The Bam Backlash, Kawhi’s Heater, East vs. West, and SGA vs. Jokic, With Tim Legler

22:07Tim Legler:Then now you, the conversation really is kind of like one of those like flip a coin type situations between which conference you'd rather have. Although I still think most of, I would say the top talent is still in the Western Conference. We start listing names.

22:21Bill Simmons:If we were going to play the franchises you would rather be for the next seven years, OKC and San Antonio are one, two in some order levitating over everybody else, right? There's nobody else you would put in that class. I don't think. All the young stars, they have two potentially generational guys as the lead and then picks to even get more guys. So they have to be the top. The next three I would have are probably Boston, Denver, Indiana in some order. Because Indiana, if they can pull off a top four pick in this draft with Halbert and coming back and Zubats and all this stuff, and some pretty good cap management, the Celtics, all the stuff they've done, and then Denver with Jokic and Murray and some really great supporting guys.

23:09Bill Simmons:I think that would have to be the next three. But then it gets interesting because now you're talking about Charlotte, Detroit, Houston, Dallas, maybe Minnesota, Cleveland, Atlanta, Lakers, something there. But I think Charlotte and Detroit, when you think like Detroit had, would they lose 25 games in the world? Charlotte was a mess for 20 straight years. And now they're at least really in the conversation now. Houston might've blown it. You saw them last night. And my big question with them is, I wonder if you gave them true serum, would they do that KD trade over again?

23:46Tim Legler:Probably. I think they would.

23:48Bill Simmons:Okay.

23:49Tim Legler:Yeah, I think they would. I think they would because I really believe they looked at themselves internally last year. And look, I know they played Golden State to a seven-game series in the first round, but they looked at themselves and said, this is just not enough offensively. This is not like a moderate enough offense. Now, ironically, Durant's been great for them, but they play really slow. The Van Vliet thing hurt them a lot just in terms of leadership and organization on the floor. The way they have to start possessions and how deep into the clock they get so often in the course of a game.

24:20Tim Legler:Now, it just so happens, they've got some great mid-range players. Shangoon operates in the mid-range. Thompson with his slashing and cutting and getting the rim. They're a great offensive rebounding team. This is their formula to win, but that's not a modernized offense. But it's better than it was last year because of the Durant factor. Reed Shepard has taken a big step forward. So now they have a legitimate shooter on the floor to close games. So I do think they would do it again. But I just think the loss of Van Vliet and not really filling that and doing that by committee, the way that they bring the ball up the floor, the way they initiate their offense.

24:55Tim Legler:I'm watching them last night. I've been watching them all year. But when you see it again in person, there's just things you notice a little bit more. I'm looking at that end of the floor when they're on offense. and like one eye is going up to that shot clock. And now they've run some action and now invariably the ball gets thrown back out toward half court with like eight, seven, six. And now they're at 40 feet. And now here we go. Let's try to get something out of this at the end. Now it just so happens they've got this guy that can end possessions with great shot making. Now he didn't have it last night.

25:25Tim Legler:Durant looked gassed to me. I mean, they played the night before. He just didn't have it last night and they had a great defensive game plan against him. So it was an anomaly for Kevin Durant, obviously 11 points. But typically, most nights, he can deliver. And it's like, okay, that kind of put a band-aid on that possession. Because Durant hit an incredibly tough shot. It's just not a formula that's going to win enough. But it's still, I think, better offensively than what they had. So I do think they would do it again. I'm looking at that, man, and I'm going, how are they going to beat one of these teams they're going to have to go up against, potentially in the first round?

26:00Tim Legler:You could get a 3-6 Houston-Denver. how are they going to have enough offense in a series I get to win four times I actually think

26:08Bill Simmons:they would I think they would lose to the other three teams um and I agree with where you landed because they didn't know Van Vliet was going to get hurt when they made that trade if they knew if they knew they're going to lose Van Vliet for the year they're not making the trade but they didn't know that at the time and you know what something I've been reminded of this season that I've felt strongly about my whole life and it is not the hottest take ever Point guards are important. Turns out we need them. Like you look at the Clippers. They finally get Darius Garland in there. They haven't had a point guard all year.

26:41Bill Simmons:They had basically James Harden as the point guard for a lot of the year. They traded him for Garland and his hurt. They're patching him to get. I went to the Minnesota game two weeks ago, and Matherin and Kawhi are basically bringing the ball up and running the offense. Minnesota's pressing them at half court, trying to trap them. Garland has been like a revelation for them. and I don't even think he's gotten to where he's going to get to. Like he's just coming back. He's getting his game back. Guess what he's giving them? Fast breaks, alley-oops, ad-lib points where he's driving and somebody cuts and you get an easy layup.

27:14Bill Simmons:Like there's all these things that come with it. And that's what I don't see from Houston this year. Like everything is like, we are doing this. Shangoon, here's the ball, figure it out. You know, and they don't get any fun stuff. They don't really get fast breaks. They don't get open threes. Or the threes are open. They're open for a reason. So I just don't see it with them. Yeah, and you know,

27:35Tim Legler:they're like a low-volume three-point shooting team, which means they clearly don't make a lot either. Their percentage is not terrible. Their percentage is like top 10. But on a nightly basis,

27:45Bill Simmons:that's the thing.

27:46Tim Legler:On a nightly basis, their deficit is like they're like a minus. You know, a lot of nights, like they scored, the other team scored 15 more points from the three. They scored 24 more points from the three. That's tough, man. And when you're talking about a lot of mid-range, free throws, offensive glass, like that's your formula that has to happen for you. You run into teams that do a good job of keeping you to one shot for the most part. Last night, offensive rebounding was not a factor in that game. Denver did a great job. They're a good defensive rebounding team. Not a great offensive rebounding team, but they can keep you to one shot.

28:19Tim Legler:And it was not a factor in the game. Now, Durant is seeing a wall of three guys all night long. They were so committed to having three guys literally in front of him, walling him up. So now he's got to give it up. And so now you're saying, okay, the only chance we have some of these role-playing three-point shooters, let's start with Reed Shepard, who's had a very good year for them and shooting the ball just under 40 % going into the game. I don't know what he ended up, but at one point he was like one for eight from the three. And they were really good looks. Like those are possessions when the teams are committing that much to Durant or Shingun.

28:54Tim Legler:and that ball swung. Reed Shepard, like, you need him to do that. I mean, he's made four in a game a ton of times this year and it's amazing how much better they are when he has those nights. Yeah. So, there is a formula against them that you can force certain guys to be open and you've got a great chance to beat them. Who's the best point guard you've ever played with? Hmm. Well, I was at very, very brief time I was in Utah, but so I'd go John Stockton. And I just missed Jason Kidd in Dallas by a year. He came in the year after I left. Rod Strickland was a great player and a great talent. Played with him in Washington.

29:30Tim Legler:I played with Tim Hardaway in Golden State. Wow. And he was a great player. I played with him, Sprewell, Chris Mullin. I mean, there was a lot of talent on that team. So I played with some great ones. I'd put all of those guys in that category for different reasons.

29:43Bill Simmons:Did you ever play with somebody who you were like, wow, this is fucking easy. They're cutting my food for me. All I have to do is just stick the fork down and eat it. Like one of those type of point guards? like the Nash types?

29:55Tim Legler:You know, honestly, I'm going to give you a name of an underrated, and I should have mentioned him with this other group. He had a very bizarre injury that curtailed his career at exactly the time he was skyrocketing. And for me, as a guy to eat, this was the guy that fed me more than anything else with what he created. It was Robert Pack. Wow, Robert Pack. Interesting. Remember Robert Pack? Yeah, of course. He came to Washington he is he was in the top two i think maybe two or three in the league in assists about mid-season fastest fastest shit built like a brick shit explosive yeah like and you know he was turning the corner and putting so much pressure in early offense that and i love to run i would run to those those those trail like wing threes after he did all the work so we had a great thing going Most people don't know this.

30:49Tim Legler:Robert Pack at that time was in his late 20s, 27, 28, would be my guess. He's having the career year. He's going to probably make the all-star team. And in Washington, we're in Cleveland. It's an off day. We have practice. And this has been like an off day on the road in that era. You're taping and scrimmaging. You're not walking through stuff. So we're scrimmaging, but we had a lot of guys banged up. So we only had nine. so we get an assistant coach Derek Smith jumps in practice we're running some scrimmaging and Derek Smith sets a screen on Robert Pack and basically his knee went right into the side of Robert Pack's knee and it wasn't a knee injury but it was a nerve injury he went down in a heap he basically went back to the room he iced and basically by the next day he could not walk he couldn't feel his foot so he basically missed the rest of the year.

31:46Tim Legler:And it actually curtailed his entire career. He ended up playing with some other teams over the next few years. And I think he might have ended up with the Nets for a brief run. And it was just like, he couldn't really do any of the things he did before. And it was from that injury. But from all the guys I played with that just made it easier for me, personally, Robert Pack might be right up there with any of those guys.

32:10Bill Simmons:Well, maybe a weirdo on the internet it'll make a nice mixtape of Robert Pack feeding you and you hitting open trees. Man, he was so good. That'd be great on YouTube.

32:18Tim Legler:He was so good, man. And he also had this great energy about him. He walked in. He always had a smile on his face. He was one of those guys that was levity in the locker room, more than heaviness, moodiness or whatever, inconsistent personality types. Those guys are tough. He was not like that. He loved to play basketball, and he was a massive talent. So anybody out there, if you're younger and you're listening to this and you're like, Robert Pack, go ahead. Pull up a YouTube video of Robert Pack at his best. Just be amazed what that guy could do.

32:48Bill Simmons:All right, we're going to take a break. Come back and talk about BAM. The Bill Simmons Podcast is brought to you by FanDuel. Your Friday night's just got a lot of ladder because NBA happy hour is happening on FanDuel every Friday from 6 to 7.30 p.m. Eastern. FanDuel's got limited time specials to pregame the weekend. Boosts, bonuses, surprises, all live in the app. I'm really focused on the Clippers Chicago game because I think it's probably going to be a little high scoring I think the Clippers are going to win and I think it'll be a fun game so I'd probably lean toward like Clippers money line some Kawhi over and then the over for the game anyway that's NBA happy hour every Friday from 6 to 730 Eastern only on FanDuel official sportsbook partner the NBA visit FanDuel.com slash BS to get started 21 plus select states are 18 plus DC, Kentucky, or Wyoming.

33:40Bill Simmons:Restrictions apply. See terms at sportsbook.fando.com. Game problem, call 1-800-GAMBLER. Call 888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org slash chat in Connecticut. This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. What makes basketball so exciting? All the superior skill on the court. This has been the case my whole life. The craziest thing, I mean, Wemby, stuff he's doing every game. There's two, three Wemby moments a game. We're like, I don't know if I've ever seen that. The number one thing for me is when he does the screen and roll, he's going to the basket. Somebody throws him an alley-oop and he just catches it and dunks it without jumping.

34:18Bill Simmons:It's an alley-oop, but it's not an oop. It's just kind of an alley. And every time he does it, I'm like, I've definitely 100 % never seen that anymore. It's a superior play. Superior plays aren't just for the NBA, though. Try Michelob Ultra, the official beer partner of the NBA. And a crisp, refreshing, superior light beer. It's the beer of Max Kellerman. He just told me that. Plus, they're giving you a chance to win courtside seats, custom merch, and more. Michelob Ultra Superior is worth playing for. Enter now at MichelobUltra.com slash courtside. Michelob Ultra Courtside 25-26. No purchase necessary.

34:54Bill Simmons:Open to U.S. Residents 21+. Begins on October 1st, 2025. Ends on June 30th, 2026. Multiple entry periods. See official rules at MichelobUltra.com slash courtside for free entry, entry deadlines, and prizes, and details. Bam out of bio, 83 points, more than doubles his career high, which was 41. In the running for a single weirdest and most unexpected NBA achievement of my lifetime, I was trying to think of anything else that was this weird. And I think it would have to, the only thing I can think of that came close was when the Warriors went 140 and 24 back-to-back years when they won 67 and 73.

35:37Bill Simmons:Like, just that that happened, that we thought the 96, 97 Bulls would be this North Star for greatness in regular season. Then Curry and the Warriors were like, yeah, we're going to win 140 games in two years. Like, that was really weird. Thompson and George Girvin scoring the 73 and 63 in the same day.

35:58Tim Legler:Last day of the season. No threes.

36:00Bill Simmons:That was weird. This was fucking crazy because I like if we did a draft and we just drafted who would score 83 points, I don't think he would have been one of the first 50 picks. Um, definitely not. Definitely not. Um,

36:15Tim Legler:definitely. And that's not, and that's not even, that's not some sort of slight against him as a player. It's just, it's the nature of his game. Like you respect the hell out of him for a lot of reasons. And you know, in certain nights he can hit you with a 20 to a 30 point game. I think he had one 40 point game in his career. I believe I read the next morning. Yeah. And, and so, no, that's, that's what we're saying. It's just not his, it's not the nature of his game to be a voracious shot taker and like guy that puts up big numbers. He does a lot of other things to help you win. So you're 50 might be actually a low number.

36:49Tim Legler:It might be, that number might be a lot higher. The number of guys that you would pick and just go, okay, you know, oh, well, Benedict Matherin, like that guy could get really hot one night because he's a scorer. Like all he thinks about is like scoring and attacking. That's not really what BAM does. So you're right. it's a really crazy thing

37:06Bill Simmons:you could have told me like Cam Thomas you could have told me Pascal Siakam you could have told me Peyton Pritchard I probably would have believed it more it did make me think because I watched the whole basically from midway through second quarter on it did make me think that somebody's going to get 100 I have a bunch of takeaways my first one is 100 is going to happen because he didn't even make a lot of his threes and he missed like nine free throws. And there's a replica of what he did in that game that I think somebody else could do who would just hit more threes. And even like one of the best examples of this was the Kobe, like a couple of weeks before he had 81, he had this game against Dallas where he basically had like 61 and three quarters.

37:51Bill Simmons:And he was like 22 for 28 and made all these free throws. And I always felt like if he had just stayed in, he probably could have gotten in the 90 and I wrote a magazine piece about it. And then two weeks later, like basically stay in, go for it if you have the chance. And then two weeks later at the 81, but it did. So my first question is, did this make you think a hundred points is possible?

38:14Tim Legler:No, it didn't. And I'll tell you why now. So to even get up in this stratosphere game, can't be competitive. I think you and I would agree on that yeah like you're not you can't get a guy going for 75 80 in a one possession game because if that's the case right then you got to seriously question what's going on with the defensive scheme of their opponent right so it's got to be a blowout and i still think as a coach i put myself in that spot if some dude is tuning me up to that extent And I'm talking way before that guy gets to 65, okay? I'm sorry, but the ball is going to be forced out of his hands.

38:58Tim Legler:Yeah. It just is. And that's why, you know, you look at, to me, the prototypical player that would have to be someone you look at to get it. Threes and free throws are a big part of it, but it's also the ability to create your own deep shot off the dribble.

39:15Bill Simmons:Yeah.

39:15Tim Legler:And that's as a part of your game, not like a situation where Bam Adebayo takes 22 threes in a game. And I don't even know what the most he'd ever taken in a game before that night, but that's obviously a crazy number for Bam Adebayo. No, I'm talking about guys like Luca and Anthony Edwards and like, and these guys that take a lot of those types of shots. And you come out one night and you dip your toe in the water early. Luca hits five or six threes in the first quarter, which he absolutely could because I always joke that he's the one guy in the league that like the very first possession after the tip is a heat check.

39:51Tim Legler:Yeah. Like he's the only guy that does that. Like immediately, let me see how I feel tonight. So if he comes out and he goes bang, bang to five, six threes and he has a 25 or 30 point first quarter, you're thinking like, man, it could be on tonight. Like he might go for it. I still think that the coach of the other team, the staff of the other team, like those players and like just their pride in general. Like, no, that's, they're not going to let this happen. We are going to make sure, now look, he might even have a 15, 20 point second quarter and now you're at 45, 48 at halftime. I guarantee you that's going to happen at the start of the third quarter.

40:29Tim Legler:Right. So, you know, this was a team they ran into that's clearly like, they're not really trying to win games right now. They're one of those teams that's trying to position themselves for a high pick. And so the competitive environment on the other side was not really there. So Bam out of bio kept doing it and I kept waiting for it to kick in. And they finally tried really late, way too late to try to stop them from getting 81, but it was too late by that point.

40:55Bill Simmons:Yeah.

40:55Tim Legler:Most of the teams are not going to allow a guy to get up in 45, 50 points at halftime without some massive adjustment to start the second half. And now they're just going to have to work way too hard. to get themselves to 75, 80 by the end of the third to give themselves a chance at 100. So I still don't think 100 is going to fall.

41:17Bill Simmons:Luka was the guy I thought of that could do it. Because the same thing, you watch Luka the first three minutes of a game and he does kind of do this to see if he has it. You know?

41:29Tim Legler:I went to a game... Well, that's the thing. The other thing it has to have is mentality. So we talk about, like, you have to talk about, you know, the three-point shooting free throws, obviously just talent overall to get your own shot. but also the mentality. It's almost like what I would call a lack of like, you know, self-consciousness about like, I'm shooting too much. You know what I mean? So you have to have that too. And if you get it going, like to keep going and have teammates that want, Hey man, that's pretty cool. Let's see if we can do something for him. And I still think defenses would not allow it to happen by the, what they could employ against you just to make sure, even if you did give up on winning the game, right?

42:05Tim Legler:We're not going to let this dude, No one's going to do this to our team tonight mentality. That's why I think it would be hard for anybody to get to that level. So I didn't think really we'd see an 80-point game.

42:16Bill Simmons:Well, that's why Bam couldn't make those. Once they really started guarding him on the threes, he's just not that kind of shooter. I think for somebody to do it, I think you'd have to hit 15 threes and you'd have to go to the line at least like 20 times, right? So you're getting like two-thirds of the points basically from threes and free throws. So if you get to 66 that way, then you need to make 17 twos to get there, which is crazy. But if you're, I wrote, I went back and I read the column I wrote after Kobe hit 81, because I watched the game. I had somebody call me and I was watching like basically maybe the last half of it.

42:56Tim Legler:And I watched every, by the way, I watched every play of that game. I just happened to be at home scrolling around and I, there was no reason to be invested in that game. Yeah, it was just a league pass game. I'm just like, oh, Lakers. I like watching Kobe. I'll watch the game. So I actually happened to watch that game live as it was playing out. Right. This one with Bam, I was like, I was actually in Denver. I was eating dinner at the hotel, sitting at the bar, had a bunch of stuff. I was kind of working, preparing for the game, watching. I kept thinking, what was the other game that was on? It was a doubleheader that night on one of the networks.

43:30Tim Legler:Southick Spurs. Yeah, yeah, that's right. It was Boston, San Antonio. So I was watching that game and all of a sudden you get these text messages coming in. So now I kind of put my phone up, propped up my iPads on this side and I'm looking one eye on it. And then basically from the middle of the third quarter on, I kind of just went all in on the heat game. I just watched the rest of it.

43:48Bill Simmons:Yeah. Well, it was funny hearing people talk about the Kobe game because, and I spelled this out in the piece I wrote. You know, that team was built for him to be selfish that year. And he kind of embraced that too. but Odom was the only other good offensive player in the team. And at some point they realized, Kobe, go nuts, be a ball hog. I was comparing him to the guy in Teen Wolf, just having the ball, stealing it from his own teammates, joking about our whole offense is this guy. And he would take 28, 29 shots a game and 12 free throws. And they decided this is our best chance to win, and he embraced it.

44:26Bill Simmons:and there was something kind of, I wrote the phrase inherently selfish because like in the 81 point game, he had two assists, right? He's just out there, he's doing his thing. But it was also riveting to watch because it's like, this guy's basically, this is like watching a video game, you know? And Toronto was trying to do some stuff and send multiple guys and he was just solving everything and just killing them like he had done to Dallas a couple weeks before. the hullabaloo after people thought it was you know it was pretty split it was very similar to the BAM thing like this isn't basketball what is this he chased this near the end is this a good thing like his teammates don't even seem that happy about it there was a lot of like that kind of vibe the BAM thing the teammates were like delighted like they were celebrating like they won the title they really wanted to get it and I think that's what made it so unusual they were like holy shit like BAM's does Bams have the night of his life?

45:27Tim Legler:This is the best. No doubt. And that's the thing. I know there's a lot of talk the next morning. Some people really just hated what they watched and they saw it. And I looked at it differently completely. I looked at it like, if you're talking about a guy that garners the utmost respect from everybody on his team and everybody on the coaching staff, everybody in the organization, that you're happy for something like this, crazy night to happen, it's him. And so all that support behind him. So I'm looking at Spoh, who I've got so much respect for, and I'm going, okay, finds himself in this situation where I felt like he did have an obligation to the player because this is a one-off night, a historic night.

46:14Tim Legler:This guy's got a chance to do something that's only been done a couple of times in the history of the league, he's on pace to do it. It's almost my obligation to help him do it. I was sitting there watching Spoh and I'm thinking, gosh, is he hoping that he makes all these free throws? Because imagine if, imagine if what was going on with, you know, they were fouling to get the ball back and then the Wizards were fouling other players so that Bam couldn't shoot. So he goes to the line and he's got 81 and he's going to the line for these two free throws. What if he missed both free throws? and you got a minute and a half to go.

46:52Tim Legler:And now poor Eric Spolstra, like they have to keep this up now. At that point, you're all in. You're all in to try to get you past 81, I believe. So I'm still going to Spogel. He doesn't really want to be a part of this environment with the weirdness of what we're doing right now, like the basketball part. But I also felt like a lot of love and admiration for his player. And he was trying to help his player have a historic night. It's just like the same thing when I say with teams, the year that Golden State won 73 games. And people are talking about, well, take your foot off the gas. And I'm going, man, I don't know.

47:25Tim Legler:There's something you can accomplish as a group. The greatest record in history of the league, and you have a chance to do that. I almost feel like there's an obligation to do that. To put yourselves in the record books, man, for eternity. And now, look, it turns out they didn't win a championship that year, and people were pointing at that. I thought there was no correlation there. I really didn't. But it's this situation here. You have a chance. It's right in front of you. Spolster's going to help him do that. His teammates were going to help him do it. And he was able to get it done, even though it looked a lot different at the end of that game than certainly Kobe's game.

47:57Tim Legler:I don't know what Wilt's game looked like at the end of that game. So I don't know what that looked like. But that was a strange end of the game. A lot of people had a problem with that. It was a very controversial topic. All of these games have that, though.

48:09Bill Simmons:I remember when Larry Bird tried to score 60 against the Hawks, and they were trying to foul to get the ball back at the end. Spolster had, I don't know if you saw it, he had a press conference saying, he's like, I apologize to no one. He was like, look, we had a chance to do it.

48:23Tim Legler:That's exactly what I would expect him to say, 100%. And I love that. I do. And like I said, for me, he's one of the guys that represents the gold standard in this league for coaching. And a guy that I would pick if I had any 10 players in the world to coach, whether it was like eight-year-olds or the Olympic team or a foreign team or an NBA team. And I had one month to prepare. Eric Spolster's fine by me if you want to go with him to coach that team. And it might be who I would pick. So I have so much respect for him. I'm glad he said that. There's one other point I want to make about this, that we talk about profile of player that it would take to do something like this.

48:59Tim Legler:There is another component. Strength and stamina. Yeah, right. So look at the guys we're talking about. Kobe, maniacal. Maniacal with his stamina and his drive. And that was adrenaline for him. the competitive adrenaline, you have to have it. You know, you look at a guy like we talked about, Luka. The strength to do it. Well, I'm saying the physical strength to be able to take that many shots and not get worn out. I don't think Luka would get worn out if he had one of those nights going. But the reason I bring it up is look at a couple other guys. That would be really tough for a guy like Curry.

49:38Tim Legler:Right. Okay, you'd have to make 23s. And then you're still 40 points short. Where's that coming from? Okay, we'll give you 10 free throws. Can you still go make 15 other shots with all of the running and the dribbling and like he's 6 '4", he's kind of slightly built and like it's a lot of contact. Wemby, what about Wemby? Same thing.

50:00Bill Simmons:He'd wear down.

50:00Tim Legler:Like that's a lot of physical toll like oh, that guy is built like that and like the amount of contact he'd be facing all night. Now look, one thing he does have going for him, he could shoot a three whenever he wanted to even over double teams and get it off. So if he wanted to shoot 30 threes in a game, he could. And no one could really stop that unless you just flat out put three guys on and try to deny him the ball. But I think that other component, that's why I got like Harden would be a good candidate. Like when he was in Houston, because he could make 10, 12, 15 threes. And he could also get to the line 15, 20 times.

50:33Bill Simmons:Yeah.

50:33Tim Legler:And make some floaters. And like he has the strength to play that way. And foul the other team out. For an entire game.

50:38Bill Simmons:He could foul out like the top four segment. So a lot of people are asking me the last two days how I felt about this. because they know I care about the history and stuff. First of all, I love when the guys go for it because ultimately it's a stupid regular season game. And as you said earlier, when you have a chance to make history, you should go for it. Like I remember Carmelo took himself out of a game when he had like 62. It is like his peak with the Knicks. He took himself out. I forget how many minutes there were. It was like five, six minutes left. I was like, dude, stay in. Like this is it.

51:11Bill Simmons:This is your one chance. when they, every time for the rest of eternity, when somebody else is in a situation like this, they show all the names and you could be one of the names. Like that's, that's cool. Nobody will remember the circumstances, but the biggest thing to me, and this is when people are like, well, that's bastardized in the game, what they did at the end, Miami, like guess who's bastardized in the game? Fucking Washington. Watch these teams that tank and, you know, trade for guys that are injured or come up like what Utah's doing in Sacramento. Like, hey, is there a surgery you need?

51:44Bill Simmons:Because you should get the surgery now while our season's still going on. Like, we have eight teams in the league that are completely bastardizing every aspect of this season for ticket holders, you know, for competitiveness. We have games where teams win by 40, 45, 50 points. So I'm like, guess what, Washington? There's 30 NBA teams. You're all professional athletes. You're all getting played. Fucking stop the guy. Don't whine about it. The rest of the league can't be like, oh, this is better. These guys are professional athletes. You have a job. Go stop it. He's got 70. Don't let him score anymore.

52:22Tim Legler:Here's the other point. Let's go back. Let's go to the start of the game. Okay, I understand where the Wizards are at. Yeah, how does Bam have 30 and a quarter? Bill, not only did he get 30 and a quarter, did you notice their starting lineup? oh I noticed this is this is this is so and I'm not knocking these guys but I'm just saying no Tyler hero no Tyler hero no Norman Powell I'm talking about from a from a from a game plan I understand even if you're not trying to win just from a game plan you're you're a professional team it's Bam Adebayo Myron Gardner Pelly Larson Davion Mitchell and Yaka Chonis yeah maybe guard Bam Maybe Bam is the guy that you're looking at on the whiteboard going, you know what?

53:07Tim Legler:We probably want to run an extra guy at Bam. Right. Because they don't have Hero and they don't have Norman Powell primarily. They were giving them wide open threes. It's like this is the only score they have. Right. And even if that played out the way it did and you're going, well, who's expecting Bam to come out and shoot like that early in the game? I got news for you, man. The huddle between the first and second quarter, maybe then is a good time to address this. Or I got an idea. How about when he's up to 55 or whatever he had at halftime? Maybe at halftime you go, you know what? I think Bam's feeling it.

53:48Tim Legler:Maybe we should run an extra guy at Bam. Or how about when he's at 65, approaching 70, you finally go, you know what? That's it, line in the sand. He's not getting any more. But they didn't really. until it was obvious that he had a legitimate shot at 80 points. Now it was like that's when they started full court, two guys denying him, and all this crazy stuff started playing out. But that should have taken place way before that. Way before that. Just from a pride standpoint, look, your team, Washington, they've got 16 wins. Do you also want your team to have that? Seriously, do you want them carrying that around too?

54:29Bill Simmons:No, these guys, and we saw this with Philly during the process. You're just teaching. It's like, oh, this is all going to be good because when the draft comes, we're going to top four pick. Everybody you have on your team, you're just putting a stink on. And I was saying this during the process with Philly. You're teaching these guys that losing is okay. Skipping games are okay. You have a coach. I was watching Will Hardy last night. They're playing the Knicks. Utah's beating the Knicks in third quarter. And it's like, they're trying to lose. And it's like, oh, this will be fun. And how are they going to end up losing by 17?

55:01Bill Simmons:The Knicks flipped the game, I think by like 27, 28 points. And they're cutting to Will Hardy. And he's just kind of like, you know, it's like, I don't even know if Will Hardy is a good coach. I know that if E-May had left the Celtics and Will Hardy wasn't already at Utah, Will Hardy would have been the coach because he was the number one. Right. He goes to Utah instead.

55:20Tim Legler:Will Hardy can coach and he's one of the really bright young minds.

55:24Bill Simmons:I'm just saying we haven't seen it on them because they're not letting him coach.

55:27Tim Legler:Because they haven't just turned him loose and going, hey, man, every night, go try to win. Right. But I'm confident when that opportunity comes for him, whether that's in Utah or somewhere else, I hope so. Or wherever it is, I think he's going to be able to prove that when he's in that environment.

55:41Bill Simmons:Three straight years of watching him basically call off the dogs when they have a chance to win in February, March, April. But anyway, with Washington, when I watch these teams, I'm like, you know what? We should be trying to embarrass these teams. It's embarrassing to watch this. It's embarrassing that they're charging full ticket prices for it. And all of these dudes, like, I just don't understand how this helps Washington long term to just be humiliated by Bam Adebayo. And I hope it keeps happening because maybe this stuff will change. I don't know.

56:11Tim Legler:It sounds like you and I are in agreement then. I had, like you, it sounds like I had far more problem with what Washington was doing than with what Miami was doing. Far more problem. Yeah. Okay. Because that's how I felt. And I was actually a little bit surprised at the volume out there the next day or even that night. But certainly the next day, this was a talking point everywhere of how many people were like so upset with like what the Heat were doing. I have a much bigger problem with what the Wizards did. And I actually totally get where Eric Spolster was coming from the organization. And this is a guy that's revered and he plays the right way every single night.

56:48Tim Legler:and he had this crazy start to a game and they decided to go for it against an opponent that was going to be willing to let that happen for the most part. So go for it.

56:59Bill Simmons:And everyone has amnesia with everything that's happened in the past. And anytime somebody has chased points or any of this stuff, the game usually degenerates down the stretch like that.

57:09Tim Legler:So let me ask you this question. Last one on this for me. So then the other thing that people were talking about was just like that full screen. Do you have a problem now with the full screen that says, Wilt, Bam, Kobe, when you put those three numbers up there? Because I just don't understand why people are so upset about that. And there's a lot of people out there. Because I'm just not, man. It is what it is. It's the nature of the game. People are going to break records. They're going to put up numbers. Like, lists change all the time. And so that was like, felt like a lot of people, like, that was their problem.

57:43Tim Legler:Because it was Kobe Bryant.

57:44Bill Simmons:No, the Kobe thing that like, and he was a big Kobe fan. I actually was wondering if he got 81 and he was going to leave and be like, I'm going to share 81 with Kobe. But he was like, nope, breaking it. For the full screen thing. I like it because years from now, every time we'll see, he'll be like, oh my God. Remember when Bam out of bio 83 points? I think it's going to be actually a fun wrinkle. And by the way, this is what makes basketball great. We have these seasons that are too long. weird shit happens during the season. Scott Skiles had 30 assists once. I was in that game. Bill Russell had 55 rebounds in a playoff game.

58:25Bill Simmons:I forget, George McGinnis had 420 turnovers in a season. There are these great weird numbers. That's part of what makes basketball great.

58:34Tim Legler:I called the NBA's only 30-20-20 game in history last year. I was on the call for that Jokic game.

58:42Bill Simmons:Now that was a good one.

58:43Tim Legler:2020. I never thought I'd ever see. I was just like honored when the game ended that I was a part of that to watch that. I never thought that was possible for a player to do that. That's the high end.

58:54Bill Simmons:Well, I think the difference with Kobe versus Bam is it's weird to say it, but Kobe was just so good during that stretch that there was a real artistry to game after game. You felt like, look, they're building this around him being able to maybe score 50 to 70 every night. You just don't know when it's happening. He was weirdly must-watch TV, even though the team was relatively not that happy. I don't think Phil Jackson loved it. But they won 46 games basically with two offensive players and no bench. And it was just because of what he was doing night after. I voted for him for MVP that year. I thought it was the best thing anyone did that year, even though I didn't really love it as a basketball fan who loves values like team basketball and shit like that.

59:38Bill Simmons:That was the year that

59:39Tim Legler:he had that outrageous... It was like... a super long streak of 40-point games, right?

59:44Bill Simmons:Was that that year? No, that was earlier. This was the year he averaged 35 a game this year. So I don't know. I thought it was fun, and it mixed up the season. It was fun to watch people get so mad about it. Get mad about the tanking. Get mad about teams putting out shitty lineups and not knowing how to play defense. Yeah, man.

1:00:02Tim Legler:I hear you, man. There's a lot of other things you could get upset about right now as opposed to a guy having an epic night and then maybe, not maybe, He definitely sort of bending the end of that game to try to allow him to get that thing across the finish line to the number he was trying to get to, which was 82 at least. And the guy, but the guys, you know, the guys start to the game, dictate, and he even said it. Like, well, when did you start thinking about like this? You know, you could go for something like this. He goes, you know, after the first quarter when I had 30, I kind of was thinking like I could do some special things tonight.

1:00:37Tim Legler:You know the other thing?

1:00:38Bill Simmons:Yeah, absolutely. The crowd, that Miami crowd, which I've seen good versions of it, bad versions of it, especially during the regular season. That crowd was delirious down the stretch. That seemed like that was the most fun basketball game you could have gone to randomly. There's some great deals out there in the NBA wilderness that are ripe for the taking, which we're going to be diving to in this special segment. It is called Best Deal Ever Hall of Fame, brought to you by Domino's. Now they've got their own best deal ever going. any pizza, any toppings for$9.99. Let's see how it stacks up against the best deals in the game right now.

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1:02:35Bill Simmons:Best deal ever. They wanted me to be a pizza GM. They wanted me to assemble my perfect pizza lineup. I could go up to seven toppings or I could do a five topping rotation. They wanted me to tie it in a basketball. Obviously, this is right at my wheelhouse. Number one topping, extra cheese well done. That's Jokic. It's just, you can throw it on any team, any situation. It's going to make the pizza better. Pepperoni is Wemby. Mushroom, SGA. just does the job. You're not going to be telling your grandkids about it, but it's put up 32 a night. And then ham and pineapple, I'm putting those two together.

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1:03:49Bill Simmons:Minimum purchase required for delivery. Prices, participation delivery area and charges may vary. This episode is brought to you by Alexa Plus. Just say the word and the all new Alexa Plus will do more so you don't have to. Chat naturally about anything from scoring concert tickets to brainstorming your next travel destination. Alexa learns your style, anticipates what's next and makes it happen. And now Alexa Plus is free with Prime on your Amazon devices like Echo and Fire TV. Learn more at Amazon.com slash Alexa plus. I want to talk about Kawhi Leonard quick. I have a couple other things for you.

1:04:24Bill Simmons:Kawhi Leonard, they're 29 and 22 when he plays. He's averaging 31 a game in those wins. The Clippers are 27 and 11 in their last 38. During that stretch, he's 30 a game basically and almost a 50, 40, 90 guy. And... He was so good last night against Minnesota. You missed it because you were doing the other game. He just killed Minnesota. I actually think this is the best I've ever seen him play. So I was like, man, this is a little unusual. He's 34. He has all these knee injury stuff. I wonder how many times somebody has averaged 28 a game who's been 34 years or older. How many guys do you think have done this?

1:05:05Bill Simmons:If you had to guess.

1:05:08Tim Legler:34 or older. average 24 years old or older

1:05:11Bill Simmons:28 a game man like you think there would be a few guys right I'm gonna say five or less Michael Jordan once Bernard King did you play with Bernard that year 91 Wizards 91 Bulls ago Steph Curry in 2023 LeBron twice and Kevin Durant and all of those guys did it at 34 except for LeBron, the two years, 37 and 38. And it was like, wow, this is more unusual than I expected. And this is why I think when we talk about titles and age, I don't think we do a good enough job with it because the league just favors young people, especially in April, May, June, right? You're just better off having Shea at age 26, 27 than you are having Kevin Durant at age 37.

1:06:03Bill Simmons:you're better off having Jamal Murray in his mid-20s than you are having Steph Curry in his mid-30s once we get to a certain level but that Kawhi like first of all I never thought he'd be in this position where it just seemed like he was going to be hurt not hurt just back and forth the rest of his career but then being at this level almost being a 50-40-90 guy for two-thirds of the season I think it's amazing stuff he single-handedly saved their season

1:06:28Tim Legler:he's an he is an absolute machine he is as machine-like on the nights he's playing well as any player I've ever seen. It's so automatic. There's like zero margin for error on his jump shot because he gets no higher than eight inches above the rim.

1:06:45Bill Simmons:It's like straight.

1:06:46Tim Legler:And it goes straight and it hits the inside back rim and goes straight down. He's one of those guys that like, and I used to try to do this when I would like give like a shooting talk or something where like I'd always make a joke like I trained the ball to come back to me because you're shooting it perfectly. That's what it does. It goes in, hits the rim, and with that English comes right back to react. He does it in games with two dudes trying to stop him. And it's so automatic when he gets on these rolls. And I love the fact that Anthony Edwards said what he said about him after the game because he's an older player.

1:07:24Tim Legler:It's been a while since Kawhi won that championship in Toronto. Anthony Edwards is still so young, trying to figure his way. He gave him so much respect after the game and said, man, if this dude did not get hurt and had the injuries he's had, you're talking about one of the all-time great players in the history of this league. He was talking about from his experience playing against the guy at this advanced stage after all the injuries. That's how much respect Anthony Edwards has for what a load this guy is to guard, how hard he is to stop. His strength, his balance, it's just too much. The way he dominates than at 15 to 18 feet, man, all night long.

1:08:02Tim Legler:Like that's his wheelhouse. And then he added the three-point shot later in his career. But imagine, Bill, imagine what this guy's career would look like if he didn't lose basically, what is it, about five full seasons to injuries?

1:08:14Bill Simmons:Right. Zach and I did a deep dive.

1:08:16Tim Legler:And he's only 34.

1:08:17Bill Simmons:Yeah, Zach and I did a deep dive on him a couple weeks ago on my Sunday pod. And there's also the weird part where the first four years of his career have no parallel to what happened next, where he's basically like a 12 points a game score. He's like a three and D guy. And then all of a sudden now it's 2026. And he's got like as, as much of a bag as any forward in the league, right? He's scoring all these different ways. If you're just talking about pure talent and LeBron is that, if you're just talking pure talent forwards this century and LeBron's first, it's probably him versus KD for that second forward spot.

1:08:56Bill Simmons:Right? pure talent wise, if it's like I could have the peak version of either of these guys for one season, who would you want? It's a pretty good argument. Oh yeah, no, you might want to, you might kind of bet might be 55, 45 toward Kawhi that I would lean, you know,

1:09:13Tim Legler:I would get a lot of, and I'm glad you kind of injected him into that conversation with those guys. Cause most people would think that's beyond the realm, but it's not man. Kawhi Leonard is that good. He deserves to be in conversations like that. He's doing it again this year. And that team has been really interesting. And look, they went through the Harden thing. Nora Powell left and Harden comes in and Harden's gone. And they go out and they get Garland. It's a really nice pickup. And then Matherin's been great for them. Matherin has given them kind of exactly what Matherin was at his best for Indiana.

1:09:43Tim Legler:But they weren't all that frequent those nights. So if they want to get into a best of seven, and man, wouldn't that be interesting if you get Kawhi Leonard and these Clippers in a best of seven as a six seed or something? No way. Or a seven or eight seed, whatever. Imagine playing them with Koilin.

1:09:58Bill Simmons:The seventh seed, who would they be playing as the two seed? San Antonio. The team that boos him. The fans that boo him every time he gets the ball now, eight years later. They boo him every time he gets the ball. I think that series would be awesome. First of all, they were 6-21. It's nuts that they're even in the conversation. This is even more nuts because I have the Clippers tickets. I have some Clipper fans in my life. and everybody's like, man, if we had Niederhauser, we'd be able to potentially pull a 2-7 upset. This kid Niederhauser out of nowhere became important. They're one big short.

1:10:34Bill Simmons:They're like 15 minutes of a big guy. They basically, they're relying on Brooke Lopez, who's old, way too much. And they can go small ball. John Collins is out now. He's coming back. But Matherin gave them something that, a phrase that you could not say on your ESPN broadcast, but I can say here in a podcast. He gave them some fuck you. He's got some fuck you energy that combined. Chris Dunn has that too. John Collins weirdly has that. This team is, and then Kawhi is like, nobody even messes with him. He's like Clint Eastwood. He's over here. This team's got, there's a feistiness to them now that I don't think they had before.

1:11:13Bill Simmons:And in a playoff series where you just have to go four and three, I don't know. I don't really necessarily want to see Kawhi. Now, he could get hurt tomorrow. Who knows? No, man.

1:11:24Tim Legler:Yeah, no. Ultimately, Oklahoma City, San Antonio, and they can only get as high as seven. So they could be a seven or eight because they're not going to be able to get into the six. So you're talking about playing your Oklahoma City or San Antonio in the first round. I'm not thinking the Clippers are going to beat either of those teams. But man, would that be compelling and interesting to watch Kawhi Leonard go up against those two teams if he's feeling healthy and right. Because even last year against Denver, he put up numbers in that series. and his efficiency has always been there. So just to watch him take on that challenge with a Clippers team that basically throw out the first third of the season and look at their record the rest of the way, that would be a really interesting first-round series for either of those teams.

1:12:05Bill Simmons:I want them to win the title so we can find out if Chris Paul got a ring and a playoff share or not. I think that would be a fun sub-putt. This episode of the Bill Simmons Podcast brought to you by Spectrum Business. Fast, reliable internet means everything for your business. And even this podcast. That's why I trust Spectrum Business. They keep companies of all sizes connected with internet, advanced Wi-Fi, phone, TV, mobile services, plus 24-7 US-based support. Millions of business owners already trust Spectrum Business. So visit spectrum.com slash business to learn more. Restrictions apply.

1:12:39Bill Simmons:Services not available in all areas. This episode is brought to you by Marvel Television's Daredevil Born Again Season 2 streaming March 24th on Disney Plus Charlie Cox and Vincent D 'Onofrio are back and Kristen Ritter makes her highly anticipated return as Jessica Jones in an all new season as Mare Fisk tightens his grip on New York City he makes Daredevil as his top target Matt Murdock fights from the shadows hoping to bring down Fisk's corrupt empire and reclaim his city. Don't miss Daredevil Born Again Season 2, streaming March 24th only on Disney+. Hey, All-NBA. Got a month left now. Yep.

1:13:22Bill Simmons:Jokic, SGA, Cade, and Wembe are going to be All-NBA, guys. I think those are four. That fifth spot, I got Kawhi, I got Anthony Edwards, I got Jalen Brown, I have Luka, who's really come on, I think, the last like maybe 10 days or so. Maybe even some Donovan Mitchell. Who would be your fifth guy if you're filling out a ballot right now? I'm giving you Jokic, SGA, Cade, Wemby. And by the way, you can bump Cade if you want and take two from that next group. Who would you have?

1:13:55Tim Legler:No, I wouldn't bump Cade. Cade's in. To me, Cade's a lock. In for me as well. He's a lock. So that last spot. Here's what's interesting. If you ask me this question, three weeks ago with still a lot of uncertainty around Tatum's return, I would have thought Jalen Brown had a great chance. And he may still. But as Tatum continues to get his legs and his minutes and has more of an impact on the game, and he's not as deferential offensively as he's been, as you would expect him to be to this point, it's just a natural cannibalism of some of these big nights that Jalen Brown has had to carry that team.

1:14:39Tim Legler:And it's weird because it's like right here at the end of the year, it's actually going to hurt him a little bit. He's absolutely had a season worthy of first team all NBA. There is no question about it. And if Tatum didn't come back, I think there's a really good chance he gets that last spot. But now I think there's going to be, especially like, you know, imagine if they win some games now and like Tatum does like kind of find it and he's got some 25, 30-point games, it feels like it's going to hurt Jalen Brown, even though it probably shouldn't. Because they wouldn't be in position to do what we said at the beginning of this broadcast, which is, hey, man, this team might be able to get to the finals if Jalen Brown didn't position them to be there with his play by the time Tatum came back.

1:15:21Tim Legler:But it is going to hurt him, I think. So that's why I think a guy like Luka, if the Lakers can continue to play better and they put together a 7-8 game winning streak or something like that with his numbers and leading the league and scoring all that, like, Luka's got a really good chance. But I think Jalen Brown, because he plays both ends at a higher level defensively than Luka, and what he did with that roster to get them really into the second seed, really with his offense carrying him every night, he's got such a claim to it, man. But I think the Tatum thing might hurt him here down the stretch.

1:15:55Bill Simmons:Yeah, I had Jalen for that last spot for now, and I feel like he's going to get passed for all the reasons you said. But I also, it's weird because we don't have anything to, we have to find things to talk about for six months during this season. There was some advanced metrics of like, well, when he's out of the lineup, what about this? And I'm just telling you, like, first of all, they designed that bench unit to come in and be like these crazy defensive pit bulls, right? And they're going against teams' benches. And that's one of the reasons the bench stats were so good. That's why Hugo has like one of the best on off ratings in the history of the league.

1:16:29Bill Simmons:Um, but with Jalen, I just thought the red, the, the durability and the consistency of like, put it on my shoulders. I'm showing up night after night. I don't think we value that. I keep saying this on my pods. I don't think we value that enough when we, when we look at this stuff, just knowing somebody is going to show up night after night when you don't really have a lot of guys. I don't think you can put a price on that.

1:16:53Tim Legler:I completely agree, man. Toughness and just competitive professionalism is a skill.

1:17:02Bill Simmons:Yeah.

1:17:03Tim Legler:And not too often we call those kind of things intangibles. It's a skill, man. And Jalen Brown has it. And I was having this conversation with somebody a couple of days ago. The Tatum thing. You think it's any part of Jalen Brown a little bit, just from a player that's had this kind of a year, just a little bit, you know, not bothered. He wants to win, and Tatum gives a better chance to do it. But at the same time, I was like, man, that was really fun, like, to show you what I came up. And I said, you know what? Actually, I don't think so, because here's the bottom line. He rang the bell when he was given the opportunity.

1:17:42Tim Legler:He basically showed everybody what his true ceiling is as, like, the top guy, the alpha, the top of the food chain guy on a team. he showed you what he's capable of doing. He dialed his scoring average up to basically 30 points a game with the same level defense, career highs across the board in a lot of different categories. You know, guys that were role players primarily elevated to higher roles to try to give him supplemental offense. They all did it. But if he doesn't play the way he did, they're not anywhere near the second seed. So I think some part, my point being, some part of him probably feels incredible validation.

1:18:22Tim Legler:I got the opportunity. Look what I am. And so now, yeah, he's going to have to give up some of that when Tatum starts to really find his game. Ultimately, it might lead to them playing in the finals and winning a championship again. But so he'll take that because I think now he proved to people, like if he averaged 23 a game and shot 43 % and they had eight less wins, like people would view him like, yeah, he's a really nice number two. What he wanted to prove to people was, no, man, this is what I can look like as a number one. And that's why I think mentally there's got to be a security about Tatum coming back because of what he was able to do while he was out and the validation that he was able to muster.

1:19:05Bill Simmons:I'm glad you put it that way. I obviously agree. He proved whatever the one thing that he probably felt like he had to prove to everybody over the course of his career was I actually did sacrifice the last few years and I didn't get enough credit for it, right? I just showed you what I could do if I'm the number one guy. I think what really struck me these last six, seven days is how happy everybody, including Jalen, was for Tatum. Because this wasn't one of the... And obviously, that goes without saying to some degree, but he was with the team all the time. Sometimes when you'd have Kawhi and some of these other guys, when they're rehabbing, they're just gone, right?

1:19:44Bill Simmons:Nobody even sees them and they're not really around or they want to rehab on their own, then they'll pop in and out. Tatum went on every road trip. He was like on the bench, like rooting for everybody and just was stayed part of the team. And they knew how much time he had put in to get back to where he got back. And I think, I think Jalen, it probably brought those guys closer would be my guess. Like Jalen held the forefront. Now they're back. You did that Cleveland game on Sunday, watching them kind of still trying to figure out how to integrate Tatum back in. And Jalen had that incredible third quarter when it was like, okay, I'm going to take over for these five minutes here.

1:20:21Bill Simmons:And he's just going to be better at that now because he has the reps. So I think ultimately it was great for both of them.

1:20:28Tim Legler:And look, there's a great, I mean, there's a great, great cast to choose from for first team all league. And I mean, all the guys you listed, man, And they can make a claim. I think the guy that's got the greatest argument of that group is Jalen Brown. Based on what they were missing. And it wasn't just Tatum. It's like they reinvented their team to a certain extent. Right. To hold the fort.

1:20:55Bill Simmons:Right.

1:20:56Tim Legler:And not just keep us floating at 500 and hope that Tatum can help us as a six seed run through the Eastern Conference. man, they've positioned themselves to play two home rounds in the postseason as Tatum starts a round into form, and that's because of what Jalen Brown was able to do offensively. So I have so much respect for the guy anyway, but I just have a completely newfound respect for what this guy ultimately represents every night because I've always loved his competitiveness, how hard he defends the challenge. He takes it seriously every night. they don't shy away from putting him on top guys.

1:21:37Tim Legler:They don't worry about keeping him out of foul trouble, any of that stuff. He takes on the challenge. And now the question was, can he dial it up to like 30? Because that's a totally different level of responsibility every night in this league. And he did it.

1:21:50Bill Simmons:Well, it's a little easier for him now too because the Tatum gravity that can pull gravity is the new word of the year this year. But it's just a little different when you have Tatum on that side able to punish smaller guys. I felt bad for Jalen on Tuesday night because, you know, I watched the entire Celtics season. Jalen had it going in that Spurs game and got kicked out. Really, you know, as usual, wasn't getting calls. Got shoved out of bounds. Got mad. Got thrown out by the ref who didn't even make the call. And the shame of it was, like, you talk about missed opportunities with the league this year.

1:22:25Bill Simmons:That had a chance to be one of the best games of the season, right? The Celtics are like, they're resting Tatum, the OKC game. They were ready to throw haymakers at the Spurs. Wemby, their strategy was let Wemby shoot threes, which he made over and over again. But it was really competitive, feisty. You had the Harper brothers both in there. And Jalen was great. And I think he had seven assists when he got kicked out. But I felt like that was going to be a real statement game for him. And the rug got pulled out, unfortunately.

1:22:54Tim Legler:I felt bad for him, too. And I talked about it a lot yesterday, how that all played out. and it was just so unfortunate because of what that game represented. I mean, potentially, I mean, you know, I think if I had to lay money on it today, I would say Oklahoma City gets to the finals, but we just talked about San Antonio's chances. Yeah. They're right there. So potentially, that's an NBA finals preview, potentially. And you got Tatum back for the game. Spurs have been incredible. Like, let's go, man. And it was a close game. It's like, you got everything you could ask for. You're winding down toward halftime.

1:23:27Tim Legler:and then that happens and it just changed the entire second half of the game and it's just it's just yeah just from a just a pure viewership standpoint and like fans wanting to watch two great teams that you have so much respect for their way they play too and like everybody's there too like we got every all the major components are playing man this is gonna be great and it was living up to it to that point in the game and then boom that happens I felt bad for him too

1:23:56Bill Simmons:Maybe we'll get again. We don't need to talk about San Antonio's ceiling because people see what it is now. I asked Zach on, we're trying to figure out on Sunday, who Harper, who I just infatuated by, but this weird game he has where how he uses his body and the post-ups and the slithery stuff on the baseline. I was like, what guard was like this? And the only guy I could really think of was Jason Kidd, how he would do some weird back to the basket and mismatch stuff and was physical. And, you know, he's Harper five years from now is going to be 15 pounds heavier. He has this footwork slither stuff already, but he's also going to be bigger and more physical.

1:24:36Bill Simmons:And I just, I don't remember a guard quite like him. Plus he's left-handed on top of everything else. Do you remember anybody that reminded you of him?

1:24:44Tim Legler:No, I like the comparison of kid with the, with the only exception being this, because I like that when you talk about like the physicality of their game, the strength of their game, like the way that they could like manipulate, read leverage. Like when they get, they get a guy on their back, they can read leverage and know which way to spin. And they never make mistakes. Every time the guy leads one way, they're going the other direction. The only difference is like kid was doing a lot of that two steps ahead, mentally knowing he was going to make a play for somebody on the tail end of it. Yeah.

1:25:12Tim Legler:Whereas Harper wants to score, right? Like Harper is getting you in that spot. He's going to score. I am so impressed with him, by the way, another guy and, And they remind me of each other in a lot of ways as A.J. Mitchell because they're both kind of similarly built. They're left-handed. They're very hungry as scorers. And LKC just got him back, and he was incredible in that game on Sunday against Denver. I mean, he acted like he hadn't been out at all. He'd been out forever, comes back in, immediately picks up where he left off. Two really, to me, top-shelf lead guards. don't know when they're going to get their own team where it is 35 minutes a night and I got the ball because obviously that's going to be tough on OKC when you got SGA and Jalen Williams.

1:26:00Tim Legler:And then you look at the young guards with Castle and De 'Aaron Fox and San Antonio. So I don't know when if it's going to be with the organizations they're with now. But at some point, both of those guys are going to be guys that are playing 33, 34 minutes a night on really good teams and they're at the starting point guard and they're doing some serious work in that role whenever that's going to happen. That's how much respect I have for both of them.

1:26:22Bill Simmons:Yeah, Harper's inevitable. A.J. Mitchell sounds like GM Tim Legler taking over like the Pelicans or somebody would be like, we're going after Mitchell. I'm telling you, man. We're getting him.

1:26:31Tim Legler:Yes, I'm telling you right now. I'm telling you. I think he's got it in him. Now, look, I don't know whether it's, you know, his ascension here happened a little bit later. He's older, a little bit older. So it's a little bit of a different path for him, right? But it doesn't matter. He's still young and it's happening now. and he opened up everybody's eyes in that organization with what happened this year and everybody around the league, really. So, and everybody I've talked to kind of has the same opinion on him.

1:26:54Bill Simmons:Yeah, I like him too.

1:26:55Tim Legler:This dude can flat out go and he's not phased by big moments. And so that's why, yeah, I just can't wait to see, but you're right. No, there's no doubt about Harper at all. Like, he's going to be a star. I don't know if Mitchell will be a star, but I think he can be a lead guard on a good team in this league and put up good numbers.

1:27:13Bill Simmons:Harper is an all-NBA guy at some point. It's like he will make it on me. I totally agree with you. Probably multiple.

1:27:19Tim Legler:By the way, man, I think Castle has a chance to do that. I agree. If he ever really solves the shooting thing, he's better. But, you know, I'm talking about at some point, that means can you shoot a three off the dribble a few times a night because that's what guards on that level do and shoot it at a clip that at least gets north of 36%, 38%. Like get up in that range with his defense and the way he physically attacks the rim. I think Castle is another one of those guys. There's no telling how good this guy could be in two or three years.

1:27:50Bill Simmons:Well, you're betting on a psycho competitor to fill in holes in his game over the next three years, which he's going to do, right? So stuff he can't do yet by the time he's 26, so he'll be able to do it. The league's in really good shape with these young guys. They have two drafts in a row. I know you're too busy with the NBA to follow college, but there's some crazy guys, not even beyond the top four. There's some crazy scores in this draft and all kinds of things coming. So it's pretty fun. Last question. Did the SGA Jokic game and SGA basically turning into Kobe, in the Kobe Michael, basically just summoning the spirit of those guys down the stretch and hitting these FU threes.

1:28:31Bill Simmons:Did that change your Jokic is the best player in the league at all? Yeah, listen, yes.

1:28:38Tim Legler:I think that Jokic to me was clearly that label. there's no doubt now. It's this, it's, you know, you can lean towards Shea. I have no problem with it. It's certainly a much better debate. I don't have any problem with people that want to say Shea Gildress Alexander is the best player in the league. The stuff he's doing with those type of shots at the end of games, like how difficult those shots are and he doesn't go going both directions, by the way. Like that's, most guys have their favorite direction they have to get to if they know they're going to take a deep step back shot. He can go either direction equally.

1:29:09Tim Legler:He's a very good defender. It's impossible to keep this guy out of the lane. He's about as automatic as it comes in the mid-range. 55%, like that's when you get into those efficiency levels that are just like ridiculous for a guard that takes a lot of contested shots. No, man, he's, listen, I got no problem. Anybody wants to say Shea Gilchrist-Alexander's best player in the NBA, I'm not going to fight you hard on that. I think it's an absolute legitimate debate and it's 100 % subjective. Just come with a good argument, come with your criteria, and state your case, you're not going to be wrong if that's your opinion.

1:29:45Bill Simmons:He's definitely moved into a 1A, 1B situation for me. And I think the question is, which position do you value more? Like it hits that. Like most of the time, the last 15 years, perimeter guys have been the ones that have been driving titles, right? Where you have, every once in a while, you have the Giannis title or the Jokic title. But for the most part, it's guys that have the ball, guys, you know, who are 25, 30 feet from the basket who are then trying to create something. And that's been the best asset to have. That was why in the Luka draft, I was going nuts because I was like, I can't, how does somebody take eight and over Luka when we have already established this decade that the thing you would want the most is an elite perimeter guy.

1:30:28Bill Simmons:This is the number one thing you need. But Jokic is so good. It's almost like he's a perimeter guy, even as a center. I I don't know. It's a great argument to have. I thought that game, that game was like out of like the late eighties was some of the games we would watch with MJ versus bird, MJ versus magic, Isaiah versus Matt. Like, that's what it reminded me of. Just like two great guys at the peak of their powers, just trying to beat each other. And, uh, I don't know. I don't know where that goes in the playoffs. If Denver's healthy, it's going to be amazing.

1:30:58Tim Legler:That's it. That's as good as this league has to offer. What you watched in that game. Let me just, you know, how, how tight it was. the level of shot making, the talent, the way the two teams play and how much you respect the way that they play. It's just fun. And then on top of those guys delivering when they had to deliver. Right.

1:31:15Bill Simmons:Big shots, big hard shots. SGA's last shot kind of pushed off, but I didn't mind it. But that step back from going to his right, which is a harder shot for a ready. Way harder. Last question. Are you happy with the commander's offseason?

1:31:33Tim Legler:so I feel pretty good about what we've done but at the same time this renewed cynicism kicked in that I had shed I had shed all of the cynicism because of how much faith I had in Adam Peters coming in and changing the head coach the coordinators obviously you know you get your franchise quarterback. I had shed it. You know what? All of that stuff that I've been carrying around for 25 years, like it's gone. It's kind of crept back into my psyche just because of how bad it was last year. And they're going to chalk it up mostly to injuries. It was a lot more than that. A lot more than that. I was scarred by what I watched last year.

1:32:18Tim Legler:How do you go to NFC championship game and then win five games and lose eight in a row? and a lot of those weren't competitive. That shouldn't be the drop-off no matter how many guys get hurt. You should have that drop-off. You should at least be in the mix, in the fight, eight and eight. But hey, man, we fight every night because we're a winning organization now. We reverted. So I'm going to sell you. I like the names. I like what on paper it looks like it's adding. I'm cynical that it's actually going to work out that way. It's just where I'm at right now.

1:32:48Bill Simmons:Have you studied the NFL draft? Because you have the seventh pick.

1:32:52Tim Legler:No, I haven't gotten that far yet because of the NBA season, but I will have that buttoned up by the time we get to that night.

1:33:00Bill Simmons:Like McShay for us thinks Love is the best player in the draft, the running back. There's a chance he could go to seven. All the money they just spent went into their defense. Yeah.

1:33:12Tim Legler:So that's been, and it should be, it was just laughable how bad their defense was that year. That's where the money's been spent. So now the talk is they're going to turn the first round of the draft into an offensive pick, and that would be the position. We only have one running back right now, really. Krosky Merritt's a really good player, but that's like the only running back we have. Other guys have signed with other teams. Eckler have probably done. So we don't have any other running backs. So I think that probably is the position that they're going to target, and that is the name that looks like it's going to be there when they make that pick.

1:33:46Tim Legler:It would be pretty exciting.

1:33:47Bill Simmons:get a healthy Daniels get love some skill guys alright Legs I'll see you in a couple weeks before so it's what yeah we'll do one more right before the playoffs and then you'll be on Zach's pod once but I've enjoyed hearing you on the game say hi to say hi to the Rev Mike Breen say hi to Ruko say hi to RJ thanks for coming on always good to see you anytime Bill talk to you in a couple weeks alright that's it for the podcast thanks to Legs thanks to Gajal and Eduardo as always don't forget I am going to be on live on Netflix, four o 'clock PT right after March Madness. So stay tuned for that. Have a great weekend.

1:34:25Bill Simmons:I will see you on Sunday.

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1:35:31Tim Legler:Shot clocks, big shots, upsets, aces, TGL playoffs are here. First, Atlanta Drive starts their repeat run against Los Angeles Golf Club. Then, Rory's Boston Common Golf and Tiger's Jupiter Lynx face off in their playoff debuts. Who will advance? Keep up. It's playoffs. Tune in Tuesday, March 17th at 6.30 p.m. and 9 p.m. only on ESPN and the ESPN app.