Why Brunson Is Top 50 All Time, a Finals Mega-Mailbag, and NBA Fake Trade Season With Joe House

23:42It feels like Milwaukee wants a full rebuild, right? They want to come up with some combination of draft picks and or very young players, you know, players brand new to the league. And is the Clippers the right conduit to that? I mean, it feels like there needs to be a fourth team almost.

24:00Bill Simmons:Well, let me ask you, do you think if you're the Clippers and you have Kawhi and you have Garland and you have a little more of a veteran team, you're probably on a little bit of a shelf life with Kawhi, not just contractually, but just with him as an impact guy, he's 34. If you were able to turn that fifth pick into Jalen or somebody like Jalen, is the fifth pick worth more or less than that? Because I think you can make a case Jalen... being one of the top 12 players in the league, second team all NBA last year, coming off a career year, is probably worth more than the fifth pick by himself.

24:36Bill Simmons:But if I'm the Clippers, I can get... Jalen, it's an impossible contract. That's the thing that... How could the Clippers possibly... It's three years, like 60 million a year, basically. But the Clippers are under the cap now. Garland's at like 36, 37. Kawhi is close to a max, but they have a bunch of other stuff after that. They have to extend Matherin, don't they? Or just let him go. Or he's in the trades. you know interesting i still like matherin and if you're the bucks and you like could i sell that to my fans that i traded yannis but i got the fifth pick back and i said the 10th pick now i have five and ten in an awesome draft is that enough well you and i both love a cuff probably the most

25:22Bill Simmons:huh boy by the way there's a lot of buzz on him just killing these workouts and teams being like holy shit we need one or two more assets for for milwaukee i agree i feel like well we'll see what happens um i'm really excited to see how all this plays up this is great what a monday after the finals let's go um we're gonna take a break we're gonna come back and we're gonna talk about jay Brunson and the pyramid right after this. This episode is brought to you by Uber Eats. This summer soccer is here. The watch parties will be spectacular and they'll be going every day back to back to back. Don't worry.

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26:42Bill Simmons:Exclusions may apply. All right, so I wrote my basketball book in 2009, spent three years on it. Joe House was one of my conciliaries and one of the gimmicks, which was an idea initially from my buddy Gus's dad, Wally Ramsey, still kicking it in his mid-90s. Shout out to Wally, who always thought the Hall of Fame should be a pyramid. I wrote a column about this or another column about this, eventually built the basketball around it. Five levels. And as the levels go higher and higher, we then get the true flavor of who mattered the most with the top level being the Pantheon. The biggest thing as we talked about all this stuff, trying to figure out why guys matter, why people should have been underrated, overrated, just trying to measure impact.

27:32Bill Simmons:Could you win a title with this guy? we always gravitated to the actual titles. Did this guy carry a team to a title? Did this guy do everything it took? Would you rather have 15 years of somebody who was really, really good and made a bunch of all-NBA teams and brought you to the precipice, but you couldn't win a title if he was your best guy? Or would you rather have a shorter window with somebody who, his peak, you could win the title with them? And we always gravitated to that as we talked about it. And that's why somebody like Bill Walton, who really had the 77 Blazers run, they win the title.

28:10Bill Simmons:He's the MVP of the next year, even though he gets here near the end. He's hurt for the rest of his career and then is the sixth man on the 86 Celtics. So has basically three moments. And I still had him in the top 35 in my book. I can't remember where he landed exactly, but it was like, I know for that one year, Bill Walton, I can win a title with him. So now you have Jalen Brunson, who's never been a first team all NBA guy. who had no MVP votes this year at all. And yet he just dragged the team to the NBA title house. He did something that a bunch of great guards were never able to do. He did something that James Harden, as a starter on his own team, never even made the finals and fell short over and over again.

28:55Bill Simmons:Steve Nash, who was an unbelievable player, two-time MVP, threw no fault of his own, could never quite get the team there. Chris Paul finally did it in the 2021 finals late in his career, but they lost Jason kid, two straight finals, but he lost. And then finally gets one later as a, as a role player starter on Dallas. What Brunson did was up there with Dwayne Wade in 2006. Um, it was up there with Walton in 77. Um, you can go on through, but we're just dragging a team to the finals. And he is somebody that I never in a million years would have thought would make the pyramid that I sent you a piece of as I keep always work on the rankings.

29:39Bill Simmons:I'm going to start here. I think he has to be one of the top 50 players of all time though. And I don't think it's debatable. So your initial thoughts on that? Yeah. So I want to gently push back. You said twice that he dragged the team to the, Now, we have to recognize the greatness of Carl Anthony Towns, the contribution of OGN Noby. One of the best secret teams we've had in a long time. Conceding all that. But you know what really helped? Anytime they were down in the end of games, down 9, down 10, down 14, Jalen Brunson would just figure out how to get offense for them. And not just figure out, but by design.

30:17Like this is part of the brilliance of the front office of Leon Rose and World Wide West in assembling a team and ultimately arriving on a Jalen Brunson centric end of game phenomenon. And it's truly a phenomenon. I couldn't get in touch with the Ringer research staff to go back to the point where we measure, okay, all the guys are together. How many times did this group in this combination come back from double-digit deficits in a second half and win games in the regular season and in the playoffs? But we do know that in these playoffs, they went 6-2, the greatest accomplishment in a playoff run in terms of being down double digits and coming back and winning games in the play-by-play era.

31:06One of the great live bet teams in the history of any sport. Exactly right. He was the leading scorer on a team that had the best point differential in playoff history. The leading scorer was Jalen Brunson, and the Knicks are on top of that mountain. Go ahead.

31:26Bill Simmons:No, no, it's good. I was going to say a big part of my book which was basically the premise of it, was Isaiah saying the secret of basketball is it's not about basketball. It's about all the other stuff. It's about selflessness. It's about putting ego aside. It's about how you connect with your teammates, the chemistry you have, your ability to galvanize everybody around you. Brunson had all of this. Yes. In one of the best possible ways as a guard, I truly don't think he had ego. I think he just wanted to win and he wanted to prove everyone wrong and he didn't care how they did it. But over and over again, he was their best option because he was the guy over and over again who could create the best offense for them.

32:07Bill Simmons:And he got better when it mattered. He never got tired. He played 39 minutes a game in the finals. As a small guy, the stuff that he did was inconceivable. And what he did in game five, I'm just going to say it, like the more I look at it and stare at it, I think is one of the great finals games. Like, you know, Jordan, game six, 98 is the greatest game I've ever seen anyone play. When you consider Pippen's hurt, Rodman's a mess. Like you basically, he had to control the pace in every moment of that game. And then what he did in the last minute, you know, basket, steal basket to end it. But the Brunson thing was pretty close.

32:44Bill Simmons:Like Towns being in foul trouble, they're covering OG on the corner threes. And there were multiple moments where the game was going to get away from them. And he just wouldn't let it happen. and especially in the second half, he was just like, all right, I'm just going to keep scoring and let us hang around and the Spurs are going to fold. So I value that more than anything. And maybe I overrate it with the pyramid, but you seem to agree with me. Of course. I mean, this is the funny thing. The league invented an award, the clutch player of the year for as a regular season award. It's only been around for four years.

33:17He won it. I mean, he's one of the four guys that won it. Now, De 'Aaron Fox did win it also. So I don't know. Yeah, but it's regular season, you know? It is regular season, but this is one of the themes of when we've gotten together, you know, we've talked about this is the DNA of this particular Knicks team, the particular run that they are on. They just never concede anything in any kind of deficit, second half. It doesn't matter. And that's a regular season and postseason trait for this team. And the tip of the spear is Brunson. Brunson. We really haven't seen a guy that fits his, to your point, his stature, but also, I mean, he's in that class of who do you trust to go get a bucket right now or to make the best basketball play right now.

34:04His 30-foot shot over Wemby at the end of game four was the right basketball play. Him getting that shot up immediately created an advantage for the Knicks that they, He recognized it as the double team came over, as Fox came over to double. That created an advantage. Like even a missed shot is the right basketball play. And that's the thing that we're looking for a historic, how do we put him in a place in the history of the league amongst the all-time greats? And where you have him feels right to me.

34:35Bill Simmons:He's probably the toughest guy in the league. Is that fair? Sure. tougher guy in the league right now? I mean, he did withstand some injury scare at the very beginning of the series. And Wemby getting in his landing space in game five, it's just like, I think that guy could have had a high ankle sprain, whatever, and he just would have been like, I'll deal with it later. He's the mentally toughest guy in the league, which I think Curry's up there. There's been some great players over the years. But for right now, the mantle of, I just trust him the most. It doesn't matter where he's playing. On top of taking the responsibility of 53 years, which is like, you know, when this happened for the Red Sox, it was really Ortiz, right?

35:27Bill Simmons:And it was a bunch of guys and there were a million heroes in that from Derek Lowe to even Curtis Laskanik coming in and getting three outs at the perfect time. But it was ultimately Ortiz and the entire Red Sox fan base going, this makes no sense. We lose all the time. We haven't won in 86 years. Something bad's going to happen. The other shoe is going to drop. We're going to get kicked in the teeth. And just kind of looking over at Ortiz and being like, but he doesn't seem scared. And we have this guy and the Yankee fans seem scared of him. And that's what Brunson did for this Knicks team. Like as great as OG was, and we'll talk about him in the mailbag, Towns, Bridges, like their bench guys, everybody chipped in, which was a great thing about this team.

36:08Bill Simmons:But ultimately to flip history, you have to have a guy who's, who's just completely different. And I, so when I think of him historically, even though he's never been in a top five all NBA guy, um, I think he has to be in the top 50 now. And what gets interesting is when you start comparing him. So I got an email from Harry who said, did he just, did Jalen just set the record for biggest historical leapfrog in NBA history? What was the biggest jump in one post season? really you have to say by an older player. Brunson's been in the league eight years. So I think one guy I was thinking was Kawhi in 2019.

36:49I'm told you, of course, of course you and I immediately, that's the first guy that comes to my mouth is Kawhi in 2019. Amazing.

36:56Bill Simmons:Because I wouldn't have, I wouldn't have, I don't think Kawhi in the pyramid. Right. He would have been in the honorable mention with a chance. Sure. But then that 2019 playoffs ended and it's like, well, he's down in the top 40. I got to figure out the rankings now because this is what he just did was nuts. Yeah. Finals MVP for two different teams. And dragged. He dragged Toronto. Oh, yeah. Well, Dirk's the best example for a late, late career guy because Dirk was in the 1997 draft. He won that finals in 2011. So he's year 14. I had him 39th in my book, which came out before the 2011 title, right?

37:36Bill Simmons:so then he wins the title it's like well now you're moving up buddy here i have a little i have a little suite uh right underneath the penthouse for you so he's you know i think i have him in the 21 22 range now and then you have the younger guys like sga that they win the title they jump up but that's a little more common the brunson thing i wouldn't i wouldn't even had him honorable mention until these playoffs like i understand yeah he just i mean he didn't have the credentials yet. Right. And, and he's only halfway through his career. I mean, he's only 29. He should play another seven or eight years.

38:10There's a chance to bump it. Yeah. So just enhancing the overall career resume. So if you go in the top 50, where just so people know, like

38:21Bill Simmons:there's, you know, Clyde Drexler I have in the mid fifties, Gary Payton. These are guys that were the best player in finals teams who had a bunch of all NBAs and really good careers, but we just had a lot of players since I did the book. We've had, you know, almost two decades worth of more seasons and more great players in level three. So it goes level one, level two, level three, which was no doubt about it. Hall of Famers who ranked among the best for a few years with every requisite resume statistic to match. No MVP winner can drop below level three, unless there's a fantastic reason. Unfortunately, that's Derek Rose.

38:57Bill Simmons:But had Iverson at 52, who I think you and I ride for maybe a little more than others historically, but it's really just the 2001 playoffs and really no success postseason-wise other than that. But you go down and there's this whole bunch of guards that Brunson is in the middle of now, historically. Luka Doncic, George Girvin James Harden Sam Jones so I'm going to ride for it to the death because he was the best big game guard of the first basically 40 years of the league other than Jerry West Jason Kidd Steve Nash and Walt Frazier I have all those guys in the 40s and you could argue about the order but they're all there they all have the all-MBAs Frazier has the 70 and 73 finals Frazier was top five first, top five, first team on NBA four times.

39:51Bill Simmons:Nash had the two MVPs. Kidd was an MVP runner-up, but dragged those two Nets teams to the finals, which mattered. Then he won a title. And was, Jason Kidd was just awesome. Like, the stats aren't going to be kind to him because of the three-point shooting and the field goal percentage, but we were there. Well, he made threes. It'll be a three-point shooting percentage thing to knock him, but made threes. It's the top five in the history of the league. But for years, he was 29%, 30%. And he was the best defensive player of all these guys other than Frazier. Sam Jones was 10 championships. He had three, he had, I think a couple of NBAs.

40:31Bill Simmons:Oh, there it is. Three top tens. But was the key guy in those wrestle teams in the 60s because they needed somebody to basically do the Brunson at the end of the games. Harden gets, Harden was MVP, three-time runner-up MVP. six top five, three 13-mile NBAs. He was runner-up for MVP three times and averaged 36 a game winner. His statistical resume is just overwhelming. And it's basically the Carl Malone situation. I don't know what to do with Harden. Yeah, well, I mean, here's the thing. And I spent some time with, what do they call basketball reference now? Is it basketball stat head? Stat head basketball?

41:14Stat head as well.

41:15Bill Simmons:Yeah, it's part of basketball reference. Yeah. if you side by side, James Harden and Charles Barkley, you would be surprised. Yeah. I think we've had now 25 or 30 years of Charles in our lives and the cultural force. He's an icon. He's an NBA icon. I have Barkley much higher than these guys. You do. Yeah. He was in the mid twenties for me when I did the book. Right. It's going to be tough. I think as we try and process the NBA from this era and going forward, what do we do with a player like James Harden? And how do you contextualize his inability? He's only been to one finals. He was coming off the bench for Oklahoma City.

42:06Yeah, he never made the finals as a starter.

42:09Bill Simmons:He was one in four in conference finals in general. He's 17 and 17 in playoff series. And, you know, one of the conference finals he made, they benched him against the Clippers in game six and came back with the bench guys when the game was over. Like he was about to get bounced in that. But, you know, this is one of those cases where sadly we were there. Right. Statistical resume was there. But ultimately, the number one value we have with all this stuff is how did you perform when it truly mattered did you understand the secret could you elevate your team around you and he just could never do it really at any point in his career right Barkley is a good example because the 93 sons um they come as close as you're going to get to winning the title and they lose to the best player of all time who's at his absolute fucking apex right that's the only reason he didn't win the title and I I don't know how much I can hold that against him because I don't feel like I feel like he did everything possible in that finals.

43:09Bill Simmons:And we know what happened. Kevin Johnson stunk in those first two games. Yeah. That's why they lost the finals. The Bulls team was kind of ready to be beaten. The question with Harden, and obviously you and I share the same kind of perspective on him. We've watched it like he was he was there present for us and in all of our NBA hoops fandom. You know, he's been in our lives for so long, will history be more gracious towards him? Like it's happening with Carl Mullen right now, basketball-wise, not personality, personal-wise. Well, right, because the era in which Harden, Harden in the West against the teams that he went up against, not being able to topple Golden State, catching the end of the Spurs run, you know is it can we legitimately pin responsibility on him for the for his inability to take a team i think we can in 18 and 19 okay um because 18 was sitting there for them and they didn't win and basically because he didn't do the have the jalen brunson game 19 durant's out yeah and they have six at home against curry and curry has what two points in the first half or one point, I can't remember.

44:29Bill Simmons:And Golden State's ready to be taken down and they just couldn't do it. The fundamental question here, because George Girvin's another one. I have him and Harden right next to each other. Very similar careers. And Girvin's big moment was the 1979 Eastern Conference Finals against your beloved Washington Bullets. Up 3-1 in the series and can't close them. And if he gets to that, if he gets to that finals and they're probably favored to, to beat Seattle at that point. And they win the tech. Like it's like, it's a complete, but fundamentally this comes down to this.

45:07Bill Simmons:You're the, you're a Washington fan. I'm giving you the ability. You can have Harden or Brunson for their entire careers. From what you've just witnessed, which guy would you rather have? And we don't know how it's going to end with Brunson. He's only been in the league eight years. But your whole goal is, I just want to win the title. Are you taking James Harden or are you taking Jalen Brunson? I mean, it's a no-brainer. It's easy. Flags fly forever. The only thing that matters is the chip. That's why the pyramid is tilted the way it's tilted. You have to have the rings. And it's not just Brunson delivering.

45:47It would be really curious how we would regard Iverson. Iverson took a team that really, you know, when you look back at that Sixers team, it's like, wow, look at the surrounding cast here.

45:59Bill Simmons:Built around all of his strengths and weaknesses. Right. If they had somehow pulled something out, that, you know, that, but Brunson's a different cat, a different animal altogether. He is such an important element of that cohesive team that the Knicks have built, and yet, when there's six minutes left in the game, and And the Knicks could be down a dozen points. You never, never, never think for a second that they don't have a chance to win as long as that dude has the ball in his hands and he's more healthy than not. You know what got lost in the Brunson celebration over these last two weeks?

46:38Bill Simmons:He was the one that got the ball in game two and Wemby threw it off Castle's back and got Wemby to foul him. Yes. Like that, the thing, one of the things with Brunson that I've appreciated. And remember, he missed one of the free throws, but go ahead. Yeah, he did. But one of the things I appreciate about him is it's like, oh, you got to pick on Brunson, pick on Brunson. Much like Jason Kidd and some of these other dudes is actually like sometimes an asset defensively. Like he's fucking annoying to play against. He's taking charges all the time. He's getting steals. He's in the right spots. But you look at his four years in the playoffs now, he's 29 a game.

47:16Bill Simmons:this is four years across the board like a lot of playoff games 29 a game 26 finals he was 33 4 and 5 put 39.2 minutes a game um it's just better than anything james harden ever did and it was a higher level than anything james harden ever did and i'm sorry and i i just if i if i could have either career for the same reason out of when i did my book i would rather have bill walton just so I could get those peaks versus David Robinson's entire career. I just would. Because at least my only thing I want is a title. And I just know that if I have that guy, I have a better chance. And that's not rings culture to me.

47:57Bill Simmons:It's more like that's why I'm not discounting Barkley because I don't feel like Barkley did everything he could have done and they probably should have won the 93 finals. And he went against a fucking comet that we've never seen in our lives. That's the only reason he'd win. And Carl Malone went against that same older version of the Comet and really fucked up in both finals. And not to mention some of the other stuff that happened. And it's hard to separate that from his history. So I do value that stuff because the only goal is to win the title. I don't care about your career. I care about your career in the context of did it produce championships and chances to win championships.

48:35So with Brunson, I don't know.

48:38Bill Simmons:So I have him at 40, which I sent to you. Yeah. My only quibble. Because it was in the vicinity of the Bill Walton range. And I think that's fair to put him near him. You had him one spot ahead of Frazier. I did. I think they should at least be tied until we get a little more. I'm happy to flip them. This is why I wanted to have you on. So you'd put, so that this opens the different conversation because greatest Nick of all time should probably have the higher pyramid ranking, right? Sure. And, and, and let's, I'll, I'm, I'm all ears. I'll listen to everybody, all the smart folks that will be doing this greatest Nick's of all time.

49:23It is appropriate for that conversation to be had. Now you, you saw, uh, Rick Brunson do the, well, Patrick Ewing's the greatest Nick. Um, when that was, you know, that was nice. I understand the gesture that they're making.

49:37Bill Simmons:The thing with Frazier, two titles, not one. Played one of the great game sevens ever in 1970. He matches Brunson there. 35-19. I think he had six steals. Demolished Jerry West. Then was probably the best defensive guard of the first 35 years of the league. Not to mention all the other stuff. His career was shorter because everyone's career was shorter back then. I'd love to see the guys now, do you think LeBron would have played 20, how many years does he have to? 23? Is he playing 23 years in Converse with no VersaClimber and flying coach? Guess what? He's not. So you got to factor that in too.

50:19Bill Simmons:All right. I'm fine with Frazier over Brunson, but Brunson has a chance to pass him with a couple more great seasons. He's sitting right there. He's only halfway through his career. Let's let him get there. So there will be now. Yeah, go ahead. I have them above Nash, Kidd, Sam Jones, Harden, Gurvin, and Luka. What's wrong with that? I'm just for the audience. Okay. And for Luka, the regular season resume is tremendous. Yes. He did make a finals. He did. He is the second highest career playoff average of all time, 30.9 points a game. he's six first team on base already and has a chance to if he can put it together for one year move into the top 2025 branch and it will be a combination of him and the right circumstances I mean you know it shouldn't be lost that that that the Brunson place in the in the pyramid is a testament to the front office of the Knicks taking the swing that they took.

51:25He wouldn't be in this place without the context.

51:28Bill Simmons:And just that people think this is reactionary or whatever, like this is how I did the book. I had Dwayne Wade, I think in the top 40, maybe even top 35, just because of what he did in the 2006 finals. Sure. That's it. You get a major bump if you pull that off on the biggest stage and you help drag your team to the title. So there's some centers ahead of Frazier and Brunson just because I think the center position was more important for a longer period of time with the league. Cowens, Willis Reed, David Robinson, Walton Barry. So I do have by the pyramid rankings, Willis Reed as the best Nick ever.

52:05Bill Simmons:But I don't know if I'm right. I just know from, he was the MVP of the league. Frazier and Brunson were never MVPs of the league. He went against all of these great centers during a time when you basically couldn't win the title or compete for one unless you had an awesome center. He's going against Kareem and Wilt and all these dudes. Like you kind of had to have that. So I had the Cowens, Reed, Robinson, Bill Walton all in a row. And then the two guards I have ahead of all of these guys, and I got to look at John Stockton again, because I'm trying to decide if I overrated him a little in my book, but I had right now I have Stockton 34 and Chris Paul 33 because of how long and ridiculous their careers are.

52:47Bill Simmons:And they were in finals and really guys I, you know, I thought had some, some bigger moments than James Harden, but that, that gets, that's where it gets tough. James Harden versus Stockton versus Chris Paul with Chris Paul. Really that 21 finals changed Chris Paul's legacy by about 10, 12 spots and and appropriately so um i do think when you sit down and do the side by side of harden and stockton it's really close it's a very like they're they're um whatever the comparability score is like they're they're they're really close those two when i did uh when i did the book i wrote about um i wrote about stockton why he couldn't get to level four why he was in level three and I think you're mentioned in this because it was like, here's the thing.

53:37Bill Simmons:He probably shouldn't be this high. Where did I have him? I had him. Jesus. I'm still, there he is. I had him 25 in the book. And I made all the cases for why maybe he shouldn't be there. But then it was the experience of watching him and how great he was and how he would always like just pick his, run the team, get everyone else involved for three and a half quarters, and then pick his spots and was a fucking assassin. I just don't feel like the stats can properly reflect that, the way he kind of carried the team. And you just kind of always knew he was lurking, and you always thought he was going to come through when it mattered.

54:19Right? Yeah. I wonder if, going back, are we misremembering how effective he was in the clutch versus Carl Malone? it's possible

54:31Bill Simmons:but this is what the further we get away from this stuff we always felt like Stockton was the good guy in that team and Carl Malone was the one you could get the 44 minutes out of and you didn't trust the last four we were probably too hard on Carl Malone I mean I created the whole 42 club so he would be discounted by the way Wemby missed the 42 club it worked again are you surprised? no me either Brunson Brunson didn't get there but really hard for guards to get there because they're on the rebounds. All right. So Jalen Brunson, 41 in the pyramid. Unbelievable. Great. Welcome aboard. What were the Fandul odds that have been on that before the playoffs?

55:08Bill Simmons:They wouldn't have given us odds, you know, 150 ,000 to one. All right. I'm going to take one more break and then we're doing a mailbag. For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters. Tremphaya offers self-injection or intravenous infusion from the start. Tremphaya is administered as injections under the skin or infusions through a vein every four weeks, followed by injections under the skin every four or eight weeks. If your doctor decides that you can self-inject Tremphaya, proper training is required. Tremphaya is a prescription medicine used to treat adults with moderately to severely active Crohn's disease and adults with moderately to severely active ulcerative colitis, serious allergic reactions, increased risk of infections or lower ability to fight them, and liver problems may occur.

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57:17Bill Simmons:Thanks to everybody who sent stuff in. Always really fun stuff to go through. Matt from New York wants to know, Jalen Brunson now has the number one Jalen spot on lock. There are four Jalens on all NBA teams. I'm requesting you to stop calling Jalen Brown just Jalen during podcasts because it's too confusing. So he's basically making the argument, we have all these Jalens. The only Jalen now should be Jalen Brunson and then everybody else, we should say their last names. But Jalen Williams is J-Dub. Jalen Brown becomes JB. Jalen Johnson now becomes Jalen Johnson or double J Jalen Dern is just Jalen Dern and Jalen Green's Jalen Green I'm fine with this I think Jalen Branson has assumed control of the name Jalen along with our buddy Jalen Rose Well, the original Jalen There's only one OG That's the original Jalen, Jalen Rose Sure, fine I can subscribe to this I feel like Jalen Brown's been JB for a little while now anyway It's been convenient to call him JB, but Alpha Jalen is Jalen Brunson.

58:22It's undeniable. My wife calls him Brunson burner.

58:27Bill Simmons:Brunson burner. Okay. Because when she would ever watch the finals and they would be down like nine, and she's like, did the Brunson burner heat up yet? I was like, it's pretty good. That's great. Really good. Joel, I didn't send you any of these, so you're reacting to these in the moment. Joel wants to know. The answer is most likely still no. but now it's more interesting. With Brunson winning championship finals MVP, is Dallas letting him walk now a worse decision than trading Luka? No. What's your case? It is a diabolical mismanagement to not get anything back, to have not, but nobody in the entire league forecasted this version of Brunson and think about all of the pieces that had to be put into place for us to achieve and realize this version of Brunson.

59:29Bill Simmons:Counter, we thought it was ridiculous in the moment that they weren't paying Brunson. We did. It was four years for$55 million. They should have done it without blinking. What the fuck were they doing? That's right. Mismanagement. Yes, it was a colossal blunder. The Luka trade led to Cooper Flagg. What did the Brunson trade lead to? or Brunson leaving? Luka. Luka-centric. Brunson led to eventually trading a first-round pick for Kyrie. They made the finals after he left. That's the problem. Because Brunson left, they went and traded for Kyrie. So that would be the case. I still think Luka's worse.

1:00:02Bill Simmons:Luka's worse. Here's the thing. As we discussed a hundred times, they didn't shop the Luka trade is what made it horrible. And they didn't shop it because if it came out, their fans would have rioted. That should be alone. why that's worse. Their fans did riot, too. Their fans weren't rioting after Jalen Brunson left, but they were upset that it was mismanaged. Yes. The Luka trade led to actual Dallas almost shutting down as a city. The league had to give them the number one overall pick. The league gave them Cooper flag. None of this was Mark Cuban's fault, though. Don't look at him. He was in charge of not giving Brunson the four for 55.

1:00:42Bill Simmons:He hired Nico Harrison. He did that. Who then traded Luka Doncic with the new owners that Mark Cuban sold the team to. But none of it's his fault. I don't know how all this happened. Unbelievable. He's done an unbelievable spin job. Reid wants to know, he said during the playoffs this year that Brunson isn't a top five player, but the Knicks built a perfect roster around him, complimenting his offense while compensating for his defensive limitations. Are there any other players on your you can't win if that guy is your best player list that you'd reconsider in that Brunson-led title team. So I will say this.

1:01:18Bill Simmons:I didn't have a Brunson as a top five player, but I do now. I handed in Ringer 100 and I had him fourth. I didn't put him ahead of Wemby and Joker and SGA, but you could make a case that he should have been. But I thought four seemed fair. It also was fair over the course of the regular season. I went back and looked at just the season rankings a handful of times where we're sharing lists and comparing notes and stuff. You had him 10 at different points during the regular season. You had him 12 at a moment or two. He was like 8 to 12 range for most of the season. That was all fine. Yeah. And he, you know, would he end up making the second team All-NBA or did he make third team?

1:01:57Second team. Second team. That's appropriate. Because of a couple entries. But yeah, that's all fair.

1:02:01Bill Simmons:So you can't win if that guy's your best player.

1:02:07Bill Simmons:The only names I wrote down were Devin Booker and Jalen Brown. Oh, wow. I went through the Ring of 100 and I was trying to figure out, because the natural inclination of this is like, could you win a title now with Trey Young? It's like, I don't think so. I think it is. This is at the moment. This right now. Right now at the moment. We're not talking about two years ago or. Talking about right now at this moment. I was going to include Joel Embiid, but that's obviously ludicrous now. I think that's okay. I think you could include that because that would seem improbable now, but also conceivable, right?

1:02:44Bill Simmons:Jalen as the guy, because ultimately what we're talking about here is I have a good team built around this one central force who will be able to get me baskets when I need them the most. This is the reason the Spurs didn't win. They couldn't get baskets when they needed them the most. Ultimately, that's why they lost. Booker, I think, is a really good one because I think his stock has slipped a little bit. And I'm sure Phoenix is now looking at what just happened with the Knicks being like, we could do this here with Booker. We could build the same type of team over the next two, three years of chemistry, the secret.

1:03:22Bill Simmons:We just learned the secret from Kevin Durant and Bradley Beal with not to do. And let's build a team around Booker and he can be our Brunson. The only other one I was mildly intrigued by but feel free to talk me out of this in two seconds. Shangoon. I don't think he's good enough. Yeah, that's where I landed. But I thought about it in my head. I think that's the best kind of asset guy right now who I feel like somebody could get. Like if I was Milwaukee, I would be looking at him. I thought he was in the worst possible city. He had no fucking point guard last year on a team that had no three-point shooting and had Kevin Durant with a burner scandal It will always go down as one of the most curious set of decisions by the Houston Rockets for a team that seemed so prepared coming into the season.

1:04:14And as soon as FVV got hurt over the summer, it's like they went into some kind of lockdown mode. I don't understand it. You had a catastrophic thing happen. You were completely loading up. You had the head coach in place with Ime. You brought Duran in. That's the thing. They had Duran in. So why are you tossing away the air? Right. Just nothing. We're just going to tread water and see if we can pull something out of our butts. So weird to me.

1:04:46Bill Simmons:He turns 24 in July. Last season, he was 29 and six assists a game. Shot 52%. Without a point guard. I don't know. I feel like there's more there. Shangoon plus two picks to Milwaukee. Now you're talking. Like, reminder to... If I'm Milwaukee, I would rather have Shangoon and other stuff for Giannis than that weird Miami offer. Here's a bunch of our guys from our 41 win team. And some non-lottery, non-top-10 picks. There's literally nothing coming out of Miami that's of any interest whatsoever. Like, I love Bam. Bam's good, but that's a bad... That's an average basketball team. If Milwaukee called you and said Shangoon for Jabari, but you got to say yes right now and you have to take back kuzma the deal would you do it wait wait wait shangoon for who for jabari smith and shangoon for yannis and houston would also have to take kyle kuzma's expiring as part of the deal so kuzma and yannis for shangoon and jabari smith could would you rather have that than the miami offer a thousand percent not even close to me I think I would too.

1:05:59Bill Simmons:Jason from Ohio wants to know, after seeing the love and affection New York City's had for Brunson as the star that finally brought them the championship, which player do you think has the most regret for not going to the Knicks and ending the drought when they had a chance? Is it LeBron, KD, or someone else? So this was the case. I remember writing a piece about this in 2010. that 2010, think about that. Yep. 2010, saying this was the all-time move for any NBA player. They had 16 more years of sadness after that. But we were saying like, this is the move for LeBron and Wade. You win a title in New York.

1:06:39Bill Simmons:That's the greatest thing you can do in the league. Right. They ended up not going there. There's a lot of reasons for that, including the Knicks seemed like kind of a mess. Donnie Walsh in the wheelchair. They made some weird Sopranos video, all that stuff. And then KD and Kyrie, in the summer of 2019, KD's coming off the Achilles. Kyrie wants to get out of Boston. KD wants to be in New York with Rich Kleiman and their whole business. I was doing pods saying, because I knew they were going to be in New York. I was like, he's going to the Knicks. They're going to be in New York. Not realizing that they were picking Brooklyn and not New York.

1:07:16Bill Simmons:Which one is worse to you? LeBron and Wade not going there or KD and Kyrie? I'm going to say Katie and Kyrie just because the, um, the East is so was so gettable. Like you could fast forward right into a bunch of finals, like a string of, of finals appearances with the, you know, the talent that, that they could have had in place there in, in, in, uh, in New York. I mean, you know, the big what if is the injury situation or surrounding Kyrie. Would he have gotten hurt with that same kind of frequency? I mean, you remember Durant was, you know, the only guy out of Harden, Kyrie, the only one that was healthy.

1:08:00They were a 17 win team heading into that free agency.

1:08:04Bill Simmons:Led by Tim Hardaway Jr., Kevin Knox, Dennis Smith, Emmanuel Moutier. Ennis Cantor. It was a great tank job. Noah Vonley. They were tanking. They tanked. Frank Nulinka. They were going for the Zion sweepstakes. Mitchell Robinson was there. Luke Cornett was there. But they went to the Nets and made them kind of clear the house and do the whole thing. It's a really interesting KD what if. I don't know if they win the title with him, but think about how he is considered right now versus if they had gone him and Kyrie together to the Knicks, rejuvenated MSG. Maybe Leon comes with West the next year anyway.

1:08:47Bill Simmons:Builds the right team around them. Wow. And maybe this all happens for those two guys. It is a pretty good what if. That's a great one because think of that, right? The magnetism of those two guys coming and what that does in terms of the incentive for other people in the league. Everybody loves the bright lights of MSG. Everybody wants to be the king of New York. Those guys' miscalculation was that Brooklyn was going to be a thing. Brooklyn is never going to be a thing. It's not a thing now. It wasn't a thing back then, and it's never going to be a thing. Think about the next four East title winners after that, after they went to Brooklyn.

1:09:25Bill Simmons:Exactly. 2020, Miami, unbelievable COVID season. 2021, Milwaukee, which was a good team. I mean, Middleton, that was the best year he's had. Drew Holiday, Giannis. They had their role players. Connaughton was good that year. 2022 a very young Celtics team that probably wasn't ready not ready 2023 the heat again like KD Kyrie and a couple other people could happen now Kyrie did get a little little cuckoo there for a couple years and I think all kinds of stuff yeah and I think he settled into a better much better place I actually like everything that that Kyrie is saying and doing the last couple years but he It was getting a little weird there.

1:10:10We're going to have a new round of Kyrie sweepstakes this upcoming season. It's going to be one of the fun storylines this summer.

1:10:16Bill Simmons:Maybe at least the KD staying there and Brunson moving in there. Who knows? But it is a pretty good match. James, who says, love the pod. Thanks, James. With Brunson winning a title in NYC, my friends and I, New York natives, have been debating who is the top dog of the city. The debate falls largely on Jeter versus Brunson while Frazier etched in stone. I introduced the backroom theory. essentially Jeter and Brunson walk into a restaurant at the same time. Who does the owner give the back room to? This is a, this is a great way of framing Brunson versus Jeter. And I'm going to throw Aaron judge in there too.

1:10:50Bill Simmons:Let's say Aaron judge is there too. And all of them, there's one back room for 10, 10 seats. Who gets it? I think Brunson gets it now. You don't think the owner says, guys, can we share? Would you, would you guys be willing to share? Each of them have nine people with them. Well, some of the, Some of them, like, you know, I would be, it would be like you and I don't know who your equivalent is going in there. And then, and then I, like I, if I, I would get kicked out, like some of the entourage has to go sit out. No, they would see you and be like, oh, Joe house is here. That's going to run the bill up by$2 ,000.

1:11:24Bill Simmons:Fair enough. Fair enough. I think it's Brunson. I think Jeter lost his spot. He had it for, from the late nineties to now. I think it's over. There's a generation. I, I, we should ask Jacko. I feel like there might be a generation now that might not remember the greatness of Derek Jeter. Is that possible? It's a long time. Yeah. His last World Series, they won in 2000 and then they had the tainted 2009 title. Here's a great one. Scott Cameron. By the way, Judge wins the World Series and now him versus Brunson is an argument, but he has. Scott Cameron writes Brunson just became only the third under six foot three guard along with Isaiah and Gus Williams to be the best player in a title team.

1:12:12Bill Simmons:Where does that put him in the small guard pantheon? I bring this question up and I'll answer it in a second. I left out Gus Williams last weekend and I feel really bad about that. He also wasn't in the pyramid of my book. Um, and I feel bad about that too. And I think it's one of my big misses because I went back and made a playoff MVP list at one point. I think he was the 79 playoff MVP. He was the best guy in the 79 champs. He averaged 26.7 points a game during that playoffs. He has a first team on the second and two thirds. He was fifth in MVP voting in 82. He made finals, finals, Eastern Conference finals, three straight years, held out 80, 81.

1:12:53Bill Simmons:he's the best point guard in the league from 78 to 82 for five years he's the best point guard in the league and then magic takes it um and then ends up on your beloved wizards team but i i feel like i've done a bad job keeping the gusts legacy alive i know you loved him too yeah for sure and and when you do the the resume um it's just that that was such a quiet moment for the league right i know and i think i penalized them for that yeah and it was like walton wasn't there it's like you can't do it. So if you're going to praise Brunson, you can't just discount Gus Williams, you know? So I feel like I did a bad job.

1:13:28Bill Simmons:Anyway, the, uh, small guard Pantheon, it's Brunson, Isaiah, Gus Williams, and Tony Parker with titles. Okay. And then Iverson and Dame and Chris Paul. Wait, where's tiny Archibald in this? No, tiny can be there too. I'm just saying those are the four guys with titles. So I think if you're doing a Pantheon, small guard pantheon you do the titles and non-titles so maybe the non-titles is iverson dame chris paul tiny archibald okay okay although tiny archibald did win a title in 1981 so maybe he should be on there too um it's to me it's brunston and isaiah but i think gus williams as the i think that's you got to start with those three and i i again apologies to gus Ethan wants to know where I planned on putting OG and Anobi in my ringer top 100 that there's a case that he should be top 25 or higher best non-center defender in the league really good offense if you secured your number one awesome superstar isn't he the perfect number two perfect compliment all time winning basketball player coming off a great playoffs I handed my ringer 100 I had OG 17th Oh my God.

1:14:45Yeah. What?

1:14:46Bill Simmons:Yeah. Wow. Yeah. You know what I like house winning. Is he, is he ahead of cat in, in what you just handed in? You know, we're at cat 11th. Oh, okay. All right. All right. I mean, all right. Okay, fine. Yeah. I only probably next in the top 20 and I think that's the right call. Yeah. Again, when I was looking at over the course of the regular season, OG was always in the, like the, the 40 range. Now, he was consistently ahead of De 'Aaron Fox, which I felt I was glad that, you know, to look at the rankings and see that. But the only thing ever with OG is availability. Like, you know, it's just the injury stuff.

1:15:25Now, congrats to the Knicks. We even felt in the playoffs. Of course. Of course. That's right. Congrats to the Knicks. Congrats to OG that we got all the way through. He was able to get himself completely healthy for the finals run. It was a thrill to see him at his peak, his basketball IQ. This is the thing that we should also laud this Knicks team for. The reason that they had the highest point differential is because they had the highest level of decision makers. Yes, Kett with the dumb foul trouble would always be something that you can point to. I would also say that he was getting picked on.

1:16:03I mean, the two fouls at the beginning of game four were to me ludicrous. But look, that's setting all that aside. OG is just...

1:16:13Bill Simmons:How about the OG fifth foul in game five? They didn't even replay that, I don't think. No, I know, I know. Scott Foster's like, yeah, fifth foul. An all-time big brain, OG. So great. Congrats. Great job. Matt from LA wrote that, I said OG is the best 3 and D guy of the era. And he's like, what about early Spurs Kawhi Leonard? Best defensive player in the league. sat in the corner, shot threes, crashed a glass. So I was looking at the three, three and D only really goes back to 2009. Trevor Ariza was the first like impactful and it was really only in the finals, but had a really good three and D finals.

1:16:51Bill Simmons:It was the first time Posey was in there. There was a couple like, sure, three and D adjacent, but not like what we have now. I was looking, I went through all the title teams trying to figure out the best. Like there's 2023 KCP. There's a couple of Danny greens, but they're all like 11 points a game in that range and didn't take a lot of field goals. It is 14 Kauai and 26 OG. These are the playoff stats. Right. OG was 20 points a game, 20.1 points a game. His percentages were 56 field goal, 49, three 85 free throw. He only took 11.6 field goal attempts a game and average 20.1 points. 2014 Kauai, 14 points a game, 10.4 field goal attempts only one less shot a game 51-42-74 percentages so they're around the same it's just he took less threes than OG did but it's a good one now Kawhi was guarding LeBron OG I guess was guarding the guards on the spur he didn't have a LeBron type assignment but they're 1A and 1B Kawhi won the finals MVP OG had the most famous play in basketball in the last 10 years.

1:18:04Bill Simmons:Yeah, let's just have them side by side. Yeah, I think it's side by side. I don't want to pick between that. Okay. I'm glad you agree. A couple more Brunsons. This is from D-Bob in New York. Okay, D. Brunson and the Knicks are now the 19 out of 80 champs not to have a top five player. 26 Knicks, 14 Spurs, 04 Pistons, 88 and 89 Pistons, 79 sonics 78 bullets 73 nicks and he threw the 48 bullets in there for us thank you d-bob um basically he's saying going by mvp votes or first team he suggests can we have a can we get rid of the can't win a title without a top five player role if nine of 80 champions didn't have a top five player.

1:18:56Bill Simmons:That's like 14%. My counter is that I would argue Brunson now is a top five player and maybe he doesn't count for this one. 14 Spurs was really the last one where we were like, I don't even know who do they have a top 10 player. But I think Brunson, it's Joker, SGA, Brunson, Wemby, and Luka, probably in that order. Or Wemby over Brunson, however you want to do it. But those are the five best players in the league right now. True. Yes. But do you think, are you ready to dump that rule though? Because that did make me think. No, because it's 86 % accurate. Right the other way. I was thinking about doing a playoff manifesto.

1:19:36Bill Simmons:I was going to do a playoff manifesto for basketball next year. And I think that would be one of, like their suggestions, they're not set in stone, but I think that is a good one to look at because that is once a decade. Yeah, right. There you go. Once a decade. So once a decade, something weird happens. It's basically the way to look at it. Jonathan, New Jersey wants to know, wants us to know, guess who has the most playoff wins for a player since 2021? It's no longer Brown or Tate or Marnie Celtic. It's Jalen Brunson at 51. Wow. Greatest playoff performer of the decade so far. That helps the, uh, the pyramid case.

1:20:09Bill Simmons:All right. We're going to take one more break and then I have a lot of Spurs fan, Spurs emails that you're going to enjoy. Oh boy. This episode is brought to you by Google Chrome. You think you know a browser, But Gemini and Chrome? That's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web. Like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50-page restoration block. Or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for it. Ready to make anything online make sense? There's no place like Chrome. Check responses set up required. Compatibility and availability varies 18+.

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1:21:09Bill Simmons:David wants to know, game five, did the rich New York asshole of fans just indecent proposal of the entire city of San Antonio?

1:21:19wait a minute walk me through it

1:21:22Bill Simmons:remember the proposal Redford, Woody Harrelson and Demi Moore need money they're in Vegas gambling and Robert Redford becomes infatuated with Demi Moore and he's like I'll pay you a million dollars for a night with your wife and then they argue about it and decide to do it and she does it that's basically all the Spurs fans with their game 5 tickets there's 45 % Nick fans there Now, you're able to pay for your season tickets by doing it, but I do like the indecent proposal game. It's a pretty funny way to do game five. Really good. Mike G wants to know, 2026 Knicks, best example of the secret since the 14 Spurs.

1:22:04Bill Simmons:How many other teams would you say fully embodied the secret as well?

1:22:13Bill Simmons:I thought the 16 Cavs kind of got there sure sure I mean I really respect the last I know there was Draymond's suspension but winning that game seven in Golden State and Richard Jefferson and Kevin Love like playing I don't think they got there the whole playoffs but I think they got there in those last three games but every team embraces it to some degree the 14 Spurs is the most famous one, I think, in the last 12. Sure, that's fine. And the 11 Mavs I would put up there too. We're really splitting fine hairs to me because every one of the 23 Nuggets. Yeah, 23 Nuggets is a good one. Yeah, that's pretty good.

1:22:54They really understood. And Joker is the facilitator of the secret, right? Who do you want touching the ball to administer the secret? 17 Warriors had it.

1:23:05Bill Simmons:The thing is, every champion has the secret to some degree. There's two teams that feel like they won because of the secret in the last 13 years. The Knicks and the Spurs. I'll accept that. One of the top two reasons they won. Fine. I think 11 Mavs are up there. I would put the 0-4 Pistons there. Good. Agree. That's probably it. That's fine.

1:23:34Bill Simmons:Travis from San Antonio said, salty Spurs fan here. Watching Fox in the finals was as painful as it can get. It had me wondering what are the worst finals performances from the highest paid guy on the team? I did not send this to you. I did the research though. Fox was 13, three and six. He shot 34%, 25 % from three. got torched by Brunson on the other end and then had the game four brain fart. I'm not ready to put 2016 Curry in there. I do think some people would. 23 a game. He was 40 and 40, 40, 89 shooting splits. He played a bad game seven. I don't think he was bad for the series.

1:24:24Bill Simmons:These five, I think, are in the combo. Um, um, I'll go backwards from furthest away. 1993, Kevin Johnson mentioned earlier, 17 points a game. Just absolutely murdered them in the first two games. It's got to the point where Frank Johnson seemed like a better option for him in the series. I remember this, yes. My mind went there immediately. Stats backed it up. Nick Anderson with the four free throws that he missed. For the series, 12 points a game, 36 % shooting, three for 10 free throws. And just got wiped out. So he has to be mentioned. There's a great, this one got lost to history, but Kevin Martin, I'm sorry, Kenyon Martin in the 2003 finals against Duncan when Duncan ran amok and one of the great start to finish seasons anyone's had.

1:25:09Bill Simmons:He destroyed Kenyon Martin the first couple games of this series. Kenyon Martin for the series was 14 and 10, 34 % field goals. We made a lot of jokes as it was happening. I don't think it was really his fault though. He got destroyed by that. He took a lot of shit that series. I'm just saying. I know, but. He was going against Tim Duncan, the seven best player of all time. Kobe Bryant, 2004 finals against the Pistons. Oh, wow. That's funny. Of course you had to do that. You're not. The premise here, though, was like the highest paid. It's not just naming famous guys. Worst finals performance from highest paid guys.

1:25:50Bill Simmons:So that Kenny Martin was the highest paid guy in that net state. Yeah, for sure. Okay, I get that. But Kobe in 2004. Okay. All right. Can I give you the stats? Go ahead. They lost in five. 46 minutes a game. 23 points a game. Three assists a game. 38 % shooting. 17 % from three. It was three for 23 from three. And kind of got his ass kicked by the Pistons. Now, the Laker fans, I've heard the spin from the Laker fans on this. Shaq was out of shape. Yes. Kobe had to take a lot of shots near the end of shot clock positions. I'm just saying. He has to be mentioned. But the worst one ever is LeBron in 2011.

1:26:35Bill Simmons:Oh, wow. Okay. Yeah. Okay. All right. He dipped down. He was like a 27, 28 points a game guy. He dipped down to 18 a game. 18, 7 and 7, 32 % from three, 12 for 20 from the free throw line and famously had the eight point game in game four. He was being guarded by J.J. Barea and really felt like he melted down in a bunch of different ways to a point that we started to wonder, is this going to happen? Do we put too much pressure on him? Then he bounces back the next year and goes on his run. But I think that's probably the worst one other than Nick Anderson. What would you say? Well, was Nick Anderson at that point?

1:27:17That's the other one. He was paid at the top of that Orlando team?

1:27:22Bill Simmons:Nick Anderson was not and he shouldn't be in the conversation. But I just wanted to talk about how terrible of a finals he had. Kevin Johnson versus Barkley is probably even. Yeah. I mean, Kevin Johnson made more than Marley at that point, right? Yeah, so he's in the top two. But yeah, if you're talking highest, highest paid, it's Kmart, Kobe, and LeBron. But I wanted to mention Kevin Johnson. De 'Aaron Fox, by default, is the highest paid spur. It's the highest paid spur. He's the highest paid spur. I am going to, again, mount a gentle defense for Fox. I love this. Because you want the Wizards to trade for him.

1:28:02No, no, I definitely do not want that. But he missed a whole bunch of playoff games. He was missing games because he had a leg injury, he had an ankle injury. And it is not that uncommon for a guy to come off of an ankle injury and to not shoot the ball well. Now, the challenge is the moment called for the highest level, all of the shots that became available. That's a Mitch Johnson problem then. That's right. I agree. It's more of a Mitch Johnson problem than the Aaron Fox blame circle to me. If I'm handing out slices of blame pie. The way the Knicks played second half defense especially and fourth quarter defense, what was open was a mid-range jumper for whoever had the ball.

1:28:47And that mid-range jumper, the guy with the ball at the end of games was De 'Aaron Fox. And he missed nearly every effing one of them. I mean, and that's why you have salty Spurs fans writing in.

1:28:58Bill Simmons:Next year, it'll be Laurie Markin and banging him down. That is a really good trade. It's really good. You're going to love this next email. And I almost sent it to you. But I wanted your natural reaction live on the podcast. It's from Todd Womack. He writes, he's French. he's cheesy and he melted down Wemby's nickname should be Fondue put it out there Bill I love it he's 22 and this is probably the low point of his career but the big Fondue is pretty funny somebody you know part of the rich experience of these finals was after each game trying to imagine what the New York Post might run as their cover thing and one of the after game four my two favorites they didn't go with either one of them was just the tip for og come flying in that was magnificent i heard that from many quarters including my boy my boy peter friedman gave me that one uh and then sacre blew it that was somebody on on the internet who had had uh i'm in your i'm in your head wendy on the floor yelling at mitcher robinson doing that thing and then the headline was Sakre blew it.

1:30:10Like, I mean, blew the game. Oh, God damn, magnificent. I don't remember who put that on the The Big Fondue would have been a good

1:30:17Bill Simmons:post cover. Well, let's keep going. The Big, that's great. There's no reason to get off of it. Do you like Fondue Wendy or The Big Fondue? I like The Big Fondue better. I want to get all these jokes going because he's going to wreak havoc on the league and the angrier he gets, the more fun the next seven seasons will be. This is what makes next season, this upcoming season so goddamn magnificent. How many times did Knicks go right the fuck at him? He's like, O.G. Onanobi's like, I'm going to dunk on this bitch. Did you see the Brunson clip in the second half? There was a slow-mo version of it.

1:30:48Bill Simmons:It was one of his baskets in the fourth quarter. Wemby gets switched on him, and Brunson does like, he does the Brunson thing where he seems like he's going to go left, crosses over, gets Wemby on his side, and Wemby's like sprawling around. He looks like a deer on ice. Gets Wemby on his side, then cuts in like he's gonna try to get a foul on Wemby so Wemby kind of stops and he does this thing again and then Brunson cuts the other way Wemby flails the other way to go get him and then Brunson comes back and does a left limb it's like yeah in slow motion it's like one of the great clips I've ever seen in basketball and it's like everything you need to know about how great Jalen Brunson is just fucking working a seven foot six guy he was cooking up the fondue it's amazing Fondue chef.

1:31:33Bill Simmons:It's good. Before we moved to LA, my wife and I went to Montreal. Yes. And we went to a... Wonderful city, Montreal. We went to a fondue restaurant. Yes. And we just ate fondue. And it was like one of the great, most memorable dinners I've had. It was like just fondue. There was a chain of those. Going nuts on fondue. There used to be a chain. It was like called the hot pot. I can't remember now. Have we had fondue together? I don't think we've ever had fondue together. That's amazing. How have we not had fondue? I wonder if Chang has fondue thoughts. Let's do this. Let's have a dinner with Chang tonight.

1:32:09Bill Simmons:I'm going to talk fondue with Chang. You're missing it because you don't live here. Manifest it. Cam from North Carolina. I got a bunch of different versions of this question. We'll go with Cam. Is Wemby the quickest hero to villain arc in sports history? I think you can make the case the finals alone changed how people looked at him entirely. like even SGA that happened over the course of the season and the playoffs. Then Chris from DC, he added, Chris, he added when we walked into June as the consensus future face of the league and walked out of it as the most unlikable man in the sport. I went in rooting for this guy hard.

1:32:46Bill Simmons:I came out wondering if he's the most punchable player since peak Draymond. And then Kevin said, has anyone in history pulled off the difficult feet of going from emerging face of the league to man this guy's a fucking jack off in less than two weeks um nathan stewart wants to know is when be a fake tough guy he comes across like the villain in a teen movie always smiling and acting like the perfect kid when the adults are watching but playing dirty and trying to bully people when no one's looking um it just keeps going and going phenomenal um this is the sentiment right now this is why i said to zach low on saturday night when i was talking about face of the league, future of the league, Wemby's here.

1:33:26Bill Simmons:And it was like, this was kind of a catastrophe for all those angles. I think it was, it wasn't a catastrophe for his career. He's 22. He's got his whole career. I'm not overreacting to that. This is part of the process. It was just interesting to watch the perception of him shift that fast, right? Well, here's the thing. And, uh, I want to sit, take a couple of steps back and see as we approach the next season, whether this still holds true. I think there's never been a more pronounced kind of experience of NBA basketball than this moment. I think he's absolutely beloved by kids around my age, by teenage kids and younger.

1:34:08They will all universally tell you that they love Wemby and they are not like... My son loves Wemby, same thing. Right. And he's 18, he's a little older than your boy. How many games did he sit down and watch from the beginning to the end of these NBA finals? I mean, I could tell you for my kid, none, zero. My kid doesn't sit down and watch, you know, games all the way through. He comes in, I make him come in and watch fourth quarters for me. But nothing about what went down in these finals changes his perspective when it comes to Wemby and, you know, the reverence. I can't tell you how many times this big dummy kept coming to me, dad, how far away is Wemby from the goat?

1:34:45I'm like, you got to get, you got to leave the room right now. I do not want to be responsible for child abuse, but I will hit a man if you keep talking to me that way, even if it's a young man. But I mean, that's that's there is we out of the basketball commentariat, everybody in our echo chamber writ large, all of New York, all of New York hates when we now. I mean, it's wonderful to have him as a villain, but I think there is still yet amongst this generation that's coming up as NBA fans consuming the NBA, not by watching games, but by consuming it on the internet that will still hold Wemby in the highest regard.

1:35:23Bill Simmons:Honestly, similar to us with Jordan. We were in college together. We love Jordan. We love him. But when they played the Lakers in 91, I was like, he's going to lose. He's not ready for this yet. He's in magic. The old guys, they're going to teach that Michael Jordan a lesson. And this is part of the process. You got to get your teeth kicked in early. You got to climb the ladder rungs. And then you got to get to where you're going to get. I will read these two emails, though. Melting Pot. That was the name of the fondue place. I didn't look it up. I knew I could get it. The Melting Pot. Keep going.

1:35:56Sorry.

1:35:57Bill Simmons:Michael from Chicago. Can't help but think Wemby is pulling a 98 Carl Malone. Oh! Clutch free throws aren't going in. Tentative to shoot. Didn't seem like he totally wanted the ball. Not to say he'll never have it, but he just doesn't have it yet. Might be mean or unfair, but here we are. He's 22. This criticism, I agree with. This is from KJ. After watching the playoffs, I knew two things about Wemby. He's either 7 '5", 7 '6", or 7 '7". Agreed. I think he's 7 '7", but they're claiming 7 '5", but he's probably really 7 '6". That's the first thing. Second one. He's gassed at the end of these games.

1:36:39Bill Simmons:Has there ever been a 22-year-old superstar who was always gassed at the end of big games? Magic certainly wasn't. Jordan Bird, Wilt, Russell, Kobe, Duncan, you get the picture. Wrong. This is it. This is dead wrong. Who do you have? Go ahead. Shaq? No, no, I'm not. Go ahead. Finish the point. That's it. That's it. Okay. We began this entire time together, this wonderful time on this Monday, post-NBA finals, talking about some of the ways that the Knicks took advantage of the Spurs. I think it is a learned skill. Part of what is involved with this version of the Spurs, none of those guys ever played this level of basketball under these circumstances.

1:37:25These are the highest leverage moments of their entire lives on a basketball court. Now, Wemby did get the Olympics. You know what the difference between the Olympics and the NBA is? The Olympics, the games are 40 minutes. They're not 48 minutes. And they're two and a half weeks. Big breaks in between games. This version, and that's why I said earlier, it's a learned skill. It's a skill. You have to, and you have to, not just the individual players understanding when to expend energy and when not to. You don't win the game in the first quarter or the second quarter. Like all of those kinds of lessons.

1:38:04Bill Simmons:You don't celebrate the Western Conference Finals like you won the title. Well, that was fine. I mean, that was unexpected. And their target all along was Oklahoma City. We know this from the way that they went at Oklahoma City all season long. My biggest regret was I discounted how they reacted after they beat OKC. In your own handicapping of how this Nick Spurs Finals was going to go. I came to New York. I thought they had the perfect team to go against Brunson. And I was right for three and a half games. But what I discounted was they'd kind of already climbed the mountain. Whereas the Knicks were like icy fucking older veterans.

1:38:43Bill Simmons:Yes. Who were like, this Knicks series is the one. And the Spurs, I don't think I ever realized that until it was too late. How else are they going to, they can't learn it. This is the reason why, you know, it's a very, very unique thing that we experienced this year. where we kept saying, is this the moment where we see the Spurs in experience catch up to them? It wasn't until they made it to the finals and went against the Knicks. I don't think there's any other team in the entire NBA except for maybe a fully healthy Oklahoma City. If Oklahoma City hadn't undergone the injuries they experienced with Mitchell and J-Dub, exactly right, then where would that have ended up?

1:39:19Bill Simmons:But they kind of had OKC's number. I think what was interesting about this one is Like Castle lost confidence as the finals went along. Now you could have said it was the moment. It was the, how many minutes they played in the playoffs. But those last two games, he, he went sideways. He did not shoot the ball. Well, he didn't, but I mean, again, foul trouble in game four. And then game five was kind of afraid to do stuff, but this is all part of the learning experience. All right. We are learning experience. This next question from Ethan is a good one though. 80 years of NBA history tells us that if you make the finals this young and lose, you probably won't make it back with the same iteration of that team.

1:39:57He lists 86 Rockets, Sakeem and Sampson.

1:40:02Bill Simmons:Didn't get back there until 94. Shaq and Penny in 95, never happened again. LeBron in 07, never won in Cleveland. KD. Well, until 16. But came back and he was the only same guy on the team and had to leave for four years. Fair, fair. And they had to rig three lotteries for him. Did I say that out loud? KD, Russ, Harden. That was a joke. KD, Russ, Harden, and Abaka in 2011. Traded Harden, never got it back. Interesting. So this is once a decade, 86, 95, 07, and 11. And now the Spurs would, I guess, be the next example in 26. There's two outliers for this. The 22 Celtics, they lose the finals. Everyone's ready to trade JB for whoever.

1:40:57Bill Simmons:And they make it in two years later and they win with the same nucleus. They have Derek White. They have Pritchard. They have Horford still. And they have the Jays. Well, they get, they get, they add Porzingis and they add Drew Holiday, but they had a lot of the same nucleus. So that's an outlier. And then the 79 Sonics, they make the 78 finals. They lose game seven. Dennis Johnson goes, I think, 0 for 11 in game seven, but then they win the next year against your team. So interesting theory, though. Didn't make me go, huh.

1:41:30What can the Spurs do? Because I think this is the version of the Spurs that we're going to see for the next couple of years. There aren't huge swings that you can take. They just need Dylan Harper to become the guy we think he is and build the right team. I don't think they're that far away, but the thing that would support the idea that it may not come next year that it might not even be two years from now is how good the West is. We still have these injuries. Yeah, bro. Sure. Yes. Always injuries, especially with Wemby.

1:41:58Bill Simmons:Coach Steve has a Spurs overreaction trade. All right. The Warriors received De 'Aaron Fox, pick number 20 and Mitch Johnson. The Spurs received Jimmy Butler's expiring and Steve Kerr. Wow. Wow. I got to say, I kind of thought about this for a couple of minutes and I landed in a really good place with it. This sounds very petty. Coach Steve must be from San Antonio. That is a very petty trade. So Steve Kerr, you're, you're buying low on Mitch Johnson, but young, younger guy moving in. Maybe, you know, maybe, maybe learns, got some scars in the finals. You get pick 20. We know that Kerr loves expiring and Steve Kerr gets to go back to San Antonio.

1:42:42Bill Simmons:I like it. Not only that, he loves Steph, but what coach would say no to the opportunity to coach up Wemby? And Castle. Can somebody aggregate that? Like, that's a real trade? I want to say everybody go nuts. The sit-ins reporting. Yeah. Andrew Rowe says, as someone who loves all sports, you know as well as I do, sports are a copycat league. If you're an NBA exec in any stage of your franchise, what did you learn from how the Knicks were built? How would you copycat it? I have five things for you to tell me if I missed anything. Okay. Executives with connections that run a little deeper than just, oh yeah, I met that guy a couple of times.

1:43:23Bill Simmons:Like Wes recruited Towns when he was 15 years old. Yes. OG and an OB was CAA. Brunson, Rick Brunson, that whole thing. These are like real relationships and Bridges, Villanova. How do you replicate that with somebody, right? So we've seen Arn Talam went to Detroit and that didn't work. We saw Bob Myers go to Golden State. That did work. We saw Nico go to Dallas. Too early to tell if that worked. But you're talking about connection personality guys. There are a few of those left. There's some pretty high-powered agents left. There's somebody like even the ringers, Rich Paul could run a team. Like there's guys who have a lot of relationships who could do it.

1:44:03Bill Simmons:So that'd be one. This one's interesting. Targeting proven starters, hitting the 25 to 28 age range, a little bit older, like the Rasheed Detroit, OG, Bridges, even when they got Brunson, like getting guys at that second five years part of their career, but not too late. Right? Not like somebody like Giannis in year 14. Or Kevin Durant in year 15. Austin's got to find out. But you know what I mean? That makes sense, right? Like that second five years of somebody's career, can we get somebody in that range? leveraging the player-to-player friendship histories. Chemistry, work ethic, gritty guys, I think is one.

1:44:47Bill Simmons:And then my biggest lesson for them is don't be afraid to take a couple swings. Like firing Tibbs was a swing. Doing the OG trade and guaranteeing him this contract when we weren't positive he could always stay healthy was a swing. Jalen for four for 106 was not a hugely popular contract. Five picks for Mikael Bridges. Like this team fucking went for it a few times. And I think anything else would you add? No. And I don't know how replicable any of that is. I mean, the challenge, the thing that the Knicks pulled off was like literally decades in the making. Right. It's it's it's Leon Rose and World Wide West in the situations that they've been in.

1:45:28Building these lifelong relationships. Right. Yes. Yes. And having perspectives on players that were undervalued or underappreciated in their situations and understanding the force multiplier of bringing those guys together. Like, you know, we know we can unlock something. We know something about Bridges that he doesn't need to be an alpha, that he can be even a, what is he, a theta, whatever, alpha, beta, whatever the third wheel is. He doesn't even need to be a second. He could be fourth because you have key of cat also. And they got the best version of cat because they got a combination of cat maturing.

1:46:10Also, like, you know, because think about how many times the Knicks, you know, theoretically were trading cat right over these last two years. Oh, we got to trade cat. Like even fans, we're not reaching our our potential. You know, we only won 50 games two years ago and 53 games this year. and Kat's holding us back and Tibbs and Kat can't get on the same page. Like, well, that means Tibbs has to go because we're not going to trade Kat. Like, just think about that and how they were rewarded for just, let's just settle down. Let's just hold on. And the two, the best player in the first two games of the NBA finals was Kat.

1:46:45Bill Simmons:Do you want to be one of the judges of my Ringer game show that I'm going to start this summer where we take Knicks fans, we give them true serum? What's the thing where you have to, the drug where you have to tell the truth? would they have traded Towns and OG and an OB for Giannis and Kyle Kuzma a year ago? I just want to know how many Knicks fans would have 100 % locked into that. Ask Phenasy. No, he'll lie. Phenasy lies all the time. Phenasy the liar. Travis wrote a Tibbs thing actually about, did I hate watching Tibbs run a rigid seven-man rotation into the hardwood until the wheels fell off against Indiana?

1:47:23Bill Simmons:Absolutely. Did it drive me crazy? completely froze out assistance, managed huddles, blah, blah, blah. But I cannot deny the results of that bootcamp. Tibbs pressure cooked the core. He conditioned these guys to play heavy minutes without buckling, taught them elite habits, blah, blah, blah. If he hadn't done all that, this roster doesn't win a title. So why is he still single without an NBA team? If I was running a lottery team like Charlotte, Washington, Portland, Chicago, Dallas, I would take a flyer on him immediately. What are your thoughts on that? This is a brilliant email, and I hope it didn't come from Tibbs' agent because...

1:47:59It came from Travis Thompson. Well, Travis Thompson, I don't... Travis, this is brilliant. I could not agree more. I think what Tibbs... This is literally the thing that I've been sort of railing against in terms of the criticism of San Antonio. They're not being ready. This Knicks team was ready. And part of the getting ready was what Tibbs did to them. It's absolutely on the money. And I do think I have been wondering aloud, why isn't Tibbs at least like a defensive assistant somewhere? You know where Tibbs would make sense? And I don't know. San Antonio defensive coordinator? I mean, it could work.

1:48:40Because Sean Sweeney is about to leave. He's the new head coach of Orlando. I wouldn't hate to see Tibbs in Washington, D.C. I would not hate it. As your head coach? I don't know what role. Can you get rid of the guy who gave up 83 points to Bam Adebayo? I'm not. Brian Keefe has done a magnificent job and I don't have anything bad to say about him during his tenure here in Washington. You're crazy. But I don't hate the idea. Tibbs deserves another shot. We'll just,

1:49:08Bill Simmons:I'll leave it at that. I agree. Gerald sent a long email about the 2026 Spurs being the reincarnation of the 2012 Thunder that I thought was interesting. how they ended up in 2012 finals going against like, it's like a boys against men type situation. Also a five game series that I felt like OKC was in those first four games. Good, good. And the refs. I like it. I can't say I love the refereeing of the first four games in that series. And then by game five, they kind of wilted. And yeah, but they were toe to toe with them that whole series. All right. A couple more and then we'll go. Tim Gibson said, I'm sorry, I have to bring this up.

1:49:44Bill Simmons:The closest sporting event to what happened in MSG with game four, the finals has to be game six of the 86 World Series. Not just because of the insane comeback and the choking aspect, but because it was the win before the clincher. Thanks for all you and everyone else that the ringer does from Tim. It's pretty good. Pretty good. It really is. It's the win before the win. It was kind of the miracle that got the Knicks fans to drop their guards finally after Trump game three, game four down 27, and you need some sort of karma shift. you have the Brunson front rim bouncing right to OG crazy tip sequence.

1:50:25Bill Simmons:That's basically the equivalent of the Red Sox having the 14 straight strikes to end the game and not being able to. And then the Darren Fox slash Bill Buckner, you keep going. But I thought that was pretty good. And I still think game six of the 86 World Series is the worst sports loss of all time. I'm biased because I'm a Boston fan but to come all those pitches away from winning the World Series and then not doing it but then having to play game 7 I love this and it marries up perfectly because it was the game before the clincher the only one that rivals it and you mentioned it immediately in the moment no no no no the Atlanta Falcons giving up a 28-3 lead in the Super Bowl but that wasn't you know that's the Super Bowl which is not a game-before-game clincher kind of situation.

1:51:16Bill Simmons:Yep. Dustin says, I have great news for Dallas fans. It's been a tough month for Dallas fans. Is he talking about the Dallas Mavericks? He has great news for Mavericks fans? He thinks the Cowboys have replaced the Knicks as the sports team with the most fans who have had the longest drought and will go the most nuts if they actually win the title. And he was like, Like, sure, it's cool that they won the Super Bowl when I was seven, but the last 30-plus years have been brutal. So they won the Super Bowl in 95, so that's 31 years. So if you're 36 years old or under, you have no recollection of the Cowboys winning the Super Bowl.

1:51:58Bill Simmons:I turn the podcast over to you, Joe House, because we're the ex-Redskin Commander fans in this whole thing. And I would argue Washington has almost not as many fans as Dallas, but they have a fucking lot of fans. And your Super Bowl drought was Mark Rippon, 91. 91. And to, you know, further this, we had, you know, a demon in charge of the franchise. I mean, a person that came in and ruined every single tradition that Washington had in place. And a whole, I mean, part of the point of pride for Washington fans growing up in the 70s and 80s was that there was a culture. There was a way. Jack Kent Cooke, you know, notwithstanding his checkered history with the Lakers and the rest of it, as an owner of the Washington Redskins, was a magnificent owner.

1:52:53And did entrust, you know, the people that he put in charge to make good decisions. And a culture developed in Washington. And that was part of the pride that we all felt that we felt like Washington was built up the right way.

1:53:06Bill Simmons:The hogs are in the city. It was the biggest, by far the biggest team in the city. And then to have the new owner come in and basically for two decades, take a shit on every single thing. He took a shit on the fans. He took a shit on the, on the city. He took a shit on winning. He, he was all to his own narcissistic ends. And he was a huge dick. And it took a near act of God for the league to kick him out, you know, to finally try and realize the potential of what this Washington franchise. Dallas is not in that class. Yeah, Dallas has been relevant the whole time and has an owner that actually spent money and was interesting to build a new stadium.

1:53:49Bill Simmons:All of it. Yeah. You had more of the Knicks arc of just being disemboweled for two straight decades. and then on top of it the RG3 piece of thinking you finally had the savior and then the guy gets hurt in a year was another dick punch the Rams sent out in a game after RG3 was no longer on Washington all of the draft picks they sent out to the center of the field when they were doing the coin flip before a regular season Rams-Redskins game just to fuck you yes Sean McBase I don't remember who the head coach was just sent out all the guys that they got in that trade terrible. We'll end there. That's a good one to end on.

1:54:29Bill Simmons:I'm glad you were able to make the case for Washington. I do think there's only a couple, you know, like Buffalo is obviously, yes, Buffalo deserves, but Buffalo doesn't have a million fans. You know, Minnesota is another one. They haven't won a title since 91. They've never won a title with the Timberwolves. The Lakers left and went, won all these titles without them, but they don't have a million fans. I think when you get to the Cowboys and Redskins, which is what we grew up with, those franchises, and then also had success. And then that success was taken away. I think that I think those are the right two answers.

1:55:03Bill Simmons:There's nobody in the NBA like that. And then the Maple Leafs and the Maple Leafs and hockey, I think would be the other one. Ironically, the Giants have been bad for a long time. I mean, I know, but that was 2011. I'm OK. All right. Fine. Anyone who wants to shed tears for the Giants can honestly go fuck themselves. Obviously, I agree. Right in the face. Yes. Wholeheartedly agree with that. Before we go, what's your U.S. Open pick? I know you'll be covering this on Fairway Rowan and the Ringer Gambling Show all week, but what do you got? Yeah, so I reserve the right to change my mind over a couple times.

1:55:33Scotty Scheffler at plus 550 is the best odds of any major. This is his first attempt. Six to one on Fandle right now. Yeah, his first attempt to clinch the Grand Slam. It's his first attempt because he just won the British Open last summer. So this U.S. Open that he hasn't won, he's got the Masters, he's got the PGA Championship. He could clinch the U.S. Open. At those odds, hey, but how about this? I like the prohibitive favorite, but it is a good setup for him. And the thing that has been holding him back. So you like the narrative? I do like the narrative. It is the lead narrative. Scotty is fine.

1:56:08And going down the card a little bit, Matt Fitzpatrick has been on an absolute heater. Now, we've had two European winners win the first two majors of this season. We had Aaron Rye from the UK win the PGA Championship, and obviously Rory won the Masters. But Matt Fitzpatrick very easily could have four wins this season. He finished second this most recent week at the Canadian Open. He's just on an all-time heater, and so I want a guy like that. The incredible ball striking and no problem at all with the distance that Shinnecock is going to pose. Can I give you two? I'm listening.

1:56:45Fleetwood 20 to one. Love Tommy Fleetwood. Everybody will remember that in 2018, he shot a 63 that came this close to being a 62 lost by one stroke to Brooks Koepka. Great. Love Tommy Fleetwood. I was just wondering,

1:57:01Bill Simmons:is it in the air from this next title? The improbable feeling a little more probable. We just had UFC where Pereira and Teporia just lost. Like, weird is, like, the World Cup, God only knows what's going to happen. Team USA looked incredible on Friday night. It's just going to be a weird month of sports. And if that's the case, Fleetwood, I'd also like to offer you Xander Shoffley at 20-1. Xander's wonderful. He has an extraordinary track record at U.S. Opens in particular, but nobody in golf other than Rory and Scotty has as many high finishes in majors over the last 10 years. He's our number one.

1:57:48You're due to actually win a major guy right now. Well, he has two majors. He won two in one season, but he won the PGA Championship at Valhalla and then he won the British Open at Troon. So he's due to win the US Open, the granddaddy of them all.

1:58:04Bill Simmons:I meant the real majors. The Masters in the US Open. There's two tournaments that actually matter. And he hasn't won either of those. Both of those are great picks. Worth getting some money down on both of them. Before we go, I went to the World Cup. Oh, yeah. On Friday. The opener at SoFi. Look at you wearing the jersey. I saw the best American soccer game we've ever played in the World Cup. I was in the FanDuel box. Shout out to Christian. And we had great seats. I had a great time. I got to say, I was blown away by the team. And DeBundo was calling this before the tournament. He was telling us, like, look, I get it.

1:58:55Bill Simmons:I get the skepticism. Just know this is the healthiest we've been in like four years. This is the first time we've had all of our guys. Okay. They demolished Paraguay in the first half. It was unbelievable to watch. We had guys. Pulisic was just dominating their back right guy over and over again guys just beating people 1v1 and then creating plays and I couldn't believe it I was just dumbfounded and then I don't know if that's the peak we'll see Australia beat Turkey they did upset so now we have this Friday game that I think is really great. It's Friday afternoon, three o 'clock Eastern time.

1:59:41Bill Simmons:This is a everybody has to leave work lunchtime. Do not put in a full day. Go to a fucking bar. It's a national holiday. There's no work. There's no work. It's Juneteenth. It's a national holiday. It's Juneteenth. You're not familiar with Juneteenth? I forgot it was Juneteenth. It's a holiday. This is unbelievable. I didn't realize that was the same day. I don't look at that. Yeah, three o 'clock I never know what the holidays are. I understand. I get it. Holy shit. This is going to be a really special day. And it's really a country that I like. Yeah. In general, but not on Friday. Fuck these guys.

2:00:21I hope we get to see. Is it at SoFi? Where's the game? No, it's in Seattle. Oh. Oh. I want it to be in a warm climate because the photos that are coming from the warm climate games, like I had a buddy who went up to Philadelphia yesterday to see Ecuador play the Ivory Coast. It's a wild card. and he was, it was hot in Philly yesterday. Woo-wee! He says, first of all, I mean, I wonder if this marries up with your experience. This is my boy, Miggy. He says that it's like a rock concert. It's like, it's not like a sporting event that you've ever kind of gone to. It's like a constant high energy of the crowd the entire time.

2:01:00But yes. We're not going to have that kind of

2:01:04Bill Simmons:complete experience in LA. like where you're really getting it, you know, Scotland was in, in the Boston game playing in Foxborough and my daughter went out with her, my daughter went out with her boyfriend Saturday night. They went to this place called Coogan's, which was filled with Scottish people watching the world cup and lose their minds as game five of the NBA finals was on. And she said it was the best sports bar experience of her life. They had like the greatest time ever. And she was like, these Scottish people are fucking nuts. She was like, we love them. We've never seen anything like that.

2:01:39Bill Simmons:They were just maniacs. And I was like, you realize your mom's half Scottish, right? And she's like, Oh, now it all makes sense. She just, she's 21 years old. She just realized you, which makes her like 25 % Scottish and 25 % Italian. But, but she said, she said it It was one of the most fun nights because now she's 21 too, but she said they had like the greatest time. And so I think in some of these other cities, it's a little bit of a different experience than going to SoFi in LA, but it was still great. I mean, it was everybody had the jerseys, people are going nuts. The, the strikers third goal for us.

2:02:16Bill Simmons:Yes. Was had to be the greatest American goal I've ever seen. Um, not just in person. How do you say his name? Balagon. Balagon. But we're both going to fuck that one up. Um, it was like our country doesn't score goals like this normally you know great run muscles the dude off and then just like blast and he's already turning around as the ball's going in the corner it was like holy shit he could have played for two other countries and he chose us I like the guys that choose us the guys that have options but choose us yeah there's I don't want to point out there's two weak spot guys that I didn't love during that game which people will probably know.

2:02:56Bill Simmons:I don't want to talk about weakness. I want to talk about strength. Be positive. We were awesome. Richards was a fucking maniac in that game. But I really got excited. I couldn't be more excited for the Friday game and everything else. So World Cup. I can't wait to lose more money on it. Thanks to Tony Tokens. You'll be on Ringer Gambling Show, Fairway Rolling. Thanks to Gahau and Eduardo as well for producing the pod today. I'm going to be back. I think I'm going to have two more pods this week. So stay tuned for that. And then hand that rocks the cradle up on rewatchables right now. Joe House, I didn't tell you this yet, but you're going to be one of the people live with me right after the NBA draft on Tuesday night.

2:03:34Bill Simmons:So don't go anywhere. Let's go. I'm in. Yeah. Your team will take AJ. I might fly out to LA for that then. If I'm going to be live, I might as well be live. Why don't I have a meal? You're holding out meals with Dave Chang over my head. Why don't I just come out and have a meal with... I'm sending you pictures tonight from the Dave Chang meal. We're going to. A good one. Go get some fondue. All right. Thanks, House. Thanks to the big fondue. Thanks to everybody else. Thanks for all the mailbag emails out there. And I'll see you a little bit later in the week.

2:04:19Bill Simmons:Must be 21 plus and present in select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 plus and present in D.C., Kentucky or Wyoming. If you have a problem, call 1-800-GAMBLE or 1-800-MY-RESET. Call 888-797-7777 or visit ccpg.org slash chat in Connecticut or mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24-7 support in Massachusetts. or call 877-8-HOPE-NY or text HOPE-NY in New York for Louisiana. Call 877-770-7867.