Why a Weird NBA Season Finally Went Full Weirdo On Us, With Tim Legler

21:28Tim Legler:Now they've got a playoff series went under their belt. That should make things a lot different. I'm talking about beating teams that can come close to looking you in the eye, right? That's different. Winning four times against them when you've got no experience in doing that collectively and you've got a bunch of young guys, you don't know how certain guys are going to react when they get into that situation. And guys that are giving you that little burst and punch now and giving ice to help you, well, it's a fine line between those same players having a 30 % shooting series. And now it's like really tough, man.

22:00Tim Legler:Those minutes that were so great in the regular season, it's harder now with particular groups because certain guys are really struggling in the playoffs for a variety of reasons. And so that's why I think there is a lot of uncertainty with that second tier of teams that are trying to crack through and make us believe like they could be a conference finalist or a finalist like that next group beyond the top two or three. That's when it gets a lot more interesting, this conversation.

22:25Bill Simmons:Well, there's even a couple of teams in that one B group where I watch like the Celtics had a really interesting game against the Pistons last week. And one of the things that was happening was they were just like, we're just not going to guard Thompson. good luck. Ironically, that's also happening in some of the Houston games where teams are going, yeah, we're just like, no, good luck. We're going to let him go. And in a playoff series, when you're playing the same team, seven games, that's the stuff that starts pulsating. Like Detroit and the Celtic game found something against Garza. They just started attacking him.

22:57Bill Simmons:Not so coincidentally, like all of a sudden, Amari Williams is in the Celtics rotation. Garza didn't play last night. Like maybe he was hurt. I don't know. But it was one of those moments where was like, shit, I don't know if we can play Garza in the playoffs here because Detroit's just like feasting on him in these five minutes. And that's the kind of stuff you tuck away for later. The other thing is like, when I think about teams like the Knicks, Minnesota, whoever, like if you have a top eight player, I'm just, you're on my, I'm taking you seriously list, no matter how you're looking over this stretch.

23:28Bill Simmons:I do want to see you put together like one nice 15 to 20 game stretch though during the season, which I think we'll talk about the Clippers in a second, but like. the Clippers going 15-3 in 18 games is meaningful. Like, this is... No kidding. They reclaim their corners.

23:42Tim Legler:Still amazed at the number of conversations that I'm having here over the last couple of weeks, whether in the industry or outside the industry, just like basketball fans that are friends of ours, right? They're just not remotely convinced that you better take notice. Because they're not just winning. that, you know, when you go, whatever they were, 6-21 at the start, I guess maybe people just completely think, I don't have to watch the Clippers anymore the rest of the year. We do. It's our job. So you're still paying attention. They start winning some games. You're like, okay, that's interesting.

24:16Tim Legler:15-3, 18 games in basically a five to six week period of time when their defensive numbers have shifted to this extent is something you have to pay attention to. They have held teams in that 18-game stretch 11 times to 105 points or less. 105 in today's NBA, right, is like 90 when I played. Like, that's what it feels like. If you hold a team under 110 points, it's like, you know, wow, they really got after it tonight. They just did it 11 times in the last 18 games. And it reminds me of what they were doing last year defensively when I called a few of their games and I was so impressed with their ability to pressure the ball all over the floor and their length and their quickness to recover for each other.

25:02Tim Legler:And of course, and Kawhi was healthy most of that time. They're back to playing that level defense and they're getting incredible offensive years out of their two best players. So how can you not notice? And it's like, it's also like, it's like a string of wins that they're getting. Like these are some good teams that they've knocked off. So I'm, listen, I've got one eye on them at all times now. This Ascension, and you think about what I'm talking about. They've only gotten to 10th. I mean, that's how far they were buried. you went 15 out of 18 and you're still 10th that's where they were

25:35Bill Simmons:13 to 1 to win the division yeah their last 18 they're plus 8.9 per 100 they're 4th in the league but you mentioned Kawhi he's averaging the last 18 he missed 2 he played 16 he's averaging 32 in the games that he played and he's 51-43-92 and looks like Kawhi I mean eye test wise this is 2017 Kawhi it looks like so So anyway, we'll take a break and then we're going to go through the power pole because we have a lot of stuff to cover. The Bill Simmons podcast is brought to you by FanDuel. It's the last call for football on FanDuel. It makes me so sad. One final Sunday, one last kickoff, the final chance to place your bets before the NFL season closes its tab.

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26:55Bill Simmons:Game problem call 1-800-GAMBLER. visit rg-help.com. Call 1-888-789-777 or visit ccpg.org slash chat in Connecticut. All right. So I separated in groups. We'll just rip through this group. I want to talk about one team. And if there's a team in this group you're excited about, flag it after. All right. Number 30 is Washington. They have the worst net rate. They're minus 11, one and nine in their last 10. I think they've settled into, we want to stink. We want to get top four pick. Number 29, I have Milwaukee. This is no Giannis Milwaukee. He's not playing for another six weeks. I actually think their 2-12 is the worst 2-12 in the league.

27:36Bill Simmons:I wanted to get your take on that. I don't think any other team in the league would trade their 2-12 for Milwaukee's 2-12.

27:45Tim Legler:I mean, I think for that particular question, if I really wanted to just give you definitive answer, I would probably need to right now pull up two through 12 on four or five different things. But my point is this, you're not crazy for throwing out into the conversation. Yeah. I mean, look at the roster.

28:01Bill Simmons:It's brutal.

28:02Tim Legler:It's, it's, it's brutal. It's, and, and, and you look at what's happening to them now. Like when you combine the roster with now the level, like what they're dealing with psychologically, not having him. And the one differentiating factor for your team every night is having that force and not having that combined with that roster. I think you probably have put them appropriately where they belong as long as he's out.

28:26Bill Simmons:So they, the biggest wrinkle with them is they get the worst of the first pick between them and New Orleans. So in a weird way, if the season goes south and they end up being one of the eight worst teams, it's not the worst thing in the world. But what's killed them is, I don't think they could trade Giannis. Zach did a thing on his podcast yesterday with Mo about, is this actually still okay that they could trade Giannis or did this make this impossible and not really landing either way. I'm more in the, I don't know who's trading for him with all this stuff you'd have to give up, not knowing if he's going to even be back in April.

28:59Bill Simmons:Plus, he's had this injury multiple times. To me, it's a complete stay away. I'll revisit in the summer. Show me you're healthy. I can't see anyone doing that. Do you agree with that?

29:09Tim Legler:First of all, that would be the approach I would take. I'm not saying I wouldn't want to try to acquire Giannis Antetokounmpo, but with the number of times now that he's been dealing with this injury and me needing to see like this motivated Giannis in the summer, healthy Giannis in the summer. Yes, I think there are teams that you do what you have to to make a run at him. I kind of agree with the uncertainty right now of when you're going to see him again at full strength and the possibility because, you know, it's going to be tight then with the playoffs. Is he going to be coming back, like forcing himself onto the court because he wants to make a run with some team?

29:43Tim Legler:And does that mean he ends up re-injuring himself in the playoffs anyway? and you've given up a ton. Now, if you've got more of a longer-term view and it's not just about trying to get it done this year, I don't know, maybe you do it anyway because he's just so intriguing because of how dominant he is and I think how highly motivated he would be with a change of scenery and what that could do to reinvigorate him. I would still think about it.

30:07Bill Simmons:I'm going to thought bubble this for you. Would you trade for anybody about to hit their mid-30s who is a big guy with a lot of miles in them with all the evidence that we've seen at this point? Would you give up the farm? What are the success stories here? Like even KG, when the Celtics got him in 08, and he's probably 31, he broke down a year later. Chris Weber, Dwight Howard broke down a bunch of times. Shaq, he started to have the injuries in the mid-2000s. I would just get really nervous about trading for big guys with miles. And there's been a couple outliers. And then when you go smaller and you get to like the LeBron size, there's probably more success.

30:47Bill Simmons:But the taller guys, I don't know. I'd be really nervous to do it. To me, the Giannis, if they were like, hey, no, he's going to be back in late March. You should trade for him. It's like somebody offering you the nicest car ever. And it's like, it was just in the shop for the seventh time. But it's going to be great. The mechanic said he fixed this one thing we have. You should get it. It'll be awesome.

31:09Tim Legler:I'm staying in that garage. I'm looking at that car for a long time. Man, this is a nice car. How fast does it go? The only thing they're not going to let you do is test drive it, though. That's the problem. You just got to buy as is. It's an as is contract.

31:22Bill Simmons:They're showing you clips of the 2021 race that it won. It was going 220 miles an hour. Beat all these guys.

31:29Tim Legler:And meanwhile, you're on the side, like, Googling Carfax, trying to get that report. You know, the commercial with the cute fox that we see all the time. Like, I'm going to go to that website. What's that, you know? And, yeah, so that's a good point. but I'm telling you, I'd be looking at that car for a while trying to make up my body.

31:47Bill Simmons:I'd put it to sleep on that decision. Yeah, if you're Atlanta, you've never been in a race. That's the thing. You're like, all right, maybe this is our one chance to get him. Okay. Number 28, Brooklyn. Number 27, Sacramento. They both basically have 12 wins. Number 26, Indiana, who I think is a noble 11 and 36 team. Man. I actually think they play hard and give a shit and they just don't have enough talent, sadly.

32:12Tim Legler:Has any player, like, I don't know, earned more respect on an 11-win team than Pascal Siakam? Right. Every night, and I watch the Pacers a lot, just because, I don't know, the guys on that team I'm kind of interested in, so I watch the Pacers a good amount. I like them too. And I love watching Siakam play. Yeah. And I'm watching this guy, and if you had no idea, when you turn it on to watch the game, you had no idea what their record was, what's going on. I'm like, you're just like watching this guy that looks exactly like he did when he was playing for Toronto and they won a championship, exactly like he did last year.

32:47Tim Legler:The last two years with Indiana, last year going to the finals, like you don't know there's any difference in his demeanor, approach, effort, intensity, like all leadership, like all of that stuff. And it's led to 11 wins. Like that's how decimated they've been. But I've got a lot of respect for the way he's carried himself this season.

33:05Bill Simmons:McConnell's another one, Nembhard. There's guys on that team that are still carrying themselves like they did last spring. And at some point, they're going to have to take Pascal for a nice steak and explain to him that his calf needs some maintenance and he might need to take four to five weeks off. That the trainer was mildly concerned and it's just, for the safety of everybody, we're just going to have to sit you for a little bit and get you ready for next year. We're almost there with the Pacers because this will be a miracle. You throw away one year, you get Halliburton back next year and you could potentially get a top five pick.

33:37Bill Simmons:But here's the thing.

33:37Tim Legler:Here's the one thing I'll say about them.

33:39Bill Simmons:Yeah.

33:41Tim Legler:You think about how quickly they immediately reemerge on the scene of relevant teams as soon as they get Halliburton back, okay? They desperately need a five. And there's a list of them. There's eight or nine of them that are out there. Some are more interesting than others. Some I don't think you can get, but there's a list out there and you can pull it up just about anywhere of the number of centers that are like kind of at least their names come up. Some I think it's absolutely pipe dream. You're never going to get them. some I wouldn't want. And then there's a few when you kind of go, man, if you can add that with giving up what they would have to give up to get it and now next year you go in with Siakam and Halliburton and a five that fits your style.

34:23Tim Legler:Man, that's something I think that they're going to look hard at and I'll be very surprised actually if they don't make a move before the trading deadline to try to acquire one of those centers. So you think they would put their number one pick on the table? I don't know if they'd put their number one pick, I think there's internal conversations that are probably taking place because that's beauty, that's, you know, beauty in the eye of the beholder. If you think that, for instance, you know, those top three picks, which a lot of people are talking about are absolute can't misses, the Bonsa, Peterson, Boozer.

34:55Tim Legler:If you think all three of those guys are, man, these are franchise guys and we're going to be in that mix, you probably don't do that. If you think, hey, man, there's a chance we don't want to get into top three and we don't know that we love it after that, even though I think it's a good draft class And I think there's going to be even diamonds in the rough found probably, you know, 15 through 25. It always is. They would, does that young player, like, does that serve them? Well, that's going to take a few years for him to hit a stride when they were so close a year ago, as opposed to, I'm not talking about picking up a 34 year old center.

35:26Bill Simmons:If you can get a guy about like Jaron Jackson, like we'll discuss Jaron Jackson, but we want your unprotected first.

35:32Tim Legler:Even a guy, even a guy like it, you know, a lower level, maybe a lower caliber player than that, like a Nick Claxton, like somebody like that, like that's young, that runs, that you don't have to run plays for, that can defend, that will fit your style and pace because he's got stamina. Like a guy like that, if you're talking about giving up, not the number one pick, if you're talking about giving up something else on your roster, that they would be, it would be intriguing to them either because it could be a salary dump or it's a... Or you get to a top five protected.

36:03Bill Simmons:Exactly. Like we'll trade whatever but we need top five protection or you get our next year's thing. Yeah, we'll see. Because what I like about them and the Celtics losing their best guys, but somehow keeping some sort of infrastructure of what they had last year, the Celtics did it more successfully. But when you watch Indiana, they don't stink. They might be overmatched some nights, but they do play like they did last year. So I have them 26. New Orleans, I have 25. They're 12 and 36. All these teams have 12 or 11 wins that we just rattled off. I want to flag New Orleans really quickly, though, because I think they're a sneaky, important trade machine team.

36:44Bill Simmons:Not just because Zion, I think every team in the league probably has had a Zion meeting at this point. Let's just do a one hour. Bob is going to do a Zion presentation for us. We're going to go through the pros and cons. They're all doing it. Murphy, they've tried to make it seem like they wouldn't trade him. I refuse to believe that. I think they're playing it smartly, but if somebody's going to give them the Bain Bridges offer, it would be irresponsible not to do it. But then they have Missy at 3.3. They have Sadiq Bey at 6.1 and 6.4 the next two years. They have Alvarado at 4.5. They have Looney at 8 expiring.

37:21Bill Simmons:They have some fun little levers to push for contenders. I look like Alvarado. There's five teams that he would just be fun on in the playoffs, right? But you put him on the Pistons and he would just be like, I am rolling up my sleeves. Who are we fighting? You know, so I don't know what they're going to do, but I feel like we'll be hearing from them.

37:41Tim Legler:And Macy's also one of those guys on that short list of centers that would be intriguing for Indiana.

37:45Bill Simmons:Right.

37:46Tim Legler:I think, well, and especially with Derek Queen there, you know, they obviously Macy becomes completely expendable in that situation. Here's the thing. Like, I agree with you with what you said about Trey Murphy. I mean, look, I love him, but, but I don't know, you know, they, they, they want to make it seem like there's nothing that you can offer me that would get him i don't know if i believe that i know this like when it comes to zion like and they seem like the stuff they put out there is like no no we're you know we're committed to zion i don't know that i would be willing to give up anything to get him i just i'd be far too concerned to give up a lot of stuff of value for zion williamson with his track record and the the part of his game that drives me nuts um because he's such a unique force and talent entertaining as well how's the guy get six

38:29Bill Simmons:rebounds a game i mean i love this this is one of my corners i mean partly started this you can't

38:35Tim Legler:get two rebounds a quarter rebounds a game when you're built like that with that kind of athleticism yeah there's one reason and one reason only you don't go off it enough it's that simple it's that simple if and and particularly for zion williamson particularly look at his career uh he had 2.7 offensive rebounds his first two seasons in the league you know obviously not a a ton of games, but he's never been since then, like over 2.5. To me, that's a guy that should be three and a half to four offensive rebounds a game. And if you watch him play, the reason it doesn't happen, Zion's that guy that if there's a shot by somebody else and he happens to be anywhere from the third hash up the lane to the foul line, you're 12 to 15 feet from the rim.

39:17Tim Legler:Very rarely does Zion Williamson go. He starts immediately backpedaling. And it's so that it just tells you it's a mentality. because the mentality is if I go and don't get it, damn, that's a long run to the other end of the floor. And that's the impression I get. As talented as he is and as just like unique in what he can do and how difficult he is to deal with when he's healthy and playing right, that has always bothered me. I've never understood. I think he is one of the most underachieving rebounders in the NBA. and it doesn't make sense to me because there's no way that guy should not be getting a ton of double-digit rebounds games.

40:01Tim Legler:You mean double-digit rebounds games? He's, think about this, double-digit rebounds game. Now, the last two he's had, 10 and 11 against San Antonio and Memphis. You have to go back to October 24th to find his last 10-rebound game. That's incredible to me. When you look at a guy like Josh Hart, right it's like that doesn't make any sense and it's so it's just like that combined with the injury history i'm just like i don't know if i'd want any part of it do you also made the case why

40:33Bill Simmons:you would want a part of it if you felt like you had a good team with a good coach and a good infrastructure and you could kind of shove him in the correct directions that's how you talk

40:41Tim Legler:yourself into this i got news for you you could put him on any team in history with whatever direction you want and if that guy doesn't want to run to the rim from 12 feet when someone takes of corner three, he ain't never gonna. Like, that's not about infrastructure and leadership in the locker room and, like, accountability. That guy either wants to or he doesn't, and he has now played 240, which I don't believe will actually, only 246 games in six years. It's kind of incredible. He's got 246 games under his belt, and I don't recall really anything. So you're going with that he is who he is.

41:15Bill Simmons:Interesting. Well, if you cut him a mixtape of Vijay Edgecombe and Hugo Gonzalez being in the corner, seeing somebody about to shoot and veering toward the rim at full speed to just see if they can get a hand on anything. Maybe the light bulb would click for them. Hey, you could also do this. Watch how these guys just move because somebody else was shooting. They might be able to dunk it or get a rebound.

41:40Tim Legler:I would, listen, I would.

41:41Bill Simmons:The ship has sailed, you think?

41:43Tim Legler:I pray for that day because of how much I've enjoyed watching Zion Williamson play when he's healthy. it's just a long track record of that one particular thing you can be a real difference maker on the glass it's a major majorly important quality to bring to finishing off defensive possessions to giving your team extra possessions on a given night they're so critical to do those things on nights when maybe you don't shoot well or for him I'm also thinking you get another two three offensive rebounds some nights that's that's a guaranteed probably with his quickness off his feet that's another you know four to six points and plus some of those might be and ones like just from your own production you could take your scoring average up five points if you just wanted to go more and so that's that what that's my big concern with zion his name's always going to come up because he's so intriguing and i just think we're six years in and i think you know when you're on a team that's got the worst record in the nba and you've been out a lot again this year and the rebounding numbers are what they are i think add all that up i don't know i don't know

42:47Bill Simmons:See, that's the case you just made is my case for why I'm not crazy about Jaron Jackson. He's 5.7 rebounds a game. You're 100 % right.

42:57Tim Legler:I've said that on the air when I've called Memphis games. I haven't called a New Orleans game this year for obvious reasons, but we did call a Memphis game. And it's the same thing. I think the same way. Why are his rebounding numbers not better? Now, the one thing, though, I will say this. he does do this and this can cost him maybe some defensive rebounds challenging exactly right when your last line of defense and you're trying to get most things at the rim you are bypassing opportunities to rebound by doing that yeah that's fair but here's the thing a guy like jaron jackson and zion and i'm not sure if i watch the new orleans game tomorrow night does zion is i on the inside slot every every opponent's free throw is jaron jackson how does that not free a game?

43:42Bill Simmons:Westbrook figured that out 12 years ago.

43:44Tim Legler:Right there, you're halfway to their current total.

43:47Bill Simmons:Like, right.

43:48Tim Legler:So you don't mean it's like, how does that, how does that not translate to a, so I agree. Jared Jackson has always scratched my head, but the all around game, you know, the all around amount of energy he's expending defensively at that. I'll give him a little bit more of a pass than Zion.

44:03Bill Simmons:You know what I would say, Tim Legler, some guys are just good at rebounding. Even when you play like pickup or when you play in high school or in your case, college and the pros, some guys just have a knack for it. He's six foot three. He just goes and gets rebounds. He knows where they're going to go. Derek White's really good at it. Weirdly, as a guard, just can study the patterns. He has good instincts for it. Some guys just suck at it. Finishing the dregs, Utah 24 and Memphis 23 at 18 and 26. I just don't think it's going to happen for them and we can move to the next group. this group is a one-team group.

44:39Bill Simmons:It's called Panic Time. And I put Orlando in here at 22. Even though they have a winning record, their net rating is minus 0.6. Their last 25 games, Legs, they're 11 and 14. They're 25th in net rating. And I test-wise, I have a real problem with this team. And we talked about, I don't want to throw Jamal Mosley under the bus, but we talked about some of the great coaches we've added. This is a team that, to me, does not look well coached. I don't know what they're doing. I don't understand it. I think the effort comes and goes. They just seem like the ball finds the wrong person at the wrong times and the wrong spots of the game, and I think they're incredibly frustrating to watch.

45:24Tim Legler:Here's why I don't know if I can go with the coaching thing for this reason. Last year, and again, I called an Orlando game this year, to see him in person is definitely different for me as an analyst. I pick up on a lot of stuff that I can't see when I'm watching on TV at home. But look, they just lost four straight games by a total of 75 points, I believe. Wagner's out again. Him and Vaccaro barely have had any chance to establish rhythm. But here's why the coaching thing would be bothersome to me if that were true. because last year I had as much respect for the way that that team competed and defended as anybody in the league.

46:05Tim Legler:I mean, when I watched the Magic play, and I watched them, and I called games where they only had one of their stars, and they're going up against teams that were like top five teams in the NBA, and they're in position to win these games, and in some cases did. And one particular stands out when they broke, Cleveland had that long winning streak midseason, like 15 games, and they beat them in Cleveland on a Sunday ABC game.

46:29Bill Simmons:That was a good game. I remember that one.

46:31Tim Legler:Oh, it was an incredible game. And they didn't, they, their want to was so impressive. And so when I see that in a team, like I'm going to go ahead and most times, I'm going to give the coach credit in that situation. Now some of it, maybe just internally, certain guys just play hard. They just show up and play hard. Great. You got the right guys in your building. But, you know, we can't just dismiss that if a team's playing hard. If we're going to beat up a coach when the team doesn't look like they're playing hard if they are playing hard i'm always going to give credit to the coach he's establishing some sort of culture in there his message is resonating with these guys and to a certain extent they're buying in for them to play

47:08Bill Simmons:that hard a year ago but can that fade away though i mean it can but it would be surprising

47:14Tim Legler:to do that from one year to the next when they've had as you know their top guys have missed as much time as they have it's almost like a built-in reason why it's a struggle some nights but look Look, when you lose four games the way they just did, and look, Memphis, Charlotte right now who can put up numbers on you, and Cleveland can put up numbers. Those aren't like horrific losses, but it's a tough stretch, man. Three of those four were at home, and you're not really in the game in the last six minutes?

47:41Bill Simmons:It's alarming. That's tough. That's why I brought it up and put them 22. I hear you, you're right.

47:46Tim Legler:The only thing I could say for... I think Atlantic time's a good place to put them. I think that's a good way to sum it up. They put it this way. it's go time. Like if you're going to hit another gear, it's going to have to start now.

47:59Bill Simmons:But what's funny is I thought that was going to be like a week and a half ago. I was looking at their schedule. They were like, I don't know, 23 and 18 or something. It was like, okay, if we're going to hear from this team, it's going to start right around now. And it went the other way. Their best five is still plus 18 per 100, I guess is the one good thing about them. But they're almost like a take off the league pass team for me. I don't want them on a TV anymore. I don't like watching them. It makes me mad. All right, next category. Four teams. The play-in dreamers. Starting with Dallas, 19 and 27.

48:33Bill Simmons:I feel like they're better than 19 and 27, especially with the injury luck they've had. But on the right night, if you catch them, I feel like they can hang with just about anybody. I wanted to mention Max Christie. Yeah. I think has officially reached... You're insulting him if you don't mention him when you recap the Luka trade and you just say Luka for AD. I think Christie's become a legitimate asset. He's 22. He's put together two months now where he's like 16 a game and like 45 % from three. He can handle the ball. I thought he was coming on a little for the Lakers last year, but ironically has become a bigger asset for them than Anthony Davis.

49:11Bill Simmons:So just wanted to mention that.

49:13Tim Legler:That's the perfect context and perspective to put him in because you're 100 % right. He was not even mentioned when that trade went down. It was like a set of steak knives. No doubt. And I knew how much JJ valued him because we had had conversations about him. Like that was tough for him to part with him. But, you know, there was just so much focus on, you know, arguably, is this the worst trade in the history of team sports? Yeah. You know, he's going to get lost in all of that conversation, particularly AD went down right away. And look, it takes a, at the time, like a role player a little bit longer, even to get comfortable when a trade like that happens because your touches are infrequent, like your shots, you're a little bit kind of feeling things out.

49:57Tim Legler:And now you look at the way this guy's playing now and every night now you're expecting him, you know, his, his floor now is like, you know, a double digit scoring night. And then like his average game is like 16. And then like his ceiling is now in the twenties. And he fits with flag, which is the only thing that

50:14Bill Simmons:really, really matters here. He actually makes sense on a basketball court with Cooper flag, which is all you're trying to find out.

50:20Tim Legler:And you're right, by the way, they're better than the record. I think a lot of it being this, like if Christie's playing this well from the very beginning, if Cooper flag didn't have to take, you know, some time, you know, at 18 years old to try to figure out the league a little bit, they would be closer to 500 than they are right now. It's been a great story. And they play hard as hell every night.

50:40Bill Simmons:Yeah, they're annoying to play. You can just see it. You could see the other teams. The thing with flag, like he's not shooting the three well at all. I think he's 28%. but everything else, like when you consider how young he is and he's at the same age Kobe was when Kobe came in and, or maybe he's like six months older than Kobe KG, when KG came in, LeBron, when LeBron came in, um, you just know this is the floor and it's a really good floor, right? He's like, this is the worst he's ever going to be right now.

51:08Tim Legler:Yeah. I did. That's a, that's a great point. And that's why I look, you know, I, I use the expression can't miss with him coming out and I, and I kind of felt this way about him before he got to Duke. I'm like, no, no, this guy, like, because he's got a nasty competitive edge to him, even though he's got like a, like a, that little boy smile on his face. Like he has a meanness to him and a toughness for being challenged for the last like five years on, on the high profile, like youth circuit into Duke. Like he was challenged and every night he took the court, people were coming for him and he just wanted, um, you know, he wanted all of it.

51:43Tim Legler:So you kind and new, but man, is he better with the mid-range pull-ups and push shots in that 10-foot area, these really difficult shots, and they go to him to decide games. It's kind of incredible, really, what he's been able to do in the fourth quarter of close games. So man, how much better will this guy be even in two months? It's incredible.

52:05Bill Simmons:Quick question. So they're 19 and 27. if they had Kyrie this whole year from game one, what's their record? How many wins is he worth? You think? They're definitely over 500. I think they're honestly, I think they're like 30 and 16. Yeah. I think he would have swung like 12 games.

52:24Tim Legler:Yeah. I mean, look, so you're talking about 11 more wins than they have right now.

52:28Bill Simmons:Yeah.

52:29Tim Legler:Yeah. I mean, look, Kyrie's that great, but again, you know, the end of the game stuff, he would have brings in.

52:34Bill Simmons:Yeah. I'm just saying healthy Kyrie from game one with this exact roster. I just think he's exactly what they need. That's why I'm kind of hoping he comes back because if you put him in with everything I'm watching, I'm like, I'm kind of interested in this team.

52:47Tim Legler:I'd probably take it as far as flipping the numbers. 19 to 27. That's probably where I would go.

52:53Bill Simmons:So Dallas 21. I have Atlanta at 20. I don't want to talk about them. I can't quit them. Every time I'm out, they have some sort of fun game. Forget it. 19 Portland. This is interesting. So they're 23 and 24, their last 15, their 10 and five, where they beat Houston twice, San Antonio, the Lakers and Atlanta. They had this crazy buildup situation to start the year. Plus, Scoot Henderson got hurt. Holiday got hurt like three weeks in. I have no idea how they're 500. And I don't really know what I would do if I was their GM, because you could argue they should be a seller. You could also argue they say, like, I got an email from a reader, a listener named Dylan, who said, Ja to Portland, why not?

53:39Bill Simmons:Why not scoot and expirings, which they have the expirings, scoot, Thibel, and Rob Williams for Ja. Like, why not? And I was reading the email going, yeah, why not? Why not roll the dice? See what you have. Maybe you're a buyer. You could also go the other way and start selling off some players and trying to think, what would you do?

53:58Tim Legler:I mean, that sounds a little bit low for Ja Morant, but at the same time, his market value is just taking nobody wants them plunge it's it's and it's that's just like you know everything you're hearing is like it's really it's really you know becoming absolutely buyer's market because here's the thing even if you think you know man you know we it might we might not have to give up that much to get him and you kind of come to terms that like we're not giving up anything we really want to get John Morant you then have to think about incorporating him into what you have going on with the players you do like right and what does that look like and that's a whole other conversation where with some of these guys maybe it's injuries right but it's not like that like how's he gonna fit with these guys how hard is he to coach like all of that stuff some guys just like injuries ah do we do we you know roll the dice is he gonna like that it's obvious team and not his and things like that exactly and look if you're Portland now some some part of me would think like what have you got to lose you know that's kind of how I felt I on the one hand there's

54:57Bill Simmons:a lot of red flags and it's, as you said, a buyer's market for job. On the other hand, he's 26. Like you have a chance to get a guy who three years ago would have been like number seven in my trade value column. You're just stealing them. And he hasn't seems like relatively healthy. He keeps having these small injuries. Why not? I don't know. I think about it.

55:20Tim Legler:There's probably two or three teams in the league that I would put in a category of, I mean, come on, what the hell have you got to lose when you really look at who they have and what ultimately their ceiling is, you kind of look at their roster, Portland's and the obvious has been incredible, but this, this is, I mean, I'll be, I'll be, I'll be, it's not going to average 32 next year. Like he, you know what I mean? He's playing great. And I actually think, I actually think the guy's got a great case to be an all-star with what he's done in there and you know, how well they've played for the last month.

55:49Bill Simmons:He's definitely an all-star for me.

55:50Tim Legler:He's gotta be, he's gotta be, but it's funny. I, I, you know, I just, I'm always constantly looking at how people view it. And I've kind of put mine out there on the, um, the all city podcast. I put my reserves out there and I gave him a spot, but it's, if you look around at where people are speculating, it's not like it has like a guarantee. And I think he's pretty close. Yeah. 26 and like, you know, seven. Nobody watches Portland.

56:11Bill Simmons:Well, the other job team is number 18 on my list. The Chicago Bulls are 23 and 23. The only reason I mentioned them is they have expirings they could put together. Maybe they could put Kobe White in it. But their style of play, I actually would think, would be pretty fun for him. It's basically balls to the wall. They're going up and down. The ball's constantly moving. People are just attack, attack, attack. Billy Donovan. I like that one a lot, too. I don't know. I don't mind that one.

56:40Tim Legler:No, I really like that one because, again, there are limitations on their roster that are not going to change. You know what I mean? It's not like they've got that young guy that was a top five pick in the last couple of years that isn't ready now. But you're like, man, this is what we're going to be building around this franchise player. Now you're adding Ja to that. No, I wouldn't do that. They don't have that. So that team has a finite ceiling. And so Ja Morant, yeah. Now, would Billy Donovan want that? I don't know. I don't know if he'd want to sign up.

57:15Bill Simmons:Does he want to go 40 and 42 for the next nine years? or like at some point, I just want to take a swing somewhere. Hey, listen, at least,

57:24Tim Legler:and I was there the other night. I was in the building for the, you know, the Derrick Rose game when they retired his jersey. I'm thinking to myself, if somebody's going to replicate some of those highlights, that's the guy.

57:34Bill Simmons:That's the guy. All right, one more break and then we're going to do the rest of the list. And now it's time for today's With the Assist segment presented by State Farm. In basketball, the best players don't just go it alone. They lean on teammates, coaches, even fans to push them to be better. And we've seen some pretty iconic assists over the years. As a Celtics fan, probably the assist team I was the most afraid of was Magic Johnson and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar in the 80s, especially as Magic got better and better. Kareem got older and older. They had a little flip. When Magic came to the league, Kareem was probably the best player in the league or one of the best two or three.

58:10Bill Simmons:And then by the time we got to the mid-80s, Kareem was older. Magic was becoming one of the two or three best players in the league, but they still figured out how to work together. 1985 finals, famously, Kareem just took over the finals, killed the Celtics, wins the finals MVP, 14 years after the first time he won. Two years later, they win again. Guess who wins? Magic Johnson. Like basketball, life is easier with great assists, like the way those two guys helped each other. State Farm is here to dish one your way. They're not just an insurance company, they're a teammate who's on your bench, ready to listen, assist, and help you get the right coverage when it matters most.

58:44Bill Simmons:State Farm with the assist. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability and eligibility vary by state. This episode is brought to you by Venmo. Supporting your team never gets old, but here's something new. You can now pay for your game day wings and rep your team at the same time. How? By getting your college colors on your card. Score more with the college branded Venmo debit card. Get up to 5 % cash back with Venmo Stash. Sign up at Venmo.com slash college card. The Venmo MasterCard is issued by the Bancorp Bank N.A. Select schools available. Venmo Stash bundled terms and exclusions apply at Venmo.me slash stash terms.

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1:01:21Bill Simmons:Call 1-800-526-7736 to learn more or visit TremphayaRadio.com. The Fork and the Rotors. Number 17, Golden State. Number 16, Miami. I would love to punt on talking about either of those teams if that's okay.

1:01:39Tim Legler:I'm totally fine with that. Okay, great. I don't know. Nothing to say about that. Yeah, I'm good with that.

1:01:45Bill Simmons:Number 15, I have not had enough to say. This group is called the Wild Card. The Charlotte Hornets. Now 19 and 28. In their last 25, they're 13 and 12. They're best four guys with Diabate. plus 26.5 per 100. It's been exciting to watch. Zach Lowe and I have been fighting about then since December. I had him on my podcast. We did league pass rankings. I had them sixth. He mocked me. He made fun of me. He said, what are you thinking? And I'm like, I'm buying whatever's going on there. I like that team. Lamello came back and started to look like Lamello. And then this Diabate piece. and now this team has, they've had, they have some real wins.

1:02:28Bill Simmons:They went to the West Coast and they had one of those West Coast trips where it was like, wow, they could go 0-7. This could be a disaster. Fought through it, put a couple wins up. Their only stinker was a game you did last week. You probably saw their worst game of the last couple of weeks, unfortunately, but give me your Charlotte thoughts.

1:02:44Tim Legler:Well, that's obviously where I was going to go first. So I'm the same. They were my guilty pleasure, bad team. That's the way I've described them. And they started to become like a little bit more than like bad team. Like, you know, and I, but I liked watching them. They're fun. So here you go. They're, they're on our national TV schedule. Couldn't wait. Somebody asked me when, you know, somebody asked me walking in the building, like, were you here last year to call a game? I said, I, the last time I was in this building, I think I was guarding Del Curry. I said, so I don't know. We haven't been here.

1:03:16Tim Legler:And actually, ironically, they announced that night at the game that Del Curry's going to have his which is very, very cool thing. But so here we go. I'm excited. We all were bringing myself, Richard. We sit down, ready to do the game. We did a, we did a feature with con can nipple before the game. We broke down some of his off ball movements and stuff. It's really, it's really exciting. And then they scored 32 points in the first half. And, and I think Lamella was one for 15 in the game over 10 from the three.

1:03:44Bill Simmons:They just stunk.

1:03:45Tim Legler:Now look, they had a horrible night, but at same time, it's like, okay, you didn't really show me anything and i you know i don't think i had anything to do with national tv being in the building i just don't think that's gonna affect guys that much

1:03:57Bill Simmons:or anything i don't know i think that was a little bit that was like their biggest game of the year and they maybe a little and they haven't looked like that for two months that

1:04:05Tim Legler:was easily the worst game they played during the coach's interview charles lee walks out of the room and the last thing he said as he was walking out of the room because we were like he basically turned us was like man you know i hope i hope these guys are ready for it like you know like It was a big night. Turns out they weren't. So I've obviously been watching the last three since, and they're averaging like 125 a game in the last three games, which is what they were doing to everybody prior to that. Their wins, they have the most, the strangest list of strong resume wins over the last month, right?

1:04:35Tim Legler:Smoked Oklahoma City in Oklahoma City, beat the Lakers pretty easily, and all of a sudden you're looking at this team, you're like, man, this team is like, you better be ready to guard them.

1:04:46Bill Simmons:Yeah.

1:04:47Tim Legler:And so look, I'm with you. I'm with you. And I give them credit. They had that game and they turned right around and played three great games and put up numbers. That told me more about them than the one bad game that we called.

1:05:01Bill Simmons:There's an eye test thing with them. The guys make sense together when you're watching it. I mean, a knipple makes sense with anybody. I just think he would fit in with any lineup. But I also like Miller. I think Bridges has been good this year. LaMelo is the one I could never get there with. I talked to Ed Con on the podcast a couple weeks ago and was just saying, like, this is the most fun I've had watching him. There's an arrogance in a good way about him sometimes, especially at the end of games. I used to say this a long time ago about Carmelo, where he wasn't the best player in the league or one of the best players.

1:05:33But when he played LeBron and Wade, he thought he was on their level.

1:05:38Bill Simmons:And sometimes you need that. Paul Pierce was like that for Boston. He was like, he thought he was as good as those guys. And that's all that matters. I think when LaMelo goes against these teams, he's like, finally, my peers, finally, my peers, Shea Gilgis-Alexander. Meanwhile, LaMelo's like, you know, never been even in round one of the playoffs. But he thinks that. And I think there's an energy and a confidence with them offensively.

1:06:02Tim Legler:Well, yeah, the thing is, even that night, by the way, if I'm, you know, giving full disclosure, that was the best individual big man defensive game I've seen all year that Mobley played in that game. Right. And they still ended up getting it within six in the fourth quarter. Yeah, I thought they were going to come back. Yeah, despite how poorly they played, give them some credit. They were in the game. It was just one of the lowest scoring games you're going to see all year. And Mobley was unbelievable in the game, contributed to their offensive woes. But like I said, I care more about what they've done since then than just one night where they didn't play well.

1:06:36So would you do anything if you were them?

1:06:40Bill Simmons:We got the trade deadline coming up, and they have a slew of picks and some good ones. Like they have golden States pick this year. I think they have a top two from Dallas, top two protected in 27 from Dallas. They have things to trade. I mean, the smart world would be like, let's just have a good time. Enjoy this. Maybe we'll make the play in. But then I look around the East and you think like, maybe they could just kind of move around the edges there and grab somebody like on a cheap price, some, some veteran shooter, like some sort of like stretch for that can guard some people.

1:07:12Tim Legler:there's things they need they do and there's yeah they do and and even as well as they played as fun as they are they're they're still like obviously because they've got 11 players 23 and under right okay there's a maturity thing with them sometimes so you go okay well that'll just come with time maybe but maybe we can expedite that by bringing in the right piece a guy that's got a little bit more seasoning on him that's maybe in his upper 20s yeah that can bring that to to this group so I would be looking if I were them. Yeah, I would be.

1:07:44Bill Simmons:I'm glad we agree. Next group is the Enigma. This is one team, the Philadelphia 76ers, who are 24 and 21. And on Thursday night, they beat Houston in overtime. And it was the most impressive Eastern team performance I saw all season. The Embiid was great. I thought Houston played well. And the size and speed of Philadelphia was alarming. And on my thread was Sal and House and Hench, where we always talk about NBA futures, I was like, do we have to start thinking about Sixers East futures? Because it was still pretty good price. And then all of them were like, come on, Embiid's going to get hurt.

1:08:22Bill Simmons:And that's where we landed, where it's like, we can't trust this because we don't trust Embiid. Meanwhile, Embiid in his last 14 is 29 and eight. Yeah. But then you watch them on the Knicks on Saturday. Did you do that game or did you do the other game? We didn't do, I didn't do the United States. You didn't do either, okay. Did the other one. So Embiid, in that game, you saw the weakness they have as those energy, like the Knicks are like a pain in the ass. They rebound, they crash the boards. And that's, I think, what could sink the Sixers in the series. I don't really understand the Embiid thing right now because when you watch him, it only seems like one of his legs work.

1:08:58Bill Simmons:And he only occasionally has explosiveness, but he's getting all the shots that he wants. And he seems relevant. He'll fall down once a game and you think the season's over and then he gets up. I don't really understand it, but it's way better than I thought where we were in October when we were thinking this was like Andrew Bynum. Right. So at least that's a win. What do you see from Philly? How high is your ceiling for them in the building?

1:09:20Tim Legler:You cannot dismiss their chances to make a legitimate run at the Eastern Conference.

1:09:25Bill Simmons:That's how I feel.

1:09:26Tim Legler:I hate it, but I feel that way. And I called like the week before that, I called back to back games, Philly, Cleveland. It was weird. I was there for Wednesday, Friday was the same matchup.

1:09:36Bill Simmons:Yeah. And it's funny.

1:09:39Tim Legler:We're talking about his jumping, his lack of explosiveness. And I've been kind of talking about that, but to see it in person, he had an offensive rebound in that game. He, he, he got it. He was right under the rim. He got it. And like, you know, go back a few years, healthy and beat MVP and beat. He's probably going to gather like swing his shoulders a little bit, go up and just, just dunk on whoever's in front of him.

1:09:58Bill Simmons:Right.

1:09:59Tim Legler:He bent his knees and he went to jump and I called it a toddler jump, you know, cause like I have a four-year-old. and when he was learning how to jump and he was like two you know he bent his knees and he'd go to jump but he wouldn't leave the ground at all like it was just like nailed to the floor and it was the weirdest thing he literally tried to jump and he only got as high as his tiptoes and it mobly blocked it and they went the other way and i was like man oh man and even on the defensive end like those incredible plays where he covers block to block to get a shot at the rim or trail a guard all the way to the rim that turned a corner on him and smack it off the glass like Those are rare to non-existent now.

1:10:36Tim Legler:And yet he's putting up the numbers you're talking about because his shooting touch defies everything I know about, like, you know, biomechanics. There's no way a dude that big should have that kind of a shooting touch. He's that talented of a shot maker. He's always going to put up numbers if he gets touches and plays minutes. So he's giving them that. Now, that other part. Can I stop you on that for one second? Yeah.

1:11:01Bill Simmons:I'm trying to think of somebody who, somebody else who came into the league as one thing and 10 years later is a completely different thing, right? He comes into the league and he's just like, oh my God, this is one of the great big man athletes we've ever seen. This is like, this looks like young Shaq almost like, holy shit, where's this going? And then 12 years later, he's on one leg and makes every shot he takes. It seems like, and all of them don't even hit the rim. And it's like, how did we, how did this guy emerge from what I remember from like the Kansas season and all that? So it's just, I think a bizarre evolution.

1:11:36Bill Simmons:I don't remember anything like it.

1:11:37Tim Legler:It's no, it's incredible. Look, I'll put it this way. It's, it's nuts because, you know, on one hand, you're always, we're always constantly scrutinizing his injuries and like all that stuff over the last few years. At the same time, I am marveling at his ability to put up those kinds of numbers when he's got that level of physical limitation and he's that far from what he was and still being because some guys, Derek Rose is a great example of this. I just was talking about the other night because I'm like, Derek Rose, think about all he lost athletically. He came back and he was actually pretty productive.

1:12:06Tim Legler:He had some decent years as a totally different shooter, but he wasn't putting up those numbers. Like Embiid is putting up close to the same scoring numbers he did when he was an MVP. And he's playing under, like, playing like 27 minutes a game. And he's doing that because he's that good. When you pair it out with the backcourt, Paul, George, They've got other pieces. Like they just got Oubre back. They've got, you know, McCain. I don't know what's going to happen for him this year, but that's maybe for next year. But like he's. Or he's a trade piece.

1:12:34Bill Simmons:They have that McCain-Grimes combo if they want to trade something.

1:12:37Tim Legler:And Grimes plays so hard defensively. I was so impressed with him when I was in Philly. You cannot dismiss this team's chances to make a real run at the whole conference.

1:12:47Bill Simmons:Yeah.

1:12:48Tim Legler:They're going to be middling until then. They're going to be up and down. It's funny because you look up. I'm like looking at their schedule. So they were 24 and 21. And I'm sorry, they were 16 and 11. You're like, okay, that's pretty good. Now they've gone eight and 10 cents. It's like, but they're capable at any given night of looking like, oh my God, how can we forget about this team? So that's kind of where they're at.

1:13:08Bill Simmons:I texted my buddy house, size and speed. That's what they have, which I don't think anyone else in the East has that combo. And I don't know if it's sustainable and Embiid might get hurt tomorrow. You mentioned the limitations. I remember Duncan in probably around 2011-12 range. One of his legs just stopped working, basically. And you could see it when you went to the games. He was basically on one leg, but he was so good and his footwork was so good and he was so smart. It just didn't really matter. And he just picked the spots. But one of his legs didn't work. And when I watch him beat it, I'm like, one of his legs doesn't work.

1:13:47Bill Simmons:He can't push off it. I don't understand how he's getting to his spots. I don't understand how teams aren't using this against him, but he's making it work. I'm taking them seriously, especially because of the maxi edge comb. I think at home in a playoff series, that team's going to be a nightmare because that crowd loves those guys, and there's an energy in the building. And if they get anything from the bead, who knows? All right, lingering. Lakers, Toronto, Phoenix. We've talked about all of these teams. Just quickly on the Lakers. And I'm sorry for the Toronto and Phoenix, fans who are probably like, oh, you skipped over our teams.

1:14:22Bill Simmons:We've talked about them in the past. I don't think, I don't see any scenario where the Lakers get out around one of the playoffs and yet they're 28 and 17 and they have Luca, who's one of the best five guys in the league. And they have LeBron, who's looked pretty good lately. And they have a lineup that seems to make more sense than it did. And they might even be able to make a trade or two because they have some expirings. And I don't take them seriously at all because I don't think they're going to be able to get stops but they have a way of just stealing six minute stretches of these games where they just all of a sudden they were down eight and then they're up 10 you know you kind of don't even know what happened there's no team in the league like this I also hate the Lakers I'm just I'll freely admit it's my least favorite team so I'm rooting against them and I'm probably not the best objective observer what do you see when you watch this team well I just see

1:15:13Tim Legler:their defense is so bad at times, it's hard for me to wrap my head around like taking them really seriously like to potentially win the West, which you would think a team with Luca and LeBron and even a healthy Austin Rees, like you think they should be in that mix just based on those names alone. It's hard for me to get to that point because of how their defense looks for stretches of games. Having said that, the only two teams in the Western Conference that I would say definitively now and going forward, they're not beating these two teams in a seven-game series or Oklahoma City and Denver. Now, would I put money on them beating San Antonio or Houston or Minnesota?

1:15:55Tim Legler:I probably wouldn't want to risk. I'm not a gambler anyway, but I probably wouldn't want to risk my money on that. But would I dismiss their chances of being able to do that with Luka on your team and how good he can be in playoff series and what we've seen him do historically on nights when he's damn near won games by himself. I can't just, and look, because it's not like San Antonio's really young. They haven't gone through any of this. Houston, I like a lot, but they haven't had as good a year as I thought they would, as consistently dominant as I thought they could be. And then Minnesota, you say the same thing about, especially the stretch they're in right now.

1:16:36Tim Legler:So like, I'm just saying, Like you said, there's no way you can envision a scenario where they get out of the first round. I wouldn't go that far, depending on what that four or five or six, three matchup looked like if they get into that. But I don't think they could they could be Denver or Oklahoma City if they played them right out of the gate. And I don't think that's going to happen. I guess conceivably they could end up with Denver in the first round. I guess that's possible, but more likely they get a team like Houston or to get a team like Minnesota.

1:17:03Bill Simmons:Yeah, the thing that scares me about them. when they want to get like eight minutes of pretty good shots, they seem to be able to do that. And LeBron, who I don't think LeBron has a first step anymore in the same way in the half court, but coming off a rebound or coming off pace, he still can do the old LeBron, go 60 feet, and you can't stay in front of him, and he's going to get a layup. And then he's obviously great in the half court, even though I don't think he's the same player anymore. Smart, they're relying on a lot, which would make me nervous. and I think they're losing Aiton once and for all.

1:17:38Bill Simmons:I just think that the confidence in him is fading to the point that you're going to lose him as an asset pretty soon and they probably already have. So whether they can put him in a trade or whatever, I just think the ship has sailed for him with them. But I mean, to get the athleticism they're getting from LeBron at this age, it's pretty good. I don't think they'll be able to get stops and I think they're going to lose in round one to whoever they play, but maybe I'll be wrong.

1:18:06Tim Legler:I think my strongest argument for them potentially, potentially being able to beat one of the teams I mentioned, that's why I wouldn't rule it out. Luka did a night against Chicago. Like that was Luka to me at his absolute peak in Dallas where he was less, you know, and it's never going to be non-existent, but less of the distracting stuff with the officials, less of the constant body language. That's just to me is just like not, you know, doesn't demonstrate enough leadership. he wasn't doing it as much the other night and the some of the passes he threw in that game to by the way chips in 46 points as well but some of the passes he threw in that game and the way that the bulls had absolutely no chance to stop this guy in the half court that reminded me a lot of him at his absolute best in dallas and that's why i'm saying he's capable of doing stuff like that and if that's one or two games in a seven game series that's enough to potentially shift the series.

1:19:00Bill Simmons:Well, that's why, as I said, I don't see any scenario where they get out of round one. I also wouldn't bet against them. I'm just like, the Luka, that game he had the other night, it's just like the ceiling's off in Alderette. The ceiling and the floor is off. I don't know what to expect from them. If he just decides to do that for two months, what are we going to do? Clippers, number 10. They're officially the sleeper, even though they are still under 500. We talked about them already. The only thing I wanted to mention was five weeks ago, we were terrified that OKC was going to go 75-7 and that the Clippers were going to give them a top three pick.

1:19:37Bill Simmons:And now times have changed. So anyway, Zach did a good job of breaking them down with Mo and his podcast. But the five out thing that they can do now, I think is the biggest thing I've noticed. That they have looks now. I don't think they knew what the hell they were those first four weeks. And Kawhi wasn't really back and fully Kawhi. And it was just kind of the James Hardish. It was awful. Now they have different things they can do. They got some young guys off the bench now, and they have a little bit more of a defensive identity. They figured out how to use Collins. I think they're good. I'm taking them seriously.

1:20:09Bill Simmons:You have to. I'm taking them more seriously than the Lakers.

1:20:12Tim Legler:What's crazy is this is how buried they were. They've won 15 out of 18, and they're still six games away from getting out of playing to catch the 60. So can they make up six additional games on a team like Minnesota or a team like the Lakers? Like, can you make up six, seven games on those teams with 30-something to go? Probably not. So you're talking about most likely going to be like, you know, a high-seeded play-in team, a seven or something. Like, that's the route they're going to have to take, even if they continue to play out of their minds, because that's just a lot of ground to make up on other teams that are pretty good teams.

1:20:48Tim Legler:I don't know if they could do that. So they're probably going to play in the second team.

1:20:50Bill Simmons:That's a horror show matchup for the one seed. You'd be like, oh, cool, we're the one seed. We get to play. Now, we don't know if Kawhi's can be healthy in two months, but who knows? Uh, next group is lurking. And this is just Cleveland in New York. Cleveland's 20 and 20. New York is 27, 18 Cleveland last 15 games, 11 and four. You saw him in person. You saw an awesome mobile game. Um, in general, I never really gave up on this team because it wasn't like they could make a trade. They were so hampered by the apron. It wasn't like, it's kind of like, this is your team. So you have 82 games to figure this out.

1:21:24Bill Simmons:You have a lot of talent. Are you going to figure it out? they look better than it did. I want to mention they have a five-game West trip coming. And I think this is, we'll know when they go on this trip. If they're going to start to look like the 16-game win streak team from last year, going on the West Coast and being on the road and being together, this is usually when it comes together. So I'm monitoring that trip.

1:21:47Tim Legler:They absolutely are starting to come together. I've been scratching my head all year about this team that last year was unstoppable most nights offensively and also really good defensively a lot of nights. But their offense was literally, they'd hit you with an onslaught of offense that you couldn't recover from last year. And it wasn't a lot of that this year. You know, Garland's been hurt and it took him some time to come back. And DeAndre Hunter just hasn't shot the ball well all year. So, and, you know, Merrill now out, they haven't had Struis. There's like a lot of reasons, a lot of different lineups.

1:22:19Tim Legler:All these teams deal with it. They've had a lot of it. they're starting to convince me more here that like okay like they're getting it together not fully like okay there you go now we're good to go the rest of the year but definitely a better product than you were seeing over the first couple months i'm monitoring them the knicks

1:22:39Bill Simmons:this goes back to our regular season versus playoffs discussion they're six and nine in their last 15 catch them on the wrong night they look awful um i still think when we get to the playoffs, it'll be a different story. The town's piece is worth monitoring because it's weird that his offense went backwards and he seems to be a little bit of a lightning rod these days, but we've already talked about the Knicks in this pod. All right. Second to last group is the contenders. I still have Houston as a legitimate contender. So I have seven teams left, Houston, Boston, San Antonio, Minnesota, Detroit, Denver, and OKC.

1:23:15Bill Simmons:Are you good with that as a final seven here? Or is there a team that would you put Cleveland or New York in that final seven? Give me that. Give me that seven again. Houston, Boston, San Antonio, Minnesota, Detroit, Denver, and OKC. Would you have jumped Cleveland or New York over any of those teams? Man, it's tough right now because it's like...

1:23:37Tim Legler:Sounds like you're down on Houston a little bit. Well, I was. I actually punished them severely when they lost to the Kings. I punished them I banished them to 10th on my like my like rankings in the west alone I was and I didn't obviously fully buy into that but I was like this was at a time when the kings were losing by 30 to everybody yeah and then they get them and losing that game I was like are you and everybody played everybody played it wasn't like they sat guys everyone was there they were trying to win the game and they got beat by the Kings. I punished them. I'm, I, it was just a temporary thing.

1:24:15Tim Legler:Obviously they're at it.

1:24:16Bill Simmons:They're at a solitary confinement.

1:24:18Tim Legler:They're out of solitary. They're back. They're back out. Yes. They're back out in the yard. Yeah. You know, I'm letting them out, but obviously they, they've got the talent and they've got the talent on both ends of the floor. Yes. They have to be still considered in the mix. You know, some of the, some of the Minnesota is just kind of like, man, like, you know, you're asking me at a time when they're, when they're playing the way they're playing now, like I'm kind of going, yeah, I mean, I guess you'd have to put almost New York and Cleveland kind of in that. Yeah.

1:24:44Bill Simmons:It might be a nine person contender group. Yeah.

1:24:48Tim Legler:I'm not, I'm not, I'm not ready to, I think of the two between the Knicks and the Cavs, I'd probably be more likely to go with the Knicks. But it's six, one half dozen, the other, honestly.

1:24:59Bill Simmons:So Houston, number seven, they still have a, they're still plus 6.2 per a hundred, which is fourth in the league. There's still 12 games under five, over 500. The thing that's weird with this team, so you would think KD and Shengun and Jabari and Reed Shepard and Aman Thompson. You'd think that's my five. If I'm going to do anything in the playoffs, KD, Shengun, Jabari, Reed, Aman Thompson, those are going to be my five. That gives me the most flexibility. I can put Reed in the corner. He can run fast breaks. I have scoring. I have size. I can kind of hide Reed on the worst player on the other team.

1:25:37Bill Simmons:Thompson can guard everybody. That's minus 2.2 this season, those five guys together. And it kind of matches watching their games and wondering why when those guys play together, why it's not better. And I don't know what is missing with those five. So what do you think? KD, Shangoon, Jabari, Reed, Ahmed Thompson. Why isn't that a kick-ass five? What am I missing?

1:26:03Tim Legler:Yeah, well, I think it's more of a, even more so than I think that that five, two things I think that, that they have shown me that like, this is why I'm not fully bought in. I do think their offense can be stagnant and stale sometimes.

1:26:18Bill Simmons:No question.

1:26:19Tim Legler:It's not, they're not making teams guard them. They're making it easy to be guarded. And I think there's more there that they could do with, with just motions and movements and cuts and like weak side action, taking place multiple actions at the same time at different sides of the floor. They're very predicated on get the ball in the hands of KD or Shingun, and they're just going to play out of that and see what happens. And I think they make themselves easier to guard than they have to. The other thing, and I said this last week, I think one of the most untapped weapons in this league is Amon Thompson in the post.

1:26:57Tim Legler:I don't know why they haven't really examined it. He never goes down there.

1:27:01Bill Simmons:I would throw in him on the post, but then also when they spread out their team and he just tries to beat people one-on-one, I always feel like he's getting a layup. I'm with you. Like he's, he's some sort of force and I don't know what, maybe they don't know how to harness it.

1:27:16Tim Legler:But even in the, and I agree with you, the one-on-one stuff, but even then you can kind of, at least you can kind of back up, dare him to take a pull of 15 foot over the hand in his face.

1:27:24Bill Simmons:Yeah. Good point.

1:27:24Tim Legler:When he posts up the rare times that he does, but I'm thinking of potentially viewing this, he's so quick off his feet. He is such an incredible athlete down there. And he's a good passer. So if you put him in a one-on-one situation, do you want to leave Reed Shepard? Do you want to leave Kevin Durant? Do you want to rotate off those guys, even Shen Goon? Do you want to leave those guys to go double Ahmed Thompson post? That's a tough call. and I just think he could just learn how to go two three dribbles with a guy on his back and like the different spins he could get into because he's so lightning quick off his feet it would put a lot of pressure on defense to figure out I'm not you know run your offense that way but why you can't do that five six possessions a game four four possessions a game one a quarter even they don't ever do it and I think that would be something I would look at the team and go wow that's that's a nice other option to go to for a stretch of the game if durant's getting a blow let's see how teams guard that that's a tough matchup for guys that have that spot have to guard and they're smaller and they're not nearly as quick as him and so i just think it's something i love that

1:28:32Bill Simmons:that's really smart yeah they it doesn't feel like they've fully understood how to use him but with that it's what's funny is nobody posts up anymore right so that's very true but i always feel like... Except for wings. Wings and point guards do, but big guys don't. True. Like Peyton Pritchard's supposed to go. I'm always for anything that makes the defense panic. And I think if you spread things around with him, that would actually work. But I haven't given up on Houston. I think we'll be hearing from them. Adams seems like he's going to be out for a while. Adams is one of those guys that seems like he gets hurt every year, though.

1:29:09Bill Simmons:So I'm not sure. I'm sure that's why they got Capella.

1:29:12Tim Legler:He's such a difference maker, too.

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1:29:50Bill Simmons:Like Instagram teen accounts. Instagram teen accounts have automatic protections for your teens see and who can contact them. Plus time management tools and extra controls for parents who prefer them. And Instagram will continue adding built-in safety features to help create age-appropriate experiences. Learn more about teen accounts and Instagram's ongoing work to protect teens online at instagram.com slash teen accounts. That's instagram.com slash teen accounts. Number six, Boston. We don't have to talk about them. Number five, San Antonio. I feel like we've talked about them a bunch. Number four, Minnesota.

1:30:28Bill Simmons:28 and 19. Eight and seven that are last 15. Also some terrible stuff going on in the city, which I'm sure isn't, you know, when you're trying to play basketball and stay focused on stuff, if having your city falling apart around you probably isn't awesome. I'm not giving up on this team either. I do worry about them in the playoffs when they're up five with a minute left. And these teams that they're playing are just like, let's go get the ball. They don't have a point guard. And they just get attacked. And it's like watching a football team under attack in a two-minute drill. And all of a sudden, it seems like they can't dribble the ball over half court.

1:31:08Bill Simmons:and I don't know how they fix that. How do they fix it?

1:31:12Tim Legler:Personnel dictates they really can't unless they make a change in personnel. They can't. And that's one of the reasons that they're off. They're so difficult to come to a full evaluation of because they can be so good defensively some nights. And obviously Anthony Edwards can just be too good for some defense or some nights. But that's just so much to put on his plate. Right. All the time, every night. Not because he's such an explosive, talented scorer. and he's gotten better at reading defenses and getting the ball out of traffic and all of that. But that's just so much to put on a guy's plate that should just be raw go attack, like all the time without having to think that way.

1:31:51Tim Legler:But I think he has to, because they don't have the personnel to really do that around him. And I think it is a hole with their team that hasn't really been filled.

1:31:59Bill Simmons:I think you and I both value the point guard position. You know what's nice sometimes? A point guard, a guy who can dribble, who's looking around and be like, hey, he hasn't had a shot in a while. Hey, we have a fast break rebound. I'll run the fast break and get somebody a layup. It's nice to have one everyone's spot. That's why I value Reed Shepard.

1:32:16Tim Legler:I've been cruising by a pickup game and I just take a look and I see a guy running the show that way, you know? Yeah, and it gives you a little hop on yourself. A 45-year-old, you know, weekend warrior guy that knows how to run a team. Yeah. There you go. Just give him a shout out through the window.

1:32:30Bill Simmons:Well, that's why when I watch Reed Shepard, I'm like, I feel like it's in there with him. I could see him like running a team. Like we talked in a past podcast. He reminds me of a little Mark Price.

1:32:40Tim Legler:Yeah, there's some Mark Price stuff. More athletic Mark Price. That's kind of what he reminds me of. I'm so glad he's had the year that he's had because it was a lot of scrutiny on him. And early on, you weren't sure. Like, oh man, which way is this going to go? He has really stepped up. And he's on the court, as you already mentioned. He's on the court for a lot of their important runs in games.

1:33:00Bill Simmons:He reminds me of my guy, Drake May, a little bit. Like Silent Assassin. doesn't really talk that much sneaky competitive just ready to fight i just want to drink man in the podcast uh number three minnesota we'll see i don't know how they can make a trade with how handicapped they're by the roster but i think that point guards is that even though i have them fourth i because i'm almost projecting some sort of move if this is the roster in may they're dropping out of the top seven. Detroit, number three. We talked about them a little bit already. My only thing with him, one shooter short, 27th and three-point attempt, 17th and three-point percentage, and I feel like so much is on Cade at the end of these games.

1:33:48Bill Simmons:The Levert thing, which I didn't like when they did it, and it doesn't seem like it's worked, and he's 14 million this year and 14 million next year. They have all their picks. Feels like that's the move. Something with Levert and a pick and just try to get somebody who's more reliable. They could go nuts and try to do Troy Murphy. I don't know if, if I'm new Orleans, I'm not trading for all of Detroit's picks. Cause they're going to be good for the next five years, but there's a move, right? There's something, could it be Clay Thompson for Levert? I don't know. They like, there's some sort of veteran shooter that I want to trust in the last five minutes of the game that will give them space.

1:34:22Bill Simmons:I don't know.

1:34:23Tim Legler:I think that's the, that's the only thing I see. One thing that I've been, is their three-point shooting like that's that's a legitimate thing like they're you know to think that there's going to be nights in playoff series when they make eight threes and the other team makes 15 yeah right that's that's tough to overcome that with they don't care how good your mid-range is and you get to the line you can score in the paint at some nights it's going to require you to make 12, 15, maybe 18 threes in a game. And they, that's the one thing about the team. But, but when I start to think about that, what I counter that with is their ability to show up with this absolute focused business-like approach.

1:35:09Tim Legler:And the fact that they've lost, I think two games in a row, three times all year, never more than that. They always come back when you think that they're like, okay, look at Detroit. They've run off five in a row again. They've been doing it all year. I just love how serious they are. They're tough. They're going to come at you. They want to fight in an alley when the game starts. They're ready for that, and they've got a star that you can't speed up. He plays how he wants to play under the most pressurized moments, but the shooting is a thing, and we'll see if that ends up costing them at some point down the road.

1:35:46Bill Simmons:Friday night, I watched a bunch of basketball, including Denver. I'm sorry, Detroit versus Houston. Those are probably the top two seeds in the these guys might fight tournament when you're, and they were together. And it was like, there's actually might be a fight in this game. And there was a couple of times it was brewing. And even in the fourth quarter, there was a couple of like guys had to get separated, but Detroit's ready to roll. That's why I want them to get a shooter, but I would also love to see them get one more, one more chest out guy. because I think that's a real asset for them.

1:36:17Bill Simmons:They're a real hard team for the Celtics because they're so physical and they're so tough. And the Celtics, you know, it's a younger team. They don't have a ton of size. And you put somebody like Stewart out there and he's, you know, moving bodies. He's intimidating. And Durant too, who I think I just went, he's my most improved guy this year. I'm voting for him. I'm just telling you now.

1:36:38Tim Legler:That's a great call. He has to be an all-star. And I love the point you're making about the toughest is because you don't rarely see teams this young that are this tough. Typically, those are teams that got a bunch of veterans sprinkled in there. It's a group of young guys that all have the same look on their face. And I just, I don't know. I mean, I'm just so impressed. And give JB all the credit in the world, man. He did a great job in Cleveland, too. I'm glad that he ended up in a place where he could go win right away. Some of those guys, they win, then they get fired, and then they got to go to the next job as a 20-win team.

1:37:11Tim Legler:And you don't know if it's ever going to turn out. for him to go to a place that was a bad team, but had a lot of time to turn it around where both he and Kenny Atkinson ended up in good places. I'm two of my favorite guys, so I'm happy for both of them.

1:37:24Bill Simmons:You know what's funny about that team? Because this happened in the Houston game. Jabari Smith almost got into it. And the Pistons have a couple guys on their team that are, we have to get this guy out of the situation, guys, where you can see the other teammates are like, oh shit. we gotta get Ron Holland out of here now something's gonna happen Isaiah Stewart's like that they have like three of those guys

1:37:48Tim Legler:they've like hired extra coaches on staff and that's all they're there for they got them from some nightclub and they know how to get out there quickly and separate people

1:37:59Bill Simmons:you gotta do it alright the favorites I think Detroit that's my gun to the head team in the east I would pick them because I think they have a trade to make Right now, who's going to win the East? I'm projecting whatever trade it is, but I really like that team. They're going to have home court. And I just think that, I think it's all lined up for them. They have a top seven guy. Now, if they don't add another piece, I get more worried because I think there's a sameness to how they play that I think you get used to in a series. I'm just assuming they're going to get somebody.

1:38:31Tim Legler:There's also this massive, massive X factor hanging over the Eastern Conference with Jason Tatum, possibly being injected into like a playoff run by the Celtics.

1:38:41Bill Simmons:I don't even want to talk about that.

1:38:43Tim Legler:Okay. So, so like there's that hanging out there. So like as good as it looks for Detroit now, we know things could you listen if he doesn't say he didn't even play and Boston somehow makes it to the conference finals. I mean, that's one of the great coaching jobs and like stories like we've seen in a long, long time in this league. But if he comes back and none of these other teams, he's coming back. The question is how good is he going to be?

1:39:06Bill Simmons:We will see him again.

1:39:07Tim Legler:Yeah, he's going to play. I agree.

1:39:10Bill Simmons:I'm going to write down every week who I think is going to come out of the East. And I bet it changes every week. This week, I'm picking Detroit. Next week, it'll be another pick. All right, the favorites. We'll go through these quickly. Denver, number two. I used to have OKC as the sole favorite. I have now moved Denver into that group together, partly because this no-joker run was so important for their young guys. I mean, Watson in January is averaging 23-6 a game. 50 % 49 from three. Like this is whatever happens when Joker comes back. The fact that they know that they have what they got from Watson and pick it, even a little Najee.

1:39:48Bill Simmons:I just think you can't put a price on that. Like this is the most important thing that could happen to them. Them surviving without the best guy in the league is crazy. I never ever in a million years would have predicted it. The other thing would be Gordon's hammies. We'll see what happens with them.

1:40:03Tim Legler:You know, real quick on Watson, like the, you know, because this has been a big conversation, obviously, for like a month. Yeah. But, you know, I'm being realistic about all of it, saying, okay, get everybody back out there. Aaron Gordon, Christian Brown, Jokic. He doesn't go back to what he was, okay? So he's more than that now. But at the same time, there's only so many opportunities in a given night when you add all those guys to the mix, right? So his numbers are going to obviously take a big hit. But here's what they did find. they found this because they're going to need this there's going to be nights in big games where now maybe somebody's hurt or foul trouble or he just gets it going when he's now capable of giving you a 20 point playoff game and this was a guy that was like he almost became robotic to me in like his decision making was all about I'm just going to guard because I don't offense I don't even factor offensively for this team I didn't know what he was offensively I'm like pretty good defender he's gone from that to a guy now that I think is going to be a turning point in games for the Nuggets.

1:41:10Bill Simmons:I agree.

1:41:10Tim Legler:In the playoffs.

1:41:11Bill Simmons:It's crazy. Well, you know, it's funny. They also have Tim Hardaway who I think once around will probably have a good half where it'll be like Tim Hardaway said four threes in the first half. Yeah. That's all it takes. They have wild cards that last year you'd think like DeAndre Jordan was playing in playoff games for them. And they, they had their fingers crossed every minute joke or what I personally, they would be my gun to the head pick right now. And I don't think that's going to change over the course of the next couple of weeks because I just, I just think there, I, I can't imagine Jokic is only going to win one title.

1:41:45Bill Simmons:I keep coming back to that. So they have this, the best supporting cast he's ever had. Does the best Murray's ever looked is Kim Johnson going to be healthy ever? I don't know. That's an X factor too. Like it'd be nice if he could just play basketball. Um, but for the most part, when they, if they can get everybody back in April, this team's a monster. And then OKC is the other one. They're 30 and seven and 10 now they're 12 and eight in their last 20. And J Dub and Hartenstein have only played half the season. I don't really know how worried you should be here. I guess the only things that would worry me are the three point shooting, which has been bad and the fact that they don't get offensive rebounds at all.

1:42:28Bill Simmons:So when the three-point shooting goes away and the league's better and it feels like you can get them late now, like they're losing like a couple of two-point games that I just don't feel like they were losing the same way last year. What else are you seeing?

1:42:42Tim Legler:Yeah, they've had three of those type of losses in the last three weeks. And that wasn't the case like a year ago. Here's what's happened with Oklahoma City. And it's the best thing that could have happened really to the league, you know, is they went from an inevitability of repeating, which is what it looked like to me. I was just like, we're going to go ahead and play this out. But what's the point? I mean, you know, and I know they got taken to seven games twice last year, but the fact that they had this strange offseason because they were champions, a bunch of young guys, they come in, they already get paid.

1:43:16Tim Legler:Like, and that didn't, there wasn't even a blip on the radar for them. They roll out to 24-1 to start the year. I'm like, forget it, man. Like how are you supposed to deal with this team? And again, defensive numbers off the charts. Here's what has happened in the last three, what, month and a half.

1:43:34Bill Simmons:Plus four weeks. Yeah, four or five weeks.

1:43:35Tim Legler:Basically a month, really, yeah. Is they look like they can be had, right? They can be had if certain things happen. Now, you said gun to head Denver. Gun to head for me right now would probably be OKC. I'm not ready to just act like, you know, them at their best isn't still something I'd look at as the standard, but they've now opened the door to the conversation. That's what they've done. Even the struggles I had with San Antonio, like three times in 10 days, that's not a fluke. Like there's something there. Denver at full strength, you're going, my goodness. Like that with Jokic getting another shot at that team again with a better supporting cast around them.

1:44:16Tim Legler:Like, yeah, you might want to bet on Jokic, but here's the thing. We haven't seen Denver like that yet because everybody's been out. So we're going to see this and we're going to revisit this a couple of times. I'm sure at least several times before we're done the season going into the playoffs. It could change. But right now I'm still kind of hanging with them. But the fact that we're even having the conversation that there's doubt is made everything more interesting in the NBA.

1:44:40Bill Simmons:Well, can I give you a scenario here? Yeah, it would. It would require San Antonio is 31 and 15, Houston's 20 and 16. So it would require Houston somehow jumping San Antonio and it required Denver doing a little better there is an okc san antonio one slash four scenario in round two oh yeah and then there's a denver houston three two round like basically there's a way for this to happen where san antonio okc would be the round two matchup i think that would suck for okc not saying they would lose but that would have to be their worst case scenario then have to play san antonio and then Denver the next round.

1:45:18Bill Simmons:So I would just watch those top four spots. The Lakers are kind of lurking, but I don't, I just think it's going to be those four in some order after OKC and where they end up. Can Denver get to the two seed when Jokic comes back so they could at least have home court and the first two rounds. There's been some good jockeying.

1:45:38Tim Legler:There will be a two seed when it's all said and done, which is actually amazing that we're not even talking about beyond that because as much as we've acted like Oklahoma City's so vulnerable, they're five and a half games up.

1:45:48Bill Simmons:Right, right.

1:45:49Tim Legler:So, you know what I mean? That could end up being eight when it's all said and done. Who knows? But I think Denver will get the two seed and prolong seeing Oklahoma City as long as they can.

1:46:01Bill Simmons:What's your Super Bowl pick?

1:46:04Tim Legler:I'm going with Seattle. I'm going with Seattle.

1:46:07Bill Simmons:Because you work for ESPN and that's just what everybody did?

1:46:10Tim Legler:They poured the Kool-Aid down your throat? I, it's as simple as this. I'm an NFC guy. I'm an NFC guy.

1:46:17Bill Simmons:Okay.

1:46:18Tim Legler:So my, that's been my conference, my entire life. I'm an NFC guy. Um, look, this would be an incredible. If the new England pulls this off, man, it's almost, it's not even fair that you people that root for these teams up and people hate us. It's great. We're so back. You just had Tom Brady for 20 years and he went, you know, you're back in the super bowl. We made it 22 year old quarterback. Come on, man.

1:46:43Bill Simmons:Listen, we suffered for five full years. It's terrible. We're just completely irrelevant. I still, though, I'm going to wonder for a long time

1:46:53Tim Legler:what the hell Sean Payton was doing, not going, kicking that field. But that's another, for another day.

1:46:58Bill Simmons:I was on multiple Pats fan text threads praying for them to go for it.

1:47:03Tim Legler:Yeah, that situation. I didn't want to go down 10-0. Please go for it because you're just looking at the conditions and the way this game is going. You're like, that 10-point lead, it looks insurmountable. Plus, even if they got it,

1:47:16Bill Simmons:it didn't guarantee they were going to score a touchdown. They just sort of been first and goal on the night. The risk-reward was not there. There's no basketball version of this where people have just decided you should just go for it blindly at all these fourth downs. Because I always feel like you got to bring in the situation. That Denver-New England thing, and Seth Wickersham wrote a great piece about it. The perfect example of like, throw away the analytics and think about the actual situation and what's going on and the fact that the Patriots offense couldn't do anything and you could go up 10-0 at home with a blizzard coming, take the points.

1:47:50Bill Simmons:Forget about the analytics. Forget about, oh, we could go up 14-0. Cool. You could also just go up 10-0 and make us try to get two scores on you and you didn't do it. And you gave us legs. You know what's funny though?

1:48:01Tim Legler:I'll say this, like what's going on currently changes your thinking. And I'll give you an example. Two years ago, I'm a Commanders fan, right? We go to the NFC Championship game that year. We went for it on every fourth down all season. I got every one of them because Jaden Daniels 20 for 23 impossible to stop. Yeah. So now, now, you know, going into that year, I wasn't that aggressive with it now by mid season that year, every single time, ah, why do we even have a punter? Just cut the punter. We don't need a punter. We're going to go for it every fourth down all season. Like that's where I, that's where I got to.

1:48:31Tim Legler:So it is amazing how like you can change your thinking based on like current success with something tasting anything.

1:48:38Bill Simmons:Last thing I had for you, I talked about this on an NBA mailbag, a rule in the last minute of a game. If a team's up four and there's a foul, the team that's up only takes one free throw. If they make it, it counts for two points and we keep the game going. Or we can say last 30 seconds, whatever it is. Last 30, you're up. You fouled me, I'm up four because you want to stop the clock. One free throw, I get two. If I miss it, I still get to take the other free throw. But if I make it, I get two points for the one free throw.

1:49:13Tim Legler:To penalize the team for trying to foul and get back in the game?

1:49:17Bill Simmons:Yeah. Why? Because I don't like the fouling. The fouling is out of control. We're seeing teams now proactively fouling to try to game it with like 37 seconds left. I agree with that.

1:49:29Tim Legler:It starts really early. Yeah, it starts really. Even the whole thing up three, protecting a three-point lead and how early some of these teams are fouling. I think it's a massive mistake, by the way, strategically. To me, if you're up there, I've seen teams do it 15, 16 seconds left in the game.

1:49:44Bill Simmons:Right.

1:49:45Tim Legler:I hate it. You have any idea how much longer you're extending the game? Because you're also going to put pressure on yourself to make free throws.

1:49:52Bill Simmons:Right.

1:49:52Tim Legler:And you're going to miss one eventually. I just think it's silly. You get down to that seven, six second range. Yeah, I see it. I get the point then. Some of these teams are doing it for 15, 20 seconds left in the game, up three. They're already taking fouls. I don't get it. All right. Tim Legler, Cleveland and who tomorrow? Lakers, man. Oh, there you go. We got a good one. Yeah, we got it. We got a good one. Both. That's a good one. Playing pretty well. Yeah. So I'm looking forward to it, man. All right. Great to see you. A pleasure as always.

1:50:21Bill Simmons:I'll see you in February. You got it, Bill. Thanks. All right. That's it for the podcast. Thanks to Legs. Thanks to Eduardo and Gahal as well. Don't forget new rewatchables went up. Zodiac, which you can also watch on Netflix and you can get that podcast wherever you want, including on Netflix. Uh, wow. Thanks coming next week on the rewatchables. I have one more podcast coming on Thursday. Um, as we start to get ready, notice how I didn't talk about the Patriots really at all during this podcast. I was really proud of myself. I'm saving my thoughts. I'm listening. I'm listening. There's already been some disparaging comments made media circles.

1:51:01Bill Simmons:I'm hearing everything. We'll be talking about the Superbowl over the next week and a half. Anyway, I will see you in this feed on Thursday.

1:51:36Bill Simmons:99-7777 or visit ccpg.org slash chat in Connecticut or mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24-7 support in Massachusetts or call 877-8HOPE-NY or text HOPE-NY in New York. This episode is brought to you by TaxAct. Like an expert coach, TaxAct offers step-by-step guidance and guaranteed accuracy when filing taxes. Get tips along the way, add expert assist to talk to tax experts and let our experts do your taxes for you with expert full service. Tax Act helps you find the deductions and credits you deserve so you can get them over with.

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