NFL Preseason Hype Buy or Sell. Plus, Spike Lee on Basketball and Movies | With Danny Kelly

21:10Like he was just, it looked easy for him. So, you know, getting a left tackle at that spot, pretty incredible. So if he can stay healthy, that's obviously a huge, huge boost for them.

21:21Bill Simmons:So first three weeks, they're playing the Chargers in San Paolo. God only knows what that field's going to be. Eagles week two at home. And then at Giants week three. And then Ravens week four. Dang. So no Rasheed Rice those first four weeks. And I could see the same like, ah, Chiefs offense. And then by midseason, they'll be going. You know, I did that. You already knew that I had Allen as the top quarterback. And of course, a lot of people were upset about that. Mahomes fans and Chiefs fans. he was sixth in MVP last year six he didn't even throw for 4 ,000 yards and then he didn't win the Super Bowl and it's not like he was like amazing in the playoff games I don't feel bad about it I think Josh Allen right now in this moment week to week from a durability standpoint and just everything you want is still the best guy if I had to bet my life on a guy for one game I would still bet on my homes but that's not the exercise It's like, who would you rather have for an entire season?

22:27Bill Simmons:And I just think Josh is the best guy for that question. I don't feel bad about it. I know you probably disagree. I mean, I think when you were talking, I was in my head thinking, if my life depends on one guy executing a drive in the fourth quarter, I'm going with Mahomes. So maybe that's why you go with that. But if you're explicitly saying the full season, big picture, complete package, I can understand it. But I still probably go with Mahomes. It's more of just like a lore and confidence in him getting it done in the crunch time type of thing than anything. Than Allen. I went back and I watched the fourth quarter of the Chiefs-Bills game, and I think I blocked the Kincaid play out of my mind.

23:09Bill Simmons:I forgot how amazing Allen was on that play to get that pass off. And then if Kincaid catches it, it becomes this legendary Josh Allen comes through. You just think like... That's why I think it's way closer. It's a good argument. It's way closer than people think. What do you have for the next hype thing? Well, I'm surprised you haven't said this, so maybe I'm stealing it from you, but Travion Henderson as the new Jameer Gibbs or insert any super exciting explosive electric running back into that sentence. Just to be fair. The Travion Henderson buzz. To be fair. I was hoping and praying you would bring it up.

23:48Bill Simmons:I was saving. I thought if it came from me, it wouldn't be as genuine. I am buying this so hard. I'm buying it 100%. You know, obviously it's very early, but the fact that he took his first NFL touch 100 yards for a touchdown is like, you kind of can't ignore that. The thing that I loved about him, you know, going back to the draft, I actually had him, I have him and Omar and Hampton right next to each other, but I had Henderson over Hampton just slightly because of some of the stuff he can do in the passing game and just the pure juice that he brings. He's just so explosive. And the pass blocking.

24:20Bill Simmons:which was like they've never had a guy who had speed like this, but could also pass block. Yeah. And, you know, add in everything you heard about him at Ohio state was just like, he is the alpha. He's the best guy. Everybody absolutely loves this guy so much. In terms of just like the character and everything. So I am so excited about what he can bring to this offense. Obviously explosive element you heard about, I think today he had some 70 yard touchdown. Yeah. The second don't like, I didn't follow that. Yeah. He's breaking plays left and right. It's just, if he gets in the open, he's just gone.

24:54I think it's like, simultaneously, you can't buy in too much to the running back hype when it comes to the preseason because they're not hitting. Sorry, when it comes to training camp and everything because they're not hitting, they're not tackling as much. But with him, it's passing game and what they can do with him in the passing game, vertical routes. I've seen multiple highlights of him running down the sideline, whether it's wheel routes or vertical routes. I just think he's a really dynamic, big play creator and is going to give the Patriots the type of juice that they really do need on their offense.

25:29Like, who else gives them juice right now?

25:31Bill Simmons:Kyle Williams is the other chance, and then Diggs, it becomes back. But they have way more speed than they had last year. Yeah, and I think just in the NFL, in this era, you have to have explosive playmakers, especially in an era when teams are trying so hard to limit the big play. like this is the type of guy who can create big plays, who can, you know, in theory, get teams to kind of like load the box a little bit more because you start to threaten in the run game. I still think that they're going to use Ramondre Stevenson quite a bit, but Trayvon Henderson as a complimentary, you know, the Jameer Gibbs, David Montgomery type of thing, I think he has some real potential.

26:08And I am like unabashedly all in on this hype right now. I'm loving it.

26:13Bill Simmons:They've had no explosiveness, much like the Chiefs last year, where if you don't have a couple guys in the field who can scare you a little bit. So this Henderson thing, if somebody stole my phone and looked at my text, they're basically all about Roman Anthony and Travion Henderson. Yeah, yeah. And whether Jason Tatum can come back by the All-Star break. But so you mentioned Gibbs. And it's, first of all, Henderson I think is still like 15-1 to be Offensive Rookie of the Year on FanDuel. something like that maybe it's gone down a little bit because the hype has started but you mentioned Gibbs and it's like man it would be amazing if he could be Jameer Gibbs he's only been in the league two years but they took him 12th and it was like this is a weapon this is this toy here are Gibbs' stats his first year 182 rushes for 945 yards and 10 touchdowns rushing then catching he was 52 for 316 his longest catch and run was 20 yards.

27:16Oh, that's surprising. If Henderson doesn't, I'm sorry, 24 yards.

27:23Bill Simmons:If Henderson doesn't beat that, I'm going to be shocked. Yeah. I think he can get, first of all, if he plays 17 games, if he stays on the field, which I think he can, because he's one of those like short, all muscle, like he, I think he can cuss somebody on Washington last week. The guy put his head down. Yeah, he trucked a guy. Bulldozed him, he trucked him. But it's like, could he get 50 to 60 yards a week rushing, but then in the passing game, be like a 60 catch, but maybe like a 500 or 550 guy because he'll break two or three during the season. And then if that's the case, not only are you in the offensive rookie of the year combo, but you're in like, could you be an RB2 for somebody in fantasy, which I actually think he can.

28:06Bill Simmons:And the thing with him is they can pass block with him. McDaniel had some stealth quotes about him that did get recognized by the true Pats fans, where he was comparing him to Danny Woodhead, Shane Vereen, James White, some of these third down backs. And he was just like, he's just has way more juice than, and I love those guys, but he has way more juice than those guys had and can block. So they've never really had anybody like this, but this is for what McDaniels does. This is the kind of guy he loves. We've just never had a guy this talented in that spot. So I don't think you can do enough.

28:40Bill Simmons:Not only am I buying the hype, I'll buy everyone else's hype. I'm just, if there's an island, I'm buying condos on it. I'm ready to go. I am all in. And honestly, it's a miracle that he fell to 38. It's a miracle because Cleveland had 36 and took his teammate who's already gotten into trouble off the field. But in the moment, people were like, whoa, they took, it was honestly like a Nick Chubb's Sonny Michel situation where it's like, ooh, you took the wrong guy from the college. So to get that guy at 38 is a miracle. I can't believe it. There was a lot of buzz that he was going to be a first rounder coming into the draft.

29:17I think there was people taking the over on running backs in the first round. Gentry and whoever else it might have been, Travion or whoever. Hampton. And Hampton. And I think it's really just because he wasn't necessarily a quote-unquote full-time running back in college Like maybe that was the difference that, that he fell a little bit. But I mean,

29:38Bill Simmons:my question is why couldn't he be like, or maybe he could be like a, could he be like a 17 carries a game guy plus a pass catch guy? If he can block and he's just built like a fucking truck, like why couldn't he play? We have short running backs. I mean, I think he could. I think the worry is he was banged up several times in college. The wear and tear thing. Yeah. Okay. I get it. But yeah, I mean, overall, you know, where do running backs really differentiate themselves? I think big plays, passing game stuff, obviously breaking tackles. I don't know if he's like a huge tackle breaker, but I think what he is is a, you know.

30:17He's a nobody-touches-em guy.

30:19Bill Simmons:Right. He's like, you know, the pursuit angle killer. He gets past pursuit angles because he's so explosive. And so I think, you know, he has potential to be a really valuable player, regardless of the position, just because of what he can do and how he protects the quarterback. The Patriots' first two picks were designed to help protect Drake May. Will Campbell and Travion Henderson, both those guys, are going to protect Drake May. So I can see the logic. I think it was a great job by the Patriots, obviously. Well, and then in the third round, they get a left guard. So they actually have the semblance of we can actually protect Drake May.

30:53Bill Simmons:Now they need Drake May to protect himself and not take on seven guys. Let's take a quick break, and then we'll do the rest of the buy or sell guys. For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters. Tremphaya offers self-injection or intravenous infusion from the start. Tremphaya is administered as injections under the skin or infusions through a vein every four weeks, followed by injections under the skin every four or eight weeks. If your doctor decides that you can self-inject Tremphaya, proper training is required. Tremphaya is a prescription medicine used to treat adults with moderately to severely active Crohn's disease and adults with moderately to severely active ulcerative colitis.

31:35Bill Simmons:Serious allergic reactions, increased risk of infections or lower ability to fight them and liver problems may occur. Before treatment, get checked for infections and tuberculosis. Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms or need a vaccine. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Tremphaya today. Call 1-800-526-7736 to learn more or visit trimfiradio.com. This episode is brought to you by PayPal. All right, parents, PayPal's on your team this back to school. I've been there myself. You're paying for sports gear, backpacks, sneakers, laptops. You've likely got multiple carts, your favorite online stores.

32:16Bill Simmons:Well, that's when PayPal comes in with the assist. Pay in four. No interest, no fees. Truly game-changing. Subject to approval. Learn more at paypal.com slash pay in four. PayPal Inc. NMLS 910457. All right, go ahead. You're up. Buy or sell. I am buying the Tedaroa McMillan hype that we're seeing in the preseason here. I'm surprised. I'm selling. I'll sell mine to you. Okay. Okay. I'll buy it. I'm scooping up as many shares as I can. I think he is exactly what Bryce Young needs in terms of a true number one X receiver guy that can win in the short middle, you know, and deep areas, big body. And the, the important part is I think he does what he does for the rest of the skill group for the Panthers.

33:06It's like a cascading effect where he's the true number one. You got Adam Thielen, who is a steely veteran. He could be the number two. He's not, at this point in his career, he's not going to be a good number one. Xavier Ligat, who they drafted in the first round, can be like an explosive after-the-catch playmaker kind of design, manufacture some touches for him. He's not going to be a true number one type guy. And then they have a couple other players. Jalen Coker is getting some hype. And it kind of just rounds out that receiver group. And I think Bryce Young can really, you know, continue what he did in the second half of last year, which was, I mean, one of the big storylines, obviously, kind of flew into the radar because the Panthers were so bad.

33:40But Bryce Young being really good in the second half of the year obviously could be a type of thing where it saves Panthers franchise for the next like five years.

33:50Bill Simmons:Are we going really good? How about, can we just go with good? Sure. Pretty good? You mean Bryce Young or just Ted McMillan? Bryce Young, like, I don't know, really good is. Yeah, I wouldn't put him in like the top 10 or anything like that. He was horrific to start his career. He was not a bust. And then it was like, ah, Bryce Young, pretty good. Yeah. I don't know what to expect from him this year. Why are you out?

34:19Bill Simmons:Big receivers, I feel like, take a little bit of a while, especially as rookies. And I just think they're counting on him too much. I can't remember that many guys just coming in right away, built like him, who are just reliable, dominant, number one receivers for a team. Like even DK when he came in, the other DK, DK Metcalf. Right. who I think had, if I remember correctly, a good rookie season. But he also was on a team that had other good receivers and they could kind of ease him in. So that would be the only thing I worry about with him. I have a receiver I was going to throw at you. Okay.

35:00Bill Simmons:As you know, one of my specialties is sniffing out the training camp quotes about people on a team when the quotes hit a certain level where you're like, oh, this feels real. And you can, like Jaden Daniels was a good one last year. If you read anything about Jaden Daniels in Washington last year, every story, the way teammates talked about him, the way coaches talked about him, the media, the practices, it was like, shit, something's happening here. I didn't have the balls to pick them to make the playoffs, but it was like, clearly something special is happening with them. Yeah, yeah. So there's a first round pick that's not Abdul Carter.

35:39Bill Simmons:that this is happening for, and it's under the radar, and I'll be interested to see if you can guess it. I'll give you one guess. First round pick. It's somebody you liked who went a tiny bit later than he was supposed to go. And it's a receiver? See, now I'm giving you hints. If I tell you that, you'll know who the answer is. I was going to say Emeko Buka. That's the answer. Yes. Yeah. Just Google, people listening, after you finish this, Google Emeki Agbuka hype and read all the stories. In fact, there's one right here from Buccaneers where hype continues to rise for Buccaneers top pick. But everyone's just like, this guy's awesome.

36:21Bill Simmons:And it's very similar to the Brian Thomas Jr. last year where from the moment he got to the Jaguars, people were like, this guy's awesome. And the teammates were like, that guy's fucking awesome. We did this drill today and he toasted nine people and he's just, so he might just be really good. which to me, I know Werfs is out for a few weeks, but if Godwin can actually come back and be where he was before he got hurt, and you have Mike Evans there still, but then you have this other guy who could be this year's BTJ for all we know, does that change how you think about the Bucs at all? Yeah, I mean, I think it definitely gives them the boost that they need with Werfs being out and them losing Liam Cohen.

37:01I think there's just question marks over what this offense is going to be like with those types of losses, but everything that you've heard about him at Kekbuka so far, like you said, it's just been, they're not even asking people about him. And like, you got players talking about him. Like he's so, so great. That's when,

37:17Bill Simmons:you know, this is like, this happened with your guy, Russell Wilson rookie year. This is when I picked Seattle to make the Superbowl. Cause all the quotes were like, Russell Wilson, holy shit. Yeah. This is unbelievable. I can't believe what he's doing. And it feels like that's the case with Kekbuka. Well, and it reminds me, it's funny, like another homer pick for me it reminds me a lot of doug baldwin's first training camp where doug baldwin he was really under the radar undrafted free agent and so obviously it's a little bit different because buka was a first rounder but like immediately upon getting to training camp everyone watching because in those days you still can you can just go watch seahawks training camps and everyone knew immediately like this guy's making the team he's really good he's probably their best receiver um because he was just toasting people every day like a big player or two every day.

38:05I think that's what's happening with Ibuka. I mean, and it makes sense. He's like really experienced, great hands, really good route runner, really good blocker, high character. He just has a really high floor and that was kind of what I had ranked 13th overall in the draft, I think. And people were kind of not quite sure.

38:23Bill Simmons:Six, seven spots lower than that? Eight? Where did he go in the 20s? I don't remember off the top of my head exactly. Because I remember he dropped because nobody needed a receiver for like six, seven picks was the reason. And it was, I mean, I remember my reaction to the pick was like, oh, that's kind of weird actually. Like I didn't expect the Buccaneers. They just, I think, re-signed Chris Godwin to a big contract. Jalen McMillan last year was pretty good in the second half. Well, the GM basically said like, this guy was the best guy on our board. Like we didn't even really need a receiver, but we couldn't not take him.

38:57Bill Simmons:So we took him. He was a 19th pick. But, you know, I think there was concerns that he did. Number one, he's not like the most explosive guy. So I think people have sort of a bias against first-round receivers should be super explosive. How are we still doing that? It's so fucking stupid. But he catches everything. You know, he's a big-body guy, really reliable. You know, I think Ohio State's all-time leading receiver. And that's like on teams with, you know, Chris Alave, Garrett Wilson. Like, obviously, he never led his team in receiving. But he was just so reliable year in and year out. And he kind of fell off a little bit because he had some injuries.

39:33that his production suffered a little bit.

39:35Bill Simmons:He's going to be on all my fantasy teams. I love him. What do you have as your next one? I'm going with, I'm selling the Jets, Justin Fields experiment. Speaking of Ohio State. Wow. Okay. I think for fantasy, it's going to be good. So we have to delineate there because I think for fantasy, he's really exciting. He's getting pushed up right now. I think I saw in one rank, he was QB 11. So he's getting pushed up the ranks. well because you figure he if he's 10 for 70 rushing every week I mean yeah he's gonna run the hell out of the ball their offensive line is pretty good or it could be really good but I mean he to me Fields is one of those he's a classic story of highly drafted quarterback goes to a bad team you get stuck with multiple offensive coordinators throughout your first few years get traded to you know and kind of it's just like it just never really happens and I think with him, I, you know, you remember I was really high on him.

40:32I thought he was going to be a really good pro, but he just doesn't, he just doesn't work quickly enough in the pocket. And I don't know if he can necessarily fix that. I think there will be good games here and there, but overall, I mean, if you look at some of the stats from last year, when he was on the Steelers, 39 % success rate, which was 36 out of 39 quarterbacks that qualified, 12 % sack rate, which was dead last, 45 % pressure rate, which was dead last among those 39 quarterbacks. He just takes so many sacks. He doesn't get rid of the ball quick enough.

41:04Bill Simmons:And I don't feel like when you're down 10 with him in the fourth quarter, the game's over. That's what I was going to say next. It's basically like they have to have the game script that's kind of just perfect for what he does. And so as much as... If you're up 13 to 6 with 10 minutes left, it's great. Run, run, run, play action. Then you're okay with him. So I'm in on the fantasy portion of it, and I don't know if anyone's really that excited, but this last preseason game, like he looked pretty, there was some exciting plays and he ran in for a touchdown. So I'm trying not to let myself get too excited about the Justin Fields thing because I bought into the field stuff earlier in his career and I don't want to fall for it again.

41:44Bill Simmons:I've test drove the Jets over, you know, because I had a figure. What is it at right now? It's low. I think it's five and a half. Their schedule's pretty hard, especially if the Dolphins end up being good, which I don't think they will be, but I think the Pats are going to be better and the Bills are in there. But I can't get there. I think it'll be they'll have two upsets during the season where they run the ball really well, they have a lead, they don't have a turnover. I could see them being a tease buster, but I'm with you on fields. I just thought it was too hard for him when you actually need your quarterback to move the ball down the field and throw the ball.

42:27Bill Simmons:I just don't think he can do it. Also, they don't have any receivers after Garrett Wilson. I mean, their number two right now is, I think, Josh Reynolds. Then they have a rookie tight end. You can't expect a rookie tight end to elevate an offense. It rarely happens. I mean, Brock Bowers is a special, special player. I think it's going to happen with Tyler Warren a little bit on the Colts. I'm happy to throw in there on the hype list. Do that. Let's do that. I just think he should have been the first tight end. I like that he didn't go first because now he's got the chip on the shoulder that he didn't go first.

42:59Bill Simmons:Yeah, yeah. They actually really need him. They have two quarterbacks that I don't trust with wide receivers at all, and they are probably going to be throwing them the ball anyway. So I just, he's jumping out to me as, you know, Bowers is above everybody and then Kittle. But then if you go into that next tier, like, am I going to pay$15 for whoever and I can try to get this guy instead at four or five, like I'm just going to do that. Yeah, how surprised are you going to be if he's the top receiver on that team this year? He might be. Pittman broke his back last year and he's like, yeah, I don't trust him.

43:35It's hard to trust him. Josh Downs, I think he's a really good player, but who knows what's going on with this quarterback situation. I think that they're going to scheme up like three to four plays a game for Tyler Orman. And that's like his floor, you know, in the sense where you're doing screens, RPOs, maybe even get him in the backfield a little bit. He did that a ton, actually, at Penn State. I don't know if they'll do that in the NFL when you have Jonathan Taylor back there too. But, you know, get creative with what he can bring as a run-off-the-catch guy. And he's kind of in that. I don't think he's the level of, you know, like player that George Kittle is clearly at this point in his career, but he brings the run-off-the-catch ability.

44:13I think that's like reminiscent of Kittle where he's just trucking dudes, jumping over him. stiff armoring him, things like that.

44:21Bill Simmons:I loved him in the draft. He was too high for the Pats to take at four, but if they had traded back a couple spots and taken him, I wouldn't have been furious about it. I couldn't believe he fell to 14. There's no way he was not one of the best 13 guys in the draft, so we'll see. And the Leveland, I don't know. That seemed to be more of a higher ceiling pick, but Warren seemed really, really good to me. Was that you or me? Who's up? You? That was you. Oh, you're up. Let's see. I'm saving my big one for last. I feel very torn on this, so I'm just going to send it. I'm buying the Jags revival with Liam Cohen.

45:01Oh, my God. How can you do this?

45:07There's absolutely no evidence to support the fact that they'll be bad again, right? No. I mean, obviously, this goes against my better judgment. We do this every year, I feel like. but I don't know. The Travis Hunter being able to play on both sides of the ball, I think that will make an impact. I don't know if he's going to be a massive, massive impact year one on both sides of the ball. I think the Liam Cohen thing is really what I'm excited about the most, so getting a coherent offense, getting Trevor Lawrence kind of into his groove, hopefully a little bit where he's not making these just ill-advised throws and doing the kinds of things that he's done the last couple of years.

45:43We were doing so well. The other thing here that I will say, and I think this does matter, is they have the sixth easiest schedule per Warren Sharp. So they're in a bad division with a good play calling, new head coach, get that bump. Brian Thomas Jr., explosive playmaker. Travis Hunter, another explosive playmaker. God, why am I doing this? I don't know why I'm doing this, but I am.

46:05Bill Simmons:You should know since you had a shitty offensive line last year on your favorite team, the Seattle Seahawks. Hey, they won 10 games. Yeah, but you had a way better all-around team. like this, their line's going to be the combo of the offensive line and Lawrence. Why am I going to feel good about that? Not to mention, Travis Etienne and who's the other dude? Bigsby. They still haven't figured that out. People are trying to get us to get the Travis comeback year. No thanks. Had him last year for like 30 bucks. The only case for them, because I did look at this, because it's like, I'm going to spend the next week trying to figure out who I settle on here for the out of nowhere team.

46:51Bill Simmons:Last year I had Pittsburgh and I nailed it. Everyone was off Pittsburgh. Everyone had them third place and 500 team. And I was trying to figure out who is the out of nowhere playoff team because we have all the ones people always talk about. Could Jacksonville be the team? The case would be the first three weeks where they're home for the Panthers. They're at Cincinnati, who always starts out slow. And then like an upset against Houston. And now they're playing at San Francisco in week four. McCaffrey's already hurt. And now it's like the Jaguars are 4-0. Oh, my God. Travis Hunter, what a trade.

47:28Bill Simmons:And so I was trying to play it out of my head, and I just can't get there. But they have their third-place schedule, which means they get the Jets, Bengals, and Panthers, which I don't mind. But they do have to play the AFC West and then the NFC West, who we'll see if they're any good. But I can't quite get there with Lawrence. Lawrence, to me, is like, you're going to have to shock me and prove that you're actually good again. But I don't know. I respect the hype. So I'm buying it. You're selling it. Can we just do McCaffrey quick? Because it's a blind sell for me. People are trying to hype me back.

48:05Bill Simmons:Don't be surprised if he's the number one fantasy guy again. Guess what? I'm going to be surprised. The guy cannot stay in the field. He's older. and I just don't see it. And I think it's the worst kind of fantasy guy to have because you're spending, you're not spending$60 anymore, but you're still in the 40s and maybe you're even in a bidding war with your drunk buddy and now I'm up to 49 and I really want him and now, oh fuck, now I'm paying 50 and then two weeks in, it's like, I'm having, I have my Achilles starting to feel tight now and I got the red flag. Oh no, McCaffrey has the red flag.

48:41Bill Simmons:What happened? Oh, tendinitis. Oh no, he's going to play. Nope, he's not playing. Oh, he's out. Well, he's going to see a specialist. I'm out. I'm not doing it. No, thank you. He's going to Germany to do some stuff. Yeah, I'm out. I'm out. We've all been there with him and no thank you anymore. I think the only argument, the counter to that is when he's on the field, he has been the best fantasy. You feel great. He's the best fantasy player of this generation, right? But this begs the question, is it better to not have that at all in your life or to have tasted it? And then it gets pulled away when they get red flagged.

49:18Bill Simmons:You're like, oh man, I had those three weeks with McCaffrey. And it was so great. I'd almost rather not know what it feels like. I totally understand what you're saying, though. I think it's tough. Ultimately, you're not trying to get seventh place in your league. You're trying to get first place. And so this was your, this was your, your H hand last year. This is your, this was your theory on this. Go for the gusto. Yeah. And, but I will say, um, McCaffrey and Shanahan lied to our faces last year about like what he was going to be in, which obviously whatever, that's their prerogative. But from a fantasy point of view, it's easier to do this when coaches are, and players are honest, um, about kind of like where they are.

50:01So I don't trust that team. And then the hard, the worst part, and this is something I experienced is trying to figure out the handcuff situation to McCaffrey. Like with a lot of players, it's like, oh, if I, if I get this guy, I'll just grab his backup. And then that way I'm insured against this injury or whatever. I could still get this team's run game.

50:20Bill Simmons:But now you're spending$7 on his backup. Yeah. But the end, the 49ers are the most cursed team I've ever seen in my life. When it comes to running back injuries, every one of their running backs just constantly gets hurt. So you're like playing whack-a-mole, trying to figure out who to play week in and week out. Is it Isaac Garendo? Is it Jordan James? Is it, you know, Jeff Wilson, who I think they just re-signed? It's like, I just, and then who knows what Shanahan's, who's going to be in Shanahan's doghouse this week. So I think it's, you know, obviously the upside of hitting on McCaffrey and getting the, you know, he's literally like an RB1 and a wide receiver two or three in one spot in your roster, which is immensely valuable.

51:00so the upside is is worth i think worth betting on but it's going to be a miserable experience for you you're going to probably you know every time a little red cross is next to his name you know on the app it's just going to stress you out so um it just depends on how much risk

51:15Bill Simmons:you want to take on the problem is there's no value for it because you're overpaying right while being worried about the red flag which is the worst place to be in fantasy um yeah Let's do a couple quick ones. But before we do that, I just want to say Shadour is off the table. Okay. We're not talking about it or what? Who knows? I'm rooting for it. It would be fun if the Browns had a good QB. But the people going nuts about week one preseason, it's fine just to not have an opinion sometimes. It's like, that's cool. He wasn't a disaster. Right. Okay. It doesn't mean anything. you know I don't know I hope it happens for him I'm in the camp of I thought he should have gone in the first two rounds it's hard for me to believe he's not a starter it's hard for me to believe New Orleans couldn't have used him but I'm not I'm not going to be like we'll see what he did in week one preseason like just stop yeah also it's funny because the only reason he started that game is several three guys got hurt it was just like man so what's your next one I actually just want to get your take on this I'm selling the Aaron Rodgers Steelers thing but I want to know what you think about it Oh, not only have I sold it I knocked down the house I knocked it down for the new owner I couldn't be more out Sheil made the key point Brady's the only one over 42 who even played 10 games I thought Rodgers sucked last year I don't think he wants to get hit anymore I don't love their offensive line I don't think the team, I'm very nervous about that team in general.

52:55Bill Simmons:And I think it would be shocking if he was good in the Steelers. With all the evidence we have following football, for him, for what we saw last year, to him all of a sudden being good for the Steelers and them going 12-5, like, honestly, what are the odds in that? Like, 7-1, 8-1? He's just going to be good? He's going to like getting hit again? Last year was an aberration? There are, I will say there's like, and I'm completely with you on this, but there are, I've seen stories and I've listened and I've heard a few on podcasts like Aaron Rodgers kind of feels like a different guy this year. You know, he's come in there and like all his teammates love him, all this stuff.

53:33And I'm just like, I don't know.

53:36Bill Simmons:It's over. He's 42. It's over. Even if you lose like a split second of your reaction time on stuff, combined with that, the lower half of his body had this traumatic injury that it would be one thing if it's 27, but, you know, he's got a repaired Achilles. He's 42. He's not the biggest guy in the world. Him and DK Metcalf is a very funny combo, too, like from a schematic and stylistic point of view. How about him and Tomlin? What about the first time he says something stupid? Or Arthur Smith? Yeah. I just think there's so many ways to go wrong. Alright, I'll give you my last one. Alright. I've already talked about that multiple times in the pod.

54:14Bill Simmons:to my horror I was listening to the Ringer Gambling Show the excellent East Coast bias show as they did the AFC West and all three of them got excited about this team and it feels like there's too many people on the bandwagon I'm getting nervous but the Broncos were my favorite team I actually think they're underrated I think they are a live chance for them to buy to win the AFC West I just think they're going to be really good I think they're an actual contender I really think that. And now it feels like people are coming on the bandwagon because nobody can figure out another team that's like this year is basically Lions of like, oh, this team was good last year.

54:53Bill Simmons:Now they're going to be this. And they're the most obvious candidate. Then Slater goes down for the Chargers. And you're like, well, there's another reason the Broncos are going to be better than Chargers. And now I'm worried it looks too obvious. So I'm not selling the hype. I just wish I could calm down the hype. I wish I could create like a fake news story to get people off the scent. Like, eh, Bo Nix might not be able to start the season. Mystery injury. Like, I almost want to throw people off the scent. I, yeah, I've, the contrarian in me that like the Broncos hype, that is like maybe the top one where I'm just like the contrarian in me.

55:32For whatever reason, everybody loves it. You just want to zag it. Yeah, 100%. Like, everybody loves the Broncos. And I have kind of a long running bit. I'm anti Sean Payton, but that's like fantasy wise. Like he's actually a good, he's a good real life coach. He just annoys me in fantasy because he, you know, platoons every position and it's really hard to guess like whoever he's going to like that week. But I don't know. To me, it's just, you know, we saw CJ Stroud have a huge slump in his second year as teams start to kind of figure out what your fastball is and some of the best things that you're doing.

56:01I don't think, you know, I'm not fading next by any means, but I think there's a chance like he could be a little worse than he was as a rookie. And that wouldn't be super surprising. Their defense, obviously, hard to schedule. Yeah, really hard schedule. Their defense, I mean, their defense is great, but with everything, you know, how healthy can they stay? Can they continue to do what they're doing up front? And then, you know, I think defense is harder to predict year in and year out. It's less consistent year in and year out. So, I don't know. To me, I'm like, I don't have a real argument against the Broncos, but the contrarian in me, it's just like that.

56:38That's like the bells are going off. Everybody loves the Broncos this year. And so that's just kind of my reaction to it.

56:44Bill Simmons:They check the most boxes I've seen for a leap team in a while, including week one, home, Tennessee Titans. Week two, at the Colts, who are already probably changed QBs. Week three, at the Chargers. Week four, home Bengals, Monday night. And then week five, at Eagles, which could be a 4-0 against 4-0. Like, I'm already ready for it. I like it too much. I want it to calm down. I need to like, I think if this is like a relationship in college, I want them to like be mean to me for a day. So I don't like them as much. Right. Your spidey sense is tingling right now. I think you're, you're feeling the, you want to zag.

57:23Too many checks.

57:24Bill Simmons:Too many check marks. And I was trying to think what another zag team would be. Cause we do this every year. And that's what I'm going to try to figure out. Is it going to be bad? That will be good or the vice versa? That. there's always a team. There's always a team. Like, it's going to be like the Giants. I'm not saying it's going to be the Giants, but that's what I really want to figure out is like, who is the team? Everyone thinks it's going to be shitty. And I'm telling you, they're going to make the playoffs. Last year was Washington. Even the Patriots, I think people are expecting they're going to be pretty good.

57:56Bill Simmons:It's a team like the Panthers. No, because I think there's cases for Falcons. It's like Panthers, Jags, Giants, the Titans. The Titans is a great one. The Titans is the one. Vegas, the Jets, it's those kind of teams. One of them is going to make the playoffs. That's how the league goes. Not the Browns. Not the Browns. I've crossed off the Browns and the Saints all over the place. Those are my two cross-off already teams. I think, you know what? I'm not saying the Saints are going to win the division, but the Saints have been my surprisingly competent team because just everyone, like for whatever reason, Again, it's a contrarian thing where everyone says the Saints are going to suck.

58:40Everyone thinks the Saints are. It's like a fact. The Saints suck. And that's the way that we've talked about them this offseason. And for whatever reason, that just, you know, it like ignites my contrarian-ness. And I just want, like the Saints, for whatever reason, they always kind of figure out a way to be competitive, especially in that division. The quarterback situation is obviously very concerning. But, you know, I don't know. Maybe Kellen Moore goes in there and they kind of just run this funky offense that people don't know what to do with and they eke out some wins.

59:10Bill Simmons:Are we even sure Kellen Moore is good? No. To me, like the QB coach combo, which is the easiest way to figure all this stuff out. Right. They've got to be one of the lowest. Even the Browns, because Stefanski is better than Kellen Moore. Yeah. Even they might have a higher number. I'm not saying it makes any sense. It just, that's the team that I've been contrarian on because it just feels like everyone is stating as a fact that the Saints are awful. Well, there's one thing I have noticed. The people covering the team are talking about how it's way more professional this year. Like they are, we are going from Dennis Allen and whoever the guy was that Cam Jordan annihilated on the podcast.

59:49Bill Simmons:Did you see that? Something about the defensive line coach who was the worst coach he's ever had. Oh my gosh, no, I didn't see that. But anyway, their over is five and a half, and it's already plus 125. The last thing, and then we'll go, because I already kept you a half hour longer than I thought we were going to go. I think Seattle is in the mix for I didn't realize that they were going to be good. Because you think last year, they hit their draft a year ago, as you know. The reasons people are off the scent this year are basically like they downgraded at receiver, and they changed QBs. You could argue Darnold's better than Geno Smith.

1:00:26Bill Simmons:In fact, I'll make the argument right now. It's year two McDonald's. They had another good draft. And they're in a division that I'm not sure anyone in the division is good because this Matthew Stafford who... House of cards. Matthew Stafford wasn't that good for most of the season last year and then got better as it went along and then was really good in the playoff game. But for the entirety of the season, we were wondering what was going on with him. The Niners, who knows? I don't like Arizona at all. And could Seattle just be like, oh, shit, I guess it's Seattle. Their odds are, they're plus 550 for the division.

1:01:01Bill Simmons:That's crazy. Nobody should have odds like that in that division. I mean, they almost won the division last year. Yeah. So I think logically and on paper, I would say they downgraded going from Geno Smith and DK Metcalf to Sam Darnold and Cooper Cupp. No question. However, So the scheme, the change in scheme is like the big X factor for the Seahawks this year. It could be a forced multiplier for them on offense because they're going from what was one of the past heaviest offenses in the NFL last year in terms of expected pass rate to I'm sure they're going to run the hell out of the ball this year.

1:01:35Like that's why they brought Clint Kubiak in this wide zone offense. I think in theory it fits Kenneth Walker really well. It could help their offensive line start to get some continuity in terms of like they drafted Graze Abel who's got rave reviews out of training camp. and he looked good in his first preseason game. Looks like Abraham Lucas, their right tackle, is going to be... Right now, he's looking like he will be healthy and able to start. Charles Cross can be a good left tackle. I think there's some pieces there that they're working with that could emerge on the offensive line to make it a not bottom five unit, which is kind of what they've been the last few years.

1:02:10Bill Simmons:Yeah, I had to as a minus one before the season, but I might take the minus one off. Yeah. Because the offensive line, people seem to think, Like, yeah, it might be actually fairly competent. It's like a scheme thing. Can the scheme hide some of the rewards that they had last year in terms of like, maybe this just works better where they're attacking, running the football, you know, all that stuff. And then defensively, you know, there's a P, I'm trying hard not to like buy too much into the hype because this is another one that's gotten tons of press around where I live. It's like the Seahawks could have a top five defense.

1:02:41Like a lot of people, a lot of smart people who know what they're talking about are looking at this scheme with Mike McDonald and some of the talent they've amassed on defense.

1:02:51Bill Simmons:Well, you have two big motherfuckers in the middle that maybe five teams have two guys like that. I mean, Leonard Williams was one of the most unsung elite players, I think, last year on defense. And then Byron Murphy, they drafted last year in the first round, and I think he had a good rookie season, could have a really good second season. He got hurt and he played hurt. and he was like I think so yeah and he was one of my favorite players coming in I like him I can't I think the Seattle defense and the Pats defense are very similar for me in that I actually think the ceiling of each defense could be top five yeah especially because your secondary is really good yeah I mean they have so much talent in their secondary yeah Devin Witherspoon another draft pick from a couple years ago so I don't know they have the pieces I think like you could make an argument certainly The other one I wanted to bring up was Torrey Horton.

1:03:44This is like too much of a deep cut, but their fifth round receiver is another one of those guys that's in the category of just making two or three big plays every day.

1:03:53Bill Simmons:You got to send me some of the quotes. You keep hearing everything about him, man. Maybe I'll sleuth it tonight. I want to find for myself. Look up Torrey Horton. And look, I'm obviously in the Seahawks text thread streets where it's people really into the Seahawks. But I mean, I got so many messages and texts about Torrey Horton when they drafted him, when the Seahawks drafted him. They're like, this guy is so much better than a fifth rounder. You're going to love this guy. He was my favorite player at Colorado State. You know, I got a ton of people telling me that like, you're going to love this guy.

1:04:25And then everything that we've seen since then is like, he's been really good at practice. He had a couple of big catches in this last game, in the preseason game. So I don't know. Again, this is like way too deep cut for probably the national side of things. But people are really excited about Torrey Horton here in Seahawks land.

1:04:42Bill Simmons:Pat's excitement, Seattle excitement. We're back, Danny Kelly. Thanks for hyping it up with me. Good to see you. And don't forget, Ringer Fantasy. So when's the big, we're doing our draft on August 25th? Yeah, I think it's in a couple of weeks here. Yeah, we're less than two weeks away. Yeah, August 25th. I'm going to be in LA soon. Yeah, I'll see you in LA. All right. Thanks, Danny Kelly. Thank you. This episode is brought to you by my old friend, NFL Sunday Ticket. Kickoff's coming with NFL Sunday Ticket and YouTube TV. You get every game, every Sunday, all in one place. New users can get NFL Sunday Ticket for eight payments of just$30 a month.

1:05:19Bill Simmons:New users pay$240 or eight non-cancelable payments of$30 a month. First charge at purchase. Availability varies with NFL Sunday Ticket for out-of-market games and YouTube TV for local and national games. YouTube TV required. Terms, restrictions, and embargoes apply. commercial use excluded, no refunds. This episode is brought to you by PNC Bank. In today's sports, everyone is constantly trying to outdo each other. Trick formations, infield shifts, constant rotation changes, yet it's proven time and time again that strong fundamentals are the thing that will lead you to victory. Banking, no different.

1:05:51Bill Simmons:While everyone else tries to outdo each other, PNC Bank just keeps going right down the middle with steady calculated money moves and the financial wins just keep coming. PNC Bank, brilliantly boring since 1865. Brilliantly boring since 1865 as a registered mark of the PNC Financial Services Group, Incorporated. PNC Bank, National Association, member FDIC. Boston, New York, New York Boston. All right, let's go. Also, I'd like to say thank you for having me on, and let's have some fun. Yeah, you do the intro for me. I don't even do that. I wore my Celtic shirt. We're a little wounded these days.

1:06:28Bill Simmons:I'm not the person I saw. We'll get out the car. Well, you made this movie. You put like 17 slanderous Boston things in there. Eh, maybe 15. It wasn't that many. Nine? Rick Fox took a Larry Bird shot. He played with Larry Bird. Also, like to say, quick story. You know, I've done several commercials for and one of these spots. Yeah. It's Larry Bird. Which one? McDonald's? I do it with Sam and Magic, you know, and Charles. Oh, the bank ones. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And so I was really scared. Larry Bird. I mean, if you saw any of the movies from the 80s. She's got to have it. John Savage. John Savage.

1:07:13Bill Simmons:It's a two-minute scene. The gentifier. He's wearing it. So I was really scared. I knocked on the door. I said, who is that? I said, Spike. Can I come in? Come on in, Spike. Sit down. Sit down. and that's because I mean we have a commercial I don't know this was all those so he says he says Spike look we're good that means so much to me because I never anything I love Larry Bird but the thing for me was that he was positioned in the press as being the great white hope and Larry that wasn't him he just wanted to bust yes so he didn't know all this I mean he knew but he wasn't all this this mythology was put up behind them.

1:07:55So that's what I was talking about. We had nothing to do with Larry Bird. We tried to hit that

1:08:00Bill Simmons:in the Celtics documentary we did for HBO about he's positioned as this great white hope. But meanwhile, he's way more talented than that. And he wanted no part of it at all. Yes. Look, I got number love for Larry. I mean, he just wanted to bust your ass. And that's it. It wasn't his fault. He was put in that position. Yeah. I remember like, going to Old Garden with the live bird was at the Boston Garden at 6am and took 10 ,000 shots. You know, like, and like, we come out of the womb, but dunk it. Right. No hard work, no expertise, you know. But anyway, how you doing? I want to talk basketball first and then go into movies.

1:08:43Bill Simmons:This is our year! Well, I haven't seen you. The last time we did a pod was pre-COVID at our two studios ago. Yeah, you got it set up here. Yeah, now I brought you in. But I haven't seen you since the Knicks got good again. And then we had a little passing of the torch. They beat the Celtics. Did you go to all... Weren't you promoting a movie at some point during that series, right? Nah, I just didn't go to Boston. You didn't go to Boston? Nah. You won't go to Boston? You know, me and Coach are really good friends. He came to my office. Yeah? There's a picture on Instagram. You can use, you know.

1:09:22in front of my... I'm pointing at him. He's pointing at me. We got the Knick team behind on the front of my office. But I love him as a coach. And I'd like to say this. A couple weeks ago, I was invited to Obama's birthday party, Obama's Vineyard, and Jason was there. So I just gave him a hug and said, you know, wish him a speedy week. I don't want to see nobody get hurt.

1:09:49Bill Simmons:Were you at that game? You were, right? Yeah. Did you know right away? I knew it was bad. It's pretty close to where you were sitting. Yeah, I mean, I knew it was bad. And also Halliburton and Dame, you know, they all wear the number zero. Do you know that? I know. I don't know if that's a coincidence or something. I told him. I saw Jason. I laid it down, you know, what it was. He said, are you going to wear a number zero? He said, yes. He said he's going to keep it. I'm trying to figure out why all these young guys are getting hurt because the generation... They're not wearing high tops. Well, you think that's it?

1:10:26Bill Simmons:Because I've heard the high tops theory. That's definitely one of them. I also feel like there's way more running in basketball now than there used to be with the three-point line. Well, a lot of like sprinting out, trying to hedge over, flying over this way. I just think that there's a reason why players wore chucks. Right. Con, converse. Well, they would just have knee injuries back then. And now it's like, it seems like everything's moved toward the feet and the ankles. Somebody should do a study because this seems like a wave of this type of injury. And, you know, when you get that, you're out for a year.

1:11:00Bill Simmons:Yeah. Well, the Tatum thing was interesting because he gets hurt. He's in New York. The best Achilles doctor is in New York. He's on the operating table 10 hours later. The operation was in New York? Yeah. And they were saying, like, that actually might have been good for him, that he was able to get it. Because that's what Kobe did, too. and Kobe actually came back pretty fast but then had a different injury. Kobe was a new one so let's push him to the side. But that's Tatum's work ethic idol though. I haven't seen you since Kobe died either. You were actually like legit friends with him. Well we weren't great friends but I had to be there and we did this thing called Kobe doing work.

1:11:40I remember at ESPN. And listen to this though. So we didn't want to put it out until we do a commentary and looked on the scale and said, Spike, let's do it after we kick the Knicks' ass. And that's the game we set the record for the Garden. I had the stat sheet. He signed and said, Spike, this shit was all your fault.

1:12:05Bill Simmons:Is that story true that he almost backed out at the 11th hour, Kobe doing work the day of the game, and you had to go to the house and convince him to do it? I always heard like an urban legend. I never knew what was true and wasn't true. We were ready and for some reason he says, I'm not doing it. And you had the 24 cameras or whatever it was, you're ready to go. I was freaking out. And then lay a blind or something he gave me like the thumbs up. That was close. You think he was like just testing you? I don't know. But it didn't matter what it was.

1:12:44It will be would not be what it intended if... Oh, this... What do you got? The 50th anniversary of... I know, I know. But I have a house in all this venue. Anyway, thank God that Kobe said, gave me the thumbs up, and we did it.

1:13:03Bill Simmons:You know, everyone talks about the goat stuff and basketballs against basketball players, and yet with directors and actors, we don't do it that way. It's just like you basically either make some lists... I like we don't do it like that way. I think it's better, and I'm partially probably responsible for the GOAT, the rank, like I've certainly You've done it! Well, I definitely was involved, but with actors and with directors it's more like you move into this kind of area but nobody cares about the ranking of the area it's more like you kind of know who's there and who's not I think there's a, I don't know what the word is, but I'm so tired of this LeBron this GOAT thing is going on forever and then you say this Kareem's not in there.

1:13:50I don't think it's what's the purpose? You think LeBron is or you think Michael is or you think Wilt or whoever you know Kareem. Good, but why do we have to spend time

1:14:08Bill Simmons:like discussing this? Yeah, and plus people are going to have their opinion on it. They're not going to change their opinion. I'm going to tell you this, though. This is not new. I grew up in Brooklyn. So, it was always a Willie Mays, Mickey Mantle thing. Right. So, it's not new. But it's just with the internet, it's just, it's out of control. For me. For me. Yeah, we've had good ones over the years. Manny vs. Brady was good. Mike don't give a fuck about that. He said, what are you talking about? I mean, and LeBron probably say the same thing. What's, what's, what, what is the good that comes out of that?

1:14:44Bill Simmons:I'm asking you well I think LeBron probably cares a little bit more because after after Last Dance you know Last Dance comes out it's during COVID there's no sports it's like this five everybody watched that five week MJ extravaganza everybody's in it there's this whole generation of people who didn't know how good he was a lot of people were let's not talk about Scotty Pippen you know I know but the thing is he becomes a hero at the end of that Scotty Pippen because that goes into game six when he's playing with the bad back and Jordan, you know, it is what it is. What's the guy that Phil Jackson did when he ran the play for Kukoc?

1:15:23Bill Simmons:Yeah. But that's a part of Scottie's legacy, unfortunately. That and the migraine, that's just how it goes. You know, Ewing has the finger roll and it doesn't go in. Hey, hey, hey, hey. But that becomes part of his legacy. Why are you bringing Nick into it? And don't talk about Game 7 against Houston. Well, did you go to Game 1 Pacers? Yes. this year. The Halliburton, the Neesmith hitting threes, and then Halliburton. You were at that game, right? This is the Garden, right? That game was on recently, and I just started watching it. I was like, I just forget what happened. I just couldn't believe it as it was happening.

1:16:02Bill Simmons:It's actually three times crazier than I thought it was. In person, you must have been going nuts. Let me ask you, were you at the games one and two where the Knicks were behind 20 points, both games in the Celtics? Were you there? Oh, you missed that one, huh? You missed those two, huh? I was fortunately on the West Coast. Up by 20! I know. I felt like we blew it in those games because of the style we were playing. The Indiana thing, Neisman's making fall-away threes. They're making some of the craziest shots, and they're all in a row. And it wasn't even like the Knicks did anything that bad.

1:16:37Bill Simmons:They missed like two shots. They missed a free throw. But for the most part, Andy's just making literally everything for 10 minutes. So what are we talking about? Did you feel like that was a fluke? Or did you feel like... Because you guys were really good. Here's the thing, though. I'm going to leave it at this. The starting five and the Knicks led the league in minutes. I'll leave it at that. Oh, so you were a supporter. For what? Of the change. No. Look, I got nothing but respect for my brother, Tibbs. So why'd you say the minutes thing? It's a tough business. Is that the closest you felt like the Knicks were to winning a title since 94?

1:17:20Bill Simmons:Was that team the best team last 30 years? Look, we were up 3-2 going to Houston for game six and seven. Yeah, it's 94. Yeah, okay. But this is our year. I'm not even talking about the past. This is the year. We're coming out of the East. Well, it's lined up because you got you guys in Cleveland. We got a bench too now. You got Giannis. And basically, he's the best player in the conference, but doesn't have the best team. My team's not going to be there this year. Probably Orlando's a year away. Don't see right this year off. It's a write-off, as you can tell by the two trades we made. Poor Ziggins and Holiday for nothing.

1:17:57Plus, you got that, what, you're in the third tier or something like that? We got out of that. You got out of it?

1:18:03Bill Simmons:Thank God they don't have that for movies. Second apron, third apron. Actually, that might be good for movies. Maybe we'd start making more original movies and less superhero movies. Could be, could be, could be. Although that's starting to change now. I feel like this has been a nice renaissance year for movies with original voices. There's been, you know, original IP movies that have actually, people have gone to the theater to see. You guys are back. Directors are back. From where?

1:18:34No, you feeling it though? I have to think about what you just said but there's a strange thing between studio films and streaming you know there's still kind of wonky so you know Barry's trying to figure it out

1:18:53Bill Simmons:when you say strange what does that mean you mean trying to get people to actually see a movie in a theater versus being home it's people with the price of tickets and you know what some other thing they rather just stay home and I think that the stay home thing as you stated as you talked about COVID COVID's not over as far as mentality I think and there's just a thing where I'm going to stay home I got a big ass TV on the wall I don't have to drive, I'm just going to stay home I don't have people next to me in my seat on their phone during the movie That drives me crazy. I don't have to see somebody's phone light during a big scene.

1:19:38Exactly. But even with that, there's nothing. I'm them as a kid waiting for the hours in line to see The Exorcist or Alien or Jaws. The fifth anniversary, there's nothing. I mean, when the film is hidden and the theater's packed, it's wonderful.

1:19:56Bill Simmons:It's so funny. We do that movie podcast, The Rewatchables, and there's movies where they weren't number one until the sixth week. like these slow builds that just now it's completely different. You have to hit in the first two weeks. The first weekend. Yeah. First weekend. That's it. I'm way more optimistic than I was a couple of years ago. Cause I'm with you. I thought COVID screwed everything up. I thought it changed habits. People died. Well, but beyond that, I'm just saying. What's more important than that? I'm saying from a movie standpoint. Now, if you had a relative die to COVID, you wouldn't be talking like that.

1:20:28Well, you know what I mean though. No, I don't.

1:20:30Bill Simmons:I'm saying like the, the structure of the movie business, how they were made what the prices for them were what the goal trying to get people into a theater it felt like it shifted over the last five years and now it feels like it's a little more like the 2010s let's do some things I'm a cinephile first it was silent movies when sound came yeah then when TV came you know it's gonna kill the theater so all this thing is like it's cyclical yeah that's the word my brother so I think it's I think the biggest thing is we just need, it's almost like basketball. Where basketball, there'll be some years where there's like eight great players.

1:21:10Bill Simmons:And then there's other years where there's like 16. You have little classes. Like you had your director class way back when, the up-and-comers. Then it shifts. And right now, it seems like we're in a good spot. There's a lot of good people right now. Well, you got to get in where you can fit in. What was your favorite movie you saw this year that wasn't yours? Hmm.

1:21:35sinners. My brother, Ryan, he did the damn thing. Let me tell a quick story. He called me up and he said, Spike, you happen to be in LA. I said, yeah, why? Well, we're going through the final thing of IMAX. And if you can get here in an hour, you can see it. I'm barely in LA. Yeah. So it wasn't a mistake. I was there and he took a chance calling me. So I'm there. I'm on the right Ryan's in the center and his wonderful wife Cinzia is there and me I know they're not going to want to sit next to me in a movie again because I was acting like I was my court side seat at the guard and we were killing the Celtics I was jumping up and down I was like my mom was born especially to see that musical sequence with the genres and the eras yeah I was so happy and I would tell you, it was like I was, let's leave the Celtics out there.

1:22:33I was just happy to be there and that he called me out of nowhere and then just took a chance. Maybe there's a chance Spike is in LA because this was like the final, the IMAX part, the IMAX thing of the film and that film was transformed and that film took me to another place and I love movies. Yeah. And when I see something that's great, it just puts me, it's lifts my spirit and it's finished me was that film this year.

1:23:11Bill Simmons:I felt the same way. I've seen it four times. Four times? We did a rewatchables on it that's coming Monday, but it just, I walked out of the theater and I'm not a guest. Huh? Has Ryan been a guest? No, no, no. We do like people, fans of it talking about it. Okay, cool, cool, cool. Well, you need to get them. But I saw it on a Thursday before it had really come out. I had no idea In the theater? Yeah It was in LA They were Sometimes they premiered early And We walked out So you didn't know None of you When they're cold right? No I always I did same thing with your movie I don't want to know anything The only thing I knew about your movie Was it was a remake And that was it I didn't want to know anything else Whoa whoa It's not A reinterpretation A reimagining Reimagining Reimagining Not a remake You know what I mean But that was But always doesn't Because you said that word remake But all I knew was MBJ And vampires And we were in the past and that's it.

1:23:59And it was just,

1:24:01Bill Simmons:it's just so original and so creative. And then the ending, when you just walk out of the theater, like, oh my God. Like, I don't want to spoil the ending for anybody who hasn't seen it, but to land the plane the way they did with that and the way they used the music, I thought it was such a great in-theater experience, especially the way he used the IMAX and the cameras. It's really, and my guy, MBJ. Best filming here for me so far. It's really great. and it's made a ton of money that's the thing people will come out if the movie's good so we've at least gone back to that because I think it felt like the studios were getting a little scared with well no we gotta walk gotta hold people's hand and it's gotta be like oh I recognize the superhero now it's like is the movie good or not and the word of mouth feels like it's back we saw it with weapons people are going to see weapons everyone's saying did you see weapons it's good here's the thing though even more than the past people worry about their jobs.

1:25:00So very few people in this industry are going to take a risk that might give them their walking papers. And as history is shown in cinema, the people that, who have pushed the best films over these, who knows how many years, that they believed in the talent, they believe in the story and they said fuck it you know want to get behind this film and push it out Steven Spielberg's got a fire doing jobs you know so when you have look it's a business though but if you have people in those spaces in the studios and streamers that have respect to the artist yeah and when they when the whole world is telling them, don't do this film.

1:26:01And that comes to me personally. I'm getting choked up now because my brother, Tom Pollack, people told him, do not release, do the right thing, especially in the summer because Black Folk was right in the summertime. And here's the thing, though. People forget about this. He had just done the, Tom Pollack just did the last temptation of Christ with Marty. He had death threats. So he could not be blamed not doing the right thing, knowing him and his family were targets for death. But Tom Pollack did not listen to anybody those haters and he put the right thing to the world. because nobody coming out of Cannes, Blackpool's going to riot, all this stuff, which has never happened.

1:27:00And today, it's in the canon of great films. You got to have people like that in the studios who are going to champion work they believe in. And look, no one wants to get killed. But Tom Pollack had People forget that he came out of last temptation to Christ. He had death threats, not just him to his family. And he believed in me. He believed in the film. And the rest is history, herstory.

1:27:32Bill Simmons:It's funny. That's basically the last 50 years of movies. You read all the books about like, no, about the 70s, right? You have this huge director boom. And Coppo was one of the ones who was like, I don't need the studios. I want to fund my own stuff. And had one from the heart, which almost bankrupted him. so we had this little dance right? I went to see a film one from the heart? opening day was same Valentine's Day where you see the musical cause you were still at NYU right? what year was that? 82? yeah maybe yeah the 82 I finished yeah so well so you had this we go to this new film Francis he put all the money in that film right lost it too.

1:28:20Bill Simmons:It's always been this dance with, I want to trust the director. I don't want to trust him too much. No, I want to trust him. You see it in TV too because all the greatest TV shows were done by one person. Sopranos, one guy. Succession, one guy. The Wire, two guys. The thing is not being those people around. Well, that's the thing. That's what makes people not trust the actual artist. But I feel like it's happening more movies. I think people are starting to understand, like, if I just bet on somebody like Coogler, and he's passionate about something, even if he's only made four movies, it's still a good bet.

1:28:56let's talk about this, though. Ryan took this film, the film, the script, Around Town. Yeah. But no one wanted to make it because he wanted to own the rights in 25 years. Right. To get it back. And Pam and Mike DeLuca, thank God, they said, okay. at Warner Brothers.

1:29:17Bill Simmons:Great business deal. Because they needed a hit. And they've had a string of hits since then. Yeah. And guess what? They have it for 25 years. He gets it back. Everybody wins. Then they retire. I don't think that'll be a new model going forward, but I think for them... I'm glad it happened. It's a little like NBA free agency, though. All you need is one team that really needs somebody, and they're willing to pay it, and that's it. But, I mean, for him, now he can... His next one, he can do whatever he wants. Yeah, but you should throw you do whatever you want. just based upon Black Panther. You would think.

1:29:48Bill Simmons:Did you ever have fuck you power with one of your... Did you ever feel like I can make any movie I want and get a green light or no? Never. Never. Never. I mean, I never made a film over$100 million until the last one, Inside Man, which was 18 years ago. And I didn't even know it was 18 years ago since me and Denzel and I worked together until the journalists told me that that was 18 years ago. that's the only thing only research I did because I just wanted to talk to you and not feel like I was like following some sort of that was the only thing I was like how when was the last time they worked together when was Inside Man I was like oh six first of all that's crazy you haven't made a movie with them since oh six like that's your fault come on you guys should make a movie every ten years come on look you've only made five I thought it was like twelve Coppola Scorsese and Leo made seven Yeah, but that's not the same as Scorsese and De Niro And they've been 10 You know, that's not, that's for me But you know what I mean I feel like you could have made one every 8, 9 years Look at the great director Actor, you know, you got Saint Laurent with Pacino I don't like the politics But John Ford and John Wayne I think they have the record, they made like 21 Ford and Wayne at least 20.

1:31:13Yeah, how many Native Americans got killed? It was a long time ago. Them savages. Them savages.

1:31:22Bill Simmons:Yeah, some of them are tough watches. But yeah, Scorsese and De Niro are probably, from the last 50 years, probably the ones people would think of first because they made 10, but they also made them in different decades and they're classics for different ways. Right. You could have snuck in for one equalizer or something just to keep the streak alive. just stuck in for equalizing Denz and I were not thinking about that and I've come to believe as I get old in years that things happen when they happen you know I cannot force here's the thing we saw each other in that interlude you know but we just didn't make a movie you know he has season tickets to the Lakers long and me have had it with the Knicks and so we look at the schedules and when are the Knicks going to be in LA But now, it looks like the Knicks are in L.A.

1:32:16Same trip. So I get to see the Lakers and then they have to get to see the Clippers.

1:32:22Bill Simmons:You know what's crazy about him? Who? Denzel. So you figure he's a leading man really starting late 80s, 1990 range, right? So it's been 35 years. And usually when somebody is an A-plus lister in the face of a movie poster, At some point, you kind of either have to move into the old guy roles or you move into where Cruz is or he's basically just doing Mission Impossible and franchise things. And Denzel could still play these original characters where I still feel like he can kick somebody's ass if he has to. And he can do all these other pieces. I know. Don't give it away. I don't want to give it away.

1:32:58Bill Simmons:But I just can't believe he's kept that going all these years later. It's almost like watching LeBron in year 23. I don't understand how he's still doing this. Here's the thing for me. and I say this very respectfully for me I feel Denzel is the greatest of an actor. Now the escorts he's going to say De Niro France is going to say Rando This is back to our previous discussion though about there's no answer. You just want to be mentioned It's not as vicious as LeBron Michael I think being mentioned is the win Why can't we all celebrate For me, the whole, especially more in sports, I don't think people go around saying, well, De Niro was this.

1:33:46I mean, that thing has really gone off the charts in sports. For me, yeah. And it's...

1:33:57For me, mine... Oh, there goes Dave DeBusher. But for me, it's a waste of time. For me. And I know Michael thinks that way because we've talked about it. He's like, man, I got too many things to do. I got kids. I got this. Plus, Michael knows he was the best, so he didn't talk about it. And where was he born? He's like, I don't even talk about it. Where was Michael born? I thought it was North Carolina. No. He's born in Brooklyn. Oh, there you go. Cumberland Hospital. Mike Tyson was born there and Bernard Albert King. Jesus. Cumberland Hospital is a hospital my neighbor. I grew up in Fort Greene, Brooklyn.

1:34:36Mike? Michael Jordan? Mike Tyson, Bernard Albuquerque, all born in the same hospital in the People's Republic of Brooklyn, New York. Thank you very much.

1:34:45Bill Simmons:I was upset that you weren't defending Bernard's name a little more vociferously. When Brunson had like, and by the way, I love Brunson, but he had a couple good playoff games. And then it's like, greatest Nick ever. It's like, what? Did I just say that? No, you didn't say it, but that was out there. And it was like, did you guys, you guys got to go on YouTube and watch Bernard in 84 for like two months. Two months just killing everybody. like come on Brunson was great he knows his teammate was there in Tennessee Ernie Grunfeld yeah the Bernie Ernie show both from Brooklyn here's the thing with Denzel though I think he's a one on one tell me how there's certain basketball players like this too I just nobody can be the you can play the the role where you're the coolest guy in the movie but he can also disappear into a character he can be like the dad in an ordinary people type movie but he could also be the guy in Man on Fire.

1:35:41Bill Simmons:Like he can move. Or Training Day. Or Training Day. King Kong! Like, Hank's had that crazy run, right? But Hank's, there's certain roles he just wouldn't do or you wouldn't have bought him in. Denzel, I feel like, is the most malleable of any A-plus lister we've had. He can really literally put him in anything. Even in this movie. He's never played a character quite like the guy in this movie. Yeah, I am not going to argue with you. That would be my case for him. I understand. He's a blessing. I've been with him five. Mo' Better Blues, Malcolm X. He got game. Inside Man, which was 18 years ago.

1:36:24And now this. The last time you were on my podcast,

1:36:26Bill Simmons:we told the story about when he got the first four points off Ray Allen. If he got game. Want to go over that? Well, but then I saw Denzel after. I think I did a podcast with him I think after you and he told his version of the story and he's clearly more proud of it than just about anything he probably did you know Denzel played JV at Fordham and PJ Carisma was his coach so he's you know he loves sports season ticket for the Lakers I saw him on ESPN you were there too killing Jerry Jones that was him so the script in the script

1:37:12Roy Allen's supposed to win at 11. He's supposed to kill him. Denzel's like fuck that. I'm just going to leave the basket. And so Denzel starts throwing up shit that's going in. And we had to have an acting coach named Susan Batson. So Denzel's throwing these baskets and then she's yelling at him, what are you doing? What are you doing? And then Ray starts yelling at me. He says, time out. We're not going to do this. You say cut. He's saying with the technical because he was like, was he like embarrassed?

1:37:50Bill Simmons:Yes. Well, Denzel was doing the old guy bang against you. He's looking at me. Ray's looking at me like, what the fuck's going on? I just show up like this. And then Ray said oh and here's the thing though the point is that Denzel him makes some baskets made that scene better because I wrote it it's 11 zip where it's one of the best sports it's one of my favorite favorite sports movies you also go wide on it and then also you got it feels like you're watching a game the great music election of Aaron Copland for that too and think about that that film the music film was public enemy and the great American composer Aaron Colton.

1:38:39So then, I mean, his story is amazing. He made the movie better. I wrote Ray's character in 2011 Zip. But D was like, nah, he didn't tell me he was going to do that, though. That's the thing, though. He just did it. And the shots we would make were lucky. and they were going in.

1:39:05Bill Simmons:We did that movie a couple years ago for Rewatchables and it's aged in this awesome way. And it's stuff like I didn't realize like when I saw it in the theater with 97. Some of the stuff that's in there is where basketball is going, which you saw pretty early. And I don't think I saw it yet. What was that? Just how fast things were moving for fame for high school kids. The system. Oh, whoa, whoa. All the money that was in place. My brother Rick Fox takes him down. Takes him to UNC, yeah, for the trip. Give a couple porn stars there. But you know what's funny, though? Now, you know where I sit at the garden?

1:39:46So when teens, when visiting would come in, they'd be going by me, like, Spike, man, you gave way too much. Right, seriously. Spike, you spilled the beans. We thought we had it on the lock, man. You put out there for the world to see. They said a joke, but they'd be like, yo, Spike, man, yo, come on. too much in there, too much in there.

1:40:02Bill Simmons:So you had Marbury was your access into that world, right? Because you were friendly with him? Not really. It's just Abraham Lincoln. That was the school. I mean, a lot of players... I thought Jesus was modeled a little better. Is that an old wife? That's what Stephan said, but really Coney Island, historically... Abraham Lincoln, that's the school for basketball. Okay. And of course Stephan went there, but it was not a biographical thing. It's shifted over the course of the 90s. As more money goes into basketball. College is already big. What do you call it? Which one? N-I. Oh, the N-I-L? Now it's like, now you got to make He Got Game 2 and you just do an N-I-L.

1:40:45Oh, so many people. First of all, you know I shit. You want a$100 million movie. Do that. First of all, you know I shit the garden. So if anybody wants to say something to them, and the Knicks, they come over. people at the foul line and guys over here and it's Spike.

1:41:04Bill Simmons:Oh, because they want to be in it. Yeah, and then also Skylar. What's her name? Diggs? Yeah. She's the first one that says Spike, God, do this again. Flip it. Make it a... Yeah. She said that she was the first one to say that. That's a great idea. Why wouldn't you do that? I haven't done any remakes. It's not a remake. It's a continuation. It's a reinterpretation like on Duma Kurosawa? You know, reimagining him? I use the word reinterpretation. Reinterpretation. This is a continuation. This is like Top Gun Maverick. You get Jesus, you get Ray Allen in it now, and it's his daughter. Come on. Ray Allen has said that.

1:41:46He's saying that every year.

1:41:47Bill Simmons:He's available. He's ready to be in it. I actually think he's good in that movie. When you think of the legacy, I mean, obviously, you know this, the best basketball player performance ever is Bernard King in Fast Break as Hustler. Like, ripping off lines. Like, he's the most natural actor we've ever had. You're not buying that one? I'm not comparing. I mean, I haven't seen it in a long time. Bernard's good in that movie. Bernard was in a Miami Vice with Bill Russell. Yeah? Bill Russell and Bernard were father and son in an episode. I missed that one. Bernard was a good actor. I thought Ray was good.

1:42:22Bill Simmons:It's not a long list of good... Anthony Edwards was good in the Ed Ab Sandler movie. Adam Sandler made a movie called Hustle on Netflix, and Anthony Edwards is in it. He's good. What's the one that Kevin Garnett was in? Uncut Gems. Kevin Garnett was good. Yeah, he was good. Or Boston Salt. And I thought, even though Eddie was not a good movie, which I'm sure you probably hated. I hate it. I thought Malik Seeley was good in that movie. I thought Rick Fox was good, too. We've had some good ones. Rick is an actor. Rick's an actor. You put him in this movie. Yeah, Coach Fox. Playing himself. Coach Fox.

1:43:02I don't know why he took the Larry Bird shot, though. It's not a shot. That's what a policeman would say. The guy was a Celtic fan, so why wouldn't he get at Rick Fox? You healed with Larry Bird, and now you're taking shots at him. I'm not taking a shot. I said before, ladies and gentlemen, those listening at home, I have the utmost respect for Lai, bro.

1:43:26Bill Simmons:There's a big thing before we talk about your movie. I feel like Chalamet is on your corner a little bit, and I want to make sure you guys are good because he's become a signature Knicks fan. He's kind of in your real estate. Have you hashed this out? No, no, no. My daughter and my son, they all grew up together in New York City. So I got, man, we want to condone this. We want to do a film together. Oh, so you're in. Okay. I mean, all right. He's on your corner a little bit. You're sharing it. It's a big corner now. There's no competition at all. He's wearing Chrome Hearts, Nick's wardrobe. Like, he's really stepped it up.

1:44:10Look, there's no robbery there. This is like LeBron Jordan. He's a great actor. I'm just trying to start shit. He's a great actor and one day we're going to work together. I'm just trying to start dissensioning Nick's Island. There's no shit to be started.

1:44:24Bill Simmons:I don't know. I heard he was telling people, it's my team now. No, he was. Spike's Day was Patrick Ewing. Why they lying on it? Why they lying on it? Now, here's the thing. People try to, I know you do, but kidding. But people trying to start stuff. Me and him are good. It's all good. But do people actually try to start stuff? Interesting. Yeah, the other thing, he's a heir apparent, you know. I'm going to hand him the baton. But it's not, we just love the Knicks. Also, where are you going? You have plenty of good Knicks years ahead of you. Well, God willing. Look, he's a good guy. He's a real fan, though.

1:44:59He's a real fan. He's a great actor. And we've talked about doing a film together. Once this schedule clears up the next four or five years. Yeah, I was going to say, he's kind of in demand.

1:45:10Bill Simmons:Well, maybe it could be a Knicks. Knicks-related. Nah, it's going to have nothing to do with sports. He's a W fan sports radio host? you know what I'm trying to think of something you had to think you had to think long and harder yeah let me get back to the workshop on that yeah so it's you two who else was going on the road for those games you guys were the two big ones right seemed like there was a little celebrity posse traveling around yes that guy Al Palagonia you know he says next to me you know he has Apollo Jets so we're all on his plane and a lot of the players too you must be so excited though that they're good again.

1:45:50Bill Simmons:I mean, you talk about sticking through the lean years. It's like, it's two fucking decades. Look, we've not won a world championship since the 72-73 season. I know. How many years is that? I was three. How many years is that, my brother? How many years is that? 50, 52. I was three years old. It's not 53? Well, it's going to be 53 this year. Yeah. This is the glory of you. I don't want anybody to get hurt. But with Tatum, and Halliburton, I'm not scared of Cleveland. They went out the first round. Right. You should probably be scared of OKC. I would be scared of them. Look, well, yeah, that means we're in the finals.

1:46:30Bill Simmons:Yeah, that means you're in the finals. Let's get out. We're in the Eastern Division first. That's why I said Boston and Indiana. Indiana quit us out the last two years in the playoffs. Your guy, if you look at the book there, Goldman's staring at you. He missed all of it. Great writer. great writer had his seats right behind the baseline way before me he went to all of them in the last 15 years like there was no good memories but now and the Brunson thing I don't know how sustainable it is with small guards to be like to just do this for 7-8 years because the pounding he takes like Isaiah was retired when he was like 32 Isaiah Thomas the Celtics version you know he was he was last in 2017 he got hurt.

1:47:20Bill Simmons:He takes a lot of hits. That would be my one fear with him. I don't think this is going to happen with Mr. Brooks. What do you mean? You just think he's just built different. And he's a crazy worker. He's built like that. He's built for it. And so he's going to be the one to lead us to the glory land. You get along with his dad? Rick? His dad's running the team apparently. One of the team? No, he's not even a lead. assistant coach now. That was a rumor that was going around. No, it's true. No, I know it's Leanna World by West. No, I'm saying Mike Brown is hiring his own assistant coaches. Is Rick Brunson, I thought he was on the bench.

1:48:00Bill Simmons:He's not? He's going left. Everybody else is gone. And you like Mike Brown? Yeah, I think that, look, I love Tim's. You seem very confident. Last time I saw you, you were not confident at all. How many years ago was that? That was like 2019, 19-18 range. We're in 2025 now. I think you just traded Porzingis. You ever heard that soap opera, as the world turns? Yeah. I think you just traded Porzingis and you were down in the dumps. Or you're about to trade Porzingis. What happened? The Knicks. That was the last time I saw you. Well, that's... Shoot, you guys got rid of them. Well, we had to. They changed the rules on us.

1:48:41oh that rule is just for the boss and sell sticks come on

1:48:44Bill Simmons:I'm sorry we built an awesome team of assets now you have to take assets away from it it's going to happen in the Knicks yeah yeah yeah I don't mind after the Knicks when we get a ring yeah well mate so he got game two as a gender flip I think is great this movie you did which I saw last night which was exhilarating you saw last night? I did you had a screener? I did No, I went to one of those screening theaters. I would have liked a bigger theater, but it did the job. And I didn't read anything. I didn't know where it was going. I just had a great time. Yeah, yeah. I had a great time. You know what?

1:49:23Bill Simmons:Denzel Washington, he's been in my life now. I mean, you have to go back to Sin elsewhere because I saw him on that show. But as a reliable, I'm going to go see Denzel in a movie theater. This is now 35 years. It's atypical. and then you two together he's consistent too yeah you two together like of course I'm going to enjoy it Dean Lee so you're doing the reinterpretation yes of the Kurosawa film which is made from American novel written by Ed McBain so United States Japan and also that was Japan post-war 1963 1963 and that was shoes yeah and I mean Dennis Deltabee owner of a shoe company I think you had to bring him back to the culture.

1:50:12And he's the founder and head of a record label, Stacking Hits. Yeah. And he's come to this point where that music is hard to stay on top for decades. And the thing for me that really drew me to this part, behind work with Denzel again is that what makes the novel and also Kurosawa's film highest lowest is that when you're an audience watching this film you put yourself in the shoes of Denzel Washington with this morality what will you do I love what will you do movies this is one of them yeah you're sitting

1:51:03Bill Simmons:in your seat going fuck I know what the right choice is would I do it and that's and then when you have an actor esteemed actor on the level of Denzel Washington I'm sure everybody who sees this film in the theater or at home will feel the same way asking asking themselves what will they do if they were in a situation Denzel's character David King is in so you've known him for so long because I do this now because I'm younger than you but I'm still in the mid-50s but you started I was 69 so you go back in the years past an amazing 69 Mets well Russell's last title I like to think of 69 in the moon but managed by Gil Hodges Ed Cranepool at first Ken Boswell at second Bud Harrelson is short Did you like that team?

1:52:01I love that team. Cleon Jones in left, Tommy Agee in center, Ron Shrobota in right. Tom Seabit, Jerry Kuzman, Gary Gentry, Nolan. There's a famous card, baseball card. Gary Gentry and Nolan Ryan share the same card. Rookie card. Yeah, rookie card. And also, sometime first baseman, Don Clendenin. and Don Clandina went to my college, Warhol's College. Don with two N's. What?

1:52:33Bill Simmons:Don with two N's. Yeah. The reason I brought up 69 was I have friends that I've had for, since 1988, things we did together, they just blend in with each other. You've known Denzel since the 80s. You made five movies. The first one was Boat Betta Blues. Yeah, yeah. I knew before that though. So when you think of like this relationship you have with them, does the shit blend in together? Do you remember specific things? Or what is it at this point? Here's the thing, though. Me and Denzel are friends. We trust each other, but we might see each other. When the lake, when Nick's in L.A., I'm sitting next to him.

1:53:11What's the new place called? Arena. Into it, though. No, that's the Clippers. Yeah. Anyway, and then he might. He's in New York. He lives in New York, too. You know, we come to the net game. So it's not like we're best friends. we talk all the time but we're doing a film

1:53:32Bill Simmons:is rock south. So when you've done a film when you've done four other movies with somebody and then you're doing the fifth of them is there like a shorthand or like is it new every time? We did not have to have a deep conversation about the other four we've done and what we were No. We work it's like we we work together Yeah. Inside Man was yesterday. Right. That's that what we have. And our wives are close and our children. Denzel's son was a leading Black Klansman, John David, right? Washington. So it's, you have to be up in somebody's face every single minute, you know? Because if the bond is there, and it's on a solid grounds, on trust and love, that's all you need.

1:54:16Right. You have to see him every day.

1:54:19Bill Simmons:When I did a pod with him, I was all excited to go backwards and talk about different movies he made. And he's the opposite. He just is like, I made the movie, it happened, I don't think about it anymore. That's what Denzel. Yeah. I'm going to say this. Denzel doesn't even look at his films. He didn't want to talk about it. He wanted to talk about the Knicks and the Lakers. Who's this? Denzel. Yeah. That's what I mean. He moves on. He moves on. What's next? What about Man on Fire? He's like, yeah, tell me, Scott. He just doesn't care. Well, he cares, but I think it's just this process. Right. He's just on to the next one.

1:54:50He's in the moment. He's in the future. And he's not in the past. He's gone. And you can't bring it back. Tom Brady. What's your favorite Super Bowl?

1:54:59Bill Simmons:The next one. That stands out. What's your favorite movie? The next one. Now you bring on Tom Brady. I'm sorry. Who's this? What's that? You know what that is. Are you talking to me? Oh, come on. What's this? Manningham. So that one bothered me more. Why? Because he was undefeated that year? Because they outplayed us in 07. The Giants were better that game They kicked our ass that game The 2011 Giants team stunk Stunk? We gave them that game I'm going to get in the car right now How do we make the Super Bowl stink? Well the Lambo game That was a good one But we were better than them in 11 Why'd you win it?

1:55:46Bill Simmons:We stunk We choked away the game Eli made one throw You're undefeated So you choose the Super Bowl to stink? No, that was 07. You guys beat us in 07. Like that front four dominated the game. They were better. I'm fine with 07. Yeah, 07 we lost. We couldn't run the ball and the front four killed us. So Tom Brady was courtside in that game. Yeah. And they gave him a ball signed. He has to throw up in the stands during a timeout. Yeah. So Tom says, come here Spike. When this thing happens, I'm going to throw the ball to you first. and he threw it back to me. He throws me a bullet like I'm Gronk. Right.

1:56:32I'm 5 '6". The ball flies over my head. And lucky it hit me. Right. In the head. Right. So the ball goal here, I run back and get it to him and he threw it over me. But that was funny. Do you feel like you've been around? I thought I'd like to say this. Yeah. I got the utmost respect for Brady. Great guy. Thank you. Great guy. Great guy.

1:57:00Bill Simmons:This episode is brought to you by ServiceNow. Look, I already have my dream job. I run the ringer. Argue with Chris Ryan, a.k.a. CR. But even dream jobs have not so dreamy parts. You know, the work that slows you down never seems to go away. That's where ServiceNow's AI specialists come in. They're like digital teammates who actually do the job start to finish. No handoffs. no homework. That means more time for the work that actually matters, which for me is talking about whether the 86 Celtics can beat the 96 Bulls, which they could. To learn how to put AI to work for people, visit servicenow.com.

1:57:34Bill Simmons:This episode is brought to you by Workday. Guessing is for game shows, not your business, especially when your margin for error is zero. Workday is the enterprise AI platform for HR, finance, and IT with a deep understanding of your organization's context and guardrails. so every AI action is permission aware, giving you accuracy 24-7 and the ability to not just get work done, but get it done right. It's a new work day. You've been around a lot of cool actors, people with charisma, and a lot of cool athletes with charisma. Is there some sort of common DNA trait that you notice? Confidence. Right.

1:58:15Not every athlete's not a great actor, but I'm talking about the greats and the ones that really thrive in front of the camera. Conference also, they take direction to. So the athletes and the great ones, they got to listen to the coach. The coach may call and fuck the play and they say, fuck that, I'm not doing that. But in general, that they listen, listen. They just start listening to their coaches when they're in the major. That shit starts early. Pop Warner, whatever it is. And the great ones had the blessing of having a coach that could put them on a straight path, lay down stuff you got to do to get there.

1:59:04Because you always hear these guys talk about not necessarily their pro coach, but especially a high school coach, high school coach who...

1:59:17made the path smooth with the world you wanted, but those high school coaches laid down the foundation. Do you agree with that?

1:59:25Bill Simmons:I think coaches, especially at the elementary high school level, are like seven times more important than people give it credit for. But now it's getting out of hand. Because they can make you either not like sports or they can make you love it. But now it's out of control now. With this travel squad and all, it's crazy. We're at a great reckoning with basketball right now. What's that? Tell me. the specialization, the AAU stuff, the flying everywhere, the playing, you know, eight games and two weekends. And it's all for the, there's pressure on these parents that if you don't do it, your kid's going to fall behind and they lost in the sauce.

2:00:00Bill Simmons:They fucked up everything. And, uh, well, it doesn't, doesn't money usually do that. Well, that that's for damn sure. But the, the specialization you talk to some of these, some of the best athletes I've ever had, like even LeBron played football in high school. Like he was playing multiple sports, but something has shifted. Multiple sports helps. Whatever sport. Really? And it also helps if you're an awesome athlete that could play multiple sports. The confidence thing though, was there another actor other than like Denzel, obviously, but were there other people you remember where you're like, man, that guy really, or that lady really, really knows what they're doing.

2:00:37Bill Simmons:Cause you've had 40 years of movies now. John Turturro. John Turturro. Evan Norton. Oh, you got... That's my favorite Spike Lee movie. 25th Hour? Yeah. Philip Seymour Hoffman. I mean, that movie's incredible. We talked about it last time, but it's basically the right after 9-11 movie that people didn't realize was the right after 9-11 movie, but it is. Yeah, nobody went to see that movie when it came out. I'm a New Yorker, and the thing about that, I wasn't even in New York for 9-11. Where were you? I was in LA. I was trying to get Arnold Schwarzenegger in a film I was doing. What? To do a film called Save Us Joe Lewis.

2:01:26I wrote with the great Bud Schilberg and he was going to play Max Schmelen. Really? So I was on a left and we had a meeting that morning and we weren't even talking. We were just looking at the TV screen.

2:01:44Bill Simmons:so you sprinkled you sprinkled some serious New York in this new movie I don't want to spoil it for the people that haven't listen but there's an action sequence I'm a New Yorker you got Yankee Stadium you have a you have a parade you got all kinds you got all kinds of stuff happening and I'd like to say if I can right now we're all saddened by the loss there's a great great great Eddie Palmieri who passed I mean his scene where he performs the anthem, not anthem, but the great song Puerto Rico, that holds that scene together. And he just died last week. Damn. You know that? Yeah, he died. So I was thinking I was, your first movie was 86.

2:02:33Bill Simmons:She's got to have it. It's now 2000. This is your 40th year of making movies. Yeah? Yeah. 48 years? 40. Oh, 40. 4-0. This is your 40th Spike Lee movie year. That's 40 for 40 acres on a mule. Would you have guessed that in 86? I will make 40 years of movies. No. I mean, I barely. Making shit practically killed me. So everything after that, my brother's been a blessing. Because I say this all the time. I hope that people don't get mad and be saying this if they heard it more than once. on this God's earth if you can make a living doing what you love you won the joyous people on this God's earth who are great haven't worked at a job they hate it but they're going to put they're not going to let their kids start they're going to put clothes on kids back and food and a roof over your head but

2:03:29That's not their dream. Right. You know, but when you get to do what your dream is, you've won. You've won. I don't think you could say that enough.

2:03:42Bill Simmons:Because it's true. It's true. I mean, you talk to a lot of college kids and stuff, but that must be one of your big messages, right? Well, my brother, I know I've said the term many times, but I mean it. It's truthful. the thing that brings me joy, besides making films, I'm a cinephile, and I'm a tenure professor of film in NYU Grada Film School. Ernest Dix, my great-team, great-team, those early years, and Ang Lee, we're classmates. Ang Lee? Yes, and Jim, the same class, and Jim Jarmusch was two years ahead of us. So Jim Jarmusch had white hair even back then. So when Jim Jarmusch and his Strange in Paradise hit, we were like, that was, we were so happy because look Olive Stone was before us at NYU Marty was before us at NYU so we loved them but we didn't they weren't in our class they weren't in the building so when Jarmusch I always give my love to Jim Jarmusch because he made it possible

2:04:47that independence was the way to go everything Jim did with Strain of Paradise I did what she's gonna have I followed the festival thing like that. So I'm a teacher. I've been teaching 30 years. Every Thursday. But when I'm shooting a film, I take the semester off. But I love teaching class. I love it. I'm not going to name people several, more than several people working today. I was their professor. Not that I was only a professor. Yeah. But I helped them. And it's gratifying to see young people win. You know, and that even for a class, I have class from, I have lunch from one to two, from two to four, from two to five or six, depending upon the film we're showing.

2:05:44A lot of times we have guests. And from seven to twelve, I have advisement where 30 minute slots, Students come in. I look at their films. I read their scripts, stuff like that. We had one. So we watched. What was the film? Close Encounters. So lights go up. Oh, I just watched that movie. Lights come up. And then. Steven Spielberg walks down behind him. Come on. They said because he was gracious enough to come to my class. Oh, my God. People went motherfucking crazy. Just saw the great, you know, close, close accounts. The lights come up and he's there. So anytime we have guests, we surprise them.

2:06:30Same thing happened with Edward Norton with your film. 25th Hour. So when I can, I have guests because. I just don't want to hear one voice. Yeah, Spike said, my, my, my, my, my, my, my. You bring in the person that wrote the script, the person that's writing it, you know, the wrote it, the star of it, the producer of it. It just makes it, you know.

2:06:51Bill Simmons:I mean Spielberg walking in they're probably just so stunned it's not even a reaction no they started cheering they started cheering and clapping and they were happy and Steven he told me he really liked that that he had a chance to come speak to young filmmakers how are you feeling about the state of black filmmakers these days especially the younger ones well I mean you can't look everybody's excited about what Ryan's done but he's not the only one. And so it's still a struggle. And so you got to keep on keeping on, you know, that's just the nature of the business, you know? So the one thing that's changed, I think the, the most severely in a good way, what's that?

2:07:37Bill Simmons:Well, think about when you did Malcolm X, it was initially going to go to a white director, Norman Jewison, who's one of the, you know, one of the best directors. He's done several films with hurricane with Benzo. Yeah. But, and also, but in that case, the way Hollywood thought about that stuff, they never even, never even occurred to people like, yeah, maybe, maybe we should have a black director for this. But now it feels like that shifted. But here's the thing, though. Like with all types of people. If I may add this, here's the thing, though, and not that many people know about this. That film was Norman George's film.

2:08:10Yeah, he developed it, right? With, with, with, it was marvelous last time. Anyway, he, I made it known that, you know, I had a certain type of feeling about that. And so, Marvin worked. He arranged a meeting between Norman Jewison, the late great Norman Jewison and I, and I just explained to Norman why I thought I should be directing the film. And Norman, we had a talk back and forth and you know, excuse me, he bowed out gracefully. He didn't have to do that. The film was his. The film was Norman's. He chose Denzel. Denzel's part of that film but even before me also Denzel had done an off-roadway play called When Chickens Come Home the Roost but I gotta give a shout out to Norman Drewson because he if he could have said Spike you know F you I'm directing it but he didn't do that yeah and in in the early 90s

2:09:08Bill Simmons:it probably wouldn't have been a big deal in fact you probably would have been like who's Spike Lee why does he think he should direct this it's definitely shifted I had done film before that wasn't no I know but you'd only I'm complimenting The late great Norman Jewison. What's the biggest movie that you thought you were going to do that you're the most excited to do and then you didn't do? Was there one that was like your big kahuna? It's two. It was a Jackie Robinson movie, which I was going to do with Ted Turner. But my approach was, I did not want to do a film just by 1947. I wanted to do a biopic.

2:09:47and they chose not to but you know Chadwick did a great job and the other script which I mentioned is called Save Us Joe Lewis which I wrote with the great great Bud Shilberg. Bud Shilberg was inducted. He's in the Boxing Hall of Fame.

2:10:08Bud wrote Oscar on the waterfront and through Kazan I got to meet Bud and we came very close. We wrote the script together about the relationship between Joe Louis and Max Schmel and all the stuff was happening. It's actually a fascinating story that they became friends after and all of it. And Schmel was not a Nazi. Yeah. But it didn't happen. The first fight in Yankee Stadium, Joe then trained got knocked out of the second fight. He trained, knocked Schmel out. But the thing about this He said, the second fight, for the second fight, FDR summoned Joe Louis to the White House. And he said, come here, Joe.

2:10:54FDR was in a wheelchair. And he said, these are the muscles that were going to beat the Nazis with. People thought that the winner of the Shemell and Louis fight, the second fight, 938, would determine the winner of World War II. Jesus. and it went like Joe's here and post-war Germany, Coca-Cola America, all America wanted to get business in Germany, the war's over and Coca-Cola needs a president so say like Max Mellon would be president of Coca-Cola in Germany Joe gets involved in drugs and stuff and he's a greeter at Caesar's Palace some place, you know, some hotel in Las Vegas and so it shifted Joe and I'm broke and Schmell was the president of Coca-Cola Jesus it's an epic film and the riot yeah Joe became like a casino greeter right he just was yeah and you know he got into drugs you know cocaine stuff like that but the fact that me and Bud came really tight yeah and this is a guy that wrote you know What Makes Sammy Run and Facing the crowd the film after Waterfront and there were several times where you call me up Spike did you get the money yet?

2:12:27Yeah, he was in a very particular voice and I made a promise that the great Bud Shilbrug that on his deathbed literally I'll get this film made. It never happened. Not yet! I'm not gonna lie I'm not gonna lie we're getting the Bud But we're getting this film made.

2:12:45Bill Simmons:Could there be a Michael Jordan movie? Because I feel like the documentaries are so good now. I wouldn't do it. I wouldn't do it. I don't think Mike would want to do it either. I'm like, I can't speak to him, but right now, in my opinion, Mike just wants me left the fuck alone. Right. Just leave me alone. I got my boat. I got this. I got my car thing going, you know, just Let me live my life. That's what I think I get for Michael. Because I think The Last Dance is almost like the movie. Like if you're going to do a Michael Jordan movie, just watch The Last Dance. And I don't know if you can make a movie that's...

2:13:23Bill Simmons:You know, I thought Ali, I know you were interested in doing the Ali movie at some point. It's got some, with Will Smith, it's got some interesting stretches. But ultimately, like, Ali was such a one-on-one, it's hard to even play. How do you play him? There's nobody like him. We've never had a human being like him before. sense, you know, but look, everybody makes their choices. And so, again, I know I'm repeating myself, but I made a promise that the great Bud Schilberg that I'm going to get this film. For me, On the Waterfront is my favorite movie of all time. Of all time. Brando? I mean, look, what actor has done what Brando did in On the Waterfront?

2:14:08I could have been a contender. It's a funny scene. where in your favorite one of your favorite films of mine yeah 20th Hour where Barry Pepper accidentally broke Edward Norton's nose for real yeah for real and so the ambulance is there the camera's here and the ambulance turned turned the alarm off the whatever it is the sign off so the camera's in front of the ambulance I said Edward Doerrn, look, give me one more take. Not one, just give me one take. Remember how Brando walked after he got beat up? Yeah. He was walking up the steps from the thing. That's why they want you to walk to the museum.

2:14:58I mean, to pass the camera. Yeah. And as soon as you pass the camera, I'll call a cut, get your nose fixed. Jesus. Remember when Brando, he got beat up in the shed?

2:15:11Bill Simmons:Brando had a weird hold over all the actors from like 1970, probably through Ed Norton, right? But now it's one of the things I always think about with movies and sports. Like, enough time passes and then if you're under Do you think like Chalamet has Brando in his? Brando played a boxer. Right. I watched a boxer in that film. Yeah.

2:15:36I had a Delroy

2:15:37Bill Simmons:Lindo thing I wanted to bring up before we go. Yeah, yeah, yeah. because he's really good in Sinners but he was also really good in your movie I feel like he's having Five Bloods also I think he's having a renaissance also he played my father in Crooklyn right Alfie Woodard played my mother that film is semi-biographical about the least grown-ups in Brooklyn I was trying to think of the sports equivalent of somebody having like the run he's having right now in movies I'm happy for him the age is that it's great I'm happy for him yeah because you've he should have won an Oscar for a for a porn actor for a The Five Bloods.

2:16:10That one scene in the film where he's speaking to the camera, going through the jungle, stuff like that. He was awesome in that movie. So what's your next movie? Do you know yet? Don't know yet. And also, to be honest, I know, but I don't talk about stuff before it happens. I just, for me, personally, I think that's a jinx. Oh, I see what you mean. So there might be a next movie.

2:16:33Bill Simmons:Oh, I'm not done yet. Are you at the point now where you're like, mid-April, May, June. Oh, yeah. Probably not filming. I pick dates. Yeah, yeah. Like, we got to be going by this date. We're done by like March 29th. I have business. Well, here's the thing, though, because I got to, I'm still teaching. Yeah. So it let me off. You know, you have the fall semester and the rain semester. So they got to know, well, I'm not going to be teaching. So 40 years of Spike movies. what was the one that came out in a way that you look back now and you think that's the closest to what I wanted the movie to be.

2:17:15Bill Simmons:Now looking back, the most things went right. I feel the best about this. I did my job the best I possibly could have. I would say I've done the best I job. I would say I've done the best I could at that time. So you don't think of it that way. There's not one looking back years later where you're like, man, a lot of things went right for that one. Well, you need 20 things to go right. You're absolutely right. To make a movie is one of the hard things known to humankind. I say mankind, I say humankind. And there's so many things that are out of your control. So you have one actor that you cast wrong.

2:17:56Bill Simmons:One scene that something got screwed up and the take wasn't what you wanted. That's why I said it's the hardest thing known to humankind. I think as far as you're in the art form. So I'm not saying as hard as digging a ditch in a coal mine in West Virginia. I'm not saying that. Well, the hardest thing now is going to be to win four straight NBA titles in a row with the second apron. That's the single hardest thing right now. We'll never see it again. Well, as a person, as a Knick fan, and we haven't launched the 17th century season, we don't have that luxury of having, how many rings you got, 17?

2:18:32Bill Simmons:We have 17. Unlike the Lakers who lie, they count the five Minneapolis ones. It's bullshit. Come on now. Come on. Can't count those. That was a great rivalry. It really was. We'll see what happens now with the Lakers because they stumbled into one of the five best guys in the league. That was not a stumble. Well, what's your conspiracy theory? I know a stumble or a stumble, but... What are you trying to tell us, Spike? I... Who was that? Was that Hogan's Hero? I know nothing. Did you like Hogan's Hero growing up? It was a little, it was five years before I was Brady Bunch, Partridge Family was my era.

2:19:18Bill Simmons:That was, those were the You know what's funny though? In Crooklyn, there's a scene where we used to have four siblings. So we had to vote. And the Partridge Family, Brady Bunch, were back to back. And they came on the same time as the Knicks. Oh, really? On WT Channel 9. So it's got outvoted. That scene is in the movie.

2:19:48Bill Simmons:I'm trying to think like, so what time would that have been? What? What time would that have been? So the Knicks came on at 7? 7.30. And Partridge and Brady Bunch were on at 7 o 'clock at night? Yeah, 7.30. 8 o 'clock, 8 o 'clock. We really didn't have a lot of TV options back then. in New York, channel two, four, five, seven, nine, 11. That was it. Yeah. That was it. We had the same. We had six in Boston. And that was all we had. All right, Spike. Look, I want to thank you. And also you do a great, great job, man. I mean, you know, sports, even though you're from Boston, you know, you don't try.

2:20:27What do Yoda say about the word try? I try. He didn't say that. Yoda did not say that. You know, my brother, what did Yoda say? Yoda? Yoda from Star Wars. What did he say? There's no try, do. Anytime one of my students have a stack, a zero, a stack, piles. Picture Yoda and the quote. Anytime one of my students in class says the word try, I slap my fingers, my T.A., plops. That piece of tape is fucking. Boom That's it That word try gotta go And thank you Mr.

2:21:10Bill Simmons:Lucas I also want to point out You did this entire podcast with me With the 1986 Celtics finger Behind your head Oh You got me I got you Any sport Boston and New York Is great Spike I hope I see you in the playoffs With a healthy Jason Tatum You think he's coming back I don't know I don't as you said this year's a write off for us if he comes back I just hope he'll come back too soon and it hurts again that's the thing we've all written off this year but I think these guys are really competitive and if you tell them May they're going to want to come back in April let me ask you a question final thing if I got to go with my next thing what are you thinking about the Knicks this year go New York coming out the east I think if it's a bet your life situation They're the safest bet I'm not sure I would do the bet though I still Do you think The Cavaliers I still feel like Milwaukee's gonna be heard from I know everybody thinks that's crazy Who's on that team is to be honest I just Having the Dave's not even there anymore Having the best guy in the conference I still value So I have to mention them And then I really wanna see Orlando What those guys look together there would be the other one.

2:22:31Bill Simmons:But you have the best chance. All right. Coming out of the East, right? I don't trust the Cleveland thing at all, but you could argue that they just had a dumb playoff series. Garland was hurt. Indiana made a couple crazy shots, and all of a sudden they got bounced. But that team won 64 games. So maybe they'll have the eye of the tiger now. Maybe that was like their clubber line moment. Let me ask a question. When New York wins the mid-champ, it's not a jinx. I'm just saying. We win next year. I want to be on the show I'm flying the next day Spike you're always invited on the show I want to come on a not all the time I'm talking about we haven't won since the 72 season and I want to see I want to be in this scene looking at you you're always invited I want to be here the day after we win so help me God that sounds great you bring Shalabay What?

2:23:28Bill Simmons:We can bring Shalom and we'll figure out your W fan movie. Good. All right, man. Good to see you. Thank you. Oh, we left us on slow-ups. Oh, we got to keep going? Last thing. Yeah. You're watching the film. Yeah. And how many times has Boston mentioned this film? I'm going to ask you, were you laughing when one of those things happened in the film? First of all, I know going into it, there's going to be shipshash fired at Boston and the movie's set in New York. So I'm just waiting. So you knew it. I'm waiting. So I see Rick Fox. Can I just say this? You knew those shotguns were coming, right? I knew it was coming.

2:24:05Bill Simmons:So I had my bulletproof vest on. Double barrel. Well, I knew it was coming. But then I saw Rick Fox and I was like, friendly face. Played with the Celtics for seven years. Played with Larry Bird. He won't be part of this Boston anti-propaganda. Nope. Boom. You had him. Then you had Turturro chanting this Boston sucks on the subway with 50 people. you did a third thing too there was three different anti-Boston things in there, I noticed all of them well look, all I can say is listen, you stay true to yourself, that's what makes you you all I can say is, I love Mother's Venue thank you thank you alright, thanks so much to Spike Lee thanks to Danny Kelly, thanks to Gahal and Eduardo and Saruti as well good to have Saruti back don't forget, rewatchables Rollerball last Monday and then Sinners coming up next Monday.

2:24:58Bill Simmons:So you have the whole weekend to watch. It's free on HBO Max. If you get HBO Max, just knock it out. A classic, an immediate classic. Anyway, enjoy the weekend and I will see you next week.

2:25:25Bill Simmons:for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 plus in present in DC. Gambling problem, call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com. Call 1-887-897777 or visit ccpg.org slash chat in Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here, visit gamblinghelpline ma.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24-7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-887-8-HOPE. NY or text HOPENY in New York. This episode is brought to you by Whole Foods, who has your back to school eats sorted. Wow, we're going back to school already. They've got your fast and easy breakfast covered with frozen waffles and pancakes.

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