OKC Gets Wobbled, Cleveland’s Done, and Knicks Nirvana Is Here (Maybe) With Zach Lowe and Sean Fennessey

23:17There was just not going to be any denying that he's going to the basket. Even if it's not all the way there, I'm just going to take one little dribble and reach, and it's going to be a hook shot, or he tried to throw the ball off the backboard to himself two times. He was just not going to settle. Look, his first three shots were still jumpers. He took a fair amount of jumpers in the game, but there was just a different mentality and aggression level to his game, and I think that's just feeling out an elite defense who threw a monkey wrench into your plans halfway through, you know, the series or whatever.

23:50Bill Simmons:I agree with that. I think there's one other piece. It seemed like they were really trying to attack and get to the basket and get in the paint and get to the rim. I don't know. I haven't seen the, we'd tape right after these games end, but I would guess the stats for them and the paint were a little bit different in this game. And it felt like they were like, just let's attack, throw the ball near the rim for Wemby. Let's just like go downhill a little bit more. because that game three was just weird to watch them. It always felt like they were either going backwards or sideways and never like going toward the rim.

24:23Bill Simmons:The Chet piece, though, he made all NBA today. Yeah, what's our collective level of remorse for Jill and Duren over Scotty Barnes at this point after the playoffs? For me, zero. I'm not taking any shit for that. I'm voting centers every year for each team and until as long as I have a vote, I'm not changing because we decided to make this like Little League where everybody gets their participation trophy to be in an All-NBA team. I'm not throwing away 75 years of history because they stupidly decided to change the rules. I want a center or somebody who can resemble a center. I want each of my teams to kind of look like a basketball team.

25:02Okay, I don't want to detour down Jalen Duren Boulevard.

25:04Bill Simmons:No, I'm just saying, but it's a regular season award. I have no regrets. Now, let's talk about Chet. I thought he was a little better than this. And maybe he's in a funk, but I really was more of a believer than what I'm seeing. And I don't mean to do the, you know, the morning TV show. Shit, Holmgren's got to step up. Like, I'm not doing that. I just honestly thought he would have more of an impact than I'm, from watching him this season, I really thought he had rounded into, you know, dead eye three-point shooter. Just really, really severely impactful defender. just elevates your team in all these different ways.

25:45Bill Simmons:And it feels like Wemby's in his head. Like, I don't even like his body language. The only other time I remember his body language like this was in the Indiana series. I felt like you could feel him sliding a little bit a couple of times in that series where the pressure, you can just kind of see it. He was carrying it. But I thought he shed that. And now it feels like Wemby's in his head. Now, in his defense, Wemby's a seven foot seven alien who came out of a UFO. So I get it. I'm just saying, I honestly just thought he would play better than this. I think we're going to do some sort of pressure list.

26:18Bill Simmons:Yeah, we'll do that after the break. Yeah. But, I mean, not to spoil one of my potential picks, depending on draft order, Chet Holmgren has 45 points in four games in this series. He took one three tonight, despite the fact that the Spurs are playing a good chunk of each of these games in like a hybrid zone defense where someone is going to be open from three. Yeah, the guy closing out to you in the corner is going to be the alien. And I get it. And we're going to hear a lot of like, well, this just isn't a Chet series. This just isn't a Chet series. The matchup's tough for him. That's not acceptable.

26:50Bill Simmons:This is the team they have to beat for the next 10 years. This is exactly what I was going to say. At some point, you reach a stature where every series has to be your series. And Chet is at that. Defensively, he's infallible. The guy's amazing. He's going to bring that every game. he just has like there was just what there was one play tonight where they're guarding him with wings the whole game right that's just what they're doing for the most part and he just sort of faced up and burrowed his way to like the dotted line against Devin of a cell drew some help and kicked out to case and Wallace for the only three that case and Wallace made in the game it's like well I mean like what we can't get a little bit when you're when she's game is off when the whole offense is clogged up you can't do like we can't get a little more of that I know he's, we do this with Mobley too, right?

27:38Like he's not going to put his head down and post up and get us 25, like any big man, but like 45 points in four games, it just is not enough. I mean,

27:48Bill Simmons:especially when you're starting to lose scores on your team game by game. It was just, I just think it's been a weird series. All right, we're going to take a break and we're going to come back and we're going to do pressure rankings for what might end up being an awesome seven game series right after this. This episode is brought to you by America's cookout classics, Heinz, Kraft, and Oscar Mayer. This summer, we're celebrating 250 years of America cookouts with all the classics. Heinz, Kraft, and Oscar Mayer. I love hot dogs. Anytime it's a cookout, you have to have multiple kinds of hot dogs.

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29:34Bill Simmons:It's a new day and a new stay. Book now at HolidayInn.com. Let's do the pressure rankings then. Let's go. I'm coming back like Devin Vassell hitting a trail three on the delayed break. I like that I'm criticizing Chet and then I screwed up the break that I didn't have going into the thing. At least I didn't do something like pick my nose. Well, yeah, that was dangerous times. Do you want to pick first? It's your show. Well, you pick first and you just took, I assume Chet's your first pick or you want somebody else? No, I would want somebody else, but I did just do a Chet thing. So we'll pretend that's my first pick.

30:09No, I'll pick first.

30:10Bill Simmons:I'll take Chet first. Okay. I think Chet has the most pressure and the biggest spotlight on him now as we head into the rest of this series of where is it? He just, especially on the heels of the LNBA thing. I need to feel you more in this series, Chet Holmgren. You know, we talked about this with Evan Mobley, too, and I do feel like I know they're down three nothing, but I do feel like Evan Mobley went up like a half level as the playoffs went along. And I just felt like defensively, I put it this way, the position therein is not Evan Mobley's fault, I don't think. And I thought he rose to the occasion.

30:48Bill Simmons:I would like to see that from Chet. So what would be your first pick for the pressure rankings? Well, I'll just steal your thunder and go straight to the top. Shea has had an OK series. he's shooting 39 % through four games and less than 30 % on threes his turnovers are up he had four turnovers tonight and a bunch of them are the same kind of like I'm just going to kind of bulldoze my way into traffic and oh my god all these guards are awesome defensively I just fell over and I don't have the ball anymore turnovers and look, I get it it's Victor Woyamanyama the Spurs have the one guy who can fuck up all the shit you're trying to do, all the stuff that works against every other team, and you get into the lane, you get into all your sweet spots, and all of a sudden, there's a guy right behind you messing with your airspace back there, and this guy over here, he's just going to have to problem-solve his way out of this and have, if they're going to win this series, win two of the next three games, and J-Dub's going to be out, and Mitchell's going to be out, and we don't know, but let's just say, I think he's going to have to have two efficient games.

31:56They're not going to be like the crazy 16 of 23. Oh, my God, this is the best guard we've seen since Michael Jordan or whatever you want to say. But like 10 of 20, 11 of 22. I just think he's going to have to dig his way out of this and problem solve it, especially if we like we talked about before. If the Spurs aren't going to kind of half give him the answers by trapping him at half court with his where his decision tree becomes a little easier. uh you know look we were talking about a guy who's a two-time mvp now back-to-back finals mvp last year we've talked all season about all the historical stuff that he's on the precipice of well this is the precipice the precipice is digging out of this series and i'm not saying he's got pressure on him like i'm gonna think differently of him if they lose this series or he's been a flopping fraud the whole time or anything like that but it's just like this is it This is the moment where if the all-time greats find a way to dig out of whatever Victor Wemenyama is doing to you.

32:54Bill Simmons:I like how you frame that. And if he has a chance to be an all-time great, it's moments like this when you don't have the same team that you started the playoffs with and you're playing a ferocious opponent. Like, the best example ever of this is Jordan in the 98 playoffs. I was going to make the same comp. Yeah, Scotty's back goes out. Rodman's doing whatever. He's getting drunk every off day. He's going to Vegas. Jordan just is like, alright. But that's the greatest basketball player we've ever had. There's been other good examples. My favorite Bird season was 87 when McHale had the foot. Parrish had an ankle.

33:30Bill Simmons:DJ had an ankle. Bill Walton couldn't play. Bird just kept kind of throwing people on his back. Feels like we're there with SGA. I think one thing, there's one of the narratives from coming out of this game into game five will be the officiating and that OKC got hosed on calls and their fan base, and I don't blame them. Their fan base is going to say, you guys complain about us and we get all the calls. We get to foul. We flop. Well, we didn't get any calls in game four. And, um, and SGA got banged around by Castle and they didn't call it, but Wemby got banged around and they called it. And, and, uh, we want more fair treatment for MVP.

34:05Bill Simmons:So that'll be a whole narrative the next two days. Um, with that said, I'm just not really that afraid of leaving some of the guys open that were out there. Right? Like, I'm okay with Wallace wide open. I'm okay with Lou Dort. Caruso is the Josh Hart of this team. It's like, you're going to live with it until he makes a couple. You know, they had Williams was out. Kenrick Williams was out there at one point hitting corner threes. But I just don't know who I trust on that team. Isaiah Joe seems like their instant three guy, but they don't seem to go in that often anymore. and then Wiggins would be the other one.

34:40Bill Simmons:But I just think they're going to guard him the same way they did tonight and he's going to have to be awesome. If you're doing same game parlays, like the SGA points with the OKC win would be the reliable one, I think, for game five. I think those Kenrich-Williams corner threes are really interesting plays to go back and re-watch because the Spurs found a bit of a roadmap tonight. And look, the roadmap is having Victor Webanyama, but this roadmap was... Shea, you pick your matchup at the top of the arc, like 35 feet away. You want to run a screen and roll and get Champagne on you or Vassell on you or someone you feel a little more comfortable with, Fox, than you do Harper or Castle.

35:19Fine, we'll give you the switch. You're going to beat that guy off the dribble. Cool, like beat him off the dribble. Take your two. We're not going to double you. We're not even take your two. Because if you beat a guy off the dribble one-on-one, it's not like that guy disappears. He's going to be right on your hip at the cadence Shea plays. And then you're going to get to 16 feet. and when you get to 16 feet, a couple of things are going to happen. Thing number one is the alien is going to be in your airspace a little bit. Thing number two is there might not be a double team, but you're going to see the guy on your right and the guy on your left kind of on their toes, half stunting, getting in your field division, messing with your mind.

35:55And those reads, those moments, I don't know what the answer is when you're in that kind of sandwich of like four guys all around you and one of them is Victor Wembenyama and you haven't been given a trap 30 feet from the rim, which just unleashes the pass, pass, pass threes they've gotten. But that's where those Kenridge Williams threes in the right corner came out of, is that moment just like that. And maybe the answer is the Thunder are just going to have to play all their shooters and hope that they make enough of those threes that they get San Antonio out of that. Because I don't know what Shea's supposed to do in that airspace or how to get him in a different airspace against that defense.

36:31There was that one floater he took where you could see him thinking like, I'm Shea Gilchrist-Oxander. I got to get something in this space. And it was just this moon ball, one-handed right-handed moon ball that had no shot at going in. And it was like, you don't see a player of his skill set look that, like unleash a shot that like is a no chancer from 13 feet away.

36:54Bill Simmons:Jalen Williams, not the injured one, the center, one for seven from three tonight. McCain was 0 for five. Isaiah Joe was two for seven. Dort was 0 for one. Caruso took one shot, I think, right? Chet was 0 for one. Yeah, Caruso. One too many greatest role players ever segments for him on podcasts and TV shows last two days. The gods had to ding him with the hammer. But those shots, I thought, for the most part, were pretty open. And they just didn't make them. They missed 31 of their first 35 threes, right? Dort has 15 points in the whole series. and I know we're not going to him I think he has two threes and I know we're not going to him for points like that's not what he does but the Thunder when they're rolling and when they won the championship there's just a lot of Lou Dort two for five three for seven kind of games where he just makes just enough to make it hurt and he has two in four games that's somebody that I don't feel like will be in the Thunder next year team option they've got to put money somewhere it's a different conversation alright my next pressure pick

38:11Bill Simmons:you know you just took the best guy on OKC I was going to say I've left you with not much to do yeah it really has to be Wemby and normally I would say he's 22 and he's playing with house money at this point this playoffs have already been a massive win for him but A, they have a chance to win the title. B, we saw him get a little spooked in game three, I felt like, or whatever was going on with him. So it's not like he's, we know he's human because if he wasn't human, he would just be rolling through the league every game. But I wonder as we get closer and closer to the end of this and the spotlight gets bigger, his tendency is the hotter the spotlight, the better he plays.

38:53Bill Simmons:So we'll see. But it just feels like if he has a game like he had in game one or even a game like he had tonight, then I feel like they're going to win the series with the injuries on OKC side. Kind of up to him. What's your next one? Yeah, if he's the best guy by a significant margin, obviously that's a big one. I was going to cheat and just go the collective of Fox Harper Castle. And only because the guard crew, only because keeping the turnovers down is the single best way to get yourself into a game against the Thunder. And they did that tonight. And it's been a little up and down throughout the series because two of those guys have played limited minutes in a couple of games and Castle's been overtaxed.

39:34But if like, I mean, you would want to single out Fox because he's the vet, the experienced guy. But I just think the three of them together have to have a very clean game. Two more very clean games.

39:48Bill Simmons:Yeah, I would have taken Castle with my next pick for just because of some of the stuff I talked about on my pod on Thursday about the Westbrook 2008 to 2016. That side where he's just you love everything he does. But there's there's a couple of times he gets a little out of control, a little sloppy. Now that Fox is there, it feels like that goes away. my next guy would be McCain because if they don't have Mitchell and they don't have Jalen Williams and I thought he he just didn't have it tonight he was terrible and this was after a weekend of everybody shitting on Daryl and oh my god and I can't believe they traded him so where do you stand on that trade when it happened I was surprised I was certainly surprised that it was the way Philadelphia chose to save money I was I just I wouldn't give up a player that had showed me what he showed in albeit 20-whatever games as a rookie.

40:45I was kicking myself for not anticipating the Thunder being the team to overpay and get him. It was just such a perfect trade and such a perfect fit. He's sort of like their super-duper version of Isaiah Joe. Not the shooter that he is, but someone with a lot more ball-handling juice and kind of moxie to his game. I understood why the Sixers did it. Um, and that they got more return than they were going to get ever trading Jared McCain. Cause he was not playing for their team, uh, which is also their fault, but, uh, and that he was trapped behind those two guards who were going to be their franchise mainstays.

41:20But I don't know. It's, it seemed like a, an unnecessary gamble to me.

41:26Bill Simmons:Yeah. So he wasn't playing for them. And I think the, the case was that his stock was only going to get worse and you're cashing in on these picks that are easier for track. We've heard the arguments. My, the question remains to me is why wasn't he playing more? It's not like he was on the 86 Celtics and Max, he was playing 40 minutes a game and Edgecombe was playing like 39. So even if you say, well, he's behind those guys, it's like, well, so what? You still have 96 guard minutes per game. You still have an 82 game season plus playoffs with, you know, injuries and all the wear and tear of a season.

42:01Bill Simmons:Like, Like, why wouldn't you want to have three good guards? And it felt like Nurse probably quit on him a little bit and it was only going to get worse. And it's like, well, if we get to the offseason, we won't even be able to get a first for him. But it was a weird one because he did so well last year as a rookie. It's not like, oh, it wasn't like a Cam Reddish thing. It's like, oh, he's got so much potential. He was so good in high school. Like, Jerry McCain was good last year before he got hurt. So weird trade. and I get it that they wanted the assets, but wouldn't it be suspicious to you if OKC was like, we love Jared McCain.

42:38Bill Simmons:Here are a bunch of picks for him. That would be a fucking red flag. It's like, maybe we should keep this guy. Presti really wants him. Like, should we be re-evaluating this? Yeah, you wonder if Sam Presti is like, yeah, you know, he's probably not going to be in our rotation, but it's a nice flyer for us. Hey, look, we have all these extra picks. Yeah, just take some of our picks. We'll take them off your hands. and here he is in the rotation but to your point three-point shooting is kind of cooled off even in his big game and in game three it was mostly twos uh yeah and he took a ton of shots which is fine they needed guys to take a ton of shots it's a good pick that's because if it's not those two guys the j-dub and aj then it's got to be it's someone among this group is going to have to give you 18 to 22 points like it's just it's okay well case and wallace was five of eight from three it's going to have to be one of those guys what do you have for your next pick do you have anybody left well look i mean i don't know we haven't taken a coach well i mean one coach just won the championship a year ago and the other coach is uh a it you know was a former interim now permanent fill-in for one of the greatest coaches of all time and this team won 60 whatever games i don't you know i don't think there's any i don't think any seats are getting hot uh i'll go i'll go like this is going to be near and dear to your heart.

43:54I don't know if the nuns can go to every game, but it's not his fault. It's not his fault. But Luke Cornett, minus 9 in 13 minutes, I will just put him in as the symbol of, even in this blowout game, the non-Wemby minutes are just, it's Yokochi now, where it's just like, I don't know what the best lineup combination is. Do we throw all the guards out there? but I'll put him in as the unfair standalone, uh, symbol of those minutes. I thought Cornette was okay today. He was good. This was the best game of the series. I think I'm going with the,

44:31Bill Simmons:uh, the two ladies who, uh, their bodies from the neck down were just on camera behind Mitch Johnson. And there's been, there was some commotion about them on the internet's heading into the game. Yeah. This wasn't the first time. Um, and, uh, and I think it's going to become a talking point. I think people are going to be looking forward to game six, certain types of people on the internets that enjoy these things. But it was certainly, it was certainly interesting every time they cut to Mitch Johnson, what was going on behind him. So you're saying they're, they're under pressure. They're under pressure.

45:04Bill Simmons:Yeah. Cause now people are expecting it for game six. Like the Spurs are up three, two. Yeah. Did you see, I know you're a fan of watching. We can, we like the way we watch games. we see the in arena entertainment sometimes during the commercial breaks did you see mark henry's appearance tonight i did not well i mean if you want to talk about someone who's under pressure i would nominate rumble rumble the bison the thunder mascot was at this game in san antonio and in one unless i took acid and hallucinated it in one of the the commercial breaks they had mark henry come out from the stands and i was like i don't know like what's mark henry doing here is what's going to happen.

45:47And he chair shotted rumble, the bison and, and then kicked them a little bit on the ground while the Spurs coyote, like freaking Jimmy Hart with the megaphone was like jumping around, taunting rumble, the bison. So my question for rumble, the bison is why'd you agree to this? Why are you at this? Yeah. You're losing to Mark Henry. You didn't, you didn't think like, Oh, the Spurs are being so nice, inviting me to the game. My mascot friend must really love me. You didn't think his setup was in play. And how are you going to respond? Is the coyote getting in his light? Is the coyote getting kidnapped?

46:19Like, how are you going to respond to this? You can't just let this stand. Maybe they're doing a home and home.

46:24Bill Simmons:Is that possible? Maybe now he has to go to OKC. I had a couple side note things. And then I want to ask you who you think is going to win game five. So there's a lot of role player. Caruso, where he stands in the role player all-time rankings, all that stuff. obviously the best role player of the 2020s, best role player of the century. Reggie Miller in the pregame show was talking about how important role players are and then proceeded to list multiple guys who aren't role players, who were actually just really good players, who were like borderline NBA guys. I didn't see this. He was going backwards and he was like, 2024, Derek White.

47:04Bill Simmons:And then I was like, Derek White's not a role player. I just, there's a specific type of role player Mount Rushmore that I think we have to discuss. And the first person who has to be mentioned anytime the conversation happens is Robert Horry. I just want to say that as a PSA to everybody who likes basketball, everybody has a platform. Robert Horry has to be the first person you mentioned. It can't be Alex Caruso. It can't be Derek Fisher. It has to be Robert Horry who won seven titles. I put him in my pyramid of my basketball book. He's the only role player that made it because he had so many big moments that I wrote this thing about and I was like, if I told you the Robert Horry game is on ESPN Classic, you wouldn't know what game I was talking about.

47:49Bill Simmons:It could be any of seven games. Is he on the Lakers? Give me the team and I'll try to guess what game it is. So Robert Horry has to be first and he's the perfect example of a role player where it doesn't matter if he's getting his stats. He always has a knack for getting better and it matters. He's always doing the dirty work and that's, to me, a definition. Derek White's like of star. Like he's a really good player. Iguodala is an interesting one where on Golden State, Golden State Iguodala became a role player, like an overqualified role player. Right? I think the four best are Horry, Iguodala, until Caruso.

48:23Bill Simmons:And I want to have the Caruso combo really quickly. Horry, Warriors, Iguodala, Derek Fisher, and Michael Cooper. Now I'm not, this is my lifetime. So I'm not doing Casey Jones, Satch Sanders, people like that. But I think those are the four. And then apologies to Bobby Jones, who I think was better than a role player. I actually think he was like a notch above. Mary Ellie is definitely there. Danny Ainge, I don't know where to put him. Kiss of death, Mario. Mario Ellie is one of my all-time favorite role players. He's in there. And then Caruso. But does Caruso crack the top four for you, like post-merger?

49:05Bill Simmons:because he's got the title on the Lakers. He's got the title with OKC. He has a chance to win another one. If you get three, like you're really in a different conversation now. You know who has three with three different teams is Danny Green. Also a very good role player. Danny Green is another good one. Of recent vintage. Yeah, I'm going to add him to the list. That's a great one. I think we need parameters to your point about Derek White and even Andre Iguodala. Derek White received all NBA votes today. The balloting came out. He've received a few third team all NBA votes. I don't know if a role player can receive all NBA votes and Iguodala is an all-star.

49:39Like I did do, are we allowing all-stars like one time, two time all-stars drew holiday? Is he a role player? We do go. We got to throw them out.

49:46Bill Simmons:Well, so I guess the question is if you're one of your best four players on your team, are you a role player? I think the fourth best player could be in, in a lot of cases, a quote unquote role player. I think it has to be five through nine. Okay. That's fine. I'm fine with that. I'm just saying, like, Iguodala was a 20-point scorer in an all-star. I believe he made an all-star team in his early one, maybe in his Sixers era. Maybe I'm wrong. Like, Draymond Green's another one, not a role player. Like, don't put him in this. It has to be like a Mara Ellie. The team could win with or without the person.

50:19Bill Simmons:They could probably survive. But the person is the cherry on the sundae, you know? Who's your favorite random role player ever? I mean who's your guy who just never who never really landed on the right team Josh Hart by the way is another role player Mount Rushmore potentially but he hasn't won a title but he's that's a good one he's right at the point though is he too good for role player status he's not a top four guy on his team but is there a guy that you were like man if he had only just landed on the right team I'm going to just throw three names at you just that you know I have no preparation I know, I didn't prep you at all.

50:58Trevor Ariza.

51:01Bill Simmons:Well, Trevor Ariza won one, though. He gets one for 09, so he gets to at least be in this little club. Okay. The SNL five-timers club. You get the jacket, at least. He had better years than this because of the teams he was on, but I just had the softest of soft spots for Lofonzo Ellis. Oh, interesting. I like that one. Same era, same team. team i i just like late 90s me was like man these teams should be trying to get the sean lettered on their team he's like just he's just a random like a mario ellie kind of guy tough like he you know the heat got him at one point i just for some reason i just loved sean leonard this just again random names i have uh one that never gets mentioned anymore and should is james posey oh yeah two out of three years won the title doing awesome role player stuff um there's other versions of it right there's the eddie house type i wouldn't i wouldn't say that fits for this fisher was an amazing one fisher had just one of the most bizarre careers ever was just in a million i think he's like second or third most playoff games ever was on all these different teams even when okc who's basically a dead body on okc you know because he's like well it's still derrick fisher maybe he still has it and they were still uh wrong with him okay well can i can i throw another name we're gonna name some guys territory yeah did nick batoum ascend beyond this at at his portland prime never won that yeah well he's he's a classic never did he even make a finals uh i don't think so um all right well we named some guys that was fun but sean leonard shout out for sean leonard oh Oh, Tayshaun Prince is a fantastic.

52:43He counts, right? Oh, my God, he counts. Yes. Okay, great. Who do you have winning game five? I picked Thunder in seven. I'll pick the Thunder when game five. I don't, I don't, you, someone asked me this. I was at the Knicks game the other day, game two, and people are like, oh, do you think he's going to win? Who do you think he's going to win? I'm like, let me just, let's just go through what's happened in the last two weeks. Cleveland, with a chance to close out the Pistons at home in game six, gets their asses kicked by a million points. and it's like, oh, the Pistons have all the momentum.

53:12They're going home for game seven. They lose by 30 points. Like the individual games, I don't know. I'm just going to say the Thunder because I picked the Thunder, but I will say something in my... You know what? No. Forget it. Spurs. Spurs figured something out tonight and the Thunder are rattled. I'm going to go Spurs. Sticking with Thunder in seven, though. I'm sticking with Thunder in seven.

53:31Bill Simmons:I think Spurs, I could... I would lean toward them game five because of the injuries. I don't think it'll mean they win the series. That's where I would land. um okay i think it's we're almost time to bring sean fennessey in to talk about the knicks but before as we as we as sean warms up in the bullpen here um what are you on a scale one to ten

54:03Bill Simmons:what are you prepared for with cleveland in the offseason if they get swept I mean everything anything I mean I don't do they have one person you'd be like no way they're trading that dude um no do you so if they brought me in as a conciliary okay I would Mobley would be my one keeper I'd want another year with him I liked how he played in the playoffs and I just feel like I hang nothing on him and if I'm giving up mobile I have to get somebody awesome back. I'm not trading Mobley for Giannis. That's an absurd trade. There's no way they should do that. It's crazy because last year I suggested that would be the trade.

54:44Bill Simmons:All the Bucs fans got mad at me. Why is it absurd? I just wouldn't do it. I don't think Giannis is changing the destiny of the Cavs winning the title. I don't think that was their issue. Their issue was that they have a backcourt of Donovan Mitchell and James Harden who can't guard any guards. Well, I was just playing devil's advocate because the argument for it, which you can find people who would make i i i would be very hesitant to do it too and probably not because then i've just made myself in two deals i've made myself so much older all of a sudden yeah but i do i do now have an interesting two year three year window with donovan mitchell and yannis that's interesting but um i i don't know that i've seen enough from this team to be like well we're you know we're so close.

55:28Bill Simmons:If Brooklyn called and said, we'll give you the sixth pick in our 2029 first for Mitchell, we'll just take them off your hands. No way. No way for who? You're doing that as Cleveland? Yeah. I'm not even blinking. Like all those guys at six, 2029 first, I'm assuming Brooklyn is, I mean, look, all the pick values are going to change. And I saved$50 million in all the luxury tax stuff. And do I think Mitchell's going to be on my team two years from now is he going to stay i'm doing that well okay so you gave your future you gave your consigliere self knowledge of donovan mitchell's plans that i personally don't have and he said all the right things about cleveland i wanted to stay in cleveland he signed extensions there before um but you know there is an interesting conversation to be had of like is with all these guys really like is the next contract going to be worth it um I'm resetting.

56:25Bill Simmons:I made a run at it. It didn't happen. I have a chance to get an all-NBA guy in this draft. I keep Mobley. I reset. I reset my tax. I lick my wounds and I get ready to make another run at it with a younger team. I would, is where I would land. I would love to still have Darius Garland in that scenario, but alas, uh, this episode of the Bill Simmons podcast brought to you by Spectrum Business. Fast, reliable internet means everything for your business. and even this podcast. That's why I trust Spectrum Business. They keep companies of all sizes connected with internet, advanced Wi-Fi, phone, TV, mobile services, plus 24-7 US-based support.

57:04Bill Simmons:Millions of business owners already trust Spectrum Business. So visit spectrum.com slash business to learn more. Restrictions apply. Services not available in all areas. This episode is brought to you by WeatherTech. Everyone knows winter is the MVP in making a mess. You don't need WeatherTech floor liners in the summer. unless you hit the beach or go camping. Then you'd want a cargo liner or a road trip goes sideways, ketchup goes rogue, ice cream drips. Yeah, you'd be pretty happy about those WeatherTech seat protectors. So just to be clear as the mud, you're inevitably going to step into the summer.

57:38Bill Simmons:You don't need WeatherTech unless you plan on doing summer. Visit weathertech.com today. Not. But alas, you know who we do have is Sean Fennessey. Oh boy. Yes. What's up? So I owed Sean Fennessey this appearance because we've known each other for 14 years. I've made 100 million Knicks jokes. He's also come on my pod many times after sad Knicks events. I feel like almost exclusively, almost every time you've come on, something terrible has happened with the Knicks. They've had a bad loss. They've done a dumb trade. Now everything's flipped. So you have the floor. Just tell us how it feels.

58:20Sean Fennessey:Not today, Bill. it's Memorial Day weekend I've been drinking I'm feeling really good right now man we did it I feel like I want to go get a glass of wine and come back and just really really savor this well you know it's funny the last time I was on was the last bad moment I've had as a fan of this team it's amazing I came on after what was it game three of that Hawks series and we could not have been more low two brutal one point losses and look at us now we're flying Bill

58:50Bill Simmons:10 in a row. Some interesting stats, Zach, with this 10 in a row and the point differential and stuff about teams, like if they pull up the sweep tomorrow, teams that have only lost twice heading into a finals. Some pretty interesting teams on the list. To me, I thought whoever won this West Series was winning the title. And now you see the attrition on both sides in this West Series. I don't even know who's going to be playing next week, whereas the Knicks are going to be nice and rested. And it's just feeling pretty magical. I don't know, Zach, where's your head at with this next thing? You talked about a little last night.

59:28I said it after the Philly series. They can win the championship. You know, I think the Spurs is a coin flip. I think full strength Thunder is, I think I said, like 25, 30 % chance the Knicks could win. Obviously, the Thunder aren't at full strength. I think this is a legitimately really good team that has found whatever they needed to find and are in this zone now that I don't think they're coming out of it. I don't think there's a crisis around the corner where all of a sudden they lose their rhythm or, you know, Towns all of a sudden wants more shots or whatever it is that would disrupt their rhythm.

1:00:02I don't think that's coming. I think this is the team and this is the level of play we're going to see going forward. And I think they're just a strange team. Like Brunson is a strange guy to game plan for towns at the five is, is a really interesting, tough look to deal with. And when they put sham it in, it's really tough to deal with. They're just, they're an unusual team that plays it in unusual cadence. And I think they're going to sustain this level of play. I think they can win. I said, after the Philly series, they can win. This is not, this is not, you know, I was at game one, Nick's calves.

1:00:34And it was the day after game one Spurs thunder. and there was like some snickering going around from some of the people you know some of the league figures agents etc in attendance not people with the teams so yeah that was a nice win by the Knicks a nice comeback but like the real finals is happening over there and I was like I don't think that's true I just don't think that's true anymore I think they can win Sean's head's gonna explode.

1:00:58Sean Fennessey:I've been turning this over in my head, obviously, a lot. And I was just in Europe for 10 days and watching games at 2 o 'clock in the morning and trying to wrap my head around what was really going on here. And I was afraid to come back to the United States, to be totally honest. I was nervous that if I came back, things would go awry. And then I just watched yesterday's game in normal Pacific time and everything, again, they just seemed different. And I remember watching them in February, and Bill, we probably were texting about it back then, when they just seemed not together. It was unclear what Towns' role really was on the team.

1:01:31Sean Fennessey:He was doing the same dumb defensive lapses and stupid fouling that he's been doing for the first decade of his career. And things came together near the end of the season. They started playing better in the last 10 or 15 games of the year. They did win the NBA Cup. It's not like they did win 50 games. And, you know, it's not like they weren't consistently good this year. But, you know, I think also some things broke right for them in the playoffs. I think it's nice that the Celtics had to play an incredibly inspired Sixers team who were desperate to beat the Celtics. The Pistons, I think, were a paper tiger all season, but they also did not particularly have answers for the two teams that they played.

1:02:10Sean Fennessey:And I got to give it up to Mike Brown, man. I don't know how much you guys have been talking about it, but he's done stuff with this team that Tibbs was not doing. and it was controversial, especially in New York, whether or not Tib should have been fired. And it's a huge freaking relief to me that he was, even though I think he's responsible for rebuilding this franchise in a lot of ways because Mike Brown is flexible, man. And he plays the bench and the bench has been a huge part of this run. The fact that they're so deep. I remember I was talking to CR before the Sixers series and he was like, well, you guys aren't deep.

1:02:40Sean Fennessey:And I was like, that's wrong. Like this team routinely plays eight guys, sometimes nine guys in playoff games. And I don't know if you guys have been watching Landry Shamit for the last three weeks, but he looks like an elite bench player in the NBA. It's been amazing.

1:02:54Bill Simmons:Yeah, Kyrie completely quit on him when he was on Brooklyn. I remember feeling like he was on his way out of the league. I was looking, so this has been a 10-game odyssey to get to the point they got to yesterday. I was so impressed by how they played yesterday. And you look at the box score, and it's like if you were just drawing on a map what the ultimate Knicks box score would look like, The Brunson had 30. OG Bridges had 23 and 21. Bridges was 11 for 15. And you felt him the whole game, right? He was just, he was either running the floor or he was running in little open spaces in the half court.

1:03:27Bill Simmons:He was just, you felt him. Whereas like most of the season, it felt like he was just in the corner with his hand up or not doing anything. Towns was 13, eight and seven with zero turnovers. Hart was 12, nine and five with four steals. And Shamit had 14 off the bench. They were 11 for 28 from threes. They shot 55%. And they had actual ball movement. And you just look at it and it's like, these six guys make sense together. And then you throw in McBride and Mitch, now you have eight. But it was, watching this, I was like, it felt a little 2004 range Pistons to me. Which is interesting because I think that was the model for how they built this team.

1:04:07Bill Simmons:Like it was Leon Rose and World Wide West. West was a huge Pistons guy. Like he was a Detroit guy and that, and that model of like, just bringing in competitive veterans, guys like hitting the right points of their careers, guys are going to sacrifice. Um, and you go through the moves they made, like the Pistons, they, they had Ben Wallace, they signed Billups and traded for Hamilton in the same summer. They drafted Tayshaun, but then the big move was they fired Rick Carlisle and hired Larry Brown. It's basically what the Knicks did with Tibbs, right? And then the Rasheed Wallace deadline trade was the other one.

1:04:40Bill Simmons:the Knicks, they had some luck with Dallas fucking up the Brunson thing, right? Was it 4 for 55, Zach? For Brunson? Dallas could have locked them down? There's a whole I don't think we have time to dig into the whole Jalen Brunson who said what, when, what was offered when, why wasn't it offered when. It's just outrageous that Dallas lost him. Yes, there was a time where they could have locked him down for that, and if they had been a little more proactive, I think they probably could have. So They signed Hartenstein, who was like a stopgap. But the other big lucky break for them was the Mitchell-Utah trade, which I forgot the details.

1:05:17Bill Simmons:Do you remember what the holdup was on that trade, Sean?

1:05:20Sean Fennessey:No. What was the holdup?

1:05:22Bill Simmons:The Jazz really wanted Grimes in the trade, and the Knicks wanted Quickly in the trade. And it became like, well, it's either three unprotected firsts or two firsts and are protected, depending on who is in it. And then they said, fuck you, and took the Cleveland trade. Zach, if they have Mitchell and Brunson, does that team make sense to you? Plus, you don't have all the extra picks to trade for Bridges. I was also going back and rereading the Donovan Mitchell trade stuff for different reasons. But I remember thinking at the time, and Ian Begley is and was the most plugged in Knicks guy at the time.

1:05:57And he had a lot of the details about, well, this offer was made here at this timeline. And was there a pick here? And it's just like, it just made me think, did the Knicks really want to do this?

1:06:10Bill Simmons:Like, they want to do it on their terms almost versus actually wanting to do it. Because they knew the question you just asked me about, like, these two guards, small score firsts, like, is this actually going to work? And if we use all these assets here, what do we have left for stuff down the line? Look, I'm sure there was part of their front office that really wanted to do it. and there was debate internally about this pick, that pick. But the bottom line is they did not go as all in as they needed to go all in. And I think it unquestionably saved them. It unquestionably the roads not taken for them are, are that are Embiid.

1:06:47And obviously Giannis is the one that happened to Sean's point halfway through the season. All the discourse was, well, they blew with McHale bridge. They don't have picks for Giannis. They're hopeless. And, you know, they're just kind of stuck in a, I was re-listening to the live show I did in Brooklyn because I felt at the time, it was mid-March, and I felt like the whole show was me giving Knicks fans a pep talk. Like, no, you guys are third in offense, sixth in defense. I know it's been a little rocky, but who's beating you in the East? Because it felt like Knicks fans needed a pep talk. I was like, I don't...

1:07:22Sean needed one.

1:07:23Bill Simmons:I could tell you that much.

1:07:25Sean Fennessey:I didn't have huge expectations for the playoffs. I thought they should definitely beat the Hawks, and then after that, I thought it was a crapshoot because I thought any of those top five teams, a lot of things also like the magic, not having to deal with the magic and then the magic kind of falling apart was another thing that went their way. There were a million things that went their way. To the point about Donovan Mitchell, if they had acquired him and they tried to pair them together, I think it might've been a somewhat similar situation that Brunson had to contend with through the first four seasons of his professional career, essentially playing behind Luka.

1:07:54Sean Fennessey:And so you could say like the Mavs mismanaged that scenario or maybe there was nothing they really could have done. by just having a superstar backup point guard behind the single best backcourt player in the sport. But you just can't under, like, overstate who and what Brunson is. There's just, there has never been a New York Knick like him. There are very few players in the NBA like him. I think, like, maybe now, finally, NBA fans who, like, even if they deep down hate the Knicks, Like you can't watch him for nine consecutive fourth quarters and consistently watch him just take over games and be unguardable.

1:08:34Sean Fennessey:I mean, his shot making, he's been doing this since he came to the Knicks. This is not new. It's like it's the supporting cast that you just described, Bill. It's those guys, those pivotal moves that they've made, acquiring OG, acquiring McHale, you know, building up Robinson so that he could play 65 games in a season, acquiring Cat. All of that stuff has changed. Brunson's been basically the same guy who scores 27 points a game, who is fearless down the stretch, who always puts the team on his shoulders. And when the team isn't going well, we can point to him and say, oh, well, you know, it's ISO ball and it's all Brunson and he's taking nine of 13 shots in the fourth quarter.

1:09:10Sean Fennessey:But when they're going good and when the supporting cast looks good, that works. And it's gonna, it has been working throughout this playoffs. And I genuinely, you know, you can talk about like Walt Clyde Frazier. Earl Monroe. It's a very short list of guys that he is now getting into the conversation with after just five seasons. And I don't know. It's making my head spin. When we picked him up, I was not against the move at all. It was obviously a very savvy contract, but never in my wildest dreams did I ever think he would become this person to the franchise.

1:09:42Bill Simmons:We all like Brunson. I think that Knicks felt like he could be this guy. I do think Liano West did feel that way. I thought that was crazy. I clearly thought he, I might've even said it in the pods. Like this guy could be one of the best three guys on a final four team. Like there's no question. I didn't think he could be what he became. You're talking about like for an entire generation of Knicks fans, well, multiple generations. But if you're talking about like 30 and under Knicks fans, like this is like their David Ortiz, basically. If they win the title, he becomes David Ortiz. One of the things about how they put the team together, they were cutthroat a couple times.

1:10:21Bill Simmons:The Towns trade was cutthroat. Randall was their guy. They brought him in. They gave him a big extension. They went and signed DiVincenzo. They traded, I think, what they traded Toppin to have the DiVincenzo money. Villanova guy, this is our crew now. And then they had a chance to get Towns. And they just slit their throats, basically, and went and got Towns. That was cutthroat. and then the tips firing. Kind of have to do that sometimes. You know, there's a difference between being desperate and cutthroat. Those were two moves that were probably the right moves. But it's still like, I don't know if all teams make those moves, Zach.

1:11:00Bill Simmons:No. It's like what we talked about earlier where if OKC is like, Chet can't defend Wemby, we're trading him. And it's just like, we're cutting his throat. Some teams won't do it. No, the Towns one was a risk. and it's one that has has gone up and down uh over like halfway through the season it looked like did minnesota like kind of win this trade cats all over the place and and like randall's playing really well and divincenzo's essential and now it's like swung totally the other way but it was a bet on it was a ceiling bet it was a we need to take some risk of absorbing this contract because it if it works our ceiling goes up a level that randall and divincenzo just can't they need a center can't take you needed a center and you need a five who can shoot um and yeah i mean they've been and an adobe was the guy they clearly just targeted and brunson i remember i was with you guys i mean i remember vividly doing on my old podcast like that deal was slammed like really unpopular contract in a lot of corners and i remember saying i don't i don't love it but it's like a bb plus like jalen brunson's a really good player and like it's a lot at that time but like It's a BB plus contract.

1:12:10Obviously, in retrospect, it was an A plus plus plus. What was it? Was it four for 100?

1:12:15Sean Fennessey:What was it? A little more than that. It was four for 106. Yeah, 106.

1:12:18Bill Simmons:I was on the bullish side for it, but I also was like, yeah, guys, career average is 11 points a game. You know, it's definitely on the higher end. I do think we're all overlooking just a huge story here and a huge fly in the ointment. Chalamet? No, even more dire. than the celebrity fandom of the Knicks. The return of Chalamet to being on TV and stuff? Which my dad, by the way, hates. He's like, I don't understand. Do they pay for their tickets? Why do all these rich people get free stuff? I don't like it. Even more dire. And Sean, I think you need to be worried. I think you need to be on high alert.

1:12:56Oh, no. I don't know if you know this, but the Cavs have won the shock quality battle through three games in this series. I think you guys are actually on the ropes here. I think if you look at the tracking data, It's neck and neck, but the Cavs have a slight edge in shot quality. And let me tell you, I think the league is going to retroactively go back and look at the shot quality and flip the results of these games. And you might be down 2-1 tomorrow morning. So I wouldn't get too excited about the finals just yet. Or the Cavs get rolling 4-3.

1:13:26Bill Simmons:Deceiving 3-0, Sean. Don't get comfy.

1:13:29Sean Fennessey:I did see that interview with Kenny Atkinson today, which was very amusing. Let's just say it's been passed around amongst Knicks fans. um listen i are you scared sean are you scared of what the next four games portend because of this i don't what i don't want is to say something stupid and then all of a sudden this series is 3-3 and i'm getting clipped by like calves busting genius you know on x.com um i i i'm very excited about how well they've played and you know what as a as a dork who looks at exit velo and hard hit rate in baseball. I do like trick myself into thinking that that shit matters.

1:14:07Sean Fennessey:But like, look, the Cavs just haven't been able to hit threes in this series, but also the Knicks play great defense. So both things can be true. Look, if you played those games 150 ,000 times, it might be a different result. Unfortunately, Sean, this is the result that actually matters, and it's 3-0. And the fact is that Timothee Chalamet was courtside for two of those games, so maybe he's in Donovan Mitchell's head. Have we considered that? Maybe he's in James Harden's head.

1:14:32Bill Simmons:very possible. Here's the other thing. Game four is already over because there was a play at the end of game three that made me convinced the Knicks were going to sweep them. That Jalen Brunson hesitation layup, when all five Cavs just decided they weren't going to move anywhere, that's the kind of thing that happens when you're going home in two days. I don't think you can come back from that.

1:14:52Sean Fennessey:They kind of quit. In the fourth quarter, they kind of quit.

1:14:54Bill Simmons:It was a quitting, is what was going on.

1:14:56Sean Fennessey:Yeah.

1:14:57Bill Simmons:And I think the Knicks can smell it, and the Knicks... Sean, this is the prologue of my book, The Secret. The next part of the problem with them during the season is everybody was having to sacrifice stuff. And there were all these different times when people didn't seem that happy about the sacrificing. Those guys are all locked in now. I don't know how it happened over these last 10 games, but it happened. And that's the great thing about sports when you watch it happen in real time.

1:15:21Sean Fennessey:I think, obviously, OG was unstoppable until he got injured. But the secret is what you already talked about, which is that Bridges shooting 75 % from the field and being back to that mid-range guy and also being really comfortable as basically the second option offensively has just totally transformed the offense for them. The early story was Cat being point Cat, but that has kind of moved out recently and Bridges just having much more usage in the offense makes them way more dynamic and scary. I mean, they're going to match up totally differently though with either of the two teams in the West, assuming they go forward.

1:15:54Sean Fennessey:It's going to be a different looking offense and it's going to be harder, I think, for Brunson to get some of those baskets that he's been getting in the last two series. But I have to enjoy this. I mean, it's 53 years since the Knicks have won a title. It's 27 years since they've been in the NBA Finals. It's 40 years since a team that I root for of the three major sports has won a title. 40 years. Like, this is very rare. And it's extremely rare to watch a team that I care about just motherfuck teams. I mean, it's just amazing how they're just dominating for the last three weeks. And so I'm such an embittered and cynical sports fan.

1:16:31Sean Fennessey:I really just got to look myself in the mirror and be like, have some gratitude, you asshole, because this is super special.

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1:18:04Bill Simmons:I got this email from Yuval in Israel. I'm going to read it to you. I remember the Mavs were 2-2 in the first round against the Brandon Roy Blazers. And people were saying Dirk is choking again. that was before the 2011 Mavs had one of the most beloved championship runs ever. Something clicked. They went on this crazy one. When 10 won the rest of the way in the West, almost every Mavs part of the moment, Perea, Chandler, Peja, even Deshaun Stevenson, they beat the villains of the league, the Heat, without home court. The Knicks have a chance to do something similar if they take out OKC. If they actually win it, will this championship be as universally beloved as the 2011 Mavs run?

1:18:46Bill Simmons:this is an interesting one because it's a New York team right Dallas everybody loved Dirk including Zach Lowe everybody had kind of given up on him having a moment like that and then he just fucking went Clint Eastwood on the 2011 playoffs and series by series just took people out and then they took out this heat team that everybody was annoyed by Zach do you see the parallels if it was okay see during this whole flop thing that this moment they're having the back-to-back and then this next team that comes out of nowhere do you think it would be as beloved as that Mavs title well it's interesting you ask that because I saw Ethan Strauss write this column this week about like basically why is this not a bigger story that the team in the biggest city in the biggest market is doing this and I'm like maybe I just live in the wrong place because It's like the defining story of my life.

1:19:39Bill Simmons:I feel like it's a massive story. 24 hours a day. So I think it could be, I mean, they're like the Knicks don't have a Dirk who's like been just beaten down and been close to the mountaintop and shoved off and is like entering the back nine of his career. And this might be his last chance. And that was also a collection of vets. But Brunson is as like the small guy underdog and small guys aren't supposed to win titles kind of. No, I'm just giving you. I'm giving you the counters before I hammer it. And the other counter is like, there are just some people who don't like New York City and don't like New York and it's too big and all the famous people.

1:20:15I think it would be, if not as universally beloved, almost so, and like such a rapturous moment around the league because it is New York, because it is the Knicks. And it may depend a little bit on who they play in the finals because the Thunder have a whiff of a different kind of villainousness to them at least in the way they're perceived around the league. Not the same as that Miami team, but there are just some parts of the country, fans in parts of the country who hate New York and be like, oh boy, the big bad Knicks and we have to listen to everyone talk about New York and the Yankees will probably win the World Series and we'll do it all again.

1:20:53Well, that would be terrible. But I think the Knicks are their own unique thing in New York City because of the sport. It's the city's game. They're the city's team. And it's been so goddamn long that I think it would be as rapturous as the Mavs one.

1:21:08Sean Fennessey:I think there's one other component to this too, which is if this had happened last season, it might have felt a little bit different because it would have felt like they were vanquishing teams that they had not beaten before. So obviously that Boston series, sorry, Bill, was like euphoric for Knicks fans because we were underdogs in that series for real. And that was a really triumphant series win. And then they got their hearts ripped out in game one of the Pacers series. And that series was effectively over. And obviously the Pacers have given the Knicks fits over the years in the playoffs.

1:21:37Sean Fennessey:And so if they had gone to the finals after that run, it would have felt different than this, where they're basically dispatching a bunch of teams that they've already beaten before. You know, the Knicks three years ago beat the Cavs in the playoffs. The Knicks two years ago beat the Sixers in the playoffs. Both of those teams were seated lower than the Knicks are. It doesn't feel like as triumphant and stunning a run to the finals. And so maybe that's part of the reason why it's not getting these incredible national headlines. Also, at the very beginning of this season, I think most pundits felt like the Knicks were the most talented team in the conference and probably should be at least in the Eastern Conference Finals.

1:22:13Sean Fennessey:In fact, the Knicks owner basically set a mandate for Mike Brown and the team that they had to make the finals, that the expectation was the NBA Finals. So it's not pre-ordained per se, but this has just been talked about for 16 months as a possibility. So it doesn't feel as stunningly special. And also, I think Zach's right that New York teams are just hated. Like, the Knicks are kind of a fumbling franchise over the last half century, but they're just not beloved. And whatever success they have had, especially in the 90s, was for kind of like brute force, unlikable style of play. And so I think for older fans, that's also burned into their brains.

1:22:52Sean Fennessey:It's like, this isn't a team that I love watching. Yeah, true. This team, though, this season, I mean, this playoffs, they've been a lot of fun to watch, I think. Offensively, they're pretty exciting.

1:23:01Bill Simmons:Yeah, so Dolan in the 2000s, a 10 out of 10 train wreck. And then the 2010s, a 10 out of 10 train wreck. That's 20 years, one fifth of a century, a complete train wreck as an owner. Right before COVID, All-Star Weekend, Chicago, I think Zach Lowe was there. No, I'd skip it. You skipped it. I skipped it because I didn't want to get COVID. Somehow I went. I went to Sundance and All-Star Weekend and the Oscars and went 0-3 on COVID. Sean went one for one.

1:23:34Sean Fennessey:I went to Sundance and have never been more sick in my life. Pleased to have been patient zero. I got it at the Sloan Conference two weeks later. It's not like my discipline sustained. Yeah.

1:23:45Bill Simmons:So they hire Leon and Wes basically three weeks before COVID. And then post-COVID, they've just turned into a completely different franchise. Dolan's been a good owner. He's He's let those guys do their thing. Supposedly, he was the one that's like, we have to fire Tibbs. You guys are being too loyal to him. He's not good enough. Get rid of this guy. He's paid for a lot of money. It's been impressive. And you'd think with that, with the Sphere, which has been one of the most successful entertainment things that has launched probably this century, Dolan's back, man. You got to hand it to him. I made a lot of jokes about him.

1:24:23Bill Simmons:I made a lot of jokes with my column and on the pod, but you got to hand it to the dude, man. he's done a good job.

1:24:29Sean Fennessey:When was he originally good at some point? Dolan's here. I thought, I really thought for a second that you were going to draw some connection from COVID to Dolan arriving. It's just a before and after. I thought there was going to be some sort of scientific commentary that was going to frighten me. My screen was just going to go black. The connection was going to get lost.

1:24:53Bill Simmons:As Sean knows, I don't really remember anything from 2020 or 2021. and there's a chance all of us are dead right now and this isn't actually happening with the Knicks. It's possible.

1:25:03Sean Fennessey:I love the idea of this being your projection in your post-COVID dream state. Yeah, that's really exciting.

1:25:09Bill Simmons:James Dolan became a good owner. But you got to hand it to him, man. He's doing a good job. The New York thing is interesting because this is such a beloved team. If you just like basketball, I just really respect how they play. I think Brunson is just one of the most admirable guys we have in the league, but it is a New York team. And there are a ton of New York fans. And I don't need to tell you, Sean, when it's going well for New York fans, they have a way of letting everybody know about that. So I'll be interested to see how everybody handles this over the next four weeks.

1:25:42Sean Fennessey:I'll just say this is the first public comments I'm making since this win streak started. I've been trying to keep my mouth shut throughout this. It's a great way to do it. I don't want to jinx it. and I'm also super grateful. However, like, give it, like, we deserve this. Come on. 53 years? You deserve it just for the last 20. Yeah, it was, the 2000s were fucking tough, man. That was a really hard time. Because in addition to being inept on the court, they were entrenched in controversy and scandal nonstop. I mean, it was a very ugly time to be a fan of that team. So this just feels different.

1:26:16Sean Fennessey:And I said this to you the last year or so, Bill, but they're just normal now. They just win like 52 games every year. They have one or two players who are in the conversation for all NBA. They're just like a legitimately good NBA franchise. The other thing I'll note is that Leon Rose does not speak to the press. Ever. Ever. And that is also so strange. And so we don't even really know very much about the architects of this team through this six-year period. We just know that they're making the right moves. And I would say six of the eight big moves that they've made since this new administration came in.

1:26:58Sean Fennessey:When they happened, I was like, that's not a good idea. It was like my old, you know, Knicks reflexes kicked in where I was like, trading Randall and DiVincenzo, I don't get that. Oh, I hope OG is a good deal, but like, he's really injury prone. We're getting older in that deal. That doesn't make sense. Oh, we missed out on Katie and Kyrie and we backfilled with Julius Randall as a free agent. And oh, four years for Brunson. And this is at the expense of getting Donovan Mitchell. Like all of those times, because Knicks fans are so beat up, you could have been like, well, we're going to get the short end of the stick on this one.

1:27:30Sean Fennessey:And every single one worked out. Even Bridges, which that trade was pilloried as recently as April.

1:27:37Bill Simmons:How about a month ago? Yeah.

1:27:38Sean Fennessey:That's what I'm saying. It was like way too many picks. And now all of a sudden, two playoffs in a row were like, nope, he's essential. He might even be the second best player on the team. and that's astonishing. That's like the fact that all those moves that those guys made worked out and they never once got in front of the public and were like, well, we did this, so trust us. They don't say anything. It's crazy.

1:27:57Bill Simmons:Well, one of the reasons you know they're good is besides Brunson, the next best three guys in the team have all had moments when they've seen like they're clearly the second best guy in the team and that's when you know you have a good team. But there, Zach, I remember doing this in the 2024 finals with Celtics Dallas when

1:28:18Bill Simmons:Celtics were favored, but maybe not as much as they should have been favored, considering the disparity with the records and stuff. And at some point, it just became math. It's like the Celtics have been in this team for eight months. This is kind of who they are. You look at the advanced stats for the playoffs, and the Knicks have their plus 18.5 for 13 playoff games. That's like a small sample size. It's three different series. and it includes them being down 2-1 in the first one. But they have the second best defensive rating. They have the best offensive rating and they have the point differential.

1:28:55Bill Simmons:They have all this mass stuff in their place. We've always learned that should be a bigger factor when you're trying to figure out what's going to happen than we give it credit for. So I assume if they blow out the Cavs tomorrow or even just win, those numbers will still be pretty good. Do you pay attention to that though, Zach? those postseason advanced metric shit? Sure. I mean, again, it's a small sample and it's so opponent-specific that, you know, it can be a little, you have to be careful, but I mean, when you are, I mean, I don't even care what the numbers are. When you're, like, I haven't even looked.

1:29:26When you're this dominant and you're winning by this many points every single game, like, I've seen some people, well, who have they played? They played the Hawks, who fattened up against all these lottery teams.

1:29:36Bill Simmons:Hawks are pretty good. But didn't hear a lot about that when it was 2-1 Hawks. Oh, they They played the Sixers, who you know they're injury prone and Joel couldn't sustain. By the way, I do have to give you this as a Celtics person. You got the week that the Sixers became the full-fledged Sixers was against you. Similarly, five seasons ago, you got the week that the Harden-Kyrie-Durant-Nets became the full-fledged Durant-Nets. That was also against you guys. It's true. But I don't want to hear about any of this because if you beat three playoff teams by this much, this many times, it says something about the group that you're in.

1:30:13And oh, by the way, they were third in offense and seventh in defense in the regular season. And seventh in defense with this roster is quite an accomplishment. Like, it was sitting there. They were, they were, now what they've done in the playoffs is a completely different thing, but they're just a really good team.

1:30:28Bill Simmons:They caught a couple, couple small breaks, but every team gets breaks every year. Tatum and Halliburton getting hurt. Giannis and Bede breaking down. But I, and that's happened. That's where Intero was scheduled year after year. The one real break I thought they caught was Detroit kind of choking at the Detroit deadline, not doing anything. Because Detroit was the one team that felt like they were going toe-to-toe with the Knicks.

1:30:51Sean Fennessey:They really had their number during the regular season.

1:30:53Bill Simmons:Why didn't they get the extra guy? If I'm a Detroit fan, I'm going crazy right now that we're not in the Eastern Finals. See, I get it. 3-0 Detroit in the regular season. I was I would have picked the Nixon six maximum the next time without even thinking that hard about it and I would not have thrown away the regular season stuff but I just would not have read too much into it and I think the Knicks were just qualitatively a better team than Detroit because I've seen a lot of Leonard was on the Pistons well okay I mean I've seen a lot of like oh Detroit with the regular season and boy they blew it against Cleveland I just like I didn't like the way they were playing in the playoffs I like the way the Knicks are playing in the playoffs, I don't read too much into those games.

1:31:38Bill Simmons:I guess you can't get too comfortable because analytically, you're losing 2-1.

1:31:43Sean Fennessey:Yeah, that's going to feel really bad when they sweep. They've lost three games to one analytically. I don't know how you're going to sleep tonight, man.

1:31:53Bill Simmons:You don't understand the month Sean's had. He goes to Cannes for the first time ever. He's there for like a week and a half. As that's happening, the Knicks go on the fucking all-time heater. It's like worm at the Chesterfield, just whipping the Russians for 24 straight hours.

1:32:11Sean Fennessey:Yeah, but they're not cheating. That's the thing to remember. No mechanic work. No dealing from the bottom of the deck. I wish the Mets would cheat, by the way, Sean. As long as we're here. I'm in for anything. Don't get me started. Get the garbage cans out in the back. Whatever you got to do. I will burn the franchise to the ground. Whatever the Knicks are doing, the Mets need to drink some of that juice. Because what the fuck, dude? Like, absolute nightmare.

1:32:32Bill Simmons:I'm not listening to you guys complain about baseball. when my owner has just thrown away baseball in Boston. All right, fair. We traded a possible Cy Young guy this year for a guy who's hitting 161.

1:32:44Sean Fennessey:Yeah, but he got you like three titles.

1:32:46Bill Simmons:Yeah, and then he's like, he's four. Four titles. Four titles. And then he's like, you guys should be more appreciative. I should be able to do what I want now.

1:32:53Sean Fennessey:I mean, he's right.

1:32:55Bill Simmons:None of us feel that way. Just sell the team. The Mets are way more embarrassing.

1:33:00Sean Fennessey:First of all, they haven't won in 40 years. Second of all, they spend$400 million on their payroll, and they have the worst offense in the sport. I want to jump off a building thinking about them. It's insane. Thank God for the Knicks. Thank God.

1:33:12Bill Simmons:If you spent money like that in basketball, your team would be good. That would just mean you have really good players. In baseball, you can spend money on Bechette, and then he could just immediately turn into the worst shortstop of the National League. He makes$42 million a year. I'm so sorry. I'm sorry. Why did you bring this up, Zach? It's my fault. You know why I brought it up? You know why I brought it up? Because I spent part of the day with my daughter, who's now a big Mets fan. We went shopping together, and she said, the Mets playing this afternoon, let's check the score. And it was the seventh inning.

1:33:44We're at the freaking mall. We're at the Stanford Mall on a Sunday. This is my life. Stanford Mall. They used to be my heyday place. Checking the Mets score, seventh inning. And I said to her, you'll never guess how many runs the Mets have in the seventh inning. It's 0-0. and we drove home. We drove home, listening to the game on the radio. Bottom of the ninth, Marlins are up. We pull into the driveway. Guys are on base. We turn on the TV and Airbender gives up a fucking walk-off grand slam right in our face. That's why I've brought it up because I had a day with it.

1:34:18Sean Fennessey:I want to hear a little bit more about Bill's heyday place, the Stamford Mall.

1:34:22Bill Simmons:What went down there? Here was the highlight. First of all, Stamford Mall was unbelievable. But one summer, Woody Allen was filming scenes from a mall with Bette Midler and they were just there. Directed by Paul Mazursky. Sometimes they're on the top floor and it was just such a big deal for the mall. Did you approach Woody and say,

1:34:42Sean Fennessey:I love your work? Thanks for everything?

1:34:44Bill Simmons:They didn't approach Woody. They had a great A &W. They had a good music. The curly fries at A &W. You could do a Sam Goody and A &W were right next to each other on the seventh floor. You could get some CDs and go get some curly fries. We had a Walden Books. It was just good times. Yeah. You guys are getting into trouble. A couple of scamps hanging on Stanford Mall. I saw two root beer floats. One of my great cinematic memories, Sean Fennessey, of the big picture is waiting in line for two and a half hours for the opening night of 1989's Batman at the Stanford Mall. That's how big that movie was.

1:35:21A bunch of 11 to 12-year-old guys were like, we're camping out, basically, to get into this movie. That's beautiful.

1:35:27Bill Simmons:I saw a lot of great ones there. I don't even know if they have a movie theater there anymore. Is the mall still nice? It still looks the same. A lot of the stores are closed. A lot of them have become arcades, basically. And one of the anchor stores, I don't know which, it might be Saks, has become allegedly the nation's largest pickleball facility. Oh, my God. That's the worst thing I've ever heard. that's like this guy who bought the trailblazers is like the biggest investor in pickleball tell you a pickleball story yeah go ahead game two nicks a team official who shall not be named says hi to me introduces me to a guy who knows joe house so hey i know joe house sam was a good starter i think his name is sam porter and uh he is the owner or founder or something of the biggest professional pickleball league.

1:36:21And he looked me straight in the eye and he said, I really, I really like what you guys do on the NBA podcasts. You know, you and Bill have great chemistry. I can't listen as much anymore. And I said, why is like, I can't take Bill's slander on pickleball. It's just too much. I can't do it. So you've lost, you've lost the listener because of your anti pickleball takes. I'll be on the right side of history.

1:36:43Bill Simmons:if we lose a couple listers around the way it's fine pickleball sucks um what was the best movie

1:36:50Sean Fennessey:you saw at can sean well club kid um stars jordan firstman who is uh rachel senate's friend from the tv show i love la it's his directorial debut he plays a guy who's a club promoter in new york city who wakes up one day and he's in his 30s and he has no money and no insurance and nothing to show for it. And 10-year-old kid shows up on his front door and is like, you're my dad. And he's like, what the fuck are you talking about? Because Jordan Firstman's character is gay in the film. And it was funny and heartwarming and old-fashioned and beautiful. And I was like, this is like a Barry Levinson movie.

1:37:22Sean Fennessey:Or it was kind of like Big Daddy, the Adam Sandler movie. And honestly, stole my heart. I had a great time watching it. Didn't expect it. It was great.

1:37:31Bill Simmons:So it's like gay Kramer versus Kramer crossed with Big Daddy?

1:37:34Sean Fennessey:Exactly. That's exactly what it is. good idea yeah and it's funny and sweet and and excellent zach did sean's projections newsletter

1:37:43Bill Simmons:about movies that he launched a couple weeks ago get your uh get your juices watered to maybe start your own version i'm an nba type thing i'm a subscriber it's uh it's it's been an idea i've

1:37:55Sean Fennessey:been kicking around i'm a little scared i forgot how to do it i i will say i was doing a chat on on the sub stack. And literally someone asked me, I signed up for your thing. I'm really glad you're here, but I really need you to get both Zach and Bill writing again. It's really important to me. And I said, I'm doing my best. So Bill, you can't just pass the buck to Zach. It goes to you too.

1:38:18Bill Simmons:I sent like a 180 word text today. I don't know if that's got me going. Just hammering the two fingers, getting going. What was it about? I don't know. It was about graduation plans. Oh, okay.

1:38:35Sean Fennessey:Well, that's not exactly like writing about the NBA, but it's a start.

1:38:38Bill Simmons:I mean, my daughter's been home for the last two weeks and you guys have younger daughters than my daughter. And she's 21 now and we go out and she can't wait to get carded and order a drink and just let you know what's coming for you guys down the road.

1:38:53Sean Fennessey:I feel very far away from that.

1:38:54Bill Simmons:Yeah. Yeah. They get just the happiness in their eyes as they're handing their real driver's license to a bartender or waiter. Kind of like the look in your eyes right now, Sean, about the Knicks.

1:39:06Sean Fennessey:My version of getting carded with my daughter is when she's like, Dad, take out your credit card so you can buy me this. There it is. Which is something I'm becoming more and more familiar with.

1:39:15Bill Simmons:All right, you can listen to Sean on The Big Picture. You can listen to Zach on The Zach Lowe Show, which will be going... You'll potentially be a Game 5, right? If Cleveland somehow comes back and wins one. Honestly, I just forgot that there could be a Game 5, to be honest with you. Yes, I would be there if it exists. I honestly think it's a wrap. And I think there's going to be 30 % to 40 % Knicks fans there tomorrow would be my other prediction.

1:39:37Sean Fennessey:Can't believe this is happening. This is unbelievable.

1:39:40Bill Simmons:Heard there can't get courtsides if you're a Knicks fan. It'll get on the ticket sites. It'll just reject you if you're not from Cleveland. What is that?

1:39:49Sean Fennessey:They'll forcibly remove you from the arena?

1:39:52Bill Simmons:They'll just reset your order. But they make room for celebrities like Taylor Swift and Travis Gil. see. Well, we're going to have some celebs at the game tomorrow, but I don't think they'll be courtside. Sean, good luck. Congratulations. I'm glad things have turned around for you.

1:40:06Sean Fennessey:Bill, thanks for inviting me on.

1:40:07Bill Simmons:Even if it partly became at the expense of my team, that's fine. We've been friends for a long time.

1:40:11Sean Fennessey:Well, I deserve at least one goddamn thing in this life. So, thank you.

1:40:15Bill Simmons:Yeah, after the sixth Tom Brady Super Bowl, you deserve something.

1:40:18Sean Fennessey:Alright, settle down.

1:40:18Bill Simmons:Tom Brady's, that's another thing that's happening for you. Tom Brady's getting super weird. This is almost like another win for you.

1:40:24Sean Fennessey:With respect, he's been an absolute weirdo for 20 years.

1:40:29Bill Simmons:Zach Lowe. Thanks as always. Good to see you. I will see you next Sunday. Thanks to Gahal and Eduardo and Jack Wilson and Chris as well. That's it for us on Netflix. I'll be back on Tuesday. Don't forget tomorrow, Animal House on the Rewatchables. Thanks everybody. Must be 21 plus in President Select States for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 plus in President DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. Give them a problem. Call 1-800-GAMBLE or 1-800-MY-RESET. Call 888-797-7777 or visit ccpg.org slash chat in Connecticut or mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelpline ma.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24-7 support in Massachusetts or call 877-8-HOPE-NY or text HOPE-NY in New York for Louisiana.

1:41:19Bill Simmons:Call 877-770-7867.

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