NBA Lie Detectors, Duren’s Future, Tomlin’s TV Splash, and a 2026 Sports Media Check With Kirk Goldsberry and Bryan Curtis

25:00Bill Simmons:felt like a slight dig at Embiid like just a little Embiid's never gotten out of the second round very pointed that it was the second round here's what I thought was interesting about this why didn't he say I didn't come here to lose in the conference finals because the way this is phrased I didn't come here to lose in the second round so the conference finals if he loses that's okay I just thought the second round thing was weird I didn't come here to not make the finals or something like that. But this second round, I thought it was odd. It was even weirder because he said, I didn't leave my family behind or something along those lines.

25:32Like he was very emotional. But I think he really thinks this is one of the best teams in the East. And I think it gives him the best shot of winning. And ultimately, I think if we asked him, Bill, about why he chose Philadelphia, he thinks it's a superior place to win basketball games than Cleveland, which I think was the other big choice for him. I know he thinks very highly of Tyrese Maxey, Jalen Brown. are personal friends of his. So I think he thinks this is a great team. And I don't read much more into it than that.

26:05Bill Simmons:I don't think the Cleveland thing worked out because they couldn't get rid of Harden. The Lakers didn't want him. San Antonio and OKC didn't want him. And the Knicks won the title. And Philly turned out because of the Jalen Brown thing. I would love to know if Jalen Brown, if that hadn't happened, would he have gone there? But we'll never know. Next one. Draymond Green on LeBron. said he passed on the Warriors. He couldn't get over the past, quote, which is, I battled these guys over and over again. What is that going to look like for me if I sign there? What type of beating will I get if I go there?

26:38Bill Simmons:That's why Jermon thought LeBron didn't go to the Warriors. So Ana, do you believe? I actually believe this. I think this was the reason he didn't go to the Warriors. I think that, and I think it stacks with the previous point. I don't think he thinks the Warriors are going anywhere. And, you know, Jimmy Butler is banged up. Stephen Curry, is he 37 or 38? Whatever. We saw the Porzingis news this week. You know, and this is a Western conference that has two juggernauts sitting at the top. That you're not passing. And Nikola Jokic sitting there in third or fourth. Anthony Edwards. It's just a harder path.

27:15As much as the East has improved, I still think he just didn't think the Golden State Warriors were going to make a lot of noise come April and May.

27:22Bill Simmons:It was noticeable that Embiid is in much, much, much better shape, too. I don't know if LeBron, how much he had to do with that, but Embiid looks like the guy from eight years ago. When he's good, as you guys saw, the Boston Celtics fans know exactly what we're talking about. If he can put it together, he is still one of the top five players in the league. If he looks good, he looks incredible. And he can't sustain it. So we'll see. I've yet to see it, and you make this point better than anybody. How many games does he play every year? Yeah. You know, his body breaks down. He has bad luck, but.

27:58Bill Simmons:Being skinnier will help him not get injured is my expert take. How about this? Just emulate what Tim Duncan did. Well, let's do it. And I love what you said earlier this week. Just play once a week. Like, I don't know if they're going to be able to get away with that sparse. But yeah, like with the depth they have with LeBron James, Jalen Brown, Tyrese Maxey, Vijay Edgecomb, he can sit out. back-to-backs. They can still win games against decent teams if they program Joel Embiid's usage and load management. I think that we could see the LeBron effect for Embiid actually being sustainability for that dude.

28:36Bill Simmons:Next one is a tweet from John Krasinski, who does an excellent job covering the Timberwolves. Yeah, he does. Tim Connolly says he's, quote, super happy in Minnesota. He's entering the last year of his but notes he's had opportunities to move and has stayed. Says he's focused on winning here. Do you believe him? I think he wants to see what happens with this crazy Lamello risk that he took. And I, for one, am very cynical. I don't think it's going to happen. I don't think it's going to work, if for no other reason, that Lamello Ball's never going to be healthy to play 82 games. I think it's the most sort of underreported thing about Lamello is his own injury history, his ability to stay upright.

29:15and again in the context of a brutal western conference you can't have any kind of mess-ups tim connelly deserves a lot of credit for building a team uh two teams in the western conference that have been very good over the last decade um so i could see him going elsewhere if this thing falls apart i didn't believe that tweet he said he's had opportunities to move

29:37Bill Simmons:and has stayed you stayed because you're under contract and you couldn't move to the other opportunities so i just don't believe it i think the lamilla ball trade was was uh a hail mary to some degree where you're just basically trying to game the variance of a ton of three pointers and take some pressure off ant and you're going to cross your fingers and hope it works um i and i said at the time i thought it was an overreaction i thought the reason that they didn't succeed like the way we we maybe thought they would it was because they had a ton of injuries at the wrong time yeah ant-man was on one leg like let's not forget it yeah and the Randall thing got weird because they were trying to desperately trade everybody in February for Durant and whatever else.

30:19Bill Simmons:Next one Tyronn Lue quote I wouldn't want to be at any other place this is my first I'm a zero out of ten I don't believe this. There's no way you wouldn't want to be at another place I'm going to guess you'd be at 20 other places He hasn't been this happy since he was looking up at Allen Iverson's crotch when he was getting stepped over in 2001. That is the biggest baloney sandwich. I think we heard at media day and that's saying something, Bill, like this is such a bad situation. And now Brandon Ingram appears to have some really bad injury. He's a partially torn to kill his. So there's, this is the Clipper fans I know are like, so that is this why they got more than maybe it seems like they should have for Kawhi.

31:08Bill Simmons:because training for a guy who was injured and has a partially, first of all, how do you have a partially torn Achilles? Right. Yeah, I think it's like a small tear. But is that something that comes out in the physical that could have slowed down the trade? Is that what you're getting at? I don't know. Or do you, the Raptors didn't know? Yeah, I need to read more. They didn't know he had this injury? They just figured it out. He was, said at the end of the year, he was hurt last year. yeah anyway i mean that but yeah so i think i'd put tyloo with tim connelly right these are two really high caliber tyloo is a great coach i'm not throwing any shade at him um and tim connelly too like these are very marketable player or people in in the nba if they choose to go somewhere else i think they both will jason tatum quote they're asking about what it's like to have your own team.

32:04Bill Simmons:It's not a simple thing. Like this is my team. Now it's not just saying it's my team. And I'm not going to say that I've got 14 other teammates. I'm going to lean on and we all need each other. So this is going to be his tactic all year being like, this is not the Jason Tatum show. This is not my team. I have a, I have a little newsflash for Jason. This is your team. They built the whole thing around you and they traded Jalen Brown to make it your team. So So whether you don't want to admit it or not, this is your team. Well, as one of the joys of my summer, Bill, was to be a guest, I would say, in the third chair of the colonoscopy pod.

32:41And it was just electric to be a part of that BS history. I'd turn it back to you. I know your fans want to hear you riff more because I know you've come around on Paul George. Yeah. What are your thoughts on Jason Tatum finally being the alpha dog? I mean, I know you've talked yourself into this trade, but can he be an effective leader?

33:01Bill Simmons:Well, I had no choice but to talk myself into the trade because they made it. I do understand why they did it. And the Paul George, I don't know. He's kind of sucking me in with his quotes. This place is great. I wish I had gotten here sooner. I was like, okay, Paul George, twist my arm. I understand why they did it. And we didn't have this information during the infamous colonoscopy pod, which I'm sure for you, the colonoscopy pod in the Ohio State game being in person for those, probably your two highlights of 2026. Yeah, definitely. We didn't have this information, but Brad Stevens basically admitting we took that group as far as it could go and we had to do something.

33:42Bill Simmons:And he said it in so many words in multiple interviews that I did not feel like this was sustainable anymore. And that's why they did it. and he had less value than they thought. And I agree. I think the second apron, which we brought up earlier in the context of Jalen Duren, I think is a huge part of this, and Brad referenced it. The more I've thought about it, and he said it exactly something to the effect of, we can't have this much usage tied up and this much of our cap tied up in two guys. And I think that's fair. In a league, though, where depth is so important that you can't achieve depth if you have a Jalen-sized contract and a Jason-sized contract stacked on each other.

34:25Yeah, you're looking at it. Oh, go ahead. Yeah, it doesn't explain bringing in Paul George, who has basically the same amount of money due to him, but for one or two less years, right?

34:34Bill Simmons:That's why I don't know if it was a... I mean, it was a salary trade for that third year, and he's an expiring next year. So you're looking at this year only, plus he's an expiring. I think they looked at it, and you add up the stats of those two guys, and how much they'd have to both have the ball, what that comes at the expense of with the rest of the team. And they thought, you move Paul George and Hugo and Shireman, give them a lot of those minutes, and you spread the rest of the stuff out, and Tatum's going to do a lot of the usage stuff that Jason did last year, and that this was the only way we were going to have a happy situation, I think is where they landed.

35:10I don't know if they're wrong. And Paul George, one of the most underrated part of his games is he is a knock-down catch-and-shoot player. He can play off the ball really well, and he's content doing so.

35:20Bill Simmons:Switches on D. Yeah, he doesn't. Smartest defender on the court. Maybe have lost a little step in his mid-30s, but even the Sixers were raving about this dude's defensive leadership and his ability to perform on that side of the court. So you can talk yourself into it. I'm happy to sort of endorse that. This is from Anonymous from Media Day. Ben Simmons is cringe, cringe. He's lucky he's fine. Zach Levine is cute, but his personality fucking annoys me. It just seems like he's a prick. Hot mics, baby. Oh, man. Only the Kings. If we did a draft of like, what team will this happen to? What team will have a hot mic controversy?

36:01Bill Simmons:The Kings somehow, even though there's 30 teams having a media day, you just would have assumed it was the Kings. Electric group text moment, that going around. And yeah, like Zach Levine got, I think, thrown under the bus a little bit. by one of the media members who's anonymous. But I feel bad for anonymous Bill Simmons. I do not. Oh, this is a good sec. If the craziest shit I said were caught on a hot mic, it would be a terrible day in my career. We all say stupid things. Some of us get caught. And I feel bad for anonymous. Shout out to anonymous. As far as I'm concerned, you're forgiven. Shout out to Andy and I'm anonymous.

36:44Bill Simmons:J.J. Redick, quote, there's a reason we wanted a lot of these new guys on our team. They offer something different, and we feel like the pieces really fit. Hmm. I'm like a three out of ten on that one. Yeah, they sent a lot of resources to get Walker Kessler, another person with severe injury issues. A lot. Who's unproven. They have a lot of offense, and now they are doing this with Matisse Theibel. Can you please be our shutdown defender? Because if you're not, we're in a lot of trouble this year. I think they're in a lot of trouble anyway at the point of attack. And we've talked about this on the show before.

37:26But if you look at the Western Conference guards, who you're playing on a nightly basis, the idea that Austin Rees and Luka are both on the court, while you're talking about Stephen Curry or Anthony Edwards or Stephon Castle or Shea Gilgis-Alexander, They're going to be able to pick on something there. And that remains a bright red flag for the Lakers.

37:47Bill Simmons:John Moran on starting. Quote, I think winning is the most important thing for me.

37:57Bill Simmons:I'm going to say he wants to start. I think he wants to start. And I think he probably should start to start the season. I mean, he has a very high ceiling as a player. And there is a world, and you and I have been around this league a long enough time, for a redemption arc here where this guy gets his shit together and starts being an all-star, an all-NBA player. And Chris Vernon is losing his mind in Memphis. But, yeah, I think Portland, who showed some signs last year and has an awkward offseason story here where Tiago Splitter leaving, the coach getting a one-year deal from Minnesota to come over.

38:34It's just an awkward situation. But it could all click. We'll see.

38:39Bill Simmons:We got one-year deal, but they gave him a food card, apparently, for like a$300 limit every month. Three chicken tenders on game day. $300 limit. He can take himself out to lunch every couple of weeks. Oh, man. This might be my favorite. John Horst, Bucks GM, on extending Gary Trent Jr. He's an elite shooter. I think one of five or six players to shoot and make the amount of threes he has as a reserve over the last couple of years. Only 27 years old. was big for us in playoff moments. So there's a big belief in Gary for what we think matters, and that's elite shooting in the NBA that's hard to find.

39:15Bill Simmons:John Horst. Wow. I'm going to give this a zero out of 10. Do you believe? Maybe a minus one. That is a CYA statement, I think, would be the technical term. But yeah, some murky stuff at best in Milwaukee with the Gary Trent Jr. stuff. And if you look at the game the way I do, Gary Trent Jr. was a, that's the player he was describing three years ago at 24. I co-sign it. Uh, but it has been very bad the last two years. And in fact, his efficiency is a catch and shoot player when Giannis is on the court and those opportunities aren't going to come anymore was very disappointing over the last two years.

39:52So kind of, uh, I'll just say it was a surprising contract that Gary Trent Jr. Got not surprising.

39:59Bill Simmons:If you knew they agreed to it a year ago, 36 % shooting threes last year for Gary. I'm pretty sure there's some guys that did better than that. Uh, John Horst is like, please, by the way, here's my, here's my, my, my Bill Simmons question. I was talking to some students about this earlier. Are we, is the new, the new kind of cheating? Like remember we went through the doping phase with Lance Armstrong and all the baseball players. It feels like we're in a new era of cheating bill, where we're just talking about financial crimes on the show all this time. And it came through like Manchester City today.

40:32It just got absolutely leveled. And so now we're talking more and more about freaking financial crimes. Thanks to Pablo Torre, Manchester City, this Capsburg Convention story in Milwaukee. I'm already sick of it, but I feel like we're just warming up.

40:49Bill Simmons:Yeah. But the thing is, everybody was doing this forever. The reason Joe Smith got caught was because they found a contract that they all fucking agreed to and signed that because of the agent. Yeah. The agents like the agency he was represented by dissolved and they had discovery. And that was the only reason they found that. Yeah. Um, I'm not naive, but I'm just also like, don't want to be doing podcast appearances where I'm talking about like the securities and exchange commission and committees looking at financial fraud for the next 20 years. To me, the joke's been made by everybody, but the punishment should be, you have to pay Gary Trent for your 64 million.

41:24Bill Simmons:Like we we've decided that's what you got to do. Darius Garland quote the vibe is immaculate right now that's his media day quote I'm a 1 out of 10 on that one yeah that's I'll go 0 out of 10 because this is on the heels of the Ingram News what is immaculate about the vibe they've lost their owner they lost their GM they traded for a guy who now has a partially torn Achilles their over under in Vegas is 20 and a half wins and a big chunk of their fans are really disappointed slash despise everything that happened and can't believe they have to watch this team all season. Yeah, I think, yeah, it's well said.

42:05And did you get an update on your season tickets? Are you able to get out of those? Not an update.

42:11Bill Simmons:Not an update. And by the way, I have not heard anything for two weeks. And now I'm going to have to pull some stuff. I don't know what that means, but I don't think the vibes are immaculate. Well, the thing is, if they're not going to take my tickets, then that means I will go to the games. I will just say that. Joe Dumars, quote, this is D 'Astro Dumars why he didn't do a lot of moves this summer. I don't know if you noticed, but the Pelicans weren't good last year and then just brought everybody back. You can't be reckless with your aggression. I am not going to do a deal just to do a deal.

42:51Bill Simmons:So we can say, yeah, we did a deal. And it's not even something you really like. If it's not really that good for us, why do it? I'm like a 9 out of 10 on this. I think he actually believes this. Right. He's like, I'm not just going to do a deal to do a deal. But the alternative is, well, you're bringing the same team back that sucked last year. You realize that, right? And the pieces don't match. And you just gave Sadiq Bey$55 million for reasons that remain unclear when you have a bunch of... And then you also paid Ben Matherin. what are you doing? Andy has very attractive trade pieces to your point.

43:30We've talked about Trey Murphy for what, two years, three years in this context? Herb Jones for 14 million a year or something? Yeah, so I think a lot of us are bewildered at the state of the Pelicans. And I think we look at a team that has some talent but clearly isn't going to make a lot of noise in the Western Conference. So it's almost a what do you have to lose situation here? Like what, what is Joe Dumars like truth serum? What is the ceiling of this basketball team in his head, Bill? Do you, do you think Joe Dumars believes the new Orleans Pelicans could be a play in team? Do you think he thinks that could be a four seed?

44:06Like what is driving his reticence to make some of these moves?

44:10Bill Simmons:You probably talk like if we were running the Pelicans, you probably talk yourself into Zion, like it's Stockholm syndrome at some point. you do a lot of if only if we can just get Zion going and oh Zion he said that did you see this quote he said and you talk to yourself in the reality of if this guy has his head on straight he could be a top 25 guy in the league so we got that but we haven't seen it and he's been in the league since 2019 I don't think it's gonna happen yeah I'm with you on that one I don't think he has the same athleticism that he had when he came in the league. So we'll see.

44:49Bill Simmons:Aaron Gordon, quote, when we have all our guys, we're still the best in the league. I admire that he said this and I admire his conviction. But even when they have all their guys, they're not the best in the league. So I'm going to have to, I admire that he would say this publicly, but I don't, deep down, he can't believe this, right? Can I respond with a stat? Yeah. So for the first time in NBA history, players 30 and over played less than 20 % of minutes last year. It's something I've been thinking about. You actually got me on to looking at calf strains and hamstrings, which I think is very relevant to Aaron.

45:29I think every basketball nerd loves Aaron Gordon. Everybody roots for him to be healthy. But the combination of aging bodies and the way we're playing this game and how frequently the league is insisting on making these guys play, I agree with him. If everybody's healthy, that's a very hard team to beat. But you've been saying it for years. I've been coming around to it. It's like, I just don't believe that this is going to happen. Like, show it to me. And it's been how many playoffs in a row where he just can't stay upright. And it's a bummer.

46:00Bill Simmons:And then Murray ran out of gas last year in the playoffs. And he's had catastrophic leg injuries, too. I just think once you're snakebit, It's really hard in this grueling NBA schedule to sort of get back into your full capabilities, especially when you're on the wrong side of 30 like Aaron. But that said, I agree with what he said. If they have a perfect health team and you're playing one game to win a championship, I might take the Denver Nuggets. That's a hell of a team. The problem is we play 100 of these things by the time we get out the title. Right. Rui Hachimura on why he joined the Clippers.

46:41Bill Simmons:Quote, one thing everyone says about the Clippers is how well they take care of players.

46:48Bill Simmons:Technically true. Very true, man. I don't think he's lying. He also, this is a Law Murray tweet. Rui mentioned that he is looking forward to reuniting with former Washington Wizards teammate Bradley Beal. All right, Rui, you pushed your luck with that one. Yeah, that's a lot. of a reunion thing. But maybe it's true. Bradley seems like a great guy. Was it really miserable in Washington? And then when the Lakers traded for him, they only had to give up a second round pick because nobody knew if he was any good or not. And didn't he disappear for an extended period of time to Japan? Yeah, and the Wizards didn't seem to have any fun during that stretch he was on the team.

47:27Bill Simmons:Oh, speaking of Zion, quote, I'm not where I want to be. I'm just not where I need to be. And I'm not where I want to be. Yeah. we agree Rudy go bear quote. The vibes are great. Sometimes I have to turn off the group chat because it's buzzing too much. Hmm. I think that's just an old guy. Well, they went to Paris and he showed them around and I do think the vibes are good. And I think the Randall thing was bad last year. I think when he was really mad when they, he felt really betrayed when they tried to trade him and his name was in all the rumors. And I think from the moment that trade deadline happened, that team had a weird energy to it.

48:05counterpoint yeah who did they also send away uh to get lamello um i think their guy and i read yeah and i yeah fan favorite culture driver yeah i'm really worried about the absence of naz reed in that group uh in that organization too and i know a lot of wolves fans uh and people around that team are too um so it's not just you got rid of randall and you have this party vibe You lost Nas Reed, who is the third most popular Timberwolf player of all time, Bill.

48:38Bill Simmons:My note to the T-Wilves fans is as follows, because I think we all want to watch this team and we're all excited about it. Just take the regular season carefully. You're going to have a couple nights during the season when you score 152 points and you make 28 threes. And it looks awesome. And you're definitely going to have a TNT night. Oh, they don't have TNT anymore. An Amazon night, a Peacock night. where you just light somebody up who's really good and the potential of the, the running gun and the threes, and it's just going to look great. Yeah. I just want to see, can my low play 2000 minutes?

49:19Bill Simmons:No, but is that, is that a lot to ask 2000 minutes? It is for a guy. And when you talk to people around Charlotte, 2200 minutes would be a miracle. Yeah. so i think that's why they charlotte one of the reasons they got off of him it's not just this sort of i think it was the reason they got off of him they didn't they didn't feel like he could hold up i think that's right and so same thing with aaron gordon i don't like to say this but the older i get and the more i analyze this league like these dudes are some of them are very fragile and you have to sort of factor that into your predictions and your analyses luka donch had said on Walker Kessler, I really wanted him.

50:01Bill Simmons:I do believe that's true. He also said on LeBron, it was kind of sad, you know? Playing with LeBron was amazing. There's a lot of things I learned from him and we all know who LeBron James is. We spent time together. It was amazing. I think that whole team was ready for LeBron to go. If you read between the lines of the media day thing, I don't think he was really happy for most of the season. And I think they were just kind of stuck with each other and then they had to all jockey to pretend whatever but i don't i think i think him reeves jj they're all fired up for the post lebron era was my take yeah and the and the mark walter stuff and i've had all sorts of craziness in that organization over the last few i mean getting luca in the first place at a team where he that wasn't really built for him um was uh it was a whole sort of just big bombshell move and then yeah the LeBron Luka thing was never meant to work out but I agree with that I think I told Zach like I think Luka has a ton of pressure on him now because this is 27 year old Luka Doncic you Isaac Mahoney everybody thinks this guy thinks the world of him but he's 27 and you know better than anybody is the sports guy like 27 28 29 those are the years and now you're in LA it's your team what are you going to do that's a lot of pressure for Luka Doncic Luka, 36 points a game on Fando, 5-1.

51:31Damn.

51:32Bill Simmons:Nobody's done that. Only a couple guys at Harden did it. Did he get to 36? I thought he got to 36, yeah. 34 was like plus 150. Speaking of Luka, his teammate Austin Reeves talked about this year's team and said, we'll do different things we weren't capable of doing last year. We'll be able to play more free-flowing basketball. it's not going to have to be pick and roll every single possession. Huh. Man, did they get a new coach? No, still J.J. Redding. I wonder what's different. Nikoli Jokic, quote. One more thing on the Lakers. I just want to go on the record here in September before we get to the Jokic quote.

52:11The problem for Austin Rees, it's not at the offensive end, buddy. It's on the other side of the court.

52:17Bill Simmons:Nikoli Jokic, I'm going to sign next year if they want me. That was his future at Denver. I believe that. I don't think he wants to play anywhere else. I thought that was the biggest quote out of media day, Bill, because people have been speculating. He is a private guy. Everybody loves Nikola Jokic. Obviously, Denver wants him to stay there forever. But there was real smoke starting and the gossip machine starting, and he's not somebody who just says anything. So there's no guarantees there, but knowing what we know about Nikola Jokic, I feel like that was the biggest news of media day and great news for Nuggets fans.

52:57Bill Simmons:I 100 % agree with you. The number two biggest news was Cade Cunningham said about Jalen Duren, that's my brother. Made me think of Stephen A. Smith and CR doing the Stephen A. Smith impersonation. That's my brother. Kawhi said he learned last year with the Clippers that, quote, he needs pressure and needs a winning situation. yeah I think that's true Kawhi I mean had the most interesting media day I think uh from the awkwardness and he sort of was happy and in a vibe that I don't really associate with Kawhi like grinning ear to ear almost like Magic Johnson grin on his face I was like what is going on um it's ridiculous I don't know where it came from and nobody can figure it out but I'll tell you this dude I think Toronto won 46 games last year I think they're one of the best defenses in the league they have a great coach if kawaii has a chip on his shoulder and i know for a fact that dude loves basketball and he does want the bullshit to leave and he just wants to play basketball yeah and if this move to toronto really clicks and this dude can play 60 games the toronto raptors are a very interesting team to watch in the eastern conference so um i thought his media day was fine it's just weird right i'm not doing over unders with zach and house for two more weeks but toronto really jumped out to me i thought it was too low was like 46 46 or 47 it was somewhere in there but to me that's a 50 win team yeah they just have too much length and too much defense I don't know if it's going to translate to you know winning three straight playoff rounds or anything but they're going to be an absolute bitch to play with all those dudes that's a team on your calendar you're like oh no you and Mahoney had a great nerd king Justin Herbert segment and I texted you guys after the podcast last week and I was like we definitely need a nerd king for the NBA.

54:50And I think, for me, I said it's Chet Holmgren, but I also think Kawhi Leonard has a sneaky case here too because the advanced stuff for Kawhi is so insanely high. The same exact numbers that made Jalen Brown look so bad in that discourse. If you look at Kawhi and things like estimated plus minus, he's number three in the league, number four in the league. The nerdy stuff still points to this guy being one of the most impactful players in the whole league when it comes to winning basketball games. obviously he has to stay healthy, but when he is out there, he could be the best player in the Eastern conference.

55:24Like, I know what that sounds like, but he is that good at this phase of his career. Well,

55:32Bill Simmons:his old team, the Clippers, the acting GM, whatever it is, Trent Redden, he said, you know, talked about Clipper fans. We hope to fulfill our promises to them and build their trust. Good luck. Ben Simmons. had a... really got passionate about it. He said, quote, all these people talk about I don't love the game. That's bullshit. I love this game.

56:03Bill Simmons:I know he's had some physical stuff, but the way he handled himself the year after the Atlanta series with the Sixers, I think speaks for itself. Well, let's do this. Who loves the game? like I know when I think of guys guys who just want to play no matter what right guys who want to hoop I feel like Durant loves the game Durant is number one yeah there's gonna be footage of Durant just playing in some parking lot pickup game when he's like 48 shoot yeah there's certain guys you know you know they love hooping yeah and I think I think LeBron loves to hoop no question I don't think Ben Simmons likes to hoop I I don't think he does it's the wrap on him until he proves everybody wrong who's coached or played with him.

56:46Bill Simmons:He doesn't like basketball that much. Bradley Bale on taking number three. Oh. Quote, it's no disrespect to Chris, Paul. Chris and I are amazing friends. I asked the team if number three is available. They talked about it. They came back and said, we'll do it. Have you talked about this on the show before?

57:09Bill Simmons:If you're giving it up, you're not giving it up to Bradley Beal, is my take. You're not giving it up. I mean, you're a Clippers season ticket holder. Who are the two or three greatest Clippers of all time? He's one of them, but, you know. What do we do with those numbers? This is not like... He played there for six years, never made a finals, had a lot of disappointing things. I can see both sides. I personally think his numbers should be retired, but what do I know? They don't have a retired number. They haven't retired a single number. I think Bob McAdoo, I would retire Bob McAdoo. I'd retire Chris Paul.

57:42Bill Simmons:I'd retire Blake Griffin. I would not retire Kawhi or Paul George. Yeah, on the list of things the Clippers fucked up this year, like the Chris Paul relationship is somewhere in the middle of that long list. Yeah. And I, for one, yeah, I mean, I think six years in an organization that's starved for any kind of legacy like that, count me on the side of like, what are you doing giving that to Brad Beal? That doesn't make any sense to me. I'm sorry. Last one, Michael Porter Jr. Quote, my goal is to definitely be the best off-the-ball player in the NBA. I thought that was the weirdest thing I heard at media day.

58:16Bill Simmons:I don't even know how he decided that was his goal. He realizes he's playing with Agor Demmon and Mikael Brown. What does he think is going to happen next year? Julius Randle? Does he realize what's going to happen with Julius Randle? he's another one like Paul George that I think the casual fan doesn't realize just how fucking good this dude is at catch and shoot threes. Yeah. And he is off the ball and that's why he was so great next to Jamal Murray and Nikoli Okic. But you're exactly right. I mean, Julius Randle's going to be doing a lot of this. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. But he's going to have to be on ball too in that environment in Brooklyn because there's not a lot of there's not a lot of options in that offense.

59:00Bill Simmons:Brooklyn. okay kirk goldsbury anything else before we go uh no that's it i think that uh we should talk briefly about the vegas thing uh because that oh yeah let's do that yeah so they said between 12 and 13 which means 12. they also said the arena was involved which is between two and two and a half so the number is where everybody thought it was gonna be it's gonna be nine and a half there's three groups i learned nothing they're gonna pick between the three groups they staggered seattle hoping one of the two losers with the Vegas bid will then talk themselves into Seattle because the number's not nearly high enough.

59:37Bill Simmons:Yeah, and that's why. I learned nothing today. Well, we learned that they don't have the Seattle number, I think. Not even close. We knew this for two months. They're not even close. So they're going to go 31 teams. And I think staggered, I think, is how they're going to go. And Minnesota probably moves to the East. Yeah, Minnesota moves to the East. maybe you have 16 East teams, 15 West teams for, or. Oh yeah. I don't know when they would do the move, right? Because yeah, that's interesting. 16 West teams. Yeah. But yeah, that's interesting. I know you've been following this Vegas thing for a long time.

1:00:13I remember when they first started talking about it, the number was like five or six. So it just speaks to how quickly these valuations have changed. But yeah, the NBA obviously wants a new building there. For those who have been to the NBA cup, the T-Mobile arena is not. I don't get it. I think that's what it's still called.

1:00:28Bill Simmons:To me, it's an insane number. And there has to be, there has to be, I'd never, I haven't studied the part of this where can you fill the arena for 350 days a year? And if you own the arena, is that just a crazy amount of revenue? The Warriors did this when they built the Chase Center and it seemed crazy how much money they spent on it, but that thing's a cash cow for them. So they were obviously right. So maybe that's the feeling with Vegas too. It's not just a basketball team. and you get all the other stuff too. Yeah, and that's a city where they need that stuff. So yeah, it's a real estate play.

1:01:02I'm a little bearish on Vegas as a long-term sports city, but it's going to be exciting. And I think the more interesting thing for me, Bill, is what will they end up doing with the expansion draft as soon as next summer we could see players being peeled off of the other 30 teams' rosters to go populate this new team, which is going to be really fascinating for us to go through.

1:01:24Bill Simmons:So if it's nine and a half just for Vegas divided by 30, that's basically like a$315 million check to every single owner. Matt Ishby is like, can you wire it to me? Any chance I can get that this week? Mark Walter is like, can I have that now? I'll drive to the office. Yeah. It's not bad though, but that'll be interesting. Do you have a preferred nickname for this team? Have we talked about that? No. I'm just assuming it's going to be terrible and that they'll overthink it and they won't do something relatively simple. Do you have a preferred nickname? I love the Knights. I don't think they can do it because the hockey team is that.

1:02:13But I think the hockey team did great there and they didn't lean into the cards or the gambling or whatever that sort of cliche might be. But I don't know. I'll be a little more optimistic than you. I think it could be cool. Maybe they lean into the desert nature. But yeah, it's going to be fun just to see a new NBA team pop up and brand and expansion.

1:02:32Bill Simmons:I like that they're moving into cities that clearly can support an NBA team. At least Seattle, we know we can. Vegas, hopefully. But I still don't think it solves the problem of some of the other franchises that they currently have. I agree. They're just kind of looking the other way with that stuff. Anyway, Kirk Goldsberry, Good luck with the rest of the Texas season. I hope you have your mustache for the whole year. We're going to take a break. Come back with your guy, Brian Curtis, right after this. And now it's time for Sports Power Weekend presented by Mazda, which has been named Consumer Reports' safest new car brand.

1:03:05Bill Simmons:It's true. All right, so what sports are we looking forward to? First of all, we're heading into October, which I think is the single best sports month of the year. Sometimes I decide it's April, but usually it's October because of the World Series, college football, NFL, NHL's kicked off, basketball. There's always a good UFC thing. If you look toward the end of the month, I think it's October 24th. There's no football on a Saturday, but there's UFC, college, all the other sports are in play, World Series. Anyway, this week I am the most excited for the NFL because we have the London game going all the way through to the Sunday night game.

1:03:45Bill Simmons:It's 14 straight hours of football. I hope I can handle it. Anyway, there's driving and then there's driving with peace of mind in the Mazda CX-50 hybrid, which comes standard with a suite of proactive safety features. So confidence isn't an upgrade. It's a given. Mazda, move and be moved. Consumer Reports does not endorse products or services. Visit MazdaUSA.com to learn more. This episode is brought to you by TikTok. When you watch a football game, you follow the ball, right? Well, there's a video on TikTok where this guy says to watch the players without the ball, watch the routes and the action away from the play.

1:04:20Bill Simmons:I'll change how you see the game. And guess what? He's not wrong. That's the thing about discovery on TikTok. One video can change the way you see the game. You can learn something new or see things in a completely different way. Your next discovery is waiting on TikTok. Visit TikTok.com slash discover more. This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. Whether you're racing to build the biggest sandcastle, seeing who can throw the fastest pitch or competing in a championship match, It's always better when there's a prize on the line, like a Michelob Ultra, smooth, refreshing, and so satisfying after all that hard work.

1:04:52Bill Simmons:Superior's worth playing for. Michelob Ultra, Superior Light Beer. Enter for a chance to win Superior Soccer, Basketball, and Golf Prizes at Michelob Ultra.com slash superior access. Enjoy responsibly. Copyright 2026, Anheuser-Busch. Michelob Ultra Light Beer, St. Louis, Missouri. Somewhere out there is a Chevy truck. And the person who drives it, well, that's a Chevy person. You probably know one, your buddy, your sister, ones who always show up. They're the first to rise, the last to leave. They always have that little extra something. And maybe you've got it too. Chevrolet, together let's drive.

1:05:34Visit chevy.com slash trucks to explore the lineup.

1:05:40Bill Simmons:This segment is brought to you by Uber Eats. My old, old, old friend and colleague, Brian Curtis is here. We've known each other since the 1890s. He hosts the Press Box on the Ringer Podcast Network. He writes pieces for us. Rumors of other stuff may be coming. I don't know if, maybe, who knows? Something down the road, maybe, possibly. I have a lot of media stuff for you. And I want to start with Mike Tomlin because this is the first time I've been excited about a football studio hire. You tell me, since when? When was the last time we were like, wow, halftime's coming? I shushed my wife at halftime of the Sunday night game and upset her.

1:06:27Bill Simmons:But I was like, Tomlin's talking. Just give me two minutes here. And she's like, it's halftime. I'm like, no, no, Tomlin has good stuff. I want to hear this. Then she got mad. You didn't feel that way when CBS had Russell Wilson? I didn't. or Matt Ryan. I didn't. These are some of the most exciting people on the planet, Bill. I don't feel this way really with anyone who does this, but yet with Tomlin, Tomlin before that Rams game, Rams Broncos Sunday night, like spelled out what was going to happen. He's like, I think the Broncos are in trouble. Sean McVay, blah, blah. And they were up 16, nothing at one point.

1:06:59And he seemed like a genius, but he forgot to factor in the altitude.

1:07:03Bill Simmons:Anyway, they're using him really, really well, really, really smartly. And it almost like Southside Sunday night, It makes me mad he didn't do this sooner. I agree. And I'll tell you what I loved, especially about halftime on Sunday night. Two things. There was one person there with Maria Taylor. There weren't four people. Yeah. We weren't doing the pregame pass the ball around the perimeter thing where everybody talks for 15 seconds. And as a viewer, you're like, what did you just say? And nobody listens to anybody. It's just you wait your turn and you say you're 15 seconds. They're not like actually interacting.

1:07:36You never have a conversation. No. You never get deeper into anything. And that's my second point, too. What he did at halftime sounded like a football podcast. Yeah. If you remember, he was talking about Cowboys Ravens, and he was like, hey, end of the game, Cowboys are in this defense. Umbrella coverage needed to be in it.

1:07:54Bill Simmons:Yeah. Exactly. And they were in man-to-man. And then he went to the commanders and talked about their offensive coordinator and the plays he was calling in that great game down the stretch. And I was like, you know, the thing that has killed pregame shows, halftime shows, and everything is a football podcast. because even normies like you and me, we're not crushing all 22 on Monday morning. But we know way more about football just by osmosis than we did 20 years ago. Right. But these shows never changed. They never met us halfway. And I'm watching Tom and I'm like, that's the kind of point we would make on the Ringer NFL show on Monday morning.

1:08:26And you and I'd be sitting there listening and go, ooh, that's an interesting point. I learned something.

1:08:30Bill Simmons:Yeah, it's weird. They try to keep the old infrastructure of how they used to do stuff. and they're just going to go down with the ship for the rest of eternity with it 90 % of the time. Like I was on the East coast on Sunday night. I mean, on all weekend and on Sunday morning, got up early. It's that first time in a while. I'm like, fuck, the games don't start until one o 'clock. It's pouring rain out. I can't even go walking. I'm like, all right, let's put on the ESPN show. And it's just five guys interrupting each other, laughing at things that aren't funny and doing the whole thing. And I'm like, how are we, how are we still doing it this way?

1:09:04Bill Simmons:The cast just keeps changing, but it's the exact same show. And I agree with you. Putting Tomlin alone with Maria Taylor on Sunday, we're like, we only have three and a half minutes here. We might as well just ride our best person. Everybody else clear out for Tomlin. Nobody does stuff like that anymore. Nobody. We don't need to hear from Jason Garrett at halftime. We also don't need to hear from Jason Garrett in the pregame show either, by the way. Just throwing that out there. I also think this, I was watching - Or the pre-pregame show or any show. Yeah, I'm with you. Really, we don't need to hear from Jason Garrett in American life is what you're saying.

1:09:36Yes. I was thinking about that too. Remember when Jaden Daniels got hurt right before halftime the other day and they go to the Fox guys and they just look like completely discombobulated at halftime. Right. I mean, Howie Long, I mean, just could not get the words out. And you're like, my guy, this is a kind of a big moment in the NFL right now. You got to give me something. He's like, well, you know, they built a team around Jaden Daniels. Like, yeah, okay. Thanks, man. I appreciate your help with that. It's just the whole thing is like people don't watch games anymore. And so when you get a guy like that and you're like, oh, you watch this game.

1:10:05That's not even the game you're assigned to. It's not even the game you're at in Tomlin's case. And you have like a nice, brief, smart take on it. That's all we want.

1:10:14Bill Simmons:Yeah, you have to have the ability to ad lib, but also center in on two, three things during the day. If you're going to be on another NBC show, which they've, it's been a failure the entire time they've had it. You know, that when, whenever they got football and it was always Dick Eversol, he loves spending money. He's going to go, he'll pay top dollar. But they never figured out the actual surrounding shows. The only time I would ever watch it is if I was preparing for the Sunday Night Pod and I just wanted to remind myself what some of the highlights were. But they're doing, like the last couple of years, they've been doing FaceTiming people in the locker room.

1:10:49Bill Simmons:Who's that for? Hey, Brian Curtis, great win today. And then he's just, his face is taking up the TV. Thanks, Maria. Yeah, we had a good win. And I just, I don't get it. I mean, last year was probably the nadir when they had those super brief Matthew Barry fantasy things where he's like, I like Jameer Gibbs over nine yards. Back to you. And it was recorded at some strange time and you can't totally tell when. And then it's going down to Jack Collinsworth. They have like two different shows at the same location. It's like, how about just pick four people or three people and let me know what's happening.

1:11:23Bill Simmons:So is Tomlin too good is my next question because sometimes when stuff is too good to be true with TV, it usually is. Yeah, and this is always a problem with the coach. Yeah. When you get a coach who is not Jeff Van Gundy, he always wants to coach again. He wants to get back in the game. And his TV stuff is an audition to get back in the game. And, you know, I was a little bit surprised when he took a shot at the Cowboys for the defense because sometimes coach doesn't criticize another coach. Coach on coach crime, yeah. Coach on coach crime. But I'm also like, hey, if you're auditioning for another NFL job, what better thing can you do than criticize another coach?

1:12:02You know, a coach isn't going to hire you. A GM is or an owner is. Like, it's actually showing off how smart you are. And, I mean, isn't he going to be the number one free agent with all the coaches next year? Well, he had the Browns going to Browns thing, whatever he said.

1:12:16Bill Simmons:Every week he said something where you're like, wow. No, you're firing shots here. It makes me think he doesn't want to coach. and I'm sure he's having a great time yeah he's working he's probably getting paid around the same that he got to coach right they had to have overpaid him to for the 17 Sundays a couple playoff games whatever I mean I'm sure he's near the top of the salary stratosphere he's working Saturday Sundays like he's flying he's flying him maybe on a Friday or Saturday he's having lunch with the guys the the night before he's in a big booth with TVs watching the games on Sunday and his whole Monday, right?

1:12:54Oh, absolutely. I did hear, by the way, there wasn't quite the salary market for Tomlin that some people thought there would be just because there wasn't really open. There wasn't really an opening anywhere. Well, we didn't know about Romo yet. We didn't know about Romo.

1:13:07Bill Simmons:So I get that. That was my third question. What is the best use of Mike Tomlin? Because I think if you're NBC and they always have, there's always one game where like Collinsworth is in there or like you have to do the backup crew, however it works out. You've got to see what he's like doing a game, I think. And I think Collinsworth is as good as he's ever been. I'm not trying to push Collinsworth out, but I think you have to just test drive it, or you have to put him in the booth with those guys, which I think would be awesome. And I think Collinsworth is a good enough broadcaster that if you put Tomlin in there, he'd be able to play off, you know, and Tariqo would know how to handle it.

1:13:45Bill Simmons:But I think you have to see it at some point this season, right? I completely agree. I mean, this is the Jason Garrett slot. In previous years, he's been in the booth. This was the Drew Brees slot a couple years ago when he was there. Had that all-time terrible playoff game, Bengals versus Ravens, which convinced everybody that maybe he shouldn't be in broadcasting. Had to eventually come back and take the number three job at Fox just to get back in the game. By the way, it's not bad. That's the thing. I think he's pretty good. He's been a revelation as not being bad. This is the thing with Fox.

1:14:14They always say, bring him over here. We'll get you tons of reps. We'll get you really good producers. and we think we can make you into the announcer we want to make you into. And NBC, he just didn't do a bunch of games.

1:14:26Bill Simmons:No. Well, we, and we've talked, ever since I've known you, we've talked about this, where they just throw these people into the fire, basically, with little, Jerome Bettis, the most famous example. I still think he should have been good at TV, but they just pushed him in, like, basically off a cliff. Like, learn how to swim, and they just shove you. But with Tomlin, I think I like him more in this role. But I also feel like we're not getting enough of him. And I think there needs to be a second piece of it. And maybe this is just how much he wants to work. But I, you know, we've seen like Belichick tried this, right?

1:15:00Bill Simmons:Belichick's like, I'm doing media. And he was on three different things. And I felt like he played it very safely. You could tell he was holding back. All the shows were different. Inside the NFL was probably the closest to being interesting, but I didn't go out of my way to watch it. And I just felt like he was tiptoeing. Tomlin's the first one in a while that doesn't seem to care if he's going to get another coaching job or not. Maybe he doesn't want to coach anymore. You know, he's done it for a long time. Maybe that's just it. Bill Belichick went on that tour because he wanted people to like him.

1:15:32He's like, I'm going to convince you to like me. And he convinced absolutely no one to like him at all. People already like Tomlin. I think they would hire him if he was out there. But yeah, maybe he wants to be on the coward track. I mean, how long has Bill Cowher been? Speaking of guys you don't pay attention to on Sunday mornings. Right. As long as Bill Cowher been on that CBS show. But I agree with you. I'd put him in the booth. I think the three man is actually the best idea. Yeah. Because as you said, Collinsworth is great. You don't really have that many games you throw him on unless you start throwing him on like college games, Notre Dame, that kind of stuff, which just doesn't seem like a very good use of Mike Tomlin.

1:16:05Bill Simmons:Yeah. But I would just like find a couple of occasions where you're like, I'm just going to put you in here. Even for a quarter. Just have some fun. As you know, I hate three man booths and I'm morally opposed to them with very, very few exceptions. This is one where even if he came in second quarters, perfect for this, right? Um, before halftime, you know, you can feel it out for 10 minutes, have him talk about what he's seeing in the game and maybe he leaves, but this is, I can't believe this worked out. And then the other thing that's happened, Brady's now good. I don't understand how this happened either.

1:16:41Bill Simmons:He, he, he's letting it fly. now. He's way more comfortable and he's saying the meatball sub kind of stuff and the piss missiles. That was great. It feels like we're closer to what it's like to hang out with Tom Brady during a game. I don't think he's all the way there yet, but this is going better than I thought year one. He's got interesting parts of a bunch of different announcers. He's got Tony Romo's enthusiasm. He sounds genuinely, I'm happy to be here. This is where I want to be in the world watching this game. But then he's got the Trey Aikman thing where when he sees crappy football, he's like, I don't like this.

1:17:17Right, he's horrified. Yeah, and you can always tell with Brady and quarterbacks, like, show me a Brady-Jalen Hurts game, you won't find any compliments. You will find grudging compliments. You can tell exactly what, even when he won the Super Bowl, you could just tell Brady being like, eh, not my guy. Mahomes, loves him. Jared Goff, loves him. Justin Herbert, ooh, might be in the Hurts column. After the other, he was just like, you can just tell the way and it's like, this is what we want to know, right? We want to know what Tom Brady really thinks of people. Do you think it's weird that he's also owning a part of the

1:17:51Bill Simmons:Raiders and helping run that team? Extremely. Extremely weird. I talked about it last week. It violates basically one of the basic premises of things you're allowed to do in the NFL and media. And somehow everybody's decided it's fine because it's Tom Brady. I like the listener mailbag I had was it was a deflate gate like kind of payback we owe you because we screwed you over on this so we're gonna look the other way but it's definitely strange but he's I think is is at least in the top three now who do you have for the top three so it's Collinsworth Eggman and Brady that's my top three so you wouldn't put Olsen in there

1:18:33it's right there i don't know i i think i think i'll go with those two those three is my top ones

1:18:39Bill Simmons:i really do so i have collinsworth one i think i have brady too and i think i have aikman three um and then olsen probably i jj watt i need more of that was another topic i want to discuss because I think Nance and Watt have been really awkward. And, you know, at some point, because once the play by, this happened with Mike Breen too, who I don't think since Van Gundy and Jackson has really found his groove with any partner in the same way when he was, you know, throwing 99 miles an hour with really carrying Van Gundy and Jackson in a lot of different ways. And I just don't think he's matched that since.

1:19:22Bill Simmons:But I think because it's Mike Breen, we've already decided on Mike Breen. So anytime the broadcast isn't perfect, you always tend to blame the other people. Right. And I think that might be the case here with Nance. Like he, it's the really, really great ones would be able to pull out the JJ Watt, but a lot of it still feels forced. It's a lot of like, whoa, it's like when we went to that Brazilian place last night, JJ, and you, the waiter finally tapped out. And it's just like, almost like, like they went into AI to have some like fake exchanges to print out, to execute or something. All the Brazil stuff was so magical because we got steakhouses.

1:20:00Bill Simmons:Yeah. We got dancing and we got Christ the Redeemer. So I also played Where in the World is Carmen Sandiego? It's a video game. Right. Learned those exact facts about Brazil. Thank you guys for filling me in. So you're in Brazil, right? We're in Brazil. You're in Brazil. Okay. There's some culture here. You're in Brazil. Got it. First time ever in Rio. Yeah. They like field goal kicking here, JJ. I'm so glad you said Breen is a comp because that's exactly where I was going to go you got a guy who's in his 60s in Nance, he's 67 you're in the last decade of your career at least at like that level of calling games, you know, being the lead guy and all of a sudden they're like you know what, your analyst isn't your analyst anymore we're changing things up, you felt you were in a groove and with Nance maybe it was twofold maybe Romo kind of collapsed on him and now he has to like have this new guy and I'm just like, it just feels...

1:20:56How many times, by the way, did he say J.J. Watt's name during that game? Did you notice that after every play? J.J.? What'd you see on that play? J.J.?

1:21:04Bill Simmons:Well, as you know, that's my favorite broadcasting crutch for we don't have chemistry yet.

1:21:12Bill Simmons:I remember writing about it in my book. It was Costas, Isaiah Thomas, Doug Collins. Just like repeatedly just calling each other. because nobody had, they had such little chemistry. They had to like repeatedly just call out each other so they would know the other person was up next talking. So you know that's bad. Did Costas call him Zeke? Remind me. Probably, probably year two, maybe. That was when you're like comfortable enough to call him Zeke? Yeah. The Watt thing is fascinating because I love linemen. We need more linemen in big jobs like that. And if you listen to him, he's really sharp.

1:21:48He sees the field well. he's got a little of that big galoot lineman in him yeah and it's funny a friend sent me a text it was like it feels like he doesn't know quite how much to lean into that you know like he had little moments where he almost sounds like alex caris did when we were kids you know i'm a big old guy i play football you know i'm that i'm that kind of lovable lug but i don't know he all felt a little downbeat to me he also started getting really shouty at the end of the game if you noticed when things got exciting, he was just, he didn't quite know emotionally how to get there.

1:22:24Bill Simmons:Yeah. The thing about Romo, you and I just have whacked Romo, you know, over and over again over the last couple of years. But like Romo to me understood the emotional parts of football announcing. Yeah. That was his great gift. All the, Oh Jim. Oh, here we go, Jim. Like it was annoying, but that was his superpower. Like he knew like, Hey, we got Patrick Mahomes, Josh Allen, Joe Burrow coming down the field in the fourth quarter. This is a big deal. Like, I need to underline this. I need to jump on this. I need to feel what the viewer at home is feeling. It was the here we go. Here we go, Jim.

1:22:58Here we go, Jim. I know it sounds corny, but that's what Romo was really good at. And with Watt, you're like, hey, second year broadcaster, he's still learning television, but he just doesn't have that sense of the medium that guys like Romo, Collinsworth do, where you just, you have to get a big moment. You have to just make it feel really big.

1:23:17Bill Simmons:yeah and even when Romo I just don't think he worked this hard the last couple years and you could feel it there's just no question but you didn't know the names of the linemen yeah I mean when they started saying the numbers Herbstreet does this too now because he's just doing too much too many games every week like ah 78 was there it's like alright you know by the way I'd be a disaster because I wouldn't be able to remember anyone's number it is a certain skill but I think when you're when you're doing a Thursday game and a Saturday game. It's a pretty tall task to begin with. But with Romo, like I did feel that his superpower was the more invested he was in whatever the moment or the drive or whatever, it made me more invested.

1:24:00And with Watt, I think he has good stuff.

1:24:06Bill Simmons:Like he did the Pittsburgh New England game and it was annoying because his brother's on Pittsburgh, right? And it's like, there's no way you're not rooting for Pittsburgh. I know you're trying to suppress it. So as a Pats fan, I'm like, fuck, like, wait, really? We have to have TJ Watt's brother do this game. But he did have good stuff. It's just, like, you wouldn't be able to do an SNL sketch about him, which I think is weirdly a part of how to be a great announcer, is you have to almost be able to be teased, like, for whatever your character is. Like, and Brady already definitely has that. Romo had that in spades.

1:24:39Bill Simmons:Madden had that. and J.J. Watt and I think Greg Olson fits into this too where it's like they're good at their job they do they do perfectly fine job but I wouldn't be doing like J.J. Watt impersonations on my podcast on Sunday night I don't know if that matters what would you parody is what you're asking he's he's he's fine he does a good job yeah right he's like he's like a B or a B plus he's sound observations and I was thinking about this at CBS right so Romo's in purgatory he's in timeout That was going to be my next question. Like, where is he? It's going to be week four this week. Week four.

1:25:16You're David Burson and you're sitting there and you're like, part of this equation, as we know, is not just a moral equation. It's like, do I have a number one announcer that I can just put into that slot and feel good about for the next couple of years or at least the rest of this year? Yeah. And I look at Watt and I'm like, I can see it. I could project it, but I'm not sure he's the number one guy.

1:25:36Bill Simmons:Or he's in a three-man booth as a number two guy. I feel like he needs another person and again, I don't like three man booths but it just feels like it needs a little more there's something to be said about seeing Brady especially seeing Brady these days but seeing Brady it's like that's Tom Brady Collinsworth has been in our lives for this entire century as an announcer and it still feels like a big game when he's there. I think Tariko's the best he's ever been announcing football just in general like he's still i feel like he's still climbing as a play-by-play guy his football stuff is fantastic he's leveling up in in front of our eyes which i didn't think was totally possible have you noticed like when there's a weird rules moment before the referee can even talk he's diving in to tell you i know it's not gonna be a 10 second runoff here yeah because the clock will stop and just like it's this command of small things combined with the moment too.

1:26:36Bill Simmons:Like he's, if it's a good play, he's by far the best guy on a big play, you know, and this was what Al used to be great at forever. But, um, Tariqo's on top of it. He's got the right amount of excitement, but then you're right. He also has that nerd side, which I felt like was holding him back for the first 10 years. He had to be perfect with everything. Right. He had to like, you know, he was like that, that batter at the batter's box who had to do his gloves nine times and grab his cup. And now he, I think he lets it fly better. I think he's the number one football play by play guy right now.

1:27:08I don't know. I don't, I don't think it's close. I sat in a booth with him for the ringer a couple of years ago for a piece. And this dude came out for the Bengals. He was like a backup defensive tackle. And Tariqo's calling the game and he pulls out this iPad that he's written all these notes on and he's calling the game and he starts going like this through the iPad. This is weird. Television is, is happening at this point. and he finds this note about this guy about his like usage rate you know how many snaps he played in the last couple games because he barely played at all and has the exact number of snaps and just like goes all the way and then just puts the iPad away and I'm like how the hell did you do that?

1:27:43Just watching that I mean that's not something you can't remember everything Right So you're like reaching for things during the game and looking over here and all that stuff and yeah I feel he's really really really good and getting better which is the scary part He's probably

1:27:58Bill Simmons:I would say this generation's Michaels for the ability to basically be thrown into anything and be really good. And top of the line. I agree. And then the interesting part is also with Collinsworth. Because I asked him about this once. I was like, what's the difference between Colin again with Al and Colin again with Mike? And he goes, Al was a little more, you know, snarky, little down here. And so Collinsworth went way up. Yeah. He felt like he needed to be Mr. Energy. Oh, you know, I can't do the Cousin Sal imitation, but he felt like he needed to be that Chris. Mike's way up here, right? He's an energy guy.

1:28:31So I think that also allowed Collinsworth to come down a little bit. I mean, remember the great Caleb Williams started on the playoffs last year and Tariqo calls the play perfectly and then you just hear Collinsworth just laughing?

1:28:41Bill Simmons:Yeah. He can pull that laugh out five seconds after the play now. He's got it on command. Oh, he just lays out and then he laughs. It's great. And that to me is like the perfect pairing for them. Collinsworth can kind of relax and be Chris Collinsworth. I've been with him since 1990 on network television. Yeah. And Mike is calling the game superbly. I thought Luke Kinkley was interesting. But unfortunately, on Netflix, it doesn't get enough games. I almost wish he could get more reps calling stuff during this season. But that's another one where it's like the A-traditional. He was a linebacker, J.J.

1:29:16Bill Simmons:Watts, a defensive lineman. But I like the perspective of those guys. They always come up with a couple things where I'm like, ah. He did a lot of generic stuff, too. But for the most part, I thought he was pretty interesting. There was some generic stuff and some stuff that just sounded like I'm supposed to talk for exactly 9.8 seconds here. And then I shut off. But he's another guy. Yeah, give him a full season on Fox or CBS and he could really turn into something interesting. So you noticed the Breeze thing too. I thought I was, I didn't realize who it was. And I was flipping games around and then whatever game he was doing ended up with the sound.

1:29:50Bill Simmons:And I'm like, this guy's good. Who's this? And it was like, it's Drew Breeze? Wow. I was like pleasantly surprised. But I thought he feels feistier now. He does. The Fox guys were always like, we felt like there was something there that didn't get used at NBC. And mostly it's just doing games. And hey, you're in the number three slot. Until you bring the sound over there, you're not focusing on Drew Brees like we would be if he had a big, big job. Greg Olson's going to clearly go away. And he's going to be the number two guy pretty soon. And that's interesting. Before this.

1:30:29There's this. As you celebrate the game, take a deeper look at its roots. The people grow in the grass, paving the lots, welding the goalposts, inspecting every football. The hardworking people that make every Sunday possible. Carhartt is proud to outfit the crews behind the game. Visit carhartt.com slash join the trades to learn more.

1:30:54Bill Simmons:This episode is brought to you by Panda Express. Telling someone you love them, it isn't always easy, but showing them through food, sometimes that's better than words, especially when that food's wok cooked at Panda Express, a Joe House favorite. Pick from delicious classics like orange chicken, honey walnut shrimp, Kung Pao chicken, and black pepper sirloin steak. Perfect for when you're watching the team you love or eating with the person you love. Have you eaten yet? Click or tap the banner to order or visit a Panda Express near you. Herb Street. I've been watching a lot more college football this year.

1:31:32Bill Simmons:It's really been a Bill Simmons college football renaissance. Including the 4-0 UCLA, which is covering... We got UCLA. I've watched every UCLA game. I try to watch the big game of the week. I'm fascinated by the quarterbacks. there might be some wagering as well to pique my interest but yeah put me in the camp of if his name was Arch Lewis I don't think he would be in the top three I know other people have made that point I think it's 100 % when I watch all these quarterbacks they have flaws, they do good things, they do bad things but I personally don't see it as a top three pick but this is your team you're a texas guy so do you see it what am i missing when kirk goldsbury and i were there at the ohio state game when it was 94 degrees at kickoff at 6 30 at night and we were like two old men in a sauna that are like talking to each other in towels uh what are you doing here kirk it's just like he's the most incredibly frustrating guy i've ever seen because i agree with you if it weren't manning you'd be like i don't think this guy's it he's just not consistent enough and the funny thing about him being a Manning is I think maybe his best skill is using his legs.

1:32:50He's a really good, a traditional Manning. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. He's a great runner. And when he's more like a, you know, a lot of college quarterbacks, like it's a good enough passer. But when you combine good enough passing with like a really dynamic runner who can just go to the house all the time that then you can win some games. Yeah, that's arched to me. I don't see him as like a classic top five pick because, hey, you know, he's got great pocket awareness. And I mean, He takes forever to get through his reads. He makes dumb throws all the time. How many times? Twice against Tennessee, if you were watching on Sunday, he threw balls past the line of scrimmage.

1:33:22You're like, what? His fourth year? You're a Manning? You're throwing balls past the line of scrimmage?

1:33:28Bill Simmons:Well, with Herbstreet.

1:33:33Bill Simmons:I just don't totally get it. What am I supposed to get? That's a college announcer. We're not talking about Thursday night football. We're not even going to NFL yet. For the college, because I think that he's the most respected college guy, right? Is there somebody more respected than him? Joel Klatt's probably the 1B on Fox. And I'm not saying he's bad, but what am I missing? Because he seems pretty generic to me. And especially compared to the NFL guys we talked about. I just don't think he's in the same class. As a college guy, his claim to fame is that he's a human computer. You got way more teams to worry about.

1:34:08You got way more players to worry about. and the players change all the time. So it's just a completely different job in the NFL when you're coming back. You have 10 years later, you're watching the same quarterback that you've games you've called. Well, I will say this. When he does a Texas game, he'll say little things about the roster and there are things that are not only just like correct, but are the really good take about it. I'm like, oh, that's the stuff I'm reading about on my message board.

1:34:35Bill Simmons:Yeah, so he's incredibly well prepared. There's a lot of really bad college announcements. So welcome to college football, first of all. And if you're watching UCLA and they don't have like the lead or even like the fourth or fifth telecast, it gets pretty bad. And you guys are like, man, did you read the program when you started calling this game? I've never caught Herbie in that situation, ever. Okay. Well, that's a good and compelling case. He certainly, like I haven't heard anybody that I thought was better with him in college, but I also don't feel like it's not like John Madden. I'd have no idea why he's doing these Thursday NFL games maybe they just needed a name and it was like just oh shit we have football this year who can we get who's available and this is the biggest name and you do it but I just think he's a college guy who also like on the side kind of seems like he's following the NFL and I don't really learn anything from him during the games he says pretty basic stuff it's not a great experience you remember when they were looking to fill that job it was Sean McVay I think was choice one Troy Aikman they wanted they wanted John Lynch they wanted all kinds of people for that job and then everybody said no or was unavailable and all of a sudden it was like okay Herbie let's put him with Al and they could have had Greg Olson by the way for that job way back when that was not somebody they pointed at it's interesting and this feels I mean this feels like maybe he's like he contracts up this year and maybe he just goes back and does well now that he has the dog store now he's now he's who knows where that goes that was in Mississippi was that what it was Oxford pop up dog stores as you know I love dogs you're a dog guy I've never had less than two dogs since 2004 love dogs wrote pieces about my dogs the dog store very memorable one dog store is a little much come by a coffee mug with my dog's face on it a portion of the proceeds goes to veterinary clinics what's happening like that is just a heat check that is a classic like and nobody in your life tried to talk you out of that one i have uh not uh sat down on the uh couch the psychologist couch with herbie but also when i see him now like this is a guy who got the game day job when he was 26 years old.

1:37:00Ooh, like a child actor. 30 years ago.

1:37:04Bill Simmons:Yeah. He became the host of college game day on ESPN. And he's been calling the games for 15 plus years now. And it just feels like he's in this part of his life, part of his career. We're like, what do I do now? Do I just, you know, roll this out and go to Oxford? And I think he still loves that. Like he still seems like with college, he seems like he's into whatever's in front of him. But also there, it feels like there's a little bit of searching going on there, perhaps. I think that sounds fair. Speaking of searching, Charles Barkley, who said on my podcast a few weeks ago that this was his last year.

1:37:38Bill Simmons:It wasn't even really a news story because he's said this multiple times before. And I joked on the podcast that he was the Muhammad Ali of retirements, which he took exception to and claimed he had only tried to retire once. I let it go. Fact check, false. He said it again this week that this is going to be his last year. Do you believe him? I don't believe him. The only thing that made me think twice was the Ernie Johnson part of it. So let's say Ernie does retire because that's what Charles is saying, right? This is going to be my last year on Inside the NBA and Ernie's last year. Yeah. Could he do that show with somebody other than Ernie?

1:38:19And here's the more interesting question. Who would you put on that show as a host if Ernie does retire?

1:38:27Bill Simmons:it's it is one of those things every time it's not ernie i'm bummed out agreed i mean that's like ernie's perfect place in the broadcast universe like i don't know if you'd put him on i think he would have fine if you put him on like an nfl pregame show or something like that but that show is where he belongs and if he were to leave and you were trying to keep the chemistry which has already been kind of threatened by the espn thing and it's already, you know, everybody felt a little bit weird about it last year. They gave them a lot of time in the playoffs, though. I think my one fear about that the time stuff would screw them up was not really what happened.

1:39:05ESPN rallied late and gave them time, which was good. It did. It'll be different this year when McAfee's on the show.

1:39:15Bill Simmons:Is he doing that, too? I don't know. It's funny. You know, it seems like he gets written about a lot and my attitude on all of it is I don't really care. Like he's on a lot of stuff. They absolutely like him. Like more power to him. He works really hard. I respect the work ethic. When people freaked out about the NFL pregame show, I'm like, isn't this what you want Pat McAfee doing? Like football talk, talking ball on the pregame show. He's one of your big stars. Of course you want him on here. Yeah. I mean, and same thing with college game day. I think the Stephen A. Smith piece of it is fascinating though, that this was basically how they were treating Stephen A.

1:39:52Bill Simmons:Smith two years ago. and putting them on everywhere to the point that people were getting pissed off about it. And then there's been organizational stuff behind the scenes at ESPN. There's new people in charge of this stuff who are, I would say, it's fair to say pro-McAfee. And Stephen A, who got this new deal and is on two other shows that aren't on ESPN. And it seems like they've come to a little bit of a, okay, you're just gonna do first take, maybe pop on a couple other things every once in a while, and that's going to be his ESPN relationship. But that was not the case two years ago. Things really flipped, didn't they?

1:40:28Yeah. Remember writing Stephen A. as the most powerful talent in ESPN history became such a cliche that we all stopped writing it? And all of a sudden you're like, ooh, I don't think he is anymore.

1:40:39Bill Simmons:They kept him away from inside the NBA. I don't, did he ever even go on that show? I don't think they, I mean, they really. I don't remember. I thought that was interesting. I thought so too. And now Pat McAfee can do anything he wants. We have to be careful because I don't want him to start his YouTube show tonight saying, Bill Simmons, you and I have always gotten along. But my name was in your mouth and we have to talk about this. Stephen A knows I like him. We're going to get down. Stephen A knows I like him. I don't know if you should be on three shows a day. I don't think that's sustainable.

1:41:13Bill Simmons:It's just a lot of work. I'm somebody who does shows. It's hard to research them and follow everything. And to just do three a day every day, I worry about him. I don't know if that's ultimately going to be efficient for him, but I guess we'll see. I agree. He has different things on different shows. First take is still first take, recognizably so, even if he didn't quite have the co-host go-to guy that he did in past years. No. But then the politics thing just seems to be either him interviewing potential presidential candidates or him just like calling out some journalist and getting into some huge fight with somebody from his past or, and I was like, what is this?

1:41:53Bill Simmons:Yeah. There was a whole thing. I barely followed it, but he went on Jamel and Kerry champion show and then didn't like, and then it just kept going for a couple of days and then was doing post the full interview after it was over. Every time I saw something about it, it was on my Twitter, whatever, but I realized that was on the for you page. I'm like, no, no, this is not for me. and then you go to the people you're following. But yeah, it just feels like you could have a side career just intermittently doing these, they're almost like wrestling things. It's like what we grew up in the 80s where it's like, Magnificent Morocco, you had your name in my mouth.

1:42:33But when we're at the Nassau Coliseum on Friday night, I'm going to show you. And that's kind of half of sports media now? Yeah. Yeah, our Undertaker voice, carry champion.

1:42:51Bill Simmons:Good luck to everybody. Charles Barkley, so you think he is coming back? I think he's coming back. By the way, remember his retirement? After this year. You think he's back after this year? I think he's back. I think he's back forever. I'm old enough to remember when he was going to retire to go to Live Golf four years ago. People forget about that retirement. there was the whole, I'm going to retire when I'm 60. I'm going to retire when the Turner deal's over. I'm going to retire when Ernie retires. But there was also, I'm going to retire to go to the renegade golf thing. Yeah. That just turned out to be completely bogus.

1:43:26A lot of money being thrown around.

1:43:29Bill Simmons:But the live was the all time. Wait, how much are you offering? And then some golfers took it. Oh yeah. I mean, Barkley had that quote, like, I, you know, Hey, I have a price. they're surprised that I would go to live golf. I mean, we've seen that with comics. We've seen that with all types of people. We have the MLB. We're taping this during the Phillies Braves game, but we have the MLB playoffs, which is always interesting because it always reminds me that we've never been 100 % satisfied with an MLB national color guy ever. Who came the closest? Early McCarver? Yeah. I think that's the answer.

1:44:07ABC McCarver?

1:44:09Bill Simmons:ABC and then like early like with Jack Buck McCarver like probably till like the mid 90s and then people started to he was one of the first announcers when I I might even made fun of him in my college column but when when I had my website just so easy to to do McCarver material and then we had him and Deardorff at the same time and plus Paul McGuire and ESPN oh my god and all the basketball guys were terrible it was like a smorgasbord for me the stuff to make fun of But whenever I'm reminded, whenever I complain about announcers now, I'm like, it used to be so much worse. Yeah. There were just always guys who were like, man, that dude's doing a national game?

1:44:48Right. Yeah, they'd surprise us over and over again, especially in the NBA. And McCarver got cranky. This is the thing. Why do baseball announcers get cranky the longer they're in the seat? Oh, that Joe Morgan, even a more famous example.

1:45:01Bill Simmons:Smoltz has gotten crankier. Yeah, I don't. It's not doing it for me. And it's another... there's something about baseball too, where every fan base decides pretty early on that you hate their team. And I think with Smoltz probably has the most of these, I don't know a single fan base who's like, yeah, John Smoltz has been fair to us. Everybody's John Smoltz. Fuck that guy. He hates us. Everybody thinks he's carrying on these grudges. Like he's Michael Corleone in these games. And, you know, I just think that we've never figured out how to move baseball announcing into the 21st century. You know, I think about it when I obviously watch a ton of Red Sox.

1:45:42Bill Simmons:And I think the Red Sox stuff is more on the higher end of some of these broadcasts. But it's still, it's a lot of filler. It's a lot of babbling. It's a lot of just trying to kill time. Yes, even with shorter games. Yeah. Killing time. It's funny. I texted a baseball announcer this morning because I knew you and I were going to talk. And I was like, hey, who's the color guy I should be really excited about to hear in the postseason. Ooh. Because I can't think of anybody. And the announcer wrote back, the reason you can't think of anybody is because there's not anybody. How's that possible? Yeah, and I was just trying to think of names, and I was like, what is it?

1:46:20Is it Ron Darling and Jeff Francoo are on TBS? Does that get you there? I mean, that's solid to me, right? That's not bad. Ron Darling, that sounds like baseball.

1:46:30Bill Simmons:I think Pedro could have done it, but it's easier to do his studio stuff. I think Pedro could have been really good. He's really smart with baseball. Poppy's good in studio, I think. But just in the booth, we haven't had that guy. I mean, I think Lou Merloni's doing the Red Sox Yankee series, right? With Jason Benetti on NBC? Yeah, Lou's good. I actually think as a local guy, he's about as good as we've had. That's not bad. Yeah. But I'm surprised he's doing our series. Like, if I was a Yankee fan, I wouldn't feel great about that. Oh, but it's also Joe Girardi's part of that, too. This is the thing with NBC, right?

1:47:04They like the local flavor, you know, get it in there. That to me is not a bad solution. Yeah, it's not bad. It's just strange that we haven't had somebody who mixes,

1:47:15Bill Simmons:like the old school way of how we used to talk about baseball when it was just we were all full of shit versus the new school way using the stats and launch angles and all these different things. There's some really interesting discussions out there. Do you think that this is just the network's not paying enough attention of baseball because they've spent all their time thinking about their football stuff probably but the the difference is i think the baseball audience is is really going to keep growing this this decade assuming they don't have a lockout coming off the most amazing world series you can imagine red sox yankees best two or three is just amazing that's that that's happening right and then we have all these other teams that are in the mix like the cubs and the phillies I don't know yeah it just it's a weird mystery that they haven't developed especially like one big national guy you're like I can't wait to hear that guy break down a game because if this is the NFL playoffs you and I'd be excited about Brady and Aikman and Collinsworth and Olsen we'd be like oh look I can't wait to hear what he has to say like that'll be a fun a fun listen and I'm just like who is that in baseball right now I think with baseball podcasting it's been a little similar because there's almost two different conversations going on with baseball at all times and nobody has figured out how to synthesize those for a larger audience.

1:48:33Whereas we have 50 NBA podcasts

1:48:36Bill Simmons:that could probably appeal to whoever. Like even this hockey podcast we just added, the What Chaos Guys, they're really good. And it's like the reason we never had a hockey podcast at Grantland or at the Ringer is I just never heard one that I felt like could cover the sport the way like how fucking fanatical hockey fans are, but also would do it in an accessible way to casual fans. It's like the hardest thing to balance and hockey and baseball and soccer, I think to some degree too. Um, you really have to nail both demos because if you don't, if you don't hit both, they, they one or both will go.

1:49:16And that's just how it goes. Also goes back to what we were talking about with Tomlin. like there's a bridge between baseball statistics and all the great data we have at our fingertips now and then appealing to a general audience and being like funny and relatable yeah and emotional right and it's not it's got to be doable because there's so many football announcers that do it like you know greg olson does that right he dignifies the x's and o's and he's that guy like chris collinsworth is that guy you know they chris collinsworth used to own a data company right? Like this, this can be done, but I just don't know why that person has been found in baseball.

1:49:55And again, I just, I wonder how much they've even tried to develop that person, gone shopping for it in the way they would with the NFL.

1:50:03Bill Simmons:Every time you think things evolving, PTI is just cranking out another year as the best half hour sports show. This format that was created in 2000. Yeah. They got that award the other day, you know, there was like, what was it from, I can't remember which college was going to give them an award. And I'm like, they're just winning. They're into just like, oh, great. We're honored to accept another award. Here we go. You know? Yeah. That's like the pit season 12, just going up there, just getting more Emmys. And that's because they're grandfathered in, right? Like we couldn't create another show on ESPN that would be that, right?

1:50:37Bill Simmons:I didn't like when Wilbon gave the answer about if Tony retired, when he said the thing about why I would do it with Frank I solo then. I was really surprised he said that. I thought the correct answer would have been it's my show with Tony. I want to do this show with Tony for as long as he wants to do it. I'm not going to think about what's happening after. It was weird that he had somebody warming up in the bullpen. I was really, really surprised by that. I agree. It would be really weird to see it just with one of them permanently. It's weird when one of them is gone. It's weird. That's a show where I know they do fill-ins and stuff, including I saw it was good, but it'd be weird not to have Mike and Tony together.

1:51:18Bill Simmons:Well, Tony's been retiring for 12 years. On the Charles Barkley plan? Almost at the end of 2026. I'm so old. Nobody wants to look at me. I just don't see him. And the ratings are fine. I saw it the other day. They had an hour-long show, and that was maybe like three, four weeks ago, which Tony has resisted forever. He feels like that would be the death of the show, the moment it went for an hour. wasn't not interesting. Like they made the little five good minutes. Those interviews were longer and they figured out a way to string along. You basically have to do 42, 43 minutes of content instead of 22.

1:51:55But I wasn't against it. No.

1:51:59Bill Simmons:Sometimes you got to evolve a little bit, you know? I agree. The shortness of it though, back in the day was part of the magic because it felt like the length of a column they would write in the post. Right. Remember columns? remember how short they were compared to everything now it's not like a sub stack that just goes on for hundreds and hundreds of words it's like oh you know nice and tight you remember those i do what do we think is the ideal sports calm length i don't know the inches but i think like around a thousand words maybe maybe maybe you could talk me into 850 yeah i remember when i was doing the magazine thing i've been thinking about this a lot lately.

1:52:38Bill Simmons:Don't read too much into that. But, um, but the, uh, I started out with 650, which was just basically putting myself in a car bomb. Like there, I had no chance. I'm just blowing up every week. I couldn't barely say anything at 650 words. Then they gave me like, it was like somewhere around eight, 10. And that was a little better. Like I could at least have of like, here's the premise and race through it, hit some bits and go. But then I finally ended up at 1250, which was two pages. It was like between 1225, 1250. And I really felt like that was a pretty good length. So I personally think it's somewhere probably between 1000 and 1250.

1:53:21Bill Simmons:But, you know, I've seen some stuff I've written, like some of the, not even mailbag things, stuff I wrote that would be like 5 ,500, 6 ,000 words. I didn't even think twice. I'm like, people read this. I don't think anyone would read that now. I would have to spend like a month on it to make every single part of it perfect to even put that out because people are just, they're just doing this all day. I don't know how you could capture their attention like that. Yeah. And you're talking about with the magazine, stuff that's written, you have some time to do or you're thinking about a little bit.

1:53:56Yeah, 100%. Or I'm talking about newspaper stuff that you're writing in a press box. You know, how long you just, a game just happened.

1:54:01Bill Simmons:Yeah, fair, fair, fair. yeah like you got an hour a turner I gotta say Shaughnessy who I've obviously had a lot of problems with over the years he still cranks out those 850 I have an angle boom boom same kind of thing I mean Sally Jenkins is probably still I would say the best pure calmness for that although she's not at the Washington Post anymore but there's still a couple people that still do it that way yeah such an art I mean just in terms of like having ideas and then having to react. You know, this thing happened right before me and I got to just sit down and write this baby. And it's got to be great.

1:54:41Bill Simmons:Those were all my favorite things I ever wrote when I had a limited amount of time to do it. Because I think that's when the degree of difficulty comes in on top of whether you wrote something good or not. But when you have some sort of obstacle and you have to do it, those are always, like the best piece I ever wrote was after game four, game five of the ALCS when just coming home from that, having to stay up till five and write something that I thought ended up being really good. But trying to capture that, but having a limited amount of time, but also like starting to fade because I'd been up for 22 hours, you know?

1:55:15Bill Simmons:And I'm drinking like a big gulp Coke trying to get through it. Like those are like, when you pull those off as a writer, those are the best. And it's so immediate. Yeah. You're not, you don't get in your own head because you can't. You can't. It's just like, what's the metaphor? Okay, I'll take it. First choice, second choice, third choice. Let's go, you know. Well, that's a good lead. Okay, I'll take it. That's what screenwriters will say that, like when they talk about like advice for screenwriters and it's always like, don't slave over your script. Like just try to bang out in two, three days, the bones of the first draft of the thing and then worry about filling in all the color later, but try to bang out the structure, all the beats.

1:55:57Bill Simmons:And you'll hear like people will write the first drafts of movies, like famous movies that we know about in like two or three days. Cause they're just like, I'm putting my head down and going and I'm banging all of it out and I'm going to trust my fingers and see where it goes. And I have a general idea. I don't know that, that, that became as I got older, the part that terrified me, which I think happens to everybody, but not to you because you're still writing. Well, and then we became podcasters. So it's all kind of, it's deadline. Cause it's easier to podcast. It is way easier to podcast. It's way easier.

1:56:29Bill Simmons:And I still put a lot of the beats and the thoughts and stuff I would do, but it's not even remotely as, I don't know, impactful as writing something that people could read that you're actually... I think the thing that worries me about some of the writing now is people, I think there's a sameness to a lot of this stuff. And, um, and I don't mean that in a bad way or a good way. It's just, I think people are so used to writing emails and texts and whatever that when they write, they're like, here are my thoughts. And they kind of put the thoughts and they structure them a certain way. The stuff we grew up with, people would be like, here are my thoughts.

1:57:10Bill Simmons:They're over here. now I'm going to figure out how to tell you my thoughts, but I'm going to use some sort of fun innovation or gimmick or thought, or I'm going to take these thoughts and twist them, or I'm going to take the way you thought I was going, I'm going to zag the other way. And that was part of what we loved. All the great writers that we loved, the sports writers or culture writers or whatever, they all had that second thing. And now you kind of don't need it in 2026. it's like here's my premise boom I'm going it's almost a badge of honor to do the Axios thing like here's some here's some bullet points yeah let's forget all that fancy lead and you know a zag let's just go straight down the list well don't you think part of it is a fear of if this doesn't work I'm gonna be made fun of tomorrow and it's way easier for a writer to be made fun of in 2026 and really 2020 and 2016 and 11 I guess so.

1:58:05I feel like I don't see the purple pros ridicule as much as I did maybe like 10, 15 years ago. Yeah. Just because maybe because there's not that much of it at all. And by the way, what you're talking about, what we grew up with and we were doing when we were younger in this business, Bill. Yeah. Like sometimes you do that and you'd be like, wow, that was just, that was terrible. Like that gimmick I came up with was really stupid.

1:58:29Bill Simmons:Yeah. But that's the thing. You're not going to bat a hundred percent on gimmicks, you know? But it would also sometimes unlock something and be like, ooh, that got to a different level than I could have gotten to if I just told it straight. Yeah, one of the things I used to do on my old website, I used to have these characters, Murph and Soey, that I would talk about Boston sports through. And I would just write these dialogues of the way, and I would try to make it like a bunch of the way I was talking to my friends when I lived in Boston. I would never do that now. And I don't even know if it worked.

1:58:58Bill Simmons:But I really liked it. And some of them worked. Some of them didn't. But I was like, fuck it. I'll do another Murph and Sully. And now I don't think I would, it would never even occur to me to do it. You would never do like a fake. You're reading Mike Royko and Jimmy Breslin. What's my version? Fake dialogue pieces. When's the last time you read one? But some of them ends up, but it seems like in general, especially in the Substack era now, you're writing for people who really like you and you're getting that audience, but then how do you pull other people in? It's going to be the big question, I think, of the next five to 10 years.

1:59:37I think so too. And also if you're writing for an audience that likes you, how do you challenge the audience that likes you? Right. They're there because you give them a widget. And what happens when the widget isn't something they want or something they like? I mean, the old way you work for a paper, you work for a magazine, and part of it was just crossing up the audience sometimes. just like, ah, you thought I was going to write this today, huh? Right. Bam. Yeah. Eat that. Send your letters to the editor jerk, you know, and, and you just kind of live with it. Right. And that was part of the way you made your reputation of being a little bit unpredictable and saying, I'm not, I'm not going to do what you think.

2:00:14I got, I got more pitches here. Right. And I do wonder now if the changeup is as common as it was, because again, people expect a certain thing, you know, and, and, and challenging them that way. You're like, oh, so not like people are going to unsubscribe from the paper because you wrote that column, but they might unsubscribe from the sub stack. It's true. If you piss them off enough.

2:00:37Bill Simmons:Do you subscribe to sub stacks more for information or for, um, the, the quality of the writing itself? A little bit of both. I think what I do is I try to recapture what I liked about the old world and sub stacks. There's a, uh, uh cowboys one that i just love because it's just like here's the cowboys column yeah that i that i that i crave on it's like this guy named bob stern but it's like you know here's the here's the one about the call about the offense combat defense the preview for the big game that's like really stat stat driven but also like well written and i'm like yeah this is what i want this is what i need in my life right you can go out and seek out the thing i like obviously we have a lot of writing on the ringer.com, which I'm very proud of.

2:01:19Bill Simmons:I get excited when I see, you know, all the, all the angles that people could come up with have been done at this point after we've been on the internet now for 30 years. But I, I always get excited when somebody executes the angle, correct. Like Austin Gale had a piece. He did the, uh, the take meter with the, with the different things going on. And I read when I texted him, I was like, that was just really good. You should be proud of that. Like you, you had the right things, you wrote them correctly. You had good jokes in there. And like, that's, that's what we do. And sometimes, sometimes that's, that's, that's the win with this stuff, but I don't, will it ever be like 2011 again?

2:01:57Bill Simmons:I don't know. You mean the, when we launched Grantland? No, just that era of, of how many writers were coming up, everybody, like the energy behind it, um, and all the different styles. And I, I just, I wonder if we'll ever have that many writers again trying that many different things. I don't think so. Because everybody was coming up as a writer. Right. You weren't coming up as a podcaster yet. Well, and also people were reading back then. People were reading. Maybe reading will come back. Jessalyn Book Club's happening. You're keeping it alive on Instagram. Movies are back. Baseball's back.

2:02:34Why not reading?

2:02:36Bill Simmons:Reading's next. It's going to be unbelievable. My wife would say reading never left because she loves audiobooks. And a lot of people she knows who get older, when they drive around, they either listen to podcasts or audiobooks. So there's those people. I think my reading has bounced back. My young parent years were pretty rough. Yeah. I could barely write. And that was kind of my first priority, much less sit down and read something I was interested in reading. But I've bounced back the last several years. What was the Brian Curtis Book Club? What was your book of the year so far, 2026? Oh, Regime Change, probably.

2:03:10Maggie Haberman and Jonathan Swan, just in terms of like a pure page turner, like, oh, wow, I just want to read. And I want to read this right now. Remember books you just wanted to read right now? Right. That was a time. Yeah. Maybe it'll come back.

2:03:24Bill Simmons:Maybe a lot of stuff will come back, including Charles Barkley. All right, Brian Curtis. The Press Box. Follow Brian Curtis. Who knows? There might be more stuff under his sleeve. You never know with this guy. What's your final Texas prediction, by the way, for the football season? I think 10-2 and in the playoff. And we'll see from there. 10-2. Even that's pretty bold because, man, the SEC is loaded this year. It's a tough schedule. All right. Great to see you as always. We'll see you in the office. Great to see you, Bill. All right. That's it for the podcast. Thanks to Kirk and Brian. Thanks to Gahal and Eduardo and Chris from the ringer side as well.

2:04:01Bill Simmons:I'm going to be back on Thursday with an action-packed football podcast, but probably a little baseball too. So stay tuned for that. See you in a couple days.

2:04:14I don't have feelings with them On the wayside

2:04:52Bill Simmons:Thank you. help.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelpline ma.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24 seven support in Massachusetts or call 877-8-HOPE-NY or text HOPE-NY in New York for Louisiana. Call 877-770-7867.