Dr. Kelly Casperson on HRT Myths, Hormones, and Why Exercise Beats Everything

17:06Dr. Kelly Casperson:It's like, you got to make the decision with the data we have now, because it's unrealistic to wait for some philanthropist to give you a billion dollars to study this.

17:14Hailey Babcock:Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's the big problem with a lot of research or lack of research. It's the timing and the, and the money. Yep. Okay. So if we move on to what are the three bogus or grifty claims products slash treatments women should be wary of? I am a women's health NP and have taken the Heather Hirsch course. Unfortunately, a lot of women in this very vulnerable time of life getting taken advantage of. And I want to be more educated around the things that are being peddled that just aren't as effective, but cost a lot of money.

17:57Dr. Kelly Casperson:Yes. Very expensive red light vibrator.

18:00Hailey Babcock:That's a thing? Yes.

18:02Dr. Kelly Casperson:I won't name any names. Okay. That's one. But if it's a big ass hard plastic vibrator with red light therapy on it, and it's hundreds of dollars don't buy it please do please do not put this clip on social media you can put it on your podcast that's fine um but that's specifically so that's one that really bothers me um what else what other myths really bother me i don't know i mean here's the thing people complain when nobody's supporting women supporting women's needs supporting women's products supporting women's research we get all cranky when people aren't doing that And then when people are like female owned company trying to help women to support women and here's some products to help women, we're like grifters, right?

18:46Dr. Kelly Casperson:Like you can't have both. You can't have people not in this space and then a bunch of people in this space. You know what I'm saying? So it's like I truly believe a lot of people are trying to help women with women's problems. So I was at this entrepreneurial thing in Seattle and somebody came up and they are developing a cooling vest. like it's like a sports bra thing and it helps cool you and i'm like great well you know if you go on hormones that treats hot flashes by 90 like i'm literally trying to put your product out of business and she had no idea that hormones treat that problem so well so i'm like why are you developing a product that like i am trying to i'm trying to put you out of business because if women actually were on hormones they're not going to have hot flashes they don't need your product right so it's that's the thing is like don't don't create a product for like something that

19:38Hailey Babcock:if you actually help the woman they wouldn't have that problem yeah i i think so i was just at the um i don't know wherever i thought you were going to be but you weren't there wait what the hearse remember i saw i i i did with you the week before and i was like i don't know i was going to go to this one conference that you were at yeah and i canceled that one and went to this other one in New York. But this one, like we got this whole bag of goodies, you know, at the end, but half of these products, there was like some, this is what I think of when I think of like grifter products. It was like some tea and it was like, you know, this will take away cellulite and boost your energy.

20:23Hailey Babcock:And I'm like, this is just not getting this at a, at a menopause conference. And then there was some like, there was some like neck roll that's supposed to like, I don't know, take years off or whatever. I've been trying it. It's not working. But those things of all of these products that are now targeted to women in this age group that it's like, come on.

20:45Dr. Kelly Casperson:Well, yeah, but I, yeah, I agree. And I think women are vulnerable because they're undertreated. They feel miserable. They think there's a quick fix because that's the american dream is to have a quick fix to everything is like can i do something besides exercise please it's like no at the end of the day like the end of the day there's like nothing actually better than exercise and here i am i prescribe hormones for a living i am a physician i know so much about hormones i wrote a book on it my podcast is mostly about hormones and nothing is better than exercise nothing is better than exercise if you were like kelly you could wear an estrogen patch for the rest of your life and not exercise or you could exercise and not have hormones like pick the exercise and that and hormones do a lot but nothing is better than exercise so like to me i'm like are all these products just trying to get women to like if they're like can i do something

21:39Hailey Babcock:besides exercise like no exercise there's nothing better there's nothing better that's the tagline of the night okay so you should brand that hailey babcock fitness there's nothing to exercise

21:52Dr. Kelly Casperson:There's nothing better.

21:53Hailey Babcock:Yes. Yes. We'll think of something what happens on the end and it will, it will go. Okay. So 12 years post-menos, 66 years old, osteoporosis, want to start transdermal low dose HRT, but also have moderate calcium plaque. I feel like it's a toss up fall and break a hip versus heart attack. Thoughts on starting HRT. I do train with a trainer three times a week. I love that.

22:19Dr. Kelly Casperson:So make sure you're lifting and that you're eating enough protein so you can build your bones back. Everybody thinks, here's another myth, everybody thinks that a bone is like a fixed rod that never changes. Like bones change depending upon the stress put upon them. Why do you think astronauts can't walk when they come back from the International Space Station? Right? It's like because bones and muscles change because of their environment. so it all is not lost if you aren't on hormones and i always just want to say that you know because people are like but i can't take hormones the majority and i will put i will put a ton of money on this the majority of people who think they can't take hormones are wrong i will repeat that the majority of people who think they can't take hormones are wrong now you need a qualified trained hormone practitioner who knows that the age greater than 10 years post menopause you can't take hormones that is a myth it's not true if you read i would say it's this is free online for anybody who's a big old nerd uh 2022 menopause guidelines uh it says benefit outweighs the risk if you start within 10 years of your last period benefit outweighs the risk you need to know how strong how strongly worded that is medical system doesn't say that for many things the benefit outweighs the risk that is a massive statement okay now it's 10 years and one day since your last period did something magically change on that one day right you can see how arbitrary that 10 year rule is.

24:04Dr. Kelly Casperson:Okay, so nine years and 11 months after your period, that's fine. And then 10 years and one month after your period, that's not fine. Think about this logically. It makes no sense. But they drew a line in the sand. You got to draw a line in the sand somewhere and say, after 10 years, risk is individualized, benefits individualized. Consult with an expert. A lot of people who aren't experts, they say that means you can't have any hormones after 10 years. No, not what it means. Coronary artery calcium score, which is what that woman said, there is no coronary artery calcium score at which hormones are contraindicated.

24:39Dr. Kelly Casperson:You need an expert to be able to know that though. You have risk. You have risk. You're older and you haven't bet on hormones for 10 years. There's risk. That risk is very minimal, especially with a transdermal estradiol pack. So you need to see an expert. Doctors are getting trained faster than they ever have doctors nurse practitioners PAs everybody who can prescribe but they're still behind but they're catching up and the boomers I have a chapter in my book called the boomers are pissed I have a podcast episode called the boomers are pissed because the boomers were average age 51 in 2002 when the media scared all the women about their hormones and said the hormones cause heart disease and breast cancer they do not but they didn't get their hormones and they're 51 and now they're 70 and they're pissed because they didn't get them then and now they think they can't get them now.

25:28Dr. Kelly Casperson:About a third of my practice is perimenopause because perimenopause, it's a very symptomatic state because it's reverse puberty, right? Hormones up and down, up and down, up and down. I would argue that's the hardest part to treat because you're on a boat on a wavy water. Post-menopause, you don't have any hormones. There's no waves anymore. We just get to fill the boat, right? So a third is perimenopause. A third is average menopause 51 year olds and then a third of my practice is women in their 70s because they're pissed because their friends are breaking hips they've got osteoporosis and osteopenia they've been told they can't have hormones and they want a chance so if you don't have an informed doctor you go to midi go to alloy go to joy joy there's lots of online clinics now that see women in most states.

26:20Dr. Kelly Casperson:And I always say have a warm audience, right? If your doctor doesn't prescribe hormones and isn't up to date on all of this, that's not a really warm audience. But these online clinics, they prescribe hormones as a business. That's their business. It's a warm audience. So check them out.

26:37Hailey Babcock:Okay, perfect. All right, so next question. I've learned recently that with menopause, it is common. this is a this is like the question of the night kelly you're gonna love this one it is common that there is a thinning of the labia this in turn makes this tissue very easily irritated during any type of friction while exercising running cycling swimming have unfortunately been dealing with this for the past few years as a woman who exercises daily do you have any suggestions to

27:06Dr. Kelly Casperson:alleviate this problem yes fix it with vaginal estrogen with hormones so people like again it's it's health literacy, right? Like your labia and your clitoris and your vulva and your vagina and your bladder, for that matter, all became adult structures because of hormones. So it's no mystery. If you know what menopause is, you living longer than the production of your ovarian hormones. So if you know what that is, and now you say, oh, the things that required hormones to be functional are changing because the hormones are gone. Yes. Oh, replace the hormones. So I mean, it gets bad you know people joke oh what's a little vaginal dryness blah blah it's like these women can't sit they can't sit every time they pee they have to like spray their whole perineum with water because it burns so much they want to cry they've stopped having sex years ago like this is a massively big painful problem and women get dismissed all the time because of it but it's like this is a legitimate issue so hormones hormones hormones hormones see somebody who's trained in a good pelvic exam who can see what's going on there's lots of different options there's they're cheap mark cuban cost plus drugs vaginal estrogen 13 plus shipping do not be i always tell all my patients you should not be paying more more than 30 or 40 for your vaginal estrogen cream i can get it for 13 mark cuban pharmacy generic been around forever skin care for down there skin care

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29:21Hailey Babcock:We yell across rooms, across blocks, across generations. Yes, nice earrings, Grammy. And now we're doing it on our phones, too. Video calls from the L train, group chats that never shut up. Neighbors texting you the score before your TV catches up. Get a load of this guy. Ketchup. On a dog. Yeah, we've got thoughts. Because nothing here gets built without conversation. Nothing moves without connection. So, if you think you know AT &T, it might be time to rethink that. Because their network has improved, like, a lot. Which means Chicagoans can keep speaking their mind with the top-rated fiber internet in the city.

29:56Hailey Babcock:Chicago won't stop talking. Our improved network backs it up. AT &T, connecting changes everything. AT &T Fiber, limited availability in select areas. Top rated and fastest internet. AT &T Fiber, based on analysis by Euclid's Pizza Intelligence Data 2H 2025. So if someone has high LPA, is there an increased risk for blood clots leading to heart attack and stroke from using an estrogen patch? No. High LPA is a risk factor by itself for stickier blood-promoting arthrosclerosis. It is genetic, like familiar hypocholesterol, cholesterol, lemia.

30:37Dr. Kelly Casperson:Haley, you're doing awesome.

30:39Hailey Babcock:These are hard words. Good job. First of all, my eyes are terrible. I missed a question last week. You're sitting in the dark, first of all. So Kelly said, you look like a floating head, black with a black background. So one. Now I feel like I need to show my glasses.

30:56Dr. Kelly Casperson:Haley's in a dark cave, everybody, and she's reading very hard words and she needs her reading glasses and she's doing great. And a person is born with it.

31:03Hailey Babcock:Okay, that was the question. I'm not asking another one of those.

31:07Dr. Kelly Casperson:Yeah, well, you did great. So LP little a is basically a technical form of cholesterol, for lack of a better term. It's a newer risk factor. Not everybody checks it. Not all insurances cover it, but it is actually a more accurate risk factor than LDL cholesterol alone or total cholesterol alone, I think, especially in the female community. So everybody says it's genetic and fixed and you can't do a darn thing about it. Not true. Guess what lowers LP little a? Estrogen. So every time I see like, it's just a fixed genetic, I just read it in The Economist this week. It's a fixed genetic component.

31:42Dr. Kelly Casperson:Uh-uh, guess what happened to my LP little a when I threw on my estrogen patch. So there you go. Cardiac risk does go up when hormones go down because estrogen is anti-inflammatory. Estrogen helps keep cholesterol low. And we can go into that further so people understand it. But LP little a is not a contraindication to hormone therapy. If anything, it's a reason to consider hormone therapy, right? Like decrease your risks as much as possible. And make sure your metabolic health is dialed in. If you've got some risk factors. Here's the thing. This will be the next book. People think that their health is like fixed, like, oh, this is how it is.

32:20Dr. Kelly Casperson:Like, no. Why do you think the astronauts don't walk when they come back to Earth? Because your body changes based upon the forces surrounding it, what you feed it, how you move it, how you sleep, how you deal with stress. Are you feeling it? Alcohol, for the love of God, if you have a risk factor for heart disease, do not effing drink alcohol. Right? Like, that's what I want people to understand because they're like, oh, this is how it is. I got dealt a bad hand. No, you didn't. No, you didn't. Like the genetic risk for disease is actually very small compared to lifestyle risk for disease.

32:50Hailey Babcock:Yes. You're dropping bombs left and right, Kelly. I'm going to just walk around. I've been doing this for a while, Haley. Because I think I'll be a little late. It's not my first rodeo, Haley. Okay. If somebody's on estrogen gel and progesterone for four to five months, but still experienced breakthrough bleeding, went through menopause five years ago, should you be concerned?

33:12Dr. Kelly Casperson:They usually say at about six months, again, like, you know, are your hormone levels too high? Is something too low? I hate the word balance, but I would think like, you know, what are the doses? It can be adjusted. But especially in early menopause, like your tissues are just responding to hormones that you're giving them. So it takes a while. But if it, you know, to me, I have a very low threshold for getting a vaginal ultrasound just to see what's going on. You have a fibroid that's, you know, liking to bleed because you're giving it hormones. I have a low threshold for working it up. But especially in young menopause, when you start hormones, it can bleed again because the uterus loves hormones.

33:51Dr. Kelly Casperson:So the uterus is just kind of waking up. Okay.

33:54Hailey Babcock:I'm on the wavy boat, Kelly. I'm on the wavy boat and I want to get off. I don't want to get off the wavy boat. I'm seasick. I've lost my cookies on this wavy boat. I've lost my cookies. I left my dog outside last night. Luckily, not all night because it was cold, but things that I just don't do. And the floodgates are open. Yeah. It's yours. We've got to adjust your hormones. Haley. I know. I need to talk to Heather. We need to dial it in.

34:24Dr. Kelly Casperson:And let's expand that to be useful to other people here hormone therapy is not one size fits all and the thing i see very commonly especially in the insurance-based healthcare system where like you might see your doctor once a year or twice a year as people like hormones didn't work for me no you just didn't adjust them as needed right so that is like oh you might need things adjusted right now you might

34:47Hailey Babcock:need some more estrogen like so i just saw this on instagram um does estrogen is that like progesterone helps you fall asleep and then estrogen helps you stay asleep. Yep. If I'm waking up in the middle of the night, I'm not trying to turn this into the Haley show. Somebody.

35:04Dr. Kelly Casperson:It is the Haley show though. So it does get to be about Haley.

35:07Hailey Babcock:Somebody asked this in shred. And I was like, that's a good question. That's me too. So. What's up? It's bluff here. And are you sick and tired of that Chicago traffic getting to the casino? Well, spinquest.com makes it easy with over a thousand games, including craps, buck rock blackjack and slots to play from the comfort of your own home with instant cash prize redemptions and new users that sign up today get a 30 dollar coin package for 10 bucks you can't beat it so go sign up now spin quest is a free to play social casino void where prohibited visit spinquest.com for more details if you're waking up in the middle of the night could an estrogen dose change help?

35:48Hailey Babcock:Yep. Or a progesterone. They both can help. Okay. Yep. Yes is the answer. Yes. I love the answer. Is tinnitus related to menopause and is there anything you can recommend to get rid of it? I'm on hormone therapy and it has subsided during the day, but the nights are still noisy. Ah, interesting.

36:07Dr. Kelly Casperson:Lots of reasons. So tinnitus for people who don't know that's ringing in the ears. It's super annoying. It's like dry vagina, right? Like how bad is dry vagina? it's like how bad is ringing in the ear dude it's bob it's a it's a problem like it's like blurry eyes right how bad is dry eyes it's a problem like all of these things are a problem so ringing in the ears can happen for many reasons low low or fluctuating hormones is one of them so to me i would be like you know what's your dose do you want to try a higher dose but it's not hormones don't fix everything that ails us but they help healthy cells stay healthy and sometimes our doses do need to be adjusted.

36:44Dr. Kelly Casperson:And yes, it's a thing. There's more vertigo. My grandma had horrific vertigo and my mom has bad vertigo. And so I always care about the conditions that I'm like, hey, does hormones help decrease these things that my ladies have, right? Women who take hormones have less vertigo. Women who take hormones have less macular degeneration. So So again, hormones help healthy cells stay healthy. I want to have healthy cells as long as I can. That's the thing to think about. It's like, don't just try to fix it once it's broken. We want to keep the ship upright. We don't want to pull the ship from the bottom of the ocean.

37:24Dr. Kelly Casperson:We want to keep it upright. We got to keep the water from going in the ship. Yes.

37:28Hailey Babcock:Keep the water out of the ship. Okay. For someone who has an elevated risk of breast cancer and a history of seizures, is there any are there any forms of hormones that are safe to take hormones don't cause breast

37:41Dr. Kelly Casperson:cancer let's big let's figure that out first so really it's a what is it what's that called a non sequitur when you're like saying something but like hormones aren't even related to this question like hormones don't cause breast cancer next question so optimize if you have a high family risk of breast cancer you better not be effing drinking any alcohol girlfriend 10 % of breast cancers or from alcohol in this country. Knock it off. What about seizures? Seizures are not a reason not to be on hormones. I'm not sure why they think that is.

38:11Hailey Babcock:Okay. And I'm also going to throw in the legal advice that Kelly is not anyone's physician. This is education purposes

38:20Dr. Kelly Casperson:only. Red herring. I'm like, what is that word where you just say something that's like random and not related? Is that a red herring?

38:28Hailey Babcock:I don't know. I think so.

38:29Dr. Kelly Casperson:But in all seriousness, is. If that person was my patient, I would say, what is your actual risk for breast cancer? Are you up to date on screening? Do you need a bigger genetic workout, workup? I send people to my geneticist people when they want to, right? Because these women, they're just sitting passively being like, I've got this risk. I better not do anything for my health, right? And it's like, why do you think, let's have people think for a hot second. Why do you think that most women who are diagnosed with breast cancer are post-menopause, not on any hormones? Like the majority of people who get breast cancer have no hormones in their bodies.

39:03Dr. Kelly Casperson:Let's let that sink in. It's sinking in. Right? It's sinking in. And the big 2002 Women's Health Initiative, people who are on estrogen alone, had a 20 % decreased risk of breast cancer. And if you got breast cancer, you died less if you were on hormones leading up to the breast cancer diagnosis. Like, get educated. I can't encourage people to get more educated on this. You're living in fear. you're making shitty health decisions because you're afraid get educated about this like living in fear sucks absolutely sucks like knock it off well feisty tonight hailey but this is

39:44Hailey Babcock:hailey in the dark hailey in the dark hailey and kelly after dark okay what about cardiac health. That too is like a cardiac risk for someone over 65. Same thing. You kind of covered that, right?

40:01Dr. Kelly Casperson:Oh, well, cardiac risk is not a contraindication to hormone therapy. And remember, when we say hormone therapy, what do people think of? They think of swallowing an estrogen pill, right? Hormones are a very big tent, very big tent. Lots of animals in the zoo, right vaginal estrogen wallabies like wallabies and koalas both right so when people say hormones the colloquial thought is estrogen or oral estrogen which is what the risks were and remember the risk from the whi was oral synthetic that was oranges we're applying that to apples it's very different so under the hormone tent we've got progesterone testosterone transdermal estrogen, vaginal estrogen, all of these different things.

40:49Dr. Kelly Casperson:And so if you think I can't take hormones, that's insane. That's a very big tent. You got to break it down and be specific. So cardiac risk factors, there's, you know, what are, you know, what are your cardiac risk factors and how would starting hormones make that worse? Think about it biologically, physiologically, cellularly, right? Like this is, this is all logic and biology. It's actually, once you know the experts like this isn't we're not talking about like beliefs in Santa Claus like this is like science and health it's like not that bad it's not that it's not that scary once you understand it factor five Leiden is not a contraindication to hormone therapy oh I love you just saw that

41:30Hailey Babcock:one coming in okay um there's a whole there's a whole bunch there what are the options 10 years post-menno to preserve bone health at 60. So you can still like start and see bone benefits after 60.

41:45Dr. Kelly Casperson:Well, yeah, we start women in their 70s on hormones all the time. Okay. You need a trained clinician who understands individual risks and benefits, right? So for me to be like, everybody, no, you have individual risks and benefits, but the majority, this is what I, why are you, making age an issue like what other health condition are you like nope because you're 57 like do we do that to men sorry men over the age of 60 can't have testosterone like this age thing is very stupid but it came because the guidelines say risk benefit outweighs risk 10 years under but have you ever been to a high school reunion like everyone's never been to any of i went to Well, I have 30 coming up, but I'm not sure if I'm going to go.

42:35Dr. Kelly Casperson:But the whole point is for anybody who's been to a high school reunion, you're all the same age. Do y 'all look the same? No. Right. Health risks, you know, X, Y and Z. So like, don't use age as a reason that you can or can't do anything. It's it's it's very paternalistic. It's very not individualized.

42:57Hailey Babcock:it's a stupid way to think about things okay could you please talk about obtaining testosterone in canada and how to present to a doctor as this seems to be done very rarely here not like fda approved for libido although should be approved for other things as well canada man like canada

43:18Dr. Kelly Casperson:so i ever just right everybody knows i take care of canadians i live 20 miles from the canadian border. Canada's got some healthcare issues, but Canada's got legitimate access issues. But every province is different on can you seek second opinions and can you pay cash for concierge? Like every providence is different in Canada. So it's individualized. I'd say get educated, advocate for yourself. America's going to get an FDA approved female dose testosterone probably within the next three years. And that's going to be a very exciting time because I'm already busy. Wait till that happens. So it's coming.

44:01Dr. Kelly Casperson:I mean, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, and the UK already have a female-dosed testosterone product. So I don't know. That's what I have to say. Canada's underserved. Canadians are suffering greatly. The Canadian system is broken in different ways than the American system is broken. but access is a big problem in Canada.

44:21Hailey Babcock:I'm telling you the Aussies have it figured out. They have the testosterone dose. They have, uh, you know, social media ban. They are just leading the way down there.

44:32Dr. Kelly Casperson:They've got a pretty sweet system. I actually like, you know, when I was over there and I was learning about it, I'm like, uh, can America have this system? It's like, yeah, pay for more individualized care, but they've got a nice safety net. If you can't do that like i like it from everything i've read about it and experience and talked to people when i was there i'm like australia is good but this is what's not good about australia just to pick on australia for a second guess what happened in 2025 dementia became the leading cause of death and the uk the uk is right behind yikes yeah america america would be if we just didn't die so much sooner from other crappy things it's a testament to their living longer but they've got legitimate metabolic health, crazy drinkers.

45:16Dr. Kelly Casperson:Right. So like dementia is now their leading cause of death. It's frightening.

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46:00Hailey Babcock:I'm looking for relief from hot flashes.

46:03Dr. Kelly Casperson:Well, the question is, why can't you take hormones? Because remember what I said earlier, the majority of people who think they can't take hormones can take hormones. And there is nothing more natural than what your ovary naturally produces. Don't be fooled into thinking there's something more natural than what your ovary naturally produces. That's like the definition of natural is just exactly what you always made and then just giving it back to you. So that would be my question. It's like, why can't you take hormones? And then number two, there's non-hormonal FDA approved medications for hot flashes.

46:36Dr. Kelly Casperson:Vioza is a fesolinotent and enzolinotent, which just got FDA approved. They're expensive AF. They don't protect your bones. They don't do anything else. They only work on hot flashes. So they're like 10 times the cost and they only fix one thing, but they are available. And the other thing is exercise, exercise, exercise, exercise, exercise, Exercise helps a lot.

46:59Hailey Babcock:Okay, moving on to Addy. Thoughts on it and how long do you have to take it? Is it like Viagra where you have to take it daily like to get in the mood or is it working on other?

47:11Dr. Kelly Casperson:Good question. So Addy is an FDA approved medication for hypoactive sexual desire disorder, which is a medical term for low libido. It is a once daily pill taken at night. Side effects include mild weight loss and better sleep. So nice parks. Don't drink more than two alcoholic drinks a day or skip your dose. The generic is called flabanserin. It has been FDA approved for years now. Not many people know about it. Cost is an issue for many people. It is not like Viagra. How does Viagra work? Viagra is a blood flow drug. Blood flow. Blood flow to the penis equals erections. Blood flow to the clitoris equals orgasms.

47:54Dr. Kelly Casperson:So Viagra is a blood flow drug. Addi or flubanserin, same thing, just generic and brand name. It is a dopamine drug. So why do you desire things? Because of your dopamine pathway in the brain. You desire things that are rewarding, right? So don't take a drug in hopes that it's going to increase your desire if sex isn't good for you in the first place. You'll never make me crave mushy broccoli. Can't do it. Even if you increase my dopamine, I don't like it. So I think that's the issue for a lot of women is they don't understand how sex works in the first place. They haven't been prioritizing good sex in the first place.

48:33Dr. Kelly Casperson:And then they're like, I really wish I loved shitty sex. And I'm like, you can't love shitty sex. It doesn't work that way. So work on the sex. And then if you want to want, and sex is rewarding, you just want to want it that's where these medications come in so i always recommend reading my book listening to my podcast understand sex first we did not get a good sex education understand sex first understand the medications and option but what happens when a woman doesn't understand how sex works or their brain works and you just give her a pill and then guess what the didn't work shocking then she feels like a medication failure and she feels worse so to me it's education, education, education, and then try.

49:12Dr. Kelly Casperson:It's a very safe drug. To me, I'm like, it's incredibly safe, and it helps about 60 % of people. Cost is the problem, and sex education can go a long way. And dollar for dollar, testosterone helps desire as much as Addy does, and it's way cheaper, and it also helps with other things. So. Yeah. Okay. Actually, I just had an abstract at a medical conference. I think it was the Sexual Medicine Society in North America last month, the month before. I don't know. I didn't go. I've been busy doing, taking box warnings off of vaginal estrogen. But basically it was a comparison between testosterone and Addy and Felici.

49:53Dr. Kelly Casperson:And like dollar for dollar testosterone is an excellent bang for your buck. But not everybody can access that. And I have nothing wrong with Addy. Like my only complaint is women don't have sex ed, that's not Addy's fault. Addy's an excellent, very safe drug. Okay.

50:12Hailey Babcock:Do you recommend peptide therapy where indicated? What is the best way to find a highly competent doctor offering this? Any downside to this treatment?

50:21Dr. Kelly Casperson:Yeah. So for people who don't know, peptides are basically pieces of proteins. That's all a peptide is. Peptide is a very sexy term right now, but that's all it means is it's a piece of a protein. Like, let's not give it any more magic than it is. GLP-1s are peptides. So like when you say, when people say peptide therapy, you have to be more specific because there's tons of peptides out there. Most peptide, in the peptide land, GLP-1s are like the most well-known, most well-used. But there's a, it's not that peptides don't work. I'm not talking GLP-1s now. Now I'm talking about like the ones that are not FDA approved.

51:01Dr. Kelly Casperson:It's that the source, the source for them is very challenging. Like, how do you know you're getting a safe source? Even more, like, say you got a doctor who's going to give you peptides. How do you know it's sourced well? Like, you've got to do your homework on that. And there is not much research. So it's a lot of, like, the longevity world, and they'll agree, I'm not picking on the longevity world, I think they'll agree with this, longevity likes evidence adjacent or does not evidence-based evidence adjacent so buyer beware on sourcing on these things and there's not a lot of data so to me i'm like okay make this make sense women are afraid of their hormone their overing naturally makes that has so much data it's been around for 80 years but you want to go inject your yourself with non-fda approved sketchy source shit that has no research behind it and pay and pay like six times the cost so like if you care about safety cost and did i mention safety uh hormones your ovary naturally makes comes to mind yeah but women don't want that women want fast trendy new it's like let me let me tell you about something that's 80 years old estrogen and testosterone and exercise and oh yeah and exercise okay i don't i don't just so i don't think peptides are bullshit but we've got serious access problems and we have serious research data problems with them so dollar for

52:27Hailey Babcock:dollar i'm gonna put my money in other places first okay so um is testosterone should it be tested at a certain time of day or a certain time of time of month does it matter doesn't matter

52:39Dr. Kelly Casperson:the myth was earlier in the day the better there's a little bit of truth to that because we tend to make testosterone when we're sleeping, but that data is becoming less convincing. So to me, it depends. Like, are you on testosterone? Do we want to check it right after you dose to see what your peak is? Do we want to check it eight hours after you dose to see what your trough is? Or are you not on testosterone? We just want to get a baseline then check it whenever.

53:04Hailey Babcock:Okay. For those without a uterus and take progesterone, but wonder if they should be cycling it. If so, can you go long periods without it and then just take it when you feel like you need to balance the excess of estrogen or how does the cycling work? If you have excess estrogen, fix that shit first.

53:21Dr. Kelly Casperson:To me, I'm like, there's a little bit of truth to balancing, but a lot of the time there's no truth to balancing. So that's a little niche of a conversation. But if you're postmenopause, remember you have no hormones, you're just adding them in. So if your estrogen is too high, then your estrogen is too high. Don't put something else on. Like if you've got a meal that's too salty, like you shouldn't have put the salt in, but now you're trying to put something in to like make it less salty, right? Like, no, just don't put that much, don't put that much salt in. The calories tonight are on fire.

53:55Dr. Kelly Casperson:I'm loving it. Dude, progesterone is awesome. Progesterone is so good for the brain. We've got bone data for it. if you're taking estrogen at a minimum you should be taking progesterone at least two weeks out of the month most people post menopause just take it all the time they get helped so well with sleep like women are like why would i only take this twice at two weeks out of the month that's nuts

54:16Hailey Babcock:yeah okay um if you're on birth control and don't get a regular period how do you know when you've hit menopause i'm in my 40s and i'm in perimenopause so start taking estrogyle patch it's helped tremendously, but I'm curious about how to know when the next stage comes. Yeah. Doesn't really matter. There you go. Why does it matter? I guess it doesn't.

54:36Dr. Kelly Casperson:Does it matter? No, you're already on Estradiol. That's the thing. That's the thing. And I will encourage you to think about this. Like everything I say is backed up with like data and science and in my book. Like you never have to take Kelly's word for it. It's all out there, my friends. I was not born with this knowledge. I got it from somewhere. So menopause means one year with no natural period. That is a thing that happens because of low hormones. Well, you have fluctuating hormones that are sometimes low in perimenopause, right? So it's like, it doesn't matter. If the treatment is hormones, it doesn't matter if you're postmenopause or menopause.

55:10Dr. Kelly Casperson:It's a made-up line in the sand.

55:13Hailey Babcock:Is there anything that somebody should be asking their physician specifically in a topical cream, like for testosterone? Anything like they have all of the symptoms they want to take. They haven't taken hormones before, but is there any questions that they need to ask about the topical gels?

55:32Dr. Kelly Casperson:Are we talking about testosterone? Yeah. Yeah. So my advice for testosterone is start low, go slow. Don't start any more than five milligrams a day.

55:43Hailey Babcock:And don't put on half of the tube.

55:46Dr. Kelly Casperson:The body hates, what does the body hate? Body hates drastic change. Body hates that. What happens when the body has drastic change? Your hair falls out. Postpartum, thyroid issues, fast weight loss with GLP-1s, right? Stress. Hair hates all of that. Hair hates drastic change. Go slow. Go slow. Start low. Go slow. Somebody said, can you clarify what Kelly said? You have no uterus and you're postmenopausal and wake up through the night. Can you be prescribed progesterone in addition to estrogen? Hell yeah. Yeah.

56:19Hailey Babcock:Yeah, there we go. Absolutely. Even censored. She even censored her answer.

56:24Dr. Kelly Casperson:Am I supposed to do that? Do people in do people in Boulder have sensitive ears? I don't think they do.

56:28Hailey Babcock:No, I was just wondering what I can post. You said I couldn't post half of this on my Instagram. Got to find a good clip.

56:35Dr. Kelly Casperson:I don't like calling out specific brands and I didn't.

56:39Hailey Babcock:No, you did not. My question centers on how we can best separate fact from marketing spin when it comes to all things menopause we've become the target so we kind of talked about this but this is another um for all mark um markets products and supplement companies menopause now feels like something of a cure what absolute truth truths exist currently about health and well-being for midlife women i feel like you've covered that with just i feel like we did there's nothing more natural than what your ovaries naturally make yeah okay so don't be don't be marketed into

57:13Dr. Kelly Casperson:thinking something synthetic that we made as a proprietary blend in a factory somewhere is more natural than what your ovaries naturally make. It just is not true.

57:22Hailey Babcock:Yeah, that's a great answer. It's Bredski, and I know you're in Illinois, which means I know you can play on spinquest.com, America's greatest social casino, where you can play slots and table games absolutely free from the comfort of your own phone. And guess what? $30 coin package is only$10 today. if you want to push it to the limit. I love you so much. See you on SpendQuest.com. Goodbye. SpendQuest is a free-to-play social casino. Avoid where prohibited. Visit SpendQuest.com for more details. I understand it's a common occurrence for there to be an increase in abdominal fat during this transition.

57:59Hailey Babcock:Why? Yeah, ooh, that's a good one.

58:02Dr. Kelly Casperson:I see this, I see this. Okay, here's the analogy. When you're pregnant, all things else being equal, you exercise the same, you eat the same, but now you're pregnant. Okay, picture that. Did you gain weight even though you ate the same and exercised the same? Yes. Yes, you did. Why? Because your body was doing something else, right? So the absolute bullshit of like, you just need to eat less and exercise more. You shouldn't be gaining weight, blah, blah, blah. But your body's doing something different now. It's not making the hormones that it used to make. So here's a nice way of, so I want people to think about that and i want people to think about the pregnancy analogy because now they're like there's something different in the body and i'm gaining weight now even though all things else equal i'm eating the same and i'm exercising the same right and you can even stay the same weight but your body composition will change okay why called the metabolic syndrome of menopause your body is trying to make hormones the body's smart the body says my brain needs this stuff Everything else needs this stuff.

59:07Dr. Kelly Casperson:I need to make some now because I don't have ovaries that are doing it. So the body has compensatory mechanisms. This is a long spiel. But if you understand how your body works, how do I not become victim and prey to all this predatory? Understand how your body works. There. So body has compensatory mechanisms. It does two things in midlife to try to make hormones. What does it do? It increases your cholesterol. because cholesterol pathway is where testosterone and estrogen come from. So it's like, I'll make more cholesterol to try to get some hormones to push through this pathway. Compensatory mechanism, meaning it doesn't work that well and there's risks to having too high cholesterol, but it doesn't.

59:53Dr. Kelly Casperson:Why did my cholesterol go up this year? I didn't change my diet. I didn't change my exercise. My cholesterol just went up because I'm one year more into perimenopause, right my hormones are going down number two second compensatory mechanism increased visceral fat increased pooch around the belly why'd your body just start doing that because your body's smart it needs hormones it's trying to make hormones visceral fat makes shitty hormones it makes the inflammatory type of hormones it makes a high type of hormones that are linked to breast cancer the body's smart here we are beating women up being like you should just eat the same and exercise the same and this is doesn't actually happening well the body's trying to make hormones and it does it in two compensatory ways and it does it poorly because that's not as good of a way of it as just your ovaries making it so that's the long story of like visceral fat increase is real and there's actually a reason why it's happening don't let anybody tell you that it doesn't happen in everybody no but it happens and it happens for a reason it's because your your estrogen is going down.

1:00:57Dr. Kelly Casperson:If you understand your body, it all makes sense.

1:01:00Hailey Babcock:Okay. Has thinking on the use of estrogen shifted? I was told a year ago that they wouldn't prescribe me estrogen until I lose periods, only put me on progesterone, even though it did little to my big list of symptoms. Should I go in again and demand it? I have PCOS, so not sure if there's any influence on that decision or not.

1:01:19Dr. Kelly Casperson:If I can beat this into you, understand your body. Understand that a period happening is a not an accurate thing to see it to say if you can have hormones or not. Remember periods, that's a made-up word called menopause. What's happening? Your ovaries are decreasing their ovary production of hormones until it's so low you don't get periods anymore. What's that mean? That means your estrogen can be low before your periods end. The level at which of estrogen that you need to have a period is different than the level of what you need for bone protection, brain to work properly, all that stuff. So using a period is actually somebody who doesn't understand how bodies work.

1:01:58Dr. Kelly Casperson:And here's the other thing. Here's my biggest argument for hormones in perimenopause. Your greatest loss of bone strength, health, density, whatever you want to say, is in the two years leading up to your period ending. Millennials are smart. They're paying attention to the boomers and the Gen Xers, and they're like, hey, we see you guys suffering. we've got this great idea let's not suffer and and the gen x and the boomers are looking at the millennials and they're like oh good idea we thought it was a badge of honor and the millennials are like no this looks shitty let's not suffer in the first place so yeah it is changing we're just becoming a lot more common to start on testosterone progesterone and estrogen in the perimenopause remember menopause is a made-up term for a made-up thing that doesn't describe what's actually happening.

1:02:47Dr. Kelly Casperson:So don't use it as a reason to tell women they can't have health care.

1:02:51Hailey Babcock:Okay. I know that taking estrogen helps with bone health. Does that also include the bone in your jaw? I have pretty significant gum reception and my periodontist said it was because of bone loss. Yeah. Yeah.

1:03:03Dr. Kelly Casperson:It's not as well studied, but there was just a study on women on hormones had less periodontitis. So inflammation of the gums, which we know of course is associated with heart disease, right what is estrogen estrogen the hormone that helps healthy cells stay healthy so you take that away cells can't function as well and estrogen is anti-inflammatory so you see a lot more inflammation start happening in the body when the hormones go low joint aches and pains osteoarthritis chronic pain inflammatory things like rheumatoid arthritis fibromyalgia gum disease right Like all this inflammatory stuff.

1:03:42Dr. Kelly Casperson:We're like, this is happening out of the blue. No, it's not. You're living longer than your ovarian hormone production. We know why this is happening and we can treat it.

1:03:51Hailey Babcock:Yeah.

1:03:52Dr. Kelly Casperson:We, yes.

1:03:53Hailey Babcock:That's how we started this conversation.

1:03:55Dr. Kelly Casperson:One person said they're loving our conversation. Good. The sass is, the sass is, the sass is landing for some people. The sass is in full effect. Listen, how do you get, how do you get adults to learn? Do not bore them. If you bore them, they can't learn. They must stay entertained. I told you Kelly was a good time all the time.

1:04:14Hailey Babcock:Do not bore the adults. Do not bore the adults. What are the pros and cons of using an estrogen patch versus taking the pill? Oh, well, they're both good.

1:04:25Dr. Kelly Casperson:The pill is dollar for dollar. If all you care about is dollars, the pill is the cheapest way to go. Pill, slightly increased risk of blood clot. It's not huge, but the transdermal patch is no risk of blood clot. so it's a little bit higher than no risk of blood clot. If you worry about sexual desire, the pill can decrease sexual desire because of the way it's processed through the liver, increasing sex hormone binding globulin. It gets a little technical. But if you meet with a hormone expert, they can walk you through all of that. But know this, the bread and butter intro to hormones is usually a transdermal patch.

1:05:04Dr. Kelly Casperson:It's the most common thing. But not everybody absorbs at the same rate. Some people, you know, they've got skin that just doesn't absorb hormones well from a patch. We start thinking of them needing oral. Some women just need higher doses of hormones and need oral. So is somebody just asked, is the gel as effective as the patch? Yeah, they're pretty interchangeable. And the gel is getting cheaper. So it's a reasonable option for people.

1:05:31Hailey Babcock:Okay, now we're going into rapid fire time because we have like five minutes where we have to bounce. My feet hurt in the morning when I get out of bed and walk. Is this perimenopause related and what should I do?

1:05:42Dr. Kelly Casperson:That's a good question. It can be. I mean, other things I think of just like, are your hips tight or your knees tight or your ankles tight, right? Like, are things tight? You need mobility, blah, blah, blah. But a lot of people, and so Dr. Vonda Wright published a paper. It's open access, meaning it's free online. I think it was 2024. It's called the musculoskeletal syndrome of menopause, free online if you want to read it. You can bring it into your doctor. But so many women's aches and pains get better when they are on hormones. Remember, just to simplify that, hormones and hormone receptors are in every single cell in your body, including your joints and your ligaments and your tendons.

1:06:19Dr. Kelly Casperson:And hormones are anti-inflammatory. So many, many women, whether it's estrogen or testosterone, because I see it a lot with testosterone, their pain is a lot better.

1:06:31Hailey Babcock:Yeah. Okay. So we've talked about other benefits. Does HRT help with brain fog and cognitive function? I've been told that it does not. Adaptogens, in addition, is not relieving the brain fog at all. I want to know this too, because mine's still there. Clearly I need it. Haley, you need more hormones. Well, Heather's on my, I will text

1:06:53Dr. Kelly Casperson:tell there as soon as I get your get some labs done let's see what Haley's estradiol is anybody want to take bets um if you're on hormones and it's and you don't think it's working you can always try a higher dose you can get your you can get your I mean I've got some patients they just need higher doses of hormones to function um yeah hormones help brain cells what is going to help

1:07:15Hailey Babcock:so if outside of if this is for testosterone only outside of low libido why would somebody want to take it.

1:07:22Dr. Kelly Casperson:Because your ovaries make it and your ovaries decline making it as you age. And some people really like the idea of having their cells be as healthy as possible. So in America, there's zero FDA approved products for testosterone for women. We're actively trying to work on that. I literally had a talk with HHS last week, Health and Human Services. It's happening. Once it happens, it'll open up the floodgates on it. So there's a very different thing between, this is not rapid fire, sorry, I'm completely failing. There's a very different thing between what's FDA approved and what things actually help with.

1:08:02Dr. Kelly Casperson:What do I mean by that? A lot of people take birth control not to not get pregnant. They take it for other reasons, off-label, right? So when we talk about the benefits of testosterone, we're talking about off-label indications. It doesn't mean it doesn't work. doesn't mean there isn't any data. It just means we don't have an FDA-approved indication. Why is that a problem?

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1:08:51Dr. Kelly Casperson:Well, doctors, we're actually allowed to give drugs for whatever reason we want, right? Like, people don't know that. But insurance has decided we're going to pay for things that are FDA-approved. So that's the big problem. Because a lot of doctors are like, I'm only going to do it as FDA-approved. Well, they do. I guarantee you, your doctor does non-FDA-approved shit every single effing day. I guarantee you they do. Because you can't practice medicine without doing that. But why it matters is women have a higher cost to care because they don't have a testosterone that's FDA approved. I stop with that now because that's not rapid fire.

1:09:26Hailey Babcock:Okay. Can a woman with androgenic alopecia take testosterone?

1:09:31Dr. Kelly Casperson:Ah, is it actually androgenic alopecia? Do you have a diagnosis from a hair specialist dermatologist that's androgenic alopecia? My guess is no, because they don't even call it androgenic alopecia anymore. So it's an old term that doesn't really exist anymore and doesn't actually happen because you have high androgens. So I challenged the diagnosis and then I would individually say, what's your risk and benefit? Are you optimized as far as hair? And remember, testosterone does, do women not have hair when they're 32? I'm asking because that's when you have a very high testosterone, right? So it's not that testosterone causes hair loss, it's rapid change of hormones.

1:10:14Dr. Kelly Casperson:So the women who have no testosterone and they get a very high dose of testosterone, their hair falls out. Not specifically because of the drastic change. Hair hates drastic change. Hates it. That's why I say start low, go slow with testosterone. And I guarantee you, you probably don't have androgenic alopecia unless you're the very, very, very small amount of people who actually do and they don't actually call it that anymore anyways. So I always encourage people with any worry for hair loss, dermatologist who specializes in hair is your best friend. And they're actually, they're kind of hard to come by.

1:10:48Okay.

1:10:49Hailey Babcock:Is there a difference between the pill and the cream estradiol suppository? Ah, great question.

1:10:55Dr. Kelly Casperson:I like them both. It's anything's better than nothing, but I have, I call it the Kaspersen cream bias. The reason is for two things. Number one, there is nothing cheaper than the cream. Cream is the cheapest vaginal estrogen product. And And ideally, if you get your way, you're going to live 40 years beyond your ovarian lifespan, right? So we need cheap hormones. And then number two, you can put the cream on your clitoris, on your labia. The entrance to the vulva, it's a nice oval, the entrance, right? I call it the six o 'clock spot. This is on your vestibule or your vulva. This gets tight and thinned.

1:11:29Dr. Kelly Casperson:And this is where pain with penetration comes in a lot. And so if you just put a pill up your vagina, so it's up here, it can't help this area. and if you have cream you can rub it in this is what i say rub it in like you're in texas in august and it's sunscreen and you don't want to get sunburned i bet it okay haley's like got it got it balance vertigo issues are they common in perry and it can be and hormones help it can help Yeah, not always. There's many inner ear issues people can have, but hormones. You have estrogen receptors in your inner ear.

1:12:11Hailey Babcock:So what is the baseline for tests for testosterone levels?

1:12:16Dr. Kelly Casperson:Female testosterone mass spectroscopy. Don't get a male testosterone lab test. It's very inaccurate in levels less than 100 and all women's testosterone is less than 100? This is the best interview Haley has done that I've listened to. Lori, how many have you listened to? You've got to give us a denominator.

1:12:38Hailey Babcock:Have you heard the first BodyPod episode? Because it's fire. I'm telling you.

1:12:42Dr. Kelly Casperson:She says a lot. Okay. Then it's a valid compliment.

1:12:45Hailey Babcock:This is also my first one. Kelly's coming back on. We're going to have to have a part two, you guys, because we are out of time. Side effects for testosterone. Last question. If you go too high, you get

1:12:58Dr. Kelly Casperson:side effects of high testosterone. So start low, go slow. It's very rare at female physiologic doses to have side effects, but side effects may include greasy skin, acne, more hair where you don't want it. But at female dose, it's very rare.

1:13:16Hailey Babcock:And how do you know what the female dose is? because I, if you guys were paid attention to my Instagram, like a month ago, I got prescribed from someone local and it said, take the whole shell. And I was like, for sure this is wrong. Cause I'm running out of skin. Put the shell on there. Sure. This is way too much.

1:13:38Dr. Kelly Casperson:They do crazy things in Boulder. I'm allowed to say that I lived in Denver for six years. They have surgical astrologers in Boulder. It's a weird place.

1:13:46Hailey Babcock:so don't overdo it i mean don't overdo it five milligrams transdermal five milligrams a day

1:13:52Dr. Kelly Casperson:male dose is 50 milligrams so five milligrams a day is one tenth the male dose that's in the guidelines there's international guidelines for testosterone for women for uh low sexual desire but i have a whole chapter in my book on testosterone and it's of the three hormones testosterone estrogen progesterone testosterone is the first one in the book because it's the one we actually make the most of yeah and it's okay like oh yeah my so my website's Kelly Kasperson MD calm my clinic is the Kasperson clinic you just go to my website and click on clinic I see patients in Washington State right now but I'm getting a California and Oregon license because I want to take care of the whole I five corridor other online clinics for is for hormones or testosterone, J-O-I, Joy.

1:14:39Dr. Kelly Casperson:Excellent. Love them. Midi, M-I-D-I.com. Midi takes insurance, but Midi doesn't. Midi does less testosterone states than Joy does right now. But here's the good, exciting thing. I think we're going to have a chance. So testosterone is regulated by the DEA because of the Olympic doping scandals of the 1980s. It's a whole thing. It's in deregulate we we the the people are going to deregulate testosterone so hopefully state by state won't be an issue anymore it'll just be like any other prescription that's that's a hope for 2026 but i explained that all in the book if you're like what why is testosterone so complicated the book name well book's called um what is the book called the menopause moment hormone science i know it's a menopause moment f and m okay you have a book there yeah i've got a whole bunch

1:15:31Hailey Babcock:bunch of way i don't know a whole bunch of them way over here hold on yeah um if you if you were one of the lucky ones that got kelly's book um i just ratted myself out and said i haven't had time to read it so she needs to give me the cliff notes but there it is oh somebody put the link

1:15:49Dr. Kelly Casperson:that's so nice amazon barnes and noble etc etc and if you like my voice i do the audio yeah there you go that's what you i promise i'll have you laughing by page 63 and if i don't you need to deal with your stress.

1:16:02Hailey Babcock:We've got, we had like 80 questions that we never even got to in here. So Kelly, this is by far, um, the most questions that we've had on the spot. Well,

1:16:13Dr. Kelly Casperson:I mean, listen, humans are incredibly curious about how their bodies work. Like it's a fascinating topic. Yeah.

1:16:19Hailey Babcock:We're going to have to have a part two for Kelly. I love you, Haley. Next season. And I know where this is like Kelly is like my my girl. So I'm going to whatever conferences she she's at next year. Yeah. No. All right.

1:16:35Dr. Kelly Casperson:Yeah. I have an events page. I'm like, I'm not doing what I did this year. This year is crazy. But I will very likely be doing Vonda Wright's conference again, November 2026. I'm doing a freaking Florida. I'm doing another Florida conference in November. I might be in Florida twice in November. None of those tickets are up yet.

1:16:54Hailey Babcock:What about Colorado?

1:16:55Dr. Kelly Casperson:Come on. There's something that's penciled in in August, but I haven't committed to it.

1:17:00Hailey Babcock:Oh, okay. Well, text me when you do. I'm like moaning. I'm like, ah, I love Denver. I know you do. I know you do. All right. Oh, side note.

1:17:10Dr. Kelly Casperson:This is a side note just for Haley. I'll be in Breckenridge for a week in June, but it's not public. That's a family thing. But if Haley wants to come up to Breckenridge and have a cup of coffee.

1:17:18Hailey Babcock:You just made it public. Now everyone's going to know. I want Haley to come. All right. Thank you everyone for joining. This was a great way to end. I knew Kelly would be the good closer. So thank you all for joining for your questions. We tried to get through as many as possible. You did great. Those were hard words, Haley. Those were hard medical terms. You did very good. I know. Every time I'm like, I'm going to bring up my readers. And then I don't. And here I am sitting here. I wish you could see the font here.

1:17:45Dr. Kelly Casperson:You said hypercholesterolemia. Like, that's impressive. That was stressful.

1:17:50Hailey Babcock:All right. Thanks, Shred Babes. I love you all. Love you, Shred Babes. Thanks for joining, Kelly.

1:17:57Dr. Kelly Casperson:Love you.

1:17:58Hailey Babcock:Bye. Bye. Thanks for listening, everyone. If you enjoyed this episode, please consider giving us a five-star rating and sharing the body pod with your friends.

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