Part 2: Cleveland Survives, Knicks-Sixers, and Whaddya Do for Denver, Houston,  and Atlanta With Zach Lowe

22:08Bill Simmons:I thought he matched the intensity and athleticism of some of the playoff moments. They're just in a tricky spot because if they wanted to reach for the stars, they've been linked to Giannis before. What's the trade? Or is there a trade? Everyone's going to ask for Scotty Barnes. He's obviously untouchable. Is there a trade that they can even do that would satisfy the other team and leave them with enough stuff in the cupboard to actually win? I think the right move might just be like, look, we know this team. This team probably is a little better than we thought based on our playoff performance.

22:38They're a pretty good team. We know what they are. Let's not get too crazy here and just see who can rehab their trade value a little bit. Maybe there is some sort of get-out-of-jail-free card with one of these contracts. We've got all our picks. CMB is over here with Scottie Barnes. That dude is awesome, and I'm not doing anything foolish with him. I want him on my team for a long time.

22:58Bill Simmons:I like Walter, too. Walter's good. I think he's a keeper. Yeah, they learned some good stuff about some of their young players in this series. Walter was totally up for this, made some big shots, had a little slump in the middle of the series. CMB's awesome. Shed's a nine-man rotation guy. Yeah, so they have a couple. The problem is that Pertl extension kills them for a Giannis thing. Because if that wasn't attached to the end, and when you talked about go crazy, like that was crazy when it happened, and now it seems even crazier. But you could have had expirings and RJ expiring in two years left, or one year.

23:29Bill Simmons:That would have been expiring for Pertl. So basically, that would have been your expiring package. And they have all their picks. They have everything. So they can do every combination of picks and swaps. so that if Giannis had said send me to Toronto they at least could have had something semi respectable I'm not sure they're going to be able to get there the way it is now Grady Dick just not being able to play is a pretty big disappointment what happened with that you liked him for a split second didn't you he can do some stuff um he just hasn't made enough shots and he's not good enough defensively and he he's got some it just Walter just passed him and there was only room for one of them in the rotation and that's did he do enough that he can get a grady dick was a problem twitter video in like 10 years or no easily we can make it this week if you want it could be at least three and a half minutes long all right good i just want to make sure he at least had that yeah only the half of the video would be jersey swaps the other half would be his actual place true uh the big thing for them was barnes had a great season he went up a level i am not sure he could be the best guy on a championship game, but he can definitely be the second best guy.

24:38Bill Simmons:And he might even be able to be the Jalen Brown with his version of Tatum. I thought, you know, physically,

24:49Bill Simmons:athletically, competitively, he has everything. There's just, it's really hard for him to create his own offense. He could do it. It never feels great. It's very similar to where Iguodala was in those Philly years and even that one Denver year where it's like, he can do it. It's probably not a great sign for your team if he's the one doing it. And he's so much better if he's kind of over here. So they got to figure that out. And I don't know how they figure it out with the roster they have. I think the mid-ranger is coming along. I felt more confident in the series than I had before. And I really think he is the guy that would have benefited most from the idea of what Emmanuel Quickly was supposed to be for this team.

25:29sort of a good shooting, like half point guard, half spot up guy, doesn't need the ball, but can work with it, can run pick and rolls both ways with Scottie and just sort of loosen the defense up in ways that a guy like Shed can't do. And we just like, haven't seen quite enough of that combination over the last, you know, two seasons to, to really see what it could be. But Scottie left a lot of guys this year. Like, like he, he left a lot of guys behind him in the NBA player rankings like Bankaro. It's not close right now. Well, maybe it's close, but he left guys like that. He might make all NBA and it wouldn't be illegitimate.

26:07He had a great year. Tough as shit in the playoffs. He was ready for all of it. Played super hard.

26:12Bill Simmons:I'm going to thought bubble a trade that I would love them to do and you're probably going to jerk backwards and then be upset and maybe go deep in the thought for like five seconds. Brandon Ingram for Kevin Durant.

26:29okay so if I'm the Rockets why am I doing that I'm getting off of Kevin Durant wow

26:36Bill Simmons:just just I'm just moving on just a lot of baggage I'm just gonna get out of that one money's about the same and Durant gets to probably wouldn't be psyched about going to the team that their fans cheered when he uh when he tore his achilles during the finals um i don't know if he'd be super pumped about that one but you could you could work with him i i don't love the ingram fit in houston with the other pieces that they have i'd rather try to trade durant and aim a little differently um but how many teams are actually really think gonna talk themselves into being the latest team that potentially could become unhappy just by sheer coincidence that Kevin Durant showed up and then things became unhappy teams would talk he's still Kevin Durant he's going to make an all NBA team this year did you vote him all NBA I sure did so I mean there you go uh he will he's got just next year and then a player option which is interesting um i think i think some good teams would would kick the tires and give houston stuff that makes more sense uh dim brandinger but i will say i don't know if you read the athletic uh what now they tell us story about the rockets yesterday did you catch that i loved it well i mean but it wasn't there was nothing in it there was particularly revelatory i just love when they happen because i think we've all sort of made the calls and made the rounds and had the meetings of like, okay, so no one is really denying that this was actually Kevin Durant on the texts and burners and like it, and they had some lines in there, like sources say it was a big issue within the organization.

28:23And but yeah, it was. And yeah, no one on the record, off the record, privately, publicly has come out and said, no, no, it was actually wasn't Kevin Durant, which I don't know what else to conclude from that other than it seems like it was Kevin Durant.

28:39Bill Simmons:it's too bad. We'll save the rest of it for our deep dive this summer. I mean, do you disagree? I, nobody has come out and denied it. Um, all evidence suggests that it is, it seemed to have had a before and after impact on the team. And, um, it seems like it was him. And they had also, there was also lines in the story that were, were like the whole team came together and agreed to just like squash it, keep it in house. We're not talking about it. Like the whole thing in the athletic story, which I've also heard similar, like meetings took place, was just like, it was a huge issue. Whatever it was, it was a big issue.

29:22Bill Simmons:Taking a break for the pod, continuing to go here on Netflix. So we know all the series. And Lakers, Oklahoma City, you basically can't even bet on Oklahoma City for the series. It's like you have to risk$3 ,000 to win a dollar. Um, the, the odds for the series though, a sweep is plus one 25 on FanDuel and OKC four to one is plus one 75. And then the odds get progressively wonkier. Um, we just had two massive upsets last round with the Lakers upside in the Rockets and the Sixers upset in the Celtics that from a money line standpoint, we're two of the biggest upsets we've had in the last 15 years.

30:06Bill Simmons:I do not think this would be the case. Is there any sort of case you could make that doesn't involve Luka comes back and immediately goes nuts? And I don't even know how they would win two games. I mean, Luka comes back, plus Jalen Williams remains out, would have been a roadmap towards an interesting series. Yeah. It doesn't seem like... I mean, the latest updates on Luka is he's still a bit away. and I just don't know that even with even if JW who's I mean when's the last time they played at this point a week ago if they had a week off now well I mean their practices are probably more competitive than first round was you know I just don't see a roadmap for the Lakers without Luka to really make it a competitive series there'll be some competitive games they'll slow it down and play their old man basketball and like whatever but But, you know, you're still asking a lot of Marcus Martin, Rui Hachimura, and Jake Laravia, and guys that are just like the Thunder have just better guys than that.

31:11Bill Simmons:Tough series for LeBron. Coming off a really fun series for him and, you know, being the best guy in a playoff series at age 41, all that stuff. And now you have the OKC pitbulls being unleashed on you. Well, it's like the father time. Father time is like the whole metaphor is just this series. Father time versus LeBron. Here's team father time, like a bunch of guys who are 25 and younger and awesome at basketball. You are 41 and just have at it. Yeah, you're laughing at father time, LeBron. Enjoy it for the next two weeks. Biggest playoff series upsets. The biggest one in the last 30 plus years was that Nuggets Sonics one.

31:50Bill Simmons:The Nuggets were plus 1 ,400. But then we had Cavs Pacers last year. Pacers were plus 425. five and then uh that's number two well that that recently okay no number two was uh we believe 12 oh sure yeah and then 2012 bulls sixers the sixers were nine to one but rose got hurt at the end of game one that they were winning and then uh there's there's a bubble one in here and uh Celtics Sixers, 8-1. Bucks Heat from 23. Celtics Knicks is on here from 25. The Knicks were plus 550 for some reason. So, yeah, I don't think there's a lot to discuss with this one. It does, with that, we talked about it briefly in part one about Edwards coming back from Minnesota.

32:44Bill Simmons:Anything intrigue you about Minnesota other than the obvious, which is that they're a bunch of badasses who are unafraid of everybody. There's some Gobert, Wemby. Edwards maybe convincing himself he's the best player in the series. Some of those Spurs young guys maybe getting a little tight. What's the roadmap here? The roadmap is just underestimate the Turnbulls at your own peril. They've proven it over and over again. Whatever happens in the regular season, cool, they go up, they go down, they play up to the competition and down to it. They're a really good playoff team. They're down one key guy.

33:18And we got to see how Io looks and how Ant looks. They were down a lot of guys by the end of that series. But they bring a lot to the table in any matchup. They're big, they're strong, they're tough, they're going to defend. And there's a lot of interesting subplots to this series, starting with Ant. And the Ant-Steph-Castle matchup is just going to be hellacious. Steph will get the assignment on him, presumably, for a lot of the series.

33:42Bill Simmons:I'm going to say nobody under 12 courtside for this series, just to be safe. somebody brought a baby to one of the Laker games. There's like a four month old baby courtside. I just feel like that's, you know, you have to, you should have to really answer to some sort of parent court for that. And I was, I did spend some time last week watching some Spurs wolves, just little matchups just to see like who guards Wemby, how do they do that? And there was just guys have been injured off and on the entire, we've barely gotten to see the real teams play against each other, but Gobert did guard Wemby for the most part when Gobert was healthy and Wemby was healthy and Steph did Guardiante for the most part and there's just a lot of look Spurs are better Spurs have home court they're healthier they'll probably win but I think Minnesota can make it a long series and I think they could win the series Wemby shooting threes and actually making them versus what Joker did last round would be one way to mess with Gobert a little bit yeah always zombie Mike Conley can it keep going sure does zombie that bait him.

34:46Bill Simmons:How long are the effects? I mean, he's... Just give me 12 minutes. 12 good minutes, Mike. 12 good minutes. That was unbelievable. I thought he was washed up two years ago. Minnesota to win in seven is 15-1. Minnesota to win in six is 13-1. Spurs sweep two to one. Spurs sweep and then Spurs in five plus 195, which I think would be the smart pick. So, gentlemen sweep is the favorite. Yeah. Maybe Minnesota wins three. I'm going to give Minnesota at least another game. I'm going to dig in a little bit more tomorrow. I'm going to dig in a little bit more tomorrow, watch a little more, do a little more research.

35:23But my inclination is to not underestimate the Wolves.

35:27Bill Simmons:They've certainly proven it. And they've certainly proven that they've taken the nobody believes in us NFL mentality. Chris Finch, after the win, was not shy about saying, hey, they wanted us. Did that whole thing. I loved it. I loved it. I mean, those two teams legitimately hate each other, and it's awesome. I just want one... It needs to happen once, where Ant's got a bit of a runway, and Wemby's the last line of defense, and Ant says, I'm going for it. And I don't know what will happen. There could be just... The rim could break. The backboard could break. Fans could be injured. I don't know, but I want to see it.

36:09Bill Simmons:It's Superman 2. Superman's flying into one of those guys, in the air and there's... Yeah, a puff of smoke. Do you want to guess what the Fandu line is for Pistons Cavs for the series? Because it's out. Who do you think is favored? I think it's... I think the Cavs are favored by a very small amount. The Pistons are favored by a very small amount. Okay. By a few small beers. Minus 122. A few small beers. Cavs in 7 is 6-1. Pistons in 7 is 4-1 Cavs in 6 is plus 340 I would probably go exact games over the series betting in this really tough one honestly, this is probably a stay away as a series bet we can't stay away tomorrow I know, I think we're both leaning slightly toward the Cavs but I certainly wouldn't bet my life on either one of these I'm going to do more of my homework tomorrow I didn't do my homework yet because I wasn't going to do double the homework in the series.

37:14Cavs, Raptors just took forever. Pistons, Magic took forever.

37:17Bill Simmons:So I got to do all my homework tomorrow. And then Philly Knicks. Knicks minus 260 over Philly. Philly's plus 215 as underdogs. And then if you want Knicks in seven, which would be great, that's plus 380. Sixers in seven is eight to one, and Sixers in six is plus 550. and if you wanted to go nuts you could bet the Sixers sweep at 25 to 1 that's a ballsy bet plus 550 yeah um that's going to be the best of the four series unless we get ant really looking like ant again um but i think nicks all the storylines with this nicks Sixers series real animosity with the nicks and the fans toward and bead for multiple incidents from previous years.

38:08Bill Simmons:The Maxi versus Brunson kind of each side not being able to stop the other. They're probably not even going to guard each other. The Townsend Bede that rekindled this weekend. I had forgotten about the tweets from 2019. What else? And then OG and Anobi being the best player in the world. There's a lot of different storylines we have going. What else do you like? I had forgotten about the Cat and Bede stuff from all those years ago. So that's very exciting, and I'm glad that everyone has done their job in dredging it back up for added animosity. Mitchell Robinson and Bede stuff is well known. I think it's a big Mikael Bridges series.

38:46Like, you know, good finish to the Hawks series in the last game. Found his equilibrium a little bit on offense. He's going to get, I would guess he'll get the maxi assignment from the jump. He's been their primary guy. It's a really tough assignment for the Knicks. They don't have a great option. I mean, not that many people do, but, you know, Ananobi's tried it. Hart's tried it. They tend to trend bigger defensively and not smaller and quicker. And Bridges, it's like, you know, everyone's going to laugh at that trade forever. As Brian Windhorst, our friend, always says, if you win a championship, every trade's good.

39:19Every trade's an A+. Every trade's fine. And so, like, here's a series that's kind of tailor-made for you to, you don't have to score 22 points. You don't have to run as many pick and rolls as you did in Brooklyn. That guy, fine. be Phoenix. Be Phoenix Mikael Bridges and play the best defense you've played as a Knick and get us 14 points a game and we're all going to be happy.

39:39Bill Simmons:My guess is they use Bridges to do the 94 feet thing on Maxie and then bring some Josh Harden for that and then Alvarado for five minutes a half and just putting bodies on him the entire court at all times. It's not always going to work. He's going to be faster than everybody. He's going to get to the basket but I think that's what you're going to have to do. You have to approach it as, we got to cut the head off on this one on this team. He's the head. We got to cut it off. Alvarado and Embiid are going to have a moment at some point in the season where Alvarado is just going to be like annoying him.

40:10Embiid's going to be like, what is this thing down here that's annoying me? I don't like it. And Jose Alvarado is going to get all offended by it. That's going to happen.

40:18Bill Simmons:The Embiid flopping at MSG is going to be a point of viewing. They've already conditioned to really hate it. I know the Celtics fans were not big fans. And then you have the Towns piece of it too, where you could see a couple double flops. You could see Towns recoiling in horror as Embiid is flopping the other way, and it's like a flop-off. Almost like an eight mile when we had the rap battles. Every team's got a flopper. Okay, there's floppers everywhere. Jalen Brunson has not been averse to the occasional head snap flop either. He's another one, you're right. He coming around a screen could go, that could be another flop-off.

40:58Yeah, I mean, it's and the crowd reactions will be awesome. And every player will act as if they definitely didn't flop. And I just want people to start using the flop sign more often because I think it's really fun. Let's bust it out. I love I loved Embiid. Talking shit to the fans in Boston during the game, telling them to be quiet. It was like a kind of it was a new level of bravado for him because it was like could have gone badly. If you blow the game, that ends up looking badly and he was fine with it.

41:26Bill Simmons:And I like to say he's always done it, though. Like even in 2018, he was doing it. We were like, dude, you just got in the league. What are you doing? But yeah, he loves it. It gets him going. And I love that he told Philly fans, don't sell your tickets. Get all the tickets. We can't have these Knicks fans coming down on Amtrak overpaying for our tickets. We don't want it to sound like Madison Square Garden. He laid down the gauntlet for the Sixers fans who have been waiting, waiting for this team. So let's do it. Who is this a more painful series loss for? I would say the Knicks, like for the fan bases.

41:56Bill Simmons:this is like if I'm the Knicks right now if I'm a Knicks fan the seas have parted over the last week Detroit looks incredibly vulnerable so does Cleveland the Celtics are out you had this whole Tatum revenge thing lurking that's gone you have this Philly team that you've already had a lot of success with and there's just a clear road map now like this is the year right this is the best chance I think they're ever going to have in the East to win this year right now next four weeks it's it's amazing how it's turned from um hawks series is not going well we got to fire the coach we like where's the honest trade this summer what's the move to now like oh we're the east is broken right for us the more painful series loss is definitely the knicks as painful as it would be for philly and their fans to get a taste of this and then have the rug pulled out in the same round where the rug is always pulled out for them i think to get that those three games against that team, the Celtics, and to vanquish them the way they did and to just get a glimpse of what this team could be.

43:00If they continue to play well and lose to the Knicks, I still think it feels like a fun season with some hope for next season for the Sixers.

43:08Bill Simmons:Yeah, we got to see Embiid play meaningful basketball again. Baxter became a guy. We clearly have something pretty special on Edgecombe. We'll see how far it goes. And we resuscitated Paul George. and we eliminated the number two seed Boston Celtics, our ancient, ancient rival for the first time in a long, long time. Yeah, first time since 82. In pretty heartbreaking fashion for them. You've got to take some joy out of that if you're Philly. Philly's plus 650 to win the conference. The Knicks are plus 145. What's interesting about that is I kind of think whoever wins this series goes to the finals because I think if the Sixers win the series, That will mean that what we just saw for two and a half games was actually real, for real.

43:56Bill Simmons:And then they ran through the Knicks. And, you know, from a talent standpoint, they're top four if everybody's healthy. And Paul George is playing like that. And Embiid is fine. Like, you'd probably put that against any other top four. I still think the Knicks are going to win. I would pick the Knicks. But listen, man, the Sixers, if they're going to play like they played the last two and a half games, It's a hard team to play. No question. I will also pick the Knicks. I would lean Knicks in seven right now. I'm going to do more work on it tomorrow. But I think Cleveland to Detroit should feel exactly the same way.

44:31They should have the same attitude of like, oh, this is open for us. I know that they haven't, you know, an eighth seed took Detroit to distance. An undermanned Raptors team took Cleveland to distance. But every matchup is different. Every matchup is going to feel different. and whoever wins that series should not be afraid of the Sixers. Can they stay healthy this whole time? The Knicks. I mean, Detroit played the Knicks to the hilt last year in the first round. I think both those teams should feel that way too. I don't know.

45:03Bill Simmons:Detroit going to the death's door, basically, in that Orlando series and having to take every single ounce of everything just to win in seven, I don't think it was an awesome sign for them. And then Cleveland against Toronto, losing two guys. Even just not finishing Toronto in six, not a great sign for them either. I got to do a couple more what do you do just quick. Okay. What do you do if you're Atlanta and you have Jalen Johnson at 120 for four, Daniels at 100 for four, Okongwa at 16 and 17, Alexander Walker at 14 and 15. You're stuck with Kispert at 13 and 13. and you got Risha Shea at 13 next year.

45:46Bill Simmons:Kaminga is a free agent. CJ is a free agent. And you have that New Orleans first rounder that might be in the top four. You'll be at the lottery a week from now. You could create up to 29 million in cap space and get creative. So you could do something like we discussed in part one where you could trade Daniels in the pick and try to get a franchise guy or an all-NBA guy or an all-star, whether it's Jalen, Giannis, whoever. Or you could just say, hey, I like what we have. Let's re-sign McCollum. Let's try to lowball Kaminga and maybe bring him back for one more year to see what we have. And let's try to nail this pick and look at the late 2020s for when we make a run.

46:25Bill Simmons:What would you do? Yeah, the first thing I got to do is see what happens in the lottery and who I can get and where I'm picking. My inclination is almost regardless of that, given the state of the East in general, I mean, we'll see what the Pacers are just sort of sitting over here as the forgotten man in the East that's going to come back, you know, hopefully full health. Not if they get a top four pick, they will not be forgotten. Well, that's true too. They'll be adding Halliburton, Zubats and one of the four picks in a generational draft. Or trading it for who God knows what, but probably knowing Indiana and the way they generally operate, just making the pick and saying, we're thrilled to do this.

47:05My inclination, if I were the Hawks, would be, let me let this marinate a little bit before I do anything. too aggressive depending on where i pick and i like a con glue i like alexander walker i think daniels is an interesting player i'm obviously not trading jill and johnson risa shea is the one we just got to figure out um how do we revive this and if not what do we do but let's let's see where the lottery balls fall first i i don't i mean what's the aggressive move for them what's what's the other what's the the big move i mean if i i would poke around on things like just you know it's it's not just yannis or stan pat right like there's a bunch of middle ground stuff like are there i'd have to go through the rosters are there guys we could pick off you know that are a little bit better than one of the guys we have now is there like a durant like is that interesting to us at all um we mentioned jalen brown before that's a little high priced but just is are there smaller moves i can do around the fringes because i don't you know and mccollum i think would like to go back there and there's got to be a number that works He was so good for them.

48:10Bill Simmons:Yeah, I would say they probably need some size and a point guard who could learn under the tutelage of returning free agent C.J. McCollum. And there's a ton of point guards in this draft and they're going to end up with somebody good. So we agree. Wouldn't do much there. Portland's a little more interesting. Denny is at$13 million next season and$12 million the year after that, which is just probably the best contract in the entire league. I would even have that over the Pritchard who's making like$7 million a year. They have Holiday at$34 and$37. They have Green at$34 and$36. They have Sharp,$90 for$4.

48:46Bill Simmons:And Kamara,$81 for$4. And they have Dame,$13 and$14. And they have Scoot and Klingin still on rookie deals. So they're going to be a tax team next year. And maybe even bumping toward the second tax that they spend. They have all their picks from$27 to$30. They have a Milwaukee first swap. they get the best one out of Boston and Milwaukee in 29 and another Milwaukee swap in 30 so they have stuff to trade and they have an owner who is already getting stories written about him every day for how cheap he is so I don't know what to make of this and he doesn't like it at first I heard he doesn't care who likes it?

49:23who likes being called cheap? the first wave of news was he doesn't care he reads it all and he doesn't care and then he's being defended by the GM Joe Cronin is talking about it's just not accurate what what the about what he's portrayed look the stories have not been refuted like the guys were in the freaking lobby because they couldn't get late checkouts like that's the thing that happened

49:42Bill Simmons:um he does care he paid for subs the other day for everybody everybody got a roast beef sub i don't like roast beef um i'll take a turkey turkey over roast beef turkey roast beef and turkey and he even had a couple tunas um yeah i don't you know there's this yannis noise that's out there i started the noise a month ago and then then found out that yannis didn't want to go to the west coast i don't yannis wants to go to the east coast i don't really know i don't know i don't i'm struggling to wrap my brain around that one yeah i don't like they're a weird team because does anyone want jeremy grant's contract um even even drew holiday was spectacular when he was healthy this year the the player option in 27 28 is pretty pricey um i got to figure out scoot scoots extension eligible it's it feels i mean every team like portland is just facing the same dilemma is like yeah we're pretty good we we're a young rising team with a lot of assets um we don't have anyone on our team nearly as good as anyone that oklahoma city and san antonio has at the top of their roster how are we going to ever compete with those two teams and how do we get there and I don't know I don't know what the answer is for Portland um other than I I do like that they're building around this defense defense defense identity and like we're at least going to make things hard for everybody we play um someone else I like where they are I don't really understand the Dame contract at all why they did it why they paid him for a year not to play that was weird um but for the most part I'm fine with the Drew contract it's two years yeah he's good next year and then the final year is in expiring.

51:22Bill Simmons:That's fine. Grant's a little tougher. So we don't think this is like a let's go nuts and get somebody awesome team. This could be another Durant destination, by the way. I mean, I think that Durant price point might not be that high if he does get traded. And I don't know that he is going to get traded. Does Houston have to trade him? Well, they were next on my what do you do? KD at 44 and 46. Shengun at 35, 37, 39, and Jabara's at 23, 22, 24. They have FVV for 25 next year. Finney Smith, 39 for the next three. Adams for two more and double figures. Adams and Capella are basically 20 and 18 the next two years.

52:03Bill Simmons:Then they have a Thompson extension and they have Reed Shepard. But the thing with them, they have some really nice picks. They're going to have that swap with Brooklyn next year. They're going to have the Phoenix first. They have their own first and they have a Phoenix Dallas swap in 29. The Brooklyn one, I think we have to start really thinking about Brooklyn as a team that might do some dramatic stuff this summer. Because anytime we've seen a team with cap space in the position of this pick could come back to haunt us, they usually get a little more aggressive heading into that season, right?

52:40Bill Simmons:Which made me wonder, like, could they be a destination for pick somebody who had, had an ugly playoff exit. I think absolutely they could. I mean, they've been rumored in the honest, like on the fringes of the honest thing and everyone has been like, well, I mean, including me, have said, why would Giannis go there? Who is he playing with? And I don't know the answer to that question other than the Nets probably think if we get Giannis, we can get somebody else. We have infinite flexibility, tons of picks. You know, when Sean Marks first got there and they were just in the, in so deep in the hole of picks owed to Boston and other places, they didn't do the thing where they got aggressive because they didn't control their pick and we have to save face a little bit.

53:17They did the opposite and just ate it as a sunk cost. And I wonder if they have the appetite to do that again. I suspect that you will be right and they'll try to be a little bit more aggressive than that. Because that pick, it's a big asset and they've got the Phoenix stuff coming as well. Yeah, the Rockets, you know, there's an argument to be made that they should just sit tight and see what Van Vliet looks like, see what the team looks like with Van Vliet, Durant, Steven Adams, keep the pick space, what it is and just take another shot at it next year.

53:46Bill Simmons:or you can even go further and maybe go, you know what? We are contenders and we're not going to really have a chance here with San Antonio and Oklahoma city and even Minnesota. Maybe we should zag the other way. We have these picks coming. We got a bunch of young players reduce the expectations. Hey, does anybody want Van Vliet on expiring? Does anybody want, you know, this pretty decent Adams contract, even though he gets hurt every year. Is anyone interested in Durant? Just zag. I think that's a, I mean, the three paths they have to me are Stan Pat, trade Durant, and or Van Vliet in deals that sort of just reset your timeline a little bit around the young guys or find the home run superstar.

54:27We're all in now. We trade Sengun plus picks plus whatever for Giannis or whoever else becomes available. And I think that whoever else becomes available thing is a big wild card in that because other people, depending on what happens in the playoffs, will become, I mean, we've already seen, We talked about it in part one, Denver basically letting the world know everybody but Jokic, like our phones are open. So that means Jamal Murray, who else would be? I mean, I don't think Denver wants to trade Jamal Murray, but the fact that his name is omitted from the do not ask list, according to Shams, is interesting.

55:00And but to be clear, Shams didn't say Jamal Murray's name. He just said anybody but Jokic, which obviously includes Jamal Murray. So there'll be other guys like that, depending on how the playoffs go.

55:11Bill Simmons:Yeah, there's... You could get like a Durant, Van Vliet's expiring, and some draft stuff for Murray. On paper, it makes sense. I don't know why either team would want to trade with each other. West. And if I'm trading Murray, I probably want two pieces back. I can't remember if I said this in part one, but I was meaning to say this to you. If I'm Denver, I'm doing nothing. You didn't say that. Oh, I didn't? No. All right. I'll say it more emphatically. I'm doing nothing. I just had bad luck in a playoff series. I had a weird year. I had Joker playing the best basketball of his entire career, getting hurt, and then Gordon getting hurt twice.

55:55Bill Simmons:And this Minnesota thing just was one of those weird things that happens in the playoffs every once in a while. Only one team can win the title. A lot of teams panic after they don't win the title. I just wouldn't panic with what I have. I'd want to be a little more careful. I'd really want to re-sign Peyton Watson. And even if I have to trade Cam Johnson to make that happen, I don't know why they can't just re-sign Peyton Watson and actually spend some fucking money. Kroenke's are wealthier than just about anybody. Just spend the fucking money. You have Jokic on your team. But I'm bringing back Watson.

56:28Bill Simmons:I'm bringing back all my guys. I got Cam Johnson as an expiring. And I have a little flexibility. And let's play it out and see where we are in January. That's got to be the move. I wouldn't panic. well that was my counter was going to be number one um i don't i just we talked about this already i just think you have to assume aaron gordon is going to be hit or miss availability wise for the rest of his career 13th year of his career this is who he is now and so i don't i've got to build my team with that in mind and counter number two is peyton watson i think they have to bring him back and that's going to cost you it's going to cost you money which we agree it would be great if they just paid and they've ducked the apron and stuff before.

57:06I don't think that's likely. And so they're going to have to pay something to get off of Christian Brown or Cam Johnson. And they already owe some significant draft assets out the door to Oklahoma City of all teams in two separate drafts.

57:19Bill Simmons:So it'll be another reason why they're going to be trying to stay really good. Christian Brown, I don't really understand. I thought the extension was too pricey, but it was also in the range of all these other guys that he was at least in the ballpark of that were getting between low 20s and 25 26 i don't understand why he was so bad like how did he just lose the ability to play offense and also why did he stop being a shutdown guy on defense i don't know that he was ever a shutdown guy on defense well he was their shutdown guy though you know what i mean like he was the guy they would put on the other team's best perimeter guy.

57:58Bill Simmons:And it wasn't glaringly bad like it was this year. He couldn't guard anybody in that series. I think he's just, because of the way their team is built and how Gordon has aged and been injured, I think he's just tasked with a role that he's not quite up to. He's a good defensive player, not a great one. And it all comes down 30 % on threes. Like 30 % on threes and he missed half the season. Like that's, and I do think the Watson thing, although he shot it really well from three this year, especially from the corners, the two of them playing together, how viable is that going to be? Because that's your best defensive lineup is the two of them plus Gordon.

58:34They barely played those three together all season. But to me, Watson, if there's a number that makes sense for all parties, and I don't know if Peyton Watson is actually itching to go to a place where he would have a bigger role, like the Lakers are going to be rumored until the end of time, but I want that guy back on my team.

58:55Bill Simmons:And they still are in the driver's seat with it. Yeah. You can match any offer. Yeah. And we, I don't remember the last time somebody just stole a restricted free agent. It was some crazy offer. You have to go back to like the Jeremy Lynn Omer Asich era to, to the creativity. I just, I Peyton Watson and Gordon together as injuries, not as impactful from a talent standpoint as Edwards and Dasumu and DiCicenzo. You could just stop at Edwards, but yeah, include the other guys too. Obviously not as, but what was interesting about the series was Denver couldn't replace what Gordon gave them at all.

59:40Bill Simmons:Minnesota was somehow able to patch together, you know, they lost the three-point shooting completely by losing all those guys, but they were somehow able to patch together the defense and the rim attack with all the backups for those guys. Denver couldn't replace anything Gordon did. And that was what sunk them, you know? So to your point, like, yeah, you can't count on them anymore, but I also don't know who else they could bring in that could do 75 % of what he does. You just have to hope that Watson, although a much different player stylistically on both ends of the floor, just gives you enough pop and enough size to mimic it.

1:00:16and that Gordon still has enough in the tank for a big playoff run here and there. But yeah, the Minnesota thing, man, you can't give them enough credit. They got the big IO game. Nas Reed was really good. Conley was good. Shannon, massive in the elimination game. They just, you know, got contributions from everyone. There was almost a Jalen Clark-Jokic near fight in that game, which is, you know,

1:00:36Bill Simmons:it is interesting that... The hockey mentality, start a fight with the other team's best player. Hope he fights back. It's part that, but it is... every time it's going bad for Denver, there seems to be a Jokic event in which he's a participant in. Sometimes not the initiator, but sometimes, yes, the initiator. But I don't really know what to make of that. What did you think of the 48-hour celebration that Jokic got bounced in round one? Was that, who was celebrating? A lot of people. A lot of people were psyched that all of the Jokic stuff just had a giant fork slammed into it. I thought it was interesting.

1:01:18I mean, he had a bad series. He just, like, Gobert ate his lunch for a lot of the series. His jumper wasn't there. His defense wasn't good enough. It was a bad series for him. It was his first real postseason clunker against a team that has their number at this point.

1:01:33Bill Simmons:The three-point shooting was bad. I went back and I looked at his... I went back and I looked at his, his, just his stats in 23 when they won, when they went 16 and four and, and basically rolled through everybody. His stats were unbelievable that year. That was like one, he was like 31, 14 and 10 and he shot like 47 % from three. And you know, it's, you'd look at that and you're like, Like, oh, his stats are still pretty good this year, but compared to where he was, they weren't. So the question for me is at age 31, has he moved into a slightly different echelon of himself as a playoff guy? If the three-point shooting is just not going to be reliable anymore?

1:02:22I'm not going there. I think he still has plenty of time left in his prime. And the three-pointer...

1:02:27Bill Simmons:I mean, that's how I feel, but it's a question now. The three-pointer is a fickle animal, right? And so let's say they sneak out that round. maybe he has a hot round the next round. I don't worry too much about that. It was eye-opening that he didn't have the same level of answers for Gobert that he's had previously in any, like in the post on the pick and roll. He just didn't have rhythm to his game against Gobert and that we had just not seen him run into a matchup like that before. When teams don't think he could make the three-pointer, I think it changes how they play him, what they want him to do, and I just think Minnesota was super comfortable with it.

1:03:05Bill Simmons:One thing did happen from that series I forgot to tell you I had to drop Joker in my pyramid two spots What does that mean? Where is he? There's this center right at the end of level the top level, the Pantheon there's four centers clustered together and I've been moving them around I'm the only one who sees the list that's not like I'm announcing it but it's Hakeem and Shaq and Joker and Moses. I think he's right there with Moses. And I think you could, I have Joker 14, Moses 15. You could talk me into flipping it. But I think Hakeem and Shaq have to be above him at this point. Unless he can rally back with some sort of other playoff thing.

1:03:54Bill Simmons:Like the only one finals appearance, one title, even Moses got to two finals. It's hard. It's hard. You're too tight back-to-back for Hakeem. When you're in the top 15, you start to be measured by different, crazy, highest possible level things. Hakeem in 95 wins the back-to-back title and just beats every team he beats is awesome. Every center he goes against is awesome. He just destroys everybody. And Joker probably needs one of those, I think, to move up a little bit higher. Well, there's a lot of time left, but I'll tell you. We're all winners, though. I'll tell you, those top two teams in the West are just, like, there's always injuries and things go sideways and windows are never open as long as you think they're going to be open and finances and all that.

1:04:43But it's hard to see a world where the Thunder and the Spurs are not pretty continuously awesome for, let's just say, five years. Like, we don't have to go too crazy. We don't have to say 10 years, 15 years, whatever. But like, barring a catastrophic injury, which could happen, we don't want it to, but it just seems unlikely that they are going to be anything but like 58 plus win teams for the next five years. Well, that's why for the Nuggets, the question is, I'm just studying that 22 Warriors title run.

1:05:16Bill Simmons:Okay, that was a team that seemed like their window closed and then it didn't. And they had this transcendent player. a lot of weird shit happened in the league that year. There were a couple injuries. There was a couple upsets. And all of a sudden, they just swooped in and took it. Could we keep this nucleus together and hang around and hope for a similar situation? The answer would be us. So that's why I don't think you can panic. I think you got to keep it together. Before we go, you want to tell us about your cameo on an Apple TV show? Sure. I was on Your Friends and Neighbors, season two, episode five.

1:05:53A show I watch. I'll talk about it a little more this week, but it was delightful. So it's up now.

1:06:00Bill Simmons:People can watch you in a scene. People can watch me and OGN and Obi together in a scene at a party. It's a house party scene. People who watch the show know one of the characters is a retired NBA star. Yeah. and so he's hosting a party and they decided to populate it with random nba people and one of the producers shout out jamie um is just a longtime fan listener and was like let's write zach lowe a role and get him in here and uh i spent a day in a mansion in long island last year have been like somebody who got murdered at the beginning of the episode like just you could have been a dead body lying in your own blood it's like there was a there We had a little viewing party at our house on Friday.

1:06:41And I don't know if you saw the episode. I haven't seen it yet. Even by the standards of the show, there's a lot of racy material in this. And they're like, you couldn't have been like the random Amanda Peet love interest for one episode. No, I could not. That was not going to be my role on this one.

1:07:02Bill Simmons:Not negotiate that one with the wife. All right. Well, congrats. It was fun. The whole cast was awesome. They were so fun. it was super fun they made it easy because you know when you're a fish out of water like that it's just it's a little like do i belong here is anyone like what do i do and they were all super nice well congratulations now i can introduce you as your friends and neighbors co-star zach low yeah i'm an actor now i'm an actor acting you sign up for sag i guess i could you get fees all that shit all right uh zach low thanks for hanging out for the double pod we're probably not always going to do this, but with two Game 7s that we thought would be pretty good.

1:07:39Bill Simmons:Neither of them were. It's fine. This round two should be fun. I'm looking forward to next Sixers. Thanks to Gahal and Eduardo as well. Thanks to everybody behind the scenes at The Ringer. Thanks to Netflix. There's something about Mary coming tomorrow on the Rewatchables and then Zach's back on Tuesday on his podcast breaking down a whole bunch of stuff. Good to see you, buddy. Have a good night. Always fun.

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