New York Wins the Title, Brunson Wins Immortality, and Knicks Fans Have a Zihuatanejo Moment With Zach Lowe

21:40Bill Simmons:Michelob Ultra Superior is worth playing for. Enter now at MichelobUltra.com slash Quartzsite. Michelob Ultra Quartzsite 2526. No purchase necessary. Open to US Residents 21+. Begins on October 1st of 2025. Ends on June 30th, 2026. Multiple entry periods. See official rules at makelobaltra.com slash courtside for free entry, entry deadlines and prizes and details. Now it's time for our with the assist segment and it's presented by State Farm on the court. No one does it alone. The biggest moments often come from teammates working together, which is my favorite kind of basketball. I'm not a nice old ball guy.

22:18Bill Simmons:One player setting up the other at just the right time. This season, the NBA has given us plenty of duos who made that connection look effortless. Normally you would say Murray and Jokic for this because I think they brought the best out of each other and won the 23 title together. This year, I think my favorite combo has probably been Castle and Wemby on those hard rolls that Wemby does when Castle's out of anyone on the Spurs, I think is the best at putting it right near the basket for him. And he got to the point during the finals where the Knicks just started shoving Wemby as he was going for the alley-oop and just taking the non-shooting foul for it.

22:55Bill Simmons:I'm probably gonna have to change the rules, but I like the way Castle and Wembe work together. And I think that's my pick for favorite up and coming combo. Maybe they could be like Jokic and Murray someday, just like on the court. It helps to know someone has your back when the most unexpected thing might happen. That's where State Farm comes in. They've got easy to use digital tools like the State Farm app, which is excellent. And neighborhood State Farm agents when you wanna talk to a real human being. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there with the assist. Coverage options are selected by the customer.

23:27Bill Simmons:Availability and eligibility vary by state. I got a text from my friend, Mark Cimino, who just said, incredible, my life has changed. And I think I went through this as a Red Sox fan, obviously, in 2004. You're going to go through it when Croatia wins the World Cup in six weeks. That's a long shot. You really do feel like your life has changed. I mean, I wrote a whole book about it. You feel like there's a, there's a piece that comes over it, that the fear when you get older, that you're, you're just going to die and never see it, or that your, your parents are going to die and they're never going to see it or your buddy, your older buddy or your uncle.

24:09Bill Simmons:And you know, when, when the moment happens, you start thinking about all of these moments you've had in life, all these people, you know, and, uh, there's just, there's no experience like it, but the problem is you have to really suffer and suffer for your entire life. And that's what makes it special, unfortunately. But this is where we are at the Knicks fans. What was the best text you got? I'm just getting people at the game and mostly just gibberish. Yeah, Sam Morrill, a great Sando comedian, just texted me, dude, dude, what a team. What someone else, unreal. Just stuff. It's just Knicks fans beside themselves.

24:47Bill Simmons:Just become inco here. I'm sure New York City is going to be incredible tonight. I was thinking, what's the next? Who replaces them now as our really sad, pathetic drought team with generations of fans? It's probably Phoenix, right? I'll give you the candidates. Phoenix, Utah, Clippers, Sacramento, Atlanta. You have Indiana Nets who won ABA titles. You have the Blazers that haven't won since 77. You have Washington, 78. Philly, 83. And then you have Charlotte, New Orleans, and Memphis that don't have the giant fan base to pull this off. Did you mention Minnesota? Oh, and Minnesota's in there too.

25:25Bill Simmons:I guess Minnesota... They have great fans. Yeah, and they also haven't won a title of any kind since the 91 Twins, I don't think. Yeah, no, they have not. And they got jobbed in the WNBA Finals two springs ago, which I still remember you, Minnesota. Yeah, Minnesota's up there. I would say Phoenix, though, who has just been in the mix decade after decade after decade and has had some really tough beats and some really great players, and it just never happened. They also don't have the amount of fans the Knicks have. Yeah, that's the thing. There's no team. I mean, really, only the Lakers could travel like this, and I don't even think Lakers fans would travel to quite this extent.

26:05I agree. Particularly in the finals where they're traveling far. Of those teams you mentioned, again, no one has the fan base. This is a small market team. I think Utah deserves a little bit of a hearing because like the Knicks, they had these iconic players that were just stopped by Jordan over and over again, right? Like, or not twice in the finals, but just couldn't get over the hump. And they were largely very good for a long time. They've obviously had a down few years as they've tanked now. I think I might pick them.

26:34Bill Simmons:I wish the Clippers had more fans because that's a great one because that goes back as long. They were an expansion team, I think right around when Phoenix came in the league. And then the Kings, who... I just know. Well, but they were Cincinnati. That's true. They were Kansas City slash Omaha. I don't think they've won since they were Rochester in the early 50s was the last one for them. Atlanta would be a fun one. But yeah, we'll never see anything like this in the NBA game. Because when the Red Sox won, we still had the Cubs and the Indians on deck. In this case, no. All right. Do you have more Knicks stuff or do you want to move to the Spurs here?

27:13Bill Simmons:Yeah. Go in more on the Knicks if you have anything else you want to hit. I'm just always big on, you just got to let it sink in. You got to luxuriate in the team that just wanted to. This is New York City, man. This is like, this is New York freaking city. And this is a team that unites the city. Why I lived for 20 years, and I wish I lived there still now. There's no other, not even the Yankees, I don't think, unite the city like this. No, there's too many Mets fans. The Knicks are the city's team. Apologies to Brooklyn. It's just true. And it's been on fire. I mean, I was there all this week for games three and four, staying in a hotel the whole the whole time.

27:59The city is like absolutely on fire. It could not be understated how crazy this is. And like, yes, there have been some misbehaving fans, deplorable stuff like that happens in every city. Don't let bottom feeders. Don't let that represent like what's going on in the West Village and Williamsburg and all these places where there are watch parties. It's an absolutely incredible moment in New York City. My wife and I are sitting here like lamenting that we no longer live there and that we can't go outside. Like I just want to go outside. I'm not even a Knicks fan. I actually grew up hating the Knicks, ironically.

28:31I just want to go outside and see something. And in the burbs, you go outside and you see fucking squirrels and deer running around. And there's no one honking their cars. There's nothing. It's just incredible. And like, you can't say enough about Brunson. You can't say enough about how they built the team. The Josh Hart trade just sort of sneaks under the radar all the time is like how they got Josh Hart. And then, you know, Brunson taking less money to facilitate everything, just everything clicked into place. And even a guy like Shamit who couldn't miss for six weeks, basically, just scrap heap guy.

29:02And I think like, again, this is a, this is a historical thing, but this is up your alley. I tried to find a comp for them in terms of like, you probably saw this on Instagram, like good, right? There were a very good regular season team, 53 wins. That's like low for a champion. Then that's, and then to go from that to, I'm looking at the finals number now, 16 and three with a net rating of plus 15.4. I mean, that, that, that's, I think the greatest net rating in the history of the playoffs for a championship team. it's up there with like it's it's above not win loss wise but like it's 17 warriors it's 96 bulls like it's all the greatest teams ever are the only ones that are in that universe of so few losses and such a big point differential they just turned into an absolute bulldozer and i don't want it what i don't want to hear and i've seen a little bit of this as well they didn't have to play boston they didn't have to play oklahoma city stop boston that happens every year boston got exposed by Philly why are we sitting here thinking Boston was this great juggernaut that was going to really like push the Knicks I think they would have pushed the Knicks harder than Philly because Philly was injured but they got exposed San Antonio beat Oklahoma City Oklahoma City was banged up and the Knicks just beat them four out of five times like just give them just give them the credit it's an all-time dominant postseason run and it puts them in a position where and this is more in your wheelhouse than mine I don't really think there's a single season team quite like this ever in the NBA who was good and then turned into whatever the hell this is.

30:37Bill Simmons:I can't think of one either. I think what, what the amazing thing to me, it was like Doc Rivers texted me during the fourth quarter and he was just like, this is a replay of all the other finals games. And I was like, you're right. Because this is, the Knicks are almost like playing karaoke of the other games that they've had where it's just like, oh, they're going to do the part where they're going to fall behind by 13. It's like watching those CSI episodes where you're like, oh, at the 40-minute mark, now I bet this guy, now we're going to find out maybe he actually knew the victim. And that's what they did over and over again.

31:12Bill Simmons:I'm with you. First of all, you know I hate, though. You never played anybody thing. You can only play who's in front of you. Second, San Antonio is minus 200 to win the, minus 190 to win the series. And we were all saying during the last round, OKC San Antonio is going to decide the finals. I certainly felt that way. We were an O-star. Don't we me on that. Don't we me on that one. I felt that way. A lot of people felt that way. We were all like the finals going to go through the West. I thought of the five best teams. The Knicks were the only good East team. And I think Denver and Minnesota were up there with San Antonio.

31:46Bill Simmons:I think those were the five best teams in the league. Now, they only played one, but I don't hold them against them. And I thought San Antonio was an awesome team. That was one of the scariest defensive teams we've had in the finals in the last 20 years. They turned Philly and Cleveland into freaking mush. Like, just get out of here. You don't even belong in the same league as us. And those were teams that fought tooth and nail to beat other good teams in the Eastern Conference, including the top seed, including a popular finals pick. And the Knicks just squashed them, humiliated them, embarrassed them out of the playoffs.

32:20And it was like, you don't even belong on the same floor with us. Go home, James Harden. By the way, James Harden just sneaking into the news today. Just, just speaking right in.

32:30Bill Simmons:Guns loaded. Well, I'll get, I'll tell you this to credit the Knicks. They are changing. I think, I think they are lighting a little fire on some of the East teams because this is sustainable for the Knicks. I think for at least the next two years, right? And if you're Boston, you have to change how you play, which is basically what Steven said at the press conference right after the season ended. We can't play this way anymore. We have to be more inside out. The Knicks have the ability to play inside out, to hit threes. But Brunson, in a lot of ways, became their inside-outside guy. He was the guy getting all the points in the paint, a little bit of bridges, a little bit of Towns.

33:11It was terrible.

33:13Bill Simmons:That was Minnesota Towns tonight. Now, they didn't get the friendliest whistle ever, but it didn't matter. I will say three times in two games, a Wembenyama foul was reviewed and turned into a Towns foul. I didn't like the first two of them, which one was in game four. And the first one tonight, I did not understand at all. Like, Wembenyama gets called for a foul, like kind of karate chops Towns, and then Towns hooks him. But the chop comes first, which is like— Proceeds the foul, yeah. And it precedes the hook, and you go back and review it. can you not just review that and say it's a no call, we're wiping it away, successful challenge, now to foul on Wembenyama, I gotta make it a foul on Towns, I thought he got a raw whistle in these last two games, and we have not even gotten to the fact that we are again for the second straight game the league is gonna be spared the number one talking point between games five and six being is Wembenyama gonna be suspended for game six because of a flagrant foul review on the landing spot thing, I mean like they're spared this whole officiating discussion because the Knicks saved their ass on it I had that in my notes.

34:17Bill Simmons:He would have gotten suspended. I saw all this conspiracy. Oh, they'll never suspend them. They'll find a way around it. He would have gotten suspended. I think he would 100 % would have gotten suspended between them not upgrading the mush of Jalen Brunson to a flagrant, which like, I don't understand what their reasoning was for that. And like the outcry of that, I think I agree with you. I think he was going to get suspended for game six. And now, thankfully we don't have to live in a world where the Knicks win game six with no Wemby and everything's a little, not tainted, but just feels a little like we didn't get the sendoff that we should have gotten.

34:48Bill Simmons:There were a lot of calls I didn't like against the Knicks today. It should be mentioned. It was 28-19 Knicks free throw advantage in that game. Yeah. I felt like they got hosed on six or seven calls. I thought the not calling the foul on Brunson. I mean, when Brunson's trying to dribble the clock out with 10 seconds left waiting for them to foul him, gets hacked. There's three refs there. All of them miss it and the ball goes to Bridges. That just could have been a steal the other way for the game-tying layup. And we would have been like, oh, let's look at the replay. Daniel-san karate chopping Brunson.

35:23Bill Simmons:That was terrible. I can't believe they missed Wemby going under Brunson's feet. They never missed that call ever. They make that call 100 times out of 100 during this season. There's three refs. None of them missed the call. He fell down. It was terrible. And I don't know how you don't review that later. Well, they could review it later, but it would just have been between games. It's funny. Right. Or it's a timeout, you can't review it? I don't know. When I first watched it naked eye, I actually didn't. I saw Brunson kick his leg out a little bit, and I thought, okay, maybe that's what they saw.

35:58And then on the replay, it's much more clear that that should have been a foul and a flavor foul. And it was just not called. And then there was like the OG and an OB phantom loose ball foul after a scramble rebound very late in the game. And we're like, I'm not even sure what Scott Foster was looking at. But look, the Knicks. And you can sit here and do the foul count and the free throw count and whatever. It's like the fouls on Towns are so pivotal. And so he is such a bedrock in terms of how the Knicks play. And coming into this game, the Knicks were plus 48 with Towns on the floor and minus 40 with Towns off the floor.

36:32that I don't really care if the rest of the calls are even or lean to the Knicks' favor because those calls by themselves are so pivotal. And three times in two games, not only is a Wembenyama foul erased, it's then turned into a foul on Towns. And I thought two of the three were bad calls or just like wipe it away, no call it. The third one was a clear foul when he shoved some who shoved Wembenyama into a Knicks player.

36:59Bill Simmons:We were texting near the end of halftime and I was texting you that I thought the Knicks were going to win, which I was texting you all day. And you texted back, hold on, I want to see what happens with these three Towns fouls. And like... Instantaneously, by the time you got the text. Yeah, I got the text that he was fouling somebody. Foster had that awful call on OG, the fifth foul. It was... Brunson had just made a layup. It was 83-83. OG had that weird loose ball call. And I wrote down in my notes at that point, And it was starting to give me flashbacks to time to bring a Celtics team into this.

37:34Bill Simmons:Game five, 2008 finals. Celts up 3-1. It's in LA. It's 2-3-2. My dad and I are in the stands. We think the Celts are going to win. And in the second half, the Celts just got hosed. It was the game where Ray Allen fouled out, hit 5 ,000 the second half. Paul Pierce had 5 ,000 the second half. And I was like, I feel like we're reliving that, where they're just going to take OG and Towns out of this game. And as it turned out, it didn't matter because Jalen Brunson just could not be stopped for a long, long time. And then really on San Antonio's side, nothing happened. But I'm looking at guys I bolded down the stretch.

38:12Bill Simmons:OG had a dunk. Brunson had a floater. Mitch had that offensive rebound. OG had a free throw. Bridges had free throw. All the guys kind of tripped in. A lot of nervy free throws at the end for both teams. A lot of like, by the way, I get it. I mean, maybe it was a nerd. sometimes you just miss. But boy, if you put me at the line right there, I might pee my pants and go 0 for 2 on two air balls and run off the court never to be seen again. The one I was positive of was Harper missing the first one when they were down three with like eight seconds left. I was like, I feel like the guy misses that 90 % of the time down the stretch.

38:45Bill Simmons:We had a couple big, at least two big Josh Hart shots in the fourth quarter. Want to shout out? He's kind of their no-no yes guy. but yeah so when you look at the other Knicks OG goes 3 of 11 yeah but I'm just going big picture you had him as finals MVP after game 4 which I thought was aggressive I think it was like 60-40 because Brunson is the engine you know my stance the best guy to me unless he's awful has to get it after this game there were just no questions about it. But again, now that it's over, is the Ananobi tip the greatest play in the history of Knicks basketball? I mean, greatest in history of Knicks basketball.

39:36It's one of the greatest plays in the history of basketball.

39:39Bill Simmons:I think it's the discussion would be of basketball, for me, for the professional basketball NBA. Is it one of the 10 best, most important plays in the history of the league? And I think you could argue that it was. Now you're saying like non game seven versus game seven. No, we were so two categories. Well, no, we were, I sent you a text from when my buddy, Doug, who's a genius and he was, it is a math genius. And we, he was asking to me, like, do you think the Ananobi tip is the single biggest non game seven swing play in terms of finals odds? And then he showed me his math about how much it swung finals odds.

40:15And, uh, I, he said, give me some other candidates. and the only one I gave him a bunch and the only one that he mathematically said was as close to that big of an odd swing was Robert Ory shot in game five in 2005 Pistons Spurs which turned a two-point Pistons lead into a one-point Spurs win but yeah I mean like it's it's up there and just it's just it's just made for cinema he's flying through the air above everybody else sprinting in with the kind of urgency that is like, I will die to win this game and gets his hand on it perfectly, softly. Nobody else touches it, only him. Only he's high enough to get it.

40:58And you know what's going in as soon as he hits it. He's got a preposterous level of touch and control on it. As soon as, I mean, I was there, I was watching it, I was standing up in awe. It's like, as soon as I saw him running, I was like, oh my God, he's going to tip this thing in.

41:15Bill Simmons:so I did the pod right afterwards and then was kept watching that whole sequence over and over again the next morning I think it's one of the craziest fluke it might even be a crazier fluke but also great play than the Ray Allen shot because remember the Ray Allen shot all the guys that what was it the that led to the layup or no it was the LeBron three before the Ray Allen shot when all five Spurs had a chance for the rebound. And it's like, you could do this a thousand times and this might be the one time where you don't get the rebound. Not to mention that Ray Allen was the guy in the corner who had practiced the backpedaling.

41:54Bill Simmons:Like all those things that happen, it's like one in a million that team, that moment. So the Knicks, you have to have the Spurs fucking up like the defensive coverage. Did you see that camera from behind the basket of them kind of not knowing who to cover? I did. And it ends up, and I think that was legitimate where they kind of did, oh, I thought, oh, they're playing him and they're kind of scrambling right before and Wemby ends up on Brunson, which I don't, I can't imagine. Do you think that was the intention at all for him to be 30 feet from the basket? They're up one. I don't think so. That said, I don't think there was enough scrutiny or just curious questioning of, did you need to double team Jalen Brunson with Victor Wemby?

42:38I mean, I think that was a in all the attention on the Fox blunder that preceded that, which was all very deserved. And by the way, I've seen some defenses of that decision by Fox, which to me are nonsensical. We can talk about that if you want. But I don't think that, and I don't know who called for the double. I assume the coaches yelled for him to go do it. I'm like, it's a unanimous defensive player of the year. There's four seconds left in the game. He's just going to take a three. I don't know what you're panicking about.

43:06Bill Simmons:You don't need Wemby to come out. If anything, you have to be worried about some sort of tip. So anyway, Wemby comes out. That's lucky break number one. Lucky break number two, Brunson shoots it fast, and it has to hit the front of the rim and ricochet right toward where OG's going, right? And OG's jumping, jumps seven feet full speed. But you still need the ball to ricochet. If it hits the back of the rim, he's by it. He might be able to get it with his left thing, but it almost has to bounce the way it is. and then for him to just kind of tap it back the way he did, I think that's like a one in 100 ,000 play, those three things all together.

43:45Bill Simmons:Not to mention Wemby could have blocked the Brunson shot. The only thing is Towns was right there for the tip-in of the OG tip, and I wonder if he would have tipped it in. So you have that, and then you also have the Spurs having Harper inbound the pass at the end on a play that would have worked, and Towns tips it. and like why wasn't Wemby inbounding that because you're using him as a decoy for the play the lob the lob threat right like how about Cornette could Cornette not throw why do you have somebody who's six inches shorter than the guy guarding him not to mention Towns brings the guys over the fans to to kind of crowd Harper which I've never seen in a modern NBA game in the last 30 years but I thought that was crazy too you can do a documentary about the last 10 minutes of that 10 seconds of that game.

44:32Oh my, you sure could.

44:34Bill Simmons:Because then the Fox decision, like you could, it's like an hour of analysis. The Fox decision, I saw a couple of analytics people being like, this is unfair criticism. It's a totally analytically sound decision. Here's the math of like, well, he could put him up three of this and that. The reason why it was a bad decision, and I don't know if he could have killed as much clock as people think because OG was coming to foul him real fast. But the reason why, it's a bad decision, despite whatever analytics you can conjure about it, is even if he just makes one out of two free throws, which is part of the analytical argument for why it's not a horrible decision, well, he could miss a free throw, he could miss both free throws and blah, blah, blah, expected points for this and that.

45:16Then you're up two, and the tip does not lose you the game. You still have a chance to win it in overtime. There's just such an enormous, one point is such an enormous difference that if that's all you get, it still matters. Zero is what you can't get. And he did pretty much the only thing that put zero in a probable position to happen, and that was challenge Ananobi at the rim and lose.

45:41Bill Simmons:I don't know why he did it. I don't know why he wanted to challenge Ananobi. I don't know how he couldn't have scored on the left side of the basket when he's left-handed. But the OG block slash tip. So I was watching, I watched the end of Buck's son's game five to try to remember the Drew play and the sequence of, And the Bucs are up like 10 with three minutes left. They kind of blow the game, leading to Booker, who had been hot in that game, with a chance to win. And Drew does the strip, comes back down, and throws that crazy alley-oop to Giannis, who's almost by the rim and dunks it anyway.

46:19Bill Simmons:And I was thinking, like, if he had fucked up that alley-oop or Giannis, whatever, like, he would have gotten all the same De 'Aaron Fox criticism. But guess what? It worked. and if Fox had scored to go up three, we would have been like, great play by Fox. I don't think we would have. I think we would have been like, ooh, that was risky. He's lucky. Risky, great play by Fox, yeah. I was watching the 1990 Game 2 Finals, Pistons-Blazers. Of course you were. Why wouldn't you be watching that? Well, it got served to me on Twitter because apparently I was watching last-second plays and this popped up, but this was the Danny Young game.

46:54Bill Simmons:Remember this? No, I don't think so, but I'll remember when you described to me. Which finals was it? Blazers, Blazers. Pistons, Blazers. That's the one where the Pistons win all the games in Portland. Pistons are up one. They inbound it. They break the press. For some reason, Gerald Henderson decides to score a layup with like three seconds left instead of just dribbling at the clock. There's no Blazers. All the Blazers are up trying to steal it. The Blazers inbound it and Danny Young just gets a wide open three, but it's like a split second after the buzzer. And it was kind of as dumb as the Fox play, but it didn't.

47:30Bill Simmons:My point is, guys have brain farted like this over and over again in the playoffs. It's hard, man. These guys are tired. The amount of energy it takes to play these games is astonishing and unimaginable to regular people. And it affects your brain a little bit. And also, you're built with such confidence and you're such an elite athlete that he justifiably thinks, I'm quick enough to get this shot onto the backboard before, before he gets to it. And he didn't. And like, it's understandable. It's, it's like a very explainable brain fart, but a disastrous brain fart. It's not explainable as the point guard.

48:05Bill Simmons:The point guard is the smartest guy on the team. Allegedly. He's the game manager. He's the guy who he's the quarterback. He's the guy who makes the right decisions. Right. Cam Johnson. I saw on Tommy's pod was defending Darren Fox. He was just like, you guys don't understand like how fast everything goes when you're playing basketball. And it's like, they get a steal, the ball pumps out. It's not like you have a lot of time to process what's happening. First, he's got to chase the ball. He's in real time measuring OG behind him. But, you know, I guess my thing is, I don't think the Spurs would have won this series anyway, regardless of that play.

48:39Bill Simmons:Because I think, I really felt like they started to get exposed as the series get along. Look at what happened today. They lost by four. I know, but how many guys on the Spurs did you trust by midway through game five. We lost all our confidence in Fox. Their entire bench was out. Cornette was unplayable. They couldn't really play Carter Bryant. Keldon Johnson, six minute of the year, was just doing nothing. You go on down the line, it's like, I can't find six guys I trust on this team. Not to mention the big fundamental issue with them was they got to give the car keys to Harper and they just wouldn't do it.

49:13Bill Simmons:They were hesitant to do that. And I think that was one of the things that cost them the series. Well, it is interesting for a team that was ahead of schedule and has a ton to be proud of and is like two boneheaded plays away from this series probably still going on into game six. It does feel like there's a surprising amount of potential fallout in San Antonio, just in terms of maybe not immediate, but just like the Fox question is arriving maybe faster than they thought it might. I would say it's arrived. I think people are getting off the train. Well, I mean, I said after game four that I was having lunch with an agent in New York and we were talking about like, because Harper's been so sensational.

49:55And that's part of the Fox question too, is Harper. And he said, you know, how soon do you think like the Spurs start thinking about or taking calls or listening or whatever? And I said, look, it feels early because his extension doesn't even kick in yet. And they just made the finals and they're going to have to lick their wounds if they lose this series. but that contract is so big and so long that like if a team called me this off season and just gave me like a fair-ish offer for it i i we gotta have a meeting about it because this was bad and i he's got a high ankle sprain but this series was really bad in every possible way pretty much and harper was just sensational and you could argue like we've almost already gotten what we hope to get out of Fox, which is like veteran mentorship, a long playoff run that didn't quite get all the way.

50:45Now I just got like four more years on a huge extension coming up. I don't know. That's fallout. Keldon Johnson's a free agent. That's fallout. Just completely fell apart in the finals and didn't have a great playoffs overall. He had a bad playoffs. It can be interesting.

51:02Bill Simmons:The thing with Fox, for people listening who don't know the size of the contract, um, maybe take a seat, even if you're sitting, it's four years to 21. And I had a bunch of people over the last couple of days texting me, like just people that aren't doing what we do for a living, but just basketball fans. Like, so they're going to trade Fox. Where's he going to go? Go through the teams. Like it's, it's hard to find four teams that need an expensive point guard. Like you'd be like, Oh, Orlando, he'd be good there. Well, cool. Orlando's already like way over the tax. They're going to be a second apron team.

51:35Bill Simmons:And they're not trading Franz Wagner for Darren Fox. I'm sorry. Right. Right. That one goes into the David Stern veto. Yeah. That's like the league steps in. What they're looking at is something like Minnesota wondering if they'll take the last year Julius Randall's deal and DiFincenzo, who has a torn Achilles. I honestly think that's what they're looking at for that contract I think you're looking at can we get expirings back and we're probably getting the one or two worse guys in the trade we might have to throw a pick in it Atlanta is interesting because they're going to have cap space need a point guard and maybe have like the Kispert contract and Risa Shea but I couldn't find a deal that I really liked.

52:24Bill Simmons:So I think he's going to be on San Antonio next year. That's what I meant by fair-ish in terms of like, if it's like neutral to us and we don't have to give up a pick, like I got to at least have a meeting about it. But then you go through the teams. And of course, irony of all ironies, a team that absolutely could use an expensive, good point guard and does desperate things all the time is the Sacramento Kings. And I feel like that's probably not going to happen. Yeah, definitely not happen. Well, here's the other problem with Fox. Like as a trade asset, But this draft is like legendary for how many point guards are in it.

52:54And the Kings are in that range.

52:55Bill Simmons:Five guys who could potentially be starting as point guards, not to mention like some of the guys that have come in the last two years. So I think he's going to be on the team. And I don't really know. I don't know how they get out of that one. The only thing I threw out, and I don't really see the exact scenario for it, but you mentioned Atlanta. my, like, there, like, is, is there a team that gets Giannis that has to trade so much for him that is like, all right, we just need another good player in the door. And this is guys gettable and he fits well. Like that's, but I, even that is a hard deal to construct.

53:29Bill Simmons:There was one, there was one that caught my attention as I was flying through the spot track teams, John Morant. He's, he's in that same sort of boat, right? And if you're the Spurs, you just basically, that's all I could think. Oh, no, the Spurs are not trading for John Morant. No, but you get him and then you try to flip him and it's basically a three-team deal, you know. Anyway. I don't think that's happening. This episode is brought to you by LinkedIn. For small business, every hire matters, but the time and resources required to hire right are limited. Luckily, LinkedIn Hiring Pro is built for that reality.

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56:39Bill Simmons:So the Spurs have two of the worst finals losses this century in less than a week, including... I almost said which two. I mean, they just all felt so... Yeah, the one today was like a walk in the park compared to some of the other ones. I did a thing about after game two about how they've had and this is before game four how they had had their five worst playoff losses or worse than anyone else's five worst playoff losses and then they added a sixth one to that I don't know where you start with them when you're thinking about the season because they're a little like the Patriots win the Super Bowl.

57:21Bill Simmons:Whereas after the Super Bowl and the Patriots got killed, I almost wish they hadn't made the Super Bowl. It's like we should have been better off losing the AFC title game. If the Spurs just lose an OKC in Game 7, we have no questions. We're like, ah, they're too young. OKC's really good. That's the way it worked out. But now it opens up a whole bunch of stuff. We've almost gotten to the hour mark without talking about them yet. But this was an incredibly disappointing Wemby series. It just was. But for future of the league, face of the league, all that stuff, this was, I think, a catastrophe for all those storylines.

57:55Bill Simmons:It was. I think that's a little strong. Yeah, we're passing the torch from Jordan to LeBron to Wemby, and I'm included. I have my hand pushing toward him, and he just wasn't nearly good enough or impactful enough. He wasn't. So I disagree with you in two senses. I don't think he was catastrophically bad. I think he was a little disappointing. Defensively, I think he was, like, tonight he was fantastic for two and a half quarters defensively, and I think faded a little bit at the end. He averaged 26 a game on 42 % shooting, 27 % on threes, 11 rebounds, three and a half blocks. I agree in the aggregate.

58:31It's disappointing, and we can talk about why and what parts of his game kind of faded in and out of some of these games. Like, tonight, for instance, I thought in the first half he was just not rolling to the rim enough, It was just settling for pops and pop twos and drives that were never going to work in this series. And for some reason, just doesn't yet have the confidence or the consistency. And just like the simple poor Zingas shot where all else fails. I just catch the ball 15 feet face up and shoot over you. Like that should just be a much bigger part of his diet than it is.

59:00Bill Simmons:He's passing them up. Especially the 18 footers. But I had this argument with people throughout the finals. I think just story-wise, narrative-wise, this is the best. This is a better outcome for the league. The Knicks win. They end the 53-year drought. Total jubilation in New York City. History, all the alums are there. Ewing's there. The ghosts are exercise, all of that. And Wemby gets some battle scars and gets embarrassed a little bit in some big moments and has to go back. It felt too soon for him to already conquer the league. And now we get an offseason of reckoning with the turnover in game two.

59:40Reckoning with shooting 42%, 7 of 19, I think, tonight. And some scars, some stuff to build on. Missed free throws in game four in New York. I just think it's a cool, not cooler, but just certainly a more literary arc than if he had just sort of walked into, not walked into, Just like, I'm already the best. We're already champions. New York, you lose again.

1:00:03Bill Simmons:To be fair, I wasn't saying his play was catastrophic. I was saying the storyline arc of him being the next guy and here it is and he has now arrived. I think it's really flipped over the last, I just know anecdotally with people in my life, he is now, he's basically had an entire career of narratives in the spate of two months where now it's like, Like, can he play more than 30 minutes in a playoff game without wearing down? Why is the first half so different than the second half? What about some of the dirty stuff? Like, the Knicks fans hate Wemby now. It's really interesting. Like, they're just like that.

1:00:42Bill Simmons:Even the play with Brunson today. I got so many people in my life were like, Hey, there he is. He did it again. This is a guy that went into the last two rounds of the playoffs kind of with a unanimous approval rating that now I think there's questions. I think there's, he's, he's got people that don't like them. It's just, that's what I mean. Like it's, it went from like, oh my God, this is definitely the next guy. Here we go. To now people going, huh, what do we actually have here? And what, is he going to get better? And what is he going to add? And can he play more than 30 minutes a game without worrying down?

1:01:13Bill Simmons:And I don't know. I just think he left with a lot of questions. I do think it's worth again, noting his team made the finals. And we just spent a lot of time talking about how the guards other than Harper were like a little bit scattershot, and Castle was very bad tonight too. He was in the finals. They beat OKC. The dirty stuff is interesting because clearly when he feels like he's getting beat up, there is a risk of him losing his temper. I mean, just ask Nas Reed. I do think some of the things, like the landing spot thing, and a couple of the elbows that end up getting into somebody's jaws, I think he's just very tall and his limbs are just going to get to places where he doesn't really expect them to be or you don't expect them to be.

1:01:59I think there's a little bit of that, but it is interesting. The top three players in the league in whatever order you want them all left us this season in slightly disappointing fashion. Jokic shoots 19 % from three in the first round and is just kind of not the same guy. Shea in the conference finals has an absolutely epic game seven, but ends up averaging 26 a game on 41 % shooting. And then Victor in the finals has a little bit of a letdown. It's just like, it's hard, man. Like, they all ran into stuff and it was hard. And they just, they didn't quite live up to their usual production.

1:02:35Bill Simmons:Here's where he should get dinged. Game four, Mitch goes for the kill, leaves him in, right? He plays a ton of minutes and he just dies down the stretch. He just couldn't handle that kind of minute load, workload, physicality. He just, he wilted. And part of it was because he probably didn't have the experience of playing minutes like that because they were really careful with him during the season. So it's like, give us your 30 best minutes. In the playoffs, you can't do that anymore. You got to get into the 40s. Look at Brunson tonight. Game five, if you're digging him, I think it's got to start with all the Towns foul trouble.

1:03:11Bill Simmons:Towns is out of this game. at the beginning of the third quarter, he's out now for the next, basically quarter and a third, right? How did Wemby not destroy the Knicks at that point? They didn't have a center. They had Mitch Robinson, who was terrible this whole series. They had bridges on him at one point. They put a small ball lineup on him. Like if you're supposed to be, now I sound like I'm like a fucking talking head, like doing this. No. But if you're supposed to be the guy, you're our next guy, here we come, we're about to hand the league to you, and they have a team that has no center out there.

1:03:46Bill Simmons:Why aren't you destroying them? I don't understand it. Okay, so in this particular game, the Knicks did play with no center for a couple of different stretches. They tried to time it to the Cornette minutes for just the reason that they know this is untenable against Wembenyama. And then I was a little surprised that they would bring Huck Portie in when Wembenyama came in. They were like, fuck it, we're just going to go small against Wembenyama, which surprised me. And I thought there was at least one play where I think, I can't remember which guard it was. I think it was Castle. Had him, it might have been Harper, had him on a lob and went for a two instead in the paint and missed.

1:04:21Like the lob was very clear there. He didn't throw it. Then there's another play where somebody just, he had bridges on him. And I think it was Fox just was like, throw the ball. And he threw the ball and he like caught it and laid it up and in. And at that exact moment, Mike Brown pointed to Mitchell Robinson. Can I get your ass off the bench? Yeah, you're back in. Here we go. So like they, it didn't last long and they did exploit it to the point that Mike Brown was immediately like, Like, yep, one bad. Like, they figured it out. Bring him, bring him. We need the big guy back in with the broken hand.

1:04:48Bill Simmons:So he's talking a lot of shit in the first half of game four when they're up, right? Oh, he was. That's not helping him either. I just think it's going to be interesting how this goes for him for the next couple months. Because first of all, he's American. He's not American. He's French. Second of all, English is the second language. And I think a couple times during the playoffs where he's just said things because he's saying things in the language that's not his. and the way it can just get cut and interpreted seems a lot more aggressive. What was that quote where it was like, we're going to come back and win or when they were down 3-1?

1:05:21Bill Simmons:Everybody knows we're going to do it. Yeah, I don't 100 % even know that's what he meant, but he's French. He's just trying to talk around. I think that's what he meant. I think he's just trying to be confident. But I thought if you're going to be the big bully and you're going to carry yourself like the big bully, you've got to do better in a game when Karl-Anthony Towns only plays half the game because he's in foul trouble the whole time. When it's 3-1, you've had two days rest. You can't wait in the rest thing. I just, I was really disappointed. But again, this is part of the process with the young guys.

1:05:52Bill Simmons:We saw it with Tatum in the 2022 finals. We saw it with LeBron in the 07 final. Like, this is it. This is the taster, and hopefully he vaults from this and goes up a level. But yeah, I thought there was a little more there offensively. I got to be honest. I mean, his rolls to the rim continue to be their best offense, right? And they got a ton of great threes that they missed on just him rolling to the rim. But yeah, you just, like he has these moves two or three times a game where he just decides, I'm scoring and I'm not going to settle for the shot you want me to take. I'm going to at least get to the dotted line and spin or fake a half spin and loft a little hookup or a jumper.

1:06:33And it goes in. You're like, why is there not more of that? I just keep coming back to the poor Zingas shot as like that should just be easy money for him as a failsafe. I will say -

1:06:43Bill Simmons:How about a jump hook? Can we throw a jump hook in there? You're 7 '6". He'll probably spend time with Olajuwon this summer and come back with stuff. Who knows? How about just go to the gym and shoot some jump hooks? Do we need Hakeem Olajuwon to teach you how to turn around and shoot? Like everyone has a jump hook. Anyone who's ever played basketball has one. I think this is all great that we're talking about this and he hasn't reached the mountaintop yet. And he's getting beat up a little bit by fans who say he's dirty. And like, we're talking about the lack of this go-to move or whatever. Yeah.

1:07:12And he had not only that, his shit talking to Mitchell Robinson early in game four, we said, I'm in your head. I'm in your head. And it backfired.

1:07:20Bill Simmons:Mistake. Reminds me a little bit of like a Dwayne Wade in game two of the finals in 2011, where he hits the three, the whole bench is taunting. There's a timeout and the Mads get so furious. They're like, we can't let this team clown us like this. And they come back and win the game. and they all cite that moment as a moment that changed their mindset. And Dwayne Wade cites that moment as like a whoopsie moment for him. Do you think OG is the greatest 3 and D guy we've had in the 3 and D era? Because it has to be somebody who's not an actual... I couldn't average 25 to 26 a game if I had to on a good team.

1:07:58Bill Simmons:I have to be like basically the third option. I know exactly what I am. I'm over here. I'm going to play bass. We're going to have some awesome concerts. Every once in a while, I might get to sing a couple songs, but that's all I'm doing. And he knows it, and that's just who he is. I can't think of a better version of this. It's almost like we should change 3 and D to OG. I mean, I don't even know what he is, man, because he just averaged 20 points a game for an entire playoffs. And I know that scoring is up because of threes and all that, but that's... So maybe he's like a 3 and D plus. Like he's just OG's like the separate category for 3 and D guys.

1:08:38Bill Simmons:So it's not that they're running plays for him. No, you know, I used to talk about 3 and D and D guys with the second D being drive. Like you got to be able to make plays out of closeouts and he's good at that, but he can do a little bit of everything. Like he can bully a mismatch if you got nothing else going on. He can hit an off the dribble three now and then. He's a 33 and double D guy? I don't know. like don't go into Barkley territory on that but I I just think he's a phenomenal player and and it was a trade I love for them right away uh you and I I think talked about it at one point too about you know the quickly and an OB debate and all that I just thought there was never any debate it was just such a smart identification of all right if Brunson's our guy what kind of guys do we need to get around him and if Brunson's our guy quickly is never going to develop under us the way that he could somewhere else and Barrett is Barrett.

1:09:31Like, we just need a different guy. And that was absolutely like A-plus identification of talent.

1:09:39Bill Simmons:Yeah, I remember doing a pod about that trade and being like, I have no idea how this is going to play out. But I understand it from both sides. But it's like, at that point, OG, you know, he'd miss some games at some point. It was like, Toronto always seemed pretty anxious to get off him. for like three years they didn't want to pay this contract that the knicks are currently paying and the knicks are like this is great we'll pay you yeah they were delighted to do it can we can we find a sponsorship deal for you under the table or something um but because we love you so much by the way raptors uh you know what i was thinking like very tangential winners and losers of the playoffs and of the nba finals raptors and an obi right like siakam and siakam and i had forgotten they traded Siakam and the Pacers pick that one of the Pacers picks they got in that trade is now the number five pick in the draft and it had quite a journey it went Indiana, Toronto Toronto, New Orleans, New Orleans back to Indiana and then Indiana to the Clippers and now it's the number five pick in the draft, I'd forgotten about that crazy yeah it seems like in retrospect maybe Ananobi and Siakam could have worked together as two forwards on a really good team.

1:10:53Bill Simmons:But watching it in real time, it was a team that never really made sense. There was something missing when you watch them and none of us could put our finger on it. It's like, I like this guy. I like this guy. It's just... A lot of it was Scottie Barnes developing, I think, faster than they thought. And I think they maybe got a little ahead of Scottie Barnes' development in making their team-building decisions, but they just concluded this is not going to be a championship team. The next championship team is going to be built around Scottie Barnes. Let's just pivot there now. And yeah, it looks...

1:11:21I also... Oh, go ahead. No, I was going to say, I also felt for Brooklyn Nets fans a little bit when Mike Breen said during the game about Jose Alvarado, or about Julian Champagny, the Brooklyn kid torturing his hometown team. I was like, ooh, that one's going to sting just a little bit. Yeah, that's a hard one.

1:11:40Bill Simmons:On the bright side for San Antonio, I think Carter Bryant's going to be really good. It's a very bright, bright side. I love Carter Bryant, and next year maybe he's a little more involved. The Harper thing's incredible. It really felt like there was a couple of moments tonight where I was like, wow, if the San Antonio wins this, it's going to be because Dylan Harper went to this crazy level that we've only seen a couple of times from 20 year olds in the finals. And it was like, is he going to score 38 points? Is this just going to be like he single handedly changes this? And then Trump decides to go to game six and all of a sudden the momentum is completely flipped against the next.

1:12:18That game already feels like three weeks ago. The Trump game. Yeah, it just, the playoffs are just so long. The Trump game feels like three weeks ago. You know how long the playoffs are? Here's a thought that popped into my head today. Just to pop, this is like how broken my brain is. You know when it popped into my head when I was doing Ringer 100 and I put this guy in the Ringer 100 higher than I've ever had him. I was like, hey man, Tobias Harris had himself a playoffs, didn't he? That feels like seven months ago that Tobias Harris had himself a playoffs.

1:12:46Bill Simmons:I sent my Ringer 100 in, I had Brunson fourth. I don't remember where I had him. I'm not looking it up right now. I was not fourth, though. So that means you had him above Luka Giannis. I put him above Luka. Yeah, I put him above Luka. Why not? He deserves to be above Luka. He just won the title. Just revise it now. Put him one. Why not? Why not have a ceremonial ringer 100? He's first now. So Harper, like, they'll have to figure out the Fox thing, but it'll be fine. Maybe it doesn't materialize until February. And then Wemby, as you mentioned earlier, because of everything that played out the last three weeks, this is his Rocky III moment now.

1:13:22Bill Simmons:Now he's got to, in fact, what do I need to add? I've now tasted my own blood. I'm a little bit villainy now in America, especially with the Knicks fan base and probably OKC too. And Minnesota. I have some teams that, franchises that don't like me, and like, this is going to be how it goes. So we did the most intriguing players of the playoffs before the playoffs. We had a draft. We did? I do remember that. I picked Wemby for Apex Superstar, and you picked SGA. Neither of us picked Brunson. For crossroads guy, you took Mitchell, and I took Palo and Franz as a combo. Who ended up being the crossroads guy from the playoffs?

1:14:00I don't even know what the definition of crossroads guy is.

1:14:03Bill Simmons:Just like we leave the playoffs going, whoa, I guess it's Fox. I think Fox is our crossroads. Crossing to the wrong side of the road? No, it's just like you're at the crossroads with this guy on your team, or this guy in his career. Probably Fox. Defensive stud, I had O 'Jane Ananobi. You had Derek White. That's nice. Feel good star, you had LaMelo. I had Tatum. Well, this was before the play-in tournament. We did this. We counted the play-in teams. Hot seat coach, you had Jamal Mosley. I had E-Man Doka. Hot seat wild card. You had Zachary Riches. I had Deere and Fox. We really nailed this one.

1:14:41Bill Simmons:Woo! Legacy guy, I had Brunson. You had Jokic. I think I took Brunson before. I'm not going to brag about that. You had for second banana, Carl Anthony Towns, and I had Jalen Duren, so you hit that. And you had Mikael Bridges, and I had Aaron Gordon for third banana. I guess Bridges maybe is a fourth banana. Mikael Bridges is not the third banana, no. The Leap. I had Maxie. You had Steph Castle. I think we both hit that. Fine. Right? Yeah. Trade Machine Guy, you had Julius Randle. I had J-Dub, so one for two there. You win. Weak Link. You had Jalen Green, I had Tobias, and then we had a Coda guy for some reason.

1:15:21Bill Simmons:You had KD and I had Curry. Neither of those hit. Boy, did the KD Coda to his career not hit in these playoffs. Oh, and for beloved bench guy, I had Luke Cornett, and you had Peyton Pritchard. Anyway, that was a snapshot of how we were feeling before the playoffs. And I don't know if... Bonus guy who has to be mentioned. I had Jalen Brown, and you had Anthony Edwards. so I'm trying to think who we didn't have Dylan Harper Dylan Harper is the big one that's missing Wemby none of us took Wemby no I had Wemby for Apex Superstar you know who we didn't have was Mitch Johnson so what happens with him now he's the coach of the Spurs I don't think there's anything there's not?

1:16:07Bill Simmons:do you think they're delighted with how he coached the team in the finals? there's no universe I think they're probably a little there are things to work on for sure, but there's no world in which they're making a coaching change. Didn't think there were. I'm just asking you. Did the seat get a little hotter? No. Okay. No. It did for me. This episode is brought to you by Panda Express. It's not always easy to show love, but there is one way to express how you feel. Food. And what better way to say I love you than when Panda Express is delicious, authentically cooked American Chinese cuisine. Whether it's eating with someone you love or while watching the team you love, you can pick from tasty options like orange chicken, honey walnut shrimp, Kung Pao chicken, and black pepper sirloin steak.

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1:17:30Bill Simmons:Top five NBA stories other than the finals. Now that the finals are over. Okay, we're just gonna, we're okay. All right, let's do it. What else do you have? No, that's it. Do you have any more finals? No, let's go top five stories. I just didn't make a list. I didn't know we were doing this. So let's go. I mean, number one's obvious. What do you think number one is? Giannis. I had the top 10 order of the draft. That's number one or two. This is not your expertise. That's number one or two. I'm really fascinated with what's happened in this draft because I think AJ, I am now at, I would bet anything AJ is going to be the first pick.

1:18:06Bill Simmons:Anything. Anything. I'll take the bet. He's minus 500 on Fando. I would lay it down if I could do it in California. And I think Boozer's going to go two. And I think Peterson will go three to Memphis. And we'll see how he handles that. And then Wilson four. Nobody knows who's going five to the Clippers. Nobody. People just had Wagler written in there. And now it feels like people are a little more lukewarm on him. And maybe they trade back. But that five to 10 range is going to be fascinating. And then Golden State's sitting there at 11 hoping somebody drops. So I'm interested in that. I'm going to, I'm holding the honest straight to the end here.

1:18:42Bill Simmons:The Reeves contract, does that provoke interest from you or you just feel like the Lakers take care of him? That provokes interest for me. I would guess the league, I would bet the Lakers take care of him, but you know, would you feel good about paying him 50 million a year after the series you just watched? Which series? The final expert series. Just thinking about like that level of basketball and I look, I don't feel like great about paying a lot of players 50 million dollars a year in a salary cap second apron environment but what's my alternative i feel okay i feel okay but then i then he's not on my team and i have to figure out what's my team around luca donchich um the problem for them is they have to pay him because luca's like what do you mean you're not paying him he's my second best teammate.

1:19:34Bill Simmons:Um, but I think that really to two, two 50 plus million dollar guys makes everything really hard. So I have that I have, what does Cleveland do? I think is a really good one. I'm prepared for basically anything with that. Although I haven't heard anything about them being involved with the honest, have you? Uh, I, I think, I think they're always hovering on the periphery, but it would very clearly take, it would take Mobley and it would take Giannis indicating that he would sign a long-term extension there. And it just feels like a pretty unlikely series of events. He has not indicated that at all.

1:20:12Bill Simmons:And then before we get to Giannis, LeBron. Oh, sure. What happens with that is a good one. It always is. It always is. This one's a really fun one because the Warriors is really in play now, like for real. I really feel like if I had to bet my life on a team, I think I would bet on them. I'm not betting your life and everything on these things. I'm not actually betting it, but that's what I think that would be the move for me. And that's attached to the Cleveland topic too. At least they have to be at least monitored for that. Yeah, but how does he, that would basically be him doing 30 million a year and then them trading Jared Allen to the Lakers?

1:20:51I don't know. I don't know how it works. I've been in the finals bunker, but or he takes an enormous pay cut, which I don't see.

1:20:57Bill Simmons:but who knows? I don't know. We've never, we've never seen a famous rich guy take a giant pay cut other than Carl Malone that one time. Um, the honest trade is that five storylines already? Yeah. Those are the five. Why do you have another one? Well, I mean, aspiration. Oh, wrapping up. I mean, Adam silver kind of Adam silver for the first time kind of acknowledged that is, which I think it was before game was, I guess taking a while. We've got to wrap this one up guys. A lot of billable hours. can we can we just get to the end of this if you're the Clippers do you hope it wraps up after you have the fifth pick of the draft because that would be one of my hopes can we wrap this up in July guys yeah I'm going to lose my fifth pick you think they were rooting for a seven game finals just to shrink the window between the finals and the draft

1:21:51Bill Simmons:alright that's a good one too so Giannis what are you hearing I think the Bucs, I think, well, I mean, they're trading him. I would be shocked at this point if they didn't. They obviously know what Miami's offer is. They have not traded him to Miami yet. So other things are afoot, and I don't know how many teams are realistically in it. You have talked about it. I would definitely watch Boston potentially dipping their, diving in, not just dipping their toe in, but diving in? I think they dove in. They made, from what I heard, they made an offer in the past week, a couple of days before I mentioned on Thursday.

1:22:36Bill Simmons:I don't know what the offer was and I don't know who's in it, but they are in, Hat was in the ring, which I was really surprised by, as I said on Thursday, because I thought they were sitting it out. And I don't know, do you think something changed? Do you think they looked at this from every angle or that they realized, oh, that's it for the Miami offer, we can beat that? Like what would have changed their mindset? Because I do not think they were in on Giannis at the beginning of the off season. I don't think they were ever out. I just, the safest bet is always inertia, right? Like the safest bet is we know that the nucleus we have works really well.

1:23:10And there's some degree of risk in shaking that up for a 31 year old who's been injury prone and we're gonna have to sign him to ginormous extension. It's a big pivot for a team that has a pretty large window now of being one of the best teams in the NBA when everyone's healthy. But I think it's probably just frustration with how the season ended. Some public comments that had been made after the season that ruffled some feathers, I'm sure. And again, like a dearth of like, how many teams are we really competing against if we go for them? And I'm not saying they've gone, gone for them, but maybe they have.

1:23:48There's Miami. Like, I don't really know how real the Portland thing is. Is he signing an extension in Portland? I don't think so. I don't think he's going to say that up front anyway. Orlando, I'm not sure how real that one is yet. Toronto, I just don't think they have enough to get it done because obviously they're not putting Scotty Barnes in that deal. So I don't really know, even if they wanted to do it or make an offer, what it would be. I mean, there just aren't that many teams that are going to rock the boat to the degree the Bucs are going to need it rocked.

1:24:19Bill Simmons:On top of that, he wants to go to Miami or Boston. and I think Boston over Miami because he has a better chance to win a title in Boston. Because Miami's going to trade all this stuff on the side and just have him and Bam and then have to figure it out. And it's been made clear, I think, Oklahoma City's out. There's not going to be a panic Chet trade. I can tell you for sure other teams have checked on Chet and been stiff-armed. San Antonio is obviously out. The team that has been curiously unmentioned and I think is unmentioned because they haven't been in is Houston in terms of teams that have assets, right?

1:24:50Like I just, I, and then, uh, what am I, I don't know if it's top five interesting stories, but just a team that has a lot of assets and I just like, is Brooklyn really just going to like, what are they going to do? Are they going to be like the Reeves offer sheet team or the Reeves like count offer team? Are they going to be, are they willing to just be bad again? Like, what are they actually going to do?

1:25:18Bill Simmons:Yeah, because you do the Reeves offer sheet. When can you do it? Like July 1st at 12.01 or whatever? He's unrestricted, so they don't have to worry about that. I mean, you can't offer him the money until... I guess you can do wink-wink before it. I don't know. Is he really going to leave the Lakers to go to the Brooklyn Nets to play with 17-point guards, none of whom are impact guys? Here's the problem for the Nets and why I've been on this one for a few weeks, like just being interested in it. They don't, like the best guys to take at number six are all point guards. And they just invested last year in a bunch of point guards, including they spent the eighth pick on a point guard.

1:26:00Bill Simmons:So you basically be punting on last year's draft. I just think it'd be weird if they took Acuff. Acuff is the guy they should take if he's there, but how does that make sense with the rest of the team you have? I don't get that. So I'm with you. I could see them trading him, trading that pick for a star. I'm just waiting for the Nets rumbling that makes sense to me. Because even they keep every couple weeks, you'll hear, well, there's still a team to watch for Giannis. And I'm like, well, okay, why? And why is Giannis going there? And who else is going there? I don't know what the right move is.

1:26:35By the way, Knicks probably can be ruled out for Giannis at this point. That's right.

1:26:40Bill Simmons:Well, I mean, I'm sure Milwaukee in the back of their heads was wondering, could that be a potential suitor if something weird happens in the finals? It's not going to be the Spurs. Something weird did happen. The Knicks won the finals in dominant fashion with a 16-3 playoff run. Yeah. I think Boston's going to get Giannis. Okay. And I think it will happen in the next week would be my prediction. I would not bet my life on it, but I think. How do you feel about that? Pretty ambivalent. It's for all the reasons I did like a month ago when I was going through the stats of all these guys in their 14th season or later and 32 years later, these big guys.

1:27:19Bill Simmons:It's just history is against it. Now, we're in a different era. It's 2026. There's different ways to take care of your body and advancements in medicine. We have a guy on the Lakers who was 41 years old, averaging 25 points a game last year. So who knows? But I think it's pretty risky. I'm more interested why they're in it now and I don't think they were in it before. And is there stuff they're seeing with Jalen Brown that makes them realize like, oh, this guy got a taste of being the star and we can't go back to where we were in 2024 anymore. We have two guys who think they're the best guy in this team and this is not going to be resolved.

1:27:59Can I ask you a total devil's advocate question related to this? Again, it's a devil's advocate question. Okay, it's a rhetorical device. but if I conclude that I want to get Giannis and if just mathematically I have to trade one of the Jays to get Giannis why is it just assumed that it's Jalen Brown and not Jason Tatum after the year Jalen Brown just had and Jason Tatum's coming off an Achilles injury just a question that at least needs to be asked I under I know the answer I understand Jason Tatum is better than Jalen Brown first team all NBA I'd grab him higher ranked and all that but isn't it interesting it's just it's just completely assumed it's a fair question he's he's younger

1:28:44Bill Simmons:but he is coming off the injury um i think he's considered to be a more popular ticket selling superstar than jaylen is right better as a face that has been a better player i get it yeah and i i think there's probably like a slightly higher ceiling and then with jaylen maybe you're thinking it's time to sell high he's never gonna have a better season than the last one fair I always wanted them to stay together but the more I look at it I just wonder um it's just a lot of weirdness during and after the season like even even little stuff like like Jalen St. Tatum's gonna come on his twitch stream I didn't see that when did that well that this was like a month ago when he did that he's like oh we're gonna have Jay we're gonna have Jason on hasn't been on like are those do those guys get along I literally have no idea and I I don't know if that's a piece of this or not, but you also have Giannis who has Drew Hanlon, who's also Tatum's guy.

1:29:44And I just feel like we see

1:29:47Bill Simmons:where the two leaves are going with this one. Now, there were Trey Murphy rumors. I don't know how they would get Giannis and Trey Murphy. I'm not going to believe that one. That seems crazy. But do I think Giannis makes more sense in a Boston deal than a Miami deal if Jalen's in the deal? Yeah. Cause that's a better player than anyone in Miami. Miami is like, we'd love to get you honest. You can't have Batman out of bio. Like at that point, are you making a real offer or not? Um, and you could offer all these picks and all these other things, but that's not who, who's your centerpiece. You're trading a guy who won you the title in 2021 and has been with your franchise five years ago and has been in your city since 2013.

1:30:28Bill Simmons:And you're going to trade him for a bunch of stuff and you can't point to one thing. I will say, okay. Okay, just for the sake of fairness, I do think new lottery rules, 31-year-old injury-prone player going to Miami who guts the rest of its non-BAM roster to get him. I think those picks, the further out you get to Miami picks, there's real upside in those picks. On the flip side, what is Jalen Brown doing for me if I'm the Milwaukee Bucks? I guess what he's doing for me is like, again, there's upside if we become a 38-win team or a 42-win team and miss the playoffs, and he just proved that he's actually better than people thought, maybe we do.

1:31:08Get Jalen Brown, nail a couple fringe signings, suddenly we're like a feel-good 47-win team. Is that better? And then he has trade value, maybe we flip him. I think these are all questions worth...

1:31:20Bill Simmons:But don't you think that it's a three-teamer if Boston's in it? I can't imagine they end up with Jalen Brown. I would assume he goes to Portland or Atlanta or New Orleans or somewhere else. I think that's all possible. The more teams... I got to say the Portland one makes a lot of sense. It's been one of my favorite. My two favorite conjured up Giannis trades are the three-teamer where Jalen Brown goes to Portland and some other stuff goes everywhere. And then the Bucs get their draft assets back from Portland. And the draft assets back, you get Scoot back. You probably get something else from Boston.

1:31:52Wow, Scoot's getting thrown in there. I think he has to.

1:31:55Bill Simmons:If I'm trading Giannis, I need my picks back and I need to at least have Scoot. And then if I'm Portland and I end up with Denny and Jalen Brown together with Klingon, with Dame, with Kamara, with Sharps there. I still have Drew Holiday. I'm kind of excited about that team. It's a pretty interesting team. One of those guys may not be there. Which guy? Well, like Sharps or Holiday. I mean, Holiday would want to be there. I would assume Jeremy Grant would be going to Milwaukee if that would be the guy that I would move if I'm getting Joe. Possibly. I think Portland makes more sense than Atlanta or New Orleans.

1:32:37And I always liked the Bancaro one. I mean, I've been talking about it since the beginning of last season when I had to remind myself he was not really, he was kind of poison-pilled because of the cap rules. He's not anymore. I just like, that's an interesting one. Again, I don't know if that one has any actual legs.

1:32:53Bill Simmons:Do you think what Boston watched in these last two rounds would make them more prone to trade for Giannis? because I actually think it would for me. For what reason? Well, I got to beat the Knicks. Physicality? The Knicks were kind of built to beat Boston and did, right? And then I have no inside-out game and I'm jacking up threes, which Steven's made a point of saying in that press conference, like I'm tired of losing the way we're losing. We need to be more unpredictable offensively. We need inside-outside. So all that ties to Giannis. I don't know if it's a great idea. I wish I was more excited about it.

1:33:31Bill Simmons:Part of me hopes Miami just gets them and they try to figure out how to make the Tatum-Brown thing work. These guys played together nine years and that would be my preference, but we will see. Yeah, there's a chance if Boston does it that it ends up being just kind of a lateral move. It's just like, if it's the deal we're thinking of or Jalen Brown goes out, then maybe it just doesn't. do you play differently and maybe end up in the same place, which has been largely a very good place. But although, as you've pointed out, they've had crazy playoff success and some crushing playoff outcomes around it.

1:34:05Bill Simmons:There's no way they get... If they're in on Giannis, I don't see how Jalen's not in it. You're not getting him for Derek White and all the rest of your picks, right? So it has to be Jalen. Well, and then you're... I mean, you can't have three guys making$70 million on your team. It's just not tenable. Is there a wild card I'm prepared to put my seatbelt on for this team, team for you over the next 10 days? Just crazy offseason overall? Just like I'm just ready for anything because I think for me, Denver would be that team. I don't know what I'm prepared for. Maybe I'm not prepared for anything, but I also don't know how they just run it back.

1:34:47You know? I guess I just am anticipating a more predictable offseason for Denver but again they've already said they haven't said but it's been reported that everybody but Jokic is on the table which you know that there's some everybody's there I guess I think we're all expecting New Orleans to do some stuff right with Trey Murphy and other places I think like Minnesota always seems to be always seems to be thinking outside the box and they just watched Oklahoma City and San Antonio, and those are the teams they've got to compete with. I'd keep an eye on them. Atlanta, I don't really know what their appetite is for something big, but they certainly have a lot of different directions they could go.

1:35:31Bill Simmons:On a small scale, I'm interested in OKC just because they have, I think, 12 and 17 plus all these picks. There's some sort of non-major move that could still be really fun for us. And then Charlotte with 14 and 18 in the draft could get frisky somewhere. And that's I always thought that made sense as the Sabonis team. I had one person who is very into the Charlotte team who was like, well, we have Diabate. Why do we need Sabonis? It's like, I don't know. I just like Sabonis. I feel like Sabonis is undervalued now where he's just become like this sunk cost. I don't think he is. Like, I still feel like there are good teams for him.

1:36:08They're a center away from being really interesting and he would definitely have the Tim Robbins. I just escaped Shawshank balance. Right. Getting out of Sacramento.

1:36:18Bill Simmons:know he's just he's he's going to be 20 and 14 wherever he goes right the problem is if your team can't play defense which i don't know if maybe charlotte's not the right team for him from that standpoint but i still value him as an as like a kind of a buy low asset charlotte's also going to be in a position with 12 14 whatever they end up doing is with the uh to draft a center and i think that needs to be factored in as well yeah and then houston's the other one that i'm Houston might just decide to run it back. Just, hey, we had bad luck last year. We'll bring David Lee back. We'll bring Adams back.

1:36:55Bill Simmons:And everything will be fine. But I find that one hard to believe. It does feel like a long, long time ago that Reed Shepard shot 30 % in the playoffs and had one of the more disastrous turnovers of the last calendar year in the NBA. It's a long... Yeah, that does feel like forever. So in general, the playoffs, the first two rounds were pretty blah. The round three, Knicks-Cavs was awful, unless you're a Knicks fan. OKC and Antonio had a really fun game one and a fascinating game seven. All the middle games were pretty blah. And then the finals was one of the most entertaining five-game finals we've ever had in our lives.

1:37:38I don't think you could even get a better five-game finals. I think this is just the apex of a five-game final. I mean, every game was a nail biter. The total score was Knicks plus 12 over five games. Like I just, every game had you, they were similar and yet everyone unfolded a little bit differently. And just, it was edgy your seat the whole time.

1:37:58Bill Simmons:I'm trying to think of other ones. 90, the 90 finals, which I mentioned earlier, was actually a great finals. Pistons, Blazers, just a good matchup, really good games. And that Blazers team had a little bit of Spursitis where they just did dumb shit at the worst possible times. but yeah it's pretty rare to have a really good five game series you're talking you're talking five or less five or less well four is usually pretty hard to find a good four one but yeah well the lakers the lakers would argue and they got swept by denver in 2023 one of the all-time great sweeps well kenny atkinson this year is well yeah he had he thought that was yeah that was another one we really could do a really fun just 15 hey remember when that happened moments from the NBA playoffs every year.

1:38:45And that's already been pushed back to the back of my brain. We're analytically up 2-1. Congratulations.

1:38:52Bill Simmons:We had that improbable Philly Boston comeback. And the one week where it seemed like Embiid was back as an asset. And then he just wilted in the next series. But we had a Paul George resurgence. There was a lot of funky shit happening. Alright, Zach Love. Thanks for staying up late. 1.30 in the morning. You'll be lying in bed with your heart pounding for the next two hours. I won't. I'm going to go have a glass of wine because I can't go to sleep and that'll help me go to sleep. And I never, this is early for me on a team. If I'm at the championship clinching game, I'm usually up till four, hanging out with people who are celebrating.

1:39:32And so this is early.

1:39:33Bill Simmons:What was your best memory of that for the hanging out till five in the morning with the team that won the title? uh one of the warriors parties i won't name which one um was really really fun um and i finagled my way in and one day when i'm retiring and i don't care anymore i'll tell a fun story from that party oh i can't wait that is yeah that for now goes in the vault that i still the main characters and i still laugh about it uh every once in a while and your next podcast will probably be monday i'm guessing yeah i think i think monday morning i think we're just deviating from normal calendar tuesday thursday like i gotta i gotta think a little bit more about this and talk knicks and i'm hoping to get a couple of guests and we'll just i but i'm aiming to record tomorrow night like wrap up the finals wrap up the playoffs talk about some of this offseason stuff and just i i like to luxuriate in the championship this is why we all do this is to to have what the Knicks just had.

1:40:38Let's luxuriate it a little bit before we pivot to Giannis. Although, who knows? Giannis could get traded tomorrow and then we have an emergency podcast right away. The

1:40:47Bill Simmons:Big Bad West. One for three in titles last three years. Okay. Yeah. The East is back. Two or three. They beat the hell out of each other. Two of the last three titles have come from the East. We're back, baby. Who went in 22? The Warriors. Warriors, 21 was the Bucs. Three of the last five coming from the East. 20 Lakers. With that, baby. 19 Raptors. So we were alternating. Before the last seven. Eight straight. Eight straight. What a slump for the West. Jesus. Eight straight new champions, you know, as much trumpeted stat. Thanks to Gahal and Eduardo. As always, don't forget, I have rewatchables coming tomorrow night.

1:41:30Bill Simmons:The hand that rocks the cradle. Scary. Next issue. and from Hell Month. And then Zach will have a podcast probably in the next 36 hours. Zach Lowe, thanks for staying up with me. Congrats to the New York Knicks. Thanks for having me. Congrats to the Knicks fans. Thank you. Must be 21 plus in president select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 plus in president in DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. Game problem, call 1-800-GAMBLE or 1-800-MY-RESET. Call 888-79-7777 or visit ccpg.org slash chat in Connecticut or mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelpline ma.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24-7 support in Massachusetts or call 877-8-HOPE-NY or text HOPE-NY in New York for Louisiana.

1:42:20Bill Simmons:Call 877-770-7867.

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