The Red-Hot Knicks, OKC’s Beat-Up-Wemby Ploy, a Mini-Mailbag, and ‘Survivor 50’ | With Rob Mahoney, Jason Concepcion, and Mallory Rubin

22:11Bill Simmons:And the answer was everything. The answer was, I mean, yes, it was. You're right that some of those plays are like borderline dirty. Some of them are very physical. It's like walking a very delicate line of not just like what is legal, but what is like in good taste as a competitor sometimes. Yeah. Great teams do that. Great teams have players who do that and can't understand how to like tow it and without going over too much. But the refs have to call some of it. Like this is a case where you could put together a super cut of 15 to 20 different Isaiah Hardenstein plays that are questionable in all sorts of ways.

22:42And some of them have to be called. Some of them were, not enough of them. I don't even really see that as being Isaiah Hardenstein's fault. Like he is playing the game and playing his role in the way that honestly, the thunder kind of require him to play it.

22:54Bill Simmons:I actually thought it was brilliant by him. And you could see him as the game was going on and be like, Oh, I guess they're going to just let me do this. He was even, he was doing something that I've always wondered why guys didn't do more is pulling Wemby away from the basket on drives so that he, he basically to slow him up on the offensive rebound. Every time it felt like he was getting some sort of advantage. I honestly thought it was brilliant, but I also couldn't believe the refs allowed it because it was pretty blatant. It's not like you couldn't see what he was doing. And I think if Wemby, the only thing he probably made a mistake on is he just should have had his arms up like this.

23:31Bill Simmons:Because I think it just would have been more clear that Hartenstein was grabbing him on the sides and stuff. But it was pretty effective. And I talked about this a couple weeks ago. This is Kareem. This was his entire career. Yeah. Guys doing this to him. Guys pushing him. Guys elbowing him in the back. guys trying to provoke him. And Kareem, I think, punched like five different guys that broke his hand on Kent Benson's face at one point. Wemby's gotten mad once. But my guess is Hartenstein will not be able to get away with this stuff in game three. I am guessing the Supercut was sent to the league today.

24:07Again, that's the Spurs job, right? It's like everyone kind of needs to play their role in response to these things and figure out how to navigate them. I don't know that we had a player like this who's officiating so unique maybe since Shaquille O 'Neal is there anyone in that time in terms of bigs that comes to mind for you?

24:24Bill Simmons:Yeah Shaq it just wasn't fair he could just get near the basket and he could just turn and dunk and so they started to do I remember this is where it was always tough for me to evaluate Shaq as like a top 15 guy because on the one hand I felt like he left stuff on the table and that He would always play himself into shape. And, you know, there was really only one season where you're like that. He was fucking awesome from beginning to end, which is his MVP season. On the other hand, I don't think it was fun to be Shaq eight months a year with the way he was guarded. True. And they would pull on his arms and they're pulling his shoulders.

24:59Bill Simmons:And that's why he ended up having shoulder problems. And I think with at least one of his shoulders over and over again, he's going, he's exploding to go up and they're just kind of grabbing and pulling him down. So I, I would say he was probably the last guy I can remember. where it was a constant dialogue. And then some of the stuff that Pistons did to Jordan was probably the other big example. Other than that, before that, people didn't play defense that way. And like LeBron has taken a lot of hits and a lot of kind of borderline hits over the course of his career, but it's totally different as a ball handler.

25:28I think this is where the Shaq-Wemby comparison or Kareem, if you want to loop him in, these bigs who are off the ball, trying to establish position, trying to set screens, there's just so much space for the officials to kind of like turn their head ever so slightly and miss crucial contact, crucial fouls. It's the reason why bigs in the league in general on offense are just not officiated fairly. They are not given the benefit of the doubt that guards are. I had wondered if Wemby might be the exceptions that just because of his frame, like you were saying, if he puts his hands in the air, just like he's so thin and he moves so much.

25:59If you are someone like Isaiah Hartenstein kind of pulling him out of the way, is that enough of like a neon sign saying, hey, there is a weird contact going here for the refs to finally pay attention to it? in game two, it wasn't. It just didn't draw enough attention in the way that apparently he needed to.

26:15Bill Simmons:The thing that I've... I just... I love watching Wemby. I really enjoy it. That sounds like Chris Collinsworth. I love... I love Wemby. I love Dylan Harper. I love Wemby. I really enjoy watching him. And one of the things I love, other than how competitive he is and being an alien, landing from UFO, all that stuff, I love that he doesn't bitch for calls. He really doesn't. And he takes a lot of punishment. And I just think he's used to it. I think this is the way people have defended him since he was 14. And I think he's probably done a mental study. Because I think he puts a lot of thought into everything.

26:53Bill Simmons:Probably as much as any young star we've ever had. And I think he's realized it's not worth it for me to be bitching all the time. I need to be bigger than this. I need to be the most physical, imposing guy in the game, in the league. and if I'm just constantly bitching and yapping and complaining, that gets compromised. So he took it. But Mitch Johnson did not seem like he was enjoying it. It seemed like he was getting madder and madder and madder. My guess is it won't be the case in Game 3. Well, and they'll find ways to work around it, right? One of the things you can do is, because of Wemby's skill set, you can move him anywhere on the floor.

27:26You could run him through actions like a guard if you want to and make Isaiah Harden shine and have to defend him that way, which is something he's not comfortable doing. I think the other part about the not complaining about fouls too is Wimby, for as much as he gets hit and held and pushed, isn't one of these guys who is falling over all the time, even on his own shots, like in Joel Embiid style. I think it's become a really cool part of his game, not just because some of that's just going to turn people off, but you see some of the tip dunks that he gets now off of his own misses. And you're only there to do that because you're not falling, you're not leaning, you're not trying to bait out the contact.

28:00He's moving downhill so much all the time now that he's able to clean up and get just crazy plays with a kind of geometry that we're not really used to seeing from anybody else.

28:10Bill Simmons:Yeah, Haas and I talked about it two days ago, just like how important that game one was for him, which we all had the same conversations. I thought SGA was great last night. I really thought he had a command of the flow of the game and when he should step in. And I just thought that's why he won two straight MVPs because the game's like yesterday. Wemby the experience of watching Wemby I don't remember feeling this way as a basketball fan since like those early 2013, 14, 15 Curry range where it was just like I can't get enough of this because I've never seen it before and with the Wemby like yesterday and it feels like every game there's something different yesterday it was just he just had these crazy offensive rebound putbacks from weird angles he must have like five of them where you're like, I don't understand how he got that.

29:00Bill Simmons:You almost wanted them to stop the game and replay it and tipping things from far away and being under the basket and reaching his octopus arm around. He probably didn't even really have that good of a game for him, but it felt like he was consistently impactful and all over the place. The Fox thing and then losing Harper. I feel bad for poor Castle with the 20 turnovers in two games, which I sincerely hope nobody hangs on him. He's not a true point guard. He's going against the scariest collection of defensive guards we've probably had this century. And, you know, he's been sloppy. There's a little bit of a Westbrook side with him.

29:41Bill Simmons:Early Westbrook. Yeah. The OKC from 08 to 2014. A little out of control. Awesome one play. Definitely a few plays were like, oh, no, why'd you do that? A tendency to be involved in the biggest play or one of the biggest plays of the game, and it might be a good thing. It might be a bad thing. And like Westbrook is one of the 15 to 20 best players in the league. Yeah. But it's just young and figuring it out in the fly. And Fox was just so helpful for him for just being the adult in the room. I think it's just so much to ask for Castle to just kind of navigate that Thunder defense. Jesus. It's tough.

30:18But in the same way that with, you know, a younger Russell Westbrook and especially a prime Russell Westbrook, like what Harper gives you in terms of the fearlessness of his play, I will just take every day of the week. Right. And you take that and you try to harness it and try to rein it in like, okay, don't do these particular crazy things. Or in the case of this series, he's just like mishandling the ball sometimes. Like he's trying to go so quickly and so aggressively through all of those Oklahoma City defenders that he's just kind of like losing it.

30:45Bill Simmons:Yeah. I think that's going to be the reality if both Harper and Fox can't play. Like they just don't have alternatives. Like you can throw Jordan McLaughlin out there, but it's not really going to change a lot. You need the two ball handler approach, even just to get Wemby in good advantageous positions. And so it's like, it's not an accident that the fewer ball handlers were on the floor. Now it's hard to even get Wemby the ball. It's hard to get those like post-entry passes to him. Everything just gets so much more complicated. But I trust that Castle will reign the turnovers in, certainly over time, but even over the course of this series, like it just can't be this terrible all the time in terms of the volume.

31:19Bill Simmons:It's basically two a quarter. I remember in the, I think it was the 2012 finals, I wrote a piece about Westbrook, about the concept of a 90-10 guy where the 90 % is awesome. And that 10%, everybody's got the 10 % that they're not really good at. They have some flaw. And with Westbrook, the 10 % was so glaring. You always thought about it. And Castle as a point guard, you just are kind of aware of it. It's like, all right, his flaw is he's a little sloppy. Yeah. And now he has the ball all the time. I'm going to be thinking about this more that he's a little sloppy because he's 21 and he's going against Lou Dort and Caruso.

31:55Bill Simmons:and who's the other guy they have? That's Terry. Cason Wallace. Cason Wallace. I forgot about him. First team, all defense, Cason Wallace. I voted for a first team who just stands at midcourt waiting to pick your pocket. Brutal. And has done that to Castle at least once a game. Well, so if Stephon Castle has a little bit of young Westbrook, is Dylan Harper like the most supercharged Eric Maynor we've ever seen? Here's the game managing responsible guy behind him. Yeah, he's alien Eric Maynor. I was so bummed when he got hurt. I know. Because that was another great thing about this series. You're watching Harper in real time.

32:31Bill Simmons:I talked about this two days ago. Just like, this is the worst he's ever going to be. And he's doing this. I was thinking about, I really value when a young point guard can rise to this. Because even you think like, some of the best point guards we've had, Tony Parker in the 2003 playoffs. Yeah. By the end of that playoffs, he was so shaky that they were like, should they trade him for kid? Remember? It was like a whole thing. Oh, absolutely. Kids are free agent. Do they do a sign and trade? Would this be an upgrade to get Jason? Because Parker was a young point guard and they didn't know if they could rely on him.

33:03Bill Simmons:Rondo was like that for the 08 Celtics. It was like he was good one game, not good the next game. And for Harper to be as consistent and also impactful on both ends. Yeah. Pretty dumbfounding. It sounds like he's going to play tomorrow is the word that I was hearing. I hope so. I mean, even if it's in a somewhat limited state, like they could really just use everything that he brings to the table. But when you think about those three core guys, Castle is having the most normal young player in the playoffs experience because of those walls he's running into. Harper, we really haven't seen the limits on it yet.

33:35He's still so smooth. There was a play where before he left this game in game two, he's like driving one-on-one through Lou Dort. Just like one diagonal step at a time and Lou Dort is just constantly backpedaling. And Dylan Harper, who again is 20 years old, just body bumps Lou Dort, a living fire hydrant, out of the way for a basically uncontested layup. It's like, nothing about that is normal. Nothing about Wemby's arc and his first playoff foray is normal. Stephon Castle is looking mortal by comparison, but it's still awesome. And so if you just have to feel, we've said it so many times, but the fact that the future of the franchise is anchored around those three guys in particular, it's just about as safe a bet as you could possibly make and as encouraging a sign in this first run as you could possibly get.

34:18Bill Simmons:I think they should win the series and I still think they're going to win this series. but we'll see with Harper. If Harper's compromised, then that's going to change the equation. Fox, the high ankle sprain. I never know what to believe with these anymore. Sometimes high ankle sprain, it's just like you're done for four weeks and then other times it's like he can play. It would seem as a point guard, that would be not a great position to have a high ankle sprain. Especially against the Thunder, again. Like there's defenses you don't want to go against with any limitation and you might have to, like if you're Harper or Fox, but it's not ideal.

34:50Bill Simmons:They're going to be home for game three. my guess is Fox is going to be a game time decision in play. I don't know this for a fact, but it's a home game. They're probably hoping they could split the first two in OKC and come back and then actually unleash Fox. And I don't know. I just feel like if the J-Dub situation, the other side, which he really looked good in game one. And I tweeted this, that I thought game one, you know, there were casualties from playing 58 minutes at the pace that everybody played at. You knew, you knew something bad was going to happen in game two. We had two injuries, right?

35:28Bill Simmons:I think Mitchell might've gotten. Yeah. That looked a little shaky too. Yeah. Something. Um, but J Dub now seems out. I guess he's going to be out for a while. You could feel it with some of the lineups. They basically have to go, they can do the two bigs with some guards. Maybe Aaron Wiggins plays a little more. Maybe, I don't know. What do you do? How do you replace the minutes? Well, this is where, if the officiating changes around Isaiah Hartenstein and J-Dub isn't available to play, you're starting to see that cascading effect become a real problem. Because then literally who guards Wimby?

35:59Like who are you throwing at him? We saw a little more of Chet on Wimby in game two. I thought he did okay, but he's not your first choice. If J-Dub can't play and Isaiah Hartenstein gets in, let's say foul trouble because of all the holding and grabbing and pushing he's been doing, we're either going to get like 28 J-Will minutes or like 40 Alex Caruso minutes. One of those two guys is going to have to stretch really far in that matchup. And I don't know that either of them is fully ready for it. They both have things they can bring and try to make Wemby's life hard in particular and also can contribute on offense.

36:31But all of the matchups get very strange very quickly if J-Dub isn't out there. He really is the critical piece that makes a lot of this make sense for OKC.

36:39Bill Simmons:I actually like J-Will in this series. He's really good. Yeah, I like his top of the... It's a little Luke Garza-ish. That little top of the key three. He's getting some Garza flashbacks. Okay. I'm just trying to... J. Will cannot be experienced. He reminds me of a young Garza. Everything cannot be through the lens of Luca Garza. That can't be what we're doing. It's a little Garza-ish. No, but one of the things I like about him is he'll mix it up. Yeah. He got in a fight with Champagny's brother in the Washington game during the weekend. Sure. I don't know if the other Champagny's holding it against him, but he'll mix it up.

37:12Is Justin showing up in the same way that the Thompson twins were showing up for each other?

37:16Bill Simmons:In the Morrises? Yeah. I mean, you got to. It's very possible. You got to come to your brother's playoff game. I would think it's a requirement. I thought for sure a game two was going to have some sort of altercation. And I had like a Mad Libs of, I had Wemby, Castle, Dort, and Jalen Williams. Some combination of the four of them. And maybe even some Kelly Olenek if he had gotten some minutes. But I still feel like this series hasn't gotten chippy enough. physical, but it hasn't been... We haven't gotten aggro yet. I think it can be Friday night. No, yeah. Friday night, little Spurs crowd having some spirits before the game.

37:54Yeah.

37:55Bill Simmons:A frisky crowd, mad about the officiating game, too. I think there's going to be a vibe in that game. As they should be, and as there should be. I'm looking at the FanDuel odds now, and I'm seeing minus 500 for a Bismack-Biombo forearm shiver to some Thunder player. Would you take that one, or what do you think the alternative is? I would love to see Bismack come in for two seconds. Olenek has, there's, I think you can find like a two-minute video of him doing stuff in different playoff games. Most famously, when he accidentally knocked Kevin Love's shoulder out of his socket. Yeah. That was a tough one.

38:27Again, a lot of borderline physicality going on in the playoffs. I don't know how. The lines of what is an accident can really be blurred pretty clearly.

38:35Bill Simmons:What do you think is going to happen in this series? It is so injury-dependent. I think if J-Dub is not able to play, God, it just, it really depends on how many ball handlers the Spurs have too. I am inclined to say if J-Dub doesn't play, the Spurs have the upper hand in it. That they've now taken a little bit of a tilt in their favor. And I say that just because J-Dub is so important. And because we saw Shea like read everything so perfectly, both in terms of spraying out to other players, but also picking his spots on offense. That just gets so much harder when the Spurs have a chance to game plan for the reality that J-Dub isn't out there.

39:11And so you're going to have to rely a lot more on Alex Caruso being a real offensive player and a scoring threat all the time, which certainly was the case in game one, but isn't all the time.

39:20Bill Simmons:By the way, it hasn't been consistently reliable throughout the course of his career. Even the playoffs last year, he's a little Josh Hardish hit or miss. There's games when he just, they're not going in. Makes plays happen, but game one was literally like one of the best role player performances I've ever seen in my life. So that cannot be the expectation for who he's going to be. also AJ Mitchell's kind of figuring out his way into the series if as we alluded to he's even healthy enough to go so the the next guys up for OKC after Shea without J-Dub I think are really difficult and that's in part because this is not a Chet offensive series this is not a matchup he can be a dominant scorer in by basically any way so he might have a game where he has 18 but it doesn't feel like 18 because he's like he's not forcing the issue he's not pushing he's not attacking.

40:05It's just kind of like circumstantial baskets for him, I think.

40:08Bill Simmons:The series odds shifted. They were dead even a day ago. Now it's OKC minus 162. So I don't know if that means there's inside info. J. Will comes back. Awesome series, though. I mean, yesterday, other than how well SGA played, it wasn't like the prettiest basketball game, but it was dramatic and riveting. And I thought, if you're San Antonio, I didn't feel like I played well. And I lost Harper midway through the game. and I was still hanging around, hanging around. Yeah. Down two with like, what, three, four minutes left? And I really had to make OKC make some plays and I thought SGA, you know, really did some good stuff.

40:46Bill Simmons:And more importantly, OKC has really now settled into the role as America's villain. I think they've embraced it. Yeah. I think their fans, it's us against them for the fans. This happened to the Patriots with me. You have to buy in officially and once you officially buy in, it's great. You're just like, Everyone's against us. Your middle fingers are out at all times. You're constantly taking everything personally. It's a great place to be. They should savor this and enjoy it. So if the Thunder are, to borrow your framing, a little Patriots-ish, does that endear them to you at all? Does their villainy make them a more appealing team to you?

41:23I just don't like the flopping.

41:26Bill Simmons:I just am not a fan. I don't like it. I don't like when guys on other teams do it. I almost feel like the Thunder are the best at it. There's theories that they practice it. Every game, there's 10 videos afterwards of different things that come out of it. But part of the thing for me is I don't necessarily think they have to play that way. They're so talented. So I don't really fully understand it, why they bought into that style. It obviously works for them, but I just don't like it. I mean, there's the two conversations of like, how good are they? And clearly they're amazing. third championship team.

42:02They play to that standard literally every night. And then there's the how much do you enjoy watching them? And that really comes down to how much appetite you have for ignoring some of that stuff. I think if you just pile up the 15 % of most annoying behavior of basically any team, every team's got some stuff going on that really gets under your skin, whether it's complaining to the officials, whether it's the shot selection, whether it is the flopping. It's just a matter of taste. And for me, I'm willing to like overlook a lot of it because I really do like watching all the other stuff that the Thunder do at just like an A, A plus level.

42:38So that part is a payoff for me. But you can't just like write off somebody's experience if they say, oh, this is a bad watch. This is annoying to watch. This is not what I like to spend time doing. You know, when I'm clocking out for my day and now I got to like grind through Thunder tape because it feels like they're at the free throw line all the time. I get why that would be a chore, but they're also fucking good.

42:59Bill Simmons:it's not quite as bad as Luca complaining after every single call. Like to me, that's a 10 out of 10. I just hate that. Probably the most, not everything could be a foul on you. No, but fortunately we didn't have to worry about him for that long. Uh, some mailbag questions. Okay. This is from Kevin. I'm writing this the day after Wemby's 41 and 24 against OKC. If it came out that Wemby actually was an alien, that he was legitimately not human at all. and we knew where to find more Wembeys like him out there, would that affect your interest level in the NBA? I think it would for me if we had non-humans.

43:36Bill Simmons:But my point with that question is somebody was convinced that Wembe might be an alien and crafted that and sent it in. That part is believable to me. The part that sent me over the top was that, oh, we can ascertain where he came from and find, you know, like go to the Avatar planet and pull more Wembees down here to play, would it affect our interest in the league? I mean, I think if there's a literal alien involved, how does that not affect your interest in the league? How does that not make it more interesting whatever is happening? It would lead to amazing halftime shows and morning shows and think pieces.

44:13Bill Simmons:Have humans lost control of the NBA? That's coming up next. I mean, it's hard to be America first when you can't even be Earth first, you know? Right. The talking heads would have a field day. Mike from St. Louis asks, is the Spurs backcourt of Castle and Harper the most exciting young backcourt since the Splash Brothers? What other young guard tandems got you hot and bothered like these guys? They're already the second and third best players in their team and they're 20 and 21 and then the Western Finals. Yeah. Really good question. Splash Brothers is a great example. That started to happen 2013 range.

44:46Bill Simmons:Curry was a little older though. He was in his mid-20s at that point. He'd been in college for three years. I was trying to think. I thought more people would come to mind and it was really tough to think of two young guards in the same backcourt that were this fun to watch. The closest I could come was the Derrick Rose Ben Gordon backcourt that the Bulls had for a split second in 2009. Remember that? Sure. When Rose was a rookie, Gordon had that great playoff series against Boston and felt like he was the next Andrew Tony. And it was like, wow, what a backcourt. 10 more years and then Gordon left like the next year and went to Detroit and it was gone.

45:22Bill Simmons:But it's pretty rare to have two young guards like this. Usually it's two guards who can't play together, like a Jaden Ivey and a Cade and things like that. Or a Steph and a Monte Ellis. It's like you got to pick one at a certain point. The other guy is jettisoned into the next version of your team. I mean, even if you expand it into veteran groups, this is so unique because these guys are so good and so young. But it's not as if there are just great guard-guard combinations of any age that are this interesting. For me personally, Stephon Castle and Dylan Harper are among my maybe top 10 to 15 most watchable players in the sport, period.

45:56Bill Simmons:I agree. And so I am dialed in on every Spurs game I can get my hands on. Especially a run like this has been so fun to watch when they're out there together or apart. I think it's really hard to compete with that. The only other young tandem I can think of in the league right now is, I mean, we do love Lamello and Khan together. That's a fun pairing for sure. But it's nowhere near. I feel like Conzo forward too, don't you? I mean, it's like him, Brandon Miller. It's all kind of a little fluid out there. But when you're talking guards, like Chris Paul and Booker had that nice little Phoenix run.

46:29Bill Simmons:That was really fun. We had, if you go back to the 70s and 80s, you know, we had the best one was the Dennis Johnson, Gus Williams one that made the finals in two straight years. Those guys are both young. They're both in their mid-20s. So we've had something like that. Or young Parker and Ginobili might be a good comp if you want to reach back a little bit. Both those guys were... That's a great one. They were much wilder than these two. It was like two Steph Castles out there a lot of the time, but that can be fun too. Nash and Finley was fun for a little bit there. Of course. Yeah, there's been some good ones.

46:59Bill Simmons:This is from Jeffrey. He listened to my Borat rewatchables and then the breakdown of game one of OKC. And Borat in that movie talks about having a romance explosion. And he wants to know what the current romantic explosion team is the guys you would construct around your personal enjoyment what would be the best you just mentioned two of your favorite players yep so if you put a team that would actually make sense together of five guys that would be your romance explosion team what would it be oh my god i can start as you think of it please i have joker wendy and steph as three of the five and then i'm just going to work around them so those are my three five my three favorite players to watch anyway.

47:42Bill Simmons:Yep. And I was thinking, healthy Hal Burton. I assume we're having him healthy next year. And I get Steph and Hal Burton, who can both play with or without the ball, and they can both cut. Joker, Wemby. Who's my fifth in this scenario? Who's a shooter that's fun to watch and play with? I almost just wanted to put Aaron Gordon in there because they put him in the dunker spot. I do love that. Some corner threes, and then he could just set picks and do stuff. That was probably, that was probably I have four. I couldn't get there with the fifth. Are you trying to win or are you just trying to have a romantic explosion?

48:19Bill Simmons:Just like I love watching all these guys. I can't believe they're all playing together. I'm having a great time. Yes. I think the like collision of all that talent is kind of hard to write. Like in particular the Steph Jokic Wemby part. I love watching Jokic. I love watching him dissect the game. but like Steph and Wembe are the important elements of that for me personally. And so like, I would start with those two. I want like really kinetic players between them. Like I want, I want Jalen Johnson types, like super fluid can do a little bit of everything, but like aren't being overtaxed in the way that the Hawks overtaxed him over the course of this year.

48:56But I feel like we need some defense. Do we not? Like I like watching. That's why I brought Aaron Gordon. Aaron Gordon's a great one. I think I almost might put Giannis in this group. Like I really like watching. Giannis, he's alive. Giannis is alive. He's back. He's healthy. He's theoretically out of Milwaukee. I don't know where we are in this scenario. But Giannis of like, I don't have to be the superstar. I'm playing with these other guys and I can just be like the best defensive player in the world and also an aggressive open court weapon at all times. That's a guy I want part of this formula.

49:27Bill Simmons:I'm going to give you my young guy romance explosion team. Okay. Maxie, Harper, Khan, Flagg, Klingen. Let's go. Do you need a towel off? I got Klingon protecting the rim. I got Khan spreading the floor. I got Maxi and Harper going up and down. And I got Flagg over here just doing Flagg things. I'd have a great time. I say this with all due respect. There has to be a better guy than Donovan Klingon for this team. There has to be a better option. I just needed somebody who could play defense. I mean, is Chet off the board? Are we so down on Chet we're just throwing him out? Yeah, Chet would be pretty good.

50:03Bill Simmons:You're right. Chet's probably in there. I don't know. I'm having a tough moment with Chet. I mean, here's the thing. If you want pure watchability, just like enjoyment, watching that guy work, give me Moussa Diabate out there. Like the fights per 36 are going through the roof. The crazy rebounding, the like, he will make one pass and take one shot every game that is objectively insane. But I'm along the ride for all of that. Tyler sent a Giannis email, actually. Tyler J. So he, There was a rumor today about the Heat offering Hero, Ware, the 13th pick, and two future firsts for Giannis. I forget who reported that.

50:43Bill Simmons:Gary Werfel? I think that... Jerry Werfel? Yeah. I think that's who it was. Tyler says, in past off-seasons, I'd scoff at that. But isn't that pretty decent value with the new lottery rules, especially with Giannis' injury history? Couldn't they last... Couldn't the Heat be in the 4-10 range? I feel like firsts are a little more valuable now. Yeah. Honestly, I felt the same way. I thought that was a lot. I thought, you know, Giannis, so you have two really good years left, three. I've done a million podcast segments about this, I feel like. But I don't know who else is desperate enough to trade for him.

51:19Bill Simmons:It feels like the Heat is the only team. The Wolves, maybe? Maybe, but I don't, I'm not getting the same kind of picks from the Wolves because they've already traded all their picks. It would have to be a third team involved for sure. McDaniels kind of has to be in that trade. And then that changes the calculus of why the T-Wolves would do that. So I don't know. I don't know if the Bucks are doing better than that. That's one of those where I'd kind of be like, do you want to call this in? Can I get a swap and we're good? Can I get a 2031 swap? Let's call it in. At some point, we need to do the full indexing of the complete range of offers that we have contemplated for Giannis over the course of this entire saga.

51:57Because at the beginning, the idea...

51:59Bill Simmons:Yeah, this was a reject. Oh, my God. Hero wear and a couple of firsts for Giannis Antetokounmpo was just like... Hawkins too, absolutely. But it would have been a non-starter. Like that's maybe in the pile, like we're putting it in the roundup of deals for the blog posts. But is anyone really taking that offer seriously? I think a couple of things have changed. For one, just literally everything happening in Milwaukee. But also the relative value of those firsts. Like in this new era with the change lottery odds. it does it shifts the calculus a little bit around teams like miami in particular as far as like how bad they could possibly be like they don't need to be fully bottoming out anymore for those picks to really be worth something i think janice wants to go to boston and i'm not sure boston wants janice and i think that's the push and pull right now what makes you think he wants to go to boston i just think he does aggregate it I don't care there's your social clip there's your aggregated blog post let's just run with it I think he wants to stay in the east and I think a certain guy in the Celtics has the same shooting coach as him and I think there's a lot of respect for the organization and I just think that would be a team he would be interested in but I also think Miami is another team he'd want to go to and by the way the league's more fun if he goes to Miami The league's more fun if Jalen and Jason stay together next year.

53:23Sure.

53:24Bill Simmons:Giannis goes to Miami with Bam, and they just kind of figure it out heat culture style and just salvage random guys from around the league, like the Davion Mitchell types, and all of a sudden, they're scary. Plus, with the Pacers coming back, the Hawks a little bit better, maybe the Pistons find a way to add a piece or two. The East could be a really deep conference next year, especially if Giannis goes somewhere that's actually kind of relevant. Don't forget House's Wizards. Of course. The resurgent Wizards. The Trey and AD high pick and roll with DeBansa spreading out on the side. I genuinely can't wait, but I don't know if that says more about them or me.

54:00Bill Simmons:Tony Candelora wants to know, when we look back in this era of the NBA, will the Thunder end up being to the Wemby Spurs what the bad boy Pistons were to the Jordan Bulls? The Bulls had to mentally and physically overcome that big hurdle. The Spurs might have to do the same. and the Pistons won back-to-back titles, could this be history repeating itself? I hadn't thought of that, but I thought that was pretty interesting. The problem is in this scenario, I guess you, so the Spurs would have to be the 1990 Bulls in this scenario. Yes. Which means they would, yeah, that's a pretty good one. I mean, it's - Pretty realistic.

54:37Bill Simmons:I just think the difference is the Pistons were kind of on their last legs after the second title. Whereas OKC is young and has a big future ahead of them. Well, narratively, I mean, you have the team that's kind of like testing him with physicality in the way that the Pistons did. Yeah. You have Wemby potentially having to overcome both that and them just competitively over the course of his first couple years in the league. Not only, though, does it feel different just because the Pistons were so much further along in age and experience than the Thunder are, but it would be like if that Pistons team were in place and they were a test for Jordan as they were, but they also just had like this other trove of young, talented picks that was also in the pipeline so that they could be a totally different but equally competitive version of the Pistons for the next like eight years.

55:19Like the sustainability of the Thunder is the unique element. And so every other contender falls apart within like a pretty concentrated window. I think we have a lot of reason to believe that the Thunder will not do that. They'll have to change. They're gonna have to like draw a line somewhere. They might have to trade J-Dub at some point, loathe as they are to do it. But they just have so much to work with in a way that even the Pistons of that time did not.

55:41Bill Simmons:Yeah, the funny thing about this conversation is, OKC might win nine of the next 10 titles and we'll be like, remember that? 2026 when we thought they were going to be a stopgap champ for the Spurs and now they're challenging Bill Russell. One more Giannis thing from Victor. He mentioned, basically asking is there's, if Giannis goes to Miami, the zombie heat, does he turn into a zombie Greek freak and does that get scary? No. If he goes to Miami, does he now become zombie Giannis and get the heat juice poured on him. And now it's 2021 again, basically. Is that how it works? They just pour heat juice on people?

56:19Bill Simmons:Yeah, they pour heat juice on people. I mean, the logic of the zombie says, like, as long as he gets bitten by somebody down there, as long as, like, a piece of a brain is eaten, then he becomes zombie honest. But what does zombie honest even mean? I don't know. It's like a Game of Thrones White Walker thing. Like, he'd come back stronger. I don't want any part of that. Yeah, yeah. Ethan wants to know, he's a big Knicks fan, if the Knicks won the championship with Brunson as their best player, considering all the discourse about how you can't win a championship with Brunson as a small guard as your best player, what are other sports equivalents of that?

56:53Bill Simmons:And he mentions, this is an NFL thing, not your total forte, but if Lamar Jackson won the championship, and there's this whole narrative about you can't win with a quarterback who runs and moves around as much as Lamar. I don't think the Knicks are going to win the championship this year, but I think if they did, it would be a reckoning for a lot of things we thought about the type of teams that could win a title. Definitely. Not building a team through the lottery. Pinning your hopes on a guy who after four seasons was averaging 11 points a game career. And I think he got, what, like 104 million for four years?

57:33Bill Simmons:And it was like a polarizing contract, remember? some people are like, whoa, that's Jalen Brunson. That's way too much. Where were you on that? I was more bullish on it. I think if you were what, I didn't think he'd be this, but I was like, how else are you going to get? I thought he was a proven playoff guy, at least. Absolutely. I think if you were watching that Dallas team, even before like the breakout against the Jazz that he had in that playoffs, all of the signs were there that he was a good, at least like plus starting level point guard. I thought maybe he would be the kind of guy who like makes some all-star teams, maybe has like a Kemba Walker kind of career.

58:04this has been a totally different thing.

58:06Bill Simmons:No, this makes no sense. It's up there with Kawhi is really the only other example of somebody's first four years not remotely looking like their next four years. Right? And it's just like a double leap. And he's so good at all the things that small guards are not supposed to be good at. Like for as much as people wring their hands around that idea, he gets in the lane and finishes and maneuvers around people in a way that we rarely see and maybe have never seen from anybody else. So I like this idea though of kind of like puncturing the common logic around what a champion can look like. And I think you're right about the construction of the Knicks.

58:39Not only did they not build through the draft, they didn't even really build their free agency either. Like all of these guys, they got by trade. And so, yeah.

58:46Bill Simmons:And even Randall was a free agent signing who then they turned into town somehow. And on the other side of this, I mean, we're just coming off of a year where a really young team Thunder, a really young Thunder team won the title. And if the Spurs managed to get out of the series, maybe even a younger Spurs team manages to win the title. So the conventional wisdom that like, you have to have experience, you have to have all these things gets thrown out the window. I don't know what the requirements would be anymore other than you need the superstars. And clearly in this era, you need a lot of depth just to survive this sort of run.

59:14Bill Simmons:Jordan Mullaney in LA wants to know if Wemby could pull a Jerry West in the Western Conference Finals where OKC wins the series, but Wemby wins Western Conference MVP. I hadn't thought of that. I am on the record. I always think it should come from a winning team. I don't know how you're the MVP of a team that lost, but this could be a really good test case if Wemby finishes 27, 17 in four blocks a game or whatever and his plus minus is crazy out of whack and they lose in seven by three points but I personally think it should be a winning team If he has three more games that look like game one I think he probably should win and that's even if Shea looks amazing So you would vote for it?

59:58I mean you have to see it in context you have to understand what's happening It's not just about the numbers, but how much you are shaping and impacting the game. I don't think anybody affected game one in the way that Victor Webinyama affected game one. And they could lose the series and that could still be the case, especially if they're down all these other guys and they don't have the ball handling and they just kind of fall apart. But he is the one constant. I don't see a reason you can't vote for that.

1:00:22Bill Simmons:I think the one thing that's definitely happened. He's the best player in the league, though. I don't think that's arguable anymore. The impact that he has on watching him go up a level in the playoffs, I just think this is kind of a wrap. As great as SGA is, it's just what we're watching from Wembe is we haven't seen it. John K. wanted to know, is Wembe the greatest threat we've seen to challenge Bill Russell's crown for most NBA championships, which is 11? I don't think it's happening. I don't think it's happening, A. and B, we've been here before with like, honestly, Shaq and Kobe felt like they were going to win every title in the 2000s, right?

1:00:59Bill Simmons:When Wade and LeBron and Bosh all got together. Not one, not two. Yeah, like 7-8 seemed realistic. So we've been in this spot a few times. I don't, I would say winning 11. The difference here is if he's 22 and his best teammates are 21 and 20, the kind of runway they're going to have, skipping all the steps of like, you know, Jordan didn't win a title till year eight. Yeah. You know, Wemby might win a title in year three for all we know. I feel like it's much more likely that we look up 10 years from now and Wemby and the Spurs won four and Shea and the Thunder won three. And it was just kind of like a back and forth between them for supremacy during this time.

1:01:36Bill Simmons:But Celtics, Lakers in the 80s. So Lakers won five, Celtics won three. It easily could have been five, three the other way. Last one from Brian from Philly. He said, this is one of those series everybody seems to agree whoever wins the West will win the title. He wants to know how many other times has that happened where the finals where the series before the finals felt like the finals. So I went through this. Warriors Rockets 2018. Yes. Sun Spurs 2007. The Robert Horry shoving Nash into the into the thing. It felt like whoever won that series was going to win the title. the caps are waiting um lakers kings 2002 i think was a good one the nets were the in the finals i year the either team was being them i mean couldn't all three of those like all of the championships in the laker three pete probably would qualify at some point with some series they played or another in the west yeah the problem is in 2001 they killed everybody so i don't even think we thought there was this they were just destroying that was the second best team in the century Lakers Blazers in 2000 was the other one.

1:02:45Bill Simmons:Yeah. That felt like, and Indiana I thought was a good team that year. I actually, and that series is a lot closer than I think it gets credit for now. If you go back and you watch game four and game six, it's a really, really good series. But I think those were, those were the four. Oh, and then one other, this is from BS weirdly, that wants to know why the Knicks keep rolling out all these ex-players that also have all this baggage from Nick's past, whether this is a good thing or a bad thing. Marbury, Starks, Ewing, et cetera, et cetera. Larry Johnson, Sprewell. It's like the ghost of Nick's past, not in a good way, but the MSG has come to accept them.

1:03:26Bill Simmons:Are you pro? Are you con? Where are you in this? I think we should honor our history. I think if, you know, That's how I feel as well. Like, what's the problem? Certainly with honoring those, like Patrick Ewing wants to come watch the game. You're going to turn your nose about Patrick Ewing. And I'm here for the Big Ten. I loved the ceremony they had earlier this season where they brought out like 60 guys, like Ron Baker, come celebrate with Knicks legends. I think once a Knick, always a Knick is a genuinely cool thing in a league that feels so transactional and so mercenary sometimes. Like, let's care about playing in a place and let's care about players and athletes that have relationships to a city and to a fan base.

1:04:00I don't think any of us need to be too cynical for that.

1:04:04Bill Simmons:Rob Mahoney, I completely agree. I kind of like, it's a little weird. It took a while to get used to it, but I like it because I think that's when you're a franchise that has generations, I think you should embrace the generations. And they've done a good job of kind of the celebrities of the people that have been coming for a while get priority for the seats. I saw Fat Joe is courtside today. Yeah. But then all the other Knicks guys from the 90s and 2000s, I don't know. I kind of like it. I do like it. I always liked when the Celtics, even in the 80s and 90s, when they would bring the guys from anytime a guy from the 60s or 70s was in the house, it was like, oh, oh my God.

1:04:42Bill Simmons:It's who I, Don Nelson. Wow. It is fun. If you're the Knicks, it's just every game. My one note, I don't know when Patrick Ewing entered his like newsboy cap era, but I do have mixed feelings about that. And maybe it just comes for all of us. Feels like he's, I don't know, tinkering with stuff. Yeah. Maybe new stylist. Him, John Travolta. Like it's a weird year for like berets and alternative hats. Travolta might've ended the beret. You think so? Yeah, I think he killed the beret a couple nights ago. So you're doing Euphoria. You're doing it with Joanna on the Prestige TV pod. I am, in fact. And we're doing - How many episodes left?

1:05:21Two episodes left. And we're actually going to be going live to YouTube for both of those episodes. So come hang out with us on Sunday nights.

1:05:27Bill Simmons:What's it, Ringer TV? It's the YouTube channel? Ringer TV. If you're not dialed in on the NBA that night, come watch Euphoria with us. My daughter was on my pod the other day and said the season seems to be revolving around Sydney Sweeney and her boobs. And she's hoping that they will gravitate away from that in the final two episodes was her review. I don't know how locked in you've been, Bill, but they literally destroyed a skyscraper. Oh, I've been watching it. Yeah, they did a Godzilla with her boobs. Just wanted to make sure, you know, when that happened, I sent you like an urgent Slack alert just to make sure it was on your desk.

1:05:57But I'm glad you're there.

1:05:59Bill Simmons:By the way, I haven't been to Slack in eight years. Maybe that's why. Yeah, I'm always available on text though for you, Rob Boney. I appreciate that. All right. Ringer NBA, Prestige TV. And I don't know when I'm going to see you again. There'll be some sort of live thing we'll have to do during this series because I think Spurs Thunder will go at least six. I certainly hope so. Hopefully there's enough live bodies by the end of this series. Yeah. All right. Thanks, Rob Boney. We're going to take a break. Come back with Mally Rubin and old friend Jason Concepcion next. The Bill Simmons Podcast is brought to you by FanDuel, our friends.

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1:07:10Bill Simmons:21 plus select states are 18 plus DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. Restrictions apply. See terms at sportsbook.fanduel.com. Game problem, call 1-800-GAMBLER. Call 888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org slash chat in Connecticut. This episode is brought to you by LinkedIn. For small businesses, guess what? Every hire matters. Luckily, there's LinkedIn Hiring Pro. Great name. It's designed to help you hire with confidence by surfacing only the right candidates. And guess what? Hiring Pro streamlines the entire process from drafting jobs to shortlisting candidates and conducting AI-powered screening interviews. And its conversational interface lets you describe what you need in plain language.

1:07:53Bill Simmons:Hire right the first time. Why not just do it the first time? Get started by posting your first job for free at linkedin.com slash Simmons. That's me. That's linkedin.com slash Simmons. terms, and conditions apply. Survivor 50, three-hour finale last night. Jason Concepcion is here. Mally Rubin is here. You might remember them once upon a time, back in the 1900s, when we had a little podcast called Binge Mode about a show called Game of Thrones, way, way back when. But here's what's uniting us right now. We all love Survivor. I had a big comeback this year. You guys have been in from the ground for, and it was an action-packed season finale.

1:08:33Bill Simmons:Where do you want to start, Jason? oh gosh I'll start with the winner because I thought Aubrey deserving winner absolutely deserving winner I've never necessarily gravitated to her game I thought the season where she came very close to winning but Michelle won, Kao Rong I could see she played really well down the stretch but I think that the criticism that her social game was not necessarily as on point that needed to be to win that game is is correct and ultimately the fact that she was able to get to to get to the position to win the last immunity necklace without jonathan joe or rizzo realizing that she's the biggest threat to win the game yeah is proof positive that she deserves to win and that she altered her game enough to win under very challenging circumstances.

1:09:37I mean, it seems like a$2 million mistake to choose to boot Tiffany over Aubrey, certainly for Joe. But shouts to Aubrey. Just a real great, great run. She played it in that kind of new era way where she stayed in the middle, stayed in the cut and then flowered late to kind of take the reins and and again still managed to stay off of people's radar just a wonderful performance i have to hand it to her mal yes yeah i i really agree and i think like season 50 first of all what a treat to be here with you both today to talk about this yes genuinely really memorable finale and season 50 was supposed to be a lot of things right not a lot of shows go for 50 seasons and 25 years and And one of the things that it was supposed to be, and I think when the initial cast list came out and there was this wide swath of players from the middle seasons missing, it was like, isn't this supposed to be a celebration of the eras?

1:10:38And it ended up being that in a lot of satisfying and surprising ways. And I think because of that core intention and the level of just adoration that every member of the cast brings to Survivor. Like, well, maybe we'll talk at some point about the celebrity twists across the season, which worked, which didn't. the true celebrity at the heart of Survivor, I've said this before, is Survivor. And so a player like Aubrey was always going to win this season, I think. A player who has the deep-seated trauma from injustices of Survivor's past and the ability to, in Aubrey's case, I thought beautifully and quite effectively articulate that at Final Tribal.

1:11:14A player like Sari, God-tier, was never going to get to the end. There are very few other members of the cast who would have actually taken her and follow through on that pledge. I think Ozzie might have. Probably nobody else would have, right? And a player like Joe was never going to get the votes. I actually think Rizzo is a great player, and I hope we get to talk about him, but he was also never going to get the votes because the other players have never watched him play. They don't understand what his survivor history is, but they do understand Aubrey's. And so I think Aubrey always was a leader in the clubhouse for most likely to win the season, and I think she really played well.

1:11:48The underdog story almost always hits at Final Tribal. And she was able to back it up with like actual savvy gameplay and a real narrative. So I think she's a worthy winner as well.

1:11:59Bill Simmons:Is it time for me to have a zag? Do it. Please zag. Please zag. This is why I stopped watching the show. Oh, come on. No, honestly, this is why I stopped like 20 seasons in. I just had it with how they systematically get rid of all the most interesting, most talented, best looking people during the course of the show. And what do we end up with? Oh, the middle. This is the new strategy. Oh, you mean the people that were smart enough to realize this person's a bigger threat? Let's get them out. This person's a bigger threat. This, I just, I thought she was so unimpressive. And the only reason she won was because 10 other people were way more captivating and way more of a threat.

1:12:42Bill Simmons:And she just kind of waited until the end. It was like watching a cockroach. Okay. Okay. Go. Yeah, please. You first. I want to agree and disagree. Jason, I know we feel the same way about this because one of the things that got me through COVID was us texting about Jesse during Jesse's season. This has been a real problem in the new era where I think genuinely it is difficult, if not impossible, for the best player in the season to win. And this is something that Jason and I have agonized over for years. Jesse was one of the players I was shocked not to see in the Season 50 cast. He was easily one of the most dominant players in recent memory.

1:13:16and the fact that he was not only not able to win, but not make it to the point where he could have tried to win, was, I think, and I know, Jason, you agree, an indictment of the structure of the game. So broadly, Bill, I think your critique of, like, can the best player win is valid inside of this phase of Survivor, a show that I love and, like, basically can't live without. That said, I don't think that's the case for Aubrey. I don't actually think Aubrey is a player who falls into that mold. I don't think that Aubrey is one of these -

1:13:43Bill Simmons:What mold does she fall into? Not charismatic. doesn't win challenges. Nobody really trusted her. And everybody kept her around because they all were stupid enough to think if she got to the end they were going to beat her. That was the only reason she won. I'll say this. I think it is very telling that over four appearances on the Survivor television program the first time she won an immunity is the first time she won the title. And you need that part of your game. She practiced it. She practiced it on her own. Anybody could do that. Good for her. Prep work. Samotion's been the final challenge for, I can't even remember how long it's been the final challenge.

1:14:24Everyone else is complacent and lazy. Yeah, exactly. Everybody knows. And yes, there was a vote, but it's like everybody should put their chip on it's going to be Samotion because everybody knows it's going to be Samotion. Everybody loves Samotion. Everybody could have done that. And I'll just say like, I love Sari. She dominates the game when she's in there. Yeah. Absolute mastermind. the likes of which we will never see that level of strategic and social play maybe again. If she could win a challenge one time, I mean, her threat, she could maybe win this game because that's, you need the complete package.

1:14:57And I want to say that I agree with you, Bill, that specifically in New Era, there have been champions. Yeah, for sure. Gabler, who came out and literally came out of nowhere. You're like, what? Erica to a degree where the editing has not caught up with the way the game is played today, where people stay in the middle, they stay below the surface, and then they burst out late. And I think that that is a production issue that the show needs to figure out in order to drive these narratives stronger. That said, I thought they did a good job with that this season. I really think they did. Oh, I think if anything, we all thought she was going to make the final three

1:15:40Bill Simmons:just from the edit. Yeah. When she was crying during the mac and cheese, I was like, all right, here we go. When Jonathan put his tongue in the rice, I'm like, he's not winning. That's not a champion's edit. Oh, man. I think, Bill, you invoked the word cockroach, and I would just posit that that is part of the point. Outlast is one of the core tenets of Survivor. And I think that there are, and this is actually, I think this is a healthy debate because part of what's fun about Survivor just like the players have different styles and approaches. Fans of the show have different things they're looking for in a champion and different things they gravitate toward in a player who they form an attachment to.

1:16:19I like all sorts of different survivor players. Like, I actually think Jonathan played an amazing season, you know, and obviously quite different from Aubrey. And one of the things that was super fun about the back half of the season was that brief moment where they were like, should we work together? Literally no one at home or on this beach would ever have anticipated that Aubrey and Jonathan would work together. And it was like riveting, right? Even for a moment. I think that the challenge beast is like a form of survivor dominance. I think that the social strategist, the tactician, the intuitor, right?

1:16:52All of these things are different. I think that there is something undeniably impressive though about just being able to move vote to vote and not because I don't think - By not being impressive? No, but that's the thing. We don't have to vote her out yet.

1:17:06Bill Simmons:There's no way she's going to win. I don't agree. She controlled the Aussie vote, which Joe basically confirmed at final. She had the better ability to make her case, which people forget about that part of it. She told a story at the end about why she should win. And it resonated. That's what my wife said at the end. She was like, because we thought Jonathan had the best quote-unquote on paper game. He couldn't communicate why he played the best game. And you could feel him dying in real time during the tribal council. And I think there was more there maybe in the edit. It didn't seem like people liked him.

1:17:48Bill Simmons:It was interesting to me that all the women, it seemed like, except for Stephanie, didn't vote for Jonathan. No, Stephanie and Chrissy both voted for Jonathan. They were the most vociferous in his defense. But how many women didn't vote for him, though? Well, it was eight to three, right? To the point where Tiffany had to say, is there a question in this monologue about Jonathan? Incredible moment. I mean, Stephanie, that was like, that was just weird. She also covered up for him too in one of the biggest episodes where all she had to do was throw him under the bus and she probably would have escaped and she didn't.

1:18:19Bill Simmons:And then she was like, well, I was trying to do right by him or whatever she said. I thought that was weird. I mean, that's like an adjustment Jonathan can make. Jonathan will play again. There's no question, right? And I thought one of the cool things, like when Jonathan played his first season, everybody talks about Ozzy as the Jungle Boy. boy, there has never been a more physically dominant single season performance than Jonathan's first season. It was astonishing. He was like Thor. It was crazy. The fact that in between his appearances, he said, I'm going to study at the knee of Boston Rob and really work to improve my game is impressive.

1:18:51So now he will, I have no doubt, make another adjustment. There's no question, Bill, that he's thinking the exact same thing. Like I sat there and the relationships I needed didn't pan out and I wasn't able to articulate my case too. And I actually think Jonathan did a pretty good job across the season of like saying what he needed to at tribal council or in a conversation with somebody when he was trying to move a vote. But certainly Aubrey did too. And I think that like Aubrey got by because she wasn't the biggest threat. There were for weeks now, she's been a target. Weeks. So I just don't think that's accurate.

1:19:21Was she always the biggest threat?

1:19:23Bill Simmons:It is accurate. Which they got rid of Sari because they thought she was the biggest threat. They got rid of Tiffany over Aubrey. Because they were afraid Tiffany would win the next immunity and that they wouldn't be able to control the outcome then. But this goes back to my celebration of the middle. And this is why this show is frustrated to me. It really is a microcosm of real life. This is what big companies are like. That's why it's great. This is what ESPN was like. Middle level managers who just figure out how to go under the radar don't really make noise either way and just kind of strategically survive until other people flame out.

1:20:00Bill Simmons:And that's the show. And this is why I stopped watching it, because it's frustrating to me. I will disagree with you in the sense that the middle era of this show, certainly up to Winners at War, was let the players play, and very aggressively so. Fewer advantages, huge alliances, big rivalries, big characters making big moves. It has turned into, and I think you're framing it a lot more aggressively aggressively than I would. That kind of game in the new era with too many advantages and people playing the middle. That said, I think... I'm going to critique it through your take through the lens of Jonathan.

1:20:45I think Jonathan made a tactically sound decision that I have a great chance to win the final immunities and my only real threat in that regard is Tiffany. and so I need her out so I can win that and then we get out Aubrey and then we move on. Not realizing that you might not get that chance and I think it was an ego move. I agree. And the issue is people who play as much as Jonathan has grown he still I think thinks of himself as like a challenge player, a physical player. He's always talking about like they only see me as the big guy. I mean you're talking about how much you're the big guy and he looked at the game through the lens of challenge beast.

1:21:28Tiffany's got to go. Not looking at the full picture. What are the conversations that are happening when you're not looking? Who has relationships on that jury right now? Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Who's having conversations that you're not aware of? Who's been involved in votes? Who hasn't had a vote cast against them? And you've got to look at that whole picture. And Jonathan's not there yet. Rizzo, who I love, is certainly not there yet, though I think we'll see him again. Oh my God, no question. Yeah.

1:21:56Bill Simmons:Yeah, but hold on. With the strategy piece, and this is why Jonathan lost. So Rizzo has an idol that they never flush out, ever. Two seasons in a row. Yeah. Terrible. Incredible. Yeah. Sari has, they know that she's never winning a challenge. She's just not. That's her fatal flaw. It's like Mitchell Robinson's free throw shooting. Like you can do hack a Sari, put her on the free throw line. She's going to go one of two. you have to keep her to the final five they got rid of her a week too early that was your week to either get rid of either Aubrey or Tiffany I forget who had the immunity at that time I think that was you keep Serena until the final he's like we got to get her out we got to get her out it's like just do it when there's five left or do it when there's four left what challenge is she winning there's no way she's already proven she's been last or if you're doing advanced metrics on it she's last or second to last in every challenge you're doing.

1:22:48Bill Simmons:So why do you have to get rid of her before the final four? I just don't understand that. They're in the island all day talking about nothing. This is like all I would talk about. You would just be planning out 40 scenarios. Like this never dawned on them? I've had this exact discussion with like, I think this is a popular take, you know, in the wake of when specifically Ceree was voted out. And I think that you're undeniably right that if you just look at the probabilities, like if you just look at the likelihood of certain outcomes you can't argue against the case you just made there's there's no there actually is no counter argument however the infinitesimal scenario however small the likelihood is that some challenge emerges and like frankly i think that production puts a challenge in front of them that is suited to sari because they so badly want Sari to win.

1:23:40You can't be the person who made the single biggest mistake in Survivor history, which was to allow Sari to get to the final. Because that's your legacy. Do a five left then.

1:23:48Bill Simmons:You get rid of Rizzo and his idol. I don't know. I just didn't agree with that. And I think also taking Sari out is a resume move for people because she's such a beloved player. So they all wanted to be able to say, I'm the one who finally got Sari the goat out of the game. And that's like too tantalizing of an elixir to pass on, I think. yeah I agree I think Jonathan had a chance and his chance was get Aubrey out when you had the chance that was it period and then lean on your strength as a challenge beast to say I can beat Tiffany why are you why are you running from the smoke why why are you running from this from challenging Tiffany head up in it in the final immunity challenge like take her on don't be afraid of that.

1:24:31That's what you're good at. I love Aubrey out.

1:24:35Bill Simmons:I love Tiffany. I was really rooting for her. I thought she had a great season. Um, I understand why you'd want to get her out, but I also don't feel like she had the same connections. And part of that, I mean, you guys have been watching the show the whole time I watched, I don't know, the first 20, first 25, I can't remember. And then I'd fade it off. The, the part that was different for me that maybe you guys is the history of these people on the shows was such a big part of how everybody perceived who they should vote for, who is in control. They were using the past. It was like, why Riz couldn't win because he hasn't tasted his blood enough or whatever stupid reason it was.

1:25:13Bill Simmons:And I was just watching like, who's playing the best game this year? And to me, like, I thought Jonathan and Tiffany were way better. And I actually thought Riz was better than Aubrey too. But then everybody was pulling in the past and you were so close against Michelle and I was like, I didn't see that season. I don't even know what that means. I'm just judging you by this year when you were just in the middle doing nothing for most of the season. I'll say that I think that there is there's active activity on the island, playing the game, making moves, etc. And then there's this passive ability to read the game.

1:25:47And I think that is what this middle play that Aubrey displayed shows. I think Tiffany had an ability to read the game. What she was missing was an ability to rally people to get Aubrey out. She saw it. Aubrey is the threat. We need to do this. But she couldn't build those connections to make it happen.

1:26:06Bill Simmons:Yeah, she was annoyed by people. That's how I would be in this game. I would just start to get annoyed by like six, seven people. I can't help it. Very much the same. But that reading the game, I think, is the thing that is both the most amorphous, hard to visualize as an audience member because you have that omniscient view. You can see everything. You know what's happening basically on the island from 30 ,000 feet above. And it's also what makes the game so frustrating, I think. You know, Jonathan didn't do press after the finale. And I think, and if you watched him, other podcasts have noted this, other people have watched the finale.

1:26:49He had like a big dip in his lip. I think just chewing, you know, trying to. He looks very unhappy still. I think he thought he won. And I think. Oh, wow. He must have thought he won. And he, and I think he thinks, I think he realizes he made a$2 million mistake. I think he's known for a full year plus, because that's how long ago this was filmed, that he didn't win. And he has spent every day stewing on and anticipating this moment of public regret and embarrassment. That's what I mean. I think he fought in the moment. Yes. He thought he won. Oh, yeah. It was like, yes. It's been a year.

1:27:23Bill Simmons:The prediction markets had Aubrey at like 36 % before the show even started, which I didn't know any of this until last night. And then heading into this final episode, she was the prohibitive favorite. That's not surprising to me just because even though they had not actually read the votes, much like before the game, you know, the Zoom alliance, all of the pregame. You're not supposed to pregame, but they do. They form alliances. They talk. Similarly, you know, everyone's like, who'd you vote for? Who'd you vote for? And NDAs are not enough people know that at some point word gets out and then it travels.

1:27:54I did not know that about the markets and Aubrey, but I think the edit, frankly, from episode one made it pretty clear that Aubrey was going to make it far because we had these kind of two phases of the edit. The first one, you know, like Christian was the player I was most—Tyson, host of Ringer, excellent Ringer podcast, The Pod of Spoken. If you were listening to this and have not checked out The Pod of Spoken, check it out. If you love Survivor, it's a fantastic podcast. Tyson is the best. He's my favorite Survivor player ever. One of my most recent new favorites is Christian from David versus Goliath, right?

1:28:24Christian is, I was, when the cast list for season 50 came out, I was just overjoyed that we were going to get to see Christian play again. Christian was so prominent in the early episodes that I was like, fuck, there's literally no chance Christian is winning this season because they wouldn't be devoting this much time to him in the early episodes. Ozzy as well.

1:28:42Bill Simmons:Yeah. Yeah. So Aubrey was in that interesting spot where there was, it was so conspicuous in episode one, centering this feud between Genevieve and Aubrey that did end up bearing fruit and being really meaningful in the inane Blood Moon episode, but had no consequence early on in terms of being featured as prominently as it was. So it's like they're telling us this is going to matter for a reason. And then we get to the middle of like the surging. I'm an underdog, right? Okay, I won't make the same mistakes I have in the past. people start targeting Aubrey. Then they start talking about how Aubrey has a good story.

1:29:16Oh, Tiff's making some good points. I think this has been, again, I love Survivor. There's like the mini version of it where you're watching a challenge and literally the scoring, the music of the scene changes right before the outcome of the challenge. You're like, I guess I know who's about to hit this shot and win. Why do they do this? They tip the edit. There was a period a few years ago where they worked more actively, I think, to obscure the outcome and how they edit the show because so many people were onto it. There were a couple candidates, I guess, in how this season was edited. I think Jonathan was one of them as well, where it was like the way he's being edited, you did really believe he was going to get pretty far.

1:29:52Tiffany is the opposite. Yeah.

1:29:54Bill Simmons:I didn't feel like they spent enough time on her. And meanwhile, she was cranking out challenges. The only finalist, the only final five contestant with a no confessional episode. Right. And so I think they really, they really overcorrected on Tiffany's edit in particular. Sorry, I think. Tiff is great she'll win at some point she will win so will Rizzo this episode is brought to you by Viore when it comes to clothes that score high in both comfort and style Viore is my MVP Sunday performance joggers oh yeah they have the perfect I could watch a game then go out to dinner vibe and the meta pant that's my number one I need to look like I tried option get 20 % off your first purchase at Viore.com slash Simmons and discover the versatility of Viore clothing Exclusions apply.

1:30:42Bill Simmons:Visit the website for full terms and conditions.

1:31:11Bill Simmons:language, no recruiter jargon needed. Nearly 60 % of hires find a candidate to interview within a week. With Hiring Pro, you spend less time searching and more time connecting with the right talent. Hire right the first time. Get started by posting your first job for free at linkedin.com slash Simmons. That's linkedin.com slash Simmons. Terms and conditions apply. Did you think there were too many gimmicks this season? No question. No question. not only too many gimmicks but too many game-breaking destructive gimmicks it's one thing to have like blood moon and it was like a name it didn't really matter but then you have like the jimmy fallon one turn which was basically outrageous put a gun in christian's hand and tell him he has to shoot himself like it's there was no chance he came back from that yeah and too many of the advantages were like that.

1:32:04The Billie Eilish boomerang, which it's notable to me how many longtime Survivor watchers and Survivor contestants turned Survivor content creators have continuously been like, oh, Rizzo should give the... No, he can't. It's the boomerang. He has to keep it. And that mechanic alone is just dumb. we want to see players make deals. We want to see players be active, not get locked in these boxes and too many of the gimmicks. They gamified it. They randomized the game too much. And two, I think they're just too prohibitively dangerous to the person who gets them. I could not possibly agree more. I think, again, the true celebrity in Survivor Season 50 is Survivor, so let's center the gameplay.

1:32:56Now, I think, like, the shock of the century to me is that the Mr. Beast thing, which I had been dreading given how prominently that I've been teased in the trailers was like kind of amazing actually. And Devin's at the center of just a, that, so it's, I think two things. One, when Jeff is talking about the Blood Moon and how iconic and historic it's going to be and that's why we're here to make historic moments. It's like that, there are not, that's not how a historic iconic survivor moment happens by you saying out loud it's about to happen. It happens organically and authentically because of the decisions that the players make.

1:33:28And the Blood Moon robbed robbed the players of the ability to make decisions based on their play to that point by artificially dividing them into groups that were too small. The Pot of Spoken crew talked about this a lot at the time, but do a 17-person tribal it, that would have actually been historic. Now, the Mr. Beast thing worked out because it allowed— Because it came up. It came up. It came up, right, Beast, and they got the two million. Great. But it allowed Devins to behave fearlessly and boldly, which is his game. It was an amplifier for how he already plays. And I think it revealed everybody else's collective cowardice because they let him do it, which was demented.

1:34:05How could nobody else stand up and say, I'm going to do this instead? The Jimmy Fallon thing I will take to my grave, both because of my affection for Christian, but also because, to your point, Jay, it deprived a player who we love to watch operate of the ability to operate at all. It violates a sacred survivor tenet, which is the one thing you will never have to do on the island is write down your own name. So right away, I'm out. But it's just once you go back and you have to read that out loud and say that and then do it, there's literally nothing you can do to save yourself at that point.

1:34:38And then what are all of the alliances and the gamesmanship for? Genevieve, who I think is a great player, found two idols and got voted out because the game didn't allow either of them to make it back to her in time because of that artificial division of the structure. So like, I think the moments that heightened gameplay and centered it and allowed the decisions that the players had made to that point and wanted to make in the future to be at the four, including, like, fire-making, right? Like, the blowing, Jeff revealing that, which I'm sure we'll talk about, was, like, astonishing. But the fact that two players who had lost fire before were facing off in fire, I was like, my jaw was on the floor.

1:35:16I'm like, I can't, this is actually poetic. This is, like, this is mythic. This is what Survivor is. Jimmy Fallon coming in, or, like, a 25-minute spear-fishing aside with a Survivor superfan, I'm like, I'm a Survivor super fan. I didn't get to go do that. Why do I need to watch this? You know, the moments that moved me the most this season were like Ozzy crying about his father. And I was like, I did not expect to feel this way about an Ozzy scene, but I'm like bowled over by this. I'm really moved. How many times do you cry, Mel? I was genuinely affected by that Ozzy moment. And even something really like, you know, like Joe and Devin's having just this very authentic connection about that would really touch me.

1:35:56The moment that got me the most this season, not even close, won't surprise Jason who knows about my Colby obsession to hear this, but like Colby being voted out, it got me because it's like, not just because he's just insanely hot and always has been. And I'm one of my formative crushes and I was sad not to get to see him, but like, that's a moment that only season 50 of Survivor can give us, which is like this person you watch grow up on your TV, sit there. The guy used to be a hotshot, challenge beast, dominant, beloved, like poster boy heartthrob. Then he comes back. He can't get it done. He doesn't handle it well.

1:36:31You know, then the third time. And like to be there after 24 years in his 50s as like the fatherly figure and sit there with that like humility and humbleness and grace. I was just like, this is actually kind of amazing to me to have watched this person move through the phases of his life and to see the way it impacted the other players around him who were in tears having to send him home knowing he would probably not be back. I was like, this is why I'm watching a season 50. This is amazing.

1:36:56Bill Simmons:Also one of the top 15 people that were more charismatic this season than the winner, Aubrey. I mean, I will say that I don't disagree. She's not oozing charisma by any sense. What were your favorite Aubrey moments during the season? Well, I love the Genevieve feud, but that's one of those editing decisions where, you know, from my perspective, it was they gazed at each other across the beach. and then hated each other. And no explanation. I want to know what happened. And they should have made more hay out of whatever that was because it seemed so deeply felt that both of them were just simply not going to work with each other after whatever happened on that beach.

1:37:44But that was great. That's the stuff I love, is these petty rivalries, alliances based on... Based on nothing. Just like vibing with somebody We had a good walk to go take a poop together Yeah

1:37:59Bill Simmons:Can I give you my Mr. Beast impression Sure On the show Please Bigger teeth, whiter Did somebody tell him like Hey, you're probably going to be nervous out there Just smile like you're a serial killer For the entire time you're out there That's one note My most disappointing moment was when Christian turned on Mike White who had befriended him and even brought him to the White Lotus thing. And I do feel like, I feel like Christian worked a long con on Mike White who loves this show and should know better. Oh, come on. Oh, I'm telling you. I do. First of all. I think Mike White was like, this is my guy right here.

1:38:39Bill Simmons:Meanwhile, Christian did the full fucking Scarface double cross on him. I'm telling you. Is anybody working a longer con than Michael White? That's the thing. He got out con. multiple survivor players into the White Lotus universe. Yeah, and he got Alcon. Co-hosted the official podcast with Mr. Probst and who dangles these appearances in White Lotus as boons for being in his orbit. I think Mike was trying to do the exact thing to Christian that Christian did to him. Only Christian got there first. And honestly, Christian had to. We had to do it at that moment. Mike White, another more charismatic contestant than Aubrey.

1:39:23Bill Simmons:Very true. Put that into the list. That was an early, so Christian and Mike played together, right? They were on, and that is my favorite season of Survivor. David, if anyone's like, what old season should I check out? I mean, there are a ton, Heroes vs. Villains, Blood vs. Water. I mean, there are a million. Micronesia, yeah, yeah. Yeah, all the Tony seasons, Winners of War, they're fantastic. But like, David vs. Goliath is a fantastic standalone season, and a lot of those characters have been a part of survivor lore moving forward. Christian was, on the one hand, right to identify that, like, people were looking at them.

1:39:55And Mike was too willing to say, like, my David versus Goliath guys are my guys. Like, let's do it. Christian, realizing that was a threat, was right. I think that there was literally no chance that anyone who was playing this season was going to give bazillionaire Mike White $2 million in prize money. So, like, I don't think he needed to be eliminated in that sense. Yeah, keep him the final five. Yeah, he is a very compelling and artful director of decisions. And I thought the way that he like with the laser beam to the heart. Yeah. Picked at that scab at that Gabby wound for that was a mistake.

1:40:31Holy shit. Like that was riveting to watch. The context there is Christian and Gabby had a what seemed like a rock side alliance. Yes. Bordering on perhaps a mutual crush. Like it was, it was, it was powerful television. And at a crucial moment, she turns on him. He survives it, but ultimately it does wound his, his campaign going forward. And it was a big, big moment. And for Mike to put his finger on that, I thought was, I thought it was too soon for that kind of move. And I will add this. I think Mike's other mistake, if you could call that, he came in too shredded.

1:41:17Bill Simmons:keep your shirt on yeah keep your shirt on don't be like I've been working with the guy who gets the Hemsworths ready for the cinematic universe to prepare for this it's telling too much yeah he had to go we didn't talk about Joe yet Joe with a goose egg in the final three very rough he has not done well in the finals twice which is really tough And Sari just drive-by shot him with the Joe-tation, whatever she said. That was just an unbelievable throat slit. That was so, so, so good. Joe probably should have been a red flag for him that everybody was so delighted to never talk about him, never vote him out, and just keep him going.

1:42:04Bill Simmons:Happy to take him to the end. Yeah. Everybody saw him the same way. I think Joe showed good growth towards the end of this season, recognizing that his honor and integrity kind of gameplay is one, very old fashioned and two, just is not a way to to to win the game, to go far in the game, to be a threat to win the game on any level. That said, he brought it up in the final tribal council talking about how he added some layers to his gameplay. And that's the part that didn't resonate with me at all. I did not feel that Joe meaningfully—here's the thing. Joe, as a Survivor player, thinks he's playing the honesty and integrity game.

1:42:49And to a certain extent, he is in relation to everybody else. He's also lying and playing Survivor early, but not recognizing it. And then later when he's saying, oh, I had to add these lies to his game. He, where? Yeah. You didn't. Yes.

1:43:03Bill Simmons:Yeah, I didn't remember. I didn't remember that either. My wife and I were like, what did Joe do a double cross that we forget? I think he was like trying to basically reposition something like saying to coach, coach one of, as always, one of the most bankable experiences in this, in this unpredictable world is that watching coach on Survivor will be the highlight of a lifetime. Another one more charismatic than Aubrey. I'll just keep listing him. He is such an incredible character. I just can't like get, I just, I never, I personally never tire of it. But saying to, to coach, I will never write your name down.

1:43:36And then we get the, the pairs elimination, which was like, again, an example of, I thought, a much better twist than some of the ones that were touted in the time, in the moment of being like a huge twist. It's like actually interesting to pair people. And then you have to vote out two people at once.

1:43:48Bill Simmons:I like that. Yeah, that was really good. Now, I think that Joe is, Joe is a little bit of a like, every person inside of them has two wolves, right? Like for me personally, because as Jason knows, watching Joe a couple of seasons ago with Eva was like one of the most emotional and moving and deeply, I think genuinely deeply affecting experiences in the history of Survivor. It was blockbuster television to the point that I am convinced production tinkered with the challenges to keep Joe in the game for two or three extra episodes when they realized he couldn't do a puzzle. Yeah, it's entirely possible.

1:44:26It was just beautiful to watch that, I thought, like sincerely. Yes, it was. That said, Joe going back to camp after like Devin's gives us one of the most authentically incredible moments in Survivor history. And Joe says to everybody, has the fucking gall to say to everybody, that was disgusting. Wasn't appropriate. I'm like, dude, what game do you think you're playing? This is Survivor. Now, I think people trying to play their version of Survivor is fine. And if you want to do the Honor Integrity Alliance, like it's not personally for me. I like watching people stab each other in the back and cut each other's throats and then try to justify why the person they did that to should give them a million dollars.

1:45:04Like, that's amazing. But if you want to try to do it differently, that's your prerogative. That's actually fine. Don't say you can't believe that other people are doing the thing that everybody is there to watch them do. It's the whole point of the show. Yeah, that's just bizarre.

1:45:19Bill Simmons:Why else do we have it? who is the one if we if we reset this season and just started over again who is the one that got voted out a little earlier Jason that you feel like man it just almost like a sports series where it's like oh man if they didn't hit that three in game one we probably could have won that one I think there are several but I'm going to go with Genevieve I think Genevieve is one of the most dynamic players we've seen in the new era in her previous season had this ability to scramble from the bottom against adverse situations, hold fast to toxic allies as meat shields in a way that showed a level of ability to read the game and read the middle game that I think is uncommon.

1:46:12And she's very smart, very tactical. And I think that's why Aubrey had to get her out

1:46:17Bill Simmons:immediately immediately they play the very charismatic one yeah i think genevee's a great pick for that i have i have two nominees one is very quick because it was it was injury so there's not much to talk about but kyle i think would have gone incredibly far incredibly far in the game and he's one of the more impressive winners in recent memory and i would actually be fascinated bill for you to go back and watch his season given your overall feeling about kind of like biding your time as a strategy because the way he did it i thought i was like you should be like in MI6. Like, it was just unbelievable.

1:46:48And I think you would really have respected his game and wanted to watch him play this season. But I think maybe the spirit of your question, the better answer is, since Jay took Genevieve, Charlie, because this was just a bizarre self-immolation that didn't need to happen. And I think it was, like, kind of interesting to watch given that it was very genuinely born out of his personal trauma from Maria. Charlie's a really good player. Like, he did incredibly well in his season. He had an alliance that took him very far, and his ally, as we know—even if you didn't see his season, you know from watching this season, his number one didn't vote for him, and he has just never gotten over it.

1:47:25Like, it's a sincere, sincere wound he carries. And he just completely misread the Rizzo thing and allowed that—this misread, this misperception that Rizzo was Maria and had done to his ally what Maria had done to him. to he imploded his own game because of like the wrong read on someone he hadn't watched play. And I think whether like you let your own personal trauma or baggage lead you to a certain decision is like very human. And that's interesting to watch. But I wish Charlie had just been like, all I know is what people are saying out loud. And why would Rizzo in any way tell us the truth about what happened?

1:48:06I shouldn't let this be the arbiter of the decisions that I make. It just was so strange the hold it had on him. And I wish we had gotten to watch him play a little longer because I think he's quite a capable player.

1:48:16Bill Simmons:Jason, I know it just happened, so you probably need more time to reflect. Sure. What do you think, Riz, what do you think this final three meant to the Albanian community? Well, I was saying when Rizzo was talking about how important this is, the Albanian community, that first of all, they have Dua Lipa, so they're good. I think the Albanian community at large is doing okay. You know, Action Bronson, Granit Xhaka, former Arsenal player. Like, we're doing okay. Reruns are taken on TNT. They're doing good. They're doing well. I think Rizzo, listen, Rizzo's got a lot of potential. I think we'll see him again.

1:48:57I think he maybe overrates his own game to a degree. He needed to control a vote. If you're never going to be able to win a challenge, you need to swing a vote somewhere down the line And he was just, I think, a little too passive and made the ultimately cut his allies off at the knees way too soon. He needed to skate through, I think, one more vote with Sari and Ozzy. I thought he needed to.

1:49:25Bill Simmons:Don't you think he needed to flip when there was like six left and do a new alliance with with Tiff and Sari? I mean, I think it would have been a move. Yeah. I mean, that's a move, too. Because he was he was drawn dead in the one he was in. I think he was always going to be the third guy in that group. Here's where I'll disagree. I think that there's two ways to do it. And both are very strong historically. Yeah. One way is you have one, only one number one ally. And you say, you and me, we're going to the end. And whatever happens there happens. Or you flip at some point. Both of those work really well.

1:50:02but you know I think there's so many examples of you need that one ally you just need the one and I thought that Rizzo had gone too far down the road with Seri to not hold on to her for at least one more till you get back together till you get back together and you get to do it stab her in the front

1:50:23Bill Simmons:that was one of the great things about her game everybody felt like they were her number one and meanwhile Seri was getting around in the tribe. I mean, that's part of her just magic is the ability to just win everybody to her cause and really truly steer and direct the outcome. She's like CR. It's like if CR was on Survivor. CR just floats into different groups. I think he'd do very well. He'd do great. He'd do great. Except for the pack. He'd need the nicotine. Could they be able to airdrop in the nicotine? That's an interesting question. I think CR would get double-crossed and it would be like one of the most devastating moments in Survivor history.

1:50:59Bill Simmons:People would just be... Too trusting? Yeah. People would just be out of... yeah, too trusting, too nice of a guy. Beloved by all, warm, open heart, and then just absolutely eviscerated when he least expects it. That's the whole point of the show. I really liked Rizzo, though. I enjoyed him. And I think he was actually, you know, I wonder, like, should you hold back during the early tribal councils? Because if you're just like, he's somebody who could have like a podcast, like he's just like on the more eloquent side of those things. So I think as he's like, just very like for two minutes, just laying out like some big picture angle on the show, they had to have been thinking like, I don't want to be in the final three with this guy.

1:51:39Bill Simmons:He's going to be able to explain his case the best. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Like he is able to not only succinctly and clearly say the thing that needs to be said, but he does it with, with, as he would say, some cinema, right? Like he makes it really compelling and dramatic. He draws the eye. Rizzo is one of my favorite recent players. And I think that my sense, Jay, I'm curious if you agree with this from 49. I think this is a pretty widely shared experience. It's very similar to like what Colby went through in real time on season 50, where the first couple episodes, you're like, what's going on with this guy?

1:52:11Like, this is really a lot. And then you just fall in love with him. And it's so fun to watch him play. And I think like, in general, I think a problem with the recent seasons of Survivor is that the players are way too self-aware. they're all super fans they're obsessed with the game they all think they're survivor scholars and so they're not only constantly like i'm the best i know exactly how to do this because i've crunched the tape for my entire life i i think the part of it that's fun is they're awed by the experience when you have a season like this where like you can watch rizzo pull coach aside and say to a player he idolizes and grew up watching we don't slay dragons at camp we do it at tribal Like, it was incredible.

1:52:55And I think watching the way that he navigated his interactions with these people he idolizes was genuinely impressive. But he transcends, I think, like a little bit of a flaw with the current game because most of the players who are obsessives are too—there was a season a few seasons ago, I can't remember which one it was, where like I think six of the players were podcasters or in the media. And it's like they're just too hyper aware of what their image is going to be and how they're going to play as TV characters in addition to as like survivor players. And I would love, obviously we're not getting that because the tease for 51, which I have to be honest, I could barely follow and did not understand.

1:53:31Like the open era explanation of like all the advantages and everything that's ever happened in the game is in the mix. I'm like, I'm not really totally like following how this is going to work. More twist, more adventure. We need the opposite. We need a clean slate. I completely agree. Yeah. It seems like, I mean, this is just a guess, you know, but it seemed like maybe they're going to try and do a one world type of situation. So, Bill, one world was there were no two camps. There were no two tribes. Everybody was just on the same beach. That is kind of interesting to me if they're going to do that.

1:54:00But I agree with Mal. Like, let the players play. Take out some of these randomizing elements that have been introduced lately. I think that there was—now, maybe Jeff has data that backs up that people actually love this stuff. And in which case, fine. That said, for me, as a person who's been watching a long time, there is like an ideal that that crested in Survivor, I would say, like around David's versus Elias, Millennials, Gen X, when it was like a minimum of advantages and idols. And you knew that when an idol left, it was coming back. That was very predictable. And it allowed players to just play.

1:54:36Yeah. And now I think you're looking over your shoulder. You're wondering if I pick up this advantage, how is it going to harm me? there's just too many things that take the players out of the experience in ways that I think

1:54:50Bill Simmons:this episode is brought to you by America's cookout classics Heinz, Kraft and Oscar Meyer this summer we're celebrating 250 years of America cookouts with all the classics Heinz, Kraft and Oscar Meyer I love hot dogs anytime it's a cookout you have to have multiple kinds of hot dogs I need a different kind of food. Some people like the burgers and the turkey burgers. Gotta have the right playlist in place. Gotta grill some vegetables, but for the most part, you really need the hot dogs. And I need multiple types of mustard too. Make sure to top the burger with only the best Heinz ketchup and Kraft singles.

1:55:29Bill Simmons:I'm a ketchup and burgers guy. Dress up your sides to impress all summer long with Kraft Real Mayo and Kraft dressing. No matter how you cook out, you'll find the same favorites on every table. Heinz, Kraft, and Oscar Mayer. shop at your local retailer. This episode is brought to you by Amazon. Life's full of little surprises like spilling coffee everywhere five minutes before a meeting or reaching for a diaper and realizing the bag is empty. Kind of like draft night. You think you know the plan, then everything changes. Look, life can be unpredictable, but everyday shopping does not have to be.

1:56:00Bill Simmons:With great savings on essentials, Amazon helps you cover the basics and the surprises. Because when life throws you a curveball, it's nice knowing there's a place you can count on Amazon. Save on essentials, save the everyday. And hurt the game. Did you, did you both miss having an actual reading special where we learned more stuff about bad blood between people and did people regret stuff? And because I know Jeff Probst is on the record as like, he didn't really like those things anymore. Yeah. I kind of enjoy them. I almost wish like they had done a one hour and just put it on Paramount or something.

1:56:36Bill Simmons:They could have put it in the three-hour window. I like seeing the bad blood and I like learning more about how people felt about the show. I thought it was weird they punted on that. I always like when Jeff asks if this person had been at the end instead, who would have voted for them? And they raised their hands. And the person who made... In this case, it didn't happen this way because Aubrey made the right decision to choose to take Joe, but plenty of players who have made a decision about who to choose to have next to them have made the wrong decision. And that person is one. And it's something they think about until the day they die, right?

1:57:04And then Jeff asked, would you have, and then it's like just a, it's an unbelievable thing to watch those hands go up in the air. Um, so I miss that specifically, but of course, if that had happened, Bill, if we had just gotten a true like reunion hour at the end, what we would not have gotten. Oh yes. Was moonlight, la la land all over again. One of the most bat shit. What the fuck just happened? Live TV moments in the history of pop culture. Like I'm I don't think we're overstating it to say that Jeff's spoiling fire making. Jeff bringing out Rizzo and saying. In the final four. At the final four.

1:57:41Bill Simmons:It was weird when Rizzo came out. It's like, this is unorthodox. Rizzo clearly had. He's still in the game. What happened? Rizzo was like, what am I doing out here? He tried to kind of like roll with it, you know, until Jeff was at the end was like, okay, go sit down. And then realized like, oh, you spoiled it. Yes. So Jeff's explanation, which I watched this morning on one of the morning shows, was that, and this part makes sense. He's not watching the shows that's happening because he's already seen it. He's probably been involved with the editing. Probably like, no, no, do you use camera too?

1:58:13Bill Simmons:I don't like that angle of me for that one. He's doing all that. So he's seen it and he's prepping and he's getting the live stuff ready. And it's hard to host a live show, as I've said many times. It's hard to host. So I empathize with him. he clearly either got bad information from a producer or got discombobulated. I would go with the bad information because you're doing a three hour show, you're live, you're going from here to there there's a possibility and I would say this as an older guy who had two brain farts already this year in the podcast there's a possibility he just brain farted and forgot that they hadn't shown the Rizzo thing yet and now retroactively is like oh, they told me.

1:58:56Bill Simmons:I don't know. What do you think? Is it brain fart or producer mistake, Jason? Having been around TV and live productions enough, that is a mistake that is structural. 15 people made that mistake. Yes. There is a director and a segment producer who it might be that Jeff was like, OK, now let's bring on Rizzo brain fart. But then like five to 10 other people need to just be like, OK, I guess we'll make Doesn't he have an earbud in his ear? Like, Jeff, Jeff, Jeff, don't spoil the fire. Don't spoil the fire. Nothing? Or somebody come running down the aisle and go like this. It should not have happened.

1:59:35And it happened because a whole load-bearing part of the production collapsed, not just Jeff. There's no way it's just his fault. Yes, I think. You know, they decorate camp and particularly tribal council on these sets with like a lot of specific touches. right? You know, there'll be shields or phoenixes. Sometimes there are skulls. And I would encourage everyone who's a part of this production to get a scan of their skull committed to the public record so that we can look at the future seasons of Survivor for every skull that is part of the set deck and make sure that the people who did this were not murdered by Jeff Probst.

2:00:13Because this is not something that should have happened. And we were texting in real time because, first of all, I don't think it's possible that it was like -

2:00:20Bill Simmons:Yeah, because we were all watching this in real time on the West Coast. Yes. I don't think it's possible that there's an explanation of like he was going to bring Rizzo out and just the mistake was simply saying, go sit down, you become the final member of the jury, which obviously was astonishing when he said that out loud because then it was undeniable what had happened. And then the hush that fell over the room, Jeff saying, wait, what just happened? My heart was like seizing watching him. The fact that Rizzo came out at all, once that happens, no matter what Jeff says from there, they have fucked it up because why is Rizzo out there?

2:00:51Yeah, exactly. So I think that it has to be just the sequencing and the fact that that happened at all before that segment had aired is just a colossal mistake. The thing that we were texting about was like, why didn't they? Because it's aired live on the East Coast. It's done. There's nothing you can do about it. So everyone will know. And that's like really a shame. However, we were texting like, why did they not edit this out of the West Coast airing?

2:01:15Bill Simmons:And Paramount the next day. Yeah. Just take it out of everything. And I was so baffled by that until I kept watching and saw that the answer was clear, which was that Jeff then went on to reference it five times from there. So you couldn't have edited it out because the rest of the show wouldn't have made sense. And I give Jeff huge credit for that. Because this was like, I mean, the fact that it's like what all the articles are about and it's like the lead of every conversation today is such a huge bummer. Oh, wait a second. next week. Did they intend to do this intentionally? Oh, yeah, yeah.

2:01:49Get the news cycle going. Get the news cycle going. But like, oh my God, I think there is something. This is the spin that I put on it if I'm Jeff. Survivor is a game about humanity and overcoming failure and mistakes. And so there is something so meta about it. In the season where Jeff put himself into a challenge and then bombed and had to say, boy, I really have more respect for what you guys are all doing out there, that Jeff basically didn't say the right thing in his version of Final Tribal. And it's a huge story that people are going to be talking about. Now Jeff can have his version of that moment after basically like 25 years of elite, elite work at something that's super hard.

2:02:30Bill Simmons:People, people are mad, Jason. This angered people. I get it. I mean, he did spoil a huge part of it. But again, not his fault alone. It can't be. He's not running the cameras. He's not bringing Rizzo from the green room to the to the stage door. there's a million things, other moving parts that are happening that had to fail to let that happen. Big winner. Rizzo. He was just pathetic in the fire challenge and nobody remembers now because it was the probe's mistake. Guy's practicing all day and he can't even get a spark. First two-time loser in fire. That's another one of my controversial takes.

2:03:12Bill Simmons:I don't love the fire. I don't love it as a decider. I just feel like it's become it's too important of a thing in the show's legacy. I get it in the early days, but in the early days, they did a lot of things different. Remember in the early days, each person would walk in front of the three people left and it was almost like they were a defense attorney just ripping everyone apart before. I love that. Why did they get away from that? Fire, I wouldn't spit on you? Yeah. Why did they get away from that? I used to love when they would get up and walk and they would have a whole thing prepared. They don't do that anymore.

2:03:45Fire has become much more important post-season 38 when Rick Devins was notably eliminated after Chris Underwood came off of the Edge of Extinction and had the brilliant idea, really, truly revolutionary survivor idea that I've been out of the game for so long, the way to prove that I'm in it to win it is I will put myself in fire. and say, come challenge me. I will win. And he won and he ended up winning the season. That organically became such a moment that now it's basically part of the show. I'm on the fence about it. I think sometimes it's very compelling, other times not. I would like to see Jeff move fire earlier.

2:04:34Oh.

2:04:36Bill Simmons:To win. Just surprise people with it. Yeah. Oh, interesting. Huh. We do a Game of Thrones survivor of all the characters who wins. Oh, gosh. You know, we just... Joffrey voted out early. Joffrey's number one. Joffrey just kills somebody in the middle of the challenge. because he's so crazy and that everybody wants him out. If I can get Joffrey in the final three? Yeah. Littlefinger thinks he's gonna win, but around like six, seven left, I think he gets shanked. Littlefinger's a classic overconfident, you know, irrational confidence guy and survivor for sure. So just had this debate and I made the case for Arya and Joe talked me into Tyrion, which I think is probably a pretty good answer, especially aligned with the canon of the show where like Tyrion makes it through basically everything he makes, needs to make it through.

2:05:30And then at the end says, basically in Final Tribal, like inexplicable things and everyone's like, sounds good, you know? So I think Joe's case for Tyrion is a strong one.

2:05:40Bill Simmons:That's pretty good. I like that. I like that one as well. I would say also Varys, um, because he's got a great story, you know, he's got the personal, you've got to be able to weaponize your personal trauma at some point during the show. Yeah. And who can do that? A tactical player, strategic tactical player who can do that and win. But I also agree. I think Tyrion is, I think Margaery makes the final four. Yeah. Really good. But gets a lot of flirt relationships going with multiple cast members who feel like they might have a chance after the show. A showman? A potential showman? Yeah. I think she's working that.

2:06:16Yeah. Can't have a Targaryen out there. They take their torch and they just light people on fire. That's not going to work. You know?

2:06:22Bill Simmons:Who is the one? Brienne of Tarth? I think she gets the final five too. Well, that's a great one too because you have Brienne and Jaime out there. She wins some challenges. It's like an alliance no one really saw coming. Podrick would do well. I think Podrick would do really well. Podrick would do quite well. Yeah. Oh man. Jaime, Brienne as an alliance. Incredible. Talk about like a showman. So will they, won't they? that would be gangbusters, the kind of thing that Jeff could not stop talking about at the finale. And then Jamie has to make his Cersei or Brienne choice at the end, and we're all like, no!

2:06:50It's too good.

2:06:51Bill Simmons:Well, the other thing is, they're used to really malodorous people from Game of Thrones being the 1300s. There was not a lot of deodorant back then. I wanted to ask you guys that. People were in the same clothes for months. They brought the family members. You know, it's always emotional when the family members come out, but this is later than we usually get to see this. These guys stink. Like, they are rank. Yeah, you don't even want to, it's like a fist bump from a couple feet away, right? The brothers, the mom and daughter, okay. But Joe's wife, I could, I'm sorry, I'm just going to be honest.

2:07:20I was watching this and I was like, if Adam had made it to the final three of season 50 of Survivor and I was brought out on a boat, I would not lovingly embrace him and tell him just own your game. I would be like, can you eat a coconut or something? Yeah. Can we freshen up a little bit before this is like really tough?

2:07:37Bill Simmons:Well, the game probably blows out everyone's nostrils after like six weeks. Oh, yeah, for sure. You become nose blind. Because Probst at one point, he hugged Sari after something and he was like, whoa, he did one of those. And you forget like how gaming because it's like, what, 90 degrees every day and they're just wearing the same shirt for six weeks. They used to be a lot dirtier, too. I mean, they're filthy now for sure. Yeah. But they used to be so disgustingly dirty. that it was absolutely notable. Sleeping in rat-filled caves. It's really like toned down from what it used to be on the hygiene front.

2:08:16Bill Simmons:I miss it. I miss those days. Yeah, there must be real reasons for that. All right, we just won an hour. Did we hit everything? I think we did. It's just a shame that Sari didn't get to win the season. Just say that one more time. I'll just, I said it on the pod of Spogan, and I believe this. I wish she could have been on a season that was a mix of newcomers and veterans. Much like Boston Rob's season, which no disrespect to Boston Rob, he's an absolute legend in the game. Legend, legend, legend. But it was him and Russell. He got Russell out early and a bunch of newcomers. And then it was just like target dummies to the win.

2:08:54That's legit. But I wish we would have seen Sari really work her magic against more newcomer players, not just the best of the best.

2:09:03Bill Simmons:Have they ever done like over 40? The entire cast is over 40 or over 50, anything like that, like a senior survivor almost? Golden Bachelor, but for Survivor, Golden. Silver Survivor, Golden Survivor. What a senior survivor, like Crush? You know. Just do like a little mini season of like 14 people, but then you get Colby, you get all these people anyway, and you don't have to worry about the challenges being as dangerous. I'm weighing. They can also brand it a little more like kindly, like something about wisdom, right? you know the wisdom of the years like they don't have to be like you fuckers are old but I do think that they have started casting way too young like the bulk of the cast now each season is really really young they've watched two generations of Survivor yeah and I think it's like cool when people who have lived a lot of life are out there so that would be that would be great I would love that maybe that would be what inspires my wife to finally go on I've been pushing for it forever her new thing she would do she would fucking kill no her new thing was like she was like I just wouldn't be able to, she'd win probably three, four challenges, but she would also probably kill Jeff because the narration of him during the challenges, she'd be like, Jeff, shut the fuck up.

2:10:12Bill Simmons:I'm trying to. That's why you never quit on Survivor. There's Carrie Simmons. Dig deep. She's like, Jeff, shut up. I'm trying to do this. I'm trying to do a puzzle. Stop talking. He really dialed it up in general this year. I felt like, it felt like, I don't know. He was locked in, which made the reunion thing so funny that he fucked that up. Well, we'll see. We'll see how many people either get fired or murdered after reunion special. I hope they're all safe. Yeah. Mallory, when are you going on Wait a Second? You know, I can't say I'm like up on all the conspiracy theories. There's got to be one conspiracy you care about.

2:10:47Whatever one you've got gestating, the door is open, of course.

2:10:50Bill Simmons:You don't care about scuba divers and the Maldives? You know, I have been served a couple Instagram reels about that, I will say. I don't know if it has any connection to Survivor and the amount of beautiful ocean visuals in my Instagram algorithm right now in general, but I'll give it some thought. I'll see if the production team of the live Survivor Season 50 special mysteriously disappears. Count me in. I'll be tracking it with interest. Could it be like with the scientists when the scientists started disappearing one at a time? How many were we up to? Like eight? I think it's 11 or 12 I think we're up to God Unbelievable I might have to come on soon because I have a whole NBA thing Oh please We can do NBA on Wait a Second right?

2:11:39Absolutely Sports conspiracies I have a really hardcore

2:11:43Bill Simmons:like I might have to get dressed up as Conspiracy Bill the whole thing Oh Yeah it's like one of those Yeah it's one of those Okay Well yeah Doors open anytime Alright And we've got the Zodiac Killer also waiting for you as well I know. I just got to do it. Once, once we get through the NBA third round, I'm going to really dive into Zodiac and we'll be ready. All right. You can watch and listen to Mallory and House of R. You can watch and listen to Jason. Wait a second. Great to see you both. It was fun to see you on the same screen. An absolute delight. Thanks guys. Bye guys. All right. That's it for the podcast.

2:12:19Bill Simmons:Thanks to Mahoney. Thanks to Jason and Mallory. Thanks to Gahal and Eduardo as well. Don't forget to watch Animal House this weekend because that is going to be the next rewatchable on Monday. Get ready for that one. Enjoy the weekend. I'm going to be live on Netflix Sunday night after the basketball game, which is going to be game four, Spurs-Thunder. I hope we have enough guys left on each team for an awesome game. Anyway, enjoy the weekend. I'll see you on Sunday night. Must be 21-plus in President Select States for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 plus and present in DC, Kentucky, or Wyoming.

2:12:57Bill Simmons:Game problem, call 1-800-GAMBLE or 1-800-MY-RESET. Call 888-79-7777 or visit ccpg.org slash chat in Connecticut or mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24-7 support in Massachusetts or call 877-8HOPENY or text HOPENY in New York for Louisiana. Call 877-770-7867. Good energy in. Good energy out.

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