State would be like, you know, hey man. Golden State, are they even in this? I don't know, but they always came up for Giannis over the last two years. And it was like, you'd love to see Curry gets something of that level here at the end of his career. That's why I said that. That's more like from just my heart standpoint because I love watching Steph Curry so much and I want a potential for like deeper playoff runs for him, not playing stuff where he's gone in a game or two or even if they make it out of that, what are they facing? A buzzsaw. So more help for him to give Steph Curry a greater chance to have meaningful series and playoff moments at the end of his career.

1:27:32Tim Legler:I like that.

1:27:35Bill Simmons:My guess is they end up with Anthony Davis, Golden State. I don't know why. It's just in the back of my head. I've landed on, I don't want the Celtics to trade Jalen Brown for Giannis. Which I felt that way the whole month, but the more I just, I can't get there. I also don't think Miami... I don't like the trade for Milwaukee or Miami, that trade that everybody's been batting around. I actually don't like it for either team. If I'm trading Giannis, I don't like what I'm getting back. I'm not getting one thing I can point at. And if I'm Miami, I've traded all this stuff away so I can have Giannis and Bam, and I don't know where I'm going with that.

1:28:16Bill Simmons:Can I even win one playoff round? Not to mention the Giannis, like how many more years? The thing that scares me is just how many more years can he be elite when he's already been banged up?

1:28:26Tim Legler:Let me ask you a question. What percentage of the people that love the Celtics fans would agree with what you just said about your cool not getting him because you would probably go with Jalen Brown?

1:28:38Bill Simmons:People like the Jays. I would say it's probably like three, four Celtic fans would probably rather just not do anything and run it back with a healthy tatum. Here's the problem, and here's the question, and the Celtics are going to have to evaluate this. You had Jalen get a taste of being the guy, and now he has to go back to not being the guy. And once you have the taste of being the guy, can you go back? I think that would be the fear. And maybe he just wants his own team. He hasn't said anything. The Celtics haven't said anything. And I would much rather see those guys keep playing together.

1:29:14Bill Simmons:I don't even like that Clay's not on Golden State anymore. Like even that, I wish Clay and Draymond and Steph had just managed to, I know why they didn't and I know it got acrimonious, but it's so rare for teams to stay together. I hear you, man.

1:29:28Tim Legler:I hear you. Like, they have it, and they're winning, and they're fun to watch. And, like, us, you know, guys like us that are watching this and analyzing it and have to do this every night and watch these teams. Like, you're a fan of the group, the style, like, whatever. And it's like, there's more there. There's more meat on the bone there.

1:29:43Bill Simmons:Yeah.

1:29:44Tim Legler:Like, why are we ending this now? I think for me, with the Jalen Brown stuff, I think it's a good point. I mean, and this is kind of how I felt during the year. for me was probably how I would process it if I were good enough to be Jalen Brown and I went through that would be yeah, you know what? Bottom line is, man, I slid over one seat and that's what it looks like. But there's a hell of a lot that comes with that seat. So now, okay, he goes back and it's, you know, obviously I don't think anybody's good tonight. It's more like Tatum's, you know, the guy, Jalen Brown's a great, great player.

1:30:21But at

1:30:21Tim Legler:the same time, he's like, okay, listen, and I rang the bell, man. I validated what my ceiling is, what I believe it is. But it's okay here to be like 1A next to Jason Tatum too because Tatum's going to get ultimately most of that playoff pressure is more on his shoulders than anybody else. And so I do wonder how Jalen Brown feels about all that. Is it like, he's like, no, no, hell with that. I don't ever want to go back. I want a team of my own. I know what I'm capable of doing and nothing's ever going to satisfy him again. Or is it, no, I like playing here. I like Boston. I like Jason Tatum. I showed what I could do when given a chance.

1:30:56Tim Legler:That's good enough for me.

1:30:58Bill Simmons:If they were going to trade him, Milwaukee would not be my Jane Lynn trade. I would be looking at New Orleans or Atlanta and trying to, you know, especially New Orleans. That's a trade that makes sense in my head where you get Trey Murphy back, Herb Jones, one more contract. Maybe you get a pick, but you know, you're recreating basically a different version of what you had with Tatum and Brown, but your contracts are a little better and you get more flexibility. Like, I'd be thinking that way. To me, I don't... Do they win the title if they get Giannis? I just... I don't know if that's the magic elixir.

1:31:31Bill Simmons:And I don't know physically where he is. You know? Yeah.

1:31:35Tim Legler:I would look at it if I were Boston like this. The way that the... Look, the Knicks jumped on it and they played incredible basketball at the end of the year and they peaked at the right time. Yep. But you still have to go back and you have to be honest and just look at the Eastern Conference. Like, the path was cleared for them with the injury to Tatum. And, you know, that was like trying to figure that out late in the year. Know how LeBurton, obviously, the Pacers went there a year ago. Detroit doesn't have enough shooting yet. The Pistons, the Cavs are a team that's got, you know, they've got issues in the postseason, like handling that pressure.

1:32:05Tim Legler:Phillies hurt all the time. So if I'm Boston, I'm just looking at it like, yeah, okay, the Knicks, to me, I've seen a lot of lists out there where they put OKC San Antonio 1-2 again in terms of league expectations to win it. Boston three, Knicks four. I mean, to me, the Knicks have every, have the case to be made that they're going to run it back and win the Eastern Conference. I think they could absolutely make that case. But if I'm Boston, I'm not sitting here looking at any teams in the East and going as currently constructed without the Giannis trade. Like we can't hang with those guys. So I think that's why the comfort zone comes from fans.

1:32:43Tim Legler:We know what this looks like. And it's pretty damn close. And now we get Tatum for an entire year coming off the injury rather than just a partial year, yeah, we'll take our chances of that. Of course, you need to improve your roster. They're going to need to improve, and we'll see what ways they can do that.

1:32:58Bill Simmons:They have a$27 million trade exception. They have some tradable smaller pieces. They'll be better than they were last year. Last year was, they always called it the quote-unquote gap year. But in some ways, it was. They got rid of Howard and Horzingis and Simons.

1:33:12Tim Legler:I'm putting the Knicks as the favorite right now to win the Eastern Conference. You should. I'm putting the Knicks as... But it's amazing. I'm looking at some stuff that's written out there. They're not doing that. I'm like, I don't get it, man. The way that they just played, and like that last series was a grind it out. They fell behind it. They still found ways to win. But prior to that, like, they were playing damn near perfect basketball. And they ended up winning a championship in five games against a team that won 62 with that kind of young talent. Like, for me, the Knicks should be the team that's placed at the top of the pecking order in Eastern Conference going into the season.

1:33:45Tim Legler:Now let's see what these other teams do to address their needs and close that gap.

1:33:51Bill Simmons:Brunson's the best player in the conference. He is, it wasn't just, oh, I had this great postseason. He's done this four years in a row now. He's averaging 29 points a game for four straight playoffs. Like, this is who he is. They have a team built around him. The only thing I would worry about with the Knicks is, you know, Pat Riley called it the disease of more. Everybody's super unselfish when you're trying to win a title. You're doing everything. You put your ego aside, but now you won. um doc rivers i had doc rivers on the pod the other day and he he called it uh trophy tour syndrome you get your trophy for the day you go back home every every day with all your people and you know then you come back the next year and you're like all right now it's my time and that's usually what happens with this with champions and that would be the fear i'm gonna

1:34:36Tim Legler:tell you though i'm gonna tell you i don't think that i don't think that's the makeup of this group of guys there and i've got to spend a lot of time around them yeah um covering them you know all the way through the playoffs basically and certainly the finals they just look like they're perfectly in sync with where they're slotted where they're slotted each guy and what they're required to be and then perfectly fine with this other incredibly special player that they have settling things and will contribute to that heavily and in some nights be one guy more than another i don't think they're going to have that particular problem with this group i just don't think that's the makeup of this team.

1:35:14Bill Simmons:I think you're right. But I'm not positive because this is the league we have. They also, they're not going to be able to pay Mitch, I don't think. Dolan basically said he's not going second apron. So Mitch is out. They're going to have to look out with the 24th pick, get some sort of big man. But small problems. All right, Tim Legler, have fun at the draft. I'm excited for your player comps. Just rip them off. Like boom, boom, player comp. Boom, player comp. Good to see you. Always a pleasure. Thanks for spending this season with us.

1:35:44Tim Legler:Let's catch up when the smoke clears from the draft and free agency and see where everything's settled and all those trades take play, all that stuff. Can't wait. We'll reconnect.

1:35:52Bill Simmons:All right. Take care, man.

1:35:53Tim Legler:You got it. See you, Bill.

1:35:55Bill Simmons:This episode is brought to you by Holiday Inn by IHG. If I'm ever traveling for work, where I stay is so important. I actually really care about this because sometimes I even have to do a podcast wherever I'm staying. In general, I don't go on the road that much, but when I go on the road, I like to be in a nice hotel with a nice room. I'm spoiled. If you sound like me, check out Holiday Inn. It has a whole new energy, especially for business travelers. You'll see it everywhere from refreshed rooms to re-imagined social spaces and dining done right with new drinks and dishes. And for business, there are flexible spaces that work for the way you work.

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1:37:08Bill Simmons:All right, so we're recording this. It is Thursday afternoon Pacific time. There's still some World Cup games happening tonight, but we only care about the one by the time people hear this. Friday, America, who looked awesome. Really, truly awesome in the first match. And now Australia on Friday. It's a holiday. It's going to be a great day. Anthony DiBundo came on a couple weeks ago, and he reminded us, I was skeptical. I wasn't that excited about our chances. and you reminded us, hey, we haven't really been healthy in four years. We have our guys. There is a path here. So you're watching that first half.

1:37:45Bill Simmons:What are you thinking? I didn't think it would go that well. I don't think even the most optimistic US fan in the world thought that it would go as well, as dominant as the first half was. They made it look so easy. This is a country that usually struggles with Trinidad, that usually has had issues beating Panama over the last few years, and they're just washing away a pretty good South American team. So, I mean, it was the most exciting I've ever been. It was my first ever time going to a World Cup game. First time ever seeing the U.S. score a goal in person. Like, amazing, amazing stuff. All the 1v1 stuff, a striker just like creating holy shit goals and then actually finishing the kick.

1:38:23Bill Simmons:It was unbelievable. And even Reyna comes in at the end, right? And the guy from a few years ago where he became the polarizing, like, he became the big argument guy that did the documentary. It was barely covered. But even he had a moment, and he might have to have a moment in this Australia game because, of course, we can't have good things for that long. Pulisic is, who knows? When I see that training by myself story, that makes me nervous. But he was so good in that first half. We thought they took him out because they didn't want him to get hurt in the second half. That's what I thought, too.

1:39:00Bill Simmons:You assume Paraguay would be doing the, okay, we're down 3-0. We're going to start taking your guys out. But it turned out he was maybe a little hurt. So what are you thinking? How worried are you? I'm definitely worried. I mean, there are only one or two players that the U.S. can't truly replace. And he's one of them. And it's funny because I was thinking today, okay, so if he doesn't start, who are the guys that replace him? And there is no like for like. I mean, in a perfect world, Gio Reyna can do a lot of the things, but Gio Reyna has barely played soccer for the last three years. And he has had some good moments for the U.S.

1:39:36men's national team like that last-minute goal. But expecting him to just walk in and replace what Pulisic has done is just not realistic. Then it's like, well, maybe it's Berhalter and they play a little more defensive. That's going to be divisive. Maybe it's Aronson and they go for the pressing. He's not very creative. So all of a sudden, all the excitement. They don't really need Pulisic, though. for this specific game they do, but for the tournament, like this is not their most important game anymore. They need to shift expectations and realize that the later on games are what we really are playing for here.

1:40:12Bill Simmons:Well, you know, so they're going to probably do park the bus a little bit, right? Do some counters. I'll show you. Yeah. Try to do the one nothing final. Try to rope us in. That's what their, their first win was like that. They didn't have the ball a ton, but when they did have the ball, they made stuff happen. So that would be the recipe. You also have Seattle, a great soccer city. Everyone's going to be so fired up. It's a holiday. There's so many good things about this game. And I don't know. I've just seen soccer games like this where it's like, oh my God, we've had the ball. Oh no, what's happening?

1:40:45Bill Simmons:Oh my God. What did you think of Australia when you watched them that first game? Yeah. I mean, it's a classic example of like, does this say more about Australia or more about Turkey? I mean, they sat very deep in a very compact block and just made Turkey send in prayer after prayer after prayer, cross after cross, long range. I mean, Turkey has a superstar player, Arda Gouler, who attempted seven shots, all of them from long range. None of them had a chance. They were really frustrating and really effective defensively. And in this system, in this tournament, those kind of teams can be really freaking annoying to play against.

1:41:22But I do think the U.S., what they showed against Paraguay, shows me that they have new ideas for how to break down this system, but it is so reliant on Pulisic, on his ability to retain the ball in dangerous areas. His ability to keep possession in the penalty area has always been his best skill. And now it's like, well, without him, who's going to be the man that beats the man? Is it Dest? Are they going to start Tim Weah? Is it just Baligan kind of like muscling his way through Australians? Because they're a big bunch in the back too.

1:41:51Bill Simmons:Yeah, Pulisic was so good in that first half. It almost seemed like we were going to get the rare first half sub for their right back. We got to get this guy out of here. He's getting torched. And then he wasn't out there in the second half. So the two guys that make me nervous on our team, Dest, I just wish there was like slightly more there. I don't know. I felt like there was a lot on the table for him in the game I went to. And then Reams 38. Like Australia has a 20-year-old flyer who had a goal in their first game. And I just can't imagine that's not going to rear its ugly head at some point during the Cup.

1:42:26Bill Simmons:The fact that we feel like we're like a great defender short, right? Probably, yes. And I think that's the big question that like Paraguay and maybe even Australia aren't going to test is like Tim Ream for all of his now faults as a defender is still very good at picking passes out going forward if you just let him stand there on the ball and ping passes all over. And he had seven long completions in the match against Paraguay, which is nuts. Australia will probably do a better job of marking Tim Ream they'll probably do a better job of pressing him a little bit better teams will do a better job of that that's where it's like okay can Tim Ream hold up when teams start to press more that's gonna be kind of the stress test that like Paraguay just really never gave to the defense I mean they scored one goal off a set piece but there was at no point any stress on this defense so that's the big question mark but you know I think that's why they're playing a back three it's the idea that if you put two really athletic dudes and Richards and Freeman who cover a lot of ground and who are super smart guys next to Reem, you kind of cover for him as much as possible.

1:43:32Right. You know, and so you hide him. And then, you know, Des is a funny guy because I love Sergino Des. I get why he's easy to be like, he's always in dangerous areas and he often screws it up. But the fact that he's always in dangerous areas means you just cannot forget about him because he will show up in a big moment and create a chance or dribble past a guy And he really did dribble pass players a lot in that game Friday night. It just, the final touch was rough. It was rough.

1:43:59Bill Simmons:Well, the big question was what we got from Richards. And he was awesome in that game. And he passed, basically he passed all the injury concerns that we had heading into the cup right to Pulisic. Where it was because I, did you see that, that stat? Like he, what did he complete? 83 of 83 passes. Yeah. The soccer defender, perfect game. You never see that very often, but he also, he's such a badass the way he carries himself it's really funny he carries himself like he's like a Ravens linebacker or something and he did have a header on a set piece too that came close to scoring I mean he is such a I mean we talk about you know the classic example of like what does it look like when the Americans are finally developing bigger and better talent and like having a center back who starts every week on a good Premier League team just ho-hum goes about his business nothing flashy like that those kind of players are what it's not about having all the superstars in Europe.

1:44:54It's about having more of Chris Richards. Right. Like three more Chris Richards across the line. And that's, you know, that's the perfect example.

1:45:00Bill Simmons:Well, it's almost like when like preparing for the NBA draft right now and doing my whole process and over and over again, you come to the same conclusion, like four days before where you're like, you know, it's really nice. Like swing men who can defend and hit threes. Yeah. It's just OG and you can't really go wrong with that. So like, uh, Merez Johnson now at the Michigan guy. and he's like, oh, he might go 15, 14. Wherever he goes, somebody's going to be super happy with him because that's just the kind of guy that plays. And it's the same thing with soccer. There are these certain guys. With that said, Jedi's probably, he's another one that when you, in person, really feels like the atypical American, just like fucking freak athlete, flying.

1:45:39He's everywhere. He's everywhere. And look, I mean, I know the running joke is like a lot of these guys were not developed in the U.S. Balligan, Robinson, Tillman, you know, like a lot of these guys were not quote unquote traditional homegrown players. And we could do a whole podcast on that, but like Jedi in the premier league is consistently one of the most active aggressive all over the place defenders on that left wing. I remember they played Liverpool like two years ago and he completely shut down like a prime Mo Salah. And I was like, what am I watching? Like this is crazy. And then he also had 10 assists that year.

1:46:13I mean, he, he is, he's a special player and I think he'll be important because inevitably they're going to need more wide production if they don't have Pulisic in the middle. So Robinson and Dest become even more important than they were in the first match.

1:46:24Bill Simmons:And then the striker might be the most talented striker we've ever had. And I like, Clint Dempsey, I think was really reliable, good. I loved how tough he was. And he, I thought was really important just for where U.S. soccer was and where it was trying to go. But this guy, this is different. It's different. It's amazing. And you know, the one thing with him has always been, and I remember, you know, when I first joined the ringer, Bill. We did the Copa America. Remember two summers ago when we were a disaster? Yeah. And Balagan only played like half the minutes because he got hurt. And even you texting our group chat, like, watch how he's moving.

1:46:58It's so different from how the other guys are moving around the pitch. And that's how you feel when you watch him. And no matter what his finishing has always been, he's always had the shots. And the analytics nerds and the scouts will always say, if you get the shots, we'll worry about the finishing later. Just get the shots. And his shot numbers have been amazing in France. And now he's carrying that into, into the U S and two goals. I think he had four shots in the first game. So just amazing.

1:47:23Bill Simmons:Well, like you, I've all I've been doing is watching world cup. I love it. I love gambling on it. I just love that. There was that one game the other night that was on it like midnight Pacific time. That was amazing. What was it? Jordan, Austria, or whatever the fun was. Yeah. It's all started to put together. It was a really good game though, for how late at night it was, but you know, and you, you're just watching all these different guys and the ones that jump out over and over again are like the the left or right back that's just fucking flying up and down constantly and never gets tired or like you know the forward who he's just kind of hanging around then all of a sudden he's got that stop start boom and that's what valgan has like he's kind of lurking looking boom he's he's off but then and then on top of everything else you get to watch what messi did the other night and it's like oh yeah that's and that's the other version of the sport where he's just lemitating above everybody.

1:48:14Bill Simmons:I mean, that was one of the great random sports experiences. I certainly wasn't expecting that to be the highlight of the summer, but it was even up there with the finals games. That was unbelievable. You talking about Messi? The hat trick, yeah. Yeah. He played all the hits. Watching his son in the goal. My daughter was always a striker and we always had this joke called Rufus Goals because our dog Rufus who died 10 years ago. But if you put food on the counter, if you left it for two seconds, he would just kind of sneak over and grab it and go. And so we always talk the same with soccer. Like the best strikers, like they're best forwards, best anything.

1:49:00Bill Simmons:They're always in the position to just kind of jump on the counter and grab a goal. And that second goal he had was my favorite one of the three because he's just kind of over there. He's reading, oh, this might be a rebound bounce. and he's already moving to where the bounce is and nobody's even reacting yet. And he's just putting it in. It's like the easiest goal he had, but he's just a second and a half ahead of where everyone else is mentally. And that's despite the fact that he just, it's so funny when they don't have the ball, right? When you watch him and you see him in the corner of the screen and he's just walking around like it's a Sunday men's league.

1:49:30Like he's just trying to get his steps in. And then the minute he gets the ball. But he's calculating everything. He makes two little runs, one little dart, one dribble, one shot. And you're like, oh shit. I mean, Argentina, in the first 28 minutes of that match, did not have a touch in the penalty area of Algeria. But they were up 1-0 because Messi's like, I don't need to go in the penalty area. I'll score from 25 yards out. Screw that. Why bother with that?

1:49:54Bill Simmons:And on top of it, I mean, the thing that makes the guys truly, truly great, no matter what sport you're talking about, is like, it's performance, but also like performance. It's the artistry of it. It's all these people in Kansas City. It's Mahomes in the luxury suite. And they're all there to see him, right? and that's like almost drives him up to make him greater. Whereas like poor Ronaldo, he's out there and you called it on the pod we did before the cup started, but it's like, yeah, this is Aaron Rodgers, Pittsburgh kind of territory potentially. And it was worse than that because he cost them the game.

1:50:29I mean, he had, I felt like opportunities

1:50:31Bill Simmons:that normal people would make at this level and he just didn't cash in on any of them. It's so funny because a lot of the people that are trying to defend Ronaldo are saying, well, it's not just his fault, right? The performance was bad all around. And like their wingers have problems. Portugal has issues. But it's like what you said. The best strikers always find ways to get shots, to get space, to make those little runs, those little movements where they can get separation and get shots off. That's just always been true. And that wasn't the case for Ronaldo yesterday against Congo. He was never able to separate.

1:51:04He's not running in behind. He's not coming short. He's not linking the play. it's like hopefully the cross finds his head because they had a lot of the ball and a whole lot with it. But I mean, a couple of days ago when Mbappe scores twice and Haaland scores twice and Messi scores three times all in one day. And then like you said, we get the Austria-Jordan midnight. I mean, it's one of the greatest days for stars in the history of the World Cup. And we get four games every day and then pretty soon it's going to be six games a day for a few days.

1:51:33Bill Simmons:And you didn't even mention the England game. Kane was incredible in that game. doing these 40-yard fucking dart passes. I got to watch that one with CR. We were enjoying it. And then in the corner kicks for England, I mean, I know that was the guy was on Arsenal. That was one of their calling cards, but nothing really floats my boat. Like just a great corner kick right in the box. A routine. They ran a pick and roll. Just like fucking boom. And the guys are wide open over and over again somehow. And it's the most underrated part of this. But there's no other. What else is like this? It's almost like maybe special teams in football where Belichick was trying to get like advantage with special teams.

1:52:11Bill Simmons:And it's this thing that it's like, oh yeah, and you should be good at special teams. And he's like, no, actually we're going to like flip games with special teams. That was one of the biggest reasons the 0-1 Patriots won. And these corner kicks, free kicks, you see it over and over again in the World Cup. Like putting the ball in the box in the right areas and doing the little... Boxing out the keeper. Yeah, it was... John Stones literally set up. If you go watch the replay of that goal, John Stones is setting what would be called a moving screen for the NBA just so he can get Kane free a little bit and all he needs is a couple yards, one header, 2-1.

1:52:42It's so funny because I watched with the Foscast guys, Ben Foster, and they're awesome. And getting into the psyche of the English fan, I mean, you were with CR, so how was CR feeling before the match?

1:52:54Bill Simmons:Confident. He's a little worried about the back three. But they have a lot of firepower. They do. They really do. They have all kinds of ways that they can create goals. And they're really fun to watch. I think if you're an England fan, it's weird to watch this team that can be kind of explosive. But they feel a little bit explosive. Right? So with the FOSCAST guys, none of them were that confident. I talked to a random England fan outside of SoFi. He was like, yeah, you know, I think we can make the semis. I'm like, you don't think you can win? He goes, no. Like English fans, I think more than maybe any other fan base.

1:53:26And maybe because they've been so close yet so far. they just don't have the same level of irrational optimism about their team so a lot of nervous energy and then Kane misses the penalty and they're all like oh shit here we go again this is how it's gonna go the rarely seen callback they nailed the goalkeeper never happens he was about a half of a toe off the line nothing you can't get away with anything anymore but and then in the second half they went for it I mean England fans have been crying out for this they have so much talent they play scared under Gareth Southgate. It's all like, defend the lead, defend the lead, defend the lead.

1:54:01And Tuchel went into halftime and said, F it. Like, we're going for this. What do we have to lose? And they came out and played an incredible second half. So I think England has vaulted themselves into the favorites conversation if they weren't already there. And I think, you know, them, Spain, and France are still a tier above. But maybe USA should be in that second tier. I don't know.

1:54:19Bill Simmons:One thing they did, England, that I loved, I love the hockey line change for the forwards. It's one of my favorites. You can't do it if it's like a Premier League team probably, but if it's the World Cup and you have a deep roster and a bunch of awesome guys, it's just kind of like, hey, we're going, you guys go all out last 20 minutes of the game and they were able to get one but that was fun. Who was the best team? What's weird about the World Cup is like Paraguay might actually be good. We just got to go early on them, right? And their whole strategy is like, you know, they want it to be 0-0 after 70 minutes and all of a sudden they're on their heel, all of a sudden it's 2-0 and like their game's blowing up.

1:54:57Bill Simmons:I don't know if they're good or not. So we've only seen, you know, 90 minutes of each of these teams. But who really jumped out to you? France, for the last half hour, put together, they showed a ceiling that I don't think any team has. And, you know, they made some tactical changes. The first half was embarrassing. They were terrible. Michael Alisse, who is one of the best players in the world, was just kind of standing out on the wing all alone. Like, hey, hey guys, I'm over here. And then the coach was like, all right, let's move you centrally in the second half. Let's get you involved because you're our best passer.

1:55:29And then the whole game changed. I mean, he's dribbling by pass guys. He makes the pass to Kylian Mbappe for the first goal. He just changes the game. And it's like, well, you know, France, you could do this from the first minute. You could play like this all the time. But Deschamps is like, we like to defend. We don't like to press.

1:55:46Bill Simmons:Well, the halftime was funny. Thierry on Ray at halftime was fucking sullen. It's really interesting. These halftime shows with the, you know, they just gravitate toward just famous guys from different countries. Oh, it's great. They're so bitter if it's 50 games. Well, he almost couldn't talk. Zlatan might kill Lawless by the end of the tournament. I don't usually like to watch, but now I kind of feel like I have to watch because I never know when Zlatan's just going to start throwing haymakers at Lawless. It's been an interesting tournament for the Fox studio crew. If you watch the body language, and I bet on these shows, Zlatan is like, you know, Lawless is here.

1:56:27Bill Simmons:Zlatan's like this and it's almost like he's turning his back on him. It's really nuts. It really is. It seems like he despises him. Who knows? I don't know. And then Landon makes the comment, right, about how he felt France was, quote, arrogant in the first half, which, you know, I thought there were tactical issues more than their effort. And then Lawless tried to back him up and repeat it. And Zlatan has this incredible moment where he's just like, and by the way, it's not arrogance. It's confidence. It's confidence. And I'm just like, what is going on? These guys are going to, this is uncomfortable.

1:57:02But it's also electric at the same time because Zlatan does not give a shit. He doesn't care at all.

1:57:08Bill Simmons:Yes, usually the studio shows should feel like people were invited at a dinner to sit at the same table together because you knew the conversation would be good. The Fox studio shows, they feel like it was a dinner where everybody pulled numbers out of a hat. It's like, oh, I'm at table 18. It was a lot of times over there. And then there's just like no chemistry at all at the table because they've never, ever hung out. I had the plus one in that France game with the underdog. I forget. Senegal. Yeah, Senegal. And then they got it. They got the goal. And then Mbappe fucking like a minute later killed it.

1:57:42Bill Simmons:But the World Cup, there was a day where, what was it? Four draws in a row? It was like$100 ,000 if you bet$100 on the parlay. The 2026 redrawables World Cup edition. Yes. Unbelievable. Yeah, that was fun. Okay. Not all draws are created equal. I mean, Cape Verde drawing Spain. That was so... I only saw the second half of that game. The guy was levitating over the goal, just blocking shit. He was doing a VSP. He's up to 7.5 million Instagram followers. Yeah, that was great. After he had 50 ,000 before kickoff. He's 40 years old. And then apparently the department, the Secretary of State, they arranged for his mother to get a visa so she can make the trip for the next game so she gets to see him live.

1:58:24The World Cup is a really cool thing because these random pop-up stories just come out of nowhere and all of a sudden we're enthralled by it.

1:58:32Bill Simmons:Well, the number one thing that happened for people in my life was Scotland taking over Boston in the best possible way. And it was just a week-long love fest. Everybody loved them. They were just drinking and walking around and having a great time. Basically drinking all the beer out of Boston And it went so well that they announced there's going to be some sort of partnership between Glasgow and Boston. The Boston mayor announced today, like, we're going to actually try to figure out some sort of thing. It was really amazing because Boston's pretty Irish, you know, but that's pretty Irish. Yeah, I was going to say, I didn't know how the Scots were going to go, but the Scots were like, hey, we love drinking, too.

1:59:12Bill Simmons:And from that moment, it was on and they really took over the city. So that that was really fun. All right. So tournament, we're doing this. It's Thursday. There's two games left today. France is now plus 410 on FanDuel as the favorite. Spain's 5-1. England's 6-1. Argentina's 8-1. Portugal's plus 950. I'll book that bet myself. Brazil, 11-1. I didn't think they looked great either. Nope. And then it kind of goes on down. You were, you know, there's a couple of those middle teams like Morocco. I think U.S. is now in that. US is down to 40-1. That maybe there's more there than what we saw in the first game.

1:59:52Bill Simmons:But that top four feels like the four, right? France, Spain, England, Argentina. Yep. That would be my four. So if you had to cram one other team into that four, who would it be? Germany. Okay, Germany's way down there. They're 14-1. What'd you like about Germany? So we didn't learn a ton about Germany when they played Curacao, right? Germany traditionally is a flat-track bully. They like to pummel the teams that are a little bit lesser. And they are built to do that. The reason Germany's odds are so low is that if they win their group and France wins their group, they will play each other on the 4th of July in Philly in the round of 16.

2:00:33So we have this clash of two, what I think are top five teams. And I would put Brazil and Portugal in the kind of figuring it out phase. potentially playing each other as early as the round of 16. France could then also play semifinals against Spain. So Germany's path will be very, very difficult. And I'm not really sure if their defense is good enough. Is that a possible what's finished second instead of first situation? It is. It is. That's hard to engineer.

2:01:00Bill Simmons:Yeah. Because then you don't really know where you're going to end up in the bracket and things get a little bit weirder. And like, you know, France is going to play Norway on the final day. So would they tank it? I can't imagine that. I don't think they're thinking that far ahead. But it would probably be wise to if you were Germany. We'll avoid France. Thank you very much. But that would be a fascinating matchup. I just don't know if Germany's defense is good enough. It's been their problem for multiple cycles. That's why they haven't made it out of the group stage the last two World Cups. But they have an incredible manager.

2:01:30They have an incredible attacking group. They can score on anybody. They're going to be in the mix.

2:01:35Bill Simmons:Yeah, because US is in this situation where if they finish first, they play the runner-up from B-E-F-I-R-J. I don't even know what those teams are. The third place team, right. If they finish second, they play the runner-up of Group G, which is Belgium, Egypt, Iran, and New Zealand. I mean, that sounds great. Exactly. I mean, I'd rather finish first, obviously, but even finishing second, that sounds like an ideal situation. So if they come in second, though, here's where it gets trickier. Your round of 32 game is probably easier. But then in the round of 16, it's probably Argentina. Oh, God. So we would prefer to avoid them.

2:02:15If they get first... Maybe a little tougher round of 32 because the third place teams, I mean, who knows? It's too early. But the round of 16, you could potentially play Belgium, who showed a lot of cracks in their first game against Iran. Or against Egypt, rather. So you're like, well, now we're talking. You get Belgium on home soil, revenge for 2014, Chris Wondolowski revenge game, the Tim Howard ain't walking through that door game. And you beat them. I mean, if you put betting odds up right now, I don't think they would be huge underdogs at all. I think they'd be close to a toss-up with Belgium.

2:02:48Bill Simmons:If you knew Pulisic was 100 % healthy right now, and he's obviously not, but if he was, if we were just healthy right now, what's the ceiling for you with how excited you would be to final four, final eight level run for this team just off that one game? It's literally how far can we go until we have to play France, Spain, England, or Argentina? That's it. It's quite frankly a matter of like, Like, okay, there are levels to this game and the U.S. is going to need some luck to beat one of those teams. And I don't know if I trust the defense and the goalie enough for that kind of challenge, right?

2:03:25That's where Paraguay doesn't really test you. So we're going to have to find out. But yeah, like if they're in the round of 16 against Belgium and they win, why not? And then maybe there's an upset and instead of playing Spain in the quarters, you're playing Uruguay or Colombia. Then it's like, well, we'll take our chances there. So I think it really comes down to the draw. It's too early to say, but just on performance alone, it would be hard to not say the US isn't playing in sort of that back end of the top 10 range because the Dutch looked just okay. Belgians looked just okay. Like none of those teams are jumping off the screen.

2:03:56Bill Simmons:Not at all. On Fandle, USA to make last 16 minus 220. Quarters. Did you bet with us last week? Well, that was the minus 130, right? Yeah. So that's minus 220. I didn't. I didn't want to have any money on US. I just wanted to enjoy it. I didn't feel like I needed to add, but I might actually go in on that if they finish first in the group that game. Quarterfinals is plus 180 and semis is plus 550, which is... I mean, think about that. That used to be 12 to 1. Betting odds are saying we're roughly 37 % to make the final eight of the World Cup. It's not that far off. So where... Do you know off top of your head where the last 16 in the quarterfinals games would even be?

2:04:44Bill Simmons:I guess we would know because of the group's yet, but is there a way to have any idea? Yeah, so if they win the group, their first knockout game will be in Santa Clara. That would be the first game. And then once they won that, they would play in Seattle July 6th. No, we're going once they win that. I like this. Okay, you're doing the Jalen Brunson. When they win the first round of 32 game, they would go back to Seattle on July 6th for their round of 16 game. If, now we'll go if, if they won that, they would be in the quarterfinals July 10th back at SoFi. So July 6th, Seattle. Normally an absolute dead time of the year for sports where all the NBA free agents have signed.

2:05:31Bill Simmons:Wimbledon is still, we're getting near the end or... Yeah, we're almost at the end with Wimbledon. holiday weekend we're right at the point where we're we're wondering where all the really fun tennis players went that's around July 6th like oh man wish we had like two more fun tennis players like Serena and Venus Williams we talked about that the last time you were on and they were playing doubles we're gonna see Serena at the US Open I wish I wish that was a fan of that if she comes back I actually would my wife would want to go to that we love we're a big Serena house so I that might be this was before you were born but the the two great moments of and i used to love tennis but uh mackenroe at the open and connor's at the open were the two runs where i felt like the crowd just kind of grabbed them and grabbed them by the neck and pulled them through some of the points in the sets and i the serena thing would be this the crowd would be can you imagine playing against her in the u.s open like like you would have to be one of the best five players in the world like locked in.

2:06:37Bill Simmons:I don't think anyone else would be able to beat her. I had the luck, the absolute all-time luck box of my friends and I decided one year we're going to go in on Friday night tickets on Ash before the draw, before Serena said, we bought those tickets and it ended up being Serena's last match. Oh, wow. We got to go to see her play Isla. That crowd was the coolest tennis crowd I've ever been a part of, even when she came back and she won the one set. and it was like, holy shit, she's going to win again. Then she loses the third set and it's kind of sad. But like the whole crowd, the euphoria of that night was one of the most special nights I've ever had as a tennis fan.

2:07:17So the fact that we're going to do it again, like four, what is it, four years later?

2:07:22Bill Simmons:It's the only thing in tennis you're allowed to do from a non-sportsmanship standpoint is if it's a situation like that. If it's the old lion trying to hold on, it's just understood. The crowd just gets to root for them and cheer when you double faulted and all that shit comes into play. Otherwise, no. Well, the USA thing will be amazing. And then you were in New York today for the parade. Sort of. Just right up there. You were in the office. I was technically around. You were in like where everything was starting, right? Just the entire city? I made the mistake of not thinking ahead. I was like, I want to go to New York.

2:07:58I'm going to watch England with the Foscast guys. I have a couple of friends I wanted to see when I was in New York. So I got together with them last night. And then this morning, once I got to the office yesterday, people were talking about the parade. I'm like, oh, where's the parade? They're like, oh, it's coming right down this street. I'm like, you got to be kidding me. Yeah. This is going to be an absolute madhouse tomorrow morning. So I managed to get in and out. I saw parts of it. And I was very happy to kind of escape.

2:08:23Bill Simmons:What was the madhouse on a scale of one to 10? Like a nine? Like I said, it's not my team. So nor were the Eagles, I guess, when they won. But I compare it to that in the sense that when the Eagles first won, I was in Syracuse at the time. And I was the only one that had a car of my freshman friends from Philly. So I was like, okay, I'll drive home. We drove home at two in the morning. We get there at 6.30, 7 o 'clock. People are already drinking. By nine o 'clock, you can tell people are already drunk. And it's just a huge party for something that had been so much time in the waiting. So I'm so happy for all of my Knicks friends.

2:08:56And now I'm back to disliking the Knicks again. Glad they had their moment. Happy for them. Was rooting for them.

2:09:01Bill Simmons:it's over. It's one of only like maybe 10 excuses to just be hammered at 10 in the morning. Yes. It's a very short list. In New York, it's like the Big East tournament and the Knicks. Football tailgates are great. All right. So give us your USA predictions before we go. I am predicting... Okay, go ahead. No, go. Australia. For this specific game? No, just give us your updated predictions. Okay. US is going to make the quarterfinals and lose to Spain. That is my official prediction. they are going to win their first two knockout games, get to that quarterfinal, and then, you know, maybe Water finds its level and they were like, okay, yeah, like there's a gap here.

2:09:40Like their midfield gets a little exposed. Their defense, trying to watch Jedi against Laminia Maul would be really fun. But I think Spain gets past them. So that's my official now prediction. However, like, I think they're going to win the group. And a draw tomorrow is not a bad result. On Friday, if they get a draw against Australia, they keep control. They stay in first place going into the final match. Ballistic stays healthy. Maybe he gets the night off. That's fine. That's okay. It's not the end of the world. It will kill some momentum, but in the grand scheme of the tournament, it's fine.

2:10:07I'll take it. We move.

2:10:08Bill Simmons:All right. Dabundo, good to see you. Enjoy the game tomorrow. Have a great weekend. Go USA. All right. That's it for the podcast. Thanks to Tim Legler. Thanks to Dabundo. Thanks to Gajal and Eduardo as well. I'm going to be back on Sunday. Going live on Netflix at some point during the day. I'll tweet out the exact time. Go USA. I'll see you on Sunday.

2:10:37I don't have feelings with them On the wayside

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