NFL Draft Notes, Knicks and Nuggets Red Flags, Atlanta’s Moment, and Vrabel’s Mess | With Rob Mahoney and Sean Fennessey

28:33Bill Simmons:yeah and he looked just a whiff defeated during this game too I've seen him, there's versions of him when he knows like alright guys let's go And maybe he'll be like that in game four. But this game, he really felt like he was trying to problem solve. And when he can't make threes, I think it's going to be really hard. We talked too much about Denver without talking enough about Minnesota. McDaniels, if CJ McCollum wasn't in the playoffs, would be the breakout star of the playoffs. Even though he's done versions of this before. But he's been... I didn't vote for him for either team for all defense, did you?

29:09I did not. To be honest, in the regular season, and I thought he was like a little more up and down than normal. Well, so were the Timberwolves. Fair.

29:16Bill Simmons:Yeah. When he's playing like this and Ant, even though he's clearly not 100%, but the defense was going around. Then Io, which was the best move at the trade deadline, other than maybe Kobe White. And, you know, they had no point guard. They were on the Rob Dillingham, washed up Mike Conley, Bones Highland rollercoaster at that spot. And sometimes not even playing a point guard. They and we are still on the Bones Highland roller coaster. I want to give Bones an apology because he's just been straight up like a legit playoff performer for them. It's certainly miles ahead of whatever they would have gotten from Rob Dillingham at this stage.

29:52Bill Simmons:Yeah, the concept of Bones Highland was always what we're actually watching in this Minnesota series where it's like, and that 30 footer might go in. Oh, it did. Oh, he's talking all kinds of shit, even though he has seven points. this is kind of what his destiny was now of course he left Denver because he didn't really like playing with the Joker and Murray and that seemed like a failure of an IQ test but maybe maybe Bones found his way. Minnesota I would call them the rope and dope Timberwolves where I don't know what to expect from them game to game week to week. There were three different times during this season where I'm like here we go I even have a 12 to 1 Timberwolves title bet that I made in February and they immediately went on like a seven-game losing streak.

30:41Bill Simmons:They're just all over the map. I don't think Chris Finch has aged, I think, six years in the last two. Oh, easily. And the frustrating thing about Minnesota and the reason we talked about them so much during the season is they can do this. They can do what we just saw in the last couple games. They can get to this level. So why? Why is it a backs-to-the-wall thing with them? and is it sustainable for you? I mean, everything you just described says it's not perfectly sustainable. And even in this game, like they played an amazing first half and then had moments in the second half where they were just fouling a bunch, like doing the kinds of things that you might do to let a team like the Nuggets back in the game.

31:20They were just so far ahead by that point. And I think you're spot on about Jokic in particular looking a little bit defeated, looking like they're just going to kind of punt this game and move on. Yeah. You have to believe in the Wolves because of this high end potential though, because they do have this in them And I want to say in particular, have this kind of game in them when it wasn't like Ant was amazing. It wasn't like Julius Randle was unbelievable. It was just a collective defensive performance that was as much about, you know, leading scorer, I would assume new as it was Dante DiVincenzo, as it was Jaden McDaniels, as it was Rudy Gobert.

31:50Like they were all tethered together in a way that's really, really tough to beat.

31:54Bill Simmons:Yeah. Denver had six points with like two minutes left in the first quarter. Timberwolves weren't even shooting like that well. It wasn't like they were blowing it up offensively, but the defense was just awesome. I don't really understand it. I saw them in person play the Clippers right after the trade deadline when they had just gotten IO, and they looked awesome. And there was like specific stretches. I remember leaving the game like, wow, that's like, watch out for that team. That might even been the day I made the bet. And then like a week later, they played the Clippers again and they were down 30 in the first half.

32:28Bill Simmons:and that was when they went into one of their many tailspins doing the thing, but I was like, what? I just saw you guys a week ago and you seemed like you had your shit together. This got bad enough for Denver that I was wondering if they were going to go Twin Towers with Joker and Valanchunas. I don't know. Valanchunas feels kind of unplayable in the series at this point. But that's when we're talking about searching for answers. My mind went there for about 20 seconds. That's a dark place. What would that look like? At this point, I think I'd be more comfortable maxing out the Zeke Nagy minutes than I would making more space for Valanchunas.

33:05It just doesn't feel like he has much of a spot in this matchup.

33:08Bill Simmons:No, I don't think so. I was trying to figure out any way that they could put a second big body out there to take some pressure off the Joker, but that wasn't happening. I think it's a little simplistic, but with this roster constructed as it is, the only way you're going to get offensive flow is if Jokic and Murray just play a lot better than this. And they're just going to have to do that against hellacious defensive pressure that's attached to them every step of the way. It's going to be incredibly difficult if Gordon can't go. But none of these other guys create flow for your offense. They just draft off of everything that Jokic and Murray usually create for them.

33:43And so it's not a surprise to see the entire offense going gummy when you remove that critical spacing and flow element in Aaron Gordon from the mix.

33:51Bill Simmons:And they unlocked a couple of things. Like they're just going to be in Murray's face. The 94 feet. That's just how they're going to play. They're going to, it seems like they want to run after every rebound, especially when I was out there. Like they just want to go. And he was trying to get down to all the time. Oh yeah. When I own Dante are out there together, like both of those guys, just like by the way they play rev up everyone around them and the amplifying effect of both of them on the floor at the same time is really awesome and really special. And I think maybe kind of insulates them a little bit from some, of their more Wolves-y up and down qualities, right?

34:26Like the offense is never going to be super precise in terms of how they execute. They're always going to be a little bit vulnerable to that.

34:32Bill Simmons:Yeah. But if when you do go on the runs, you add four points to that run because I would assume he came up with two steals in the process and it's like you can weather the down spells a little bit better. I played 31 minutes today and at a 25 and 9 it was 10 for 15 got to the line six times. Incredible. The Bulls were like yeah, take them. Yeah, why would you want a player like this to be a part of your future? What would, what would be the point of that? Especially when you see him in person, like he's a big dude. He's not a point guard. Like he's big shoulders. Looks like he's about six, three, six, four, um, can switch on anybody.

35:06Bill Simmons:And it's just really impressive. So when they play, when they have him, I'd love to see the, I haven't looked at the five man lineups, but when it's McDaniels, Gobert, Dante Edwards, and then IO, it's a, that's a lineup that I feel like could, could hang. in the next couple rounds and it's going to be the big question because you know he it seems like he's stubbornly playing through something but he's flexibly like going down and playing with it and looking at it and i don't know where this is a long haul we're in week two of a well how many weeks are we going here 12. not great yeah he's not fully himself for sure they're going to need as as these games get a little bit more competitive than this one like the best of julius randall a little bit more often than they might otherwise just because of whatever ant has left at this point game 82 denver has a chance to just roll over against san antonio get to the fourth seed and play houston i kind of like that they said fuck it with the denver nuggets on the other hand probably better better off if they're playing that messed up rockets team and it switches two series because it gave the lakers life true it would have no chance against this minnesota team and now Reeves is coming back and we're going to talk about that in a second but Aaron Gordon this is his 12th year he's played 756 games 68 games, this is the first time I started thinking about a finish line with this Nuggets run where Gordon who I think has just had a lot of nothing like a catastrophic injury but some mileage and some dings and some bangs on his body and we might have seen the best version of him.

36:46Bill Simmons:We might see a 90 % version of him, but... Sure. So you have that. You have Joker who's been dominated in the 2020s. You have Murray with some miles on him. He had a knee surgery. I am a little worried about the long term with this team if they can't get out of this series. Yeah. I think there are parts of Aaron Gordon's game that are going to be just fine as he diminishes ever so slightly from, I don't know, one of the seven most athletic people on the planet into the top 25 most athletic people on the planet. like he's such a smart positional defender. He knows how to rotate. He knows how to communicate.

37:20Like he's so good at tethering in to his teammates on both sides of the ball. But they also rely on him to do superhuman things all the time, to guard up and down the positional spectrum, especially to like cross match against other bigs and really like be a bully in a bunch of different ways. And that's tough if you're coming up with calf injuries and hamstring injuries all the time. Like you have to be really explosive to do the best Aaron Gordon stuff. and I don't know how long that will be a reasonable ask.

37:45Bill Simmons:Well, we'll see. I don't want to pronounce the Nuggets dead. No. Game four, I think, is the series for them. I don't think they can win three straight with a banged up Gordon. So if they fall down 3-1, even though five and seven are in Denver, that seems too tall of a task. Because Minnesota is too good defensively. So everything will come down to game four. And the NBA already played their Scott Foster card tonight. so there you go one last thing a little bit of a legacy series for our guy Rudy oh sure I was looking it up so he's made a second team all NBA and two third teams he's been defensive player of the year four times first time first team all D7 career he's basically 13 and 12 with two blocks he's played 89 playoff games two conference finals 12 and 11 in the playoffs with the declining line for Hall of Fame players in the NBA as we've continued to make it pretty blurry what a Hall of Fame player is.

38:50Bill Simmons:I actually think there's a chance he gets in. I think he's absolutely getting in. He's a four-time defensive player of the year. He's getting into the Hall of Fame. It's hard for me to wrap my head around it. I think he's in. I think it's going to happen. Now, I do think a series like this could change just the way a lot of people talk about him, In terms of the playoff liability, we've seen, I think, some very specific moments where he was taken out of the game in, again, very, very specific circumstances. And that has been overblown into, oh, you can't keep him on the floor in high leverage playoff situations.

39:25That was never really the case. A lot of the teams that he was on that faltered defensively were more about what perimeter guys couldn't hold down their spot and Rudy being overstretched maybe a little bit. But he's one of the best defensive players of his generation, if not all time. He's a winning player through and through. He's helped a bunch of different, like at least these two different franchises at this point. I think he's kind of a shoo-in based on the accolades alone.

39:47Bill Simmons:So the reason I don't think he's a shoo-in, although you never know with the line these days, is that there's just a lot of good players that are going to be popping in and the careers are longer. And we're going to see people with, I think, better credentials. Because Draymond's another one that I actually think Draymond is more realistic to get in than Rudy because of all the titles and all the finals and the playoffs, stuff like that. But just think if you go through the teams and it's like, well, Curry, Clay, Draymond, they're all getting in. Westbrook and Durant, they're getting in. Tatum and Brown, they're probably getting in.

40:21Bill Simmons:Like you go on down the line, it's like, it's just a lot of guys. So I guess it would depend on how many they do. But yeah, it was the first time I was watching it. I was like, wow, Rudy's really kind of cementing a Hall of Fame case out of nowhere. We'll do quickly Raptors-Cavs. Probably the best game of Scotty Barnes' career. He was awesome. Maybe the best game of R.J. Barrett's career. They both had 33. Both have had a good series, to be honest. Even though the Cavs overall have clearly been up and mostly down, but they have not been the problem. They have been rock solid, I would say, throughout these first three.

40:54Bill Simmons:And they got a big Murray Boyles, little Jameson battle. He's back. Hitting some closing threes today. it turned out it's not the series for Brandon Ingram or Jakob Pertl I don't know if there's ever a series for Jakob Pertl but it's not the series for Brandon Ingram for some reason which is weird to me because I thought he would have some good matchups but to me this is way more a story of the Cavs and all of the issues I had with them as a real contender I just don't think they're good enough defensively I don't trust the Mitchell Harden Mitchell today was just for him for somebody that was a first team all nba guy on some ballots and a fifth place mvp guy it was just a no-show in a game three that it's like just just go out there slit their throats get out of this get to make this a sweep and he did the opposite it looked like he didn't give a shit especially like donovan mitchell takes his shots in terms of his playoff performance too but it's more about what he is in a team context and the idea that you can't just have him throw a whole team on his shoulders and superman his way through everything once you get into the second round or whatever.

42:03Bill Simmons:Yeah. But generally speaking, he shows up and competes. And this is a highly unusual game for him where you're right. He felt a little disconnected. He felt a little absent. I think the Cavs turnovers overall had a lot of them feeling a little bit out of sorts in terms of what they were supposed to be doing. But they have 20. I mean, it was a lot. And Toronto, to their credit, like really dialed that up in a way that they needed to, to kind of equalize their own turnover issues in this series. Yeah. He was bad. Evan Mobley's just always slightly disappointing at this point. You never feel just fully satisfied.

42:37Bill Simmons:I don't know what food item he is. Where you're just like a little underwhelmed every time you have it. Like you're excited to get it and then it's like, yeah, this is all right. I feel like you need to swing big. You need to be like pate, foie gras. Pan-seared filet sole. with the breadcrumbs. And it's like, I'm not really filled. Can we get pizza? The Salmon, yeah. Tough, tough shots on the Bill Simmons podcast this week. Just always a little slightly disappointed, but I just don't think, you know, I think Toronto's a pretty bogus five seed. You knew they were going to win one of these at home.

43:12Bill Simmons:I picked Cleveland in six and I don't even like Toronto. Yeah. I just don't, you can just rain these open threes on Cleveland. That's how Toronto built. All of a sudden they're up 25 in this game just because they had guys wide open all over the court just taking whatever shot they wanted. And I don't think Harden, this was not like a no-show James Harden game. He was a little omnipresent, but pretty strange. Cleveland's a weird team. They are a weird team. I will say, as far as those open threes go for Toronto, they are, I mean, they have to be the streakiest three-point shooting team in the league.

43:44They have a lot of theoretical guys who will hit in the way that they did today, but they will have some bottom-out games that make their offense just completely implode.

43:53Bill Simmons:I thought Murray Boyles was excellent He's a dog, he's really good I wonder if there's some lineups where they just are going to they can go smaller because they have these long athletic guys and just be like hey this is what we're going to do, try to stop us Game 4 will be the game with that series too You know, home team usually wins game 3 when they're down 2-0 This is how a playoff series goes Game 4, we'll see, we'll see if those shots keep going in. I want to see what happens with Brandon Ingram It's funny if you go through the player who's probably the most bummed out on each playoff team, even though we just had a win.

44:29Bill Simmons:It would have been Mikael Bridges today at the Knicks if the Knicks had won. It's definitely Ingram where he's like, all right, guys, good game. But meanwhile, he's like, what the fuck? I only had nine shots. I just can't with Brandon Ingram. I wish we had a larger body of work to point to that would say that Brandon Ingram, when push comes to shove, is like, again, quite underwhelming in the Saul Monier kind of way in these sorts of games where it's like, even when he scores, it's like, why aren't you guarding? Why aren't you boxing out? Like, there's always something with him in a way that I agree with you is covered up nicely by the fact that the Raptors around him acclimated themselves well.

45:04Bill Simmons:He's the onion rings. It's like, I don't even know if I... You're underwhelmed by onion rings? No, it's like, I don't even know if I should get these. You're glad you had three and then you're like, I don't want to keep eating these. This is just, this is 900 calories. I'm going to feel sick. And then you're having, you're like half-heartedly eating the fifth one. Um, We have fantasy coming on later to talk about the Knicks with us in the playoffs in general. But that doesn't mean we can't talk about Atlanta right now. I have so many Atlanta thoughts. A joyous Rembrandt Brown called me immediately after the game.

45:35Bill Simmons:He thinks CJ McCollum is in the running now for greatest hawk of all time. What is that list? What is the greatest hawk list? It's basically Dominique Wilkins and then pick anybody else after him. Unless you want to go way back to St. Louis with Bob Pettit. doesn't count um nicks are up three atlanta gets a second chance jalen johnson offensive rebound put back nicks have it it's like 45 50 seconds left and the nicks have been money in these situations all year atlanta gets a stop time uh offensive rebound nicks atlanta gets another stop timeout 15 seconds left mike brown goes small cj mccallum says thank you and immediately scores up Myles McBride and then Atlanta gets a stop.

46:22Bill Simmons:And all of a sudden, the game's over and Atlanta is up 2-1 in the series. And I thought they deserved to win the game was the bigger thing. They're up 18. The Knicks almost did their ridiculous. It would have been the fourth time in the last two playoffs that they came back from 18 and won. This time, they didn't win. Why, in your opinion, do the Knicks consistently fall behind? See, now we're talking about the Knicks. We should wait until Sean. Atlanta. Atlanta. how many teams do you think are kicking themselves that they didn't go from a column anytime from November to February? At least a half dozen.

46:57And I think top of that list, it has to be the Houston Rockets. Yes. This is one that we flagged on group chat early in the season, as far as like, what should they do post Fred Van Vliet's injury? CJ's just been sitting there on the shelf, waiting for someone to trade for him. And I think a lot of teams overthought it. And he couldn't be this for just anybody. Like you need the right supporting cast. You need the guards who can compensate for him defensively. You need the movement to work around the fact that he's not like the most natural playmaker in the world. But he gives them and this group like exactly the kind of squirrely one-on-one game that they need.

47:31And so it's turned out to be a perfect marriage, but it could have been a perfect marriage for a lot of teams.

47:35Bill Simmons:He would have really, really, really helped Houston. The thing with him is he's not a conventional point guard, but he's really comfortable with the ball, which is, to me, like doesn't really make him any different than somebody like Donovan Mitchell. right they're guards who can bring the ball up they're not point guards they're scoring guards but they can kind of run an offense and they can handle the ball and you can't press them i was looking at his career first of all he's 34 so i think if if he's the leap guy i tweeted this if he's the making the leap guy in the playoffs i think he'd be the oldest guy ever it's usually we have that one guy we're like whoa this guy and there's like three days of stories about him he in 69 playoff games has a career average of 20 points a game.

48:20Bill Simmons:And this includes his first year, he scored 0.7 points a game for six playoff games when he barely played. In 2019, when they made the conference finals and lost to the Warriors, he played 19 playoff games and he was 24.7 points a game 44 39 73 made three threes a game and in his career he's basically been between 18 and 25 a game since 2016 yeah it's really weird to me that none of these contending teams and i kind of wish i had made a bigger deal to my pot i didn't think of it because he was seemed so buried in washington it just seemed like he was going to get bought out and join somebody but it's weird to me that some of these teams that could have needed him i think the lakers are another one that could have even though they ended up with canard and i think that worked out but you go through the league and i don't know man this guy's a professional scorer and he hasn't really lost a step especially if you have any solid playmaking from two to four in your starting lineup like a jalen johnson type player is yeah then yeah why wouldn't you invest in a guy who isn't running your offense sure but can connect enough players and attract enough attention to really get things going I really do think a lot of teams overthought it.

49:30And I think we're seeing now where, like, I want to be very clear that this is not like a vintage CJ McCollum performance. You're right that this is a leap, right? This is a dramatic shift, not just in how he's performing and in the moments that he's stepping up into, but he has a usage right now in the playoffs that's like above Ant and Donovan Mitchell and these other guys we're talking about. He's dominating an offense, whereas before he was scoring in one. And it turns out he can do that on a team like this, at least in this sort of series where he has these sorts of matchups. And this is what is so mystifying about that final score, like the go-ahead bucket against Deuce McBride.

50:06He had been killing every Deuce McBride's size defender that the Knicks put in front of him all game. He gave Deuce the two small after he busted his ass on like a first quarter, second quarter possession. And Josh Hart had done a little bit better. A little bit of size has gone a long way in kind of containing CJ over the course of the game. And yet on a critical defensive possession, you're just going to guard him with Deuce McBride? Why would you do that?

50:32Bill Simmons:Dumbfounding. I actually did research on this during the game. When you throw in CJ, who they're obviously going to resign now. Maybe at a lesser deal, but they have a lot of cap space. He's the second greatest hawk of all time. You have to bring him back. It's him and Bob Pettit. 2A and 2B. And they have Jalen Johnson, Daniels. They have Alexander Walker on their contract. Akongwu, who was terrific tonight. Oh, he's really good. I'm sure they're going to bring back Kaminga. That's another one on Akongwu, the final defensive possession where Jalen Brunson could have theoretically won it. Yeah.

51:06I think attention is going to be drawn in a lot of different ways. Maybe we'll just gloss over it or Jalen Brunson will get blamed for not scoring in that situation or whatever. If you watch Nyeka Akongwu, because Dyson Daniels is guarding Brunson, he gets hung up on, I think it was probably like a moving cat screen, to be honest with you. Akongwu sees it, buss ass across the court to get to Brunson, stalls out the whole possession, basically saves the game with just like situational awareness. And Okongu's having a great series. This was an awesome game for him.

51:33Bill Simmons:Yeah, I agree. I'm a mild stockholder. I don't have a huge position, but I have bought some Okongu stock over the years. Kaminga, which, listen, I don't think there's a lot of teams he makes sense for, but he makes sense on this team. Clearly. It's like seeing somebody like Crime 101 and you know just seeing a couple of the actors that movie like all right for this movie that's fine Halle Berry great um but they have this New Orleans pick too yeah and they actually um it's the better of that pick or Milwaukee so they have a couple chances getting the top four so I asked remember like is this the best time to be a Hawks fan since 1988 which was the year that Dominique's peak doc rivers antoine car cliff leamingston they take the celtics to seven dominique and bird have the amazing duel dominique's one of the best players in the league and since then the only other peaks for them they i mean they were pretty good in that they had a couple of 90s where they had like 50 win teams that were fine they had that 2015 season with horford and all those dudes the the joint players of the week and mike budenholzer did they win 60 that year they won 60 they got swept in the Eastern Finals.

52:50Bill Simmons:And then 21, they made the Eastern Finals. They had that weird Sixers series win when Ben Simmons' career ended and Trey Young made a couple plays. Sure, yeah. And they made the Eastern Finals. Nobody really took them seriously. But I think the combo of them playing well, but the fact that they actually have a foundation. They have the best foundation I think they've had in a long time. I honestly think since the 80s. Because when you throw in that New Orleans pick and how good this draft is, this is just going to be a really good team for a while i suspect so but we also said the same thing after that 2021 run like because it was trey it was deandre hunter's kevin herder it was like a lot of guys who were on the come up who now with the benefit of hindsight we know didn't really pan we got fooled by trey a little bit well we also got fooled by the sixers and ben trimmons and yeah you look back and that was definitely one of those uh the wool got pulled over our eyes series.

53:44Oh, yeah. But this does not feel that way.

53:47Bill Simmons:No. No, this feels like a... I know what they are. I think they have a real identity. I think in the draft, they can really add somebody who could be special. And if they bring Kaminga and CJ back at reasonable deals, there's something here. All right, so that's the positive version of the Atlanta Knicks series. We're going to take a break and then we're going to bring Sean Fentasy for the Knicks heart attack section of this. This episode is brought to you by LinkedIn Ads. Ever invest in something that seemed incredible at first, but didn't live up to the hype? Well, marketers know the feeling.

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55:02Bill Simmons:Terms and conditions apply. This episode is brought to you by Sephora. You know, moms, obviously the best, whether you have a mom or you're married to a mom or you have both. They definitely deserve the best when it comes to Mother's Day gifts. You could just go basic. You could do flowers, chocolates, whatever. But if you want to get a little more inventive, here's what you do. It's very simple. Just head to Sephora. Choose a gift that shows how much she is appreciated. It could be a skincare set for a self-care ritual. It could be a fragrance that's uniquely her. It could be any kind of beauty gift from Sephora that will make it easy to put a smile on her face.

55:43Bill Simmons:Think outside the box. Shop Mother's Day gifts at Sephora. All right, I was thinking about this guy today. There was a moment on the double TVs where the Jets were on the clock at 16, right as the Knicks were trying to close out the Hawks with 20 seconds left. And I was, because Sean was supposed to come on tonight and I was like, it's possible Sean might have an aneurysm right now.

56:06Sean Fennessey:You forgot about one thing. What did I forget? While that was happening, the Mets were winning 7-3, and they've been in the midst of this terrible tailspin, and the bases were loaded, and they pulled the pitcher, and they brought in a reliever to pitch to the bases loaded. So the bases were loaded in a 7-3 game in the eighth inning. The Knicks were down by one point with seven seconds to go, and the Jets' pick came in. This happened simultaneously.

56:35Bill Simmons:Unbelievable. Sports is the best. Today was just incredible with the sports that was happening.

56:40Sean Fennessey:But do you know what happened? Do you guys know what?

56:42Bill Simmons:I mean, well, you took a tight end, even though you took a tight end at number 42 last year.

56:46Sean Fennessey:And that was by far the best thing that had happened in that moment because the Mets gave up a grand slam to tie the game and blow the lead. And the Knicks lost when their best player fumbled the ball into the backcourt in the final seven seconds. So that was one of the more convulsive 35 seconds in sports rooting history for me that I can remember. I do feel like this pod is Bill's euphoria and Sean is the Sidney Sweeney at this moment. Like you brought him in just to cry. I think it's a little gratuitous.

57:13Bill Simmons:I have Sean dressed naked like a catcher. No, we agreed today, win or lose. And I genuinely thought the Knicks were going to win today. Yeah. I thought it had all the classic whatever. But yeah. All right. So where do you want to start, Sean? You're down 2-1 in the series. You have the Celtics waiting in round two, hopefully. maybe not maybe Embiid comes back who knows

57:38Sean Fennessey:might do we'll see about that we will see about that

57:40Bill Simmons:Cleveland looked like hawk garbage then in Toronto the east the seas have parted for the Knicks in the east and then you're down 2-1 somehow

57:47Sean Fennessey:um yeah I don't I don't I don't feel good about the series and I don't feel good about the team and I haven't for roughly the last two and a half months of the season and if you watch them play the Hawks in March a game that they won but they seemed severely unprepared for and CJ McCollum also went off in that game and they didn't have an answer for him And so, yeah, I'm already kind of spinning my wheels on, I guess they're going to have to blow this up. And they've also probably made a mistake with Mike Brown. But I'm a catastrophist. So, you know, maybe things will be fine. It's foolish, I think, to lose faith in Jalen Brunson.

58:20Sean Fennessey:He has proven that he is worthy of a little bit more faith than what I'm usually willing to grant. But this is two games in a row where this game is sort of, maybe you guys talked about this, But this game is sort of the inverse, where they were in control for most of game two. And then they really spit the bit in the fourth quarter. And then they played so terrifically well in the fourth quarter of this game. And OG Ananobi has my heart forever. I just love them so much. And they just kind of lost it in the final moments. I thought the defensive alignment in the final possession against the Hawks was super weird going so small.

58:55Sean Fennessey:And then they gave up an eight-footer because they went so small. And then Brunson just lost the ball. I thought the Hawks double teaming him there and just kind of moving away from Hart. Why Hart was even on the floor offensively in that final possession is something you can debate. And I didn't think was smart. So, yeah, I don't know. I feel like shit. I always feel like shit about sports. You know, what am I supposed to do, man?

59:17Bill Simmons:You had three first rounders today. You did that at least.

59:19Sean Fennessey:That was cool. Yeah, I'm actually kind of into that. We can talk about that if you want.

59:22Bill Simmons:Rob, do you have the Catastrophist on 4K Blu-ray? Italian film, 1964. The special features are unbelievable, honestly. Great doc footage. Can we talk about Mikael Bridges and this becoming one of the weirdest stories in the NBA? I think we have to talk about Mikael Bridges. He had zero points in the second half of game two and he had zero points in game three. He had zero and was basically benched for the entire fourth quarter for McBride. And it's not like McBride was shutting anybody down. Rob, what has happened to Mikael Bridges? I would say that this was a weird occurrence if it hadn't been happening for like a month straight now on and off like he's had so many of these games where like you would have to work really hard to have less of an impact on the flow of basketball than Mikael Bridges did in this game like completely transparent he hasn't always been the defender he's been hyped up to be for the Knicks but this was an especially glaring case of that I thought Deuce was like easily outplaying him like it really was an easy call to trade out some of those minutes, but they need something, like just desperately, literally any sign of life from that spot.

1:00:34Bill Simmons:I would have thought he was, I thought him and OG would have been so important in this series against the Hawks' wings. That's the weirdest thing. Like, if there was a series for him, this would be one of the series, I would think. Well, OG lived up, and I would say Josh Hart lived up, right? How much of the Knicks' play in this game resorted to flounder your way through a possession and then get bailed out at the last possible moment by either OG or Josh Hart, or I guess like a desperate a Deuce McBride 3. Like, those were the only options. Yeah, OG had two absolutely ludicrous shot-buzzer, shot-clock-buzzer saving heaves that went in.

1:01:08Bill Simmons:That I think if either of them don't go in, we're probably not even in the final minute in a close game. Like, it really felt like they swung momentum.

1:01:15Sean Fennessey:I think fans would probably feel like the Knicks are even more out of this series than it feels like right now. Because this is a game that maybe kind of got away from them, but they were getting beat pretty much. I mean, they were done at 18 at one point. So it's one of those things where it's usually one of the wings that comes up short when they don't perform well. And sometimes it's Hart and sometimes it's OG. And more recently, especially this season, it seems like Mikael has just still not been able to figure out what his role is, how he makes sense. He just kind of stands in the corner a lot of the time and waits for someone to maybe pass him the ball.

1:01:51Sean Fennessey:And I think fans feel like this was an ill-conceived trade from the moment it happened. And now that we're multi-years into it and he's already been given a new contract, I mean, he's making a lot of money to be scoring zero points in six straight quarters in the playoffs. It's kind of depressing.

1:02:07Bill Simmons:It's kind of how I feel about them locking down Miami Vice 1985, but with Austin Butler as Sonny Crockett. Like, they just kind of shot, they had a great idea and just shot their wad without really thinking about it.

1:02:20Sean Fennessey:Has it been confirmed that he's playing Sonny and not Tubbs? because I think the move is to race swap, is to make MDJ sunny. Wow. Oh, my God. What do you think? That broke my brain.

1:02:37Bill Simmons:Unbelievable.

1:02:38Sean Fennessey:I mean, MDJ has sunny qualities.

1:02:40Bill Simmons:That makes way more sense.

1:02:42Sean Fennessey:So why not do it?

1:02:44Bill Simmons:That's a great idea. Wow. That's why you launched a new newsletter this week about movies because you have great ideas like that.

1:02:50Sean Fennessey:I love movies.

1:02:51Bill Simmons:You really love those movies. So Bridges, is this salvageable? What is this? I think the problem is not just Bridges. It's that to also catastrophize a little bit. This is a Knicks team that has felt like they are one bad day away all season from never speaking to each other ever again. And maybe that is a little bit of projection on our part. Maybe that's a little body language doctoring here and there. But I don't know. They just don't feel connected in terms of the way that they play. And you can tell that when they really do run into walls, guys like Bridges feel completely iced out. They don't know how to contribute.

1:03:28Sean, I think you absolutely nailed it, that he's just idling off to the side as they try to figure out some solution to everything else that ails them. He's not really a participant in it at all.

1:03:40Bill Simmons:I'll tell you, the body language doctor, my front desk was multiple calls today during the game, multiple texts wondering if I was noticing what was happening. The only person who seemed remotely happy to be there was Jose Alvarado, who was like, guys, I'll buy in. I'll be the cheerleader bench guy and try to give everybody some good energy. They would cut to the Knicks bench after big plays. And you could just kind of tell when a team's not that connected. My bigger thing is, if you go Knick by Knick, who feels like they're totally happy with how everything's going? It's probably just Brunson and OG would be the, and maybe Miles McBride.

1:04:20Bill Simmons:I don't know. What do you think, Sean?

1:04:22Sean Fennessey:Even OG at times, you can kind of see him being like, shouldn't this be my team? I'd feel that from him at times where he's feeling there was a moment in the fourth quarter where Brunson brought the ball up and was doubled and OG set a high screen and Brunson went past the screen and it didn't seem like he was going to pass the ball when the double came back to him and then he did pass it to OG and OG went to the basket and he got fouled and I watched OG go back to Brunson and almost say to him like more of that like you can pass me the ball back and I think that's really interesting just because he's obviously if he's a number one, it's not a very good team but he's a really interesting number two and on this team he's number three and the name that we haven't said is Carl Anthony Towns who is like the enigma of enigmas and I thought was like at times brilliant defensively in this game.

1:05:12Sean Fennessey:Really good defensively.

1:05:13Bill Simmons:Yes.

1:05:13Sean Fennessey:And impossible to figure out offensively. I just don't know what to expect from him and so you know I don't know what you do with Bridges you can't take Hart off the team because he's the heart and soul of it and he's Brunson's boy, but also there are times when he's on the floor and you're like, this isn't really a rotation player and a functioning offense. And so they're just a series of awkwardly fitting parts and have been that for two and a half years. And yet this is the best Knicks team since like 1998. So it's just a weird situation.

1:05:48Bill Simmons:Well, and then also it's a team that if you played Boston in a series you would have a ton of confidence as dysfunctional as the Knicks of bed. Yeah, that's true. And Hart was the best guy on the team in game two and was pretty indispensable today. But I agree with you. It never adds up. What is your Josh Hart take, Mahoney, just in general? I have a hard time talking myself into him holistically for exactly this reason. It's like when he's great, everything he does is super loud and incredibly impressive and feels completely indispensable. And then when he's anything less than great, Like his flaws really drag an offense and completely devolve its flow.

1:06:24And I think all of these things are connected, right? When Jalen Brunson gets a little bit ball hoggy, some of it's because maybe defense isn't guarding Josh Hart very much and he's having to over dribble to get where he wants to go. Carl Anthony Towns being, yes, really good defensively in a game like this, but maybe the most complicated star in the entire league if you just wanted to crank up how much he gets the ball. Like he'll just commit four offensive fouls or he'll have heinous turnovers. So it's like you have to work around all of these different things, hard included, to make the Knicks go.

1:06:54And sometimes you just run into walls all game long, like they seem to in this one.

1:07:01Bill Simmons:Sean, do you like this Knicks team?

1:07:05Sean Fennessey:I mean, I love Jalen Brunson. You know, like I just, I think he's really special. And I want him to be great. I want him to be a forever Knick. And I want him to reach the place that I think he deserves to be. and I didn't really get the cat trade and I didn't get the bridges trade. And it has kind of worked insofar as they just win 50 games every year now, which, you know, as recently as five years ago seemed impossible. So I can't, it's not like I dislike them. I really like them. And yet, like I told you the other night, like I wasn't like, I have to see every single second of this game because I feel like every game is kind of the same.

1:07:45Bill Simmons:Yeah.

1:07:46Sean Fennessey:And even in the playoffs, they're down 10.

1:07:47Bill Simmons:They rallied back.

1:07:49Sean Fennessey:Yeah. And so that's a different relationship to the team that I had even a few years ago before the Cat Bridges era when Tibbs was trying to grind, you know, Derek Rose and turn him into 2014 Derek Rose. So I don't know if I love them. I really I love Bronson. It's hard to not think about Giannis right now and like what this could have been. And if they had just a little bit harder. Yeah. You know, so I'm really torn. I still think there's a good chance that they win this series, even though they're down 2-1. And I agree with what you said, Bill. I think against Boston, we've seen it once before.

1:08:25Sean Fennessey:And we match up well with the Wings and a couple of really bad three-point shooting games from the Celtics. And we could be back in the Eastern Conference Finals and anything can happen after that. But tonight sucked.

1:08:36Bill Simmons:Yeah, it's a weird basketball thing because I think Minnesota has it against Denver too. The Knicks have it against the Celtics. These certain matchups where you can tell the team's like, we really like playing this team. this is just a good one for us. And this will happen in football all the time where the right football team plays the right football team and they're just feeling good all the time. I think there's a crazy what if with this Knicks team that probably doesn't get discussed enough. And I'm not just saying this. So Sean dips his head in a vat of acid. Are you sure you're not? The Halliburton shot, I really think, is a sliding doors for this Knicks era because I just think they probably win that series.

1:09:15Bill Simmons:I think that was such a bizarre basketball event. That's the weirdest collapse. And that shot going up 30 feet and coming down and going in. And then the Knicks almost winning an OT. Just that whole game. I just feel like if we play that game 30 times, the Knicks probably win 29 of them. And maybe they make the finals last year instead of the Pacers. And then you're just thinking about this and talking about it completely differently. It was like, well, we were in the finals last year. like there's some sort of validation of what happened but that howburn shot in that game in general just flipped it so now like if you lose to the hawks in round one this all feels like a complete failure but if that shot misses it's not it's a weird point but i i do think it's a point

1:10:01Sean Fennessey:well so how much does it how different is it for example from when the first subway the subway series when the mets play the yankees and they just got dominated and they made it to the world series and like this is great but they got kind of embarrassed on a big on the big stage and likewise when the Knicks went to the finals and faced the Spurs and they just kind of got bullied

1:10:20Bill Simmons:and they shouldn't have been there thanks for that bringing up the Patriots against the Seahawks

1:10:23Sean Fennessey:appreciate that yeah who would you guys draft to tackle why would you need to tackle I thought you I thought you had black oh interesting I did I did I watched the whole Super Bowl yeah I really enjoyed it um I think uh it would be one of those things where if that Knicks team last year had gone to the finals, they would have just gotten their doors kicked in by OKC and we would have been like, all right, cool, they made it to the finals, but they never really materially had a chance to win. The same way that I think this season, no one's like, well, the Knicks do have a chance to win. They don't have a chance to win the finals.

1:10:55Sean Fennessey:They're not going to beat whoever's in the Western Conference. So it's just a little bit hard to feel like that game in particular radically changed the fortunes and future of the franchise. That's fair. But it doesn't mean that that series was not any less painful. And the one thing that on all my Knicks chains today, a lot of like, this is the Pacers all over again, Pacers all over again. It's like, bad matchup. We don't have an answer for this particular player. And a couple things are not going our way. A lot of sloppiness. The head coach seems to have misunderstood the assignment in this matchup.

1:11:27Sean Fennessey:Like, a lot of similar kinds of vibes. And this is the first round and not the second round. But you know what? They were in this position last year with the Pistons, and they prevailed. So we'll see what happens. Well, even down to the second half of the Hawks season being such a resurgent thing, just like the Pacers were. I think a lot of opponents are still trying to get a feel for what exactly the Hawks are. I don't blame the Knicks for being caught a little bit off guard. I wasn't expecting C.J. McCollum to turn into Jesus Christ, but he just has. And now he could do no wrong, and this is the world we live in.

1:11:56Bill Simmons:Sean, will you stick around for a couple other small basketball conversations?

1:12:00Sean Fennessey:I will, but you must be feeling great as a longtime C.J. guy. I know C.J. was one of your boys back in the day, Bill.

1:12:05Bill Simmons:I always really liked him. I really thought that Houston, it's just so funny that Houston didn't get him and needs him so desperately in this Lakers series. They just have to be like, what the hell? Can we talk about OKC? Absolutely. I really feel like, and it's internet driven and social media doesn't mean everything, but I just, in discourse I have with people in my life, like everybody's just like, fuck this. Like they're just tired of the style. And some of it's not fair, but it's really risen to villain level. And I was wondering, they flop and they foul bait enough that do we just give them the nickname Oklahoma City FC?

1:12:44Bill Simmons:Because they're like a soccer team. Does that work for you guys? It's a little abstract. You kind of have to walk your way there. I think we need something a little more straightforward. If we had a Premier League team in the NBA, it would be Oklahoma City. Yeah. Oklahoma City FC. Yeah.

1:12:58Sean Fennessey:There's some sort of Atletico Thunder.

1:13:00Bill Simmons:I just want to workshop some sort of soccer thing with them. But Rob, how fair is the hatred of the tricks that OKC pulls? Because the bottom line is it works. And that's the whole point of, you know, you're trying to win. You're doing whatever you can. It does work. Some of it is, I think, quite earned. Like, Shea does exaggerate a lot of contact. I think that what frustrates a lot of people is just the different thresholds, right? Of you can't touch Shea, but they're allowed to just swarm and hack defensively and be ultra aggressive. to me that feels consistent with everything we've ever seen in modern NBA history which is once you get a reputation for being good at something the refs will mostly just assume that you're doing that great thing again like if you look at the players who get away with the most travels it's all the guys with amazing footwork because you just think oh they pulled it off oh they kept their pivot I think the thunder came by a lot of this stuff honestly in terms of how physically they play defensively but they do get an incredible benefit of the doubt and then some that's just not really their fault.

1:13:55Like, it's not their fault that Devin Booker got called for one of the worst technical fouls I have ever seen in an NBA game. Like, that's not really a Thunder issue so much as it's like Thunder adjacent.

1:14:05Bill Simmons:Sean, I know you have a take and you've been known to just irrationally hate random things.

1:14:10Sean Fennessey:I'm imagining a Thunder Celtics finals and just what, speaking of catastrophes, I mean, that would be a global catastrophe and a very complicated NBA season, I will say, in the perception of the league. Who's excited for that, Bill? Who's pumped? Besides you, obviously. Who's like Thunder Celtics? I'd love to watch that for seven consecutive games.

1:14:32Bill Simmons:I think the Spurs getting to the finals would be the win for the league.

1:14:36Sean Fennessey:I agree.

1:14:37Bill Simmons:I'll be interested to see. I mean, obviously the Lakers getting in would be their wet dream, but I think the Spurs making it all the way would be what they would want, would be my guess. Spurs anyone would be the ideal finals. Sure. Joker going for a second one would be more fun than OKC trying to go back to back. And the Celtics thing, look, if you don't love sports movies and Jason Tatum coming back from his darkest hour and rising from the ashes and coming back, then I don't know what to tell you. You don't like sports movies. You didn't like Christy with Sidney Sweeney, obviously.

1:15:13Sean Fennessey:I could have been better, I think, that movie. Just like I think the finals could be better if it were, I don't know, Detroit, San Antonio. That would be interesting, right? Nixon and Tony would be magic. I feel like y 'all are selling the Thunder a little bit short as an entertainment product. I get that they are despised because of some of their tactics, but their defense is very fun to watch in a watching a cheetah chase down a gazelle in the open range kind of way. I do like the state of nature that they create.

1:15:41Bill Simmons:I like watching the Thunder as well. I hate the foul stuff, but they're not the only team that does it. But I feel the same way, Rob. I think they're... The problem with them is they're up 20 in the second quarter of a lot of these games. You're like, all right, that sucks.

1:15:55Sean Fennessey:Don't you think it would become a pretty significant national talking point, though, if somehow, miraculously, the Knicks got to the finals and faced the Thunder and then two chief foul baiters in the league were toe-to-toe? I mean, how many pods could you do about that particular issue? Because, you know, Brunson, God love him. He has his ways, right? He does. The people who don't watch the NBA regularly who just tuned in for the finals would think their broadcast is flickering, buffering with all the pump fake jab steps, like pivot through the Jalen Brunson and Shea are trying to do.

1:16:29Bill Simmons:Lakers Rockets. Rockets are down 0-2. Austin Reeves coming back. Unbelievable. I think this is one of the most bizarre series that we've had in a while. The Rockets are down 0-2 to a team that basically just ran amok for the first half yesterday with Luke Kennard and Marcus Smart and 41-year-old LeBron and then held on for dear life in the second half. And what's the, Sean, just as somebody that just flicks this stuff on, what's more fun for you, the demise of the Rockets or 41-year-old LeBron carrying the Lakers without Luka?

1:17:08Sean Fennessey:You know who Katie reminds me of recently is Kanye West. Those were two guys in like 2012. I was like, these guys are never going to lose. These guys are unbelievable. They're so naturally gifted. They're on a collision course with destiny, and they will be great forever. And now, is it 0-7 in his last seven playoff games, Kevin Durant is? And obviously not healthy, and getting his ass kicked by the B team from Los Angeles.

1:17:33Bill Simmons:Yeah.

1:17:35Sean Fennessey:Just weird. And, you know, Kanye, let's not talk about that. So, yeah, I think it's unfortunate. I loved watching Kevin Durant play. He broke my heart when he didn't come to New York. and these are just desserts.

1:17:48Bill Simmons:37 years old. He was in the 2007 draft and probably shouldn't be the guy that's handling the ball for 37 minutes a game in the playoffs. What do you think Eman's biggest mistake was? Because he's taken a pretty big beating, Rob. It's a pretty big list. Yeah. I would say spending the last several months not preparing the team to function whatsoever on offense. These are the problems right now, but this is the same team that if you turn them on two months ago, it'd be like, why don't they know how to play out of a double team for Kevin Durant? And here it is all coming home to roost when he's the only guy who can actually handle the ball.

1:18:23So if you wanted Reed Shepard to be a bigger part of your team and you need him to be a bigger part of your team, maybe you should have invested more in his actual on-court development at the incremental stages of the season. It's like, there's all these like long game visions of who the Rockets could have been. And it all got traded out for like, Imeo Doka puffing out his chest and wanting to play like grinders every night of the regular season. And I just think the Rockets are so much worse for it.

1:18:48Bill Simmons:Yeah, I agree. That's why you have the 82 game season's way too long. But one of the benefits is you can keep throwing Reed Shepard out there and trying to get him experience for a series like this. Yeah. The Luke Canard thing's pretty interesting though because I think it's somebody we've always, I think all of us have liked and have seen the ceiling for and it just never happened and he would just bounce around from team to team, and then somehow J.J. Redick has unlocked him. And I think J.J. has been one of the stars of the playoffs. Agreed. Beating the Rockets two games in a row without your two best guys is nuts.

1:19:21Sean Fennessey:Not that surprising that J.J. knows what to do with Luke Kennard. I mean, they have a somewhat similar profile as players.

1:19:27Bill Simmons:Getting DeAndre to have a pulse is way up there, but I don't know. I was watching them in Game 2 as ugly as it is. They still have bad shooters. You know, they I at least understood what they were doing. It wasn't always going to be successful, but there was a plan in place where it's like you watch the Rockets and you're like, I don't understand anything that you guys are doing.

1:19:47Sean Fennessey:When Fred Van Vliet went down, do you think they should have just tried to trade for CJ then in the off season?

1:19:53Bill Simmons:Yeah, that was the name that got mentioned. I think part of the problem was Van Vliet would have had to be in the trade, right? Yeah, with that kind of salary. Well, I think there probably would have been other constructions, but it would have cost you maybe Atari Eason, Dorian Finney-Smith, who they thought was going to be an important part of their team. Maybe some guys like that. Well, CJ made, I think, 30. 30-something. And Van Vliet was at 25. So they could have tried to... And they had all these extra picks. It would have been pretty easy. I didn't understand why they didn't get anybody.

1:20:25Bill Simmons:Why don't they have Dasunmu? It's not like they don't have picks. Great question. They had a bunch of things they could have given up. It's almost like they didn't think they were going to really be competitive or they were saving themselves for next year. I didn't really understand it. But you have Kevin Durant at his age. Like this, again, this is the year. Like you're supposed to be pushing forward once he's a member of your team and not just accepting that, oh, we got a bad break. Let's let Fred rehab and we're going to see where we are next year. Like Kevin Durant might not be a borderline 50, 40, 90 guy on this kind of production next year.

1:20:56Like at some point, the bottom will fall out.

1:20:59Bill Simmons:How would you rate the playoffs so far, Rob? I think quite good for the first round. Like an A -? minus uh like b yeah b plus a minus zone like i think if if this nuggets wolves game tonight had really kicked off then maybe we'd be headed into a pretty special area but the lakers rockets being like a complete flip on what i thought it would be a lot of split series that are hotly contested i mean we got two one-point games in terms of the hawks nicks alone sorry sean but like there's just a lot on the board here that's exciting and surprising and then you have your cj mccallum level stories that are just kind of catching us all off guard.

1:21:33This is kind of what we want.

1:21:35Bill Simmons:The streaming thing's been a little weird.

1:21:37Sean Fennessey:Don't like it.

1:21:39Bill Simmons:It's just weird to not be able to flip channels around. But man, I know this is going to be what the future is of all this stuff.

1:21:46Sean Fennessey:Tonight, because I had three specific sporting events that I was paying close attention to, I had a TV on, a laptop open, and my phone going with all three. And I don't know if I've ever done that before. We don't all multi-view quad box like you, Bill. And it was honestly extremely confusing to my little daughter. She was like, which one of these am I supposed to be paying attention to? And I was like, none of them. Please don't be close to me right now. This is dangerous.

1:22:13Bill Simmons:Please leave. This episode is brought to you by HubSpot. You know why elite point guards make everyone better? This is just the no-look times. It's because they know everything. Who's hot? Who's tired? What the defense is doing? Which teammate needs a basket? Most businesses don't have that. Sales run one play. Marketing runs another. Nobody told service. The game plan has now changed. HubSpot gives you that point guard vision. One platform, full customer context. And that context is everything you need to win. Visit HubSpot.com to learn more. This episode is brought to you by ServiceNow. Look, I already have my dream job.

1:22:56Bill Simmons:I run the ringer, argue with Chris Ryan, a.k.a. CR, but even dream jobs have not so dreamy parts. You know, the work that slows you down never seems to go away. That's where ServiceNow's AI specialists come in. They're like digital teammates who actually do the job start to finish. No handoffs, no homework. That means more time for the work that actually matters, which for me is talking about whether the 86 Celtics can beat the 96 Bulls, which they could. To learn how to put AI out of work for people, visit servicenow.com. Rob, are you excited for Sean's new newsletter? Of course. Where he talks about movies?

1:23:30Can I get a comp subscription or do I have to pay for this thing? What's going on? The answer is yes. Okay. And then I'm very excited about it.

1:23:37Bill Simmons:Sean, I paid right away because I'm wealthy and because I wanted you to have my money for it.

1:23:44Sean Fennessey:Thanks, Bill.

1:23:44Bill Simmons:I didn't ask you for a comp.

1:23:46Sean Fennessey:As you know, I'm also doing this with Spotify. So I'm not totally sure how that financial arrangement works.

1:23:50Bill Simmons:I just wanted to throw my money into the ring.

1:23:54Sean Fennessey:Thank you so much.

1:23:55Bill Simmons:It was great to get it. You did like 4 ,000 words today. Your fingers still work. I was jealous.

1:23:59Sean Fennessey:I did. I might have got a little over the top in the first piece. But yeah, it's really fun. Rob, as you know, and Bill, as you used to know, and we're going to get you out of retirement and get into a newsletter at some point. It's just very... We will? Yeah, we will. I will. It's rewarding to write. It's a different kind of rewarding than doing a show. And I'm enjoying it so far. It is hard. it is actually hard to sit down and focus for several consecutive hours and write something even if it's something as silly as what I've been writing about movies so I'm excited to be doing it I am legitimately like blown away by how cool and nice people are about this and I'm excited to do more next one won't be 4 ,000 words but I don't know what do you want to see me write about what movies are you interested in Bill

1:24:43Bill Simmons:I like first of all I might want to have a paragraph every once in a while I haven't I don't know if I told you about these Lifetime movies I've been watching on Netflix.

1:24:55Sean Fennessey:You did.

1:24:55Bill Simmons:Yeah, I did. I did tell you about those.

1:24:58Sean Fennessey:Gaslit by My Husband.

1:24:59Bill Simmons:Gaslit by My Husband. Nobody Dumps My Daughter was one I saw this week. Netflix has finally figured out Lifetime and Netflix are the marriage everybody needs, Rob. Just have a really good title and somebody with a slightly sinister face in the thumbnail and people are going to click on it. Two of the top 10 right now. The other one was Husband, Father, Killer. It was another good one. But this is the kind of stuff I want to watch late at night when I'm falling asleep. I can't watch Babylon at 1130 at night, Sean.

1:25:29Sean Fennessey:First of all, yes, you can. Yeah, you absolutely can do that. I do it on the regular. I don't want to fall asleep to Babylon. Somebody out there is like staring at a spreadsheet of your browsing algorithmic information and being like, we got him again. Gaslit by my husband. You got America.

1:25:44Bill Simmons:When you're in the top 10, you're in the top 10.

1:25:46Sean Fennessey:Is there not a 10-episode string of recaps of Nobody Dumps My Daughter on the Prestige TV podcast, Rob? Did I miss that? It's actually coming in June. We really wanted to save it for the media's part of the calendar. Really bring people in and be one of our tent poles. I mean, this is what the people want.

1:26:03Bill Simmons:I used to be more involved with the planning and ideation of Prestige TV. And then I let Joanne and Rob kind of sent them on their raft and pushed them in the ocean. And it's worked out 95 % of the time. but then occasionally there'll be the three episodes on beef where I'm like, we probably could have wrapped this up in 40 minutes. I don't know if you saw, did you, you finished beef Rob? I did. That's a prestige product. You're, you're telling me an Oscar Isaac, Carrie Mulligan, Charles Melton show. We could have ripped through it. Oh no, absolutely not. I can't say I, I can't say I finished beef.

1:26:38Bill Simmons:There's gotta be one of those. They have those ratings at the end where it's thumbs up, thumbs down. I wish there were like more options. What do you want? This kept my interest for a few hours, but ultimately, I'm not sure it was worth my time.

1:26:51Sean Fennessey:Yeah, checked out halfway through episode three. That's me on most TV shows.

1:26:55Bill Simmons:I hung on as long as I could. Yeah, the one that we're not covering on Prestige that I'm ashamed to admit I'm enjoying is Imperfect Women.

1:27:06Sean Fennessey:Oh, the Apple series. Yeah. I don't even know what this show is. What is Imperfect Women? Let's go. What is it about?

1:27:12Bill Simmons:It's actors. There's Apple's strategy is it's actors or actresses that you've heard of and liked, but probably haven't really resonated with them in about four years. And now they're in a show where somebody dies in the first three minutes. Yeah. And then we go backwards to try to figure out who did it. So in this one, it's Carrie Washington, Elizabeth Moss and Kate Mara. Long time, long time Grantland ringer, all star. Like Rudy Gobert. Like you go back and you look at her basketball reference and it's like, wow, she was a Grantland all star four straight years. We love Kate. Early 2010s. So it's the three of them and there's a murder mystery and you just kind of turn your brain off and go, which I think is its own.

1:27:51Bill Simmons:That's not prestige TV. That's like another type of TV. But Beef was like a little too much work for me. There was a little too much going on. A little too much work. Yeah, and it wasn't good enough for all the work was where I landed.

1:28:02Sean Fennessey:Bill, I actually wanted to pitch you on a show for Apple that is based on some of the IP we have here at The Ringer. It's called Mysterious Podcasters. Oh. three actors that look a lot like you and Rob and Chris Ryan. And, you know, we can talk about who those actors should be based on your comps. But it's the three of you guys in the tile image huddled around a single microphone. And like one of you is like nudging the other out of the way and fighting for space. And it's like a dramedy, you know? It's not pure drama. There are laughs in it. But also there's like a real mystery at the center.

1:28:36Sean Fennessey:One of you killed one of your former podcast partners. And we have to figure out who did it.

1:28:42Bill Simmons:Well, Greenwald dies. He's in the first scene. He's dead. And then it turns out at the end, Chris wanted to watch for himself, but nobody realized that for seven episodes.

1:28:51Sean Fennessey:Yeah, mysterious podcasters coming soon to Apple TV+. I really like that. It feels like a written by Jason Segel production. I feel like he could nail the tone of exactly what we're going for. Jason Segel are about the same height, Rob. Yeah, seriously. Rob's a sneaky tall guy. You know what? I'm not opposed to it. Let's get Jason on the phone. He used to ball as well.

1:29:09Bill Simmons:the key the key with these shows is the thumbnail and the title does 97 of the work you really have to nail both like beef is great it's four letters and you could just put some sort of crazy thumbnail and you're ready to roll but i mean so sean i i deep dived the binge the the pit did oh yeah i heard you talking to joe about it yeah i did two straight seasons in about five days and now i just have a hole in my heart. It's just gone. Well, they can fix that. You're just going to roll into the ER. They'll get you fixed up. I'm just waiting for Dr. Robbie just to figure out what happened with him.

1:29:46Bill Simmons:But it's so funny that they just unlocked this strategy of, hey, it's going to be a doctor series like everything else, except it's going to be every hour and it's going to be grosser than a network show.

1:29:57Sean Fennessey:My biggest challenge with The Pit is I did really enjoy when TV shows had 22 episodes in a season and it felt like we were spending a lot of time with these characters and building a relationship with them. I, like you, Bill, was a huge ER fan. Watched every episode of the first six or seven seasons. At this stage of my life, when they're like, yeah, there's going to be 18 episodes in this season. I'm like, nope. I won't be there. I'm like, good luck. Sounds like you guys have got an Emmy-winning product. Happy for Noah Wiley. But I just can't find the time. I'm sorry. Look at all these Blu-rays.

1:30:30You say this, but when it comes time to do the Transformers Hall of Fame, you're like yeah let me just mainline these real quick i mean i don't even have to prepare for that

1:30:36Bill Simmons:we can do it right here yeah the irony of you saying that when it's you're doing like a 1978 hall of fame draft or movie movie draft and then you watch 20 movies from 1978 in the span of three

1:30:49Sean Fennessey:days but it doesn't have time for dr robbie but that's like saying to an architect why are you spending all that time drawing those blueprints. This is the raw materials. These are the brain gems that are necessary to make that draft or that Hall of Fame. The pit is like, that's something you do in your free time. And 18 of them, no, I'm good.

1:31:14Bill Simmons:You're missing Nurse Dana, though, who is one of your favorite characters of all time.

1:31:19Sean Fennessey:What's her story?

1:31:21Bill Simmons:She's just the one that sucks everyone in who jumps in on the pit. After one episode, they're like, I love Dana. I don't know. What is it about Dana, right? I can't even just a gruff real talking you know nurse running the place you know a woman in charge that appeals to a lot of people pittsburgh accent goes out has has cigarettes outside the the front door of the

1:31:39Sean Fennessey:hospital just dart after dart after yeah just smoke a dart cr speed than mine oh it is not

1:31:45Bill Simmons:just cr speed it is it's cr's in fifth gear cr's on an f1 course flying around uh cr and i simultaneously we're watching season one of Miami Vice and he kind of floated a, why wouldn't we just recap season one of Miami Vice? And we decided that would be the all time one for us. I don't think, I don't think America wants it. I don't think we can get a sponsor for it. I don't know what feed it would go on, but we did talk about it.

1:32:16Sean Fennessey:Maybe you just need the news peg of the new movie. Oh, I was going to say, if you want me to host it on the newsletter, then that's an option. Just to get everybody prepped for Miami Vice 85. There's video capabilities, you know?

1:32:28Bill Simmons:On the newsletter?

1:32:29Sean Fennessey:Yeah, sure.

1:32:30Bill Simmons:You could do like little 10-minute episodes?

1:32:32Sean Fennessey:Yeah, I mean, I'm not planning to do that because I'm already, this is my fourth podcast of today. Is it really? It is really. It's just a bad coincidence.

1:32:43Bill Simmons:Fourth podcast?

1:32:44Sean Fennessey:Yeah, I never usually, I never do that, but I'm promoting news. Also, the Mets are on fire, so I had to talk to Zach earlier this morning.

1:32:51Bill Simmons:The newsletter is called Projections. you're also going to be on not the upcoming rewatchables because we do Ghostbusters but you're on the one after

1:33:00Sean Fennessey:the next one I'm pumped about it I'm really excited about the next one

1:33:03Bill Simmons:won't say what it is yet but we're doing a bunch of comedies next month Rob Rob's come on the rewatchables twice and had two of the hottest takes in the history of the show they're very normal takes he said Russell Crowe and nice guys dog walked gladiator for the Oscar you know was the last one no I said Joaquin dog walked Russell Crowe as gladiator. It's a very important distinction. Sorry, I screwed that up. Yeah.

1:33:31Sean Fennessey:I'm very familiar with the Nirvana take. I believe that you should be sentenced to prison and spend the rest of your life there for that take. It was really good podcasting. Thank you, I appreciate it. As long as it's white collar, as long as I can play a little pickup basketball, have a nice cafeteria lunch, I'm not opposed to some prison time. No, you're going under the prison in the Gulag, and you'll be tortured every day. But at least I'll be my authentic self, unlike all of the members of the grunge movement. That's really, how dare you? And wipe that smirk off your face right now. I'm going to get violent here, Bill.

1:34:11Bill Simmons:I blew Sean and Chris and Yassi. I was saying how the whole replacements now retroactively being on the same level as R.E.M. is one of the things that infuriates me the most about what's happened with music in the last 35 years. And that devolved into basically a screaming match on text. But the important thing to know is I was right.

1:34:33Sean Fennessey:Well noted. Rob, how are you going to follow that up, though? Like now every time you're on the show, you have to come with some nuclear take. And you spoke of men like Eddie Vedder and Chris Cornell being inauthentic. But now when you perform a take, we'll know you have reached beyond the pale. I think I just can't go on the rewatchables again. I think I just got to like take my bow, exit through the fire escape, never return.

1:34:59Bill Simmons:We're bringing you on for From Hell Month. You're not going to miss From Hell Month in June. It's five movies. Oh, wow. That does sound quite exciting. Yeah, From Hell. All right, Sean, good luck with projections. Mahoney, can hear you on Prestige TV and watching there, as well as Ringer NBA with their... How's the new guy, Kyle Mann? That's going all right? Kyle's crushing it. New guy energy? New guy energy, a very particular energy from Kyle Mann, but I think he brings us a folksiness that we desperately need. That's coastal elites for sure. All right. Thanks for popping on. See you guys. Thanks, Bill.

1:35:32Sean Fennessey:Thanks, Bill.

1:35:34Bill Simmons:All right, that's it for the podcast. Thanks to Mahoney and Sean. Thanks to Gahal and Eduardo as well. Don't forget about the rewatchables, which went out Monday at Kindergarten Cop. Don't forget about Legata. Please check that out. New Ringer original series. And I am going to be back this weekend with Zach Lowe. We'll be coming on Netflix Live right after the last playoff basketball game, whatever it is, or whenever that game has been decided. If it's a 20-point blowout in the third quarter, we'll come on earlier. So enjoy the weekend. I know it's great on the East Coast right now. I wish I was back in Boston, but it's nice here in LA too.

1:36:09Bill Simmons:Enjoy the weekend. See you on Sunday. I want to see them on the wayside. I don't have a few years with them on the wayside. I'm the first time I ever saw. 21 plus and present in select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 plus and present in DC, Kentucky, or Wyoming. Opt-in required. Rewards are non-withdrawable. Restrictions apply, including bonus and token expiration, leg requirements, and max wager amounts. See terms at sportsbook.fando.com. Gave a problem, call 1-800-GAMBLE or 1-800-MY-RESET. Call 888-797-777 or visit ccpg.org slash chat in Connecticut or mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland.

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