Why Podcasting Is the Next Big Gold Rush for Creators with Acast CEO Greg Glenday

0:00I think podcasting is poised. I saw digital rise and we saw social and what that did to the overall advertising ecosystem. And it feels pattern recognition wise like podcasting is about to do that.

0:13Ian Shepherd:That's Greg Glenday, the CEO of Acast, the world's largest independent podcast company. In this episode of The Business of Creators, Greg breaks down the future of podcasting, where it's headed, why it's changing fast and how creators and brands can win as it grows. I think podcasting is changing and, you know, it's changing quickly. And I think we're set up really well for where it's going. Greg's watch, social, digital and streaming all have their boom. And now he's betting podcasting's having its moment. Podcasting is the most open democratic content platform that's ever existed. There is literally no curation.

0:48It is just from the creator to the eardrum, right? So listeners seek them out. It's a piece of content that you want to go find, as opposed to an algorithm deciding that it's going to put it in front of you and hope you like it.

1:00Ian Shepherd:That's what makes it so powerful. No algorithms, no gatekeepers, just creators and audiences finding each other. But Greg also has a message for brands. Hey, right now for a CMO to bet on podcasting is risky. And we want to de-risk that. We want to make it brand safe. It works. It drives sales. It drives interest. It drives brand. And when it comes to AI, Greg's take is refreshingly human. There is no appetite for AI synthetic personalities. You know, people come to podcasting for the companionship. And I think that that needs to be authentic. We are not interested in creating 3 ,000 AI shows.

1:36I do not think that there is a market for that. And I think everyone's going to find that out.

1:40Ian Shepherd:If you care about where podcasting goes next, you definitely don't want to miss this one.

1:50Ian Shepherd:Greg, Acast is now the largest podcast-only company in the world. What do you think has allowed ACAST to scale so successfully? Yeah, I think, you know, ACAST really started as a tech company. And I think the idea that dynamic ad insertion 10 years ago was going to be the future, by leaning into that, I think they made a decision way back then that wound up being really important for us as a company. That became the backbone of how podcasts make money. So as small podcasters started looking for hosts and distribution and monetization, Acast was one of the companies that was doing that on a global basis.

2:25I think starting in Stockholm, you know, you look at so many amazing companies have come from Sweden per capita. They've created quite a few. I apologize. We're in New York City. There's some horns and sirens. But because we started in Stockholm, where Spotify and Angry Birds and so many interesting companies have kind of come out of there that moving from Stockholm through Europe to the U.S. was kind of an interesting kind of the reverse engineer to what other people were doing. So I think we got a little bit lucky that we sort of leaned into what the industry needed globally. And then RSS is sort of, you know, it could be any language.

2:56So I think the idea that podcasting is borderless, we've always leaned into that. And I think that's really helped us grow at this pace. To grow this quickly in 10 years is because of the technology.

3:06Ian Shepherd:I'm keen to get into the detail. I actually spent some time myself in Stockholm working for King. So I know exactly what you're talking about there. Yeah. So you've got more than 100 ,000 shows on the platform. how would you describe the podcast industry right now? Yeah, I think, you know, it's maturing. I mentioned to you, we had an offsite. We had a bunch of people from the Acast team around the world come into New York last week. So we've been talking about this a lot. And, you know, since podcasting is 20 years old, I think that's officially how old the word is. Steve Jobs made up the word on stage 20 years ago.

3:40Acast is 10 years old. But if you think about it, really, it's the last two years where I think podcasting has really matured. It was kind of this wild, interesting thing with, you know, individuals that could just open up a mic with very low cost and start talking to people. No checks and balances, no official business, you know, sort of no regulations. And I do love that about it, that, you know, it's sort of a meritocracy. Anybody can start a show. And if it's good and interesting, listeners will find it. There's no executive Burbank with a tie on and saying you're worthy of being a podcast.

4:11It's just up to you. So I can tell you that the advertisers, I came in with more of a commercial focus in the company. And I started talking to big advertisers about why they weren't in podcasting. And nobody had a really good answer. It was more like, hey, it's just, it's difficult. It's hard to buy. We don't really understand it. We realize that it's influential. So I think podcasting is not 20. It's not 10. Maybe it's two years old as a mature business. And it's happening fast. So I'm really excited about, you know, this feels like the beginning, not the end.

4:42Ian Shepherd:And it's now a billion dollar industry. How do you think about it compared to something like YouTube or TikTok when it comes to creators? Yeah. You know, going back to like that small nuance point about, you know, you and I could start, we could hit it off on this interview and decide to start a podcast this afternoon and we could be up and running tomorrow. And we don't have to worry about an algorithm. We don't have to worry about it. No, we have to promote it. But we don't have to worry about, oh, they've tweaked the algorithm and now nobody's seeing our content. Or it's our head of communications, LP and I, you know, we use the term sought, not served.

5:19Right. Listeners go like I go find the podcast that I like you seek them out. So it's something that it's a piece of content that you want to go find as opposed to an algorithm deciding that it's going to put it in front of you and hope you like it. So I think that's really, really unique. And, you know, I think that's what's allowed podcasting to grow. Shows will come and go. And we've all had shows that we've loved and they start to wait a minute. They're not as interesting. Maybe they've lost steam or maybe they've just. and you know, maybe I listen to them less and I start listening to other stuff more.

5:50So I think the idea that listeners can curate their own set of podcasts that are what they listen to. I've probably got 25 in rotation. Some of them are religious. I can't miss them, you know, a couple of times a week. Some of them are once in a while, depending on the guest. And some of them are just based on my mood. Like I may want something funny and you know, it's the end of the day. I'm walking the dogs. I don't want any more business podcasts. I want to listen to something that's going to make me relax and laugh. So I think that's what's amazing about it is you can almost find anything that you can unpack.

6:20Ian Shepherd:And I know that the business has been very vocal about it being open versus a walled garden. Why is it that you've taken that approach? Exactly what I just said. I'm glad you asked that because I think everyone sees a business like this and they try and create these walled gardens around it. And that's not what people want. We send our content. If someone is a host with Acast, we've got some creators coming in this afternoon into our New York office. We've got a studio here and it's just, it just feels really, really direct. You know, we've got our creators and they've got their audience, right?

6:52ACAST's job is not to get in the way of that relationship. Our job is to get obstacles out of the way so that they can enhance that relationship. How do we make sure that they can get to more listeners? We've got these really authentic human beings creating shows and really authentic human beings consuming the shows. And then our job is, how do we get those brands and advertisers? How do we let them rent that relationship between those two constituents and make that as easy as possible? Just remove the friction. So that's what we've been trying to do. And I think that's really been working. And that's how, you know, an open ecosystem really encourages that.

7:25If we're out there and we see a show getting successful and we start saying, just come to ACAST and don't do anything. We want those shows to be as successful as possible. So we send our content to over 100 different podcast listening apps, devices, podcatchers, pocketcasts from Apple to Spotify. We don't want to tell the listener how to consume it. So that should be up to them. And that should be the relationship between the creator and the listener. So to us, there's really no other way to do it. Podcasting is the most open, you know, democratic content platform that's ever existed. So there is literally no curation.

8:02It is just from the creator to the eardrum. And I think that's why it has to be open.

8:08Ian Shepherd:You see it playing out, the difference between RSS-driven and Apple and Spotify. Yeah. You know, I think at the end of the day, we're not really focused on where the... You take any of our shows from Peter Crouch to Tony and Ryan to the Giggly Squad has exploded. Giggly Squad has become one of our most important shows. They're hilarious. They reach their listeners in lots of different ways. so everything starts with RSS and it starts with audio and then however else they want to reach their listeners should be up to them and again we want to be able to facilitate that if it's some of them are succeeding on YouTube some of them are seeing YouTube some of their listening so every show is different and so we do a lot of data and insights to help inform them on what makes sense for them but we're not going to tell them what to do a lot of them do live events so hey if you're going to meet your listeners at a live event we'll help find sponsors for that so it's not just dynamic audio ad insertion through programmatic.

9:04We do the automated stuff all the way to the bespoke, you know, live events, tours, YouTube, product placement, all of those things. So I'm excited to see where it goes. But the more agnostic we are, I'm certain there's a platform we don't know about yet that someone's cooking up either in Silicon Valley or somewhere in Stockholm. There's a new platform we don't know about yet. And we're going to be happy to be there.

9:27Ian Shepherd:The fact that you referred to the Peter Crouch podcast there, just a retired British footballer who's doing an amazing job, right? Yes. You mentioned at the start about technology and it being primarily a technology company at the start. How much further do you think technology can take monetization for podcasts? I think much further. You know, I think I love all of our advertisers. We have a lot of direct response advertisers. but it's 2025 and we're still doing, you know, podcasting doesn't feel as advanced as some of the other digital parts of the ecosystem that I've been involved in. And, you know, 10 years ago, I was the CRO for an ad network that had better data than podcasting has now.

10:07And that was 10 years ago. So I think we have a long way to go on being able to provide the right data for people, making it a little easier, more certain, you know, what you're getting. But at the end of the day, the reason that the industry is growing is that it works, you know, like it, they get results. So if you're a blue chip advertiser, you know, somebody who's very data sensitive, like a Unilever or Procter and Gamble, where they really care about data, but you know that there's a platform that will sell products, you're going to find a way to do that. So we just have to help the industry solve that problem and just get a little bit more sophisticated.

10:39You know, it's just like, I'm glad you brought up Peter Crouch. Cause I think every athlete, especially all the American athletes, when they retire, they assume they're going to be famous and have a podcast and go on, you know, and go on. Not all of them, you know, you may not have a great personality for that. I think Peter Crouch is very special. If it's one thing to be witty in the locker room or like on the bus or the plane rides with your team, it's another thing to have a show that you can sustain for years. You know, a lot of athletes have like five good stories and then what, you know, then what do you do?

11:08Like you have to be interesting beyond that. So it's not so easy. And the ones that break through, like he has, are a great example of that meritocracy.

11:16Ian Shepherd:Makes absolute sense. And what about AI? It's 2025. How do you see AI impacting podcast discovery, creation, monetization? Yeah, I'm actually, we're pretty passionate about this. And I think we might have a slightly different point of view than the rest of the industry. But this is, we're pretty dialed in on how we think about it. Actually, we have an incredible head engineer. She's an SVP who runs engineering and she's got a degree in AI. So we actually have somebody who was doing AI before it was cool. She's got a master's around it. And when we think about it, I actually think there is no appetite for, and I know it's fun and people like to, there is no appetite for AI synthetic personalities.

11:55You know, we have Mark Maron retiring next month from podcasting after 16 years. He's one of our shows in the U S and he's amazing, but we have had nobody reach out and say, we would love for you to create a synthetic Marc Maron that will continue on, you know, the show. Nobody wants that. I think, I think the listeners have proven that like they'll tolerate some announcers, some AI voices, maybe weather, traffic, sports scores. If it's soulless, I think that that's okay. Maybe around the edges, maybe some stuff with advertising and creating ads, but people come to podcasting for the companionship.

12:30And I think that that needs to be authentic. And we're pretty set in stone that that needs to be authentic. We are not interested in creating 3000 AI shows that are just gonna it's I do not think that there is a market for that and I think everyone's gonna find that out so our belief at ACAST strongly is genuine human being creator genuine human being audience and then we use AI and tech in the middle as much as possible so we've already gotten much more efficient with smart recommendations and which shows belong on a plan so we are using AI like crazy but just not on the content side I think that is lazy and not what people are looking for.

13:07So we might be alone, but we might be alone in that, but we're making a big bet on it.

13:11Ian Shepherd:No, I think that makes sense. And you're not worried about AI voices flooding the market then? If they do, I think the listeners vote. The listeners will say they do not want that. Like, I don't think anyone's going to be, I mean, there are some fringes and there's people that will listen to anything, but I think podcasting has a long future of genuine content. And I think genuine and authenticity, that's what all the marketers want too. They're looking for authentic content. You know, the reason that Taylor Swift got engaged on a podcast or, you know, five years ago, she would have done that on Instagram.

13:41And now the reason they wanted to do it is because it was a story to tell. There was an authentic story to tell to unpack their, like the complex relationship and all the things that happened. It was a story. And that's what podcasting is. If you look at the election, they all call this the podcast election. It's not that people bought ads in podcasts, that the actual candidates and the cabinet members went on these shows so they could unpack their views in a longer form way. So if I'm an advertiser for BMW or Coca-Cola, it's like, well, wait a minute. If these people can influence how people perceive them, my brand should be able to do the same thing.

14:16So I think that's what it's going to be. And I think there's a place for AI, but it's going to be in the tech, not in the content.

14:21Ian Shepherd:Taylor Swift example is a great one there. So with regards to AI, can you share what you are working on at all? Yeah. So the two things that we've leaned into and we've released is in our self-serve platform, it's kind of cool. So we have a self-serve portal where smaller advertisers can go in. And we basically looked at in there, like all the places that they were getting stuck. So we've had thousands of advertisers come through and book campaigns. Many of them were getting stuck on, they get confused on what to buy. So they go in, they put their credit card in, they like, they register, they start an account, they start putting all their info in.

14:54And then they're like, We don't know what to buy. So we use AI now with the company Podchaser that we have a wholly owned subsidiary called Podchaser. That's the biggest data company in podcasting. We use Podchaser data inside our smart recommendations platform. So when someone goes in, they can use natural language. They don't have to be an expert. They can say, I own 100 pizza places in the UK. Here's what my customer base is like. Here's what I'm trying to advertise. What shows should I buy? and we will recommend a dozen shows based on their budget, maybe 50 shows based on their budget. And it will be a bunch of shows.

15:27The top aren't the biggest, but we think will work the best. So we put all of our info in there, attribution data, all kinds of stuff so we can recommend a media plan for those advertisers. So that's one. And then the other one that we just started doing was creating actual ads because the creative, many times they don't have a script or they only have a script, but they don't have a production house. So we've been producing manually ads for these small advertisers. But if someone's spending 20 ,000 pounds or 10 ,000 pounds and we're in the studio creating ads for them, that's not really efficient.

15:59So we've partnered with a couple of different companies to create essentially a creative studio for AI ads. Put in your script, put in your talking points, and you can get 5, 10, 20 versions of your ad that we can then insert into the shows and it'll work better. So we're using it for ad creative and ad planning so far. among other efficient, you know, efficiency things on the engineering side.

16:21Ian Shepherd:Makes absolute sense. Staying on the topic of AI, do you think we could ever get to a point where there are personalized individual episodes for listeners further down the line? I think so. I think even ads could get more and more personalized where it's like, you know, I live in a house with, you know, three teenagers and two adults. And we already get, we get different ads, you know, across all of our, you know, digital life lifestyle. But, you know, as we get better at it, we're starting to figure out, you know, we'll start to figure out how to do that with podcasting. But podcasting is such a one-to-one thing.

16:55You know, it's so personal that, you know, all the comparisons to radio and satellite are kind of crazy to me because I worked in radio. Z100 in New York is an unbelievable radio station and it reaches 25 million people in the tri-state area in a broadcast. when you're podcasting you know you could have that same content but it's in somebody's airpods and it's in their ears and you're having a one-to-one conversation there is no reason that it needs to be a generalist ad it should be you know i don't know what scare people where we would say hey ian this is your you know uh this is your marks and spencer ad but whatever it is like we would make sure that it makes sense but why not i think that's the kind of uses for ai that make a

17:33Ian Shepherd:ton of sense it makes sense it makes sense and i always find that podcasting such a personalized experience. So you're working across the globe in every single market. I'm really fascinated, like, what sort of trends do you see between different countries? Yeah, you know, that's another thing that, you know, say, it was great planning, but ACAST really is lucky in that we are the only true global company doing it this way, like really thinking about, you know, it's somewhat borderless medium, you know, so the way we think about it is, I've got a small enterprise team that are kind of subject matter experts.

18:08It could be from ad ops, content, creative sales, revenue, finance. So we've got the small group at the center that's best practices, but then we allow the markets to localize because if you think about it, we've got more than half of the market share in the UK. So if you think about the UK, we should have a different approach than somewhere like the US where nobody has a dominant market share. It's a little bit different here. In Australia, they compete with big radio companies still. Radio is still very cool in Australia. So they compete with radio companies. When we get a show like Tony and Ryan, they joined us last year.