The Shohei Live Experience, Plus the Maxey-V.J. Show, Surprise NBA Contenders, and Early Trends With Tim Legler

25:21I'm a simple pizza order for football, especially when I have friends over. You got to get a cheese. You got to get a pepperoni. And then maybe get one wacky one with like, I don't know, mushroom, peppers, maybe pepperoni or sausage. But don't get too wacky. Every time, this is one of my passions in life. Don't be the person that orders the crazy pizza that then everybody leaves and there's five slices left. Order pizza that people want to eat. Go with the basics. Go with the safe ones. Right now, you can get 15 % off orders of$15 on NFL Game Days with code GAMEDAY. Order now at littlecaesars.com or in the Little Caesars app.

25:59Offer ends February 8th, 2026. Offer good at participating Little Caesars stores on app and online orders, excluding third-party online sites with an online purchase,$15 more. Only available on NFL game days. Enter a promo code at checkout to get 15 % off your online order. Max discount,$5. Limit one per person per day. Cannot be combined with any other offers, plus tax where applicable. Prices may vary. Delivery available from participating locations with online orders only. Copyright 2025 LCE Incorporated. All right, Tim Legler's here. We're taping this on early Tuesday afternoon Pacific time.

26:33He's going to be popping on the ringer all through the year on my podcast and on Zach Lowe's podcast. Couldn't be more excited to have you aboard. And congratulations on being on the top ESPN team. I feel like we've already seen you a lot. Yeah, I appreciate it, man. Yeah, we have. We have. It was a big opening week for all of us. We got new partners in this too. So it was a big, big opening splashy week for the NBC, Amazon, us, ABC, everybody. So it's off to a great start. Really excited to be part of that crew. And we got two under our belts now with Mike, Richard, and myself. And we're happy with the start we've had.

27:08And we know it's just going to get better and better. Well, people don't realize what a mean guy Mike Breen is. Like just mean to everybody. Like just snaps at people. And like he's just really an awful person. So I hope that's okay. Is there a better guy in the business, Bill? Is there a better guy in the business than Mike Breen? He really is. He might be in the running for most liked person who's in sports media, which, you know, sports media could be a hornet's nest, but people agree on very few things. But one of them is I like Mike Breen. All right, so I want to start here. I sent you a bunch of things I want to talk about, but I did not send you this one.

27:42I think we have the most talent right now, not only from like a top player standpoint, but maybe even like a top 35 to 40 standpoint, there's so much talent everywhere. And the only time I can think of that was like this, was that early nineties, which was ironically when you were in the league, where we just had all these future hall of famers. We had all these great players in their primes. You could see with the dream team, but you could also see it in the playoffs. You can see it in the all NBA stuff. Um, it was just kind of a unicorn time. And it feels like we're coming back because this kind of Wimby level, those guys, the under 25 guys are now ascending, but we still have the other group of guys.

28:25And then we even have some of the old guys like Curry. I just don't, I can't fathom how much talent we have. And I watch, I I'm flipping around league pass and it's like Charlotte, I kind of like their team. They're going to win like 25 games and you look at the town and you're like, I kind of like these guys. Have you noticed that even from the games you're going to like, holy shit? Yeah, because I mean, can you ever remember a week of a start of a season that had as many huge scoring outbursts as we just had over the past week? And that includes from a team standpoint, some of the numbers these teams are putting up, but mostly from an individual standpoint, we've had some unlikely guys have 50 point games already in the first week.

29:07I think we've had some other guys that like, okay, our first game, like, you know, we get Shea Gilgis-Alexander. He goes for 55. You're like, okay, that's not shocking. But, you know, you get Austin Reeves dropping 50. Laurie Markkinen's had a 50-point game. Aaron Gordon had a 50-point game. So, yeah, the shot-making capabilities across the league, the number of guys that have a lot of high-level shot-making in their bag, whether it's off the dribble deep or mid-range or whatever it may be, there's just more dudes that can check into a game and make shots at a high level than we've ever had in this league and when you combine that with what these teams are all trying to replicate with pace and style and spacing and the and the whistles which we're going to talk about i think at some point today when you add all that up you get what you're looking at now which is like the league is tailor-made for guys that want to add these types of things to their game and ability to shoot the ball with escapability off the dribble first to create their own, the step back, the side step three, like all of these different shots they can get off.

30:13The runners and floaters and the array of shot making that guys can make now on the move toward the rim. There's just more guys on the court that can do all of these things. And yeah, it's been pretty eye-opening. And it's been like this for a couple years for me, but I don't recall ever in the 25 years I've been at ESPN, this is my 25th year, seeing a week at the start of the season like this in terms of these box scores that are just absolutely popping off the page? Yeah, I was trying to think of reasons other than sometimes talent just comes in waves, which certainly happened your first few years in the NBA.

30:50We just had a lot of talent. There might be 40 reasons for that. There might be no reasons. It might just be luck. But I do feel like when you think about how the league shifted, basically right around when Curry started to hit with the Warriors, and we started spacing and the whole concept of a big man started to change. We had all this trial and error for 12 years. And now the league plays the way it plays. But then you also have all these people coming in through AAU, high school, college that are trained to play that way. And I watched somebody like Vijay Edgecombe coming in who, you know, I really liked in the draft.

31:24I thought like this guy has a chance to be a star. He'll come in. He'll be an awesome athlete. He'll be a defender. He'll be athletic. He'll be a work in progress. It's going to take some time. he was like running offense for Philly last night. I watched the second half of that game. He was running their offense when Maxie was out and just has a level of sophistication at age 20 that I wasn't prepared for. So do you think that's a piece of that, that they're just kind of used to how the game goes at this level and they just come in and can fit in? Or are these guys just freaks? No, I think it is a lot of that.

31:59I think they're sitting there watching the league, some of these guys, and they're seeing, this league is now tailor-made for the opportunity that having that kind of offense presents and they're jumping all over it. Now, what you don't know when these guys come to the league, I also loved, loved Edgecombe. And I thought it was like really almost divine intervention for Philly. And I like, look, I like Ace Bailey too. And Ace Bailey might turn into a really, really high level NBA player, but it's just funny how that played out for Philly. Once Ace Bailey's like, well, I'm not even going to come interview.

32:29to me, if I'm running a team, that takes you out of the equation for me. If I hear that, that's right. And I think that kind of led to it now. It's like, well, then it's definitely going to be Edgecombe. And obviously, these people in Philadelphia know a lot of these are my knucklehead friends who love the Sixers. And they're losing their minds over the start. They try to trade it. They try to trade it for a month and a half. And they kind of, all right, we'll take Edgecombe. And now he's awesome. That's a great point. So in a lot of ways, it's almost like they were kind of forced into a corner with this pick and him being at that point, like the obvious guy to pick.

33:03And they picked him. So you see the talent. I love the athletic ability and the strength. But what you don't know until you see a guy take the court in the NBA is what's his confidence level like from day one? Some guys just hit the ground running with that. they don't have that overly deferential gene and they just go and they just play that's what edgecombe is doing so everything is kind of funneling in that direction for him right off the bat the guy's sensational 34 in his first game and he really hasn't hasn't let up since you know other guys they have all the talent the size the skill whatever it may be but and the situation's there they're getting minutes but there's something about the wiring that takes a little longer for them to understand and recognize like it's okay for me to be an alpha right now on this trip on this possession in the open floor like just go and not think let muscle memory take over and just be what you are as a natural athlete and player some guys get there earlier and edgecomb he got there immediately like as soon as he walked out of the tunnel the first night um in boston yeah that that's comfort is so think about comfortability and confidence and when a guy can come in and have both of those things, which usually doesn't happen for rookies.

34:22We have multiple guys who were like that this year in this rookie class. Like Dylan Harper is like that now. Like he's, I don't know where he's going to be, but he knows how to already play with him without the ball. Edge comes like that. Knipple is just like the ideal third or fourth guy for any team. Like he can basically do whatever, you know, and you just go down the line and then flag who I want to talk about later. Cause I really have an issue with what they're doing with him. but Flag's another one who's really comfortable like Flag and I think the Sunday game at one point he did like a Tatum put fake forward step back three and I was like you're 18 what the fuck was that?

35:07you should have that in like year five like you're shooting that now in a third quarter like I couldn't believe it I first laid eyes on Cooper Flag when he was about 14-15 years old and I started telling everybody I knew about him then. I'm just like, just wait till this guy's ready for the draft. At that point, of course, you don't even know where he's going to go to school. You don't know any of that. I just know that when you see what jumped out to me immediately was this dude has a competitive toughness about him, like an edge. And he was a target every time he walked onto a court at the AAU level.

35:41Every team was looking at him. They were talking to him starting with the opening jump ball circle. He's got somebody in his ear telling him what they're not going to let him do to them tonight. And he's been hearing that since he was, you know, literally 12, 13, 14 years old. And some guys can handle all that. Some guys can't. He clearly could. Then it became a matter of, all right, he's got the athletic ability, the size, the toughness. He loves playing defense. That jumped out to me, man. He's got a lot of want to. Then you just don't know, like, how much will he add between now and, like, the time he's 18, 19, and he's ready for the draft.

36:13And he added a hell of a lot. Now, I think his shooting is going to be streaky this year. He's going to contribute to them in winning ways. I think a lot of nights without necessarily having big scoring nights, the shooting is going to be up and down and all over the place. But what's not going to be up and down is that guy's desire competitiveness and winning attitude about how he approaches the game. That, to me, is what stood out more than anything else. so the confidence level's there but it doesn't happen like the way it's happening for Edgecombe very often this fast where you get into that kind of rhythm and everything's going in early and so Cooper Flagg will be fine I think he's a can't miss but obviously he hasn't had a great start offensively here Wow, I mean I would say 90 % of that is they're asking him to be the point guard of the team and run fast breaks and And, you know, I just think that should have been like a year four, year five thing.

37:12I know they don't have Kyrie back. It almost makes me wonder if Kyrie's coming back this year and they're like, we're just going to take our lumps with this until he figures it out. And then we can play D 'Lo on the side here for 25 minutes a game. But we need these other 20 minutes from flag. It's a team that I was really bullish on them because of the defense and the size. And I just think it's going to be choppy, but I'm not giving up on it. But the one thing with him, his ability to rebound, bring the ball down, and find somebody, like either a cutter or like three on two fast break. He's doing stuff that is pretty high level.

37:47But then you watch like some of the pressing stuff that's happening, which was one of the things I wanted. We could talk about it now. I'm shocked by the, and this started last year. Now it's really happening this year, is teams pressing and teams trying to put miles on the best players of other teams. the Celtics did it in the Pistons game where they had Hugo Gonzalez just like, just bug the shit out of Cade. Just follow him around everywhere, really put the miles on him. And it's something I feel like Indiana started and now more teams are doing it and they're using deeper benches and just trying to put miles on the other team.

38:24That's one trend. Are there other trends you're seeing other than that one? Well, I want to talk about that one for a second because you're right. And a number of coaches that I talked to And I got a chance to talk to all of these guys at the coaches' meetings, right, a couple weeks before the season started. And now I've had two games, so there's four more coaches you could talk to about these things. And the metrics pointed out, the data shows them that that stuff matters in terms of attrition over the course of a game and pressuring up on these guys, particularly guys that are constantly initiating and always have the ball first in the backcourt.

38:57It's going to affect guys less if you have a secondary ball handler that could do that at a high level, or if just these are some guys, you know, that are really high level players, they'll run up the floor without the ball, you know, a good amount throughout the game. And then they get into action from there. But there are guys in this league, if they're on the floor, it's almost always in their hands coming up to court, particularly after made baskets or dead balls. And they're seeing on film and just the numbers bear out. It matters over the course of a game and it wears guys down a little bit.

39:29In the case of Cooper Flagg, the thing that I really loved about him when I saw him in Vegas was, and I know he wasn't playing against NBA rotational players for the most part, but he was able to handle the ball against smaller, much quicker players who could beat him to the spot. But he didn't have any problem manipulating the ball up the floor against that. And that really stood out to me. Like, man, I didn't know he had that kind of command of his handle where he was not affected by the pressure of some of these guys that were in that 6 '4", 6 '5", range that were really quick picking him up.

40:02Didn't seem to faze him at all. I agree with you, Bill. I think it's too much to ask out of the gate. For a guy that's trying to find his confidence as a player at this league, a lot of pressure, a lot of eyes on him. to now say, okay, can you also please help facilitate and coordinate and orchestrate where guys are going to be and get guys shots? It's not that natural to them. There's a big difference between being a ball-handling forward and a point guard. Those are two entirely different things. So when I got D 'Angelo Russell, I said, hey, this is a perfect pickup to buy time until Kyrie comes back.

40:37D 'Angelo Russell has played some high-level basketball in this league at the point guard position. Let him play point. and let Cooper Flagg have some situations where he gets to handle in ball screen and handle in transition if he takes it off the glass himself. That's a weapon for your team. That should not be, to me, his focal point on walk-it-up situations. I just think it's too much to put on his plate right out of the gate when you've got a guy like DeAngelo Russell sitting there. Yeah, and I think they'll move away for it, maybe run more of the half court with him. But, you know, I watched the Celtics put this on Tatum slowly over the course of five, six years, right?

41:11where he, and last year he was really good as a point forward of finding people and creating stuff. There's still a last level though that I just don't think you could ever ask for somebody like that who's not a natural point guard. Like there's still true point guards. They're taking care of everybody. They're thinking about everybody. They're like, oh, Anthony Davis hasn't had a shot in four minutes. I got to get him one or he's going to stop playing defense. Like there's these little things that you just can't expect something like flagged a no, right? Let me sum it up this way. That's a great point.

41:47And here is the difference psychologically. And I actually talked about this. And the guy that I used as an example of somebody that can do it at a really high level, who I love watching play, was Lonzo Ball, who joined the Cavs this year, right? And here's the difference. Guys like that, that have been doing that their whole life, when there's one guy in front of them or there's, you know, it's two-man action they're running, either way, they're already scanning and anticipating the next reaction of the next defender and they kind of know what these chain of events are going to lead to based on what i do this is what should be open and there's multiple reads taking place and all it's about is the next defender that's not in the initial action whether that's the iso guy in front of him he's looking at the second defender that's going to be the help guy.

42:36If it's a two-man game he's running, he's thinking about the next defender that's going to get into the paint or whatever they're going to do based on the action they're going to run, and he's thinking about making a play for that guy on his team. Scorers that can make plays, it's a totally different thing. Their playmaking comes after their own scoring has been exhausted. Those options have been exhausted and now as an afterthought, okay, there's a play to be made. And look, some of those guys do it at a really high level. They can give you those 35.8 assist nights, but the assists come after they have hunted for themselves.

43:14And now something organically happens for a guy. That's different than thinking the game the way that I described. When you're already manipulating the pieces defensively with your eyes and you're understanding what the next thing's going to be, and that's the chain of events that's going to dictate where I throw the ball. that's a totally different level of thinking of facilitating and like running a team that most like scorers at a high level at the NBA level aren't going to really do it at the level of the guys I'm talking about that have played that position their entire life yeah at some point it's a seesaw and when you have the ball the seesaw is either going to be like I'm more of a scorer I'm more of a creator for other people right my favorite players were always the ones that were always thinking about creating for everybody else and then could shift the seesaw if they actually needed to score.

44:02Jokic being the ultimate example of that, but Bird of Magic. We've had a lot of those. I'm glad you brought up Lonzo, though. Him on the Cavs is a really intriguing wrinkle for this season that I kind of didn't... You never know if he's going to be healthy. They don't have their full team. It's going to be a while. But I just think he's one of the most... If he's one of your nine guys, he's so additive when he's out there. He's just so much fun to play with. And the better, I don't think he's ever been on a team that had players like this. And I just, it just made me think like, man, when they get everybody back, what kind of lineups are they going to use?

44:41Are they ever going to have a drop off when you have Garland and Mitchell, but then you have Lonzo as this third guard? Like, I actually think that team has a higher ceiling than maybe I thought. Now, who knows if he could stay healthy, but did you notice that? He's definitely is somebody that I paid attention to the acquisition. and I've always been a huge fan of his. Really, really cheered for him, making his way all the way back from what he went through. Most guys wouldn't have had the will to do it. So I pull for guys like that because he loves it. And now you see the acquisition and they lost Ty Jerome, had a very good year for them.

45:12And they bring Alonzo Ball and I'm kind of like, okay, that's interesting. Let's see how that looks. And then I talked to Kenny Atkinson a few weeks ago and I'm just talking about their team, their season and whatever. And what he was saying about Alonzo Ball and what he was seeing led me to think going into that first game we called Cavs-Knicks that now I was really anticipating his impact. And it's so obvious when he got on a court. Yeah. And Bill, here's how I describe him. And there's not that many guys I would describe in this way. His sole reason for existing on a basketball court is to make guys better on his own team.

45:47Yeah. And man, as a shooter, did I love when I played with guys that even tried to think that way. It's just so fun to play with them because it's really, and he's going to take his shots and he's going to read defenses and, you know, he'll do his thing. But it's, it's really all about, if you're willing to expend energy offensively with running and cutting and movement, then he is going to absolutely make your life easier and make, make everything easier for you as a scorer. And I saw it even that night, his advanced passes are on that level with like a Jason kid, a Steve Nash where the ball is thrown on a rope up the sideline 30 or 40 feet and it's kind of a subtle thing you don't notice but it puts so much pressure on the defense running back that it leads to awesome secondary offense and Lonzo is so good at the advanced pass and I think you're right this is going to be one of those role player acquisitions that we're going to be talking about having a major impact all season long I think Al Horford's another one of those in Golden State like those Those are going to be two examples of guys that joined teams and systems.

46:54I know. I didn't mean to put you in a bad mood with the talk. Too soon. Too soon for us. I know. I hear you, man. Especially with the start, Dave. Especially when you see the Celtics big guys. We'll take a break and I have a whole bunch of stuff to throw you. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Countless hours in the gym. A thousand shots before tip-off. Day after day on the same court. with the State Farm stanchion right there. That's right, the best players put in the work. And State Farm is the same way with insurance experts who put in the work as well. Whether you get a digital quote or reach out to a local agent, State Farm is there to get to know you and help you select the right coverage that fits your life and your budget.

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48:10So everything's working together toward your goals. Take the next step in your financial journey with Mariner. Investment advisory services offered through Mariner LLC and SEC registered investment advisor. For more information, visit mariner.com. And now it's time for Don't Settle, a new segment presented by State Farm. You may think that insurance is all the same, but let me tell you something, having insurance isn't the same as having State Farm. Don't settle for just any insurance when they're a State Farm. It's a little like the Patriots right now. The Patriots are six and two. They hired a new coach last year.

48:47The team wasn't very well coached. They could have stuck with them another year, but they thought to themselves, you know, why are we just going to settle with this? Mike Vrabel's available. He's one of the best seven or eight coaches in the league. We have a franchise quarterback. Let's bring in a real coach here that can maybe transform the culture of our team, turn us into an immediate playoff team with this fourth place schedule we have and build something around our franchise guy, Drake May. They did not settle. And guess what? It worked great. You wouldn't settle for just anything for your team on the football field.

49:19The Patriots share didn't. Shouldn't it be the same for your insurance? Don't settle for just any insurance when they're a State Farm. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. By rule, because this is a basketball podcast today, we have to spend at least five to 10 minutes on the Spurs, which not only are the most interesting story of the season, but is the water cooler topic this year. Is the league pass team that has to be on if you're watching multiple games at once. And what Wemby's doing, I remember for the year on Fandu, he was 12-1 to win the MVP. Now he's one of the favorites. I guess we're here.

49:56House and I talked about it on my podcast on Thursday where it's like, I guess we're here. I guess he's one of the guys now. Jokic, Giannis, Luka, SGA, whatever order you want. Do you feel like he has to be with those four guys now from just what you've seen in four games? There's no doubt about it. I would have said that after probably the first half of the first game because I'm sitting there like everybody. And, you know, obviously he shut it down last year. And we saw things last year too. And I had already thought about him, even in a limited amount of time we saw him last year, that I felt like every time I watched Wembenyama, there was something he did in that game that I would say, that's the only guy in the league that could have done that.

50:41And he gave me at least one of those every night. and so you know the anticipation was there let's see what this looks like this year what has he added um you know they had already said he got stronger and that really translates more like functionally stronger than necessarily body mass functional strength is a real thing and like leg stuff right he seems sturdier and his base is on balance his base is better yeah when he drives and he's got a defender riding his rim and like his his hip and his rib cage he's not pushed like where he's not going in a straight line at the rim anymore where he would drift off toward the baseline and shoot something off balance off one foot he's releasing the ball when he wants to now he's playing through some of that contact so it's more extended toward the rim and it's just improved his efficiency so he's stronger I saw the first half of that first game and I'm going this is I don't know what exactly teams are supposed to do offensively against this and it's translating to them being four No, no, look, they've played three bad teams.

51:41And if you throw Dallas in there, maybe even three and a half bad teams right now, because I think Dallas will be okay. They're not very good right now. And then three other not very good teams. And it's okay, but let's look at like, what's really going on. You can't score in the paint against this team and they're not giving up anything at second chance points. They're okay in transition, like mediocre. When you can't score in the paint against teams, right? Now you're relegated to just taking even more threes than you want, lower efficiency shots probably because you have more guys taking them, but you don't want taking them because you can't get to the rim.

52:12This is what it looks like. A suffocating defense that really kind of demoralizes you. And I've seen some shoulders drop against the San Antonio Spurs so far that you don't typically see at the NBA level. Like literally getting dispirited with how difficult this is looking to get to the rim. And also then the way he's scoring at you and making you feel so small on the other end of the floor. it's really been like wow moments like I can't believe the way that guys are sagging their heads dropping their heads because they're that frustrated with what this looks like to them on the court so yeah man there's no doubt Wemby is in now must see category and that team is going to be as a result yeah he's surrounded by these pit bulls basically and they're on their own really really athletic aggressive scary defenders, but then they're backed by him.

53:07And the Cornette thing was big, which any Celtic fan knew that that was going to be good for them. They can play them together, which I was expecting, but they actually kind of make sense because Wembe drifts a little more outside. He's way closer to the rim offensively, which I think was my biggest frustration with him, and they've really tried. You can feel the geometry of that shifting. Then they have this weird Fox situation because I want Dylan Harper to play. there's really something there that I think they need to tap into now. Castle went up a level. I think if you talk about like who went up a level this year, like he's, he would be on the first team for that.

53:43And now they're going to move Fox in. Who's been an all-star who's in the prime of his career, who just signed a new contract. I think that's going to be a good thing. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's going to be a challenge to figure out how all those guys are comfortable. Like that's, that's the thing because it's, they all, and even Castle more so this year than I saw him last year at all. Just with the ball in his hands as a playmaker and like reading high ball screen, like just throwing alley-oops, like all kinds of stuff. All kinds of advanced stuff, yeah. Fox is more of like, you know, he's more of like an engine, go get mine score.

54:18He can facilitate, but like even in Sacramento, like a lot of their real facilitating took place through Sabonis. De 'Aaron Fox just goes. He's got this elite speed and elite pull-up mid-range. Like that's his game. Harper and Castle are different types of players. Fascinating to watch all of them. And I'm curious when they have all three at their disposal, like how those minutes get allocated. Yeah, it's funny when you're thinking of nitpicks for the Spurs before the year and like, well, the shooting's going to be an issue. And it's like, it actually doesn't matter. These guys are the most frightening, athletic, giant, weird team that anyone's going to play all year.

54:55The demoralizing thing is interesting. I want to, I'm going to look out for that when I'm watching. Cause well, can I give you two examples of it? Yeah. So go, go, go back. And, and, and I fire you and you could, you can catch this just if you just get the highlight reel from each of his games. Yeah. And cause it'll be an eight, nine minute tape of just him and the stuff that he's doing. Right. So take a look at some of the reaction from Zion in that game against the Pelicans. Take a look at some of the reaction of Anthony Davis in the Dallas game. and and and look i know the dallas game i saw more of it after the score got a little lopsided yeah and so maybe that was part of it for ad but but there was definitely kind of like this look of like like almost like submission like defensively against him and i was like wow you know and look it's early in the year they don't have all their guys kyrie's not out there they're down 25 i get it so i'm not making a big judgment on anthony davis i'm actually more complimenting women yama because like if you're doing that to a guy of that caliber, that's that good defensively and his reputation is that good defensively in this league.

56:00And it's, it's just like what you're doing to this team makes them look futile. And, and then with Zion, it was more like what he was doing to Zion, like defensively against Zion. Like Zion's not used to that. Just bowling over everybody and getting any shot he wants in the paint. And guess what? That's not happening. Put a shoulder into your sternum, move you. And then he's great. He's got that. He extends it out to his left hand. He's all these great touch shots with English. He puts on it high off the glass. And he was putting his shoulder into the sternum. Actually, on Wemby, it was more like his belly button than his sternum.

56:35And then Wemby is like giving ground, giving ground, giving ground, but still reaching over the top of him like an umbrella. And so Zion would still try to shoot it and get it blocked. And you could see him shake his head and start shuffling back down the court on defense. It's like so frustrated. He looked very young. He looked like a very young player getting frustrated, right? And these are two guys that are elite players in this league, and that's what Wambi Nyama's capable of doing to you. Yeah, that's a really rare level to get to. Like you were in the league after Jordan came back, when him and Pitbull were together that first season, and they were doing some stuff defensively, athletically, where it was almost like watching a great NFL defense or something, where they would just kind of ruin the quarterback's brain.

57:23But in this case, these were really good NBA players who were just like, I'm kind of broken. Can you just take me out? You saw it. And I wonder if the only team, Bill, that I ever played against. Those mid-90s Bulls teams that when you would foul them and now they're going to the line when they've got Rodman, Pippen, Jordan, that group, Harper. and now they're going to the line and you're going, oh my God, here comes this press. Like, you know, you don't, you never worried about getting pressed in the NBA. Most teams that have tried to like zone press and they would go to like a one-two, one-one press.

58:01Like that doesn't work at the NBA level. The teams that have tried that in the past, you're giving up so much easy, fast stuff the other way. But yet they were so long and so fast and so aggressive and the rules kind of allowed a little bit more grabbing and holding and slapping and like that kind of stuff in the backcourt. It was kind of like, oh man, the last thing you wanted to do was break to the ball in the backcourt in the corner and catch the ball. And like, so you do anything you could to avoid that death trap down there. So yeah, and again, yeah. So it's that feeling of like, man, this is like a little bit overwhelming.

58:34Like this defense, because you haven't seen anything like it. That was the best defensive team I ever played against. And I played against the mid-90s Knicks teams, those Pacers teams, the Heat. These are great defensive teams, but nothing really, to me, was really on the level because of the athletic ability, quickness, and length of those Bulls teams. And now it's like a different level of demoralization with what Wemby can do with the ground he covers and the amount of coverage in the lane. I don't know what that even looks like to these guys on the court. I'd be fascinated to drop into a virtual world and see what that looks like with Wemby on the court putting his arms out to the side and how difficult that must look to score.

59:11Yeah, there was a moment in that Dallas game where Flag, who's played against everybody and obviously has a ton of confidence, and you could tell he was like, ah, fuck this Wemby guy, I'll go right at him. And he had this one where he took him and he was about to shoot and Wemby's giant spider arm came out and he just kind of stopped. And then, but he had already picked up his dribble and then he kind of had to turn and get rid of the ball and you could see him, like he couldn't compute what just happened, which seems like that's every game where these guys have played basketball their old lives.

59:43They're like, I'm going to do this. Oh, I guess I'm not going to do that. Help? Anyone? And now I want to see him. I want to see like, so now I've got a little bit of a sample of it with the two guys I mentioned. Now, if that starts happening on a regular basis where it's just like this overwhelming frustration for some of these guys, it's going to be fascinating. The other thing he's changed, Bill, like we're talking about, he got functionally stronger. Like, what has he added? He's meaner. I love it. He's meaner because he's a little older, man. He was young, foreign-born player coming into the league, super hyped, really thin, and guys trying to get up in him when he was handling the ball.

1:00:20He had a lot of turnovers that first 15, 20 games he played. And we're like, okay, I guess that 7-5 handle is not going to work in this league after all. Some people drawing conclusions on him right away. And I'm going, he's nice. And he's kind of shy in a way. And what do I do? He's got none of that. He's just shed all of that stuff. He's got this nasty edge to him now where he is walking onto the court and he wants to rip your heart out. He wants to do the things we're talking about. I want to demoralize you and frustrate you. And I'm coming for you. Like every trip. He didn't have that until this year.

1:00:55And so it's really going to be fascinating to see what this guy's season looks like. There's some ceiling stuff with that team. like just I was looking at the FanDuel stuff which always tells you kind of has the market caught up with what I think I'm seeing with my eyes Like they're still for their division, right? Which their division has Houston in it. It has Dallas, Memphis, and New Orleans. And I was like, I feel like San Antonio versus Houston, not only for records, but for the division, to me that's a toss-up. Because I think they're as good as Houston. And I know it's small sample size.

1:01:32Schedule hasn't been great yet. I don't really care. Like I think they're as good as Houston if Wemby can play 65 to 70 games. but like they're plus two 10 for the division. It's like, nobody kind of believes it yet. And I, I think it's because people just want to see when we play for three straight months. Can you think of another reason? Because from a talent standpoint, they're with Houston, I think. I think, um, I don't, I don't know if I'd agree that they're necessarily there with a talent from a talent standpoint, but I think that women Yama alone kind of makes up for anything. If you look at like head to head matchups, I was factoring that in though.

1:02:07They have a top guy. I thought maybe you were talking about just one through eight, looking at all those guys. Okay, yeah, so Wem and Young makes up for some of that. That's going to be the fascinating thing for me to see, and I'm just glancing at this. I mean, this is kind of crazy. Oh, here they go. They play them Friday, November 7th. So that's going to be a first opportunity to see what that looks like because, look, Houston has the potential to be top three, top four defensive team in the league. They've got athletes and size that they can throw at him. quickness, the changing ends of the floor can be something that they can use against Wemmy.

1:02:45I'm fascinated to see it. But look, as four games in, it's been absolutely jaw-dropping, some of the things we've seen out of him. Again, the schedule has been favorable to get off to this kind of start. Let me see them play some of the true top-tier teams in the Western Conference. Then you'll get a much better idea of the sustainability of San Antonio winning to where Are they more than a playing team? Is this a top six team, top five team, top four team? Have you changed your mind to that extent? I'm probably going to need to see about 15 to 20 game sample size to kind of come to those conclusions because some weird stuff happens right out of the gate with some of these teams and some it's not sustainable.

1:03:25And then other teams have been really bad that you know are going to be better. So I want to give it a little bit more time. Well, here's the problem. I'm more easily influenced than you and I'm more impetuous. So I think they're there already. I think that you think By the way, there's nothing wrong It's smart to make the prediction now Because I really feel this way I really think they're a 50 win team Like I genuinely do I think they're loaded I'm kind of in disbelief You're going to look pretty damn smart Like people are going to be like Wow, Bill called this after a week 50 win team And if you're not right I don't think a lot of people are going to hold on to that So I think it's worth the risk to make that kind of prediction Before the year, we did our over-unders, me and Zach Lowe and Joe House.

1:04:08And one of my locks was San Antonio over 43 and a half. Because I was like, I just have too much talent. I can't imagine if Wemby's going to play. The ceiling for them has gone up in what I watched. I think that Houston game is a really interesting game to point to, though. Because you're right. On the one hand, Houston's got big bodies to throw at Wemby, and we're going to really see him get tested in a different way. On the other hand, San Antonio has all these defenders and people to throw at this Houston, we don't have a guard situation where it's like, Durant's going to bring the ball up this time.

1:04:40Thompson will bring it up this time. It's like, okay, are you going to still do that when we're pressuring your 94 feet and bringing in waves of dudes and we have Wemby? So in a weird way, they're going to pick at each other's warts. And that's just a good rivalry to begin with. I totally agree with that. And I think you might, listen, I had him at the under on that number because I saw that number too, because I thought they were going to be around a 500 team. And I'm not 100 % convinced yet. They're a 50-win team because I want to see them play better competition. But here's what is undeniable.

1:05:11If Victor Wemenyama stays healthy and he plays, you know, 70 to 75 games, if he gives them that, they're going to be top five defensive rated team in the league without question. And there's going to be a lot of nights. If you don't make enough threes against them, you can't beat them because you're just not going to score enough points inside 20 feet. And that's what I'm looking at now with San Antonio. Like, I think that part of the equation is sustainable because they've got good perimeter defenders to go with it, funneling it to this guy. Yeah. That's going to give them opportunities on nights when they don't shoot well to win games.

1:05:46So that's going to be there. Now let's see what great defensive teams can do against them. And that's what I need to see. If you were Houston, would you say fuck it and use your assets and try to get a real guard and be cutthroat and use the VanVleet contract and use some of the Brooklyn Phoenix stuff and really try to get somebody who could change your destiny and make you a title contender right now? Because they're not without a guard. A couple weeks ago, I said, and I think some people in Houston lost their minds, and I said, if Reed Shepard turns out not to be able to take that leap this year, and first of all, I like Reed Shepard a lot.

1:06:27I think Reed Shepard's going to have a nice career in this league. if it turns out he's not quite ready and they see that after like 20 games. Yeah. When you've got Kevin Durant at this stage of his career, you didn't bring him in to think about any sort of long-term horizon beyond this season. You're thinking about winning it all this year and next year and however many years he plays. But every year you're recalibrating to win a championship. So if Reed Shepard is not quite ready to do that and you're going, man, like this, this kind of run your offense by committee through Amon Thompson, Durant and Shingun is just not good enough, particularly in tight games in the fourth quarter when you've got to really execute and organize and make great decisions on the break and like all the stuff you have to do and no fast breaks.

1:07:16You're not getting any fast break points at all if you have no point guard. That's exactly right. And I said, then if that's the case, they may look to make a trade and try to bring in a point guard. And I do think that's true. Now, we're not ready to quite do that yet. We're a week in. But let's look at this as you get to late November, like early December, and see what's their record in crunch time games. What is their efficiency in the last three minutes of close games? That's going to kind of tell you if they think what they have is good enough or not. And if it's not, would not be surprised one bit if they went out and added a point guard just because of where you are with Kevin Durant in this stage of his career and how long are you going to have him?

1:08:00And you got to try to win it if you have him on your roster. It's that simple. Well, we saw it the same way. You have to give Reed Shepard 20 games. They're going to be a playoff team. They don't need to panic. But when it gets to mid-December range, Christmas time, and also you're going to have a couple teams that either have decided, ah, we suck, or didn't realize we weren't going to be good. Maybe we should make a trade. The Celtics are a really good example of this. I don't want to trade Derek White, but the Celtics aren't good. I thought the Celtics were going to be like a 8, 9, 10 seed and win a playing game when Tatum came back.

1:08:40I don't think that's happening. And I actually wonder, I was going to talk about this with you later, but we can talk about it now. I actually wonder if the way they built the team was kind of a really stealth tank situation. They can't rebound. They can't protect the rim or rebound. I knew this going in, but my stupid Celtics brain was like, oh, they're going to shoot threes. They'll play with pace. They have the infrastructure. They're not going to get stops. They're not going to be able to rebound. And at some point, you got to look at Derek White. And I know I'm not the first one to bring this up.

1:09:12I'm not the last. But at some point, you look at Derek White in his early 30s, who's a winning player who's awesome, who would be great on Houston and could be a missing piece for them. And it's like, is that a trade that makes sense for both sides? That's the kind of stuff that we don't know now. But around Christmas, if the Celtics are 10 and 22, maybe you start thinking about it. Well, first of all, I was kind of with you in terms of what I thought their ceiling was this year. That's about where I had them. And again, that probably sounds 500-ish, right? That's kind of where I was thinking.

1:09:42I was like, okay, man, this team was used to winning games. They still got a toughness there. like they've got Jalen Brown to kind of be the main guy Derek White is a great like next option they're going to be fine they're hard to guard because of their style here's the problem and this was the one thing I was worried about it's kind of looking that way early it's one thing just to say this is the way we play we're going to keep playing that way we're going to take 46 threes a night and that's what they're doing right now they're shooting 31 % on those and you know why? because the quality of the shots are in is good because Jason Tatum is not out there because you don't have Jason Tatum So Jason Tatum was the magnet to create leverage defensively to shift the defense and to make you accountable in communications.

1:10:23And that extra body being four feet closer to the action meant a longer closeout to the role player on the weak side. And that meant a difference between a contested and a semi-contested or an open shot. And that's a big deal to role-playing shooters. Those guys that are standing out there waiting on the ball, when you've got action taking place that Tatum's initiating and there's this big shift in the defense, and now the ball comes your way, that extra half count matters a lot. And now you're seeing that with them. So I'm kind of worried like you are because I'm going, and then there's not like there's this physical dimension to them defensively where you're like, okay, that's going to keep them afloat every night.

1:11:02That's not really been there. Look, Derek White and Peyton Pritchard are really struggling to shoot the ball right now. And they hit a heater at the same time. That's going to help a lot, but it's not going to improve the overall quality on average of the shots you're taking. And that is why they were so lethal from the three point line. Most nights, that's not really there now. And so here we are one in three. And I texted you a couple of his go. They lose if they they're all in three. Like if they lose this next one, man, but they got to win. So I was on so many Celtics threads about if we lose this new Orleans game, the next three, Cleveland at Philly, and then Houston the next night.

1:11:42And it was like, are we going to go 0-7? Is this going to be? What happens if they go, but they got one. But I'd find it hard to believe unless they just shot 25 for 50 from three that they're going to win any of the next three games. On the flip side, this Philly thing. And we didn't do locks either way. The Philly over under for wins was 42.5. It's like, great. I have no idea what's going to happen with this team. But I leaned under because of Embiid. I just don't see it. I don't think he's going to stay healthy. Did not see the Vijay Maxey thing coming. What's really interesting is the style and how fast they're playing.

1:12:19And then what happened with Maxey, where if you're going to make the list of like leap guys this year, he's the number one. I mean, it's not even close. He looks like a different guy and he was good last year. This year is different. This year he's looking like he's moving toward that Mitchell Brunson kind of group, which I would not have expected. What are you seeing with Maxey? I agree. That's a good group to put him in. And I'm looking at a guy that is one of the quickest in the league from 30 feet to the rim. He's just an absolute blur. You cannot keep, especially going to his right hand. He's got unlimited range.

1:12:53He shoots it incredibly well going left off the dribble to the point where most defenses aren't willing to extend on ball screen. So he gets that shot whenever he wants. The one thing he's getting this year pretty regularly is getting calls, which we're going to get into. A lot of guys are getting calls, but he's getting the whistle this year, the benefit of the doubt on a lot of stuff he didn't last year. Now, listen, he's playing out of his mind. They're winning games. I don't think they're doing it if he isn't doing that at the same time Edgecombe is playing the way he is. It's the combination of the two of them has been this relentless onslaught from the guard positional teams that no one has really been able to figure out here early in the year.

1:13:32Do they put up 136 on Orlando? I know. I know. And I watched every second of that game. At no point. And Orlando, by the way, last year, in teams I saw live, I saw, I don't even know, probably 26 teams live last year, I would bet. Orlando impressed me more than any team in the league defensively. And it was a game, it was an ABC game at Cleveland when Cleveland had that long winning streak. It was like 15 games or something. And Orlando snapped that streak. And they did it primarily because they just absolutely got up in Cleveland, who at the time was on a heater like you couldn't believe. Their efficiency was off the charts.

1:14:10They were averaging like 125 points in the previous 20 games. And Orlando completely got into them. And I was so impressed with how hard they played. So you're talking about top five defensive team. They, at no point against Philly, did they contain the basketball for the entire game. At every time you looked up, someone was getting beaten off the dribble on the perimeter. And then Philly just, the freedom and the freewheeling mentality, like up the floor, even after made baskets, they're throwing like one pass ahead. And Kelly Oubre just shoots a 28 footer with no thought to it. So all of these guys are clicking.

1:14:45It's set up by Maxie and the way Edgecombe has played. There's a, there's a spirit about this team in the city right now. Like these fans are flipping out over how fun they are to watch. And you know, you've had very little out of Embiid, nothing out of Paul George. And yet the fan base is almost taking the approach. and I know all these guys. I talk to these people that love the team all the time. They're just like, man, I don't even care anymore. This is a breath of fresh air to watch this. This group of dudes having fun, playing fast, so good offensively with this joy about them. And you still have these guys over there in street clothes.

1:15:22Everybody's got one eye on. But right now, they've been one of the best stories in the league to this point because of the way Edgecombe's played and the start that Maxie's had. Yeah, I was at the Dodger game for 100 hours last night, so I missed all the basketball. And I woke up this morning and had coffee, and I'm still a mess from the night before, but I was like, all right, I got to watch two fourth quarters, and I have time to watch one half. What am I going to watch? I was like, clearly I have to watch the second half of Philly or Orlando. I want to know what's happening. And I watched the whole Philly-Boston game last week too, is what you said.

1:15:56They're just pushing, pushing, pushing, and they have Maxie, who's basically like the craziest downhill running back in the league right now where he's just going and you can't stay. Nobody can stay in front of him. They flipped that Celtic game last week. I thought the Celtics had that game. We're going to win by 10. And Maxie just kind of brought them back, made crazy threes, just kept pushing, pushing, pushing. Then Vijay's in it. And they have this style that, not to be a dick, makes zero sense for Joel Embiid, the way they're playing. Like there's no, it's almost like they're two teams now.

1:16:29And maybe there's a way to kind of meld both of them. And maybe he plays like two 10 minute stretches each half, but he doesn't make sense with this team. And I don't, in a weird way, I agree with you. I know a lot of Sixers fans too. And all of them are like, I don't care. I love Vijay and Max. I don't really care what happens anymore. I just want to see these two guys. So they're going to navigate it. But I think they're clearly a playoff team with those two guys if they play like that. And I think what's going on right now kind of with their fan base is the lack of availability is just, it's just worn on them over years.

1:17:01And here's what, here's where the issue they're going to run into is going to be a problem for them. And you get a guy like Paul George, for instance. So this team's playing great, fast, fun. All these touches from Maxie and Edgecombe, you know, Quentin Grimes and Oubre are the next two guys. And they got all the freedom in the world. And now, okay, at some point, Paul George is going to play and Bede's going to be out there certain nights. Everything looks different. it bogs down more. Not that it beats not obviously more dominant player guys, an MVP in this league, but it slows everything down.

1:17:30It's less touches for these, for these fun, energetic guys that are putting up numbers. And in Paul George's case, I can't imagine like if this team, I don't even know when he's going to play or like what their record's going to be, but if their record's really good in this, he finally sees the court and all of a sudden it bogs down and he gives you, you know, a four for 12 or. Well, I didn't think the Philly fans will handle that. if he's slowing the game down. During the game, in real time, they're going to be turning on him. It's going to be a mutiny. It's going to be a mutiny. And now what happens is, I've seen this, because that's the city I lived in for so long.

1:18:05You go to these games, any of the sports teams in Philly, and you feel the heaviness being transferred onto the court from the stands. And now it becomes very difficult for that player to kind of navigate through that. and I'm worried for Paul George who I wouldn't say is incredible with adversity it's going to be a very interesting situation this is the best case scenario, everybody was kind of sitting back and waiting to see what was the start of the year here's what's crazy, Bill, you talk about all these over-unders, so went through 29 teams when I was doing mine and then I saved them for last because I said there's one team in this league whose range is 24 to 54.

1:18:51Right. It's the highest ceiling, lowest floor. It's like a 40 story building. You just have no idea. Yeah, it's incredible. I still think we still don't know that. It's been a great start, but at least it's more hopeful that if, because I'm thinking on that 24 was my thinking of it. B, you know, again, he gives you 25 games. Paul George hurt most of the year. They're going to do it again. 25 wins. But now I'm going, wait a second. If those guys do have those kinds of years physically. Now I look at this team and go, this style and this level of explosive firepower, they're going to hang in more games than they could have a year ago.

1:19:27And so they're going to win. They're going to win more games. So it's not going to be the worst case scenario for that team this year. I went through, uh, this edge cone thing is so unusual and so unexpected. I went there. I went basketball reference as a stat head where you can look up careers. And I was just looking up guards, 21 and under first year. How rare is it? Because in your head as the years passed, you're like, oh, Dwayne Wade must have been 25 a game that first year. He wasn't, but he was really good. He was impactful. But when you talk about guys coming in right away and being really good, just recently, Wade and Donovan Mitchell were the two that came in and were just immediately good and were 20 points a game guys and could run a little offense and do a lot of that.

1:20:11And were explosive and athletic. Jordan, obviously, Luka, obviously coming in, they were scoring. And then there's guys like Iverson and Ja and Stackhouse and Tyreek Evans that were putting up stats, but you wouldn't call them winning players. The VJ thing's different because he's a winning player who's also getting stats. It just jumps out immediately, jumped out in the tape from when he was in college, but now it's even better now where if he doesn't have the ball, he still knows what to do. He's still moving. He's still like, oh, maybe I can get a back cut. Maybe I can get an offensive rebound.

1:20:47This guy needs help. I'm going to go over there. He's just helpful in a way that I think is just so unusual for rookie guards. In my opinion, the Sixers fans cannot be excited enough about him. He's really special. If I was going to just share the text thread with all my friends, what you're saying is it doesn't even come close to how excited these people are about what they're seeing at Edgecombe. And Maxie, who's already, his popularity in Philadelphia is already through the ceiling. And a beloved guy the whole thing. They just love him. Yeah. I mean, it's just so easy to like him. And now on top of you, pair him with this guy.

1:21:22There's a couple things, Bill, that I see at Edgecombe that are really going to bode well in terms of just projecting. Like, is this real what we're watching? Yeah. And it's this. It's this. One, he has the ability to go from a very relaxed state with the ball to buy you in an accelerated state at like a level, like I'm not comparing him to Shea Gilgis-Alexander, but it's some of that where it's like all of a sudden he's relaxed. You're slightly relaxed defensively. And then when he decides to go, he goes. That first step in push and acceleration is buy guys or he's forcing you into such an overreactionary retreat.

1:22:02He can stop and make an 18-foot jump shot pretty easily. That's the first thing. That is a special God-given innate athletic quality. That's going to create separation for him all the time. That was young way to Miami that first year. That's a great, when just immediately you're like, wait, what's going on here? Why is this coming so easily to this guy? So anyway, what was your second thing? The second one is watch VJ Edgecombe when he shoots the ball, whether it's at the foul line, a three or something off the dribble, like a pull up, how strong and like intentional he is with, from basically his elbow to his fingertips.

1:22:38He is so strong with his follow-through and his wrist. Most young shooters come into the league, and because things are happening fast, faster than they've ever happened, they don't stay with their shot. And they flick it, and then their hand is down, and they're kind of like, and they didn't stay with it. And he has this ability, I guess, because he's just a mature offensive player. He's not phased by the speed of the game. so he is staying with his release better than most young players do and as a result he's making shots at a really high level right away to start his career even deep shots and mid-rangers contested shots because he's not affected by the pace of this game and that's very rare for a young guard to come into the league flag harper edgecomb one two three in the running for best one two threes we've had potentially because usually you hit two not three you don't have three in a row that are like, these guys can be all individually, it could be all NBA guys.

1:23:34And all three of them, I think, could be. Edgecombe, you know, I love that comparison game. I probably do too much, but it really does remind me of young Wade in a lot of ways, who I just thought, you know, as the years passed, Wade played all those big high-profile games. He got older. We saw these different versions of his career. But that early Wade, when like, even before Shaq got on the team, but then the first two Shaq years was just crazy. This episode is brought to you by Holiday Inn by IHG. If I'm ever traveling for work, where I stay is so important. I actually really care about this because sometimes I even have to do a podcast wherever I'm staying.

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1:24:50It's not just highlights, it's everything around the game, including the sports community. Find breakdowns of classic basketball plays, deep dives on baseball stats, even videos on how athletes train and recover. There are people teaching strategy, sports, history, even ways to improve your jump shot. It's kind of like the biggest locker room ever and everyone's sharing what they know on TikTok. Flipping this around to a sad topic. Is it Orlando panic time yet or is it just we got to figure out with the new guy? I don't like I like how Paolo's, and I actually, I watched the second half of the game last night.

1:25:26I watched some of their other stuff. I don't love how Paolo has played. I thought he was going to be a leap guy along the lines of what we're talking about with Maxie. Their bench just seems like it might suck, which is something that I think they thought was going to be good. And it's a relief, but the 136, I thought, was a major, major, major, major red flag. So what did you see? That was, I mean, they just got completely stripped down by the Sixers off the dribble. And that's not really something that's typical of that team. I'm not remotely panicking on Orlando yet. I agree with you. I had them as potentially, if this Bain thing hit, potentially with their defensive mindset, Bancaro and Wagner stay healthy all year, which last year they weren't.

1:26:09They both missed chunks of time. I thought, hey, man, the three seed's up for grabs. Orlando's in that mix to get the threes because I think New York, Cleveland are going to finish one too. I'd be surprised if they don't. Orlando Orlando's the next team now it hasn't been a great start the one thing that's been surprising their three point shooting was anemic last year it didn't give them a chance to win some nights flat out it was just so substandard for modern NBA and it's just not enough you know so there are some nights man despite the fact there's a great defensive team you got a couple of really good offensive forwards you're going to have to make like 13-14-3 some nights because that's what the other team required you to do.

1:26:50And they couldn't do that. So I thought, okay, not only is Bain directly going to improve that because he's going to make, you know, two, three a night, some nights he's going to get hot, make six, but because of his presence and the way you're now going to rotate to him, it's going to mean a little extra time for some of the mediocre to below average shooters they have on their roster that didn't have as much time. And I thought, well, that then they're also going to be better shooters. Bill, we're three games in or whatever, four games in. They're averaging on an average night eight for 27 from the three point line.

1:27:23That's worse than last year. It's like having a bad, it's like having a bad field goal kicker in football where you're just giving away. You're just minus six and field goals every game. And you can't, you have to make up the points somewhere else. I know that's a great point. And the other, the other it's another correlation because I love the NFL like you with the field goal kicking is not only that when field goal kickers miss and you give the other team the ball at their own 40. It's a big deal. And it starts to plant seeds of doubt in your head as a coach. Well, it's the same thing with these guys.

1:27:55Some of these misses are triggering breaks. They're triggering breaks the other way because they're not close. They're hitting the rim. There's a long remount. Especially a team like Philly that looks like a track relay team. The way that they're getting up and down the floor. I'm surprised at the Desmond Bain effect not being there right from the beginning. But I'm not even close to giving up on them. Some teams find their rhythm offensively first. Some teams find it defensively first. Orlando has not found the same rhythm and physicality defensively that they had a year ago yet. And I think you've got a new guy you're incorporating.

1:28:32Their offense will get better too. I'm concerned not panicking, but I don't understand why the defense isn't better. You have Minnesota tomorrow night. Yeah. I went to Minnesota Lakers Friday and had good seats and really was soaking it in. The Minnesota guard situation is a real thing. Conley being a year older, and you could feel it the last couple years anyway, but at some point, he's kind of moving into that Al Horford territory where it's like, all right, this is 60 games, 20 minutes a game, and you're going to have to make do. I just couldn't believe Bones Highland was playing over Dillingham, a guy that they gave up a real asset for, and it's year two, and I thought he had a couple moments last year.

1:29:16I thought Minnesota to me was a true contender, one of the six. I had them in there because they have, you know, top seven, top eight guy. They have size. They, you know, Randall's happy. They have a full year to put Randall and DiPicenzo together. The guard situation really left me, I left the game and I'm like, I'm actually nervous for that team because they're missing something. What do you, as you're preparing for the game tomorrow night, what are you seeing? I love this point about Dillingham. And look, I think, you know, there's a good chance we're not going to see, unfortunately, Anthony Edwards, Luka, or LeBron.

1:29:51So that takes a little luster off the game. Oh, God, can they flex? Is there a flex to buy that? I know, I wish, I wish. So it does take a little of the luster off of it. But the Dillingham point's important because I really liked him. I liked the move in acquiring him because there was such a need there. And so now you think about it, We're a year removed from coming out. And you're looking, you're four games in, he's played two games, six and a half minutes a game. And that tells me something I'm concerned about. Exactly. And I'm concerned, Bill, because when you have such a need at that spot and you still can't find a way to make that happen, that tells me that they're seeing something on a daily basis.

1:30:37I'm a little bit concerned now for what's Dillingham's future. now maybe he ends up maybe it's two years from now and he's on a team that's not as good getting a lot more run and that plays fast and now in the open court he's going to score and maybe we go okay Dillingham's going to be a filing fine NBA player whatever but in this situation you're going to get limited minutes it's a team that's contending they've been to two straight conference finals they want to get to the finals so everything is more scrutinized with their supporting cast and you can't quite crack that yet. I'm a little concerned about that.

1:31:13I actually think maybe the two most important players on their team are going to be DeVincenzo and Terrence Shannon Jr. Because those two guys have got to give them the supplemental offense they need consistently to be able to give them enough. Because their defense is going to be good enough, I believe. Of course, you've got Edwards. Randall's a little bit inconsistent. So where's that next infusion of offense going to come from consistently? DeVincenzo has to stay healthy. And it'll happen for him if he does. And then I think Terrence Shannon Jr. is one of those guys that you play in 15 minutes.

1:31:45He's damn near going to get double figures most nights because he's so aggressive and confident with his offense that maybe that can offset whatever they're not getting out of Dillingham. But I thought if I was going to see Dillingham right out of camp, being that guy that's getting you 18 to 20, 22 minutes some nights and playing very confidently and playing well, that's not the case here out of the gate. I'm a little concerned and I'll see for myself. If Anthony Edwards doesn't play, there's going to be more opportunity for him on Wednesday night. Let's see if Dillingham maybe does something to give me some hope.

1:32:14But right now, I'm not too hopeful how this is going to go for him this season. Doesn't look good. My thing is, maybe that draft was just bad. Sometimes we have that in football, too, where it's like the quarterback class. And then you look back at the quarterbacks, and it's like, Trubisky. It's like, oh, yeah. We were ranking all these guys against each other, none of them were that good. You think about that draft last year. Reed Shepard was third. Dillingham was eighth. Maybe it was just one of those weird draft years. I have another sad topic for you. We're almost done. I actually think, so the worst team of the last 30 years was the 2016 Sixers that went 10 and 72.

1:32:57Yep. There's a team that I think could challenge that and maybe be even worse. And I'm wondering if you're thinking of the same team I'm thinking. Well, there's only two teams. There's only, well, I don't know, man. I wouldn't put Washington in that category. So to me, then I think you're either talking about Brooklyn or New Orleans, right? It's one of those two. Oh, you'd go New Orleans. Wow, I wouldn't do that. New Orleans actually has some talent. Brooklyn's thing is, I don't see it at all. My thing with New Orleans was just if, like, Zion, something happens to them physically. Right. And where would they be?

1:33:36Where would it be from an organizational standpoint? So is it Brooklyn? Is that who you're talking about? Yeah. I think Brooklyn's just really awful. And I'm not sure what that draft was last year with all those picks, which didn't make sense when they happened. But a couple of those guys are... And I'm not even sure. You know, Agor, he seems okay. I'm not sure he could be running an offense. I just don't see it with them and I don't think they want to be good either and I'm just wondering like how bad are they going to be because they're not in these games like these games are over in the first quarter you took a and look they used all five picks which was I couldn't believe okay so but they did and four guards and their top two guys were two guards that foreign born and slightly built and are going to take time yeah so and it's way too early to know and I saw some nice things and it's just summer league it's the first time I laid eyes on these guys the gem and Trey or the first time I saw those guys I saw some nice things that I could like analyze out of them in summer league it's obvious that they weren't going to be ready at the start of the year to be major contributors like so who and when I say it takes time sometimes that time never gets here like we've seen guys it's like Poku it's going to take time It's not the league.

1:35:03No doubt about it. I mean, you could end up with like a Frank Nielakina on your hands. Like, you know, you're right. I'm seriously like, because it's a risk. There's a lot of risk there. And you're counting on your personnel evaluators to like think that you hit it. And even though, you know, they're not ready, but like, no, it's in there and hope they get it right. That's how that's risky to take all those guys. And now you're right. Look, you know, they Cam Thomas is going to shoot the ball as much as he wants every night. and Michael Porter Jr. is going to have more freedom than he had in Denver, but what is that going to amount to?

1:35:35Not a lot. So I agree. Look, I agree. Brooklyn's tough. And Washington, they're going to certainly lose their share of games, but there are guys I like watching. I want to watch some of those guys, particularly Trey Johnson, who was the most natural scorer I saw this summer. And I'm like, this dude is a bucket getter immediately in the NBA, and he's already doing that. Like 16 a game, 47%. He can flat out score. Yeah, they have a semblance of an identity. where they just have a lot of assets and a lot of guys who could create offense. And I understand what they're trying to do. They also probably don't want to make the playoffs, but it makes a little more sense.

1:36:10I was looking back at those early 90s seasons when there was a ton of talent, seeing if there was a really bad team. And I think the 92 or 93 Mavs went 11 and 71. And I thought that was notable because even when the bad team, like a team like Charlotte that I really like watching, It's probably my guilty pleasure league pass team. They have talent. Like they can go and just whack somebody 135 to 110, you know, and they're not a playoff team. So when you're a bad team and it's not just a good team's killing you, but then it's like, oh, Washington beat us by 18. Like that tells me you might be really bad.

1:36:48I think, I don't know, they're over under a 17 and a half right now. And I still think that's five wins too high. To me, they're like a 12, 10 to 12 win team. Yeah, it'll be in the teens. I agree. I thought it's funny you said that about Charlotte because, you know, we didn't we you and I didn't go over like our answers. We thought maybe this topic would come up like who's your guilty pleasure team that that is probably not going to be a great team. That's who I wrote down to. And the reason, honestly, more than anything else is I just think LaMelo Ball is incredibly entertaining. Like he's he's just he's just fun to watch.

1:37:19You never quite know what he's about to do, like trip by trip. and some nights that translates into incredible games, incredible satellites. You know, he makes some questionable decisions along the way, but one thing you're not going to get cheated on is entertainment value. Like I'm going to sit there after the next two and a half hours and this is going to be fun as hell. And I also, yeah, I really like Brandon Miller a lot. He hasn't really had kind of the start. I was hoping he'd have this year. Yeah. Yeah. He got banged up. Because of the injury. And I was thinking like, that's a, that's a guy right there that potentially this year, you know, he elevates himself into that 20, 20 point per game type category because I think he's got a lot of that in his game.

1:37:54They're fun, man. But can't stay on the floor, unfortunately. I don't know how many games they're going to win. I mean, I don't know. Are they going to get 30? You think they can get 30? You know, high 20s? Like, I don't know. High 20s, early 30s seems conceivable to me. The other one that's... LaMelo makes it worth it. Chicago is the other one for this. Oh, yeah. They're just fun to watch. And like, if I just gave you a list right now, Orlando, Philly, Detroit, Chicago, Atlanta, Toronto, and those teams are just in a tournament, they're all kind of around the same. I don't know if that's going to be the case in January, but all of them have strengths and weaknesses, and if they're all playing each other, I'm not surprised by any result with any of those six teams.

1:38:36That could change by January. And look at Chicago's start. This is really interesting here. So I kind of separated the East with kind of almost like different categories and groups of teams. So like I said a while ago, New York-Cleveland to me, clearly, I almost, I'm at, I'm almost feeling like if you don't get there this year, one of these two teams never happen. When will you? Like, that's kind of how I am with them. So they're clearly the top two. Then you've got like the wild card teams I would describe. And Philly and Milwaukee would be in that category for me. Like they've got... I'm pro Milwaukee, as you know.

1:39:08Oh, yes. You are. You're pro Milwaukee. I don't know where you had them ranked kind of prediction going into the season of where you thought their seeding would be. I thought... I thought they were a 47 range team. That's about where I had them. And so I've got, and I put Philly in that category with them because they've got veteran guys, like superstar names. If it hits, things could go really well. Now, then you had the next group of teams, which is the most interesting to me. Detroit, Orlando, and Atlanta. I think they're all kind of grouped together. Like there's real estate to be grabbed in the Eastern Conference.

1:39:47It's so funny. We didn't talk about this. I saw this the exact same way. I had those three way closer together. Put them right there together, right? And I'm going, you know, young talent. There's real estate available in the Eastern Conference because of what Boston and Indiana are dealing with. It's there for you. Guess what? Chicago, right out of the gate. 3-0. You know who they've beaten? Detroit, Orlando, and Atlanta. So, I mean, look, I don't know what this is going to look like. They finished the year 15-5, okay? They finished the year 15-5 last year. Get into the play-in. With good net rating and all kinds of offense, defense stuff.

1:40:24That was really favorable. And were just horrific in the play-in game, like offensively. And they're going to go home. But still, they kind of took the confidence builder into the summer, the way they finished. And here you go. Out of the gate, you get these three teams that you and I just described as potentially could have been 3-4-5 in the East if things broke. And they come right out of the gate. Bang, bang, bang. They clip all three of them off. I don't know. I don't know what this is going to ultimately mean for Chicago, but what an impressive start to take those three teams that you and I both categorized in the same group and knock them all off.

1:40:57And I had Detroit third in that group. I was, I was a little more down on Detroit than most. I watched the fourth quarter of the Bulls last night. I would have watched more of it if I'd been home. Fuzelas, stuff's happening with that. And there was a lot of signs, a lot of breadcrumbs during the summer. He said all the right things. He did all the right things and looks like a different, player and is actually like creating his own stuff. And I actually liked their finishing five. I think it's, I think it's, I don't know, offensively hard to stop. They're going to have submissions on defense, but that was, he might be a leap guy.

1:41:30Kamingo is another one on golden state that I just seems better than he was last year. And Kessler on Utah was another one that jumped out to me. It's like, he just seems better. Like he went up a level before we go. You got to do on Ryan Rollins is my favorite random dude. I just want to get that on the record I just want to buy some Ryan Rollins talk before we go you had a referee trend you wanted to hit I just want to talk a little bit about what we're seeing here early and I don't know how it'll all shake out we'll revisit this periodically as we do this together this year and see how it's changing I think some of these numbers are incredible to me first of all, everybody's taking notice we've had four guys get 50 in the first week of the season four, four and three of which like I said very unlikely that they would do that.

1:42:16Free throws play a big part in that, except for Aaron Gordon, who made 10 threes. So it took that kind of shooting performance, or you got to get to the line a ton, and all these guys did it. Mark it in, Austin Reeves, Shea. But listen to some of these numbers, Bill. A week into the season, there are 27 teams in the league committing more fouls per night, per game, than the league leader last year. Really? Yeah. The league leader last year was like, whatever it was, like 23 fouls a game. There's 27 teams committing more fouls than that a week into the season. That, to me, just blew my mind. There's a couple more that just, you don't want to overwhelm people with data, but these are just amazing.

1:43:04There are 10 teams right now, 10, averaging 30-plus free throw attempts a game. You know how many did it last year? None. Yeah, I was going to say, it's like the high last year was like 26, 27 range. Denver was like the league leader, like the 23 range or something. I think it was, whatever. But there's 10 teams. And then one more. Right now, there are 11 players taking 10 plus free throws a game. Oh my God. That's like Giannis territory. Last year, one. Giannis Antetokounmpo was the only player in the league last year. There are 11 guys averaging 10 or more free throws. I called a game that had 93 free throws in it.

1:43:45So, and no, here's my point with it, Bill. This will be the last thing we talk about this. I actually think it's because of the lack of discipline defensively. I am seeing more guys slap at guys unnecessarily on the drive, going for every head fake in the world, like they're going to block a jump shot. How many guys now are going to that little mid-range step back, up fake, the Shea, the Luka, the Trey Young, but more guys are doing it now. Austin Reeves is great at it. yeah maxi's doing it this year and they're and guys are just going for it every time they're falling for the bait closeouts on three pointers and recklessly fouling guys fouling guys at the rim rather than making it make a tougher shot over a contested hit so i actually think most of the whistles i've seen in the two games i've called have been justified i'm not seeing replays where i go man are they calling it tight tonight no i'm seeing guys that are careless and reckless and undisciplined defensively, and it's leading to these incredible scoring outbursts and the types of numbers I'm talking about.

1:44:46Now, obviously, that's not going to stay there. You're not going to have 27 teams commit more fouls than the league leader last year. It's going to come back. It'll deviate back to the norm a little bit, but that just puts into perspective what we have seen a week into the season. It's been a whistle after whistle after whistle, and most of it, I think, is the fault of the defense. I'm not blaming the officials. Well, it might tie into what we talked about at the start of our conversation, which there's so much talent now. People are just harder to guard. It seems like every team has two or three guys that are really hard to stay in front of.

1:45:17The only thing I've noticed from, obviously, Conspiracy Bill, who I don't know if you know that well, but it's honored to be here today. The only thing I've noticed, there's a specific call that it feels like everybody is getting now, especially the guards. And Maxie would lead the league in this, but SGA has been getting it forever. It's this drive where they're parallel with a guy going to their strong hand, or sometimes even their weekend, but strong hand, and shoulder to shoulder where they just go up and they make contact on the shoulder. And I feel like for whatever reason, every single player is getting that call this year.

1:45:54And I've specifically noticed it. So when you said you want to talk about a ref trend, I thought you were talking about that. But it's almost like they said to themselves, SGA gets this call all the time. We now have to give this to Maxie and Austin Reed and name every other guard, but I feel like everybody's getting that call. I don't know if that's intentional or not. Well, I agree with that. When you're doing your game tomorrow. I will. And that call is prevalent. I know exactly the play you're talking about. It's mostly going to your right hand, down the lane, and it's a little bit of a bump with your shoulder into their chest.

1:46:25And then you kind of almost veer off sideways and just throw it up and you get the whistle. And you hope to get the bank for the three-point play, but you usually don't because you had to whip it. It's just, it's an epidemic. Well, you know, the one thing that they told us was going to be the point of emphasis this year was they're really going to watch the high five contest because they felt like guys were getting out of control with it and taking advantage too much and there's too much contact on the hand. Or there was a swipe down and a follow through hitting guys on the forum. They want to protect the shooters to a higher degree.

1:46:53Ironically, in the two games I've called, I've only seen that even come up a couple of times. So that's not even really played into these calls. most of them are on reach-ins and grabs and slaps when you're out of position and guys are driving down the lane about to gather to go up to shoot and you're seeing that help defender reach in and they're not in position to make the play and they're carelessly reaching in and hitting guys on the arm that's been to me the majority of the whistles I've seen particularly on the scorers so let's see what happens going forward I'll certainly be watching for all this stuff in my game Wednesday night Well, now that you're a semi-regular on this podcast and the ringer, you get 45 seconds to complain about your NFL team.

1:47:40So I'm just going to offer you. I'm just going to give you. Your favorite team is the Washington Commanders. And your season's already over. So go ahead. Take the floor. It's just so painful because, first of all, I wasn't emotionally ready for the leap they made last year. I usually got to build up to that over a few years. And I just wasn't ready. Next thing you know, here I am. I'm sitting in my man cave at my house, watching them in the NFC Championship going, I can't believe that this is happening right now. And of course, we get annihilated in that game. But regardless, you're thinking, okay, we drafted the right guy.

1:48:12Jane Daniels is the one. And I love the moves. Adam Peters, Dan Quinn, Kingsbury, I'm all in on all of it. And it's just gone all completely off the rails, man. Our season between injuries and just not making plays at key times in the game that need to be made. this is where we're at man three and five with seattle detroit we're staring at three and seven with all these injuries and the mclaren holdout i think completely derailed his season he immediately got hurt you think that's a coincidence the guy doesn't have really training camp and all of a sudden he signs right before the first game and he has barely played this year and that really really affected everything um jayden's been hurt twice it's just a long conference study by the way studying NBA and NFL contract holdouts.

1:48:58It happened to Trey Murphy last year. He was waiting for an extension and then came back and was basically hurt for the first half of the year. But I always feel like there's always a stink from not being out there and not being part of the training camp process. It seems to have caught like 16 touchdowns last year, including the playoffs. And he caught his first one last night against the chiefs. And I was at the game, went to Arrowhead for the first time, by the way, what an awesome experience just because it's just old school football town and that stadium. And it's just a really, really cool vibe, even though, um, you know, we, we obviously didn't play very well.

1:49:30And I say, we, a lot, by the way, do you say we, when you talk about the teams, you love? I sure do. I sure do. I unapologetically can't help it. Yeah. I'm saying way it's on that. I am that emotionally invested in that team. Um, so I'm kind of, yeah, I'm dejected and down. There's nothing worse than when this, the team that you love the most, whether whatever sport you kind of feel like it's just, they're not going to be in it this year. I'm only at the halfway point of the season. That just sucks because it just changes your anticipation when you open your eyes on Sunday morning. It's just different.

1:50:02You had a lot of like fourth down luck last year. Yeah. You had a lot of things go your way. You had some injury luck. And then they had an older team that I was suspect. I went under on them this year because I thought it was the year after the big year. Schedule's harder. Schedule's way tougher. You have all these old players. it's always hard to rely on those guys to stay healthy. But what's interesting is it's really hard to find seven NFC playoff teams even if your seventh is San Francisco who just lost their two best defensive players, right? And they might be able to hang around and try to get to a nine and eight.

1:50:38You know, maybe nine and eight is a seven seed. So even if it looks bleak, they could go three and seven. But you still, if you can get to nine wins, I think you get to the dance with a good quarterback. man. That would be the only thing. Nice thing. I would say if they get to three and seven and they've got to play the Eagles two out of the last three games of the year. I don't know, man, how we're getting to nine wins. Maybe the Eagles don't care about the last game. No, that's possible. That's you're always kind of hoping that's the case, but I don't know. I have a feeling in the NFC this year.

1:51:06I think they're going to have to play through the wire to get home field advantage, whoever, whoever it may be. So I think these guys are good. No one's really separated. So I think, I think they're going to have to play all the way through the wire, which is not great to play them two out of the last three games of the year. So do you, now I have to ask you another question. Do you follow the NFL the same way you follow the NBA where you're like deep into the data and you're studying shit or do you just follow it like a fan and don't think about that stuff? I follow it in terms of, I kind of feel like I know like the whole league, but no, like in terms of like metrics and trends and like all that, not as much.

1:51:39And even in the NBA, and I think you'll see this when you see me call a game and you've known me a long time. I definitely feel like I try to just really pick those numbers sometimes that are really good for the context of this conversation and not just kind of keep spitting them out, regurgitating them, because I think people tune you out. So I kind of very selective when I'll throw those kind of numbers out there when I think it really pounds home a point that matters. The NFL, no, I just I absolutely love watching professional football. I'm just addicted to watching the NFL. I love it so much.

1:52:13even when my team is struggling or not good. All those years from 91 when we won our last Super Bowl to being good again with a 30-year drought. I watched every snap of every game, even at the end of like a 4-12 season. I was still watching every play of the last game of the year because I just love football that much. That's me. Well, I like how you do it with the NBA because I think you have the right instinct for it. Have the data, but it can't be too much of the act, right? You got to pick the accessibility of the numbers. Because I think, you know, we saw it happen in baseball and they really struggled with it.

1:52:50In basketball, it's a little bit of a seesaw aspect with the advanced metrics. I think people tune it out if it gets too confusing. But there is some really important shit, right? That like Orlando's three-point shooting, all those numbers last year. That was really meaningful. Like they had to fix that. So, you know, there is some really good stuff. Real quick before we go, I got one in the NFL. I want to get some research to this. Maybe it's already out there. I didn't look. Commanders had a holding penalty on first down on a drive last night. It started them at first and 20. And I turned to my buddy who came to the game with me and I said, I really want to know what's the punt rate on possessions that start with a holding penalty.

1:53:29I want to know. I want to know what the punt rate is of those possessions because it's a credit because there's nothing more punitive. You feel like the series is over. There's nothing more punitive than a first down holding penalty. Yeah. It's seriously, it's like 10 yards. It's just, you know, so it happened last night and I was just wondering in my head. I don't know what the data says out there as opposed to like normal possessions where you don't get that, but I guarantee it's significantly higher because we had it last night and of course we punted three plays later. I'm sure somebody has that.

1:54:01I had it last year at the Patriots where they held on, I think, 50 % of the first downs they had last year. It felt like that anyway. Uh, Tim Legler, a true pleasure. I'm glad we're going to do this all season. Good luck tomorrow night calling a game with not as many stars as maybe they thought five weeks ago, but, uh, it's great to see you. Thanks for doing this. Thanks Bill. Appreciate it. All right. That's it for the podcast. Thanks to Tim Legler. Thanks to Gajal and Eduardo as well. Don't forget new rewatchables Halloween too. It's up. You can go check it out. Uh, I'm going to be back on this feed on Thursday with some football and some basketball and maybe even a little baseball.

1:54:38Let's see what happens in this World Series. We'll see how it goes. See you on Thursday.

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