The Giannis Never-Trade and a Mega-Mailbag With Zach Lowe, Plus Wyndham Clark’s Second U.S. Open Title With Joe House

14:38Bill Simmons:By the way, on the Hawks, at 23, you have all these, I think guards that have a chance to be really good. and I just feel like one of them's going to fall. And you might be able to get a Corey, the point guard. He's like 6 '1". He's a little Kemba Walker. Christian Anderson could be around there. You just might be able to get one of those guys at 23 and get a blue. You get Burris at eight. There's like one version of him in the draft, like just an old school two-way, two guard. And then hope you get lucky with a point guard later.

15:07Joe House:I have a Celtics question for you.

15:09Bill Simmons:Yeah.

15:10Joe House:You mentioned, has the Tatum-Brown thing run its course? But the other side of that coin is the Celtics have been extremely quiet and extremely careful about this whole Giannis thing. It's all been sources say the Celtics are interested in Giannis. Sources say there have been talks, whatever. The leak that says specifically Jalen Brown has been offered for Giannis has not really come out yet. It's just everyone making the very logical, no other way to do it, deduction. And then there was a brief like, well, could they do it without including Jalen Brown, which I didn't buy it for a second? I don't think there's any way to do it.

15:47Joe House:But my point is the Celtics have been, I think, very careful because they know, having done this dance a little bit with Durant and Brooklyn, that there's collateral damage to a guy who thinks he's been offered. They can probably plausibly go to him now and be like, hey, man, like it was never out there that we explicitly offered you. Like, just ignore all that stuff. Do you think that is too far gone? Like that collateral, are you worried about that kind of collateral damage if this doesn't happen? And how does Jalen Brown feel about it? Is there still a path forward?

16:21Bill Simmons:I mean, I said a week and a half ago, I know they made an offer and they're definitely involved in this and they're definitely the other team. Like there's no question. The bigger question to me is how much does Jalen Brown even care? Like my fear with all of this, and maybe this is part of the reason they're thinking about not blowing it up, but changing whatever they're doing is that he got a legitimate taste at being the guy last year and having his own team. And that's a real thing. And that's something that has submarined a lot of NBA teams over the course of history. And as is something that's submarined other facets of life.

16:57Bill Simmons:Like I joked Lee and was talking about the wire when Avon went to jail and Stringer Bell took over the business and was kind of the guy running the thing. And then Avon came back and they, and that's the TV fictionalized version of it. But when you have a taste and it's your team and you're the guy, it's pretty tough to just be like, okay, here you go. I kept it warm for you. And I, I think what's different than a couple of years ago is that, um, you know, if Jalen had his own team, I don't think he's shedding tears over that. And I also think he's since the season ended,

17:34he's just done a lot of like small things that make you go huh that was like two two 90s song

17:44Joe House:lyrics in a row all the small things i guess that's post 90s and things that make you go all just sandwiched together nicely done uh there was some there was some the twitch you're not

17:54Bill Simmons:enjoying the twitch stream i don't think the twitch the the this was the best season of my career. Um, I don't like Tatum hasn't come on the Twitch. It's like all these little tiny things where I still don't have a lot of hardcore evidence that these guys are fired up to play basketball with each other for the next 10 years. I would rather it worked out and they stayed together because I think that's the rarest thing you could have in sports. I just am dubious that

18:18Joe House:it will, but you've done not to derail the mailbag, I'm sorry, but you've done a very smart thing, which is this is there's so much Giannis mania that this is being framed as Giannis or bust. And it doesn't have to be. You can canvas the league for Jalen Brown trades. However, I will say just scanning. And I remember doing this at the time, finding the one if this is your priority. And I think it should be that keeps you at or near the top of the East with like a reasonable championship equity next season is not like the Clippers one that you proposed does not do that. in my opinion. It's a huge step back for the team.

18:54Joe House:So I remember landing in places like Houston that have a lot of just stuff and picks that they can throw in. And I just, I'm struggling to remember sort of who else fits the bill. The Pelicans are the other one. That's why you have Murphy and Jones and all that. There just aren't that many who can throw back here. Here's some stuff that is different than Jalen Brown, but keeps you at a 58-60 win pace, which is what they've been at.

19:19Bill Simmons:Well, the only thing with that Clippers one is you're resetting your salary in like a pretty crazy way because with the clippers able to take on his money and you basically take that fifth pip back plus you have the trade exception you now you really have flexibility to do a bunch of different moves like i like what about like i

19:37Joe House:remember thinking about like like and i don't think either dean i don't think cleveland would do this but like a jail and brown from mobley like that would be the kind of thing that i'm talking about where it's like here's another pathway that's not yannis but satisfies that makes us just as good now as we are and it's it's just hard to find those deals are really hard to

19:54Bill Simmons:make we have a fake trade in the mailbag oh good that's another one for this but yeah i mean he's making high 50s so any trade unless you're getting a draft pick back and a bunch of flexibility you're looking at another guy who's in that range and a team that's probably staring at the same way i guess the bigger thing for me is with the with the i think the knicks have at least a two-year run here where they're going to be really hard to beat because of the team they've assembled all the guys at the right points of their career and there's a real selflessness with this like that the model for them would be what happened with the 70s through 73 knicks where they won two titles were able to stay together or even like the 08 to 2012 celtics so you kind of know that's the team that's the bar you have to beat that's a team that feels like they can beat boston

20:38Joe House:is or like or like the early the early 2000s pistons who only get one but are in the deep deep conversation for a half decade and probably should have gotten another one in there somewhere

20:49Bill Simmons:yeah i i agree they have a a really special guy which that pistons team did not have that piston team was a totality brunson is unlike anything that pistons team has dismiss the knicks repeat

21:00Joe House:chance at your peril that's all this is a really really good team and if they're healthy they're deep they're smart they know how to play they're incredible problem solvers something magical happened to them in this playoff run that it like maybe it completely sustains maybe it doesn't but I think they're going to be a force as long as they can keep the score together.

21:19Bill Simmons:Yeah, and Brad, his press conference was so telling right after the draft for the Celtics, where he was clearly really publicly unhappy for the first time in a while. Not just that they lost to a team I think he thought they were better than, but that he just didn't know if the style worked anymore. And even if you go back, we have a great mailbag question coming up about that 0-4 Celtics team. That team was still able to play more inside-outside than the team last year. That team last year ultimately was just threes and jump shots and weirdly Pritchard as the only inside-outside guy. So I think I'm prepared for anything with them.

21:56Bill Simmons:I don't know what's going to happen. And I still feel like it's going to be honest. And then I'm going to have to spend the summer talking myself into it.

22:05Joe House:Honestly, that is a really appealing part of it for me. I just want to witness you coming to grips with it and then going all the other way of like why this would be the perfect fit. I've loved Giannis all along.

22:17Bill Simmons:Best shape of his career. He's totally rested. I'll talk myself into it. And it's the same thing. Like I said last month about if Miami gets him, wherever Giannis goes, the team and the content from that team is going to be way more fun, right? Last year, we were in this Giannis situation really where it was just like, this is just a wasted asset for us to watch and discuss. And wherever he goes, it's going to be a lot more fun. The other thing I want to see with this draft, the 11-12 range of Golden State picking right before OKC. And I'm sure you've heard this too. These teams now that see it through the prism of, I'm tired of watching OKC just nail the draft.

22:58Bill Simmons:How would they be thinking about these guys and the spot I'm in? and there's a couple like classic OKC guys in this range right after that top eight where Yaxel, Morris Johnson, like these are just guys that OKC will pick and then you'll get texts from 20 teams being like, fuck, OKC did it again. And I wonder if that's going to change how people see the draft with their own spot. It's like even Atlanta at eight or the Warriors at 11, like, I wonder what OKC would do here.

23:28Joe House:I will caution I heard you say that with Legler a couple days ago I will say that the Spurs had that kind of reaction maybe 10-12 years ago where they would take a guy and be like I remember vividly this happened with Kyle Anderson like oh of course the Spurs steal Kyle Anderson and then it turns out he's just like whatever like sometimes he's like oh of course they draft this guy turn into like of course the Spurs drafted Josh Primo what a steal he's going to be oh yeah that was not a steal so you get carried away with it He can carry it away with it.

23:59Bill Simmons:All right. Aggregate that. Zach Lowe says Presti overrated. Oh, I know. Zach Lowe eviscerates Sam Presti. All right. We're taking a quick break. Oh, good. And then I have an awesome mega mailbag and Zach can recover from eviscerating Sam Presti right after this. This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. We're in the heart of the World Cup. Look at these little special bottles for Michelob Ultra. every play matters here. FIFA World Cup 26 for you. The stakes are just this high. Michelob Ultra, the official beer sponsor of the FIFA World Cup 26 is giving you a chance to win $1 million worth of tickets and prizes.

24:40Bill Simmons:Michelob Ultra from the pitch to the poor superiors worth playing for. Enter now at Michelob Ultra dot com slash superior access slash FIFA World Cup 2-6. Michelob Ultra FIFA World Cup 26. Superior access. No purchase necessary. Open to U.S. residents 21+. Begins on December 1st, 2025. Ends on July 31st, 2026. Multiple entry periods. Visit www.micelobultra.com slash superior access slash FIFA World Cup 26 for free entry, entry deadlines, prizes, and details. All right. Mailbag time. All right. some really good ones. This is from, I hope I pronounced this correctly, Pacho in Dusseldorf, Germany.

25:26Bill Simmons:He threw you in this mailbag question. Okay. He said, I want to know how you and Zach think a tournament of the last eight champions would actually shake out. Here's how the seeding landed based on win percentage. Number one is OKC, two Boston, three Lakers, four Toronto, five Knicks, six Nuggets, seven Warriors, and eight Bucks. How does it shake out? So first round would be OKC 1 versus Bucks 8 Boston and Golden State Denver and the Lakers and Knicks Toronto so let's go through the 1-8 I have OKC over the Bucks in 5 2015 25 OKC against that 21 Bucks team I think the Thunder handled them

26:08Joe House:I didn't make specific games picks but I took the Thunder so it's a Thunder in 6 I'll give Giannis a couple games Giannis Drew Holiday Chris Middleton and I'll give him a couple games for sure.

26:18Bill Simmons:Okay. I think OKC was better. That Bucks team, God bless them. Great team. They got a really nice Pat Connaughton playoff run. Middleton was great. I just think the OKC team was really good. Celtics, the 24 version, going against the 22 Warriors. So they almost beat the 22 Warriors and that 24 team I think was just better. The guys were older, more experienced. I have to sadly take the Celtics.

26:44Joe House:I think it's the Celtics. You put, you throw Drew Holiday and Porzingis into the mix and it's just the depth and versatility are, are a different animal than those warriors could, could summon, I think.

26:54Bill Simmons:Yeah. But congrats, listen, there's no losers. These are eight champions. We're not, we're not downing any of these.

26:59Joe House:You're setting me up for, for some inflammatory. All of these are wonderful teams, great teams. And one of the, one of the common themes we're going to run into is we debate the merits of them. And I, I focused like on matchups and, and, and like how they met would match up with each other and what they look like in the playoffs more than like regular season win totals and net ratings because if we're going to do it that way just pick the 25 thunder the whole way if you're going to do just do it that way um and you're going to run into like debating the the difficulty of their playoff paths to the title like and but and that's a common it turns out that's like a common thing you don't always get the 2011 mavericks path where you just have to beat all the best teams like a lot of these teams in the moment people said well they didn't have to play this team they didn't have to play that team it's actually pretty common denver over the lakers

27:45Bill Simmons:so that's 23 denver against the 20 lakers and that 20 lakers team did have this is where it gets complicated because kcp is kcp is in both on in both teams i don't know what we do with that i didn't think about that it's a double kcp uh caruso is on that laker team as well they had Rondo. I, uh, I just think Jokic had the Lakers number over the last few years there. And, um, I would take Denver over the Lakers in six or seven would be my pick.

28:18Joe House:I'm going nuggets in seven, uh, best player and the best version of that team. I think that we've seen the 23 nuggets where we're going peak against peak, right? We're going like peak form 23 nuggets versus 20 Lakers. That 20 Lakers was a really good team. I have always been Lakers fans, a proponent of like the bubble title counts just the same as all other titles. It's special in its own way. I'm not saying that. There's nothing about that. They had Danny Green too. You forgot about Danny Green. They had a lot of good role players on that team. I just think that Denver team was, was pretty awesome and I will take them in a long seven game slog.

28:51Bill Simmons:I feel the same way. Plus Jokic was on that 23 playoffs that Jokic had is one of the all-time heaters. I think he was 31-14-11 or something. Shot 50 % from three. Crazy. All right, last one's a fun one. Knicks in Toronto. And you have OG and Anobi on both teams, but we have to factor in the appendicitis for OG and Anobi. You do. So he's wiped out on the Toronto side, but playing for the Knicks side. And all due respect for Toronto, which I think was the prototype for every single guy on our team can create a shot for themselves, which was really one of the first times we had seen that with a with the title team kawaii was great that year but i think the knicks beat them how many games you think it's a good series i had nixon six it was going into toronto and when

29:39Joe House:and going into the air canada center oh no that would be they would be winning an msg regardless nixon six what'd you have uh i think this is a tougher one um than i initially just circled nicks because a my brain is dumb and they this just happened and so i'm overrating them in my head probably a little bit but they are just an awesome team they solved all comers they just had the highest point differential in the history of the playoffs that raptors and and our last memory of that raptors team is is tainted by durant injury clay injury kawaii was kind of running out of gas toward the end of that series and van vliet carried him over the finish line van vliet heat check young siakam young and an obu didn't play but young siakam was already really good.

30:22Joe House:The Abaka-Gasol combo was really good. It's a really versatile, well-rounded, two-way team. I'm going to give them a seven game loss to the Knicks. I think they take the Knicks to the distance in that series, but I'm taking the Knicks.

30:35Bill Simmons:That sounded like somebody that's going to Toronto for a World Cup game in two days. Didn't want to be yelled at. Next round is much better and much tougher.

30:47Joe House:I'm not going to like what's going to happen in this room. We have

30:50Bill Simmons:OKC in the Knicks. And we have Denver and the Celtics. And I think that's an easier one. I think Denver beats the Celtics. Jokic always beats the Celtics. And I don't care how good that 24 Celtics team was. I don't think we're beating the 23 Nuggets, unfortunately. So I have them in six. The other one's a tough one. Who'd you have in the Denver series?

31:09Joe House:That's like the dream series we didn't get, right? Like that whole season when Boston won the title, the dream was Denver, Boston. Like the two regular season matchups were like the most amped up matchups, the most hyped up matchups of the season. I remember vividly watching one on a plane and praying the Wi-Fi would stay strong enough for me to continue watching the game because they didn't have live TV on this particular flight. I went back and forth. I'll take Denver in seven, just defaulting again to, they have the best player and that team was just humming. Like Aaron Gordon, it's like peak Aaron Gordon, peak Bruce Brown, peak everybody involved pretty much.

31:45Joe House:And so I will take Denver in seven, but I think that Celtics team was awesome. and solve some of its late game yips or whatever they had?

31:55Bill Simmons:No question. That would have been an awesome series. OKC over New York is an even tougher call. I went with OKC in seven because of all the dudes, they would have had to throw up Brunson. I think the big what if of these playoffs that we just had is if OKC just beats San Antonio in seven. Do we feel much better about San Antonio than we did after five finals games. And then that OKC team was just... All my Knicks fan friends were like, thank God we didn't have to play OKC. That was a much tougher matchup for us. So I would go OKC and seven in that one. But I really waffled and I couldn't decide.

32:36Joe House:My heart wants to take the Knicks. Yeah. And I think the Knicks, again, their level of problem... They're a very difficult team to play against. They're an unusual team in a lot of respects with this six-foot-nothing guard who gets whatever he wants and a shooting five and all this wing versatility, wing size around them. I mean, what do you make of Oklahoma City needing seven to beat Denver with Michael Porter Jr. playing with one arm and Aaron Gordon playing with one leg and then seven to beat Indiana? Like, this is what I struggle with because, again, if you're just going to go on paper, regular season plus combined resumes, it's Oklahoma City and it's not close.

33:14Joe House:but the playoff resumes are New York's run better, however you want to quantify it, was certainly more dominant, easier conference, albeit. I think I might actually take the Knicks in seven to win this matchup over that specific Oklahoma City Thunder team. I think I might, I think something magical -

33:30Bill Simmons:Just because of the inexperience and -

33:32Joe House:I just, it wasn't, it was a very good playoff run by Oklahoma City, great championship run. I just think something crazy happened with the Knicks and they just found Nirvana and found magic. I'll just, whatever. This is a fun extra. I'm taking the Knicks in seven. Forget it. Sorry.

33:48Bill Simmons:It's a great one. I, uh, here's, here's why I took OKC. All the guys. They're amazing. There's no wrong answer. Just all the guys to throw a Brunson, which San Antonio had. But the difference is in the last five minutes, OKC had Shea and San Antonio didn't have anybody. And that's why they kept losing those games. I'm just me. All right. So I have finals. Denver, I have over OKC. so just because they came so close to beating OKC anyway and that 23 Denver team was way better. So that one was an easier one for me. So you have Denver versus New York in your matchup. So who do you have?

34:23Joe House:I went Denver in seven. It's crazy that we both ended with the 23 Nuggets who were pilloried for having two play-in teams in their playoff run and how soft it was and playing Miami in the finals and all that. I think, you know, power ranking these teams I think 23 Denver, 25 OKC, 26 Nick. The last four, to me, are stronger than the early parts of the run. The last four are really, really good single season teams. Just awesome teams, top to bottom.

34:53Bill Simmons:Yeah, I think the 23 Nuggets were the best of the eight. So we agree. Okay, it's fake trade season for the next part of the mailbag. First one's from Mac. He said, I have to say that you were early and so right about Harper. I'll take all, I noticed Dylan Harper was awesome compliments in the preseason, which was the single easiest thing to know. I know that Dallas is contractually obligated to have their best player be a white guy. But hypothetically, let's say you were the Spurs GM and Dallas calls offering flag for Harper. Do you say yes? What if the Wizards call and offer you the first pick for Harper?

35:28Bill Simmons:Harper is not getting traded for any pick in this draft. I've already litigated that. Flag for Harper is more interesting. Dallas obviously isn't trading flag. Nobody's trading anybody. But I'm wondering, from what we know now, I still think flag should go first, but I did waffle way more than I would have two months ago.

35:47Joe House:So the question is not who goes first in the draft, it's who says no to flag for Harper, or do the Spurs say yes or no?

35:55Bill Simmons:I mean, it's actually a better trade for San Antonio because they already have a point guard, right?

36:00Joe House:I just think they say no anyway, because what they just saw with Harper in the playoffs is a known commodity. They've gotten a year to know him within their walls. They know how he fits with Wembenyama. He's a more... It's more of a sea change to go to flag as the supersized point forward. Look, you can't lose with either of them, but I think they would probably be like, we're good. I think it's a double no.

36:22Bill Simmons:I think it's a double no. Yeah, the Mavs aren't in a hurry.

36:26Joe House:The Mavs are saying no as well, for sure.

36:27Bill Simmons:Yeah, they hang up faster. Flag on that Spurs team would have been fascinating. Like literally what they needed. Not that Harper wasn't what they needed, but flagged next to Webby would have been really fun. This one's a little more realistic, even though I don't think it happens, from Aaron in Oregon. Who says no? Austin Reeves for Jalen Duren, double sign-in trade. Lakers get their big for Luka to trick. That's a perfect fit next to Cade, avoids overpaying Duren. And then he adds, also, is everyone sleeping on Dame freaking Lillard joining this Portland team that got a win in San Antonio? It's true, Dame's coming back.

37:00Joe House:He just did the two-part question that you do at the press conference when you only get one question. Hey, Adam, two-part for you. And they're just completely unrelated. It's like, hey, what about expansion? B, aspiration, that finishing anytime soon. Tags, I'll take it from here. Yeah, we are sleeping on Dame. I'll talk more about Portland later. What was the first part? I already forgot. This is the danger of the two-part question.

37:22Bill Simmons:Dern Reeves, double sign and trade.

37:24Joe House:So who's, I'm just going beef stew, Paul Reed, all in on those guys and finding a center down the line. it's like Austin Reeves is a better player right now than Jalen Duren. I feel like his, they, they need secondary creation around Cade. They more urgently need what regular season Jalen Duren was in terms of like rim running, all that stuff. So I'm just, I'm, that's too much. These are huge changes. I'm saying no, it's too much for me to contemplate as the Detroit Pistons.

37:51Bill Simmons:I'm saying no as well for both teams. I do think Detroit needs to get Duren somewhere between 30 and 34 to five. seems doable to me. Yeah. I don't think, he can't be a max guy. This next one's fun from Joval. Quips trade fifth pick for Paolo Boncaro. Quips already have Garland drafting a guard as redundant. Magic could choose Acuff to pair with Suggs and Franz and fix their luxury tax issues. What are your thoughts? It did make me pause. As earlier in the podcast, I had a Jalen Brown for the five. You said that wasn't on the Boston timetable, which you're right. this is a little more on the magic timetable.

38:33Bill Simmons:Pretty good trade.

38:34Joe House:That's a good one.

38:35Bill Simmons:So basically it's a cuff and you save 35 million on the cap.

38:39Joe House:And Ben Carol is still very young. So it's sort of a, although he's making a max salary, my whole thing about the Clippers and being just overjoyed to have a blue chip, young guy kind of still applies. Clippers got to think hard about that. Got to think really hard about that. There is something a little depressing about pairing two of like two guys who are leaving disappointing postseason teams, or I guess the Cavs are no longer a disappointing postseason team, but Garland and Ben Carroll feels like, hey, we got the discards from teams that just didn't play quite as well in the playoffs as we wanted.

39:15Joe House:That's a good one. I don't know if... The film I've watched with the draft guys with the Clippers, I'm just saying I'm going to make the pick. I'm making a pick. There's enough guys that I would love to have on my team that I'm just going to make the pick.

39:27Bill Simmons:Would you trade the fifth pick for Mobley?

39:34Bill Simmons:that one gets really interesting because that solves a lot of luxury tax shit for cleveland

39:38Joe House:i probably i think that's hard that's hard as the clippers as the clippers i probably would and i just think mobley's a little bit more is he better than bigger i think he is a little bit better than van carroll just because of what he could do defensively is like a total known a plus commodity and he's very young, but.

39:57Bill Simmons:See, I wouldn't do that trade if I was the Cavs. You would. I would not because it's all guards on the fifth pick. And I think I would rather.

40:07Joe House:Oh, I wasn't even thinking about it from their perspective. I don't think they're going to. For the Clips, I would do it. I don't think they're moving Mobley almost for anyone right now. So. Good.

40:16Bill Simmons:They shouldn't. Adam from Santan Valley, Arizona had a three-teamer where the Warriors got Anthony Davis and Klay Thompson. Washington got Jimmy Butler in the 11th pick from Golden State and Dallas got pods and Moses Moody in the trade exception from AD. The 11th is way too much for Anthony Davis. I don't think he has that kind of value. I do feel like there's a next year's first from Golden State with the Butler expiring for Davis is like in the vicinity of what I think. And I don't think Davis wants to be in Washington and neither do you. But I don't think he's worth the 11th pick with the injury history over the years and his age and his salary.

40:56Joe House:The Warriors, you just got to think a little bit about tomorrow too. And I think they've been pretty open about that. Yes, we want to win around Steph. Yes, Anthony Davis would help. You got to think a little bit about tomorrow. Why was Dallas in that trade? What was Dallas getting out of it?

41:12Bill Simmons:Just to get Klay Thompson back on Golden State, which I fully support. I think Adam was thick to rain. All right, This is the best one from Doug from Sleepy Hollow. You discuss Chicago-Memphis trades to get Peterson to Chicago with house. But the ideal one is staring us in the face. Number three for number four, and a sick new Hyatt in downtown Memphis. Oh, come on. One of the weird subplots of the season, finding out NBA players hate Memphis because of the hotel. Well, the governor of Illinois is rich because his family owns Hyatt. And he's currently taking heat from Illinois sports fans because the Bears are threatened to move to Indiana.

41:47Bill Simmons:With one move, everyone wins. Bulls get Peterson. Memphis gets Wilson. And a luxury Hyatt in downtown Memphis.

41:56Joe House:But that's not helping me as the Memphis Grizzlies. It's helping my opponents rest better and be happier when they come to my city. That's a great point. I want them to be unhappy.

42:08Bill Simmons:Yeah, so Memphis says no. They're like, this hotel thing's an advantage for us. The players are pissed. They don't sleep well. They can't get good room service. We like where we are with this. screw you. They hang up. Oh, this was the Jalen Brown trade they got. This is from Sean T. Jalen Brown and Hauser for Jamal Murray and Aaron Gordon. Ooh. That got an ooh out of me. It's funny because Jalen Brown and Jamal Murray was the big Boston. Who were they going to take at three 10 years ago in the 2016 draft? Jamal Murray was one of the guys people thought Boston was going to take. Jalen Brown and Hauser for Jamal Murray in Aaron Gordon.

42:47Bill Simmons:Denver would save a little money on that one, too.

42:50Joe House:They'd save a lot of money. We're going to have to ignore that element of, I think, because it's$81 million coming back to the Celtics, and Jalen is at 57, and Hauser is at 67 for 81, 68 for 81.

43:00Bill Simmons:Yeah, you could throw in one more to make that work, potentially. Pretty good one.

43:07Bill Simmons:Wow, you're really deliberating on this one. I like this one. So this will give the Celtics Murray with Derek White, Pritchard off the bench, Aaron Gordon Tatum you're still hurting at center a little bit but that would be it

43:23Joe House:I think I'm a no if I'm Boston just because oh I thought it would be Denver that would be the no I mean it could be either honestly again I have no prep for this listeners this is just being thrown at me blind yeah that's what we love

43:39Bill Simmons:the Gordon leg issues

43:41Joe House:are really worrisome to me and I just like like$95 million of Jamal Murray and Aaron Gordon in 2029 makes me a little nervous if I'm the Celtics. And I care a little bit about like maybe cleaning up my books at some point, which is one of the things you've talked about with Jalen. It's a double no.

43:59Bill Simmons:I think the more realistic one would just be Jalen for Jamal Murray straight up with maybe some massaging from the Denver side. Randy in Sacramento would like to propose the following King special. Oh boy. Where everyone wins. The Spurs received DeMontis Sabonis. Hawks received De 'Aaron Fox. And the Kings get Reese's Shea, Kaminga, and the Spurs 20th pick. And maybe their picks walk back. I'll go way more simple than this. What if it's just Fox to the Hawks, Reese's Shea, and Kaminga to Sacramento, and Sabonis and Buddy Heal to San Antonio? No picks, nothing else. That actually works on the trade machine.

44:36Joe House:This person needs assistance immediately. This is absolutely an insane trade um insane for who everybody involved so so the spurs are like hey we just made the finals and 160 whatever games bonus like how about we upend everything and try to pair sabonis with victor wambinyama that sounds amazing the hawks are like hey we're a pretty good young team yeah we just resigned cj mcconn for one year you know what sounds great four years and 220 million dollars of De 'Aaron Fox for a guy who just picked at number one in Jonathan Kaminga. And the Kings are getting what? They're getting Kaminga and Rishishay.

45:16Bill Simmons:Yeah, they have to opt in at Kaminga and they get Rishishay. That's it. That's all they get.

45:19Joe House:That's actually not even... The Kings are not making out like bandits there for a guy who called this... A Sacramento presumably fan who called it the King's special. That one broke me a little bit. It broke my spirit. It broke my morale. I'm a little flustered by that one.

45:35Bill Simmons:Sorry, Randy. And then the last one's from Ellis in New York, who says he loves the pot. I know the Nuggets have no plans to trade Jokic. Okay, let's go.

45:43Joe House:I was waiting for this one.

45:44Bill Simmons:But could the Thunder offer something like Chet, J-Dub, and picks for Jokic and Aaron Gordon? What's the motherlode? How far could it go? It did. So I texted you and I was like, got this Jokic trade. They're not trading Jokic.

45:56Joe House:You texted me. I just want to be clear. 55 minutes before the scheduled start time of this podcast. You just texted me. Hey, build some fair, realistic Jokic trade. Okay.

46:08Bill Simmons:They're not going to trade him, but I do think if they ever did, Utah would be the team because it's reasonably close to Denver. Is that who you had to? I have six teams. That's how I roll, Bill. You give me 55 minutes. Don't notice I give you six teams. All I needed was one. I can't believe you had six.

46:23Joe House:Ellis gave you one, which is OKC is an obvious one. You pair Shea and Jokic and you just figure out the rest. I wouldn't trade both Chet and J-Dub, but one of them.

46:33Bill Simmons:I wouldn't either, but Chet, 12, 17, Kaysen, Wallace, and a couple others.

46:38Joe House:Kaysen's got to be in it. Give me Sorber. They own the rights to multiple Denver first round picks, so I get my picks back. There's a lot of stuff there. And Utah, I'm surprised you landed on Utah, too, because there's a Utah trade to be made. The problem is I really want to sign and trade Walker Kessler as part of that trade if I'm the jazz and the nuggets because of the apron stuff can't take a player back who's acquired into sign and trade because i don't he's the one if i'm getting yokich so i have to make i have to make a three-team trade and it gets a little complicated it was here's my question in your

47:09Bill Simmons:utah trade was the number two pick involved yeah 100 000 okay yeah it's it's a full blow it up for utah that was the only one yeah i had uh number two marketing all the other picks they have where So they basically, and I had them keeping Kessler in the trade, not just for the reason you mentioned, but I also kind of like the idea of Kessler and Jokic together. Okay. But Utah is one of the few teams that could make a fuck you offer, I think. And you also have to figure you want Jokic to be happy, and he kind of likes being on that side in the mountains. You don't have to say what the other offers were, but what were the other four teams you had?

47:47Joe House:I want to say. Oh, go. All right. So first of all, here are the three different challenges for this, right? Whatever team gets, we're seeing now with Giannis, whatever team gets Jokic has to be in position to win immediately. That's number one. Number two, their picks in this new lottery world have to have some upside for me as Denver, where it's like, okay, I'm not going to get the 25th pick every year. And number three, Jokic has to be willing to sign an extension. So we talked about Utah. We talked about OKC. Houston. shangoon jabari smith jr nets pick suns pick a bunch of swaps rockets pick so i get bites at the apple from different from different teams who could bottom out in the right year um portland donovan clingen scoot henderson jeremy grant all the bucks picks all the blazers picks anything

48:36Bill Simmons:of interest there for you um you get all the milwaukee stuff i don't know if portland has the

48:43Joe House:headliner for that trade necessarily no clinging plus scoot is not as sexy as it as it might have

48:49Bill Simmons:been now the number two pick to me is a much more important headliner charlotte lamello ball or

48:55Joe House:brandon miller take your pick number 14 number 18 salon a mavs pick a heat pick all the future

49:01Bill Simmons:charlotte picks no no and i i need if i'm trading joker i need something incredible back the lakers

49:13Joe House:The Lakers straight up for Luka Doncic.

49:18Joe House:Just because I thought you'd have a little fun with that one.

49:25Joe House:Hold on. Let's talk this out. I keep LeBron, Reeves, and I get Jokic, and we're going all in to win the title with that group. We're not going to have a lot of defense, but we already don't have enough defense.

49:37Bill Simmons:I have to throw in more Luka, though. More than Luka, right? I got to throw in a pick or two with that. Future something? Anything? I don't know. I mean, that's pretty good. Wyndham Clark just won the US Open.

49:49Joe House:My guy, I've always said Wyndham Clark is my guy.

49:55Bill Simmons:David Sherman said, one of my favorite takes you've ever had is the NBA should award larger or smaller trophies to the NBA champion, depending on how important and impressive the runner triumph is. What size would you give the Knicks after this year? Obviously, no one is getting a bigger trophy than the 2011 Mavs, blah, blah, blah. So I actually, that idea was for the MVP, not the NBA, not the Lawrence O 'Brien trophy. Because I feel like every championship is special.

50:21Joe House:I like that you just threw out the trophy's full name, not the Larry O 'Brien. You just threw out Lawrence O 'Brien.

50:28Bill Simmons:Ironically, probably the worst commissioner of the league's ever had.

50:34Bill Simmons:Just overwhelming about evidence. I think this is a better idea for the MVP because we have some incredible, you know like the shack 2000 or lebron 2012 mvps where it's just like these are the biggest 40 pound mvps and then there's the other ones were like carl malone during the lockout was a great one every chance every chance you get three pounder i want to tell people both privately

50:58Joe House:and publicly any chance you get to slander carl malone you're not passing it up i feel great

51:03Bill Simmons:about it i have text threads with carl malone slander it's just great about it feel i feel one of my least favorite non-Celtics ever. I wish he had had a cup of coffee with the Celtics at the end of his career. So the trophies, if we gave them three, maybe three sizes only for how impressive the run was, I still feel like the 2011 Mavs would be higher than this next title. But I still thought it was really impressive. It was a level two for me. It was level one, level two, level three being the highest. Three is the highest. And that's really just 2011 Mavs. I don't even know who else is on that.

51:41Bill Simmons:This was a solid level, too.

51:43Joe House:The level is, are we combining difficulty, memorability? Yeah, the whole package. The whole thing.

51:50Bill Simmons:Yeah, the historical significance. The Knicks had a bunch of it, but I don't know the path. I don't know you could get them.

51:57Joe House:I think this is a level three. I think the Knicks just had a level three. And my case would be 16-3 in the playoffs. greatest point differential in the history of the playoffs um collision with when ben yama which we'll always remember because the next phase of the league and all that entered a hero and left a villain in very simplistic terms uh and first title in 53 years for the biggest market and one of the most historic franchises in the sport i think it's a level three despite now that you

52:24Bill Simmons:could nitpick the opposition it's a level three you know what else you're right and you left out

52:29Joe House:the greatest comeback in the history of the sport the most one of the most iconic plays of all time

52:34Bill Simmons:It's a level three. My apologies, Knicks fans. You were, it was a level three title. Um, this next email is really good. It's from Sean and Charlotte who fancies himself as an amateur NBA historian. He said the Knicks playoff run was a hundred percent unbelievable. I clocked your Shawshank redemption reference in your June 14th podcast. Um, was the Patriots 2001 Superbowl like this for you? Do you actively remember thinking you didn't have to cringe at that refrigerator pair, well, touchdown anymore the rest of your life. And he's right. But he said, seeing Patrick Ewing hugging Carl Towns was genuinely emotional.

53:10Bill Simmons:People I don't have to think about anymore. Michael Jordan, Scottie Pippen, Horace Grant, Hugh Hollins, Phil Jackson, Hakeem, Reggie Miller, Rick Smiths, Pat Riley, PJ Brown, Scott Layden, Isaiah Thomas, Kurt Rambis, Jeff Hornacek, David Fisdale, Trey Young, and Tyrese Halliburton. That was Sean and Charlotte. And it's such a great point. When you win a title, all of these horrible skeletons you have in your poltergeist pool just vanish into dust. Why did he include Hugh Hollins? Hugh Hollins. That was the...

53:40Joe House:That was a phantom foul in the Knicks' favor, was it not?

53:42Bill Simmons:I know, but then it led to them making the finals, so maybe he sees Hugh Hollins and it led to more pain. I don't know why he included him. Okay. But it's a great point because I remember when the Red Sox won in 04 and the Aaron Boone game had happened the year before. Remember when the Yankees won in extra innings?

54:00Joe House:I remember exactly where I was.

54:02Bill Simmons:Yeah. And that was going to haunt me the rest of my life. And then the Red Sox beat the Yankees the next year. And all of a sudden that Aaron Boone homer, nothing, means nothing to me anymore. It's just dead. And that's what happens when you win a title. All the skeletons just vanish.

54:17Joe House:I felt terrible. I remember exactly where I was in that game. I was a neutral party in as much as, I was not a neutral party. I was a Mets fan growing up, but my dad is a Red Sox fan. So I was cheering for the Red Sox. I was at the, I think it was called the Lion's Head on the Upper West Side slash Morningside Heights. And it was a, it was the, it was a mixed crowd, half Yankees fans, half Red Sox fans, rowdy. I just remember RIP feeling the absolute worst for Tim Wakefield, who just had made such a great career out of being a knuckleballer, was an Ironman, an innings eater, beloved member of that team.

54:50Joe House:and just watching him walk off the mound. I just, man, this, this, anybody, I would have been, I would have felt less bad if it had almost been anybody on the Red Sox, but him that gave up that home run.

55:01Bill Simmons:So beloved that none of us held it against him that he gave up the season ending homer. We all loved Tim Wakefield. It was never, it wasn't like a Calvin Shiroldy, Bob Stanley thing. And then a year later, he became one of the playoff heroes. Yeah, but that is a great part of winning the title. This episode is brought to you by LinkedIn. For small business, every hire matters, but the time and resources required to hire right are limited. Luckily, LinkedIn Hiring Pro is built for that reality. It's your hiring partner designed to help you hire with confidence by surfacing only the right candidates without turning hiring into another full-time job.

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56:03Bill Simmons:We've seen some legendary athletes don the number four jersey. Now I can't name names, but you guys know who I'm talking about. In fact, if you look at my studio, there's a framed picture of one of my favorite number fours. He played hockey. Anyway, you know what else is game-changing for? PayPal Pay-in-4. No fees, no interest, no impact on your credit score, just the flexibility to pay the way that works for you. And it's available at millions of online stores. Pay-in-4 with PayPal. Subject to approval. Learn more at paypal.com slash payin4. PayPal Inc. NMLS 910. 4-5-7. This episode of the Bill Simmons podcast brought to you by Spectrum Business.

56:49Bill Simmons:Fast, reliable internet means everything for your business. And even this podcast, that's why I trust Spectrum Business. They keep companies of all sizes connected with internet, advanced Wi-Fi, phone, TV, mobile services, plus 24-7 US-based support. Millions of business owners already trust Spectrum Business. So visit spectrum.com slash business to learn more. Restrictions apply. Service is not available in all areas. Jeff from New York. Now it's going to get a little dark. But the Knicks looking the best they've been in completing owning the city with this title. It's officially over for the Brooklyn Nets.

57:25Bill Simmons:They are a zombie franchise playing in a gentrified mall. Why not move the Nets to Las Vegas? Buy out Robert Perra, move the Grizzlies to Seattle, and let the new ownership groups pay a massive relocation entry fee to the other 30 owners instead of expansion. You still get a lot of money. Seattle gets Sonic back. Vegas gets a roster. We don't have to watch 31 expansion teams. Who says no? I do wonder, did the size you think have a secret meeting being like, is this ever going to work here? What do we do?

57:58Joe House:I mean, I think this is not even a... I mean, the relocation thing is a little bit crazy, but this whole existential crisis of the Brooklyn Nets as a franchise is a real thing because if you did like ancillary winners and losers of the finals and the playoffs and the next title run the nets are near the top of the list because this just underlined irrelevant is too strong of a word but new york is a multi-team town for every sport seemingly except nba basketball and i guess wmba basketball because of the liberty who the size also own are like a phenomenal fan experience and a great team um it's just like this this high like i i found myself imagining what would a nets parade look like if if they had won during the durant it would not have been like that it would not have felt like that it would have been 20 to 10 like that and i i and why i find it interesting is because obviously the nets have been kind of tanking since that team broke up and failed uh the lottery gods have not been kind to them they were not kind to them again they're picking sixth on tuesday and they have just drafted a bunch of point guards that's a point guard spot um i just wonder sort of how aggressive the size want to be i'm like hey we gotta like we this is embarrassing like we gotta put something together that creates a little buzz and i'm not sure how we do that like do we want to go out and get this guy that I'm interested to see how they respond because I do think the Knicks winning and the outpouring of emotion from the entirety of New York City is like a meaningful material change to what the Brooklyn Nets mean to the NBA.

59:41Joe House:I really do. I'm sorry to Nets fans.

59:43Bill Simmons:By the way, it was lying underneath for decades. The opportunity with the Nets was that the Knicks run had been so awful for 20 years. Could you steal some Knicks fans based on how poorly run and weird?

59:56Joe House:Durant and Kyrie were earmarked for the Knicks, and they went to the Nets, and that whole thing. And then they got Harden, and we fucked ad nauseum about that.

1:00:06Bill Simmons:I actually watched the foot on the line three from Durant. It's like mass chaos in Barclays. That has to be the loudest and crazy. When he makes it and actually goes in, and the fans thought they win. So there was some energy there. And if you're this size, you have to think like, okay, well, go back and watch some of those games. It wasn't nothing. No, it wasn't nothing. I honestly feel the same way about the Clippers. I just think LA's a Laker town. There's very few Clipper fans. And I don't really fully understand why Ballmer just wouldn't move to Seattle and just be like, you know what? I tried.

1:00:37Bill Simmons:Obviously, he can't now because he just built this into a dome and he's just kind of all in. But there's just a couple teams. It's the same reason why we don't have two teams in Chicago. The NBA makes way more sense and works better. I wouldn't Memphis wouldn't be the team I move I would move New Orleans if I had to pick a team to move that would be the that would be the one we've never seen professional basketball succeed ever in New Orleans and it's not the fault of the fans but it's a small market and a team that's run horribly and if you were just going to say relocation nets somewhere and and the Pelicans

1:01:12Joe House:somewhere and we don't have expansion here's the other that makes more sense to me this is maybe obvious but here's the other thing that happened with this next title run an entire group of young fans in brooklyn is in queens in every borough in every area of new york is they're now nicks fans forever you've lost an entire generation even some fans who may be like flirted with being a nets fan have now pivoted to to being nicks fans i watched it happen in boston after i left with the bruins

1:01:42Bill Simmons:because the bruins the owner and some of the stuff that the bruins really like faded and became like just the hardcore Bruins fans and nobody else. And then this new Bruins group came in and completely rejuvenated the city on the Bruins. And the same thing happened with the Patriots. And all of a sudden you had all these people who were under 25, under 30, that just loved those teams that might not have been there. And the same thing's gonna happen the next. All right, you had no prep for this question. Okay, great. From Joshua. I was thinking about all the sets of NBA Brothers. All-Star Weekend should capitalize by creating a Brothers 2-on-2 tournament.

1:02:15Bill Simmons:What would that look like? I'll give you the eight brother teams. Okay. The Thompsons, Dylan and Ron Harper, Giannis and Pick a Brother, Franz and Moe Wagner, Jalen and Coda Williams, Aaron and Drew Holiday, Cason and Keaton Willis. Wallace. I'm sorry, Wallace, and Steph and Seth Curry. so basically comes down to I would say the Thompson Twins versus the Harpers in the finals would be my guess unless you just think Giannis could one man it

1:02:50Joe House:I really would be curious of who Giannis would pick wouldn't this tournament be amazing though first of all if anything is better than the Taco Bell Poole and Weed or Taco Bell Skills Challenge Sprite presented by Sprite I think Giannis would try to pick all of his brothers and just sort of like sub them in and out. And I think the league would have to make him pick. No, you have to pick one of them, only one. And you have to snub the others and create family drama that will last generations. You have to do it. I think the Thompsons find a way to bully and defend their way into beating the Harpers and everybody else.

1:03:26Joe House:And they would be my pick. But Dylan Harper is the Dylan Harper and Ron Harper Jr. Game seven starter. Ron Harper Jr. is a nice team.

1:03:31Bill Simmons:Yeah. It's a playoff experience for both. Thompson's probably a rock fight with the Thompson's, but maybe, I don't know. I'd have them in the finals. Thompson twins at minus 140 over the Harper's.

1:03:44Joe House:I mean, imagine trying to score on those guys two on two. My God, what a, what a.

1:03:49Bill Simmons:The brother tournament, I love it. This is from Stutz. He says, has the Luka Brunson Mavs team overtaken? So the Harden-KD Westbrook OKC team as the biggest what-if-we-kept-this-team-together team of the 21st century. In retrospect, none of those OKC guys proved they could will a team to a championship single-handedly. Brunson already did it. Maybe Luka could do it someday. And then he says, time is luck. Stutz from Charlotte. That's a reference to Miami Vice, the movie. Time is luck. Big theme. Heat, too. Michael Mann. um so the only other one 2022 the only other one i would say is the what if we kept the team together but it's not this century was the 95 magic but i do think those two were in the finals the brunson thing in a lot of ways was even worse than the harden um the harden trade which we hated and i think we did multiple pieces of podcasts the first year we worked together it's single

1:04:54Joe House:handedly made Grantland's NBA coverage profitable and workable for like two years.

1:04:58Bill Simmons:It was great. We loved it. We loved getting content out of the Harden trade because it was so stupid. The Brunson thing was worse because it was four for 55. And if you remember that last season, even though they said we weren't talking four for 55 during the season, Rick Brunson did go to Dallas and say, it was like in January of that last season, we'll do the four for 55. and Dallas is like, we don't know. I still don't understand it. It was inexplicable as it was happening.

1:05:27Joe House:Well, it was for trade purposes, right? Like that was why. If they extended him, they couldn't trade him at that deadline in case something big came up for Luka and it turned out that something big was on your team. Like the guy that just won finals MVP and scored 45 points in an all-time great closeout performance.

1:05:42Bill Simmons:So what do you think's the bigger, what if we kept this team together team? It's probably still OKC because of the sheer totality of the guys.

1:05:48Joe House:i i think this i think this is to pick dallas is a little bit of a prisoner of the moment take because it was it was just we like luca and brunson clearly could have been special together but one was still coming off the bench for the most part and yeah those three guys together all of whom have won mvps in the regular season is just so iconic and had like was we had we we saw proof of concept they make the finals as like in the roles that they were probably going to have or Harden was going to start eventually. And then poof, it was gone so dramatically and so quickly. And they're all such iconic players for all different reasons that I still think that's the one.

1:06:29Bill Simmons:The other thing Harden would have bought them was backup star power when either guy got hurt, which is what happened the next year in 2013 when Westbrook got hurt in the playoffs. And then in, I think, 2015 with Durant.

1:06:42Joe House:Everybody, yeah, he had a year from hell with injuries.

1:06:44Bill Simmons:He also that four for 64. Remember he goes to Houston. They immediately give him an even bigger contract than that. Four for 64 for Harden was like a bargain where the league was going post-lockout. So yeah, tough one.

1:06:57Joe House:I remember everything. I remember Harden's first game, I believe it was against the Detroit Pistons as a Rocket. And it was immediately like, oh my God, this guy's going to actually do this game in and game out. Holy smokes.

1:07:10Bill Simmons:Sid McCollum in Salem, Oregon. He said, I was discussing me being the NBA commissioner and naming House as my deputy commissioner just so he could announce the second round picks. It's a joke. I made a month ago. And he said, with House's affinity for food and drinks, my mind went to sponsorship opportunities. For each pick, House comes out with a different food or drink option for different sponsors and league partners and says, Arby's Steak Bites brings us the 31st pick. And with that, the Knicks select blank. I'm not going to be the NBA commissioner. I still feel like Kaus could do the second round and they could have food sponsors for each pick.

1:07:48Bill Simmons:I think he would do better than Mark Tatum, honestly.

1:07:50Joe House:I think it's a great idea.

1:07:51Bill Simmons:I think he could be eating when he walks out on stage. I think it works.

1:07:55Joe House:I think a different surprise second round announcer every year is a great gimmick. You just got to keep it under wraps and just, here comes the smoke machine.

1:08:05Bill Simmons:The NFL does it.

1:08:06Joe House:Yeah. I saw they had different people coming out making different announcements, but just one guy could be, could be anyone. It could be a music artist, could be Joe House. It could be you. It could be anybody.

1:08:18Bill Simmons:I'm available.

1:08:20Joe House:The more tough to pronounce names, the better for you.

1:08:23Bill Simmons:Kobe from Oakland now in Vancouver says, Harper quickly emerges as a prodigy and potential great, but Fox is in his way. What similar NBA situations from the past can help us predict future outcomes? And he said, the first one that came to mind for him was Curry Ellis, where it was the two of them together. Now that team had never won anything. This team made the finals. So I came up with four and then I came up with the winner. I'm not prepping you for this. No. There was a Cedric Maxwell, Kevin McHale situation where McHale eventually took over, but it was kind of the way it was going to go anyway.

1:08:57Bill Simmons:So I don't think that counts.

1:08:58Joe House:That was pretty seamless, the transition.

1:09:00Bill Simmons:There was a James Worthy, Jamal Wilk situation on those Laker teams, but that was also, one guy was getting older, one guy was about to take over. I don't think that counts. There was a Jamal Wilkes, Rick Barry, mid seventies warrior situation that Jamal Wilkes solved by signing with the Lakers as a free agent. And we never found out. And then there was a Norm Nixon, Magic Johnson situation.

1:09:23Joe House:That was the one I thought where you were going to, you were going to start with.

1:09:25Bill Simmons:Where they traded Norm Nixon, got the number one pick from the Clippers. They took Byron Scott, similar to the Jalen Brown trades we were talking earlier. I don't have that as my answer either because that Laker team won a title. the answer is Adrian Dantley and Dennis Rodman in the late 80s Pistons when they traded Dantley because Rodman had to play more and that was the whole point of the trade they had this absolute one of a kind rebounding defense force that just needed more minutes and Dantley wasn't ready to play less and they solved it by trading for Aguirre who was Isaiah's buddy I was going to say that

1:10:02Joe House:that's a whole Chicago connection between Mark McGuire and Isaiah Dunn. They won two titles.

1:10:07Bill Simmons:But that's a really good parallel to this because Adrian Danley, a little bit older. The question for me with Fox, because there's some interesting stats about didn't finish at the rim as much this season. Not as fast. He was probably the fastest or one of the fastest guys in the league. Didn't seem as fast. So is there wear and tear? Is he getting older or was he just hurt this year? Did you land on an answer for that?

1:10:28Joe House:I think it's probably a little bit of both. I mean, that level of speed and athleticism doesn't last forever. and then you throw in some playoff, some ill time. He started the year coming back from, well, it was some sort of leg injury, hamstring or a shin or something, or calf rather, or something, and then finished it with a high ankle sprain. But, like, also that's life in the NBA. How many guys – you're not getting through 100 games just like, oh, I was just healthy and energetic the entire year. That's just not realistic. And I just think, like, you can throw all the fake Fox trades you want out right now.

1:10:59Joe House:I don't think any team is trading for him without another season of him kind of rehabbing his game and his trade value a little bit. I don't see any realistic trade this offseason.

1:11:08Bill Simmons:So you think he's a top five when Waz and House and I did the worst contracts draft? He's top five for you now? 221 for four years?

1:11:17Joe House:I mean, it's just a huge number. And people are already like, well, is he the third best guard on his team? And he's a very, very good player. but if you're having that conversation and that number hasn't even kicked in yet, like it's probably in the top five.

1:11:30Bill Simmons:It's a gulp and a sigh when you hear the numbers. It's like,

1:11:37Bill Simmons:Steve from Tobaccoville, North Carolina. Sure. He thinks we should have a playoffs participation trophy. Shout out to Vince Goodwill, which goes to

1:11:51Bill Simmons:Fitz is a nice guy, which goes to the team who lost to the team who lost to the team who lost to the team who lost

1:11:58Joe House:in the finals so he said you're gonna have to well i'll walk you through it the 26 trophy our

1:12:04Bill Simmons:winner would have been the houston rockets they lost to the lakers who lost to the thunder who lost to the spurs who lost to the knicks this trophy reminds the team's fan base that wow they made the playoffs they weren't anywhere close your thoughts so it kind of like this it has to be a first round loser that's a first round loser who loses to the team that lost to the team three times in a row well it's not it's not dissimilar to the thing you hear from fans

1:12:29Joe House:sometimes if you know our team loses in the second round and it's a crushing disappointment we were the higher seed or whatever it is and then but the team we end up losing to ends up winning the titles i kind of feel better about my you know my second round loss it's a cousin of that. So the Rockets, the turnovers at the end of, what was it, game two of that series? You're disqualified from all of the awards. I don't want any of the awards. Maybe it's not an

1:12:53Bill Simmons:award. Maybe it's like a voodoo doll or something. Did we ever figure out what, speaking of

1:12:59Joe House:which, did we ever figure out what Missoula did with the Coach of the Year trophy? Do we know that it's around somewhere? Oh my God, I look at eBay every day.

1:13:04Bill Simmons:I'm ready to bid on it on eBay. It's definitely in his garage. Robbie wants to know if Jalen Brunson was actually the best free agent signing of all time and says, I find this hard to believe.

1:13:17Joe House:You do, Robbie. Well, I have a couple

1:13:21Bill Simmons:that I think were bigger. Okay. I think Shaq to the Lakers in 96. Eight years, three rings, four finals, one MVP. That's just a bigger signing than Brunson. Sorry. LeBron and Bosh. Durant to Golden State, that's two titles. LeBron back to Cleveland in 14 and then bringing Cleveland a title, I think has to be dead even with Brunson to the Knicks. so i would have it tied for fourth i i think part of the reason why people would make the argument

1:13:47Joe House:that it should be higher and i'm not sure that it is the shack one is a great is a great call and obviously like doomed orlando forever and ever and there's all sorts of controversy about who offered what and when and what went wrong and all that um is it's the only one of those that's not a max right like brunson is not a max and you kind of have to piggyback on top of it the extension that wasn't a max that has allowed them to sort of wiggle around under the second apron for a

1:14:10Bill Simmons:little while here uh that's gonna be pablo's next five parts here well he's a knicks fan i guess he can't do it the jay one taking less i'm still still i don't think still dubious i don't think

1:14:21Joe House:there's any secrets there he knew exactly what he was doing he trusts that he's going to be taken care of on the back end because he knows all these people they're his family and he wants to win and it helped them win i don't think there's any like i think it's a unique one-of-one situation that is that is unreplicable.

1:14:38Bill Simmons:A couple other ones. Gus Williams to Seattle. That led to a title. Jamal Wilkes to the Lakers. Chauncey Billups to Detroit. Ray Allen to Miami. The shot. Robert Hort to San Antonio in 2003. And then Nash to Phoenix was a great one. I think if the question is, what's the savviest free agent of all time, signing of all time, I think Brunson might win. Where they went higher than a lot of people thought. it was not a well-received signing, right? It was four for 106 from a team that wouldn't pay him four for 55. And the way it worked out. A couple other random ones, Rashard Lewis and Carlos Boozer, both really good ones.

1:15:20Bill Simmons:Didn't leak the titles. Rashard Lewis led to a finals. But okay, I'm really excited for this next question. We're almost done, by the way. James Phelps. Yeah. Have you been watching the World Cup, Zach? well. I don't want to talk about the World Cup, but yeah, I've been watching some of it. He likes, James Phelps likes that in soccer they have specific jersey numbers for certain positions. Attacking mid, number 10. Striker, 9. Defensive stopper, usually 6. So what would you do for basketball and should we do it? So it's a two-part question. What would the numbers be? Because he said, like, shooting guard, 23.

1:15:57Bill Simmons:Small forward, 33. And would you like it more if the best players on teams wore the numbers that the best players wear like in soccer i gotta say i did thought experimented out and i kind of enjoyed it i can't believe you i can

1:16:14Joe House:see you doing this i can see you you put out a pad and paper and you started right you took this thought about it sometime in your life that could otherwise have been spent with your wife or

1:16:24Bill Simmons:children was spent was spent on this the mailbag you have to take to the end with all questions 23, shooting guard. 21, power forward in honor of Duncan. Okay. Six for center. For Bill Russell.

1:16:41Joe House:Sure.

1:16:42Bill Simmons:33, small forward for Bird. And then one or 32 for point guard. I would vote for 32 because of magic. The thinking is the best guys ever would all get the numbers. But I do like the concept of like if San Antonio right now, it's like... Harper Fox is wearing 32. Should Harper have it? It's the point guard number. Who's going to? Yeah.

1:17:06Joe House:Okay. And when he would wear six in this, when he would wear six, this is particularly artful what you're doing because LeBron is not represented except he is. He's 23 and 23.

1:17:18Bill Simmons:So 23 in soccer, 10 is like the number.

1:17:21Joe House:I know that much. That's the best guys. Luca Modric.

1:17:24Bill Simmons:So in this, we have 23, which is shooting guard, but it's also like LeBron basically could have played any position. It's not like you can pigeonhole him. So 23 is like the number and that's, you know, like Orlando, ah, Palo wanted 23, but Franz thinks he should have it. I think it opens up for a lot of drama.

1:17:41Joe House:You're just creating trade rumors. You're just creating trade rumors. Whose team is it? Your whole, your team is being perhaps. Tatum's out for the year. Jalen wears, Jalen wears the 33. Yeah. I do like this though. I think I've been, my mind immediately went to Jay Crowder can't be 99. We were just, we were censoring individual expression like this. I mean, like, you know, I like numbers. I like being able to pick my number.

1:18:08Bill Simmons:Ethan from Cleveland says when Giannis forces a trade, it will be the second time this summer. A team owned by Jimmy Haslam has traded a generational talent. He screwed up the Browns and Bucks so badly. His teams are forced to trade both Garrett and Giannis in the same off season. Miles Garrett. Um, Um, does this move him toward the top of the list of one of the worst owners in recent sports history? I mean, just his Brown's work alone has done that. I can't really hang the buck stuff on him as much. Um, cause when he got there, it was kind of, that was one of the reasons, um, that, uh, Lasbree sold in the first place.

1:18:43Bill Simmons:Cause it was like, I'm going to get up from this black jab table right now. Cause they just changed dealers on me and he just got out. with that said it is pretty crazy that he presides over those two teams that just traded their two best franchise guys they are one of the two teams along with phoenix that i have to remind myself

1:19:01Joe House:when i go on spot track i got to scroll down a little further to the dead money section to get their true cap number it's like oh my god bradley beal what are you doing here damian lillard oh my God. 22 a year for nothing. I did the Suns cap sheet earlier today because of their Gillespie and Jordan Goodwin deals. I was like, oh, they're in pretty good shape. And I scrolled. Ah!

1:19:24Bill Simmons:Tax! Dead Money sounds like a movie we could rent on Roku. Moses says, my question regarding Darren Peterson, why would anyone draft this guy in the top three? It's not often we see a guy with this many red flags pan out. I really think he's going to be a bust. I would gamble on my four, but I would much rather have the other three. Thanks. Love the podcast.

1:19:47Joe House:What a, what a bus. So he's going to, he's a bus and he's like, I'll take him at four. That's like, if you're a bus, just go all the, just if he's a bus, don't take him.

1:19:54Bill Simmons:Moses was all over the place. I do think Peterson has enough red flags that the moment of truth, I'd be a little nervous when these other three guys, I think are all going to be really, really, really awesome. Like you better really be sold on the reasons Peterson had the cramping stuff and some of the other stuff happened last year. I don't, where did you land on him? I mean, when you look at the YouTube clips, it's out of control.

1:20:17Joe House:He's, he looks awesome. Uh, I think the upside, I think he has scary, scary upside. Uh, I would take him with one of the first two picks just because I've heard all of the teams have seen every bit of medical data that they would want to see and have come away feeling like, okay, like there's nothing here that is a long-term concern.

1:20:37Bill Simmons:So you liked him more than Boozer.

1:20:38Joe House:I love Boozer. Boozer's so good. He's incredible. I think his floor is maybe even higher than anyone else in the draft, and his ceiling is pretty damn high, too. I just think those two guys as fulcrums of elite offenses could be so special that I don't know if I could take Boozer over either DeBansa or Peterson. But I love Boozer. I was absolutely blown away by the Boozer tape, as I've mentioned several times on the Zach Lowe show.

1:21:08Bill Simmons:This is the most Zach Lowe question possible. It's from Connor in Bend, Oregon. Every time I listen to people praise the Knicks roster construction, I think to myself, my Blazers did it first. 2015, Dame, Wesley Matthews, Nick Batum, Aldridge, Robin Lopez. A season that ended with the Blazers getting dog walked by Memphis, Dame getting his playoff lumps, and Wes tearing his Achilles. with my dread at the possibility of our new owner moving the team. It's nice to imagine another reality where the Blazers won a championship. So Dame wasn't really Dame yet. In that playoffs in Memphis, he was 16 % from three.

1:21:50Bill Simmons:Memphis beat them in five. But he is right. That was the construction. It was a little bit similar to that next construction. Aldridge left after the season. That Blazers team, I went back, that team was really good on paper. They traded for Aflalo. They had CJ McCollum, younger. They had Myers Leonard. They had Alan Crabb, a year away from getting paid$72 million by the Nets. Pretty solid team. The Wes Matthews thing killed them, though.

1:22:16Joe House:Look, that could be my burner account from Ben to Oregon who emailed that in. I knew you'd love it. It's one of my most beloved forgotten teams ever. I absolutely love that team. It's Nick Batum. It's Robin Lopez, Wesley Matthews. Everything just came. They were a classic greater than the sum of their parts team, and they were super fun to watch. And then one by one, it all kind of came undone, starting with Wes tearing his Achilles. And then L.A. leaves in free agency, I believe, after that playoff loss too. And so that was hanging over the team all year. It was a beautiful team to watch. They won a lot of games.

1:22:48Joe House:And I do think they had an outside chance of having, like, making a finals. And they just didn't. And that's tough, man. It's hard to win a title.

1:22:58Bill Simmons:These two are related. One's from EB who says he's a Homer Milwaukee fan. He gets upset that people don't mention Giannis' 50-point closeout game six. Why is Brunson's thing over that already? So he had a whole thing about that. And then Jordan from Hoboken said, everything you have said on your pods about Jalen Brunson should also apply to Eli Manning. Being an Alphana championship team trumps everything. Eli did it twice. You bump Brunson all the way up to 41 on your Pantheon or your Pyramid. imagine if uh he did what he did twice he left should be in the hall of fame blah blah blah um here's here's the difference comparing brunson to eli manny and yannis this will

1:23:38Joe House:be the first podcast this is this i i can't wait for this um

1:23:45Bill Simmons:there was a real inevitability with what was happening with brunson in these fourth quarters that i think kind of kind of trumped that yeah as great as that yannis 50 point game was it was a lot of chewing your nails that he was going to make free throws. And he was on a little bit of a heater. And then Eli was basically would have a couple of great throws, but it wasn't like he was dominant. Brunson broke the Spurs by game five. I just felt like I just value a little differently what he did, the playoffs and especially game five. And I think it's hard to compare it.

1:24:22Joe House:First of all, Giannis's 50 point closeout game is being mentioned because every graphic on television that has had like here's where jalen brunson's closeout game ranks nba history is mentioning that game it's an all-time classic game the drew the drew to janice lob is one of the craziest most iconic plays that was game five though okay no that's the end of the series that's game five was in phoenix and then game six was the 50 point game that was the game when he couldn't shoot the free throws that's all right um but he has a preposterous free throw line in the He made it.

1:24:53Bill Simmons:Remember, he missed the two near the end of game five, and it was a whole thing of, oh, Giannis' free throws. And then he went on the heater in game six. I felt like Brunson was a level above it. When it gets to the point where you're down 10 and you're just like, ah, here comes Brunson, that's a whole other level.

1:25:11Joe House:Against Wembenyama and that defense, too. I mean, look, it's all incredible, but Brunson, Giannis, two great closeout games, and I don't, you know, I don't have a strong take. I guess Brunson, Brunson is just sexier because it's like a six foot nothing point guard in real time problem solving.

1:25:30Bill Simmons:It's a hard work title.

1:25:31Joe House:Well, just problem solving. It's like, you're over there, you're over here. We're going to do this. We're going to do that. And I'm just going to get to my spot no matter what you do and make tough shots, tough classic NBA shots. Giannis is not a classic NBA shot, shot maker, Brunson is.

1:25:45Bill Simmons:Seth from 707 says, Hey, conspiracy bill, was that finals loss all part of Wimbanyama's long game to convince us that he's not an alien.

1:25:53Joe House:Oh, interesting.

1:25:55Bill Simmons:Like he zagged on us because he was like, if I win the title at age 22, they might investigate me. They might find out where I'm actually from. I really like this idea.

1:26:05Joe House:As an old school X-Files fan, I'm all about it. Have you seen Disclosure Day yet? No, I still haven't. What do you think? No, I haven't seen it yet. I've seen it this week. It might be a solo, I'm just going to drive to movie theater in the middle of the day by myself and watch it um man there's a chris paul question here

1:26:23Bill Simmons:that i'm going to skip it was about chris paul and the pyramid because we're running out of time i'll save it for the next time um tiago wanted to mention that he's forever grateful for leon ross leon rose and the knicks has there ever been a front office roster combination that saved the image of an owner more than these guys saved dolan who is considered one of the stupidest owners of all time, mishandled the team for decades in the market. And now, um, they win the title. It's a really good one. I didn't think of like, I couldn't think of another owner that had his legacy just flipped like that.

1:26:58Bill Simmons:The only one that was close was Steinbrenner in 96 because they hadn't won for 18 years. And he kind of, he went crazy Steinbrenner in the eighties and early nineties was like, Oh my God, this guy's deranged. And then all of a sudden they filled around the farm system and they built this next dynasty and it kind of flipped the steinbrenner narrative again

1:27:18Joe House:so when i get to go so deranged they had larry david made a seinfeld caricature of him and people are like that sounds about right like that doesn't seem too deranged at all yeah um but yeah that's that's a good one and then uh there was this email from david hartman because i've been talking a lot

1:27:35Bill Simmons:about home field advantage and home court advantage and what's happened and he reminded me that Wertham and Moskowitz did that book, Scorecasting, when we were at Cleveland. Really good. And the first chapter is about home field advantage. They crunched the data. The writers concluded the single biggest factor was referee bias. They dismissed travel, crowd noise, everything else, and concluded subconsciously or subconsciously, the refs don't want to piss off the home crowd. And then he said, in the last 15 years, we have technology replays. We have these referee grading systems are different.

1:28:07Joe House:pretty good explanation right i gotta tell you it's a good explanation i think the referees are tougher and better trained um tougher in terms of like i don't think they care about the crowd i will say i'm getting it's it's old man yells a cloud of me i'm getting pretty close to the how about we just review nothing solution to basketball just like how about there's no reviews because i just these games just take forever and the reviews sap all about soccer's

1:28:34Bill Simmons:fast well soccer they're banging these out and it's like how is this a hundred times easier than

1:28:39Joe House:basketball soccer do are they stopping the clock for the hydration break in the world club okay so they're at least stopping the clock for that um yeah because i would love to introduce soccer to the stop and to stop watch it's a great great adventure seven seven minutes just gonna do seven

1:28:58Bill Simmons:everyone good with that seven that would have been funny if they did that for game five of the finals the Spurs now have two extra minutes four

1:29:06Joe House:okay I guess it's four four on the dot Caleb

1:29:10Bill Simmons:wants to know Jimmy Butler demanded a trade from Minnesota because he hated playing with Towns and Wiggins and now Wiggins and Towns are now champions and Butler is not and likely won't ever be one is he going to snap this summer

1:29:24Joe House:I thought it was going to the question was going to go the other way and say who was who has been most wrong exiting a team about the internal makeup of the team they exited.

1:29:39Bill Simmons:Pretty crazy, though. Yeah, I mean, like, Cat and Wiggins got it done. A couple more really quick. OG, Lawrence from Toronto, asks if OG is the GOAT player with no all-star selections. Right now, probably Andre Miller was in the lead before that finals.

1:29:55Joe House:So I did the research. You want to hear that? I did a deep dive. basketball reference I looked at OG stats and only regular season stats because that's the only way you can do it and I went over 7 ,000 career points he's right around 7 ,200 PR above 13 win shares above 35 value over a placement player above 10 because he's that's where he is no all-star appearances the most points scored for the answer is no I just despite the fact that you have to account for what just happened in the playoffs, like 21 a game on insane shooting, the iconic tip-in. I mean, Eddie Johnson has 19 ,000 career points and never made an all-star team.

1:30:37Joe House:Our friend Eddie Johnson from Johnson and Termini? I was surprised, too. He's on this list. No all-stars. No all-stars. He's not an all-star. He's part of my search.

1:30:47Bill Simmons:Well, he deserves it. He's a Jokic. Eddie Johnson, that's what you get for hating Jokic.

1:30:51Joe House:Andre Miller's up there. CJ McCollum just in the news today, like three games into this playoffs would have been the answer to this question. Uh, and I just think there are too many, uh, Sam Perkins is on here. Robert Ori is on here. That's an interesting one. Oh, Robert Horry is a good one. Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of, there's a lot of, uh, a lot of, let me see who else I wrote down.

1:31:11Bill Simmons:Cause Sam Perkins is a nice one too.

1:31:12Joe House:Yeah, no, there's a lot of, um, there was Michael Cooper,

1:31:15Bill Simmons:Marcus can be Jason Terry.

1:31:17Joe House:Lamar Odom is on here. There's some good ones. Tony Kukoc. So what do you think the answer is? I think the answer is I can't. Right now, no. Just because like the career stats are in his miscarriage.

1:31:31Bill Simmons:He needs another like seven, eight years.

1:31:32Joe House:Yeah. But because those guys are pretty, like Jamal Crawford has 19 ,000 some points. Those are pretty accomplished dudes. Grant Hill is, or I'm sorry, I saw George Hill. It's George Hill. Forget it. No, Grant Hill. Your guy, George Hill. I just think there are too many. Aaron Gordon is a good one for this. Another championship, second, third wheel. That's a really good one.

1:31:54Bill Simmons:And put us some stats. So I mentioned Mark...

1:31:58Joe House:Mikael Bridges, by the way. He's on this list too.

1:32:02Bill Simmons:Consecutive game streak. He's kind of messed around with. Mark, I messed up this email. He said he watched Without Limits. Couldn't help but wonder if the Knicks figured out the Bill Bowerman success equation and basically how he told Steve Prontane, stop front running because he'd lose. You're burning out your gas in the beginning, Spurs style. I screwed this up when I did the pod and I talked about how he would roar from behind. Bowerman was the one that was like, you're expending too much energy, stay behind, come up in the end. And was that basically what the Knicks were doing with the Bill Bowerman strategy of they would let the Spurs punch themselves out basically and then come in late.

1:32:40Bill Simmons:So I wanted to apologize to him. Okay. This is the last one, Zach. Jeff M. Oh, boy. He said, in honor of From Hell Month on the rewatchables, two coming this week, I wanted to present the case on the Pacers having one of the worst From Hell years in sports history. We lose the final after our beloved star tears his Achilles in game seven after hitting three threes. The same star gets shingles, derailing his recovery. Our tank season is rewarded by losing our lottery pick in a 50-50 coin flip. our arch nemesis wins the championship without having to play us and simultaneously kills the Halliburton shot and Reggie Miller it's been one gut punch after another I fully suspect Halliburton to get attacked with African as bees this summer I've been riding with you for almost 20 years by far my longest relationship that's Jeff M and then Samir chimed in I've had enough of everyone applauding the 26 Knicks without mentioning that I never went through the team that knocked them out the last two years.

1:33:38Bill Simmons:I can't remember another NBA team who just got to avoid beating their bugaboo team to win it all. Just a brutal way to wrap up the most devastating Pacers year. So I got a lot of Pacer emails like this. And when you talked about winners and losers, I think the Nets were the biggest loser of that finals. I think the Pacers were like second. The Pacers a year ago were riding high with their fans. And a year later, on top of everything else that happened to them, they had to watch the Knicks win the title. It's brutal.

1:34:05Joe House:you know it's funny that it didn't pop into my head that way it funny because the Halliburton shot has been so in my mind because of what happened in game one of the conference finals this year where the Knicks pulled the reverse comeback and have the shot that hits the rim and bounces in so it's not like that team's been forgotten but yeah you're you're right the Pacers eliminated the Knicks two years in a row the first one I the Knicks just like ran out of players I think they were the better team in that series probably and just like everybody got hurt including Brunson in the last game. And Anobi could barely move, if you remember that.

1:34:36Joe House:But yeah, I mean, look, the Pacers, this is why they're one of my more interesting teams coming into the next season. A, like half their team is extension L's will. And B, they just made the Zubats trade that became a little bit more painful for them than maybe they anticipated. But they're loaded for Bear next year. Like, why not? Why not them as your East favorite? Why not?

1:34:55Bill Simmons:The biggest question would be Halliburton. What's he going to look like next year? Agreed. But Zubats will be better for them. They basically have everybody else back in some form. Same coach, all that stuff. And I got an email from Mark G. A couple people asked this too. The Halliburton actually getting hurt in Game 7. Is that officially moving to one of the higher levels of great what-ifs in the history of the league? No question. It's also like... If they win that game, does all the Brunson stuff happen with Halliburton last year? To some degree. It probably... I mean, his stats weren't as good.

1:35:28Bill Simmons:He was 18-9-6 in the finals. Brunson 33 in the final like there was something different to what brunson was doing but however it was in

1:35:35Joe House:the vicinity what if oklahoma city has still has not won a title like what i mean again if we're doing what ifs like they lose that finals and then that this year happens exactly what as it happened and they're still right like what is this offseason like for them if they haven't won uh a title it's also like the one of the most i mean there's been obviously like gruesome injuries happen more than you would like there was just one in a soccer game the other day for canada right like those are horrible but in terms of just like taking away the drama and of a big moment like that i i can't remember anything quite on that level to the point that when brunson went down in game one of these finals i had like ptsd from that like you do not like we've just spent a week hyping up this finals everyone is beyond amped up please do not let this be a thing that just erodes the finals.

1:36:27Joe House:And like that, I can't remember ever feeling like that during a game. Like that was game seven. Forget that he starts hot and all that. It's like this magical run by a team that pretty much no one saw getting that far in the playoffs and they might actually pull this thing off.

1:36:40Bill Simmons:That had never won the title.

1:36:41Joe House:Never won the title. Obviously, ABA, they won titles. ABA, yeah, 50 plus years ago. But like, I just, and then the whole game was weird after. Even the Patriots being, weren't the Patriots ahead at halftime by like, or it was like a one point game at halftime. I mean, it just, it felt like you were a zombie the rest of the night.

1:36:57Bill Simmons:SGA talked about it during the playoffs, actually saying he wanted to win again because it was so weird the way they won the title the first time. He almost wanted a normal version of the same experience. That Halliburton thing was like a black cloud over that whole night. All right. Zach Lowe, doing a podcast tomorrow?

1:37:14Joe House:I think so.

1:37:15Bill Simmons:We're all kind of on Giannis, waiting on Giannis.

1:37:18Joe House:We're on call.

1:37:19Bill Simmons:We're like doctors. We're on call with Giannis.

1:37:21Joe House:Yeah, and then, yeah. At the mercy of Giannis, Trace. I have a busy sports fan week coming up. And so we're going to have to find ways to pot around that. And during the NBA draft, I will be in, weather permitting, in whatever stadium they're playing in Toronto, watching Croatia play Panama. And I can't, I really, it's my first international soccer game, first big international soccer game ever. I really wanted to just like, I want to sing the songs. I want to drink. I don't want to be sober. Now I got to be sober because the draft is going to be happening. Who knows? I might podcast that night after the game.

1:37:53Joe House:I'm robbed of like full hooliganism. I'm robbed of it.

1:37:56Bill Simmons:I think it's just pod the next day. Just have the whole experience.

1:38:00Joe House:I'll be there with my Croatian brothers and sisters. We've got to win this one. Got to win. Got to get a W.

1:38:05Bill Simmons:All right. Good luck. Thanks for popping on. Going to bring in Joe House right now to recap the US Open. Oh boy. Bye, Zach. Bye. Have fun. This episode is brought to you by Expedia. Family vacations are the absolute best. I think my favorite place that I've been to a bunch of times with my family is Hawaii, a place that we could not go to when I lived on the East Coast because it was too far away and we went to the West Coast. And now it's like just close enough. Really fun. Sun's out every day. Nice hot sun. Just happy. Get to eat fish. But listen, when you're booking a family vacation and you're quartering everyone's calendars and agreeing where to go and snagging deals before it's too late.

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1:39:10Joe House:For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters. Tremphaya offers self-injection or intravenous infusion from the start. Tremphaya is administered as injections under the skin or infusions through a vein every four weeks, followed by injections under the skin every four or eight weeks. If your doctor decides that you can self-inject Tremphaya, proper training is required. Tremphaya is a prescription medicine used to treat adults with moderately to severely active Crohn's disease and adults with moderately to severely active ulcerative colitis. serious allergic reactions, increased risk of infections or lower ability to fight them,

1:39:49Bill Simmons:and liver problems may occur. Before treatment, get checked for infections and tuberculosis.

1:39:54Joe House:Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, or need a vaccine. Explore what's possible.

1:40:00Bill Simmons:Ask your doctor about Tremphaya today. Call 1-800-526-7736 to learn more or visit TremphayaRadio.com. is house coming on I see a black screen I still see a black screen can you hear me there he is hey house yeah we did it hey we did Zach Lowe bye Zach bye boys I saved one last mailbag question for you before you tell us what happened in the US Open let's go because we did a bunch of Pacer ones but I had to save this specifically for you Connor from Indianapolis did the last two years of the Indiana Pacers mirror the plot in Boogie Nights up until game seven of 2025 finals. Being a Pacers fan was like being a 1970s Dirk Diggler fan.

1:40:47Bill Simmons:Things were looking great. Then the ball dropped and it's 1980. Halliburton gets taken out like Little Bill's wife to team tanks and loses their pick like Amber Waves loses custody of her kid. All while seeing their rival, the Knicks, replace them like Johnny Doe. Watching the Pacers on League Pass was as bad as Dirk's music career. Can you give us more sports parallels to the cast of Boogie Nights with the Pacers? keeps going. So that would be Kevin Pritchard, the GM is Jack Horner. Halliburton is dirt. Pascal Siakam is Amber waves. It's my dojo.

1:41:21Zach Lowe:We got to do somebody. Kevin Pritchard is, is, is worse than Jack. Kevin, Kevin Pritchard. Yeah. He's, he, he should be in jail for what he did. with that trick.

1:41:33Bill Simmons:Nembhard as Reed Rothschild. That's pretty good. Aaron Neesmith as Roller Girl. Sure. You never know when he's just going to pop in and change a game. TJ McConnell as Becky Barnett. OG Toppin as Buck. That's pretty good. You kind of never know where he fits in, but he's always ambitious. Miles Turner, definitely Little Bill. Just out. Matherin as Todd Parker. Todd! And then Brunson's Johnny Doe. And I think that's it. You went through the whole thing. Yeah, I did boogie nuts and pacers for you. Okay. Great job. So we started this live podcast during the last few holes of the U.S. Open. I assumed Wyndham Clark was going to take care of business.

1:42:16Bill Simmons:You're going to be talking about it with Nathan later tonight on Fairway Rollin. But he made it a little hairy. He won by a stroke? Yes.

1:42:22Zach Lowe:What happened? He bogeyed the 17th hole, which is a par three. He was on the green, and he left himself. This was part of his true secret sauce this entire golf tournament. He made so many pars from 10 feet, from 6 feet, from 13 feet. He saved par like crazy, and then it came all the way down to the very end. And the 17th hole, he had a reasonable 5 or 6 footer. And he gacked it? He gacked it, but he validated because he came out on the 18th hole. His approach was short. He was 52 feet from the hole on the putt that he had on the 18th hole. He needed to get down in two to win the golf tournament, and he putted it to like two inches.

1:43:11Zach Lowe:I mean, it was an awesome putt that he made on 18th. So you're rooting for the playoff.

1:43:15Bill Simmons:And you also don't, you're not a big Wyndham Clark guy.

1:43:17Zach Lowe:Well, I don't think I'm alone in that. Yeah, can we dive into this? Sure. Yeah.

1:43:24Bill Simmons:So he wins wire to wire and he's American and it's the U S open. And yet you could feel it in the crowd all weekend. Um, tepid applause for the good shots. And then, uh, if something bad happened, you could hear a couple of people doing like cheering over there. It was just what it seems like all of these little tiny things that he did, but nothing major, but they all added up and people have just decided, I don't like this guy.

1:43:49Zach Lowe:Well, there was a back-to-back, speaking of major, a bit of misbehavior last year. At 2025 at the PGA Championship, he threw his driver, snapped it, and it came close to hitting somebody behind him. He was angry with the shot with his driver, snapped it, threw it, and almost hit somebody. Well, maybe that person shouldn't have been there. Well, that person was just standing behind the tee. I mean, that person was not in harm's way. Should not have been in harm's way. And then he, the real cherry on top of the most infamous misbehavior was at Oakmont where the U.S. Open was conducted last year outside of Pittsburgh.

1:44:28Zach Lowe:One of America's all time great courses, a great U.S. Open menu with all of this history. Like when you walk into the clubhouse, the history, it's the same, you know, floors that people have been walking on. And when you go up to the locker room, they still have the wooden benches that have spike marks that are there that have been there for 80 years or so. And homie played terrible on, I think, Friday and went up in there with some kind of weapon and smashed in one of these lockers that have been there for decades and kind of rolled out without going or doing the appropriate thing. Without doing it on my bad?

1:45:08Zach Lowe:Yeah, no, my bad. And so, you know, he's been living with that since and it really made him unpopular. And there was not a giant act of remorse and contrition to follow quickly enough, I think, for at least sort of golf sickos to where it was clear like he he's he has owned it since then. And he did, you know, pay for restitution. He did make a charitable contribution. So he basically became Patrick Reed from this. A little bit. Yes. And, you know, in some respects, we've been missing, speaking of Patrick Reed, a villain in golf.

1:45:45Bill Simmons:I was going to say, all this sounds great. Like, we always talk about how fucking boring golfers are. And then we have a guy destroy a locker at Oakmont.

1:45:52Joe House:Everybody's like, put him in fucking jail. You're right.

1:45:55Bill Simmons:Put him in a straight jacket.

1:45:56Joe House:Definitely.

1:45:57Bill Simmons:People get so mad. Pick a side. Do we want charismatic fucking crazy golfers or just boring guys?

1:46:03Zach Lowe:What do we want? Well, he got his act together. And today was especially compelling because the entire crowd was rooting for Scotty Scheffler, who he was playing with. The crowd was rooting for Scotty Scheffler because it was Scotty's chance to win the Grand Slam, his first chance to complete the Grand Slam. He didn't have it.

1:46:22Bill Simmons:I watched the first 15 holes before we went live on Netflix, and he just couldn't get it going. He just couldn't make a putt. He just couldn't get over it.

1:46:29Zach Lowe:He was getting, you know, especially on the back, his approach play was very good. He was putting himself in position to make birdies. He just couldn't get any of those putts to drop. And Clark hung on. He got out to far enough lead on Thursday. He just hung on for dear life. I mean, after Thursday, he shot two over par over his remaining three rounds.

1:46:48Bill Simmons:But not the right two over for you because you were shorting him yesterday.

1:46:53Zach Lowe:I sure did short him yesterday.

1:46:55Bill Simmons:With some wagers. That's true.

1:46:56Zach Lowe:I had him over 71 and a half strokes yesterday. He did that today.

1:47:01Bill Simmons:Did you have that today?

1:47:01Zach Lowe:I didn't touch it today. I left alone all the betting with him.

1:47:05Bill Simmons:It was a classic. He's up six. Whoa, now he's up three. Yes. Within a half hour of when the tournament started.

1:47:13Zach Lowe:There was regression built into the performance, especially yesterday. I mean, he really pulled the Saturday round even par out of his butt. I mean, it was a miracle that he saved par from several places. And he had really the whole of the tournament was the eagle that he made on 16 on Saturday in front of no fans whatsoever. Because yesterday, Saturday, they started the final groups off at 3.45, 3.30 in the afternoon because they wanted, for television purposes, for it to be some prime time and for that golf course out there in the Hamptons to get some of that late afternoon glow. Everybody got the fuck out of there.

1:47:53Zach Lowe:Everybody's like, I'm not sticking around to watch this. There's trains that take two hours to get to New York. So the golf course is basically empty. But the shot of the tournament was his approach on the 16th hole. He made Eagle the only guy the entire golf tournament to make Eagle on 16. And that to me was really the thing.

1:48:11Bill Simmons:Well, he won by a stroke. So that ended up winning him the tournament. Yeah. And then Sam Burns was great today. I got to see his whole round. Hard charge. He did it. He had a 49-footer at one point and did the whole thing.

1:48:24Zach Lowe:But it was just too much. He had putts on 17 and 18 if either one of those fall. Now, he didn't really make a great stroke on 17, but on 18, that ball was half a rotation from going into the hole. And then we would have had a playoff, and then that would have been something. Would that have been an 18-hole playoff or just a sudden death? No, so they changed that rule. It's now a two-hole aggregate, and I think they play the same hole on repeat. That's right. I forgot. They did that a little while ago. Yeah, I remember that.

1:48:56Bill Simmons:All right, so what's your grade for the tournament overall? It sounds like it was like all the golf threads were on and all the people we know, everybody like really seemed like they enjoyed rooting against Wyndham Clark, which is like a fun, it's a fun wrinkle for a golf tournament. It was like, we don't really have the American villain ever. Yeah.

1:49:14Zach Lowe:We, we didn't get kind of the carnage that this golf course can deliver because the, there was anticipated wind in the forecast Thursday and Friday, and it never really materialized. Wyndham Clark was supposed to be on the wrong side of the weather forecast on Thursday. His 64 was what won him the golf tournament. 64 Thursday afternoon when the winds were supposed to be at their worst. So that piece of it. And there was some complaints. The USGA was very careful to not have the golf course get away from them to where the balls were going to be because of the wind, you know, just rolling off willy nilly.

1:49:52Zach Lowe:So they watered the golf course. And there was some complaints that it was a little bit too easy earlier on. But, you know, I give it the whole thing overall, I guess, a solid B. I mean, wire to wire is pretty impressive out of Wyndham. He went out and did the damn thing. And we got one hard charge out of Sam Burns on Sunday, which is, I guess, all you could ask for. We needed somebody to do it. Yeah. Six-stroke lead going into Sunday, you know, leaves a lot to be desired in terms of the drama. But we got some drama.

1:50:21Bill Simmons:I'm asking Claude right now, how many two-time U.S. champions in golf have there been? What's the answer?

1:50:28Zach Lowe:I think six, seven.

1:50:30Bill Simmons:He won this a couple of years ago in 23. Yes. And then he wins this one. It's more than six or seven. But I'm still thinking.

1:50:39Zach Lowe:Yeah. It's more because Tiger and Jack both have multiple. 24 men. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I've done it. I was thinking about, there was a stat about how quickly guys have won. You know, after you win one, how quickly do you win your second? And he's in the top handful of guys. He did it in pretty short order. Where is he in the pecking order for American golfers now? Pretty high up. Sheffers won. Yeah. I mean, he immediately puts... He changed his putter at the Masters this year. And he was putting 135th on tour going into that tournament. And now he's number one on tour. And it was his putter that saved his ass all week long.

1:51:24Zach Lowe:and now it seems like the sky's the limit with the confidence that he has putting-wise because, you know, this Shinnecock is an enormous putting challenge and, you know, he was all around, though, very good. Off the tee, he was in the top 15. In his short game, he was top 15 and his putting, he was top five. That's how you win a U.S. Open. But he's pushing himself up.

1:51:46Bill Simmons:He has some long-ass fucking drives, too. Jesus Christ.

1:51:48Zach Lowe:Yeah, oh. Well, because they had the benefit of a very firm golf course. So, you know, Bryson had a 401 yard drive on the 18th hole before he missed the cut on Friday. But the. Yeah. By the way, that was your best pick of the week. Thank you. Yes, I did. You shorted Bryson. You said he wasn't going to make the cut. I did say that.

1:52:07Bill Simmons:What was it, like four to one? Three to one? No, no.

1:52:10Zach Lowe:The odds went way down. It started off near two to one for the week. And then as it got to be Wednesday going into Thursday, America woke up and jumped on it. I would like to say very humbly on fairway rolling two weeks ago, I said, I am betting to win at the U S open Wyndham Clark and Sam Burns. I had two picks that were from weeks ago that I said, I just want to have some money down at the time. Sam Burns was 40 to one. And at the time Wyndham Clark was 35 to one. So, um, you could just see those, both of those guys coming in, in, in very good.

1:52:42Bill Simmons:You should, you should text me that info as you're asking to borrow money to pay for your Saturday Wyndham Clark bets.

1:52:48Zach Lowe:Well, you could also listen to the show. I'll just bend my hand. You could listen to the show. I mean, that would be another thing.

1:52:53Bill Simmons:I'm just trying to, you know, because you did get killed on Saturday.

1:52:56Zach Lowe:I got killed by one bet. You were telling me Wyndham was going to hit like a 75. I thought he was going to shoot 73.

1:53:01Bill Simmons:Listen, there's so much to bet on right now. I mean, this World Cup, I'm just wading into these. I'm not even asking to bundle anymore. I'm just like, ah,

1:53:11Zach Lowe:Belgium. All right. I walked right into it. Hench put Turkey into a parlay for us. even after I swore off Turkey. I told everybody, never betting on Turkey again.

1:53:22Bill Simmons:All they did was take shots on the net that didn't go in for two hours.

1:53:26Zach Lowe:Sons of bitches. Unbelievable.

1:53:29Bill Simmons:I had a three-team parlay on Friday, and that was the last piece. It was like four to one. And then all they did was just shoot the ball over the net and head the ball to the side.

1:53:37Zach Lowe:We said don't bet on Turkey anymore, and then we did it. Unbelievable. Paraglide, park the bus. What team is Giannis on? I miss you, and I want to...

1:53:46Bill Simmons:But we don't know. He's going to wait until the most inappropriate time possible. The trade is going to be announced. The draft? Yeah, like one minute before the draft. I've loved the World Cup, though. Did you get patriotic on Friday?

1:54:01Zach Lowe:Oh, I mean, you know, it's must-see TV at this point now. This is because of how dominant U.S. was against Paraguay. And the eye-opening reaction by the soccer community taking U.S. seriously. like, well, if the soccer community is invested in this team and thinks that they're capable of great things, then I want to see it. I want to see what they're capable of. And I thought that performance against Australia, that was a trap game. But they didn't get trapped. They let themselves, you know, go out and feel it. I love, my guy is McKinney. I love that guy McKinney. I feel like he's the straw that stirs the drink.

1:54:37Bill Simmons:I love, honestly, they had the most likable group of dudes they've had. I love Jedi. by the Freeman. How about that? Antonio Freeman's son. Amazing. Unbelievable.

1:54:50Zach Lowe:This is what we've been begging for.

1:54:51Bill Simmons:Yeah. Right? These guys are badasses. Let's get our athletes. I didn't feel like we flopped that much. I just really, Balogun's been great. And we'll get Pulisic healthy. That's the key. What's happening with your team on Tuesday night? We still think you're taking AJ.

1:55:07Zach Lowe:I sure do. Yes, I do think that.

1:55:09Bill Simmons:Because they're trying. This always happens around the draft, where it's like, sources say the Wizards taking a longer look at Darren Peterson. It's like, they're taking AJ.

1:55:18Zach Lowe:My phone has sources say they're taking a long look at Peterson. And that's just people saying that to me. But I'm not permitting it. I'm not acknowledging it. AJ won.

1:55:30Bill Simmons:I heard Utah maybe had a secret workout of Peterson this weekend. Okay. I don't know what happens at two, though. I still think they're taking Boozer. but if, you know, one workout and obviously they have to do all the diligence on Peterson, what would you do if you were Utah? Take Boozer.

1:55:49Zach Lowe:I would take Boozer too. I think he raises their floor. And for that team, what they've assembled, you want somebody that's not a question mark in any way, shape or form that can immediately come in and help the overall, you know, help the tide rise up, you know, and be on the same time.

1:56:07Bill Simmons:I like having crazy front court depth and figuring it out because I think it's easier to get guards than at forwards. You don't have another pick though, right? No, I think that's it. You don't have one in the first arm. All right. And you'll try to trade Anthony Davis at some point. All right. You have to go do fairway rolling. Let's go. I'm going to see you on Tuesday night, live right after the draft. Me, you, J. Kyle, man, right afterwards. I cannot wait. We'll do winners and losers, all kinds of stuff. Maybe we don't need drunk house, but maybe like a couple drinks house. Yeah. I have to toast AJ.

1:56:41Bill Simmons:I have to welcome AJ to the city with an appropriate properly. Maybe sing a little Washington song. Um, thanks to Zach Glow. Thanks to Joe house. I'll see you on Tuesday night. Thanks to Gahau and Eduardo as well. Thanks to everybody who watched on Netflix. I'm going to see you again on, uh, on Tuesday night. Thanks house. My pleasure.

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