Russell Westbrook’s One-of-One Career With Kirk Goldsberry, Plus College Football and Coaches With Van Lathan and Chris Ryan

23:09Bill Simmons:He's honestly one of the great athletes. I feel like what sport would he not have been awesome at? He reminds me of Iverson. If he had played football, would he have been an incredible linebacker or a safety? What would he have been? One of my descriptions was this was Bo Jackson playing basketball. Totally. Like that's how crazy of an athlete he was. And like, you think about Bo and Monday night football doing these crazy 90 yard runs and then breaking the bat over his knee and baseball. That's what I, it felt like the Bo knows version of basketball, uh, just a complete spectacle. And again, to give him his flowers, 18 years playing that hard.

23:47So regularly too, in a league that has Kawhi, Paul George, Joel Embiid, like this guy was reliably going to be there in his prime as a producing player.

23:58Bill Simmons:Even played hard in the All-Star Game. This episode is brought to you by EA Sports Madden NFL 27. I was playing Madden when you guys weren't even born yet. Take your love for the game further. This franchise is powered by the all-new Persona Engine. That sounds interesting. So it's your league to run. Hmm. Build it the way you want with a reactive league, shaping every decision you'll have to make. And if you want the full experience, there's the kickoff bundle. Please don't tell my son. Fine. Tell him, which has both college football, 27 and Madden NFL, 27 standard editions from campus legend to NFL superstar.

24:35Bill Simmons:Make your rise with the kickoff bundle. Learn more at EA.com rated E for everyone with mild lyrics, users interact and in-game purchases includes random items, conditions and restrictions apply scan QR code for more info. All right. Five things you need to know about Westbrook. Number one, I wrote this in 2012. I'll be interested to see if we would add it. Or 2016, 17, I wrote this. In my lifetime, I have seen only four other basketball players turn one-on-three fast breaks into layups whenever they wanted. Young Barkley, Young Derrick Rose, Jordan, and LeBron. Now Russ would be the fifth. Is there anybody since I wrote that in the last decade who would go in that list?

25:20Bill Simmons:I was thinking about it. I'm sure we're going to miss somebody, but maybe like prime Giannis who would just the one on threes. That's good. All right. Let's add Giannis. Truck and finish over somebody, but yeah, that's a, that's a pretty great list. Yeah. Um, Barkley was always my favorite. I mean, I'll defend Barkley to death, but that was always the best thing about seeing him in person. When you get the rebound, it'd be like, I'm just going. Um, Russ would be like, I'm fucking going. You better get out of my way or you're taking a knee in your chest. So that's one second thing you need to know if you do the two-man championship belt through the course of NBA history which I've done I think him and KD have it in 2014 um because I think LeBron and Wade together 11 12 13 they win the title and in 14 I think those that combo together was the best two um 2015 Durant got hurt 2016 it's it's Curry and anybody basically Curry and Clay pick anyone with Curry but they did have the belt there and we're going to talk about that playoffs more.

26:23Bill Simmons:Um, peak guards last 20 years, just talking about peaks, Curry, Kobe, Wade, SGA, Harden. There's five that were better than Russ CP three Nash Brunson. Do you consider Luca guard? Oh yeah, definitely. That's nine. Russ is probably 10th I don't think I missed anyone I went through but he the peak Russ I think was one of the 10 best guards of the last 20 years but I think he's 10th it's crazy all nine of those guys I think could have been the best guy on a title team or close right and I'm not sure Russ could have Russ never won a playoff series after KD left as the best guy so I think that's a fair list I think that's fair 2016 uh 2011 in the 16 playoffs third thing you need to know 76 playoff games they won 10 series in oklahoma city they made the finals during that stretch 25.6 uh six rebounds eight assists 29 from three um and the bad ones were they blew the 3-1 lead to golden state he the clay game wasn't great down the stretch with him but Durant I almost feel like Durant gets a little more blame on at least the last two games 2012 finals game 5 4 for 20 field goal and then that series I felt like was after Miami won game 4 I think we knew that was probably over and then 2014 game 6 Western Conference finals against the Spurs 8 for 23-7 turnovers.

28:07Bill Simmons:So there were a couple moments where he could have changed the legacy a little bit and did not. But I'm going to slightly hold against him, not too much. One of the notes on the 2012 finals game four you wrote about in that column. There's a jump ball at the end. The Thunder are down three. There's 14 seconds left. Chalmers gets the ball. The shot clock's at five. They just need to stop him, and then they'll have a chance to tie. And in that moment, Russ brain fart, fouls Chalmers unnecessarily, but sends him to the line that ices the game. So it's still his best like big playoff performance, in my opinion, but it also ends in like sort of a quintessential frustrating Westbrook outcome where he makes like a brain fart at the end and in crunch time in 2012 game four.

28:54Bill Simmons:And that's what I built the column around, which was he was already the polar as a guy of the series because how he played in game three. Game 4 had put together the most electric 47 minutes possible and then made the brain fart and it was the complete experience and it's like this guy is clearly a really important basketball player and you kind of saw everything in the same game everywhere this career could go it all happened 2011 they beat Denver and Memphis in playoff series in game 70 in a triple-double against Memphis they lost to Dallas 2012 swept Dallas beat the Lakers beat the Spurs 2013 was when he got hurt and we're going to go into that later 2014 beat Memphis in 7 he had a 27-10-16 in the game 7 in the running for best one beat the Clippers 4-2 and we'll talk about game 5 in a second loss to the Spurs 4-2 and then in 2016 beat Dallas beat San Antonio in 6 25-7-11 for the series.

29:57Bill Simmons:That was where Tony Parker was officially too old. It was Tim's last game. And Tim got old. Aldridge was there, but it was kind of between the two eras. And then they lost to Golden State. He was 7-21 in Game 7. So that was the run. That's the closest he's come. The fifth thing you need to know, he was the most dissected Grantland Ringer era player of the last 15 years. I remember Fantasy wrote fantasy wrote a, what was this piece called against Russ? Yeah, dude, that was one of them. Think pieces. We had, everyone had their one or two, anyone who wrote basketball for us had at least one thing piece.

30:36Bill Simmons:You started, you started working for a Grantland, um, second half of our Grantland run, which was only four years, but as the advanced metrics and the shot charts was coming and was there a better shot chart than Russ? No, he was one of these guys was like, wait a second. When you look at it this way, uh, this guy's not actually that good at scoring the basketball. His shot charts were always just eye-popping. That era's shot chart, sort of the anti-All-Stars were always him and Josh Smith. And I had to make a lot of those charts. Monte Ellis was another one. Monte Ellis, yes, good call. What's going on with this guy?

31:10Bill Simmons:Yeah, there was some shot charters. A lot of the post, some of the post-up centers never fared that well. No. But yeah, that first era, the shot charts are like, wow, that guy misses everything when he takes a three on the left. And, you know, and eventually the players, I think, got smarter and smarter to how to look at that stuff. All right. The eternal argument. This is a new category for Book of Basketball. The 2017 MVP season, whether he deserved it or not. Zach Lowe and I have been talking about this for 10 years. Three people. I wrote a huge column at the end of the year. I picked Harden.

31:45Bill Simmons:Zach picked Kawhi. Russ ended up winning. That's right. Right. And one basically because of this awesome Denver game he had that everybody was on the fence. And then he played his best possible game on a Sunday and it really kind of kicked it off. But where did you stand on the three? Do you remember? I was a San Antonio Spurs and a very big Kawhi Leonard advocate as an analyst, though. I mean, Harden, looking back 10 years ago, like that was just an incredible. the D 'Antoni Harden era was just an earth shattering analytics sort of extravaganza. So I think Harden, I'd be on team Harden in this one as much as I love the Spurs and Kawhi.

32:25Bill Simmons:I was really torn and you can feel it in the stuff I wrote back then and said on pods. Like, um, I hated his, I hated what OKC was doing basketball wise. I hated it. Again, it stands against everything I like. Right. It was one guy doing everything, everybody else kind of standing around, hoping that they'd have a chance to shoot or have a play run for them. But for the most part, we're just supposed to, you know, be these supporting actors in the Russell Westbrook one-man show. And I hated it, but I also loved how hard he played. And it was like hard not to get swept up in it. Like I wasn't against the MVP vote.

33:03Bill Simmons:I wrote a couple of things I wrote. Statistically, Westbrook is the biggest ball hog of all time. he's taken the delicate framework of a successful basketball team five players working together sharing the ball making each other better and he's throwing it out the window he's fueling a thunder team that's the complete opposite of the 77 blazers 86 celtics 05 sons and 15 warriors he treats his teammates like stage prop um and then i wrote okc's best night-to-night chance meant serving the nba's version of in and outs menu you can only order russell westbrook they serve Westbrook burgers with fries, sodas, and milkshakes.

33:39Bill Simmons:Get the Westbrook burger, lettuce wrapped, animal style. Just know you're getting Westbrook. Don't ask for anything else. He took 370 more shots than anyone else that season. He missed 14 shots a game. He shattered the usage rate record, almost 42%, and then had a 57.3 % assistant percentage rate, which was the highest ever. And then I wrote at the end, I loved watching Westbrook this season. I loved it. I I never thought I'd see a big O triple-double sequel again and blah, blah, blah. It was bizarre. Yeah, I don't know if we'll see that 42 % usage rate ever eclipsed again, Bill. And the other thing that I think is fascinating is Harden was sort of doing a version of this in Houston.

34:20And I look at these two guys as like biblical brothers, like almost just Cain and Abel. They grew up together in Los Angeles. I think Westbrook almost goes to Arizona State, ends up at UCLA as an unheralded freshman. And then ends up becoming a top pick in the NBA. Had the chip on his shoulder the whole time. But yeah, both of them were sort of spamming over and over again, the same kind of basketball. But in D 'Antoni Harden world, it was efficient. So the analytics community was okay with it. And then in OKC, it was just like, there were a lot of nine of 24 nights, 11 of 32 from the field. And the passing wasn't always there.

35:02but it was crazy to watch and I don't think we'll ever see a player with a usage rate of 42 or higher. I just can't see that ever happening again. They somehow won 47 games.

35:14Bill Simmons:They had the 15th ranked offense. Houston had the second ranked offense that year. Harden was doing a lot of the same, you know, had the ball all the time stuff but did not have close to the same assist percentage and you could argue it was making guys better And that was the thing as you look back. I even wrote this at the time. Why wasn't Steven Adams as devastating an OKC as the Capella-Nanay-Harold trio was for Houston? Why wasn't Oladipo better on a much better team? Why the dumpy or Naila Soba? Why such a wasted rookie year for DeMontis Sabonis? Everyone acts like Russ is playing with the Washington Generals.

35:56Bill Simmons:He has two top three lottery picks and three other lottery picks in the playing rotation. and his canter was there as well. And now as the years pass, like they make the trade for Paul George and Sabonis and Oladipo immediately took off the moment they got away from Russ. So I don't think history has judged it that awesome. But, you know, Harden just had way more success playing the same style. I think now, wouldn't you say that if that MVP season happened in 2026, I don't think there's any way Russ wins. No, that's right. And that's, again, his career coincides with this analytical awakening, this perimeter-style revolution that starts with Harden and Curry, just finding efficiency in cool new ways.

36:42So you're exactly right. I think all the stuff that Jalen Brown was going through, that would have been times 10. People would have been like the number two offense in the league. The discourse has just changed. It's updated for better or for worse. Efficiency is king now.

36:58Bill Simmons:Although you could argue it hasn't changed because the Celtics had the number two offense and everyone used advanced analytics against Jalen Brown. I think with Houston versus OKC in 17, the fact that Houston's offense was so good that year, I think would have meant more if we under, it was almost like we were the OJ jurors not totally understanding the DNA evidence yet. Yeah. Now looking back, when I looked at the per 100 possession, all that stuff, and I was like, Houston's offense was just clearly better, but his supporting cast was, I think was fairly even to... Ryan Anderson, Eric Gordon.

37:32Yeah. I forget if it was Capella or Montrezl Harrell.

37:35Bill Simmons:It was Capella and Harrell. Yeah. He got some of those big men paid. He did. So you can look at the contracts downstream of the Harden experience versus downstream of the Westbrook experience and see that James actually got these dudes paid. But yeah, that Rockets team, because we played them in the playoffs that year in San Antonio, they were terrifying. Remember, that's the series that Harden disappeared in the game back in Houston. Manu blocked James Harden from the back in the game in San Antonio. But that team was terrifying. And I believe they beat OKC in the first round of that playoffs in 2017, too.

38:13They did. And Harden outplayed Westbrook for ultimate, like, now I wish we could vote for the MVP now sort of situation.

38:21Bill Simmons:It was a classic. Sometimes that happens.

38:26Bill Simmons:I have a set defining game section. I knew what I had in my, I was interested though. I'm going to work. This section is going to be brought to you by chat GPT, the Bill Simmons podcast AI sponsor and chat GPT work. Help me figure this out. I asked them, what was Russell Westbrook's defining game? What do you think the answer was? for me it should be game six of the 2016 nba western conference finals the clay game okay yeah um chat gpt disagreed its response if you mean the single game that best defines russell westbrook's career i'd pick april 9th 2017 thunder versus nuggets the line 50 points 16 rebounds 10 assists and a 36 foot buzzer beating three to win 106 105 now that was a pretty good answer because that was the game that won him the mvp we were all on the fence that game happened on a sunday i think it was on national tv and russ was in 50 16 and 10 and a 36 footer to win it i think it was home and after that game everyone's like all right i give up and he grabbed a lot of votes with that game um it's interesting that that was a regular season game that that they suggested yeah not a plan i don't know are we doing sliding doors later we're Doing a whole bunch of them.

39:47Yeah.

39:47Bill Simmons:Anyway, thanks to chat GPT work, helping you work even harder. Put chat GPT to work on your most ambitious ideas and projects. Try chat GPT work today available to plus and pro plans. Now we're going to what's age the best. I mentioned that 26, six.

40:06Like he, his career, he averaged 26 and six.

40:11Bill Simmons:700 plus games. Only nine guys have done that. LeBron, Jordan, Harden, Bird, Jokic, Drexler, Giannis, Westbrook, and Rick Barry. And then I mentioned that other stat too, the 20K points, 6K rebounds, 6K assists. Yeah. So I have that. And then the other would stage the best, the counting stats of age, great for him. Young OKC and romanticizing that team. I know our friend Jonathan Abrams has a new book that he wrote that's coming out pretty soon about that OKC era. and that team, like I just, I look back at the 2012 finals and that 11 playoffs and just watching these guys that we all liked and not knowing what was going to be ahead of them.

40:55Bill Simmons:And then of course it didn't turn out the way we all thought for a variety of reasons. But I was going back and watching some of the clips of them in the 2012 finals when they beat the Lakers in 2011 and just how athletic and awesome that team was. I was like, I think that's aged pretty nicely now. It's like the one-if team of that decade. Oh, for sure. I still have a picture in my office of the three of those guys together because I can't believe it's real. Like the three MVPs, all babies, and that league together again, like the Spurs sort of right now feel kind of like that. But that is really rare.

41:29For me, it is he, after he was, I think, announcing his retirement, he claimed he was the best rebounding guard of all time. And I think he's got a claim to that, Bill. And you're the historian here, but I did a little research and the player tracking areas far and away has the most rebounds of anybody who plays the guard position. James Harden is up there. Josh Hart is up there. Luka Doncic, if he's a guard.

41:57Bill Simmons:Oscar has to be up there. Yeah. So I think that's going to age really well. I think, you know, rebounds, they're not as sexy. People overlook them all the time analytically. but as a defending guard, if you can come in and grab the board and get that stop for your team, and he had that as well as anybody. I always liked that about Kobe, who was, you know, like a five or six a game rebounder normally, but in a big game, he'd go get them. Right. You know, and the Westbrook was so quick to the ball at all times. I think, you know, there's definitely some padded stat stuff with the MVP season and they would be, I mean, this is stuff that happened.

42:38Bill Simmons:I don't think it's a conspiracy. Like Adams would box his guy out so Russ could come in and get foul shot rebounds. And I think OKC was kind of understood if there's any foul shot rebound, it goes to Russ and little stuff like that. But just day to day, week to week, game to game, season to season. Like he was just so quick, just grabbing boards. I think I think he probably is. Yeah. Yeah. That's incredible. I think that's a good way to put it. that and then the what did we say six guys ever one on three fast breaks by themselves i think or is two things all right biggest what if sliding doors moment it's crazy because i have three we didn't talk about this how many do you have i have one solid one spoiled it earlier and we can frame it either as the 2016 lat those two games together or the clay game but after okay so fast forward we We know Durant goes to Golden State after Cleveland beats Golden State.

43:41If OKC holds on, they're up eight points going to the fourth quarter of game six. They're up three points with a few minutes left in game six. Obviously, Clay does his thing. If they can just win that game, Bill Simmons, they win the Western Conference. They would have ended Tim Duncan's career in the second round. they would have beaten that Golden State team in the Western Finals. And then I would ask you, do you think they would have beaten that Cleveland team? I think they would have been favorites. They would have so much confidence coming out of those two wins. And that for me is the clear sliding doors moment.

44:19We already said he played one finals. That would have been a second one. I think they would have at least had a puncher's chance of winning it. Maybe even been the favorites. Does Durant leave even if they make the finals and beat Golden State? So for me, it's that.

44:35Bill Simmons:I had three and that was my number one, almost like in hockey. It was my number one star of the game. I went to game five when they were up 3-1 in the series and they just sucked. And Durant was bad. Like those three Durant games were not good. And I think, I don't know. I still don't know what happened on those last three, but, um, and the crowd got into it and they beat them. but I still felt like they were going to go back to OKC and finish it because it was clear Curry wasn't 100%. And OKC had, it was very similar in so many different ways to the Pats in 07 with the streak and the pressure week to week of that streak.

45:16Bill Simmons:I just felt the Warriors seemed like worn out. Playoffs, finals the year before they win the title. That's a 100-game run. Then they start the next season. Steve Kerr misses the first two months. then you have the 25 game winning streak, which became a real thing. And then they're going for 73 wins the whole time. And that are 70 wins. They get, what was the bulls were? The bulls were 72 and 10. Yeah. So they need to get 73 and they're going for that when they should have been. And I just thought it took them out and I thought they were going back to okay. Seeing it was done. Clay goes nuts. And they still had a chance to win.

45:53Bill Simmons:And it's, we did a podcast about it in the book of basketball feed a while ago. It's an amazing, amazing rewatch. You're watching history change over the course of 20 minutes. Yeah, it's an incredible rewatch. First of all, the guys all look like babies, which is crazy. But then you look at the play-by-play, and it is not kind to Russell Westbrook down the stretch. It's exactly. Two to three turnovers in the definitive two-minute stretch of the game. He blows a layup. He's forcing it. Durant, by the way, at your earlier point, took some bad shots early in the clock. and then you go to Steve Kerr's side of the court and these guys are poised.

46:31The ball is moving. It's finding open shooters. And it is. It was history defining. So for me, it's a clear number one. What are your other sliding doors moments though?

46:40Bill Simmons:Well, with that what if thing, if they do win, I don't know what happens to Durant if they lose the finals to Cleveland. Right. Because now it's like, all right, now I'm going to go to Golden State who I just beat. That feels weird. I guess it was weird that it went there after getting beat by them. Maybe he goes there anyway. If they win the finals, does he leave? He can't. You can't leave at that point. You're going to win the NBA title and then go? He probably would have been finals MVP. I would have guessed, right? How many times have we seen a finals MVP? I mean, Kawhi in Toronto, I guess, but that was a weird situation.

47:14So how many times do we see a finals MVP just be like, I'm out of here that summer?

47:19Bill Simmons:It would have been a great battle. Yeah, that's the number one. My number two was the Harden trade, obviously. I don't. Now, maybe the Harden trade plays out. We always romanticized it at Grantland. And, you know, it was one of the worst trades of all time. Maybe after two years, that team falls apart anyway. Right? And maybe Harden's just not happy being like, I'm not managing nobody. I should have my own team. And maybe that falls apart. But at least they could have traded him for more than they traded for him at the time. But that's, we talk about he never got back to the finals. That's one of the reasons.

47:53Bill Simmons:because the Harden trade, which still never made sense because it was a$4 million difference. Yeah, and you get Kevin Martin in there, and it's just, they're still really good. They were still a contender for years to come. But then what happens? James Harden becomes the best offensive player in the league, arguably, multiple seasons in a league that has Steph Curry in his prime. And that was, you traded him for Kevin Martin? Jeremy Lamb and the Adams pick. That ended up being the trade. But, like, you look at 13 and 14, And that leads to my third what if with Beverly taking out his knee in the playoff game, game two.

48:27Bill Simmons:They're playing Memphis. They had a real chance even after that trade of just winning the title that year anyway. If you go back and look at the records and the stats, both of those, KD and Russ were two of the best six or seven guys in the league that year. San Antonio had that 2012, it was such like a punch in the face that they, you know, and they kind of rallied back, but they weren't, I don't think anybody. thought they were the favorites to come out of the West. I think people were maybe thinking more like OKC or the Clips. The Warriors weren't ready yet. But Beverly, in one of the cheaper plays of the last 20 years.

49:06Yeah, awful.

49:06Bill Simmons:Really like just a shit play. And Hurts Westbrook and knocks them out. So, you know, they have that. They have 12. They have, you know, they didn't get... It's been swept under the rug. It was one of the last Stern era moments. but the officiating in the finals in the 2012 finals is a disgrace. It's like, I don't think they got a 50-50 call for five games. 2013, Beverly Hurts-Westbrook. Yeah. 2014, which we're going to get to in a second, was probably their best chance. And then the clay game, you know, it just never happens. It's hard to come out of the West. LeBron James, as he retreats back to the Eastern Conference, learned that over the last...

49:48Retreats. after the last eight years in LA. I mean, you have Popovich, Duncan, Ginobili in one corner. Then you have this Kerr, Steph Curry, Klay Thompson, Juggernaut. Obviously, the D 'Antoni stuff in Houston. It was really hard for that Thunder team to get even to the finals with these other Juggernauts in their way.

50:12Bill Simmons:What's the age of the worst? We mentioned a few of them already. I mean, one of them, He played with Durant for the first eight. They coincided for eight years, including Durant's MVP season and half of Durant's prime, basically. He played with James Harden in Houston when Harden was still one of the best offensive players in the league and had gotten very close a couple times. Played with LeBron and AD in the Lakers. He played with Paul George on the Thunder in 2018. and then in 2019. And then he played with Joker. He's played with some really good players. Yeah, that's true. One finals win ever is tough for somebody who's supposed to be in the top 60.

50:55And Zach Levine, that last year. Don't forget him. And Bradley Beal. He was Joe House rooted for him for a year. That counts. That was actually one of the cool Westbrook seasons, right? So what I would say is 2010s, he's an icon. He's like an eight, nine time all-star in the 2010s. that year in Houston, people forget the pandemic comes and just destroys America and the whole world of basketball, obviously. And he had figured it out with D 'Antoni that we're playing the small ball thing in early 2020. Go look at Westbrook's numbers. He was actually a very efficient small ball center and D 'Antoni had found out how to use him.

51:32He'd stopped taking threes and jumpers and just figured this out.

51:35Bill Simmons:Third team all NBA, Kirk. Yeah, that weird pandemic. Remember that happened? Um, no, because it was the pandemic. Yeah. I barely remember this either. As, as I've said over and over again, I don't remember anything from 2020, but, um, they played the Lakers in the playoffs and guess what wasn't working was Russell Westbrook as the small ball center against AD and LeBron when AD was AD playing about as well as he's ever played. And then they had other guys to bring in and all of a sudden that strategy was not working the same way. Um, it, it was a gimmick. I think they felt like they had taken the Chris Paul piece as far as it could go.

52:17Bill Simmons:I'll still never understand Daryl making that trade. That's a great point. I still want to know who made that trade. That's one of the craziest trades ever. More what's age the worst. We mentioned the advanced stats. Did you have more advanced stats stuff for him? Well, I have that for what's age the worst. For me as the shot chart guy, it's clearly the shooting behavior, the shooting numbers. is a few stats here. Jump off the page, Bill. In the player tracking era, he has taken the fourth most shots of everybody in the last 13 season. He has the lowest scoring efficiency of the top 50. He's taken the 24th most threes in that player tracking area.

52:58Again, that's 13 seasons. He has the lowest three-point percentage in the entire top 50 of that group. for me the most frustrating thing for him and the thing that's aged the worst is his stubborn insistence on this jump shot that it should have never been a big part of his game he was the best attack card of his era at times yeah and when he would rise up as somebody who game planned against him when he would rise up for a jumper I can tell you everybody in the organization on the other side was like, thank you. Thank you for doing that because I don't want you to get anywhere near the paint or the cup and get fouled.

53:36Please take that jump shot.

53:38Bill Simmons:That was something I wrote about. One of the rest pieces I wrote about the smart teams versus the dumb teams, how they defended them. And the smart teams would basically wall them off. They'd go under on every screen. They would push him toward shooting between 20 and 25 feet. And they were delighted when he did it. right and then on fast breaks they made sure they got back so just make sure you if they if we miss we have to get back or he's just going all the way down and the dumber teams didn't think the same way and he would get a lot of easy ones but the the smart teams were like please shoot i mean i had for a what's the worst his three-point shooting he played 135 career playoff games what do you think he shot from three career playoffs it's huge well i know he's a career Let me ask you this.

54:23Do you think he was under 30 or over 30 %? Is this the Mendoza line for the modern NBA? The modern NBA Mendoza line? Under over 30%. I'll say under because, yeah, there's a lot of bad shooting games in those playoffs.

54:36Bill Simmons:It's perfect. He was 29.9%. That's the Mendoza line. He missed 70 % of his threes. And if you were rooting for him or betting against him and he was taking a three, you never thought it was going in and you were happy that he did it. But here's the thing, dude. One layer on that. If he only shot good shots in rhythm behind the arc, it would have been 33, 34. It would have been passable. Right, it was the heat check threes, right. Won a game. It's like, what are you doing, dude? Like, what are you doing? There's 16 on the shot clock. Like, what are you doing? Yeah. So that's, for me, what age the worst is always going to be that kind of thing.

55:15Bill Simmons:Yeah, balls to the wall. Russ from 2017 to 2026. won two playoff series last nine, 2019 Rockets, 2025 Nuggets were his wins. And he was 19, seven and six during that strike. It's almost like the second part of his career. 38 % field goal. He played for OKC, Houston, Washington, both LA teams, Denver and Sacramento over a seven year span. He turned into Phil Necro there at the end. Everyone thought, everyone got excited for him for two months. And then, But this was role player. Russ was never going to be a thing that made sense. No, the Denver year was sort of intriguing. I think that was the last stand of can we see him off the ball and Joker making him look good.

56:01But then again, the advanced stuff, just Denver was a much better team when he was nowhere near the basketball court that year. 24, 25.

56:10Bill Simmons:And then I mentioned from a what stage the worst. OKC just not wanting to double down on a great point. We're just like, sorry. Yeah. Like the, like, so how many guys can you think of off the top of your head that would come back for this upcoming season? Cause it seemed like he did not want to retire until he didn't have a choice. There's so many of these guys that would come back for this one year in that beloved uniform and just, you know, sit at the end of the bench and, and, and help the younger guys. But that was not an option. I think that's a great point. Yeah, if you're a bench player, you're basically, you're cooking at a restaurant once a week, making a good meal, but not cooking every day.

56:50Bill Simmons:And if you're an awesome chef, you can cook every day and carry a restaurant. And Russ was somewhere between an awesome chef and a diner chef. And it's like, you'd want to go to the Russ Diner, right? Every night, like the milkshakes are really good. I probably shouldn't have this patty belt. Yeah, the servers might be a little rude sometimes. You're not winning the James Beard Award with the rush shot though. Too early, too late, or just right is the next category. So what would you go for here? I was surprised by my answer. I have an obvious answer here. I think he's clearly too late. I think he would have gotten away with a lot of the stuff that like, I'm sorry, the shot chart and the analysts and all this stuff was, it was the worst for him.

57:34Like you think of Antoine Walker or Allen Iverson or even Kobe to some extent, like they got away with some things that would not have flown just 10 years later. And that's when Russell, I think he got caught in the game, began a little smarter analytically, a little more thorough. and so for me if he had done this in the 80s 90s or even the the first part of the the 2000s he

57:57Bill Simmons:would have been incredible and beloved 2008 draft for him yeah i went 12 years too late i think if he was in the kobe draft and he got to play during like when the when the scoring was really down when we had less good players yes that's right like jerry stackhouse averaged 30 a game one year. Like during that era, I think he would have been unbelievable. We would have been like, oh my God. That's such a great point. Plus you weren't expected to shoot threes, right? No. So he wouldn't have been able, he wouldn't have been even, the culture of the three-point shot didn't even exist. We were not picking apart those Iverson seasons when he had, you know, the big usage rate and was shooting 38 % every playoff series.

58:38Bill Simmons:We didn't care. No, the pre-moneyball NBA, he would have been, he would have been a huge all-star scoring champion. This guy would have been great. He got to go see Westbrook. It might not have won, but I think it would have escaped some of that sort of scrutiny, that nasty nerdy scrutiny that, that I think will always be part of the West experience. This episode is brought to you by state farm, ask 10 football fans what to do on fourth down. You'll get 10 opinions and somehow every fan watching from their couch is absolutely certain they would have made the right call. That's because every situation is different and state farm believes insurance should be too.

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59:47Bill Simmons:YouTube TV required. Terms, restrictions, and embargoes apply. Commercial use excluded. No refunds. This episode is brought to you by ServiceNow. Look, I already have my dream job. I run the ringer. Argue with Chris Ryan, AKCR. But even dream jobs have not-so-dreamy parts. You know, the work that slows you down never seems to go away. That's where ServiceNow's AI specialists come in. They're like digital teammates So actually do the job, start to finish. No handoffs, no homework. That means more time for the work that actually matters, which for me is talking about whether the 86 Celtics can beat the 96 Bulls, which they could.

1:00:23Bill Simmons:To learn how to put AI to work for people, visit servicenow.com. Sorry, guys. That leads to Nerd Corner. I sent this to you already. I wrote in that 2017 piece, there's still time to do this. If we created a stat called the Westbrook and just added usage rate and assistant percentage together, assist percentage. Just those two things, assist rate, assist percentage, usage rate together. Westbrook in the MVP season was a 99. His usage rate was 41.7, and his assist percentage was an all-time record. It was like 57.2. To put that in perspective, the next guy in the list was 2017 Harden at 84.7. 2018 Russ was 83.9 09 Chris Paul 82 2016 Russ 81.2 2018 Harden 81.2 and then 80 and down is a little more realistic.

1:01:24Bill Simmons:I love the fact that he almost got to 100 so if you made the Westbrook a stat like he literally peaks at the highest version of the stat with a 99 the fact that that's 15 % higher than anyone who's ever played basketball is fucking bonkers to me. Yeah. And I think I texted you back. This is ball hog over replacement or something. It's just like, this is the most heliocentric shout out Seth part now for, for that term. It's when, when, when, uh, when the hero ball got slightly more, uh, educated, it became heliocentric basketball. And that Westbrook season is the epitome of that spam this over and over and over again.

1:02:03And to your point, what I want to play with him. Heard you say this before. I feel like I'm a prop. I feel like I'm standing around. oh but every once in a while here comes a brilliant pass the corner and you better make the three because that's the only touch you're getting for the next 13 minutes and that's the problem

1:02:17Bill Simmons:like Joker was an 80.7 this last season but was doing too much and by the way that team didn't make didn't make round three of the playoffs like when you play this way Trey Young was an 80.1 in 2022 when you're that reliant on one guy there's just no success for it if you're trying to actually win four straight playoff rounds over and over again. It does not work. The Brunson-Westbrook comparison is really interesting to me just because of contemporary sort of recency bias with Brunson. But his usage in the playoffs, Bill, was 32 or 33, I forget. And it felt like he was doing everything for the Knicks down the stretch in all of the important games.

1:02:56For Russ to be a full 10 points above that for an entire season is diabolical work.

1:03:03Bill Simmons:Yeah, if you go to, I'm on Brunson's basketball reference right now. He was in the playoffs, 32.6%. And his assist percentage was 27.7%. Yeah. And it was a good basketball team. And OG and an OB won a game for them. And when it mattered and, you know, towns was great and bridges and heart were part of it. To your point, I think it's like, it's always going to be this beautiful sport where the guys come together and become something greater than the sum of the individual parts. And when you're playing that heliocentric style, It feels like that cohesion never really materializes. Yeah, Shea, what was Shea?

1:03:43Bill Simmons:Shea is probably the closest to getting away with this, but even he was 32 % usage, 35.8 assists in the playoffs. And the year they won the title was 32.9 and 30.6. So I think it's around there that seems like the right area. You go back and you look at Bird and Magic in the 80s and their usage rate is like 24. You know, it just was inconceivable somebody would have the ball that much. And it's one of the things. That's crazy. We've overreacted. Like what happens in baseball with these walks and home runs and no other outcome. What's he one-on-one is the next question. That's, yeah. And this is where I come back to pro Westbrook.

1:04:29Like, again, this is an absurd business where we watch other men play basketball. and he was my favorite player to just watch. It wasn't my favorite player analytically by any means. Yeah, it's just like if you were at a game for two hours with your friends, like this is one of the five guys on earth that you'd want to watch do this thing. And he, like, you brought it up a few times, man. This guy was on the floor. He was in the crowd. He was attacking the stanchion before the game. Ultimately, his legacy is part just entertainer. And in a league where you don't always get that with some of the other star players.

1:05:07So I think he's one of one. And I'll always remember that, like just the entertaining aspect of watching Westbrook play hoops.

1:05:13Bill Simmons:Yeah, and seeing him in person, the way he carried himself, which was like Iverson carried himself that way. KG. There's only a couple of guys that just you're like, man, the game hasn't even started yet. That guy's fucking crazy. Guy looks like he's about to go to war. It would be like game 52 against a 20 and 30 Clipper team. Some things I wrote about Westbrook. He's basically Jim Brown 50 years later with basketball shorts on. There was a column where I wrote, I just compared him to Teen Wolf and a poison movie character who uses so much of her brain that she becomes a robot and turns invisible.

1:05:48Bill Simmons:That was another column. I wrote the homicidally competitive legacy baton since 1990. MJ, Iverson, Garnett, Kobe, then Westbrook. nobody else in the NBA gives even half as much of a shit as Russ does like you actually fear for his safety I called him a tirelessly energetic freak maniac lunatic who just chugged 120 ounces of coffee and then I wrote only Westbrook makes you feel like you're watching a WWE star sprint into a crowded Royal Rumble ring and immediately start clearing it out he needs his own entrance music these are just this is the Russ at Westbrook legacy as a fucking lunatic. And it was great.

1:06:28Bill Simmons:I loved it. I have no notes on that one. That's perfectly said. Unintentional comedy wrinkle was the way he dealt with the media was my answer for this. Basically didn't like any media members would look through them and pass them. If you've ever been on the other end of Russell Westbrook, noticing you, realizing who you were and then just kind of looking through your forehead. It's quite an experience. And yet was like, just had no time for it. And yet all the people that played for him, except for a select few, were all like, this guy's the greatest guy on the planet. I fucking love Russell Westbrook.

1:07:05Bill Simmons:Like you could see when he retired, um, was just an awesome teammate, had no time for anybody else, but his media interactions, I think were the funniest thing about him. Oh, I had to interview him once for a Grantland 2014, 15 near the end. And man, he did not want to be around me. Uh, and it was, you know, he was, and I respected him for it, but I, there I was in Oklahoma. Um, and it was tough. The other unintentional comedy thing I think that bears mentioning is I'm not sure. This is not my department. Maybe Wesley Morris, who probably did a think piece on this exact thing for us back in the day, some of the fashion stuff before a game.

1:07:43Bill Simmons:I feel like he, he, he was the Bill Russell of, of bringing it to another era, the, the walk into the arena. And some of that shit looked as good as anything I've ever seen in my life. But then again, nobody cares about my taste, Bill Simmons. But some of them, I'm not sure, are going to age very well and dare I say, might be funny for other people to look at. Oh, he was always pushing the envelope and you'd be like, what the, what is he wearing? But half the time it was cool. Half the time it was just, you didn't know what was going on. But yeah. And he could pull that shit off more than like Kyle Kuzma who tried.

1:08:19He had swagger walking through those tunnels in ways that everybody has to respect. He was one of the coolest men in America there in the 2010s. And respect for trying. But man, that's tough to pull off some of those looks.

1:08:32Bill Simmons:He had that swagger in college. I was really into that draft. And Westbrook was my sleeper in that whole draft. I don't say that as like, oh, I had Westbrook. But he really was like, I was like, I love this guy. I don't know what he is, but he's going to be an awesome pro. but I thought he was gonna be like the 17th pick in the draft like I thought it was gonna be one of those post lottery yeah oh my god you get this guy like he's gonna be like a cross like Tony Allen on defense but like a great I never saw what was gonna happen and then during the course of basically March Madness through the draft he started going up and he kept going up and he got all the way to fourth and it was and I was like I love this guy I don't think he should go fourth.

1:09:15Bill Simmons:But part of it was the swagger and the athleticism because he had it that one year UCLA. And again, drafted by one of the smartest draft personnel guys, the league scene in a long time and Sam Presti. But I would say Kevin Love always struck me with this story. Like when they were both at UCLA, I think Kevin Love was a freshman and Russ was a sophomore and Kevin was this hot shit like all American and Russell was like a local. Yeah. Barely made UCLA because Jordan Farmard left for the 2006 draft. So they had a slot. And when he got to the first practice, Kevin Love was like, Oh my God, I'm not even the best player on this team.

1:09:54And that at that time was like this unknown kid from LA, this three-star recruit. Uh, and, and Kevin was just like, Holy shit, this guy is great. Uh, and then, yeah, a year later, he's the, um, the number four pick in the draft. I think Kevin Love was number one. Was that the same draft?

1:10:10Bill Simmons:Yeah, it was OJ Mayo, Kevin Love. I think Kevin Love might have gone fifth. Oh, did he go fifth? Or third. It was, yeah, it was one that wasn't Kevin Love in that draft? He was. Yeah, he just looked like Dick in the Box era guy at that time. Kevin Love. The chin strap. That's all I remember. Kevin Love was another one. Now, he was, I don't know how many more pounds than he ended up being as a pro. Yeah, Kevin Love was fifth. OJ Mayo, third. Michael Beasley second. I mean, Miami passed on Russell Westbrook and Kevin Love in that draft. But Kevin Love always had the rebounding. That guy is a guaranteed awesome rebounder in the pros.

1:10:50Bill Simmons:I don't care what else happens. And then Westbrook had the athleticism. We were like, worst case scenario, that guy's going to be one of the best athletes in every game he plays. Alright, we're wrapping up with defining playoff moment. We mentioned the 2012 Game 4 Finals. To me, in a good way, it's the 2014 Clippers OKC game five, the Chris Paul collapse. Series tied at two. It's in OKC. OKC is down one on one 88 with four minutes left. I would highly encourage people to go and watch this on YouTube again. They're down seven with 49 seconds left. Call time out. Katie hits a crazy three over Big Baby.

1:11:32Bill Simmons:Clippers come down. For some reason, Jamal Crawford's like, I got this. And misses a shot. OKC gets it. Long pass down to Durant. Now it's a two-point game. And by the way, that was Westbrook with the rebound. Football pass to Durant. Two-point game. Chris Paul gets the ball, bringing it in. And Westbrook goes in to do whatever. And Westbrook, Chris Paul's trying to get the foul. But I don't think the biggest fuck-up of his career. And Russ ends up stealing the ball. Goes out of bounds, but it's OKC ball. And then Chris Paul fouls Russ on the three. He makes all three free throws. And then Chris Paul misses to lose the game.

1:12:13Bill Simmons:But really clutch free throws, clutch steal, clutch pass rebound. But if you just watch that game, you're like, all right, there's a game. And then he flipped it. And that was kind of the Clippers never got that close again. Did not come up in Doc's Hall of Fame speech. I think if anyone brought that game up to him, he would have turned into jelly. jj raddick too yeah i think that that's it's interesting when i think of russell he's defined by this this incredible explosive frenetic energy yeah and when he was able to channel it bill in moments like that it was the coolest thing in the nba for a number of years but when he was unable to control it even in the form of his jump shot the power he would explode off the ground with i think was too much to have the touch that kevin durant had or stephan curry had he was just too explosive and i think that's what cost him a lot of times was his inability to control his own explosiveness yeah um whether it's mental explosiveness or physical but in that moment i thought he put it all together as a defender and just made the play of the game it was like a guy who only drove one way on the highway.

1:13:24Yeah.

1:13:25Bill Simmons:That was it. He was great if you want to go 88 to 100 miles an hour and try to get to one place to another. But then if you actually had to do a little more driving, it got a little dicey. Overrated, underrated, properly rated.

1:13:41How's he rated, Bill? You're the guy here. How is he rated?

1:13:46Bill Simmons:Honestly, this is the toughest one I think you could have. and one of the reasons I wanted to do this podcast. I think he's a whiff overrated, but I also think he might be a little underrated too because we have so many years now of the different stage of his career at Westbrook that kind of people forget now. I hate to do the hashtag people forget, but people do forget. NBA TV was running game four of the 2008 finals when the Celtics came back against the Lakers. Yeah. And Paul Pierce is just guarding Kobe that whole game. Paul Pierce could guard LeBron and Kobe and was in big games against those dudes and big series and beat those guys.

1:14:28Bill Simmons:Right. Yeah. And then years later, he has that quote where he's like, I was better. You know, I was right there with Dwayne Wade and people like, what? That's crazy. It's like, all right. It's actually, you know, I think Wade had a better career. I have him higher in the pyramid, but it's not insane to think Paul Pierce, all the stuff he could do and the way he got better in big games and all the different types of guys he could guard and how malleable he was with teammates. Like, Paul Pierce was really good, but people just kind of forgot. And I wonder if that's happened with Westbrook a little bit.

1:14:57I was watching that too. I mean, speak to August. There's nothing on. Right, nothing on. That comeback, and I watched Paul, like, attack the teeth of the defense on one side and then guard Kobe on the other side and well-deserved finals MVP in 2008 for the truth there. Look, as the analytics guy, I think the classic response here is he's overrated. But I asked you where he's rated. I know we'll get to your pyramid ranking, but there are two Russell Westbrooks. There is the moment he gets traded from the Thunder, leaves the Thunder. The nine years before that, he is a perennial all-star. He's putting up crazy stats.

1:15:38They're always making deep runs in the playoffs. He won an MVP and two scoring championships and assist championship. If we're talking about that portion of this man's career, you know, maybe he's underrated because of what followed in the 2020s. He becomes this journeyman like it never works in Houston or really Washington, obviously Denver, Sacramento, Lakers, Clippers. There is that. And I think that is the exact right answer. but the Lakers thing

1:16:08Bill Simmons:really hurt him too with the not being able to fit in at all with AD and LeBron which I think LeBron shared some culpability in but it was just such a bad fit that instead of the 90-10 thing it felt like 50-50 and he's an LA kid and he needed that to work and if it had worked it would have been the perfect way and that's the last thing I had on him Jason Kidd was Russell Westbrook at one point and sort of aged gracefully into this okay, I'm Dirk's second banana here, or even third banana in some cases, and started to be able to shoot and changed his game. And if I would be hard on - It led to a title, by the way.

1:16:48Bill Simmons:And he became, he was probably the second best guy in that Mavs team. Yeah, so if Jay Kidd were the Westbrook in LA, I think he would have found a way to be like, all right, let me just figure out how to contribute here and get out of it. And there's a fair criticism of the second half of his career. He was, again, too defiant to sort of slide into that. tertiary or later role stage in his career. It's a great point. J-Kid's the perfect example. Also, J-Kid was good enough to lead a team to the finals, right? Yeah. Not quite get over. And you think like, all right, who was his second best teammate?

1:17:24Bill Simmons:It wasn't anybody better or worse than some of Russ's best stuff. So anyway, I have, and I have Cade Webb. I have him ahead of Westbrook. I have Westbrook in the pyramid. I have him 58. Um, so top 60, I have them just ahead of some like the busher and how Greer and Cunningham and Elvin Hayes, like these guys who were really good. I couldn't put them ahead of Nate Thurmond. Now everybody's listening. This is like, what the fuck's going on? Nate Thurmond? We're part of the podcast is this? Hey, I'm just hoping you don't ask me any Nate Thurmond questions. I have a lot of hot Nate Thurmond's like the lost great center of the sixties and seventies just got completely boned over on the all-NBAs because he's going against Wilt and Russell and Kareem and Willis Reed.

1:18:13Bill Simmons:It's like a disaster, but was really good. Clyde Drexler, I have slightly ahead of him. Wes Unseld, Gary Payton, Paul Pierce, and Patrick Ewing. These are at level two for me. Those are the last guys in level two. And I think Russ is right in that area and probably behind the last few I mentioned. but around 58. Some of the guards you mentioned, I could have quibbles with Peyton. And who was the other guard in that list? Clyde Drexler. Drexler, yeah. I think, I bet there's a bunch of people in OKC like now being like, what the hell are you talking about, dude? Like this is an MVP. He won the scoring champion.

1:18:51Bill Simmons:Clyde Drexler is second MVP in 92. Top five MVP twice. Second best guy on a champion team, right? We saw him in the second, he goes to the Rockets. They win the title. He's the second best guy. I don't know if Russ goes to the Akeem 95 Rockets. I don't know if... And then he was the best player in two finals runner's ups where he was the best guy. Plus Dream Team. And Dream Team. And Houston. Like, he was an incredible college player, too. And I don't know if that matters in the pyramid or not. For me, it's like the playoff... The playoff ceiling has to factor in with this. Yeah. Westbrook got to play with one of the best 20 to 25 guys ever in Durant and was only able to win one finals game with him.

1:19:31Bill Simmons:but he basically won the lottery with Durant. If you're picking any forward other than LeBron to play with for the last 20 years, you're probably picking Durant. So I think, you know, it's hard. We've had 80 years of players. Like you're one of the 60 best players ever. That's a real achievement, you know? But I do think the playoff success is where it falls apart a little. Anyway, Kurt Goldsberry, that was wonderful. Did you have anything else before we go? I know it's dead for NBA. Well, I'm working on this new idea. I need to run a PAYU. I think the age of player empowerment is dead. I think we are now referencing your previous podcast in the age of owner empowerment.

1:20:07And I wanted to test this idea out with you. Starting with players like Victor Weminyama taking less money. That is crazy. LeBron James, I think his decision in 2010 sort of starts player empowerment for some cases. And then going to Philly for$4 million. I think the second apron itself is proof that the owners really won this latest negotiation, the media deals, expansion, NBA Europe. But this is my take. I'm working on this piece for The Ringer. I wanted to get you in on it. Do you think it's fair to classify 2026 as the age of owner empowerment in the NBA?

1:20:51Bill Simmons:Are you saying owners have more power or they become more of a wild card? I think I'm saying - Because I think owners have the same power they've had. I think the difference is the intentions of an owner feels like it's starting to shift. Well, I think that's part of it. I feel like the teams are financial instruments now more than ever before. I think there were these heirloom investments, these community heirlooms that dudes would, And, you know, if you were a rich guy and you owned a basketball team 20 years ago, you would get made fun of. There's these great Mark Cuban quotes where he's like, I bought the Mavs in the late 90s at 200 some million dollars.

1:21:2815 years later, nobody would buy the New Orleans team for that same price. The valuations had stayed the same. And now we're at 12 and a half billion. And I think more and more of these people. So to answer your question, I think the intent of the owners has changed. this, I think the type of human being that's owning these teams has changed. And I think it's trickling all the way into the league. And that's sort of what I'm getting at with this concept.

1:21:56Bill Simmons:Yeah. It's weird. Cause it's not like owners wherever, you know, kind of the ideal, you don't want the ideal person for a basketball franchise. They would be hit or miss, right? You'd have some people that were jackasses or they got left the team. There are a couple other people like that really cared or rich people that felt like Mickey Harrison of Miami is a good example, right? That guy's rich, but also really loves owning the Miami heat and wants to be part of it. And Peter Holt was like this for, for the Spurs. Like there's, we've had some good ones. Dr. Buss was like that. Um, and I don't, I don't think that era is over.

1:22:34Bill Simmons:Even like the guy who bought the Celtics Chisholm, um, really grew up with the team, loves the team. He also, I think made a pretty good purchase because you could argue for whatever what they got. That looks great. So there's still a couple of people coming in that seem like they have good intentions. I don't, the part that's weird to me is if you're going to spend this much money on teams, you're going to want to make money back. You're not, you know, you're going to have to, you've spent so much, you can't then also lose money in the team, right? So the CBA is in their favor now, but ultimately they're just going to like the expansion is a good example.

1:23:15Bill Simmons:They're all going to go for it because it's an extra 500 million, a team, NBA Europe, WNBA expansion, any way they can carve the cat to have more carve the cat. Why did I say carve the cat? I don't know. I'm like the obsession lady. Any way they can carve the pie for more money, grow the pie, whatever, however you want to say it, uh, it feels like they are now everything is on the table. How do we make more money? That's all we care about. And that's, I think you're right. So I don't know if that's empowerment. It's more like there's a, there's a word. I don't know what the word is. It's, it's, it, it, it could, it, the word I want to use is corrosive.

1:23:56Yeah. It's a culture shift in sort of the identity of the league. And I think it's an allegory to what's happening in America to some extent, but we don't need to get into that. But as it relates to the economics of the NBA, I think it's a fascinating moment. And, you know, it explains a lot of the bigger trends, like Brunson taking less, Carl Anthony Towns, the second apron. Like, it trickles all the way down into the things that we do really care about as NBA fans. So I think it's interesting whether you're talking about the Portland Trailblazers or the LA Lakers. It seems like we're talking about owners a lot more than I would like to.

1:24:32Right. And I like basketball.

1:24:34Bill Simmons:The Portland one was concerning because he bought the team, but clearly just because he wanted to grab a team. Now, we've had this in the past, but it was always because it was a good deal. Like, Para bought the Grizzlies because it was like, wow, that's all you're asking? A-Rod and Lori bought the T-Wolves because Lentero was willing to sell it to them for$1.5 billion. They were smart enough to figure out how to structure it. But now we're getting into, like, what are the Bulls worth? Apparently, there's this guy who bought a piece of the Bulls who has, he's the one that if they sell the bulls and he has very similar to mark walter with the lakers if the bulls get sold he's got first dibs on it but you could argue the bulls are a 10 billion dollar team now and that's probably the next one people will be circling yeah when you have billions of dollars at stake like even the the guy you're the celtics guy is like oh i could i just bought this for six like i could sell this for 10 tomorrow like this is that's a crazy delta and the part that I don't even really fully understand because this is not my world, but the tax advantages you get makes all of them want to continue to park their money in teams because you can just write off all of these losses and do all this chicanery with the numbers to make it worth.

1:25:45Bill Simmons:And it helps out your whole portfolio. And that's how they look at it now. I guess I'll end with this. I liked when NBA discourse was about arguing about Russell Westbrook, as opposed to talking about the whims of the billionaire class. Yeah. Well, this Lakers thing's nuts. Like even since I did the stuff about it on my podcast the other day, we found so much more. Like it really feels like this is now veering toward, could this be in the Madoff area? Could this be in the, you know, Ivan Boski era? Is something like genuinely illegal happening? And was it happening this whole time? And I don't really understand that world.

1:26:21Bill Simmons:Katie Baker wrote a great piece about it. There's been some good coverage on it. But if it turns out that this guy, Mark Walter, was really playing a show game, basically. Yeah, taking your life insurance fund. What does that mean for the Dodgers? Yeah, basically stealing from people's grandparents to pay for sports teams. Anyway, kind of sobering way to end a really good podcast segment, Kirk Goldsberry. Thanks for having me on, Bill. We should mention, there's a big Austin extravaganza that I'm not going to be able to go to, but when is that in October? October 23rd. UT, Spurs, Sports Summit.

1:26:58Bill Simmons:A whole bunch of good stuff. Spurs are playing the Rockets, KD back on campus. Then we have Ole Miss playing UT, Manning Fest, and then we have F1. So we're going to get Brian Curtis and Van Lathan out here at least. It may be you, but you're going to the East Coast. Van Lathan's always available. Yeah, I can't, but we'll send some good ringer people. Good to see you, Kirk Goldsberry. Hope you're enjoying the summer. Thank you. We're going to take a break and come back with Van and Chris. This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. Whether you're racing to build the biggest sandcastle, seeing who can throw the fastest pitch, or competing in a championship match, it's always better when there's a prize on the line.

1:27:32Bill Simmons:Like a Michelob Ultra. Smooth, refreshing, and so satisfying after all that hard work. Superior's worth playing for. Michelob Ultra. Superior light beer. Enter for a chance to win Superior soccer, basketball, golf prizes at MichelobUltra.com slash superior access. Enjoy responsibly. Copyright 2026, Anheuser-Busch. Michelob Ultralight Beer, St. Louis, Missouri. This episode is brought to you by Workday. Guessing is for game shows, not your business, especially when your margin for error is zero. Workday is the enterprise AI platform for HR, finance, and IT with a deep understanding of your organization's context and guardrails.

1:28:12Bill Simmons:So every AI action is permission aware, giving you accuracy 24-7 and the ability to not just get work done, but get it done right. it's a new work day alright we did rewatchables today and we thought we'd do 15 minutes on sports stuff because Van Lathan is here and Chris Ryan is here Van you want to talk college football? let's do it you were one of the hosts of the ringer tailgate the best show on the ringer one of the best shows ever ever? I'm locked in on UCLA I have the over on six and a half wins and seven half wins okay I'm all in my guy Chesney is there what are the big storylines though?

1:28:47Bill Simmons:give us the top three casual college football fans what should we care about? casual college football fans. You know, there are not a lot of huge storylines really going into the season, obviously. Can I guess? Yeah, guess some of the top stories. You want to guess? Well, is the number one storyline all the macro changes happening to the administration of the sport, NIL, who's in trouble for what, whether they'll break off and start Super Leagues? That sounds depressing. But that's the number one storyline? I mean, to me, you have, inside of college football, some storylines are Lincoln Riley, at USC.

1:29:21This be a prove-it year for him, whether or not you think that it is or not. Obviously, Lane Kiffin at LSU.

1:29:25Bill Simmons:I would say USC versus UCLA potentially being revived. That's a somewhat... That sounds like a fun storyline. Localized storyline for you. Yeah, no one really cares. That's one of, to me... Nationally, nobody cares. Nationally, nobody cares. But most of the storylines in college football have had to do with, like, the Brendan Sorsby situation, the conversation about gambling and college football, the congressional involvement in college football. Save College Sports Act. Nick Saban and some of the things that he's been saying about the actual future of how the sport is organized. Man, we've been talking about that for years.

1:30:00Bill Simmons:College football is always going to be a complete fucking mess. Who are the best quarterbacks? The best quarterbacks are Arch Manning, maybe. So I would say Arch Manning being really good and potentially winning a national championship would be the number one story. Jadad Chambliss. Yeah. saying at Ohio State. Dante in Oregon. Dante Moore at Oregon. It was nice. These guys all stuck around instead of going to the NFL. It's because they get paid as much to be there. They were going to the NFL and getting their shit kicked out of them. I mean, to be real with you, the NIL has completely changed the need for a player to leave before they're ready to go.

1:30:35Right now, you can stay until maybe you're overcooked a little bit and get as much money out of the NIL and then go try it in the NFL.

1:30:43Bill Simmons:That would happen to Dante Moore, right? in the old days he just would have come out he wouldn't have been ready yeah he would have been on the Jets yeah and he just would have gotten the shit kicked out of him do you think that Indiana is like perfectly designed to be the closest thing you can have to a dynasty in this era or do you think like we're in a parody period and it's gonna be a different champ every year I think we'll see this year they have Hoover coming in from TCU who was an excellent quarterback and so if they can make another run I think people will begin to believe in the sustainability of the Indiana model.

1:31:16Now, I should say that even the year before they went crazy and legitimately were one of the most dominant teams in college football, they were a great team that went very, very far. But people still kind of didn't believe until they saw them like Python, Alabama, and just legitimately squeeze the life out of some of these other teams. But after they've lost a little bit of something and everybody now is going to be giving them their best shot, I think this year is kind of the year where we'll see the long-lasting dominance if it exists with Indiana.

1:31:45Bill Simmons:You know who else that lost? Who? Jesus. I'm just looking over Indiana. Mendoza. Oh, it's true. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think they're going to be a really good team, but I'll tell you what, any national media person that still doesn't believe and talk shit on them and what they're doing, you do it at your own peril because they've just been kicking Blue Blood's ass, spilling Blue Blood all over college football for about two years now. Good coach. Excellent coach. Good program. Good chemistry and camaraderie. Yeah. The Purdue athletic director. He stepped in a bear trap trying to talk shit.

1:32:21Bill Simmons:I'm a fan of Ohio State is the favorite, but Notre Dame is the number two favorite. And then CR's Ducks are third. CR's Ducks. Got some Oregon merch while I was up in Oregon this week. You love them. Yeah. I like Dan Lanning. I feel like he and I could hang out. He and I could trade Zins. Yeah. I just really like, I like everything about Oregon. Like the merch, the colors, the pageantry, the way they play. I think the thing about Dan Lanning is this. Gotta win the big one. Everybody knows he's a good coach. Yeah. But do people know yet that he is a great coach? And he's like had that team in position and really actually even changed the mental makeup.

1:33:02Like they, you had Chip Kelly out there and he was playing a style of ball at Oregon that was quick and nasty and you couldn't really prepare for it. Lanning has instituted something different there. They play with an edge, and they play super physical and all of that stuff. But he's still got to win some big games. He lost his OC and his DC. Right. So he's got to win some big games.

1:33:23Bill Simmons:I always wonder what happens with coaches when they have it for a second and then they just lose it. Chip Kelly had it for like three, four years, right? No, he had it for a long time. No, but I'm saying like when he was the hottest commodity for an NFL team to hire, and it was like, oh, this guy, he's going to be like offensive Belichick. The beginning of that. Now he's like, he just got fired as the Raiders offensive coordinator 10 games into the season. Right. How do you just lose the edge with that? Well, I mean, the question is, does that scheme work in the NFL? Or is that what it is? It was all scheme and once defenses figured it out.

1:33:57Bill Simmons:And that happened a little bit with Buddy Ryan, right? Because Buddy Ryan had this groundbreaking defense and then at some point in the mid-90s it shifted and then he wasn't groundbreaking anymore. It's almost like a director. He had one move. a couple yeah it's like a director you can have three good movies and then can't sustain it I hate it but it's what Belichick was good at was like reinventing adapting and reinventing yeah and it's like to watch the Randy Moss Patriots versus the Patriots that first won the Super Bowl you're like this is a completely different team this is a completely different like philosophy that they're executing out there that was my favorite Belichick quality was that he was amorphous to whatever his talent was he's like oh we're good at this I'll do it this way this year which I don't think a lot of coaches are like here's my scheme I got to fit my guys into my this is how we do stuff and those are the guys that always get in trouble yeah I mean well there's some college there's different aspects of the game right there's like this disparity in talent that exists not just from conference to conference but like even within a team yeah you can have a team with an incredible blue chip ratio but still you got to fill some of those places with guys that weren't like exactly four or five especially now right So for him to go as fast as he was going, to take advantage of some of the stuff that he was doing schematically, that's just probably easier to do in the Pac-12 than it is in the NFC East.

1:35:19Well, how many coaches would you say like,

1:35:22Bill Simmons:oh, that guy's good? We're just like blind. Everybody would agree whether they like the score or not. Like you said Dan Lanning. I think most people would be like, oh, yeah, that guy's good. Yeah, Kirby's good. Kirby's good. Indiana coach. Oh, that guy's good. Zignetti's good. Zignetti's good. Lane Kiffin's at that point now, right? Lane Kiffin is definitely a guy who right away, think about somebody in a different thing that like, he legitimately raises the floor of whatever it is that you have. A floor raiser. A true floor raiser. Lane Kiffin's going to do that. If you, Lane Kiffin runs the type of offense and the type of program to where if you start off and you're a five-win team, you're going to every year be now a nine-win team.

1:36:00The question with Lane Kiffin still is, can you be a 14 or 15-win team? because like as deep of a run as Ole Miss made last year, I don't know. The question with Lane is the same as Dan Lanning. Like Lane Kiffin still has yet to take a team and get them over the hump to a national championship. And if he wants to be mentioned in the same vein as the rest of these guys, he's got to find a place to do that. And if he doesn't do it at LSU, I think his national reputation will diminish a lot. He's going to be a OC at like Miami Dolphins. It's going to be tough, yeah.

1:36:34Bill Simmons:That's like we have NBA players like that, right? You can take it to round two. Yeah. Maybe even, you can sniff round three. You want to say something after that? No. Okay, I thought we were, I thought that was an NBA thing. We're not throwing daggers here. It's August. Or you have guys that can get you to the finals as the number one guy. They can get you to the finals as the number one guy. NBA, not that many guys. I mean, they can get to the conference finals, but I think, like there's Donovan Mitchell can get you to round two or round three. Yeah. But has been unable to get people to round four.

1:37:02Harden, unable.

1:37:04Bill Simmons:But just think about it like this, like Jimmy Butler. Jimmy Butler. Jimmy Butler can get you to the NBA Finals. That's why he's so tough to rank historically. That's why it's difficult that Jimmy Butler can get you to the NBA Finals. I have him 100th. Do you? My pyramid. My revised pyramid that I've spent the whole summer working on for really no reason. Because my kids are old and don't want to hang out with me. 100th all time. I have him 100th because of the two finals. I really value those. He got you to the... He was the best guy on two teams that made the finals. Made to the finals, right?

1:37:36It's the hardest thing to do. And they were, those teams, when they got there, they actually kind of made you believe. Like, can they pull this off? And he also dragon slayed

1:37:45Bill Simmons:some teams. Yeah, he beat some teams he had no business beating. Giannis, when Giannis was good. And, you know, he took down a really good Celtics team that won the title the next year. Yeah, right. So there are coaches that are like that. Yeah. That perennially can get you there. So is it less than 10 of like elite coaches in college football right now? Yeah, that everybody agrees that guy's good. Is it eight? There's a lot of guys. There's Marcus Freeman at Notre Dame. There's another one. There's Steve Sarkeesian at Texas. Ohio State guy's another one. There's Ryan Day at Ohio. Everybody knows that these guys are badasses.

1:38:20But they have, even amongst those guys, there's still people that are waiting. There's some people that have had better days, like a Dabo Sweeney, who at one point was at the top of the elite coaches, like a Nick Saban slayer. Right? There's some guys that are past that. Some guys, like Freeman who are still marching towards having that type of reputation, but you know that they're great coaches. And then some guys like Kirby who are retooling. But of all of them... But of all of them what? Of all of them, there are about five dudes that if you have them year in, year out, you're competing for a national championship.

1:38:54I think the NFL is six.

1:38:55Bill Simmons:Let's hear it. I think McDonald is in there now for what Seattle did. Seattle literally could have won every game last year. And I think whatever he was doing he seemed that he has to be in the discussion. John McVay? McVay. I think Sean Payton. I think Shanahan. Ben Johnson I think is there now. Would you say Sirianni? I wouldn't. I would have I would have Rabel This is so interesting. I would have Rabel as the sixth one because he's had success on two teams with pretty flawed teams. Two families.

1:39:33he's a very versatile coach he can succeed in his own house on the road and at home somebody say he's better on the road if there's an NFL meetings

1:39:42Bill Simmons:maybe he'll know a good B &B two hours away are there like a it's like a hot springs around here you guys happen to know yeah thinking about going up with some friends it's really like a high hedge though you know what's interesting about that list I don't know if Jim Harbaugh neither Harbaugh is on my list for the top six. Jim Harbaugh, I think we want to be in the list, but he hasn't had the results. I think Andy's off. I think he's too old now. This is an interesting situation. I thought that Chiefs season last year was such a mess. I don't know how he doesn't... Can I ask you guys a question just about Sirianni?

1:40:12We've talked about this before. So, I'm fascinated with why he's so poorly regarded with the amount of success that the Eagles have had. Because I think they have so much talent. It's almost like people think they win despite him. GM has the mystique that is usually reserved for the coach. So like everybody is sort of like Howie sees and trusts Howie. Howie knows what he's doing. Like watch what Howie did here. And it's just all of the credit winds up going to him. It goes to Fangio. And it's all dependent on like who's the OC. If it's Kellen Moore, then we're great. If it's Kevin Petula, we're bad.

1:40:48Everybody's losing their mind about Sean Mannion right now. But it's not unlike the way people look at Jalen Hurts, where it's like, well, this guy has won a Super Bowl, been to a Super Bowl. outside of that, they're always, with the exception of that real detonation season, consistently very good, but gets no, like, kind of, like, hot talk show respect, kind of.

1:41:11Bill Simmons:Well, what do you say the key thing is if you wouldn't be shocked if the guy got fired after the season, I don't think you can be in the top six. Right, but, like, you've got Ben Johnson in there. And it's like, Ben Johnson hasn't done anything compared to Sirianni. I just think he's, I just think he's going to be there for a while. I feel the best about him. What is the Green Bay coach again? I forget his name for some reason. LeFleur. LeFleur. I think he's a better coach than Ben Johnson. I think he's... I don't know. I thought LeFleur was going to get fired after the playoffs. I understand that.

1:41:40But having Ben Johnson on the list, other than a coach that's won a Super Bowl and played for another one. And by the way, I'll say something about the Jalen Hurts thing is that Jalen Hurts not only got there, but played phenomenally in those Super Bowl games. He really played good. And I think that the fact that that team has been able to maximize, not all the time not all the time he's not slinging it around all the time like making no look throws and all of that stuff but they've been able to maximize their personnel and play in a way that's distinct and unique to who they have shows that they're really well coached

1:42:08Bill Simmons:I just thought what Ben Johnson did last year was outrageous I mean that team his quarterback he had to almost teach him on the fly how to be a consistent kind of guy who could actually take somebody he had a bunch of young players he had to take over a whole new organization is that when you can take over a franchise that's just been run like shit, and that's what Rabel did too, and in nine months just fix it, I think that's like the hardest thing to do. Sirianni was inheriting a really good infrastructure, a great front office, and a ton of talent. Well, I mean, he was inheriting a Super Bowl winning team that had decayed, came in, and revitalized it.

1:42:45And I think because he was like a little bit more of a younger, fresher voice that was about like more being a CEO, whereas Doug Peterson, I think had a little bit more control. Although Nick's system, this has been always the issue, is Nick has an offensive system that I think he likes to implement and OCs that come in either fully adopt it or like add their wrinkles to it. And this has been the time, I think, I think conditional on Nick's keeping his job, they were like, you have to basically give Mannion the keys.

1:43:14Bill Simmons:Well, you're an Eagles fan. Do you think he's a good coach? Like I would fight for Vrabel for the death unless we were talking about husband of the year. I would not fight for Nick Sirianni to the death. Yeah, no. And we had this conversation at Core Week one time. Core Week, we love to hang out and have conversations. And I'm... Core Week. I love Core Week. Vain loves Core Week. I love Core Week. Vain loves multiple ringer people just together. I just love a room full of ringer people. Can I run calls, but in real life, to talk to stuff about. I just, I don't understand the Sirianni thing. I understand, like, being frustrated with the way the team and particularly Jalen Hurts has played at times.

1:43:50Especially in this era of so much being on the quarterback and all of that stuff, but he's been so successful, and they've been perennially in contention. I just kind of don't get it. Even the Jim Harbaugh thing that you could bring up. So if you look at Jim Harbaugh, the success that he's had as a coach in the last 20 years...

1:44:10Bill Simmons:San Francisco, Michigan, Chargers. Yeah, you could argue that there are very few peers there. He's won a national championship at Michigan. He's had... Forget about what he did at Stanford as well to have Stanford as an elite upper echelon team. Then he goes to the 49ers, has them in the Super Bowl. They do not win, but he continues to have success right away. Not only are you a good team with Jim Harbaugh, you have the chance to be a great team. You have 10-win credibility, basically. Absolutely. I like this exercise. Can I put you on the spot and ask you who the NBA coaches would be? Yeah, I'd have to.

1:44:46Bill Simmons:Let me get my standings. because I think in a lot of these sports, I'll vamp while you look. Okay, I'm ready. You're seeing like a rise of the technocratic coach who's like, I'm very good at one specific thing or I'm very good as like a vibes guy. But the idea of a coach being bigger than the team, I think is going away in a lot of different sports. I agree. It will be hard for it to go away in college football. Yeah, but even in college football, it's like the guys that get jobs now are like, I know Chesney and these dudes, but it seems like it's like Eric Morris and Will Stein. And it's like, do you have a playbook?

1:45:23And if you do, we'll pay the premium and give you the head coaching job just so that we don't have to get a new OC every year. But I'll say this though, I agree with that. But at some point in college football, just the personality of your program just has to be your head coach. This is the reason why they've been making fun of me on Tailgate because of the twinkle. The twinkle that I saw in Chesney's eye. I did not want to agree with Bill about this I hate agreeing with Bill but you were like at the practice I was there and I watched the way people responded to him in the building leader of men I watched the way they talked about UCLA football legitimately while we were there they were tearing at the practice field doing new stuff and I just it would be difficult not to believe in him you know before I you know who Harbaugh reminds me of Jim Harbaugh he's like a a football coach he's like the Larry Brown of like football coaches.

1:46:18Like the Larry Brown of it. Now he didn't even, he hasn't gotten over the top in professional football yet. But like if you have Larry Brown like coaching your team, automatically your team is going to pull it together. Until they fucking hate him. Until they, see that's the same shit though. With Harbaugh.

1:46:35Bill Simmons:That's the same thing. This is why basketball is so different. It's like Mike Brown just won with the Knicks. Mike Brown failed on like four other teams, right? So at the, I think there's this cluster of coaches that if you gave them the right team, they could make the Final Four and maybe even win the title. Spoh? I think it's a bunch of them. No, I think Spoh's on a different level because no matter what his team is, the team's successful, and they've overachieved in these crazy ways. E-culture? I also think coaching LeBron and Wade and Bosh those first couple years was like the single hardest thing any coach did the last 15 years.

1:47:10Bill Simmons:Where it's like, if this doesn't work out, I'm getting fired. and I don't have buy-in from these guys because they've decided everything on this team. I have to win these guys over. You remember there was a lot of battling in that first season and even the second season. I just thought the way he navigated that was pretty special. I think Dagnall's really good. Yes. But in my mind, I think Chris Finch is good. Dagnall is like that kind of like technocrat coach that I'm thinking of where it's like emerges out of a system. Presti is the man, the wizard. everything is kind of like top to bottom you're here and I think he's very very good I'm just saying he's good he had a really hard roster to keep everyone happy and he was able to do it which I think in the NBA is the hardest thing to do but Missoula I think has been an amazing regular season coach and they've blown three playoff series in the last four years where they were huge favorites you're up and down on him sometimes it seems like like sometimes you're completely bothered on him I thought the Philly series last year was one of the worst losses this past season yeah I mean, you know that.

1:48:12Bill Simmons:Embiid didn't even play them. Embiid didn't even. It was ridiculous. How did they lose to Philly? When you look back at that series, you're like, how the fuck did we in a million years win that? I think that you guys looked and they were just like, we need Paul George. The Celtics were just like, we got to get PG out of it. He's probably the best forward in the series. Who are the other coaches? So, Missoula. I mean, that's really it because then everybody else is. I think Steve Kerr is still really good. Yeah, there are guys who have done a lot, but like Ty Lue and Steve Kerr. I would say Charles Lee is probably my favorite younger one.

1:48:47Bill Simmons:I thought the stuff they did last year with the team they had and how weird the team was. And maybe Nurse. Really? I thought he completely out-coached Missoula. He's won a title, right? He's made conference finals, and he might be a little better. But I don't know. There's probably like three or four, and then there's like another five or six. But how many guys could have won with the Knicks last year? Right? Well, I don't know. You need to be a defensive kind of presence guy. You also need to have the ability to stand up to towns. You have to ride the storm. That team hated each other for like part of last season.

1:49:28Bill Simmons:So he navigated that. So he gets credit for that. But I wouldn't have thought he could have done that a year ago. At the same time, it also feels like he allowed, in a very unique way, for that team to take on its own personality. And he injected a belief system into the team. Yeah, Finch does that with the Timberwolves, too. He injected a belief system into them. Finch is a good one, because that's a really hard team to coach. You have real flaws. This is something else about Brown to me. It also seemed like to me that the success of the Knicks had as much to do with his journey as a basketball coach to where he got to that point in his career where he had had some high-profile failures, been through some stuff, and he understood just how to hold on enough and let go enough and believe and instill belief.

1:50:19Would Doc and the Celtics be kind of a comp for Mike Brown?

1:50:22Bill Simmons:Yeah, but even the Doc thing was rocky because he was playing... He just didn't want to play young guys. Mike Brown was way more willing to embrace the bench Doc eventually, the corner turned when he started playing the younger guys and trusting Rondo It's interesting talking to different people around the league who they respect as great coaches like when Atkinson got fired by Brooklyn and the people around the league were like, that's fucking crazy, this guy's a good coach and the kind of the litmus test of does everybody else think the guy's a good coach and did the owner fuck that up Then there's other cases where, like, Budenholzer was a good coach until he wasn't.

1:51:01Yep. You know?

1:51:02Bill Simmons:I think that happens sometimes in college football and pro football, too. Sometimes the guys have it for five, six years, and then it's just gone. I'm going to ask a real casual question. Let's say you're sitting down with somebody that doesn't follow NBA basketball at all. What makes a good coach? Because in college football, I absolutely know what makes a good coach, right? In college football, I absolutely know you can tell when a guy, both on the field, what it is that you're doing, but also when a guy has the presence and the institutional integrity to define a program. That's, to me, the top thing that makes a college football coach.

1:51:40But for the NBA, a game that is so, analytics are so important to it. Sometimes, I don't even know if casuals know what it is. I think it's different. Like regular season coaching and playoff coaching is definitely different. Just like regular season basketball and playoff basketball.

1:51:53Bill Simmons:And what your team's objectives are, how you manage. Like maybe my star port only wants to play 55 to 60 games. How do I manage that? I think NFL coaches by far are still the most important. Like if you get one of the six or seven real guys, that's your 10 to 12 win team a year if you have talent. Right? Like when we had Belichick, it really didn't matter who was on the team. With Belichick and Brady, we were probably going to win like 12 to 14 games. But then as he got older, you could kind of see the team decaying. Special teams started going, right? He started missing drafts. There were these things that, these kind of red flags.

1:52:28Bill Simmons:And then he's just like, yeah. In basketball, you just get fired if it doesn't work out for one year, right? You have like Anthony Edwards as your superstar, and you lose in round one. You're just getting fired, right? They're always going to pick the players. Or you could be hot as hell. You could be like Taylor Jenkins, red hot, Memphis is the future. Taylor Jenkins, great example. And then fired and gone. E-May, if Houston's a mess this year, he'll get fired. But the lifespan of the NBA coaches are nuts. It's like four years is a long time. Who did they say was the third? Isn't Missoula like the third longest coach?

1:53:00Bill Simmons:It's something crazy like that. Will Hardy's a good coach, right? Will Hardy's good. My question is, how do you motivate these dudes when we get to like these guys are making$70 million a year? What's the difference between that and making$30 million a year? I mean, do you think they're... You're still making... I understand generational wealth, but I just mean, it's not like they were underpaid. I'm saying when you have a team that has a star, they can't trade the star who's making a shitload of money and he's not going anywhere. And if he doesn't get along with his coach, the coach is losing that every time.

1:53:32Bill Simmons:So this is my thing. I think the league is so star dependent that a lot of this is just, the coaches are tethered to these guys. And if these guys have bad dispositions, you're just not going to win a lot. It's just going to be tough. If you get a Giannis or a Jokic, who for whatever reason has all of this talent, but also is addicted to competition and want to be the best, you just end up going further than if you have some of these other guys. Some of these other guys that can be weird, mercurial, destroy a team. A lot of that is just based on how these superstars look at themselves. And you can build around it.

1:54:10You can coach, but you can't. Some of it, you're handcuffed to it. Also, I don't know, man. I mean, we're starting to see... now once a year, a top 15 NBA player get traded in an inexplicable way sometimes. So if you can trade Luka and you can trade Jalen and these guys are all like, I don't want to go in the second apron and I don't want 50 % or 60 % of my salary cap wrapped up in two guys. Choose one. I mean, I don't know. Maybe the coach will take on a greater precedence. You know? Look, I'm a Laker fan. I love Luka, right? Love Luka. Love watching Luka play and all of that stuff. But if you're coaching Luka, If you're coaching Luka, that must be an interesting spot to be in because your team is always going to be just relevant enough for you to get blamed for the fact that he doesn't always play in a way.

1:54:59I mean, Luka is a phenomenal player, but he's going to keep you just relevant enough to be incredibly criticized. But having Luka does not necessarily mean that you are going to win a championship.

1:55:12Bill Simmons:Yeah, and you also have to build your team around all of his strengths and weaknesses. In order to have the type of success, he has to have a team that is just tailored for him. So it's an interesting spot to be in. And as we talk about superstar players in the league, there are very few guys in the league that if you have this guy, that you can put scraps around him and you're going to the finals. Well, I think Halbert is like that. I think you can build any type of team around him. I think Tatum is like that too. These guys who they can kind of be whatever. They can fill these different spots.

1:55:46Bill Simmons:Why did you look at each other? Tatum's made two finals. Let's see it happen now. He's really good. I'm not saying he's really good. I was actually reacting to Halliburton. My point is there's guys that are easier to build around than other guys. I think Halliburton is more that guy than Tatum. I think the way Hallie plays and all of this stuff, I think if you have him, I think Max is like that. I really think he is so well-respected around the league as just an awesome guy. Yeah. And coaches. Like, Doc is, like, his biggest evangelist. Doc hasn't coached him for three years. But everybody loves Maxie.

1:56:22Bill Simmons:And you have that. And he's easy to play with. Needs the ball. Doesn't need the ball. You know. Those are the best guys, I think, to build around. Sure. Luka is like, okay, we need a rim runner who can protect him on defense. We need a second grader. I don't need a point guard because my point guard can't have the ball a lot. I need, like, Quentin Bryce type guys. But when I hurt my hamstring and I'm gone for three to five weeks, I'm going to need a point guard. Then I need Austin Reeves. Yes. Right. Now, I will say that when firing on, like, Luka has taken attention to the finals. And, like...

1:56:57He did. And a lot of his issues were kind of, like... Because Luka's great. That's the problem with others. He's a phenomenal basketball player. Yeah. Yeah. Like, at times you go, this is not only the best guy in the league. Like, this guy doesn't seem like he has any offensive weaknesses whatsoever, it feels like. And then he fouls out of the biggest game of the year with five minutes left. And then you watch him. What the fuck? I just want, man, I just want Luka to have five straight possessions of just missing the shot and just getting back. Just trying to make it a habit. Just miss the shot and getting back.

1:57:29Bill Simmons:I think by the time you hit 30, you are who you are. If you haven't learned that by now, he's like, guess what? That doesn't matter. It's like Embiid's not going to suddenly be in awesome shape this year. He is who he is. We're monitoring it. You're working on it? His weight's looking pretty good, actually. Have you done the, you think you're better than me? With LeBron helicoptering in every time. I'm totally fine with it. You don't want to live in Philly, LeBron. I'm totally fine with it. I thought Jalen, genius move, going right to the hood. Doing his press conference. He sniffed that out. What you mean?

1:57:58Bill Simmons:He's like, I'm going to be a man of the people. Right to the hood. That's where he did his press conference. He cares about people legitimately. Yeah. But he did. He's like, I'm going to buy into the city of Philly and I'm going to go. He did not go to like a Wells Fargo branded, friggin' facility. Because that's who he actually is. Watch. They're going to be good. They're going to be good. They're going to be good. There's no scenario where they're not good. They're going to be good. I think everyone knows they're going to be good. I think they're going to be better than people even think that they're going to be.

1:58:29Yeah. It's injury and age dependent. We'll see.

1:58:32Bill Simmons:So, over-under for them is 50, which seems fair. A couple of injuries might actually help them. I think they're a 55 because I think they can win games when they don't have Embiid or LeBron. Yes. They could just have the other three guys. Maxie, BJ, and Jalen. Yeah, I think they can win games. You could play like, I don't know, somebody shitty, Washington. You beat Washington with those three guys just doing everything and then save the big guns for bigger games. Should be a fun season. Thanks, guys. It annoys you. What? Just before you get the Philly thing. Just be honest. It annoys you. I really like Jalen.

1:59:08Bill Simmons:I don't like that he's going to be at Philly. Philly's our rival. That's the team we hate the most. They asked him about whether he was going to have a chip on his shoulder about Boston, and he was like, we'll see. That means yes. Boy, I tell you what. Let me tell you what. Because the one thing I give him more credit, and you've said this before, is you can get kind of scatterbrained performances for him, but you never get one when he feels challenged. When there's a guy on the other side that he feels like, I want to prove that I'm better than this guy, he goes crazy. man oh man oh man is he going to have prove it games against Jason Tatum and the Celtics I did this on the mailbag with House Philly has these five teams where every game against the five teams is going to be awesome yeah Cleveland Miami Boston LA the Knicks no and then one other team in the East Toronto yeah all teams that have real history with LeBron or Jalen or you know there's some sort of rivalry but I the fact that Tatum and Brown have not talked since the trade to me is dumbfounding.

2:00:13Bill Simmons:Yeah. I don't expect these guys to be buddies, but they didn't do a five-minute call? But that might be your answer as to why they're not playing together anymore. Oh, it's definitely the answer, CR. That's how bad it got. We worked together 15 years. Bill, don't do this because I would be forced to start potting. You don't want me to actually pod. you don't want me to you understand it you haven't put speed up yet right did you put speed up Spotify trades CR and CR does the press conference with like Amazon and they're like CR have you talked to Billy it's me and Jeff Bezos in Southwest Philly at a rec center have you talked to Billy yet no haven't talked to him like that's fucking weird these guys want a title together two years ago.

2:01:08Bill Simmons:They haven't talked? Yeah. What's our title? I'm still waiting for the Now They Tell Us and I don't know if we're ever getting it, but the talent podcast. The talent podcast. That's the title. Thanks, guys. Thank you. All right. That's it for the podcast. Thanks to Kirk. Thanks to Vin and CR. Thanks to Eduardo and Gahal as well. I will see you at least one more time during the week on this feed. And then rewatchables is going to be Monday with Speed. So enjoy the rest of the day. I'll see you midweek.

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