Best Of The Body Pod - Rethinking Nighttime Nutrition: Dr. Mike Ormsbee on Sleep, Metabolism & Fat Loss

23:37Again, not many studies in that exact space, but from the one or two that exist, I would say be cautious with that approach. So just make sure it's not all everything's positive. There are pluses and minuses to anything that's chosen. And then some of your clients and people who are interested, maybe they do train hard and they are elite at their age or their age group athletes or something. that's where this could be interesting in that there are data showing that after an evening bout of exercise this was soccer if you had pre-sleep protein it actually had things like reactive strength index and counter movement jump were able to come back to normal faster after a hard game so theoretically you could compete more or better or maybe just a little bit harder each time you do compete because that lasted for three days the benefit was higher for performance for roughly three days.

24:30So, so that's there. And then there's also an advantage to, uh, muscle protein synthesis. So the other group I was talking about overseas that runs this is Luke van Loon and his group. And they've found in a ton of different studies that it actually increases muscle protein synthesis while you're sleeping with a small protein dominant, um, snack and in, in their hands, they actually have seen over 12 weeks of training with this strategy where again, it was used to increase total daily protein, they just took it before bed. They had better outcomes for like cross-sectional area, muscle strength, all the things that you might be looking for, for a trained individual who's like a gym goer wanting to add muscle to their, to their frame.

25:11So a little more context there with what outcomes people are finding. And again, it's a little bit mixed, but what I'm telling you is like the summary of the good points. And that's where you would use this strategy.

25:21Dr. Mike Ormsbee:Where have you been for the last three years? so so um haley i think it's exciting i think it's a neat place but again it's n of one and that brings me back to your original question which was intermittent fasting now intermittent fasting as you said uh you probably have five experts they all say something different or at least it's it's uh confusing enough to say it depends and i'll i'm not going to help you at all there it is still depends but i'll tell you this from my experience working with lots of different people in research studies and even in coaching. It's a great tool. It's a fantastic tool if you like to intermittent fast.

25:56And so I never push someone away from it if they like it. Some people have lifestyles where it really just suits them to wake up and not eat for a while. And some people don't. You wake up and you're starving. And so for me, I always push like, follow what's natural to you and then just make the best choices with that. So we have folks who have used intermittent fasting absolutely love it it shortens the eating window can control calories and as you probably know all the data like if you just choose to do a slightly caloric restricted and eat all day at the end of a longer period of time you tend to have very similar outcomes so it's a great tool if you like it use it if you don't like it don't use it um but it certainly is something that would that would work with this protein feeding that i'm talking about depending on where you lay, where you decide to bracket your start and end time of eating.

26:46And so if you, if you bracket that in the morning, clearly you wouldn't be having that at night. If you bracket that in the middle of the day, or you stop around 8 PM, like 12 to eight, for example, again, you wouldn't have something later, but I will tell you this. I read a lot of studies that talk about fasting or intermittent fasting. And then you read the details and it's like, oh, but we allow an essential amino acid drink. Oh, but we allow a protein drink. And so it's like, is it really fasting or is it not? And so even if the title says intermittent fasting, there are several different times I've looked through it.

27:17It's like, yeah, it's fasting, but we do allow tea. We do allow, you know, things that have small amount of calories. We do allow an essential amino acid drink just to maintain, you know, amino acid levels in the system. So you have to look at that quite, quite a sort of a nuanced lens. But for me, everything is possible to be a benefit, but it has to fit your lifestyle because if you can't stick to it, it's never going to work.

27:42Dr. Mike Ormsbee:Okay. That's the mic drop right there. Because this is, while I think the internet in this day and age is so amazing, it's information overload. And then you get these, you know, niche populations. Well, for, you know, this specific population of women that say I'm working with. And then they hear, you know, well, I can't do this. Now I should do this. Now I shouldn't do this. Now I should do this. And it's this back and forth game with each, you know, new article that comes out. And then women come to me and they're like, just tell me what to do. Tell me exactly what to eat and tell me what exercise to do.

28:24Dr. Mike Ormsbee:And I'll, I'll do it to a team really good at following through. And it's never that simple because we're all unique and individual. And And while there are some, do you see some from your perspective, if we're looking at this, what are the overarching themes that we really have to nail besides the nuances of whether you're going to intermittent fast or whatever in the nutrition and fitness space? Yeah. I mean, everyone's going to talk about which levers to pull and what's, you know, or you hear some conversations about, you know, stepping over dollars to pick up pennies. And that's where the nuance is crazy.

29:01Like you probably have had these discussions, like, I don't know about you, but I don't have time to always, you know, to do everything perfectly, to get two training sessions, a cold bath, look at the sun, you know, do all the different things. And so you have to choose with a busy lifestyle. What are the biggest things? And this, to me, you can really get that into three spaces, exercise, nutrition, and sleep. And if those big rocks are under control, the little other pebbles that fall out are much easier to manage. Or you just aren't in a situation where you're trying to be on stage or compete in a thing.

29:37You just want to have a lifestyle where you feel pretty good. You can handle your lifestyle with your spouse and your kids. And in that sense, those three big items are exactly where I'd be landing. And then I might think about, all right, nutrition is pretty well dialed in, but I don't really like eating in the morning. So maybe intermittent fasting is something that I would try. and you know i wouldn't even get there until i had the basics lined up for those other areas and hayley i agree with you like people all the time they're like i don't get it i was told to not eat before bed i was told to eat before bed and so i think it can be far easier than that and i i think it's a stepwise approach like what's the simplest possible thing you can change today that you barely even notice it in your lifestyle that would then add up over time to be a big impact so for example, one of the courses that I have online, we finish it with these small steps.

30:28And it's like every chapter in that book is where do you finish? And what's the one action item you can take today? Maybe it's increasing your protein intake just a little bit. And that's all you do for like four weeks to dial in that habit. Or maybe it's something like, you know, your vitamin D is super low. And so you take a vitamin D supplement. And that's the only thing we ask you to change. And your clients might be like, what in the world? I'm paying you to do this and that. And it's like, Yeah, but if you stick with me, this is the key is getting all of these big ticket items where it's so routine, you stop thinking about it.

30:59And so for me, those are those are the big the bigger sort of levers that I can pull in order to sort of set my boundaries, set my baseline for where I can eventually get to. I always know I can fall back on these three things, exercise, nutrition and sleep.

31:17Dr. Mike Ormsbee:so true and this is what I have with with some of my you know high profile uh clients that are that are you know running companies or whatever they don't I don't have they don't have time for me to micromanage them at all I mean and really I'm just like okay do if we do the basics it doesn't the the nuances that come from again like you said eating before or eating after or um you know doing this kind of cardio versus this kind of cardio at the end of the day are you doing something resistance training are you sleeping well recovering well and are you is your nutrition pretty on point uh no doubt about it no doubt that's boring it's so boring do you know what the name of that course is it's called changing body composition through diet and exercise so no nobody wants to click on it but it is it's just like hearing me in a lecture i'm going through lecture by lecture what do these things actually mean and it's just a science you know you end with like these are the tools hopefully now you have the ability to use those tools as you want what's up everybody it's bretsky and america is turning 250 and i can't think of a better way to celebrate that than playing on an american-owned social casino spinquest.com with all of your favorite games live crap bubble craps live blackjack there's no better place to play for free and win real cash prizes.

32:39SpinQuest.com. SpinQuest is a free-to-play social casino. Void where prohibited. Visit SpinQuest.com for more details. Chicago talks a lot. Hold on, let me step over here. People are talking too much. We debate about food, deep dish, tavern style, who's got the best beef. We yell across rooms, across blocks, across generations. Yes, nice earrings, Grammy. And now we're doing it on our phones, too. Video calls from the L train, group chats that never shut up. Neighbors texting you the score before your TV catches up. Come on! Get a load of this guy. Catch up. On a dog. Yeah, we've got thoughts.

33:18Too loud? In Chicago, you're gonna hear it. Because nothing here gets built without conversation. Nothing moves without connection. So, if you think you know AT &T, it might be time to rethink that. Because their network has improved like a lot. So Chicago can keep speaking its mind with AT &T wireless and AT &T fiber. Chicago won't stop talking. Our improved network backs it up. AT &T connecting changes everything. AT &T fiber, limited availability in select areas. And I think, you know, you mentioned resistance training and that's such a critical piece to this. And I think, I think it's the part, and I know you have other guests that kind of go through these things, but that piece is so critical.

34:00We always say like, if you want to be a smaller pair than just do the slow aerobic exercise. You'll be a smaller pair, but you want to actually change the way that pair looks. Then you have to add in the resistance training to sort of sculpt out what that will eventually look like. And so one of the studies we're running right now might be of interest. It's specifically in postmenopausal women. And these are women that are also pre-diabetic and either overweight or have obesity. And we are directly, directly for the first time comparing aerobic exercise to resistance exercise on outcomes of fat metabolism.

34:37And this is a five-year study we've been running now, Haley. Okay.

34:41Dr. Mike Ormsbee:Do tell. It's phenomenal. And so these women are all awesome. They really want help. They come to us because of that. And they get training for 12 weeks and it's either straight aerobic training or straight resistance training. And in most of the research you probably have seen to date, it's aerobic heavy. It's switching now, like a little more resistance training in women specifically, but a lot of it's aerobic dominant type research for weight and control. And that's because when you compare 20 minutes of running to 20 minutes of weightlifting, your calorie burn is going to be far higher in the running.

35:17You just, you're burning more calories with that. And so there's a couple other studies who have tried to pair these together, but they paired them on time. So you would work out for say 45 minutes in both groups, but the calorie burn was so much higher in one that it really shifted the conversation. And so what we've done is we've, instead of matching time, we're matching calorie output. So you exercise to burn a certain number of calories. And so the resistance training group ends up working out longer, but they're burning the same amount of calories as the other group. And so now we're finally to a point where we're getting some data back and we'll have plenty of things coming out of this lab based on what we're finding.

35:55But it's just awesome to watch how the strength training particularly is improving what you would think strength. And then you see the confidence come up. You see all of the ability to sort of handle the stresses that were thrown at them sort of come up a little bit. And even the aerobic group, they're new to exercise. So it's great. But then they all are starting to say, I wish I was doing some resistance training. I can see that group over there. I want to join that group. So we have fantastic, awesome participants and a whole team here that handles the training and all of the outcomes. But we're looking at how are they utilizing fat?

36:33How are they putting on fat? What exactly is going on with microdialysis and biopsies and all the science techniques we can throw at them? And so we should have some really good answers here. And the hope is this, Haley, is that at the end of it, that the the guidance on what to do is, is less of, um, uh, anecdote where we know we should be resistance training. And it's more of, they put these things head to head and either there was no difference in the fat metabolism piece of it, or there was a greater improvement from being able to resistance train and add these other pieces of, of weight and strength to it, which, you know, obviously have like longevity outcomes and other things that are, are quite useful for, for post menopausal women.

37:18Dr. Mike Ormsbee:Hey everyone, it's Haley. If you've ever finished a workout plan and thought, okay, now what? My membership was built for you. Over 40 strength training programs, every level, every goal, every equipment set up all in one place for less than a dollar a day. Beginner to advanced home gym or full gym, travel weeks, recovery weeks, heavy lifting weeks. there's a plan for all of it. And when your life shifts, your training shifts with it. Programs that would cost you over$4 ,000 to buy individually, annual membership is just$279. Try it free for 10 days at hayleyhappensfitness.com. Your strongest years are still ahead.

38:03Dr. Mike Ormsbee:Let's make you happen. So do you, are you measuring and what are your, what are your thoughts on visceral fat? Because this is also a big one that changes for women as we kind of go into this menopausal transition. Most women notice more abdominal fat. And when we look at visceral fat specifically, the question is always, how do I target it? It's usually a multimodal approach. And so there are several studies that we've done in this space looking at visceral fat with resistance training, HIIT training, aerobic training, usually with a higher protein intake. And a lot of these are in men and women, but all of them middle-aged and many of them are peri or postmenopausal.

38:51And so in our work, I don't know if you remember years ago, there was a program called Body for Life that came out. It was kind of the 90s. Yeah. Yeah. So that's when I was starting research in this space. And so a guy named Dr. Arciero had these grants and I was a student in his lab and we were just starting to figure out what's up with that particular program. Cause it was really the first time we got a big message to lift weights and add protein. And so we decided to compare that particular program, which was resistance training three days a week and three days a week of high intensity interval training with one day off.

39:27So a six day program. And then we compared it to at the time, which was the old food guide pyramid back then. And so the food guide pyramid, and then it was the basic recommendations that go along with it were increased physical activity five days a week. So it was everybody was exercising, but the one group got resistance training and specifically a higher protein intake that we accomplished through protein shakes and protein bars. So it was primarily through those mechanisms to jack protein up. And in our hands, we looked at DEXA and we were to calculate visceral fat and subcutaneous fat and changes over a 12-week study.

40:04And so these women were just awesome. Gosh, they work so hard. And in that time, no matter what you did, starting an exercise program with some dietary instructions was helpful. So everybody lost weight. Everybody lost body fat. Everybody gained a little bit of muscle mass. But there are probably two giant things I learned from that. The resistance training and the protein in that group led to far greater, more significant changes in reductions in belly fat and visceral fat than not including a higher protein diet and not including resistance training. So by far to attack that visceral tissue, at least in the studies that we've run, it's got to be a combination of something with resistance training and a much higher protein intake than many women are.

40:56Many people in general are typically eating when they're starting out on these types of programs. So that was really, really critical to us. The other part was that the women in that study were, for better or worse, they were so awesome, but they were so stuck on the body weight number as compared to the body composition number. And so I remember talking to at least three of those subjects that wanted to basically escape from the study because their body weight had not shifted enough for what they thought should be happening in a 12-week study. but then i show them the dexa data and we see a giant drop in body fat and visceral fat and an increase in muscle mass and i was hoping that would push them over the edge to say okay no no this the composition is critical to this piece of it um but we have to get out of our own way sometimes hayley there's such a stigma on body weight and it has got to shift to body composition because we're doing ourselves no favors by sticking in this weight only and just losing muscle mass in some of these programs that exist when you don't account with resistance training and a higher protein intake.

42:09Dr. Mike Ormsbee:Were these women and men in a calorie deficit or were you just having them resistance train over the 12 weeks? It depends on the study. The one I'm referring to was not, it was, they met with a dietician weekly to keep them at their target calories, which was based on keeping them even. So it was based on, we had the resting metabolic rate and their activity factors to keep them in a certain small range of caloric intake. And then we just manipulated the protein side of it and the exercise side so that the calories were equated. So in that particular study was over and above. So protein itself is pretty unique.

42:48We have done so much work with not just a pre-sleep protein, but just daily protein changes. And in every single paper that I've put out on it or looked at or been associated with, if you're in a situation where you're an athlete, should have higher protein. If you're in a situation where you're trying to recover more, probably should have higher protein. If you're in a situation where you want to be losing belly fat, you should probably have more protein. If you're in a situation where you're trying to lose weight in general, I would also increase protein. And so I get a lot of questions around, well, in this situation, that situation, would you increase or decrease?

43:23I'm like, in every one of those situations, I would lock in and dial in protein at the level that we want and then manipulate the other macronutrients around that based on your exercise output.

43:35Dr. Mike Ormsbee:So we can then, just to confirm that I'm hearing you right, we can change visceral fat without being in a calorie deficit then? That study showed, yes? That study showed with the higher energy output, more energy flux, yes. We actually had a reduction in the visceral fat in that particular study. Pretty great to see that. And I want to follow that, Haley, with another really cool study I think your audience would really like. We were looking at a giant weight loss study. These were people who were looking to go get bariatric surgery. So they were going to a bariatric center to have surgery. And instead, they see our team sitting there and we're like, hey, instead of having that surgery, come with us for some diet and exercise.

44:18So as you can imagine, many people didn't want that. And so they went on their way, but we were able to recruit a lot in for our work, which was run by a guy named Eddie Joe for his PhD dissertation that was run out of a colleague's lab at our university. And so when they came through and we actually recruited these people in, every one of them went on the medically supervised diet, which was required at the bariatric center. Do you know the calorie intake for a medically supervised diet, how low that is?

44:45Dr. Mike Ormsbee:Under a thousand? Yes. A thousand? About 800 calories is what it was when we did the study. Sounds terrible. And it's mostly liquid. And you're coming from a position where you're going for bariatric surgery. So the calories are far higher than that in your usual life. And then you quickly cut that down with mostly liquid foods to go through these. And it's just miserable, right? You do lose a lot of weight, though, because you're just not eating much at all. And so what we did is we took all these people and we said, it's actually a harm if we don't add protein to both of these groups because on a calorie, uh, on a grams per kg basis, they were like at 0.4 grams per kg, which is like half of the RDA, which we know is probably half of what we should be eating.

45:29So you can do the math. It's very, very low based on total body size. And so when we added protein to both groups, it became a situation where it was like really cool to, um, to see where they, you know, they all had a little bit extra protein. So it put their calories up to about 1200 or so, which is still not very high, but it was at least better than 800. And then one of those groups got resistance training and the other one did standard of care, which was more like calisthenics and just walking and things like that. And after the period of that particular study, this is going back to the body weight versus composition, both groups lost a ton of body weight, but the composition was so critical.

46:07So when they lost all that weight, the group that maintained or had the higher protein and got the resistance training of their weight lost, um, let's say 24 % of that weight lost, uh, was, um, fat and they only lost a teeny little bit of muscle along that way. Now, on the other hand, the group that got, um, a little bit of protein, but didn't do resistance training, they lost a significant amount of muscle mass in that period of time. So the end of the day, and I think I said that backwards. So let me just rephrase that. The group that did resistance training only lost 4 % of their muscle mass.

46:51The group that did not do resistance training lost 24 % of their muscle mass in that study, 24. So like a quarter of the weight loss was muscle. And so now if you stop doing that, you're at a place where you're smaller, but you also have way less muscle. And if you start to eat normally again, it's called weight recidivism. You're just going to put it right back on and go even, even worse with it. And so in my mind, that was like, gosh, out of the gate, we had data to show that in any of these weight loss, giant weight loss studies, like you've got to be weight training, got to have higher protein in order to save your muscle mass.

47:28Dr. Mike Ormsbee:Okay. So then the same conversation would apply to someone who's going on like a GLP-1 and losing a lot of weight, but not adding in resistance training and protein, but resistance training being the bigger rock for preserving muscle mass. 100%. Now, I haven't run those studies. I know a lot of those are coming out now and being done by colleagues of mine all over the place, but yeah, because it's just a different mechanism to lose the weight. But if the weight was coming off that fast, you better be doing something to maintain the integrity of your muscle mass or you'll be just set up for other problems.

48:06Dr. Mike Ormsbee:All right, let's take a quick break to hear from some of the BodyPod sponsors. We'll be right back.

48:16Hey, everybody. Lady Luck here, and we're celebrating America's 250th birthday. Now, all summer long, I'm going to be celebrating by playing on spinquest.com, which is an American-owned social casino. It obviously features over a thousand slot games and live blackjack, live craps, live bubble craps. Head on over to SpinQuest.com. Get yourself a$30 coin pack for just$10. SpinQuest is a free-to-play social casino. Avoid where prohibited. Visit SpinQuest.com for more details.

48:51Dr. Mike Ormsbee:Okay, now this is going to be getting into the weeds here, but I'm going to ask it anyways. So for the resistance training, did it matter what they were doing? And what I mean by that is a rep range, getting close to failure, using effort or just, you know, kind of going in and being like, OK, do your own thing. But you have to lift some weights. Yeah, that's a good question, Haley. That particular one was supervised. So they had a student trainer with them every single rep, every single exercise. And they were pushing for the sort of the normal recommendation. So it was full body exercise. And they had that those three days a week.

49:32And then they had a rep range of around eight to 12. And they were supposed to be hitting close to failure on the end of those. And so we had RPE scales, rating of perceived exertion scales for every single time they went through that. So yeah, it does matter. Like you need to be getting close to failure. And I'm sure you've had conversations about that. Like the weight probably is not as important. It's just, are you getting close to failure? And they were pushing themselves. They worked hard. They had a really good experience. It's actually helpful to be held accountable to somebody. They say that all the time.

50:04Like, even if you're very well-trained, it's nice to have a coach where someone can keep you accountable. And yeah, they were pushing themselves. Okay.

50:13Dr. Mike Ormsbee:So let's move on to rep ranges since we're kind of touching on this. for women in this midlife area, is there only one way to train? Do we train all rep ranges? Do we get benefits from different rep ranges? I mean, I love to hear what any expert says and any kind of turn that they might have or difference that they might have in this specific population. Yeah. I don't know. If you ask my friends and stuff, I'm a pretty middle of the road kind of person. So once again, I don't know that I'll be real controversial on anything, but the way that I see it, based on my view of the literature, past coaching experience and been in this field for 30 years, like there's a benefit to just about every type of exercise and every type of rep range to tissue, metabolism.

51:15performance recovery psychology you know what have you and so to me if you like lower uh reps and heavier weight then lift that way if that's too heavy for you or you're at an age where like you don't need to back squat so much anymore like then just shift it a little bit and then you can use a different rep range and so for me i like to work through a full range of them i have heavy days I have light days, the people that we work with, the women that are highly active and are associated with our facility at the Institute of Sports Sciences and Medicine do that too. So there'll be a day of, you know, even with the aerobic world, like a zone two day, and then there'll be like a higher intensity day and there'll be heavy days and all that.

51:59And some of that's based on how you feel that day, Haley, because there's something to auto regulation where you're in the gym or you're in your garage, wherever you're training. and some days you're just like, I'm dialed in. I can totally go heavy today. That's what I want to be doing, but that's taxing on your nervous system. So I don't think you should do that every single day. So we work through a wide range of weights and also repetitions is what I would personally recommend. And there's some data to back up variety in general. So again, Paul Arciaro has run many of these studies. I was associated with two or three of them.

52:33They're called PRIZE. And it's so the prize is an acronym for protein is the P resistance training is the R. I is intermittent like sprints. S is stretching or yoga. And then E was endurance. And so he compared in many different studies, this prize program to traditional exercises and simply the variety that's provided with, you know, something different just about every single day was quite useful. And I think it would be useful for things in general, like compliance and wanting to go do something. It's not the same thing every day. But he also found greater benefits with that sort of approach for, like you said, visceral fat, abdominal fat, muscle mass, etc.

53:15et cetera. And so outside of just rep ranges, even between types of exercise, I think that variety is really nice and it keeps you ready, right? Like if my kids want to play on the playground, I want to be able to do that with them. If they want to do some activity, I hope I can still throw a ball or kick a soccer ball. So it keeps you sort of, at least keeps me in the mindset of like, I can still hang with most things. So let's go ahead and try these different activities.

53:41Dr. Mike Ormsbee:Absolutely. Okay. So another study that, that I would like your input on, which was super fascinating to me because I've never really cared that much about collagen. And when people ask me, I'm like, take it or don't. It's one other thing that I have to take. And now after I've listened to some podcasts that you're on, I'm starting the collagen regularly from here on out. So let's talk about that. Yeah. So that's another one. I felt the same way before we actually did the research on, I was like, oh no, like it's not a complete protein. I don't think this is, this probably isn't the way that I would be wanting to get my protein in.

54:25And so when the opportunity came up to study collagen, we made sure to do it right. We, when we chose a population that was great and I'm, you know, as I'm getting older, I'm like, hey, middle age is great. Let's study that. I want to see what happens. And so we took lifelong active people, lifelong active. It could be anything. It could have been golf, walking. It could have been even like high level elite athletes, but you had to be active your whole life. And then we ended up studying collagen intake at three different levels, like zero. So you took a placebo 10 grams per day or 20 grams per day.

55:01And then we measured and we had them take the supplement for nine months, which is the kicker. That's a very hard thing to pull off in the research world is something that long. And, and we did that for a couple of reasons. One is like, there's a lot of negativity around collagen. We want to make sure we didn't just go too short and that we don't want to finish and say, you know, if we had done a little bit longer, maybe we would have seen something. So we wanted to take it all the way out. We also wanted to look and see if there's any changes in bone mineral density, and that won't change until at least a minimum of nine months.

55:33So we were, we were still just on the cusp of if we were going to see something we might've seen at about that point. And so our primary outcomes were not muscle growth, which I wouldn't recommend collagen for our primary outcomes was joint pain. And a lot of middle-aged active people one day or another have joint pain. And so you couldn't have diagnosed to osteoarthritis, but you had to have some type of reoccurring but not persistent joint pain. And so that's what we did. We lined it up. Shaloa Kievkovsky ran that study for her PhD dissertation, and she's phenomenal. And we did so much great work in that space.

56:14And what we ended up finding after nine months of that was that taking the collagen was most beneficial if you were the most active, if you were the most active people in the study. And so there were some, some benefits in some things we measured across the board. But if you exercised more than about a hundred and I think it was about 160, 180 minutes a week, that's where those people ended up seeing the most benefit from taking collagen. If you didn't, if you were active, but it was less than that 150 minutes a week or so, that's where not so much was seen in those individuals. And the thought is that the most active people have the most opportunity to get collagen because it's very hard to get collagen where it needs to go.

57:02You have to have blood flow to the joints. And that only is really going to happen maybe when you're exercising that those people are just so active that you had an opportunity to get the collagen perhaps to these areas we were measuring for joint pain. Now, some nuances here, right? Let's always sort of cap this off. In our hands, 10 grams seem to work a little bit better in most cases than 20 grams. And we don't know why.

57:29Dr. Mike Ormsbee:So that's interesting. Yeah. So 10 grams is what I take. 10 grams is what I typically recommend for people now. 20, it wasn't ineffective. It just had, we had more of the outcomes changed in the positive direction from 10 grams. And I don't know why. We have some theories on it. We're trying to test now with some ongoing work. but we still don't know why. And I think with the collagen conversation, it's like, how in the world would it be better than like a complete protein, like a whey protein? And that's where this, a lot of negativity comes still. If you're talking about muscle growth, collagen should not be what you're choosing to take.

58:09You should be taking a whey or, you know, casein or, you know, a soy supplement product or something. The collagen specifically in my mind, because it's the only data I've seen that I believe is with this joint pain angle. And I don't know. I'm not sure exactly why it would help with these specific things other than the makeup of it. With the glycine, the proline, hydroxyproline combination of these amino acids that are in high concentration in collagen also make up the tendons in the joints. So it's not that they're absent from away. They just are very much present in the collagen. And I think a lot of work needs to be done to say, why would it target a tissue?

58:51We don't know. But at the end of the day, the mechanisms are really, really critical. But the outcomes to me are even more critical. Do you feel better? Then take it. And we can figure out the in-between. And we work on it. And I'm not putting down the mechanistic piece. We need to know that. But at the moment, it looks like pain is better. If you're very active, why not give it a try? It's not going to hurt anything and it might, it might help you.

59:17Dr. Mike Ormsbee:No, this is great because I don't know any female or very few that does not have some kind of joint pain, especially post-menopause when we no longer have estrogen that comes up a lot. And so this is great news. I mean, I'm, I'm starting, I started the protein last night. Now I'm starting the collagen today. I have it. I have loads in my house. I just, if it's not sitting right out, I'm really good with creatine and just getting protein, but then it's just one extra thing to like throw in there. Yeah. Yeah. That's the thing. It's like the timing for it's also probably important for collagen. Like that would be like a pre-workout type time that you would want to take it before exercise if you can.

1:00:02Dr. Mike Ormsbee:Oh, okay, good. So they can take it if they're having some, some protein before added in there. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And I'm starting to see it now. There's companies that are coming out with whey and collagen mixed together. So it's one thing. Just watch your dosing. Make sure you're getting the right dosing if you're looking at those products. Okay, great. I'm so mad we're out of time right now. I feel like we got two things on my list done. But while we wrap this up, because I'm sensitive of your time and I just appreciate you so much, Mike. It's so great to get to know you and have a conversation with you.

1:00:38Dr. Mike Ormsbee:If people are looking for you, you said you, I know you have two, you're the author of two books too. Yes. So yeah, real, real, real fun read. So one's a textbook, which is an exercise physiology textbook, which is like a great like background resource. If you're a trainer or someone in ex-phys and just need like the nuts and bolts. The other one's more of like a, it's a, it's a book and a course what was made through a company called The Great Courses. That was bought by Wondrium. So it's like this continuing education courses and it's not overly like entertaining. You're basically in a classroom with me and they're 24, 30 minute lectures.

1:01:15So you can listen to them like on a commute. And it's just the nuts and bolts, but it's a really good base to have. Like if you want a base before you dig into like a hundred podcasts that get confusing, it's a good base to have.

1:01:27Dr. Mike Ormsbee:Oh, this is amazing. And this is for anyone, not just trainers or students. Yeah. Yeah. The great courses are really cool. They're, they're like any topic you could imagine, but the one that I did was on a changing body composition through diet and exercise. And it's for everybody it's made at any level. Um, it's, it's a interlevel. Okay, great. So they can find that online or your Instagram. What's your Instagram handle? Yeah. So Instagram is just at Mike Wormsby. And I try to put up everything from our lab there. A lot of our studies, these pre-sleep feeding things are things that are in and related to these topics we've talked about today.

1:02:05So it's a great resource there. And then, yeah, the great courses thing is available. Just if you just Google that title and my name, you'll, you can find it, but great sort of courses, Amazon has it a couple of easy spots, but yeah, I'd encourage a follow to see what we're up to and love communicating with if anybody has questions.

1:02:23Dr. Mike Ormsbee:Oh, that's great. Well, thank you so much again, Mike, for your time. And I just appreciate what you're doing in the field and your willingness to talk to my audience who I know are going to absolutely love this podcast. Great. Thanks, Haley. Anytime. Thanks for listening. If you enjoyed this episode, please consider giving us a five-star review and sharing the body pod with your friends. Until next time. What's up, everybody? It's Bretzky, and America is turning 250. And I can't think of a better way to celebrate that than playing on an American-owned social casino, SpinQuest.com. With all of your favorite games, live craps, bubble craps, live blackjack, there's no better place to play for free and win real cash prizes.

1:03:10SpinQuest.com. SpinQuest is a free-to-play social casino. Avoid where prohibited. Visit SpendQuest.com for more details.