Spain Prevails, World Cup Winners and Losers, and Damon Vs. Leo With Chris Ryan and Anthony Dabbundo

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22:13Bill Simmons:It's a new day and a new stay. Book now at HolidayInn.com. All right. I made this list. I didn't consult you on it. I have my biggest winners and my biggest losers of the World Cup. CR, who do you think was the biggest winner of the World Cup, other than Spain, obviously, because they won the World Cup? Who would be your number two runner-up winner? Holland. Erling Holland. I'm guessing for you almost, but Erling Holland would be up there. Bellingham would be up there. You think just because Holland, just because for the casual fans, they didn't fully understand until the cup. This is his first tournament.

22:54Bill Simmons:If you don't watch Man City, this is your first exposure to him. And you get to see the Viking row. You get to see this guy basically not touch the ball for 86 minutes. And then the two times he does, he scores two great goals. And he looks cool. And everybody's just like, what the hell is up with this guy? So definitely a big breakout tournament for him, I think. He's also extremely Gen Z. He's so online. Twitter, Instagram. Snapchat. I mean, how many apps do we have that are regularly posting Snapchats in 2026? I'll tell you, he also won over Van Lathan. I don't know if you saw Holland's girlfriend.

23:29Bill Simmons:Is he a city guy now? No, he's a Holland's girlfriend guy. Oh, okay. My biggest winner of the World Cup. Oh, you go, AD. Who is your biggest winner? You could still make the case it's Leo Messi. So that's who I had as well. Yeah. I mean, he was the best player at the World Cup at 39. 39. And I know that Argentina had to change some things up to build the system around him, but he's so good that it's still worth doing. And for him to, you know, he didn't end up winning the golden boot because there was some, you know, third place game stat padding maybe, but he had the most goals plus assists. Like he's behind Mbappe.

24:03Like he's up there doing the stuff. And none of what Argentina did in this tournament is possible without Messi doing this. He hasn't played top level club in years, right? So I don't think anybody knew what to expect. He didn't play that much in the qualifiers relative to past qualifiers. So it's like, well, what are we going to get? And then, oh, oh, right. He has a hat trick in the first game. He's the best player in the tournament still at 39. You agree with that, Sierra? Yes. And he also like ended once and for all any whispers about like, is it him and Ronaldo or is it him and Maradona? Or like it's, it's him.

24:36And then it's everybody else.

24:38Bill Simmons:So I had him as my biggest winner other than the team that won. Um, I was thinking about my life, like the, the biggest stars ever, just the people that we were just like that dude because before we were born there was like the Babe Ruth types right and then Ollie was the first one like that where everybody's just like that guy's the fucking greatest and like if you had a counter argument people get mad and then that turned into Jordan and then that turned into Tiger in the 2000s right um Tiger hit a point especially in the 2008 that US Open when he was playing on his bum knee before the car accident where it was like this guy's the greatest golfer we've ever seen.

25:16Bill Simmons:And it's funny, Messi's starting to ascend in the late 2000s. That was right when I started really watching soccer for, you know, for fun. That was really when Messi started to take off. That was when my daughter started playing AYSO when she was like four. The fact that he's still around in 26 as this guy that has to be doubled and watched constantly and is the most feared guy in the entire tournament. It's incredible. Like this is kind of what LeBron wishes we discussed him like these days at age 41, where it'd be like, oh man, LeBron got to watch. And it's like LeBron hasn't been that guy for five years.

25:52Bill Simmons:Right. And Messi is somehow still this guy, but yet he came here to play soccer. Right. He's playing in Miami and this was supposed to be like his, oh, this is the next stage of his career. It doesn't feel that way. I don't, how many more years does he have AD that he could play at this level? you know the demands of like european club are vastly different from the demands of international and you do tend to see like some of these guys that stick around longer at the international level because there's not as much pressing you can build your system around one guy who just has a magical left foot or right foot right um why wouldn't he play copa america in two years i mean we're getting ahead of ourselves but he could i don't doubt it would he be the star player playing 120, 90 minutes every game?

26:36Maybe not, but I'm not going to bet against the guy. I think it basically depends. It depends on whether Scaloni stays as the Argentina coach. Because that guy won a World Cup. He's been to another World Cup final. He's won several Copa Americas. If he wants to go coach in Europe, he can. But he and Messi have been lockstep this entire cycle. And Messi has had problems with Argentina managers in the past. not like throwing tantrums kind of problems, but guys who have been like, well, we're actually going to make Messi part of a system and not play entirely around him. And if they get some coach in who wants to counterpress a lot and run like crazy, he's not going to be able to do that.

27:18Right.

27:19Bill Simmons:It seems conceivable to me that he could play at 43 in the 2030 World Cup. Because one of the things like watching him, and it's a little like for some reason, it reminds me of Jalen Brunson. these guys that are low to the ground but strong there was a couple plays where sometimes Messi will just he'll get low to the ground and he'll carry somebody on his back and is able to keep the ball and the guy will go flying off his back and he's just so low to the ground and there's been running backs like that too I don't know I just feel like he could keep going there was a moment in the England game where he like shrugs off Shed Spence turns Declan Rice and then like rides the challenge of Elliot Anderson before they get wiped out in the midfield, and you're like, he's how old?

28:0139 doing that? Against two of the best, most athletic midfielders in the world who are in their physical primes.

28:08Bill Simmons:What about that pirouette he did today when he was on the right side and somehow did the 360 and was going toward the middle of the field? He's amazing. He had a pass today that was on the outside of his boot across the field to Simeone, who tried to draw a foul on Kukureo, but it was like... I was like, that is the DPI pass and it was this moment of genius and it gave me to get the ball as much. My favorite thing about Messi this tournament other than the obvious like heroics has been when there's been like a contentious play on the field and the opposing team players try to get up in the ref's face and start yelling at one of the Argentina code is one of his teammates.

28:49Messi like will kind of wander into the scrum and everybody's like hey man my problem's not with you. Okay. Right. This dude's 5 '7". He's not going to knock anybody out. Everybody's just like, you're God. I'm sorry. Well, there was one player who trash-talked him. I don't know if you saw this gif that's been going around CR. Jude Bellingham, and there's a gif of Messi just kind of smiling and smirking at him. Like, hmm. Ironic.

29:16Bill Simmons:Ironic you brought this up. That was my number two winner of the World Cup after the team and Messi. The Messi meme, I think, is going to be a top five meme of all time. Like, when you think, like, The Alonzo morning meme of him doing the whatever on the bench when he's sad. We've had a couple of these. I think this one, I even got a great email about it. DeBundo, you should thank your lucky stars you're here. I'm going to read this email to CR from Jeff B. Who wants to know? Because I had the same thought. How much Messi looked like De Niro in that moment with Bellingham when he made them. So he said, what was the most appropriate De Niro movie and moment that captured the messy face in that scene?

30:00Bill Simmons:And he gave us five options. Number one was the Jackie Brown, don't say another word moment right before he shoots Bridget Fonda in the parking lot. Number two is De Niro and Pesci facing off in the desert in Casino. Number three was the heat diner scene with Pacino. There's a flip side of that coin. number four this was the one I had Jimmy Conway deciding to whack Maury our favorite scene in Goodfellas yes the greatest cigarette anyone's ever smoked but he said option five going De Niro adjacent can we go De Niro adjacent for this for best De Niro he's going with Vincent Han as okay motherfucker and he okay motherfucker see to me it reminded me of De Niro on the payphone calling Van Sant and being like, because there's a dead man on the other end of this.

30:56Bill Simmons:That's good. All right. I think that's the answer. All right. So I have that second after Messi as the non-Spain winner in the World Cup. Haaland was third. So I know Jamal didn't have the... He didn't even score today. He basically had hockey assists and whatever. I still feel like it was a great World Cup for him from a visibility, people knowing who he is. I thought the photo of him and Messi, which nobody believed was real for two weeks. And it's just like, I think overall, like a really positive World Cup for him where it's like, this is the foundation. You can see him coming back in 2030 and being the biggest star we have.

31:37Bill Simmons:He was obviously playing hurt. So I would have him on there. Is that a bad opinion, AD? I think we'll look back in like six or seven years. like, well, you mean Yamal won the World Cup with Spain and nobody will remember that he wasn't a star player. You just get, you kind of get credit for it. It wasn't an Mbappe level World Cup, right? In 2018, when Mbappe just electrified all of us and scored all the goals and did all the athletic freak moves. But, you know, it is crazy how much timing plays into this because Yamal was incredible last summer. Incredible two summers ago at the Euros. Yeah. Wasn't great this summer because he wasn't even a grade two hamstring injury where they showed him on Friday in training still wearing a bandage on the leg.

32:15so we'll never know and these things only come around every once every four years so hopefully he's healthy for the next one but I do feel like he'll probably look back and be disappointed in his own thing even if he'll say look I won the World Cup what are you going to say I mean he's already won the World Cup he's already won the Euros he's won La Liga he was the best player at the Euros two years ago and now he's you know the I think he won Young Player of the Tournament at this one I haven't been watching but I mean all he needs to do now is what go win the Champions League with Barcelona and he's got the most accomplished resume of a sub-21-year-old of all time?

32:48Bill Simmons:Well, my wife didn't know who he was three weeks ago. Now knows who he is. And I watched the game with my 18-year-old son and at halftime we were like, isn't it crazy you're the same age as the right wing who's drawing two guys over? So I think when you put it in that context, it's pretty nuts. Where you're turning to Ben and being like, when are you going to do something special like this? It's like, what's happening? Congrats, you got into college. I would say my caveat for Lamine is that you could make that Barcelona in parentheses because they had five guys on this Spain team. Pedri, Fran Torres, Koubarsi, the defender.

33:24You say Pedri? Yeah, Pedri and Olmo and Jamal. So if you want to go watch more of that Spain team, you can watch Barcelona.

33:32Bill Simmons:I thought Pedri was really good in this tournament. My fifth winner is America because it seemed a little inconceivable that we're going to pull off this 40-location World Cup when the heat and we don't have domes everywhere. I thought it was great for the country. I thought anecdotally, just everybody that went, I never heard bad experiences of like, oh my God, I went to the World Cup and fucking sucked. It took eight hours to get in and out. I like being in different cities. I like that it was, you know, some eight traditional cities like Kansas City, Dallas and, you know, Philadelphia, Boston, even though it was Foxborough.

34:10Bill Simmons:But I just thought it was cool. I thought, and then having Azteca in Canada too. But I really like, I thought it was a huge win. What'd you think, CR? Yeah, it was really, really awesome to see American sports fans and American football fans take to all these different nations being camped at their cities. Like the Lawrence camp, this Algeria story was fantastic. Outside of Philly, Haiti was there. I think Ivory Coast was there. so it's just been like very very cool to see people embrace other cultures and embrace other like sports cultures that way and i think if you had told us in like may you know everybody's going to be doing viking rose and lawrence kansas is going to become an outpost of algeria like you'd be like what are you talking about but this was a really heartwarming experience for the most part it was a perfect example of phrases that have never been uttered before in history being uttered.

35:05It's like the Ecuadorians and the Ivorians are playing flip cup in a Philadelphia parking lot against each other. Like, wait a minute, what? And then, you know, there's a lot of like, we are the world, peace and love and the halftime show really leaned into that today too. And Tom Cruise with dramatic readings of soccer ethos and the global game and all that stuff is nice, but it actually happened in real life. And like we watched it happen for months, you know, the Mexicans and the Koreans singing Gagnon style in the streets of LA on opening day when they both won. And like those kind of things are what make this tournament so unique.

35:37And there is nothing else in the world, not even the Olympics, that come close to that. I think this is my favorite summer sporting event since 2012 Olympics, London. There's number one for me.

35:48Bill Simmons:Yeah. By far. Trying to think. 2012 Olympics was great. I was also there. So that made it even greater. Well, all the stuff you mentioned about the different cities and the people and the different cultures. not to not to get corny but i would say our country kind of needed it we needed some positivity and some uh you know i thought like think about like what happened in boston the scotland boston thing went so well that we apparently are going to do some sort of combination things with the two cities like join events back and forth like glasgow boston like cultural exchange yeah yeah I don't know what's going on, but it was really cool.

36:29Bill Simmons:And when you think like, I don't even know how, if how many bad things happen, but there was a million good things, you know, and I don't know. I was a little worried. The heat was seemed okay. Um, but just in general, I hope we get it back again. Uh, more winners. Bill, the FIFA, I don't know if you've, you've seen this, but FIFA has kind of rigged it in a way because they're supposed to rotate continents. Yeah. And the next world cup is 2030 and it's Spain, Morocco, Portugal. So that knocks out Africa and Europe. And they're doing these ceremonial games in South America to commemorate 100 years of the World Cup.

37:03So they're knocking out three continents in one World Cup, which means, for them, they can go back to Saudi Arabia in the Middle East in 2034, Qatar in 22. And then in 2038, the only continent left to host the World Cup is North America again, where they want to expand the World Cup again. So I would say we're an odds-on favorite. Was that Trump-Infantino press conference where he's like, it's going to be in America and in China. Was that him just making something up as he was going along? Or is that a real rumor? Yeah, I'm going to say travel-wise, that one does.

37:35Bill Simmons:That would be tough. Yeah, that would be a tough one. A tough plane flight. Quickly, more winners. Cape Verde, we mentioned. Awesome for them. The messy Yamal photo. Got two days of internet content for everybody. Jude Bellingham. Kind of controversial. Heading into the World Cup. People thought, I don't know, is he a team player? Should we even keep him on? By the end of it, people are like, is this the most talented soccer player who's ever lived? I would say that was a win for him. And then finally, that last goal he scored in the meaningless third place game, unless you bet on the over for goals, which Dupendo was urging us for.

38:12Bill Simmons:Like doubled the over, right? It like tripled the over, right? That was the over. I mean, I also bet France, so kind of lost on that one. But we did win the over. Yeah, it was two and a half, and then it went to three and a half, CR. Come on. But yeah, did you see that in Jude Bellingham's CR? I had seen that the year previous. Two years ago at Madrid, he looked like the best player in the world. And also really the most clutch, which is what he was for England until that Argentina match, where I don't know whether it was a matter of him running out of gas or Argentina just game planning for him, but he barely seemed to get a look in during that match.

38:46So a disappointing end of the tournament. But for him, it was like such a huge, huge like statement tournament. and like, you know, he becomes now the centerpiece of the England team for the next generation if Kane goes away. Also, just like for England in general, the Wonderwall thing, I think this was a very likable England side when there have been England sides that you could be like, I kind of take or leave these dudes. And for the most part,

39:11Bill Simmons:like a really, really like easy to cheer for side. Yeah, I was in Hawaii for the game they won on Saturday and we were in the car listening to the radio after because we watched the game in a place and they did the Wonderwall thing. And my wife didn't know what was going on. And she's like, this is awesome. What is this? And I was like, they do this after every game. And she was like, that's unbelievable. This is, has there ever been a better, she was going nuts about it. But it is like the perfect sports song. I feel like we have a new wave of sports songs in the 2020s because Mr. Brightside's another one that's taken off.

39:44Bill Simmons:I feel like we finally shed some of the 90s, 2000 ones. Your generation, Dabundo, I think is really - We're cooking? I don't know. Yeah, I think you're cooking with some of these songs. Soccer does have some of the best ones. Like, Free From Desire is such a great, you know, dance song. Titanium, people love Titanium. It's like a perfect pre-match anthem. But why don't NFL teams, college teams, like college teams have, I guess, with the, you know, the alma mater of the schools. But so many of these pro teams could lean into this a little bit. Yeah, the Patriots had the outfields, your love, that they would play in key moments.

40:18Bill Simmons:And there's this famous, you can look it up on YouTube, It's probably the best Patriots fan clip. The Ravens game where we never should have beaten the Ravens. When we came back and won 35-31, when they did the double pass, cheating at the line that whole game, they had a defensive stand. There's a timeout and the whole crowd is singing your love for the entire timeout. I get to tell you, awesome. Yeah. Pittsburgh has Renegade, right? But they do that. Yeah. Renegade is a good one too. Yeah. When I go home today and I look that up on YouTube, like I guarantee you it's the first time I will have YouTube search Patriots fan clips.

40:51Bill Simmons:And I have such a real like how he cleaned your spatula. Quickly, more winners. Mbappe, even though France, you know, they made the final four, but he certainly came out of this tournament. I don't think he lost any standing, I would say. He needed it. He needed it. Also, Olisse, I think, was the guy who, like Holland, if you hadn't watched a lot of Bayern, Olisse just leapt off the screen to people. Yeah. I have Thierry Henry. I thought he was awesome. I really thought he had a couple great... That one time, it was like a week ago, when he broke down Spain for like five minutes, how they play.

41:31Bill Simmons:It was one of the best broadcast clips. I thought he had to do a lot of work on that set. That understatement. Yeah. Yeah, we'll get to more on that later when we get to the losers. I have four more winners. Gambling. The World Cup is incredible to gamble on. because you can do, you can get a little risky and you can roll the windows down and put your arms out and just do the straight up 90 minute win-loss bet. You can bet the draw. You can go to the one to advance, which was the one I settled in, but you can parlay stuff. I actually really enjoyed and I felt like I was getting pretty good at it by the end of Bundle.

42:13Bill Simmons:Now, probably partly because I was listening to you a lot, but I had the winner today. I had Spain with a DDP Sonny Gray three-team parlay CR. DDP, that's the fighter? Yes. I think. Yeah. Are you the only guy in the world who bet Spain and Sonny Gray today? No, Sal definitely did. Sal, yeah. Sal definitely did. That's not what I meant. Just me and Sal. I thought the game was really fun. I thought Beckham was weirdly a winner for the World Cup, even though he's retired a million years ago. I felt like he was everywhere. And there were a lot of celebrities all over the place, but it felt like he was like the royalty at the World Cup, and I don't really understand why.

42:56Bill Simmons:And he was in every ad, too. He's David Beckham. Everybody knows him. Azteca, I have as a winner, just because it was fun to have them involved. And then, last but not least, people that bitch about U.S. soccer's infrastructure. Banner, weak for them when we lost. It was really a lot of soul-searching about how we come up with our strategies, how we find players. I've been reading about the Chinese Communist Revolution to try to figure out how... Chuck Closeman comes in with a General Sal documentary. Any other winners before we get the losers really quick? Darren Fletcher and Owen Hargraves. Yeah.

43:31His broadcast team. There's a really interesting dynamic that I've now since learned about. The Brits don't like him. And I think I know why. I mean, he's a little bit different than the traditional commentator. I think if I listen to him every week for a year, I might get a little annoyed. But for him to come into the tournament and steal the show and make it such an entertaining broadcast, him and Hargraves are funny together. They bounce off each other really well. And I think everybody was like, why don't these guys call the final? And look, I love Stu Holden, but yeah, Fletch and Hargraves were the star commentary team.

44:03And I know Awful Announcing just did a rankings and they got by far the highest score of any of the teams. And it felt that way. also shout out to being in bars and having the bar play Telemundo every once in a while that really hits hard

44:18Bill Simmons:in general bars I think were winners too it was really fun to watch it really is you can come down here and be in a conversation but monitor you can jump in and out of games you sort of know you're going to be at the bar for about 2 hours, 2.5 hours 100%. If my team is in a big game, like my teams I root for, I need to be locked in in a living room setting, quiet with friends or close small group. I cannot watch a big game in a bar, except for soccer, where the whole entire bar is involved and invested in the game. That is the one sport that I feel like maybe I'm not going to be able to analyze it to the level that I would hope to, but I'm still going to enjoy it a lot more than if I go watch a college football game or an NFL game or my favorite team in a baseball world, like a playoff game, forget it.

45:09Like, I got to be on the couch.

45:10Bill Simmons:I watched the Cape Verde, the 3-2 game, Argentina game. I watched that at a bar with my daughter and her boyfriend and my wife and the place was out of its mind. And then penalty kicks in a bar is really fun too. Everybody's paying attention to that. I got to tell you, I was watching Argentina Cape Verde on my phone at a hotel pool and it was like 2-2 or whatever, and I'm like, I can't believe this might be the greatest sporting upset ever. And some guy in the pool is like, I bet Argentina! And I was just like, congratulations, man! You can really tell the future. What a call. Topless pool or regular pool, Sierra?

45:54Bill Simmons:Regular pool, bud. Thanks. This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. We're in the heart of the FIFA World Cup 26. Every play matters here. FIFA World Cup 26 for you. The stakes are just this high. Michelob Ultra, the official beer sponsor of the FIFA World Cup 26, is giving you a chance to win $1 million worth of tickets and prizes. Michelob Ultra, from the pitch to the poor, superior is worth playing for. Enter now at MichelobUltra.com slash superior access slash FIFA World Cup 2-6. Michelob Ultra FIFA World Cup 26. Superior access. No purchase necessary. Open to U.S. residents 21+. Begins on December 1st, 2025.

46:38Bill Simmons:Ends on July 31st, 2026. Multiple entry periods. Visit www.mickeleobultra.com slash superior access slash FIFA World Cup 26 for free entry, entry deadlines, prizes, and details. This message is brought to you by Mariner. It takes the right team to help develop an athlete's talents managing your money works the same way. You've ever thought, am I getting the most out of my financial plan? You're ready for Mariner. With Mariner, you get an advisor backed by a full team of specialists. So everything's working together toward your goals. Take the next step in your financial journey with Mariner. Investment advisory services offered through Mariner LLC and SEC registered investment advisor.

47:19Bill Simmons:For more information, visit mariner.com. Losers. England's coach. I'm starting with him. You bring them in because it's like, you know what? We're not going to be fucking pussies anymore. This is a brave New England. We're going to attack. We have a really good, you know, we have all this talent on offense. And we're going to be the aggressors. This is a new version of us. And then all of a sudden they get a 1-0 lead against Argentina. And just fucking turtle. Which is fine that you guys talked about this on Wednesday. If it's Azteca and you're down a man, I get it. But why are you doing that in this game?

48:00Bill Simmons:And you could feel the goal coming for 15 minutes. And I just don't understand it. And I heard people talking about it after. And the best point I heard, I can't remember who said it, was like, find me the one England fan who's like, no, no, we did the right thing. The person doesn't exist, right? Everybody was against this. So why? I think that he felt like they were losing control of the midfield. Like they could not keep the ball and that he did not have the right options to put into the game to keep the ball. So he had to put the options in to defend. That's the only argument I can make for what he did.

48:37He did it 15 minutes too early, at least. That's how I felt. You agree with that, AD? I do. And, you know, there's one guy you got to key in on if you're going to play that strategy. when you're playing Mexico, they don't have the one player who you really need to watch out for, right? Argentina does. We know who he is. And to get done on two separate situations, one of which where, you know, it's a one-on-one, Messi draws a second defender. Nobody's out on Enzo Fernandez, who is an excellent long-range shooter. That can't happen. And then you just let Messi sit on the right side and just ping crosses, and that's a death sentence.

49:11But I think the most jarring thing was the Saka element. Saka is an elite outlet, an elite at keeping the ball, He can be play on the transition. How can he not give you 20 minutes? Why are you bringing on concept for Gordon when you can bring on soccer for Gordon and, and immediately changes the whole complexion of the last 20 minutes just by having him on the pitch. Yeah. And it's also like he, he was brought in partially to be unsentimental. And he had this whole phase of the first part of his time with the squad where it looked like he was falling out with Bellingham and he was just like Bellingham needs to play like for the team and not play for himself.

49:46but at the end I thought he was way too sentimental about Kane who I thought looked completely gassed in that match and he could have brought on Watkins to be an outlet or Tony to be an outlet and he just decided to stick with Kane who was kind of anonymous in the last half an hour and he was late he closed down Enzo too he's partly at fault for the first goal

50:06Bill Simmons:it was interesting on the podcast Wednesday hearing Emre talk about that he was pretty critical of the Harry Kane piece yeah especially when you think about it like you could also just put your fastest guy on the team at high forward. So they at least have to think about, oh, if we're pushing everyone up, like that could happen. Um, I got a bunch of emails about levels of losing with the England loss because it wasn't a typical loss. Cause you have to factor in the history and the fact that the world cup is every four years. Right. But remember, I mean, I rewrote, rewrote the column. I can't remember how many times, but I had the different levels and there were two levels that I felt like it was a combo of the guillotine, which you felt the guillotine the moment they turtled.

50:49Bill Simmons:And then the stomach punch of the second goal, I think the combo of those. It was somewhere in that. It wasn't like the last level, but it was somewhere in there. I thought it was an awful loss. Sorry. I think the scariest thing for, not even the scariest, but when Enzo Fernandez scored that first goal, it did not seem like anyone on England was like, game on, let's go. Now it's like, we're going to go back down the other end and put it right to them. They were like, shit, we have to play for 20 more minutes like that. Like, it just, it just was a really, really bad miscalculation. That was like the weight of, that's, you know, franchises, countries, whatever can have the baggage of the losses.

51:26Bill Simmons:Like we see this happen with the Buffalo Bills sometimes and depending on the sport, these teams, but the Knicks even had it when the Knicks fell behind by 29 in game four. It's like, oh my God. And then all of a sudden that flipped. I mean, just never flipped back for England, right? That last 30 minutes, the baggage came, but then they never had the OJ tip in. They didn't have the guys to do it. Who's going to go create the goal now? Nico O 'Reilly? Esri Kansa? Defenders? Dan Byrne? Dan Byrne was playing striker. It was great. A couple more losers. Pulisic. I think when you think about what was sitting there before the tournament versus how we ended where it was just a three-day argument about how much was he to blame and does this guy have it?

52:10Bill Simmons:And Landon Donovan came flying it off the top rope. And this is kind of the moment for him. Like he's at that set. What is he like, 27? 27. Right? This is 23 to 27 is supposed to be, I feel like one of your athletic peaks as a soccer player. But not only did it not happen, I had more questions about him after the tournament than I had before, which is durability. How good is this guy? If this guy's your best player, how far are you going? Do you feel worse about him now, AD? or do you have all these things anyway? On the field, my opinion doesn't really change. He's still their best player. I know nobody wants to hear that right now.

52:47It's such a far fall though. Like the first 45 minutes against Paraguay, he was so amazing, right? And this is like, this is his moment. And then he gets the injury and that's kind of the story of his career. But off the field, I think it would be impossible to not have more questions about him. One, he's always had this Captain America moniker that he was handed. Has he ever actually wanted it? Not clear. he never seems to like the attention of all the documentaries and stuff but he likes to walk around like he's their best player and like everybody's supposed to know it he's not the captain of this team and he wouldn't have been the captain's second choice if Tim Ream wasn't 38 or wasn't on the team he wouldn't have been second or third or fourth choice for captain that's always alarming if my best player is never close to actually wearing the armband I don't know what his relationship with Pochettino is which could matter going forward and yeah like he just doesn't display the kind of leadership that we look for from our best players on our best sports teams.

53:41We expect that and he's never really given it. And I think that's why you start to feel these these things bleed into the on the field stuff as well. Incredibly bad sign that all those ex-players felt like they had the green light to tee off on him. Yeah. It felt coordinated. It was like, if you guys do this, there will be no pushback. Feel free to go in your pods and rip this guy. And that's not a positive development. No. Well, Klosterman, I talked about... It's not new. Last summer, Pulisic's dad was arguing with Landon Donovan using chat GPT over whether or not Christian Pulisic should or should not sit out the gold cup.

54:18So this isn't new, right? You know, the Landon stuff. Then when Carly Lloyd throws her hat in the ring and Sidney LaRue...

54:23Bill Simmons:She whipped her hat in the ring. A lot of people are throwing their hats in the ring, getting ready to get their shots at the pinata. So when there's smoke, there's fire. I think it's very obvious. Talked about this with Klosterman about... you know, is there an edge that we need? Is that going to be the thing that makes the difference between being one of the 16 best countries and one of the four to eight? And you watch Argentina the last couple of games. It's like, who would have fucking died against them? They would have absolutely bullied us the whole time. Another loser, FIFA. Everybody hates FIFA, and that did not change after this World Cup.

55:00Bill Simmons:If FIFA was looking to rehab their image at all, mission not accomplished. People just don't like them. and that's not going to change. Here's another one. Goddamn, I hated these. The hydration breaks. Yeah. They're just commercials. Let's call them what they are. These aren't hydration breaks. Like some of these games, it was 70 degrees outside. I understand when we're in the fucking Middle East playing soccer. I get it when it's 100 degrees on the field. But these are commercials. And I don't know, AD, you care about soccer as much as anyone I know. This isn't soccer. You're supposed to play straight through for 45 minutes with three to nine minutes of added time after.

55:37Bill Simmons:You're not supposed to just stop halfway through. Yeah, they have it in place in the Premier League for very specific circumstances. They have it in place for other leagues. If the temperature is above X, we will enable for a brief hydration break. I don't like, I mean, look, FIFA kind of also stuck it to us because now the Americans, the boogeymen of soccer to everybody else in the world, we get blamed for instituting hydration breaks. It was FIFA's decision. FIFA did this as a grab, as a money grab, and tried to level the playing field. Indoor games with hydration breaks, they were like timeouts.

56:09And you could literally see teams like, oh, we just got to get to the hydration break and then change up our... That's not how the game was designed to be played. If you want to break it into quarters, that's a different debate. We basically did. But they did that without doing it. And I think that's why it feels deceptive. I thought it was interesting to see managers tactically evolve to knowing that they had to get to a hydration break or something could change after a hydration break. But more often than not, the hydration break ruined momentum within the match. And I would be very curious to see a simulation of this World Cup without those breaks and see how many, what kind of variants we got in results.

56:48Because I think that there was a way in which it kind of like, anytime the underdog was threatening that the sort of favorites had this hydration break, to be like, okay, let's go get our shit together, guys. Like, what's going on? ultimately, like, I saw one clip of Mo Salah saying to Zlatan, like, thank God we had a hydration break out there. We would have been dead. But I think that was, like, in Houston or wherever he was playing, it was hot. When you see guys getting hydration breaks in air-conditioned stadiums, it's just, it's kind of beyond the pale. It's insulting. Yeah, like France, Paraguay, July 4th and Philly, they needed a hydration break.

57:24It was 100 degrees. Yeah. You know, the semifinals, Spain and France, when it's 78 indoors in Dallas, eh, don't need it. Don't need it. Don't want it. Who wants this? Most of the time in England, they're playing, it's like 40 degrees and raining. So it's like... Right. When they hit the 80s, it's like, all right, maybe we need a break. But...

57:42Bill Simmons:Yeah. If you're in a dome, you don't need a hydration break. Let's just all agree on that one. Yeah. I had Ronaldo as a loser. We don't need to go in that. Mm-hmm. Sideline reporters. Something I noticed. Our man Jeff Shreves. Donald Lusk, that's what I'm saying. No. I'm so used to football and basketball, especially, where we have to go to sideline reporters, even when they don't really have content to give us. But anytime somebody gets injured, even a little bit, we have to go. And it's like, oh, there's Lisa Salter. She's in the tunnel. And it's like, oh, his finger bent back. They just put it back.

58:19Bill Simmons:He'll be back in a minute. in the World Cup there was mystery with like who was the team where was it like a week ago when the team's goalie just left? It was like yeah he's injured he's out. Who was the goalie? I'm blanking on the country. Was it Courtois for Belgium? Yeah yeah Belgium. Yeah. Yeah. Nobody knew. He's just like yeah he's hurt. It's like oh he's coming out of the game. It's like what happened? This is like their second best player. This guy's out of the game. The backup blew the game. And the backup blew of the game and we never had Lisa Salters being like, yeah, the starting goal is out of the game because of this.

58:54Bill Simmons:And I gotta be honest, I kind of liked it. Yeah. I like the mystery of being like, yeah, I don't know why that guy just left. We're all going to be fine. We don't need an answer sometimes. I think it's harder to work them into the game because it's so flowing and so quick. As of the NFL, you know, like, alright, there was a punt. We're going to have like 48 seconds. Right, we have time. I think it makes it all the more profound for a loser that I am sure you're going to mention at one point, Bill, which is VAR. And that was my last... Wait, hold on, VAR, because that was my last loser. I had Lawless.

59:24Bill Simmons:We don't need to kick a dead body, but Lawless just could not have been a worse six weeks for him. It doesn't matter, though. He'll be back in two summers. He'll be back in two years. I'm sure he'll be on a Netflix deal to do the women's game. No matter what happens, you can't kill him. He'll be there. Lawless is over there. He's just turned. There's no interest in hearing anything he says. I didn't love the main team either. I thought Stu Holden, he's fine. He's good at like breaking down the big picture stuff. But you got to talk more about when a team is doing the rough house shit. It was like he was really afraid to be critical of, oh, I don't know.

1:00:05Bill Simmons:We need a replay of that. It was almost like he didn't want it. He wanted to be the opposite of Jeff Van Gundy when Van Gundy kind of lost his mind with the refs. And what is, oh my God, what's that call? He did the opposite. There were calls. that first goal that got taken away today, I still don't understand what the penalty was. Yeah. Oh yeah. That was definitely a penalty. It was like, it was Marino stepped on Odomendi's foot. Was that what happened? But it took like, he sold the shit out of it. Yeah. Yeah. But the Spanish players in the, uh, the box up in the stands, like David Villa and all those guys seem to know like, Oh, they're going to call that off immediately.

1:00:38And Stu Holden's like, what, what, what? Like, yeah.

1:00:42Bill Simmons:Right. Uh, all right. Last one. other than VAR's. Was Turkey the team that they made them flag and didn't give them the point home? Uruguay. Uruguay. What a tough flight home. And then last but not least, VAR. Okay, make the case. Make the case. AD is a defender. Let's hear it. Look, I understand why people don't like VAR. VAR gets so many more calls, right? If you want to debate the offside rule, if you want to debate the red card rules, If you want to debate what is and isn't a penalty and how the game should be repped, that is a fair thing. But VAR is a good application of the current rules and everybody overlooks just how many bad calls were made in the pre-VAR era that would have made ridiculous goals stand or vice versa.

1:01:31Because now... Germany handball, 2002 CR. Yes. Look, as somebody... I've been watching Premier League since 2005 about for the first 10, 15 years of watching it, 80 % of the coverage was about refereeing. Like, it's not like this didn't overshadow the sport the whole time. I think it just takes away from what makes football amazing, which are those cathartic moments where you think something, you know, when something incredible has happened and the crowd goes wild and the players go wild. And then all of a sudden, it's like, well, we're going to go look on a screen for 45 seconds to five minutes.

1:02:08And I just need it to be about very specific things, whether it's offsides or whatever. and I needed to have a cap on how long they can look at something. And I do think some of the fouls that they're looking at, they're looking at in like stop motion, like slow-mo, when it really should be more evaluated as what happened in real time. The Balogun situation being the perfect example of that, right. The other problem that VAR now has is actually VAR has created a problem in and of itself because they're letting plays play out now, right? Flag used to go up in the old days and there wasn't VAR. The ref blew the play dead immediately because the ref made the decision.

1:02:45There is no review. But now when the flag goes up, we watch the next 10 seconds of soccer happen and then the goal and then, oh no, the flag was up. This is Egypt, Argentina. It's Egypt second, right? Yeah. We see that with a ton of goals now. Like a call back because they know they have VAR as the safety net. They're letting extra things play out. So we're seeing more almost goals that again would not have been goals ever because the referee did put his hand up. And so I think we only look at the times when VAR gets it wrong. If you want to, again, if you want to debate offside rule and where should the line be, that's a totally different debate.

1:03:19But VAR, I still think, is good at adjudicating that. Brian Phillips did write a great piece, though, for The Ringer, which I enjoyed reading on why VAR sucks. And I don't agree with him, but I always read him.

1:03:30Bill Simmons:I hate VAR. I think if you're going to have it, VAR's going to catch more stuff, right? VAR is basically, it's the camera at a four-way intersection and you went through and you thought it was yellow, but it was a red and it nails you. If you're going to have VAR, I do think they need to rethink the card system. Because, and the perfect example is when they called the flop and the guy got the red card. What game was that? Yeah, all these games, all these games blended together. But I do think they need, and Balgen was another one, where they almost need a third card where if you get sent off, maybe you get sent off for 50, like a blue card.

1:04:09Bill Simmons:Maybe it's like, oh, he didn't mean to do that, but that was definitely something. So you're gone for 15 minutes for the next 15 minutes. You guys are playing 11 V 10. Yeah. Yeah. There's, there's some sort of better version of this that the two yellows, that second one, which could go any given way and it could really change who should have won the game. And I don't like that. Yeah. I mean, I, I'm of two minds of it. Enzo Fernandez today is a really good example of like, he gets a yellow for descent. He probably should have gotten five yellows over the course of the match. He deserved to get kicked off.

1:04:40Yeah. that Kubarsi play is very bang, bang. I mean, he definitely helicoptered him, but it wasn't like the DeJong tackle from Spain Holland from like years ago when DeJong kicked Xabi Alonso in the chest. It was like a pretty bang, bang play in midfield. But like, he's got to know better. He just got his first yellow eight minutes ago. He needs to know, like if I get sent off in a World Cup final, we are going to lose. And I like watching guys have to play with that kind of calculus. sometimes just because it makes the game have that much more extra layer of drama. It's the 5 ,000 basketball, right?

1:05:16Where it's like, okay, I can't challenge that shot anymore. I have 5 ,000. Okay, now we can attack Wemby. He's got 5 ,000. Yeah, exactly.

1:05:23Bill Simmons:It feels like there's a better way to do the whole system because on the one hand, it's like, whoa, yellow card, red card. This is how we've always done it. You don't always have VAR. So if you're going to change that part of it, then maybe the rest of it should evolve. I feel the same way with the NBA too. There's got to be something better than just flagrant fouls, flagrant one, flagrant two. I do think we can evolve with that. I don't like VAR. I thought it ruined at least 20 of the most fun moments of the tournament where it was like, oh, let's go. Oh, it's not because here we go. I also think if you're going to have the VAR, maybe the offsides, maybe they could be a tiny bit more leeway where it's like, oh, he was...

1:06:08Bill Simmons:you know, this far over past the guy, it's offsides. Like, is it? It's like eight inches. There's a couple of like proposals out there to how to adjust offsides. I don't know if any of them will ever get passed. And if they do, do they get passed by UEFA, but not FIFA or what? But like Wenger... No, that would be a disaster. Different offside rules would be fun to referee, huh? But no, the rule is basically, the Wenger rule is like Arsene Wenger, Arsenal's former manager, wants to make it so that if any part of your body is in line with the last defender, you are on. you have to have so you can be basically like my hand is back here with the guy yeah exactly yeah and I wouldn't be opposed way better but you have to have it you have to have that's a way better one my last loser is Raheem Palmer who refused to watch the World Cup I got one more too Raheem Palmer admitted he would rather watch HBO Boxing on the Smart Channel and that's what he was watching during the days over like World Cup semifinals I thought you liked sports for him.

1:07:08Bill Simmons:Jesus. Would you have AD? Real Madrid is a loser. How does a team and we could do a whole pot on that, but like Real Madrid have Vinny Jr., Mbappe, and Bellingham and they have underachieved dramatically for the last two years. There's fights within the camp. There's literal players fighting each other. I mean, CR did a good pot on this as well back in the spring. The fact that they have all this talent and can't put together a coherent team that can challenge for the Champions League or La Liga is embarrassing. this is why we love team sports like the red sox the red sox have somehow won 13 straight oh god they were under on when the red sox were going to get mentioned in the world cup no crochet roman anthony the next ted williams is out for the whole year i think our most expensive guy is trevor story who hasn't played at least for two and a half months they have so many utility infielders popping in and out you almost don't know who's who at this point and then they have these two guys in the middle of order who are crushing and every starter goes six innings.

1:08:09Bill Simmons:And the team has chemistry now and it doesn't make sense. Sports doesn't make sense and I feel like with soccer, it's got to be the same thing where you can load up all of these. You can basically have an all-star team, but you end up like that one Eagles team that year with Asamoah and all those guys. It's like, oh my God. The Eagles dream team reference. Parlay. Boston Red Sox reference. Yeah. This is kind of why I mean like even though like PSG definitely got nation state funding to build their club up. Like, it's kind of amazing to watch how they had Mbappe, they had Messi, and they got rid of, like, a lot of their star players and now play, like, the most perfect encapsulation of club football and have won multiple Champions Leagues because of it.

1:08:50Bill Simmons:Well, I have one last announcement before we send Dibundo away. This is my daughter's last soccer season this year. This is it. I've been riding with her since 2009. I'm going to get back into Premier League and La Liga in a real way. And I'm doing some real scouting now. I'm trying to figure out who to attach to. And it's tough. It's tough to wade in, especially as old as I am now. Just be like, oh, you are now my favorite team. Like, this is an issue. But I think the answer is pick a team every year and just put a big bet on them before the season. Ah, yes. And I think I'm going to do that this year.

1:09:30Bill Simmons:because, and I don't know if it's going to be Premier League or La Liga, but I'm going to obviously be consulting with both of you and try to target a team and that's just going to be my team for the year. Do you have any residual Tottenham affection from your original, like, your original tournament? It's a good time to buy low, Bill. Let me tell you, we could not be lower. I don't. We could. We could not be lower. We. I do think this could be like a mid-August podcast because I did the column 20 years ago when I picked my EPL team and I had all these different factors. This could be more of just the heart wants what the heart wants.

1:10:06Bill Simmons:It's like, can I just root for Holland for an entire season? Just put a giant Man City bet on and maybe that's just who I root for. I don't know. I'm willing to accept suggestions, though. Some of the guys that jumped out, like, I did enjoy Bellingham, I got to say. and that's probably Messi I can't Messi's out because he's an MOS I can't jump on his bandwagon so I don't know I'm going to need some guidance from you guys well CR I mean you can pitch Liverpool they're a fun team I can't because of John Henry I just can't I can't do it you get your two John Henry teams is Newcastle they didn't get relegated right no they're fine Yeah, but they have to sell their best players to meet financial regulations.

1:10:56They have a hard second apron situation.

1:10:58Bill Simmons:That was the one when I was trying to pick a team. That was the one that really captured my fancy, but it didn't pass the, if I travel to go see the team play, is it a destination you'd want to go? And that was like not great for Newcastle. But I've always enjoyed the fans and the whole thing. Anyway. Jeff Powell loves Arsenal, Bill. So you have two, you could choose another, you could choose Arsenal with Jeff, I would advise against. who's Adam Friedland's team is that Arsenal yeah yeah that can't they seem to be I think they might have surpassed Man United in recent years this is anecdotal but like in terms of their popularity in America yeah who is the most like rooting for the Yankees because that's who I don't want to pick Manchester United I think United yeah who's the most like rooting for the Lakers

1:11:48would that be City I mean City's more like new money. They're more like... So they're like the Dodgers. Yeah, that would be more like the Dodgers, where it's just like every good player winds up there because they just have the money to buy them. And Chelsea are spending money like the Dodgers. They're run by

1:12:05Bill Simmons:a group that own the Dodgers, but they're run very poorly. I'm going to figure this out. I'm going to be consulting you, DiBundo. Thanks for coming on. We're sending you away, and Ciara and I have to do a Matt Damon versus Leo DiCaprio battle once and for all. We're going to figure this out. Thanks, DiBundo. Good to see you. We'll see you on the Ringer Gambling show this week. Vamos a España, Bill. This episode is brought to you by Accenture. When your advertising operations fall out of sync, campaigns slow down, insights get buried, and opportunities get missed. That's why Spotify and Accenture are working together to reinvent the rhythm of ad sales using automation, analytics, and smarter workflows to simplify campaign delivery and access better data across the business.

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1:13:57Bill Simmons:All right, CR. Here we go. It's time. In 2016, when I had my failed HBO show, we did some sort of ad campaign and one of my takes was every leo movie would be just a little bit better if matt damon was in it and people got mad and said i was a boston homer now we're 10 years later and matt damon in the best movie of his life the odyssey a movie you and i have both seen i'm not going to do we won't do any odyssey spoilers in the on this podcast but i might on my wednesday podcast um but damon kind of needed this for the resume this was like the late 30s messy World Cup title to just vault him up to a different thing.

1:14:42Bill Simmons:Let's go big picture Damon versus Leo, and then I have a whole bunch of categories that I didn't prepare you for at all. Okay. Damon versus Leo, go. Alright, so Damon essentially has twice as many movies as Leo, right? He is more of an everyday player, I think likes to play. He'll come and do a cameo, he'll do a supporting actor part. He doesn't have the sense of self that I think DiCaprio does, where there's like, Leonardo DiCaprio knows there are Leonardo DiCaprio parts with Leonardo DiCaprio directors, and he is fine sitting out five years to wait for one of those. I think that Damon has played a bigger part in my movie-going life, and in a weird way, I just have more affection for him because he's more approachable as an actor and as a celebrity, whereas DiCaprio still seems like a space alien to me.

1:15:34but you can't deny that if you take Leonardo's five best movies and put them up against Damon's five best movies, well, I was going to say you can't deny it, but I'm, I don't know,

1:15:46Bill Simmons:building. We're going through this. Obviously I'm team Damon, but I had a whole bunch of categories. And as we go through this, I think you're going to realize, because I think the general perception would be, Oh, Leo's had a better career. Leo's a better actor. So my question is, are we sure? Best movies by decade. Okay. So 90s, 2000s, 2010s, 20s. So Damon now has Good Will Hunting, The Departed, The Martian, and The Odyssey. Yep. Leo has Titanic, The Departed, I would say Wolf of Wall Street, and One Battle. Yep. That's pretty tight. Maybe slight edge to Leo. I go DiCaprio there. Yeah. But not...

1:16:34But it's kind of... It's... By giving them both to Departed, it's a little bit of like a... Of a push. But yeah. I go DiCaprio still.

1:16:44Bill Simmons:Iconic rewatchables. Damon has Interstellar, Oceans... Interstellar, we have not done yet. Interstellar, Oceans 11, Rounders, Born Identity. I'm all doing movies we... I did these categories so that if I mentioned a movie, then we can't mention it again because obviously goodwill hunting is an iconic rewatchables so four more movies iconic rewatchables we haven't mentioned yet interstellar oceans 11 rounders born identity and then for leo once upon a time in hollywood catch me if you can in the aviator i would say or three i think i think damon wins and if you go actual rewatchables we've done Damon we've done 10 Damon we've done 10 Leo we've done 7 we haven't done all the Bourns but I think I think Damon wins that one yeah but this is this speaks to like Damon being willing to be the third the third lead of Oceans you know like and DiCaprio doesn't do that Oscar bait is our next category Damon Ford vs.

1:17:48Bill Simmons:Ferrari True Grit Invictus The Good Shepherd Siriana and Talented Mr. Ripley which is a key part of the Damon case. If you're going to, that probably his best performance in any movie. Leo has don't look up the revenant Django Unchained revolutionary war in the aviator. Yeah. It's Leo. Okay. Yeah. Slight edge or just a full Leo. I think Leo full, full Leo for Oscars. And especially if you look at the totality of his work, he's like more often than not, if he acts, it's going to be considered an Oscar nominee. It's a little like the Kyrie Irving. I play 55 games a year and my stats are awesome.

1:18:30Bill Simmons:Whereas Damon's like, I'm here to entertain my fans for 82 games a year, plus playoffs. Little McHale bridges. Yeah. Awesome team player movies. Damon, Oppenheimer, Margaret, Saving Private Ryan, Contagion and Dogma. Leo, Marvin's Room. And other than that, not a team player. No, it's just Damon. Yeah. Yeah. Damon wins that going away. Leo's not interested in being just, you know, setting some picks, grabbing some rebounds, hitting a couple of threes. Damon's appearing in Steven Soderbergh movies that like 11 people saw. Yeah. Yeah. Action movies that we haven't even mentioned yet. Damon, The Rip, Green Zone, Elysium, and the whole Bourne franchise.

1:19:17Bill Simmons:Leo's basically Body of Lies and Blood Diamond. T.I.A. Damon wins this one. Jesus Africa. Daddy. Fun movies. Just like, fuck it, let's do it. Damon's got air. We bought a zoo in the Oceans trilogy. Leo hates fun. Doesn't really make fun movies. Not interested. He doesn't. There's no midnight run in Leo's collection. No. He's not like, you know what? This would be fun to do this for four months. Noble swing movies. Damon has The Last Duel, Stillwater, Downsize, and The Informant Jerry in Promised Land. Where it's like, eh, took a swing. Yeah. Kudos. Leo has Killers of Flower Moons, Shutter Island, and Gangs of New York.

1:20:05I think Damon takes more swings for swing movies, so I edge him, though I admire what Leo will go and get his name behind. Okay. Making a three and a half hour murder epic. about Native Americans in Oklahoma is like a pretty big swing.

1:20:24Bill Simmons:Next category has got to keep working. Damon has The Great Wall and The Instigators and Leo has Great Gatsby and Body of Lies. Are you a Body of Lies guy, CR? I am a huge Body of Lies guy. Are you really? Yes. Sneaky Oscar Isaac Dion Waiters in that in the first act. Great Russell Crowe phone acting. Really, really fun movie. Yeah, never took with me. I think those Leo's movies are better. Best cameo, Damon has Chasing Amy and then Eurotrip, where he plays the guy with the shaved head, does the song, sings the band, which is really funny. Leo's too snobby to do cameos. What about Damon and Affleck also reprising Goodwill Hunting for the Jay and Silent Bob thing?

1:21:06Right, right.

1:21:07Bill Simmons:Yeah, Damon's happy to pop in. Thor, he shows up everywhere, yeah. Regrettables is going to be a loss for Damon. Leo has Jay Edgar, Celebrity, Man in the Iron Mask, and The Beach. I don't think he would do those four over again. Damon has Suburbicon, The Monuments Man, Stuck on You, although he did meet his wife on Stuck on You, All the Pretty Horses, Legend of Bagger Vance, and Brothers Grimm. Tough one. So Leo wins that. Last one is Younger Movies, movies they made before they became who they became. Damon has... Now, Damon's four years older. School Ties, The Rainmaker, Geronimo, Courage Under Fire.

1:21:50Bill Simmons:Leo's got Gilbert Grape, This Boy's Life, Quick and the Dead, Basketball Diaries, and Romeo and Juliet. And Damon also turned down the Quick and the Dead. So Leo was sloppy seconds. For me, because it's not like I'm like a big, let's throw on Gilbert Grape on a Friday night guy. Yeah. But I really like Basketball Diaries. I really like Quick and the Dead. I'm going to edge it for Damon, though. Edging it because of school ties? Yeah. And Courage Under Fire is really good. And he's really good in Courage Under Fire. Kind of should have been nominated. Damon has a couple should have been nominated, and so does Leo.

1:22:28Bill Simmons:Okay, now we're getting a more fun part. Biggest flaw. So for Damon, I had said yes too much. He has 100 acting credits. And for Leo, it said no too much. She only has 48. That includes all the TV. So I think that's a, I think that's a draw. Um, movies with a guy trying to get home, just trying to get home. Sure. Damon has the Martian interstellar, the Odyssey and private Ryan and Leo just has a revenant. So Damon kills that. I mean, that's like Damon, not really trying to get home and interstellar. He's more trying to stop other people from getting home. Right. Somebody's trying to get home. Yeah.

1:23:06Bill Simmons:Um, comedy. Damon has multiple SNL guests, appearances, including playing Kavanaugh. He has all the Kimmel stuff that's been like a 25-year running joke. 30 Rock got nominated for an Emmy. All the Kevin Smith movies, all his pop-ins and that, and then who he played in Ocean. Leo, no comedy at all. Counterpoint. Has Damon ever been as funny as Wolf of Wall Street? Is there anything as funny in Damon's whole entire catalog that tops Leo and Wolf of Wall Street? Throwing the orange juice. He's really fucking funny. Yeah, that's a good one. That might have... That's at least a draw then. I mean, Damon really has a big body of work.

1:23:50Bill Simmons:Leo's also hysterical in one battle. That's fair. All right, we'll do a draw. Villain. Leo has Django. Yes. Damon. Interstellar. Departed. Talented Mr. Ripley in school ties. That's a fucking Mount Rushmore. Damon, easily. Yeah. And this is a great example of volume over hits. Like, Damon has more at-bats being a villain than Leo does. Damon is a great asshole dick. Yes. Right? School ties. As soon as he realizes Brendan Fraser's Jewish, like, it's fucking on. And then I just watched The Departed. That's a category coming up. Damon's unbelievable in that. I just think he's a better dick. Biggest regret.

1:24:39Bill Simmons:Damon not being able to do Manchester by the Sea because he was booked to another movie and had to give it to Casey Affleck. Leo not doing Boogie Nights, he says, is his biggest regret. But that also would have meant he didn't do Titanic. I bet it's Damon just because Manchester by the Sea, even though he said the right person got that role, and it's really hard to imagine anybody but Casey Affleck in that role, but because Damon is such a huge supporter of Lonegan it's kind of I would have to imagine that's a bigger regret than Leo passing on Boogie Nights to be in the biggest movie ever at the time I agree biggest movie roles turned down Damon the famous avatar had to turn it down because of Bourne Identity and it would have gotten 10 % of the box office if he had done it so cost him$250 million that he didn't do it he also had the Heath Ledger part in Brokeback Mountain that he decided not to do.

1:25:38Bill Simmons:Because he jokes that I was already in a gay cowboy movie I couldn't do two. Leo has The Matrix. He turned down Neo. Talented Mr. Ripley turned that down and they gave it to Damon. Boogie Nights, American Psycho, could have played the Christian Bale part. And Anakin Skywalker in the second Star Wars prequel. So I think he wins that. He wins that. It's pretty good. That's good. it um podcast interviewed talk show presence damon i think damon's an a plus yeah damon also becomes self-aware where he's like i know exactly what you need which is really good anecdotes and i have a billion of them yeah yeah here's my jack nicholson departed story i've never told it before yeah i've i've seen him do it uh television damon has snl behind the candelabra with michael Douglas.

1:26:32Bill Simmons:Sure. Project Greenlight, 30 Rock, Entourage. He has seven Emmy noms for TV. Leo basically has growing pains in Parenthood. So I think Damon wins this one. Box office gross. Damon is higher, but he's made twice as many movies. He's at estimated like close to 12 billion. Leo's at six and a half. Director buddies. Yeah. Leo has Scorsese and Tarantino, I would say at this point. Tarantino has to be a director buddy. Sure. And you could, I mean, obviously PTA, he wanted him for Boogie Nights. He got him for one battle. I think that they have like a pretty close relationship. They only made one movie though.

1:27:07Bill Simmons:I can't count PTA. Okay. Damon as Soderbergh. Like Soderbergh could be like, I'm filming something in my garage tomorrow. Damon's like, I'm there. Yes. Is Nolan an official director buddy for him? I feel like he is. Yeah. He's been in the last three, right? So he's, no, he wasn't in Tenet, but he's done Oppenheimer, Interstellar, and now Odyssey. Yeah, I think that counts. Lonergan, definitely. Kevin Smith. Yeah. So would you go Soderbergh, Nolan, Lonergan, Kevin Smith, or Scorsese and Tarantino? I think I'd go DiCaprio. I think I might go Scorsese and Tarantino. Lifelong famous buddies. Damon has Ben Affleck, Casey Affleck, and Krasinski, I think counts because they've had 20 years together.

1:27:52Bill Simmons:Leo has Lucas Haas, Tobey Maguire, and Eve from Entourage. with all just due respect to Lucas Haas and Eve from Entourage I'm going to go with Damon here okay great role model potential Damon devout family man stepdad friend charity guy for clean water feeding people 100 credits because he's just trying to feed his family Leo is banging models cares about climate change though he does care about climate change a role model for me or a role model for I think Damon has the kind of life I would love to have which it just seems like you work a lot got a cool family screenwriting Damon won the Oscar for Good Will Hunting with Affleck Leo's rent nothing so he wins that okay these are big ones most iconic movie moment that you can describe in four words or less for Damon I have beating Teddy KGB it's not your fault and Tommy has the peeping and I don't know what would be from the Odyssey but it would definitely be something a Philip Seymour Hoffman moment Damon's they're together they're like this Leo's got front of the Titanic dead guy's phone and sleeping in a bear

1:29:18Bill Simmons:what would it be from the Odyssey what's the forward great moment from the Odyssey I think it was plucking the bow when Damon plucks the bow I think Leo wins I think the Titanic thing is more famous than anything Damon did yeah I mean there's like five things in Django where you're like oh my god

1:29:38Bill Simmons:best picture Oscar movies these are movies they appeared in that either got nominated or won Damon had three winners Oppenheimer Departed and Saber, Prev, and Ryan nominated for Odyssey Ford vs. Ferrari Martian True Grit in Good Will Hunting. So he's got three that won, five nominated. We don't know. He probably will get nominated for Odyssey. We don't know that yet. No, I'm saying the movie itself. Okay. Odyssey will get nominated for Best Picture, I'm guessing. And we'll probably win. So that would be the fourth. Leo has one battle, departed Titanic, all one. Killers of Flower, Moon, and Don't Look Up both got nominated.

1:30:16Bill Simmons:I think I blocked that out of my mind. Don't Look Up got nominated? I didn't. Yeah. Okay. Okay. And that's it for him? Once Upon a Time in Hollywood. Okay. No, Once Upon a Time in Hollywood, The Revenant, Wolf of Wall Street, Django, Inception, The Aviator, Gangs of New York. So he has more. Yeah. And better batting average too. So I think he wins that. He also wins for nominations because he won for The Revenant, got nominated for One Battle, Once Upon a Time, Wolf of Wall Street, Blood Diamond, The Aviator, Gilbert Grape. Damon got, he won Best Screenplay for Good Will Hunting, got nominated for The Martian, Good Will Hunting, and Invictus.

1:30:49Bill Simmons:and he's going to get nominated for The Odyssey. He sure will. Still less. I think he got robbed for Talented Mr. Ripley and I think he got robbed. I think he should have won for Will Hunting. He lost to Jack Nicholson in As Good As It Gets. If we're doing that over again, I think Will Hunting wins. I agree with you. But I still think for Oscars... So wait, what were Leo's nominations again? Leo has more. One Battle, Once Upon a Time, Wolf of Wall Street, Blood Diamond, Aviator, and Gilbert Grape supporting and got robbed, honestly, twice for Titanic and Catch Me If You Can. He should have been nominated.

1:31:22Bill Simmons:Was he not nominated for Departed? He wasn't because it was the same year as Blood Diamond. Remember? He should have been. Oh, that's right. I think they had to pick. So he still wins. All right, two more. Range. I'll give you five characters from each. You tell me more impressive range. Rick Dalton Jordan Belfort Hugh Glass from The Revenant Billy Costigan and Jack Dawson from Titanic for Leo Damon Odysseus Colin Sullivan Tom Ripley Will Hunting and Mike McD I think if you also factor in things like behind the Candelabra and the Informant. I think Damon's got more range, weirdly. Is that a crazy thing to say?

1:32:19Bill Simmons:I don't think it is. I think Leo is very good at knowing exactly what he should do. Doesn't mean his stats aren't great. But Damon, I think, is... I think Damon will try to be funny. He's like a rock band who's like, look, we just can't play clubs anymore. It would be pandemonium. The Stones can't show up and play the Middle East. you know what I mean like they can't play like a 600 cap room they have to go play like arenas because that's where they're and Damon could still like just show up and be like hey yeah I'll be in 30 Rock head to head The Departed that's our last category we debated this we did The Departed we did The Redeparted we talked about who won that movie um so there's three questions who won who had the harder part what happens if they switch roles I think DiCaprio won I think Damon had the harder part I think the movie is still incredible if they switch roles I think that's the answer and I remember I don't remember exactly how we put this when we did the pod but I think part of the part of it was that we didn't totally know Leo had that in him because it was like we grew up watching him as a kid we watched him grow up as a kid and become a leading man and he was like, Titanic, catch me if you can.

1:33:43Bill Simmons:And then we didn't think he could be gritty Boston crime movie Leo. Then he pulled that off at the same time he pulled Blood Diamond. I do think Damon had the harder part though. Damon has the harder part, but Leo shows things like in those therapy scenes. Yeah, he's great. Yeah, he's great. Farmiga where you're just like, this guy is like hearing Jimmy right now. like this is so electric stuff Damon's like really good at being a closeted prick who is is leading a double life and it's a very hard part and the audience is going to hate him for the whole the whole movie pretty much as soon as they find out who he is but DiCaprio is just so electrifying when you watch that movie just fucking kill me just fucking do it just fucking kill me um okay we laid out all the categories um Caveat, if Damon wins Best Actor for The Odyssey, they'll now be pretty even with all this stuff.

1:34:47Bill Simmons:I actually think it's a real conversation now because if you're going most impressive acting career of the last 35 years, I think I would have said Leo. Right? Yes. Daniel Day. I also think that there is like a kind of DiCaprio, when he is in a movie, like that movie is almost guaranteed to do pretty to very well in the box office, whereas Damon has been in some clunkers and his association with the film does not necessarily make it a blockbuster. So when Leo does a movie, it makes you go, huh, Leo did a movie. Like your interest is peaked, but Damon's pumping out three a year and we've kind of learned that every once in a while there's going to be the instigators.

1:35:34Bill Simmons:Yeah, you might go make the Great Wall. Yeah. Right. Every once in a while it's like, oh, it's a Matt Damon quunker. We'll be fine. We'll get him next time. Whereas Leo, every time, there's more pressure on it. This all leads to, I thought Damon, I thought that was the best I've ever seen him in a movie. And I also thought, very similar to The Revenant, without I don't want to spoil anything yet because I know a bunch of people haven't seen it, but just a grueling movie to be in. And Damon's talked about that a lot with some of the interviews that he's done, where it's just like, I don't think this was, I think it was a rewarding experience i don't think anything was fun to me had to lose a ton of money a ton of weight he had there was a lot of stuff on water and um you know you're just basically getting the shake that he had to grow this giant beard hey ages 30 years he has to and you know like that movie is is somewhat segmented where he's acting with certain people who are like man that was a great three weeks of shooting see you later matt and matt's got like six more months you know what I mean like he really was it I mean he's in like 80 percent of the shots of probably one of the most demanding film performances I've ever seen yeah yeah I was thinking like who would have been because I've heard like Van was saying that would have been a better Christian Bale movie which whatever people could have opinions um only one I can think of in the last 30 years that I think would have been as good as Damon in this is is early 2000s Russell Crowe.

1:37:02Bill Simmons:I totally could have seen him in this. So the thing, again, I don't want to get into spoilers about the Odyssey, but it's not a gladiator part. It's got to have two elements of it. It's got to have a guy who's been kept from his family for decades, but it's also a guy who's working through why that is. And a guy who kind of steps on his own dick a couple of times and screws things up for himself and other people. And so it's not as simple as, this is Maximus, he's awesome, and everybody follows him, it's got to be a little bit of Colin Sullivan in there too. A little bit of like, I've made mistakes.

1:37:39And I think that that's what he brings to the role that's so special that I'm not sure Christian Bale necessarily would have. I could see Bale getting very lost in like a method or a look or a voice. And Damon gets to bring all the associations that we have with Damon to that role so that we are like, yeah, you know what? Like I'm cheering for this guy to get back, even though I know one of the reasons or some of the reasons why he's not back is him.

1:38:05Bill Simmons:Right. I do think Russell Crowe could have done it back in the day. Physically for sure. Yeah. It's and more like it's a little proof of life ish, right? There's like a set. Do you think no one was like really thinking a proof of life meets, meets Homa. I don't know why I'm giving him an Australian accent. I liked it. Who else, could have played it? I don't think Affleck could have died. Fantasy and I were talking about this last week when I guest hosted and we were talking about this would have been a very cool Heath Ledger part down the line. Oh, I heard that, yeah. But I mean, Heath Ledger has been dead for 20 years.

1:38:42No, yes, I'm aware. But it could have been at a different time. I wonder if someone like Keanu could have done it, but it's hard to imagine Keanu as a master tactician, which is what Odysseus is. It was interesting.

1:39:01Bill Simmons:The only other one I could think of from the last 30 years was Denzel. Yeah. Which would have been really interesting for all the people that go nuts about the casting of The Odyssey. Yeah, I think Denzel, like the Denzel role, given like how much you could physically expect from a guy his age at this point would have been like, maybe like Menelaus or Akron. The Leguizamo, right? Yeah. Or even Leguizamo. That would have been interesting. So did you think Damon had this in him? I'm trying to remember the last time he's done something so physically demanding. And it's been a while, right? I mean, the Jason Bourne movie.

1:39:42Yeah, I mean, he's in his... I guess he's yoked in the rip and he's got his Odyssey beard in the rip, but it's nowhere close to this.

1:39:49Bill Simmons:it's nowhere here he's in his mid 50s one of the things that I thought was cool about it is it's a little like we were talking about Messi before like you're at the tail end of where you could beat the guy in a movie like this right I think four years from now no way you know and I do think it was important that it was a truly famous actor in the role you know I I'll talk about it more on Wednesday but I just was blown away by the Odyssey I thought it was incredible I think it's also awesome that he and all the things he said about this movie were like this was gonna be it for me doing a movie like this this way like maybe I'll do another Bourne reboot where I'm bringing along a new Jason Bourne person or maybe I'll do another action movie but it's never going to be like hey I need you to get on this ship and you're on the ship man like you're strapped to the mast do you think Leo could have been in this movie?

1:40:40I do but I'm glad it was Damon I really am and I think I think if like what we got out of these 18 months was Leo in one battle and Damon in the Odyssey then we got the right hand dealt to us playing the

1:40:57Bill Simmons:each guy playing the perfect role for whatever their life is yes at this point in time yeah if you're doing the the switches I don't think Damon could have been in Wolf of Wall Street in the same way I don't think it would have been as good no not at all I think DiCaprio brings like that kind of arrogance that Damon often undercuts with like his own like approachability and like his kind of humility that he has. I don't think Damon could have been in Titanic either. I think... I'll tell you what, I don't think that... I don't think... I know that this wasn't a one-to-one, but as an example of what Leo couldn't do, I don't think like Leo could have done The Martian.

1:41:38Necessarily.

1:41:39Bill Simmons:Where he's just by himself for an hour, yeah. Yeah, but where he's also being so funny and like kind of playful. like it seems like he'd be like more like no my garden blew up you know i think damon could have done rick dalton i'm not sure it would have been as good um and then uh on the flip side leo as mike mcd and rounders has my interest it does it's a slightly different performance but i almost think he would have been better as worm with a leather jacket on just being a scumbag i I always wanted to see that version of him. But Damon is Rick Dalton. I think he could have done it. I would have been fun if Damon got to play with Booth and then we had the departed guys back together.

1:42:24Bill Simmons:Maybe that'll happen. And then I don't think Leo could have hopped into Ocean's Eleven as the... Damon will do stuff that I just don't think Leo would have done. Leo's not going to be like, I'll be here to support Brad Pitt and George Clooney on a caper movie. Right. facial hair last category I mean that beard is fucking unbelievable is it better than the Django facial hair I don't I think it is I couldn't believe it wasn't it wasn't a real I couldn't believe it wasn't a fake beard I found that out after the movie yeah he grew it for a year crazy how many times are you going to see the Odyssey in the theater I'm going to go see it with you this week so that'll be two and I'll probably go see it a third time because this is one of those where you're like I really want to see this as many times as possible on a big big screen

1:43:19Bill Simmons:I don't know what our final verdict was I'm just glad Damon's in the conversation I never gave up I think your overall point is that after the Odyssey if it's not Damon could be in the lead and it's pretty close if he's not whose career would you rather have? I was just going to ask you. Would you have rather done 100 movies? I would rather have Damon's. I would rather have been in more movies with more people and had more experiences. But I also get why Leo played it the way he played it. Yeah, well, I mean, there's a lot of yacht parties. Well, true. I thought Leo got a little Scorsese heavy too.

1:43:59Bill Simmons:Would be my other thing. I think Damon spread it around a little more. That's a good point. I mean, you could probably make the same argument that Damon got a little over-invested in Soderbergh, but I think it's also paid off for both of those guys. Do you see any way The Odyssey doesn't win Best Picture?

1:44:20After seeing it, it's kind of hard to believe. It's kind of hard to believe that the whole entire town wouldn't be like, hey, this movie's going to make a billion dollars. Like, we'll never be able to do something like this again. it's pushing the limits of technology and it is really really really great you know it's hard to imagine like an indie studio movie from awards season and people are like that's better and there might be movies that are better quote unquote films but it's really hard for me to imagine you guys going into the Oscars and being like yeah it was nice the Odyssey you can get a bunch of technical awards and I think

1:44:57Bill Simmons:Damon we gotta see who else is gonna to be in that category, but I would say he has a good chance. It was also really cool just this last Oscars to have sitters in one battle and have it be like two movies that lots of people had seen. I think it's good for the Oscars to have it be that way. I liked what you and Sean said about on the pod on Wednesday about the greatest directors embracing whatever the newest technology is and trying to get ahead of it, which was, you know, people like Kubrick. That was one of the things that made him special. I thought the same thing watching it. It was like, all right, there's only 41 IMAX theaters in the country or whatever.

1:45:37Bill Simmons:It's like, all right, cool. But there's still 41 theaters and anyone else who sees this in any other theater is still going to think it's awesome. But if you're lucky enough to see it on one of the IMAX theaters, it's like, I've never seen a movie like this. And if they're smart, they'll do what they did with Interstellar and they'll re-release this, you know, intermittently over the next 10 years because people will turn out to go see this. Yeah, I agree. alright CR how are you feeling about Jalen Brown he hasn't given a press conference yet has Embiid acknowledged him there has been like acknowledgement through Mike Gansey the president of the team has been like Embiid super excited but I I was like pretty surprised that he has not given like the team press conference yet and I couldn't tell if that was because there was like another deal going to in the works where it was like, we don't want to have to have him sit down and be like, I can't wait to play with this person and then have that person traded.

1:46:35Then he's like the backup for the Clippers if they can't get Kawhi. Yeah, but I just find that strange, but otherwise I'm like super excited. I'm so excited to have like a fresh coat of paint on this team.

1:46:48Bill Simmons:The Mavs caught my attention today with the weird three-way trade they were in where Lou Doris had Santa Elena. They get Reese's Shea in Dallas. They use some of their exception for it, which I thought was the smart. I'm not selling my research stock yet. I thought he was on the wrong team. Yeah. I still think there's something there. But it did make me think, I still feel like that's the Embiid team if it ever happens. Dallas. Yes, you mentioned. I have to say that that was, in my time in Philadelphia, that was a take that was roundly rejected. That they would trade him? Yeah, I just think it's like, it would be really weird to do that without seeing Embiid and Jalen Brown together.

1:47:26Now, I know you would essentially want to, like, if you're going to get off of Embiid, why not get off of him before the season starts? But I want to see them give it a shot with this lineup. Did you watch any summer league? Who did I watch?

1:47:43Bill Simmons:Oh, I watched LeBaron. I watched some Philly summer league, yeah. Hugo finally got it going in the summer league. Well, we don't get to... I was excited at 28 the other day. I was like, thank God. we still don't know what's going to happen with LeBron. He's just dragging this thing out and I don't really want to talk about it. Yeah, but did you see like, Silver was like, this is like getting a little bit problematic for schedule making and stuff? Yeah. Yeah. Because if he goes to Golden State, that team's going to be on all the time. Yeah. I mean, it's the only one I don't believe is Philly. Because I just, you know, he's got a 12-year-old daughter.

1:48:20He's just going to be like, hey. If he's got a 12-year-old daughter, he should just go. Move into Philly. Why not? Then is Cleveland really in the cards if he's got a 12-year-old daughter and the most important thing is to be home?

1:48:31Bill Simmons:And she's like a big volleyball player, apparently. But I just... I've had a 12-year-old daughter. I don't think she would have been psyched when she was 12 if... We were like, hey, we're moving. We're going to Philly. Yeah. You're going to make all new friends. Like, I just don't know how well it would go. I still think it's... I've never wavered I think it's going to be Cleveland. It was interesting in the Calci market and the poly market, all the prediction wins all spiked that it was going to be Miami. And it got up to like 55 % on some of them. Was that because of Pat Riley's press conference where he was like, we're still having one big win?

1:49:06Bill Simmons:I don't know. This feels like a long con. I would still bet on Cleveland. I think that's going to happen. I just think they're trying to figure out how to actually get him on the team where they don't have to just pay him the minimum. Right. Because you have to like trade somebody or whatever. I think you should go to Golden State. I'm so bored by him. such an amazing story. I think it would be must-see. I would be so excited to watch him and Steph play together, even if it was kind of like a seniors golf tournament. It would be awesome. I have been rooting for that since April. I hope it happens.

1:49:37Bill Simmons:I feel like it's going to be Cleveland. How was your guest hosting appearance before we go? Did you enjoy it? You know what? Hosting's hard, but it was really fun. It was just when it was like, duh, this is a little harder than it looks. It's one thing to like throw alley-oops to Greenwald for 55 minutes. It's another thing. Yeah. Well, thanks for doing that. Yeah, my pleasure. Good to see you. Thanks for letting me. Thanks to everybody who watched on Netflix. Thanks to Gahal and Eduardo and Jack and everybody behind the scenes. I'm going to be back on Wednesday with one more podcast and then rewatchables pitch.

1:50:09Bill Simmons:And then there's rumors we might be doing a live rewatchables on Netflix a week from Monday. Stay tuned. I'm excited for that one and nervous as well. good to see you, CR. Thanks. Good to see you too, bud. Welcome back. Bye everybody.

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