Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)

28:29I remember realizing that my left index finger was doing too much work. It had been reaching across the keyboard to the right side to do stuff. And I couldn't do that anymore because they were split. and so it actually kind of fixed my form in that way I was like this finger shouldn't be doing that much work it should be staying over here on its side and so yeah there are certainly things that you would learn along the way I want to go back to what you mentioned about unless Adam on the split stuff do you have more or can we move back to the wires just one thing I want to mention on the split and it's not necessarily the split it's the ability to try without having to buy I found this resource on your site it's a full size printout of the ErgoDox EX.

29:13And so that way you could just print it off and put on your desk and at least get a feel for it. And you can cut the paper and fake it essentially and just kind of get a feel for it with just a print, you know, print the paper. That's it. Yeah, exactly. We have one of these for each of our keyboards and you just print it out at a hundred percent. It even comes with a little ruler so you can put a real ruler next to it and verify you got it right. And then, yeah, you just place it down and figure out, okay, where's this going to go in my space? Does this even feel good?

30:09with integrations, SSO, dealing with rate limits, retries, auth, all the things. Yeah. So there's a lot here. And I think there's a lot of aspects to the different problems that you have to solve in the integration story in building these integrations and also providing them in a user-friendly way for your customers to self-serve and onboard and consume those integrations. So part of what the Paragon SDK provides is that embedded user experience, again, what we call our connect portal. That's going to provide the authentication for your users to connect their accounts. That's going to be the initial onboarding.

30:44But in addition to that, your users may also want to configure different options for settings for their integrations. A common example that we see for Salesforce or for CRM integrations in general is that your users may want to select some type of custom object mapping. Every CRM can be configured differently. So your users might want to map objects to some different type of record in their Salesforce or different fields in their sales force and typically that's what developers would have to build on their own is this ui for your users to configure these different settings for every single integration that's also going to be what's provided by the paragon sdk is not just that initial onboarding and authentication experience but also the configuration end user ux for different settings like custom field mapping selecting which types of features on your integration that your user might want to configure.

31:35And that's also going to be provided fully out of the box by Paragon SDK. Okay, cool. That's the front of the house. That's the UI layer that developers are getting solved. What about the backend, the rate limiting, the retries, et cetera? With integrations, different APIs might have different rate limits. They might have different policies that you have to conform with. And your developers typically have to learn these different nuances for every API and write code individually to conform to those different nuances. With Paragon, because we build and maintain the connector with each of the integrations that we support in our catalog, we're automatically going to handle for things like retries, things like rate limits.

32:16For example, Paragon knows the rate limit for each provider and will automatically throttle your requests so that you can conform to the rate limit for those providers and be able to intelligently retry requests in the event that you exceed the rate limit or a request fails. And so we look at this as sort of the backend or infrastructure layer of the integration problem that we have spent the last five years essentially building and optimizing the Paragon infrastructure to act as the integration infrastructure for your application. Okay, Paragon is built for product management, it's built for engineering, it's built for everybody.

32:51Ship hundreds of native integrations into your SaaS application in days or build your own custom connector with any API. Learn more at useparagon.com slash changelog. Again, useparagon.com slash changelog. That's U-S-E-P-A-R-A-G-O-N dot com slash changelog.

33:31i'm down with wires dear talk about wires man well eric is down with wires and he's he's out with wireless i mean i think you're gonna say latency but i'm wondering what you're you made a strong stance on wires like we we use wires and we're i think you said we're always going to use wires for the foreseeable future you know for as long as you know nothing in pipeline wireless. Okay. Yeah. I have many feelings about wireless stuff. I have many emotions. It's not actually latency. I don't think that's the thing for us because we are not particularly low latency. I mean, we're not targeting that.

34:05We're not for gamers. For me, I really want to make a keyboard that people can use in 15, 20, 25 years to have a reasonable expectation of being able to use this thing. So what does that mean? It means that the parts I use, first of all, it means the hardware design. It's something you should be able to open up, right? You should be able to open up and poke inside, replace bits and pieces. Of course, as long as I'm in business, I also sell replacement parts, but many of these are non-proprietary. You can just get them anywhere, key switches and whatnot. It's a mechanical keyboard, so it has moving parts.

34:46and the number one moving part is, of course, the key switch. So the key switch should be hot swappable. You should be able to just pull it out like you pull out a tooth and stick a new one in because that part will break over time. We were, by the way, one of the first hot swap keyboards in the world. Nowadays, it's kind of a common feature, but if you dig through the Internet Archive, you'll see us as one of the very first to get there. So it's a lot around repairability. Or if you take the firmware, for example, again, QMK, QMK is open source and is not. ZSA sponsors QMK development. We're one of the few companies that actively pay for a developer to work on QMK.

35:27But we don't own the code base and we don't control it. Which means if ZSA were ever to go out of business, the firmware is still there. You can totally flash it. Like imagine if Sonos went out of business. You know, I got Sonos speakers. Imagine if Sonos tomorrow packs up and that's it. Preach. Okay. At least their new stuff has Bluetooth, but I don't have the Bluetooth ones. I have the Ikea thing and a couple others. And if Sonos were to call it quits, okay, now I got paperweights. Right. So repairability goes to the firmware. It goes not using glue, not using clips that break on people, just using sane and normal screws in shapes that people actually have bits for.

36:12And we have teardown guides for each of our keyboards. We show you in detail how to take it apart. Except for the Ergodox EZ, that teardown guide is actually by iFixit, who tore it down and gave it 10 out of 10 on repairability. So what's that and wireless? What's the connection? Why am I going on a big repairability rant when we're talking wireless? Because wireless means batteries. to make a product wireless it must obviously include a power source and those batteries there is a lot there first of all i mean there's a whole like sustainability aspect of even making them which i won't go into because yeah obviously myself i have a battery in my laptop i have a battery in you know many gadgets i use but it does take resources to make them but more than that they will die.

37:06A battery is basically like a timer for a product. This to me is like planned obs lessons to the max. Sometimes, you know, if it's a laptop or a camera, let's take a camera, a camera, obviously, okay, I need to take the thing outside for it to work. So it needs a battery. Laptop, I got to travel with it. Okay, I accept that. Phone, some things need a battery. A keyboard is going to literally live on my desk its entire life within like, I don't know, 10 inches of a power source. It does not need a battery. And by putting one in, I'm effectively guaranteeing that in a decade or 15 years, it goes to the landfill.

37:47I had the pleasure of talking to Kyle Wiens. I know you know his name because he started I Fix It. he came on the show i want to say at least in the last year i feel like it was yeah march this year the show is called we have a right to repair exclamation point because that's how i felt after talking to him and he said he said this i'm going to quote something he said in that show he said if you buy a thing this is concurring with what you're saying quote if you buy a thing with a battery you're just renting it love it the battery's going to wear out that's a consumable so anything with a battery that has a lifespan of 500 to a thousand charge cycles you're just renting it depending on how they configure that battery so he went on to say about the apple airpods which is a very popular wireless and i like them i love i don't know how you would make them with wires if otherwise that is kind of the feature of the thing but it's still true that they got about 500 maybe a thousand charge cycles how how frequently do you charge your airpods i don't know daily nightly constantly maybe you get a year or so out of them battery life wise you're just renting it that's what he said that's really really true and that's also an interesting segue because that it's interesting that you mentioned the airpods because uh there's this company the company that makes the fair phone have you heard of the fair phone okay so this is a black and white one no no black and white it's an android device it's basically a mid-range android device, just a phone, but the thing is they actually make it repairable.

39:23So the battery that they need to use is user replaceable. The whole thing is repairable. And they recently announced wireless earbuds and they look kind of like, you know, kind of like the Apple ones, but they have a battery that you can replace. They actually were able to design the thing so you can open it, take out this tiny battery, pop a new one in and ta-da, a new lease on life. So if you need a battery, at least make it easy for me to replace. But if you don't absolutely need a battery, if your product is going to just be stationary for the most part and live right next to some sort of power source, such as a computer, like my keyboard requires a computer to do anything, that computer should give it power.

40:08That's a whole bunch of obsolescence we avoid right there. And I have people who backed the original Ergodox EZ back in 2015, got it, you know, early 2016 or December or whatever, December 2015 or whatever, and writing into this day saying, yeah, you know, I have a question or this thing or they're still using it. And the configurator, by the way, still works with it also. That's cool. Yeah. I agree with you. I think that's a really good reason. I think that there are probably contexts, and I can think of some, in which a wireless keyboard is really a nice thing to have. But I understand as a trade-off, perhaps that doesn't make it worth it.

40:49And I think even in terms of simplicity of manufacturing and production, probably keeping your prices down as well as a business, there's probably some concerns there as well, like make these things as simple as possible? Or is that not a... No, not a huge concern. As a business, actually, our costs are super high. Our economics are weird. We invest much more of the total cost of the keyboard that you pay goes into actually making the thing. And I'm fine with that. I'm okay because, again, we make the keyboards in Taiwan. And they're made by people who are employees. Not our employees, but T-Bo's employees.

41:26And they're paid well. And the whole thing is just expensive to make. Like when you do something right, it tends to be expensive. And if I really believed that wireless was the way to go value-wise, I would go for it. Even if it made the keyboard more expensive, that's fine. That's not, I don't compete on price. What do your margins look like? If you don't mind us asking, like percentage-wise? Not amazing, but sustainable. It's really a question of what game are you trying to play as a business owner? if my game was to grow and grow and grow and like become another logitech i should look at my margins but if my game is to provide something of supreme value to people who recognize what that is and understanding that my thing is a niche i make a niche product and i want to build for and optimize for longevity not for a scale but for longevity to still be here in 5 10 15 who knows how many years I'm good.

42:28It's a question of what game you choose to play. That also goes with the fact that we don't have investors. Our Indiegogo backers are the OG investors in a sense. They invested in a keyboard. They got a keyboard. And that's how we got our start. And that's it. We are fully, fully, like I say, no to capital. I have people trying to give me money every now and then. I'm no, sorry. Like, no, we're, we're good. That's good. Yeah. This, uh, this person you mentioned who bought the OG ErgoDox EZ back in the Kickstarter day, I guess, or the Indiegogo days. Sorry. I used Kickstarter cause it's a, it's like Xerox, you know, is it a Xerox?

43:08Is it a copy? I don't know. This person or that kind of person, that persona, let's just say, when it comes to a business, when you look at that kind of person who's purchased nine years ago or the oldest of purchases. How much money do you make off of that person? Do they come back and rebuy anything because you have this sustainable, which I totally agree with. I'm just wondering how that hits the bottom line. And I know that you're optimizing for that sustainability and longevity, but realistically a customer who is that old or that length of a customer and they buy the thing one time way back, how do you make more money off of them?

43:46How do you kind of vertically grow within one customer? Is it referrals? Is it recommendations? Is it happiness? And they're doing a talk at a conference and they're showing up their keyboard and it's like it's infectious because they meet people and they're an influencer, just whatever. How does that work? So it's a good question. It's not something I think about and it's not something I optimize for. For me, what I care about in like kind of an ideal scenario is you buy the one keyboard once and you are done. Keyboard people call that end game. You got your keyboard, it's working, and this is it.

44:24And for many people, we do hit that and we provide support like in firmware for a long, long time and our warranty is fairly generous as well. So there are many people who buy the one keyboard and they're done. But those people then often do two things. one is they subscribe to our newsletter we have uh i'm sorry i'm being very immodest here we have a very good newsletter okay it's not it's called the ergo it's not about only keyboards it's kind of a more it's it's once a month and we put a lot into it and those people subscribe and they stay engaged like i get fan mail for the newsletter every month i get people writing back and saying oh, I love this issue.

45:15I use this. We recommend tools from across the web. We recommend resources, whatever. So they remain engaged. And then the other thing they do is, yes, they talk about us. We pretty much rely on that because we don't work with influencers. We don't advertise at all. We don't work with a PR firm like you guys came to me and I'm very happy to be here, but it's not like somebody reached out to you like oh can you know it's just all organic and what I found is that there is a ton of goodwill when people sense that you're being real that you're not trying to scale that you're not thinking of your your software as a service move and how can I charge a subscription fee for this keyboard or for this thing or when you are just simply making a good thing and trying to keep doing just that, it really resonates.

46:09And we have people who really like ZS and who like our keyboards, and they do share with friends, friends, family, co-workers. And it also helps that the keyboard is so weird looking. You have it on your desk in an office. If you work in an office, people do routinely stop and say, what is that? And then our customers really talk. They really do open up. They're not like, ah, it's a keyboard. No, because it's kind of more than that for them, for customers who get it. Yeah. So, yeah. That's kind of how it works. I noticed on your homepage for ErgoDocs-Easy.com a couple scrolls down. Linus Tech Tips.

46:54Watch the full review. How did this come about? You said you don't work with influencers. Was this natural? Yeah, they emailed me. Is that right? Because they said, we finally are reviewing this thing. You know, like it's been a wait. They just emailed you and like, hey, give us one and we'll review it. No. So that's not how I work. I'm pretty selective. So they reached out and I know they're big. That's great. It doesn't mean that they're the right people to review the product. So then I always have a call and I kind of get to know them and set expectations. and like, this is it. Like to review a keyboard like that, if you think you're going to review my keyboard in two or three days, what?

47:31Like, no, that's not going to work. You need to have some time with it. You need to really spend time. You need to have a little bit of background. If you are a reviewer, you need to know what else is out there to have comparables. So I had a call with them, looked like a good fit. I sent them a keyboard. They took their time and eventually they published. I don't often read the comments, but on this same post, we'll link it up in the show notes, because it's linked from your homepage as well, but you might like this comment. It's kind of funny. We'll see how it goes. Jake Jake Boom five years ago says, I feel like if I invested in this keyboard, my life would inevitably spiral out of control.

48:07There's a twist, I promise. I'd fall into a vicious chase of ergonomic custom keyboard perfection. Six months later, I'd be under a bridge somewhere, frantically swapping key switches to scratch that itch. I'll never quite be able to reach. Wow. How does that resonate with you? I love it. So it's all a question of what game are you playing? For some people, it is a hobby. Yes, there are people who get an Ergodox CZ and then that's kind of their gateway, you know, and they play with it and like, oh, wow, that's great. And then they go and they build one because nowadays there's kits, there's really great kits.

48:41You can even get like pre-assembled kits. Everything is so much more developed now than when we started that, yeah, for sure, we do see it all the time. But some people just want to get their work done. they get a keyboard they're happy and they move on with life but as a hobby i'm biased obviously but keyboards are very cool in my opinion like it's a it's quite a fun hobby i almost feel like i need one of these jared i kind of i kind of feel like i need i feel like they're right up your alley adam to taste the rainbow i need to taste this rainbow bro i think you do here's my question in light of that eras is why a product line because you have now voyager you have moon lander.

49:24Yeah. No, that's, that is such a great question. I love that question because I had never imagined we would get here. When we started, we made the Ergodoxy Z, that was the Indiegogo. And then it was time to make a website to go with it. So I got ErgodoxyZ.com because that's what we were making. And that was the thing. And then for a good few years, that was it. And then we got this idea. We were like, you know what? What if the thumb cluster moved? Like, what if the whole keyboard was way, way thinner and you could actually move the thumb cluster? And we started playing around with that. And we realized that makes a significant difference.

50:10We basically, again, the Ergodox, the OG Ergodox is not my design. It's not by ZSA. say. It's by Docs, by Dominique. And it was optimized for hobbyists originally, right? Like it was actually, people would make it out of a sandwich of acrylic. Like they would take a few layers of acrylic and that was the case, like acrylic, then the circuit board, then some more acrylic and, you know. And when we made it into the Ergodox CZ, obviously we modified it. We redesigned everything for manufacturing, but it was still that Ergodox at heart. For example, when we came out with a backlit version, not all keys are backlit.

50:50The Thumb Cluster is not backlit, not because we got lazy, but because the original design did not allow for it. So we were kind of stuck with that. And after a few years, we felt, wow, you know, there's enough interest here. We have enough of a community. There's, yeah, and we have a good idea. Let's do it. And that was the Moonlander. And then the Moonlander was out for a few years. It's all kind of organic. Like we thought, hmm, what if there was, we looked at a laptop and we thought, what if there was a keyboard that really went with it? A keyboard that you could lean up, you could tent it against the sides of the laptop.

51:30We don't show an image like that on the site, but it's very possible with a Voyager. And it's something that people do. And you just kind of set both halves of the keyboard, each half kind of like, so that it's half on the laptop and mostly on the desk. We even have rubberized sides to support that so it doesn't slide on you. These are secrets. These are not things you necessarily see on the website. We don't highlight them. But we did a lot of work for those rubberized sides. The shell is a double shot shell. The shell of the Voyager is made from a mix of ABS and silicon that we inject very precisely for those legs.

52:09And we had this idea, and then these very thin key switches called chock switches started appearing, made by Kale. And for a long time, I was a little bit on the fence because it is a proprietary part. If you look at the Moon Lantern and the Ergodox, we use cherry-style switches, and the patent on those expired, which means they're going to be around for a long, long time because anybody can make them and many companies do. So when the time came to make the Voyager, we really wanted an ultra, ultra thin board, still with like a steel backplate, like something that's very rigid, but very thin. So we opted for those switches and we opted for an even more minimal layout, like fewer keys and yeah and that's where we are today love it makes a lot of sense in that context when i just land on the website i kind of get the paradox of choice of like these all look good how am i gonna pick the one that's not right for me you know that problem it's it's a huge issue and not just that there's like real costs to picking because it's not like there's nowhere to just try them out right so if you pick one yeah that's that's something i think a lot about and we try to be very clear about the differences and we have those printouts and everything.

53:33Most people tend to be happy with their choice, but we do have people who are like, oh, I want to ship this one back and get a different one instead. And they do that. They ship, they get a full refund and the shipping is on you, unfortunately, which is expensive because you do ship back to Taiwan. So that's expensive. Or some people resell locally to friends or people like on Facebook Marketplace or whatever, and then they get another one. But again, that's a minority. For the most part, people do tend to be happy with whatever they choose. Yeah, the Voyager looks rad as a laptop user. I love the idea of just budding it up on either side of my laptop.

54:13I love it. I gotta say, out of all keyboards, my personal favorite is definitely the Voyager. Again, I'm biased because the Voyager, my little secret there is the Voyager was the first keyboard where I personally designed the geometry. The location, the position of every key on the Voyager, the exact angle of the thumb cluster, that's me. That's me. And that happens to be very, very comfortable for me, for my particular hands. What do you know? Right. So I've been typing on the Voyager since it was just a circuit board. Before it had a shell, when we were just starting out. I got like the first functional circuit boards.

54:56They had little rubber feet on them and I just plugged in the circuit board, put a few like put keys on it. And that was it. Voyager ever since. Nice. Yeah. Now, do you use a traditional mouse? I use a trackball personally. I use a trackball called the Kensington Expert Mouse. It is a trackball. I don't know why they called it that way. It looks like something designed in the late 90s. I'm pretty sure it actually was. It's massive. It is wired. I love it. I've been using the same physical one for, I think, 11 years now. And where do you place that? In between the halves, closer to my left half.

55:35I'm a lefty, so I use a pointing device with my left hand. So it's right. I have the two halves shoulder width, so they're pretty far apart. And then right up against the left half is my trackball. Gotcha. From the inside. I'm moving my hand inwards to get to it. You move the inside of the keyboard. Not to the outside. Input devices, there's kind of the rub because I am a trackpad fanboy. Haven't used a mouse for years. Never particularly liked mice. I've used trackballs. I actually really liked the Nubbin, which is what I call it, on the old IBMs. Now Lenovo, I suppose. Where they put it right there inside the home row and it's that little red rubber thing.

56:18You like that, huh? I liked that because my fingers could stay at the home row, which is also why I like the trackpad. It's so proximally close to the space bar. I mean, you're just right there. I always felt like the mouse was like a big motion out to the side. Of course, you could put it right next to your keyboard. But that's why the Voyager is attracted because I still would want to use my trackpad. I wouldn't want to adopt a keyboard. Or excuse me, I wouldn't want to adopt a mouse. That's right. If you do, I use my laptop in clamshell mode with an external monitor. so for me the keyboard is just on the disk but if you actually really do use the laptop on your disk then you kind of you know, prop the Voyager's halves on the laptop.

56:58and then yeah your trackpad is right there by your thumb. Adam you use like a Wacom tablet don't you? Yeah my setup is uh is interesting so I have trackpad like normal way over here on the left. Wireless. Wireless. Keyboard also wireless right here in the center and then a Wacom what is this an Intuos Pro. Oh wow do you draw do you do create digital art? No I just prefer it over a mouse i just like to write my i've never have any wrist pain anymore so i just keep this thing in my hand like i'm writing and i mouse with my pen and it's just natural the way it fits into my hand i don't have to like you know people get into this mode i'm making a claw the claw right the claw is what really gets people and so i can always like you said keep motion earlier in the show you said keep moving around this method allows me to move around my trackpad is independent my keyboard is independent and the intuos pro is like my mouse and it's independent you know so i can move around a lot that is very cool that's a really cool use of of a of a wake up actually yeah just use it as a mouse yeah i'd never heard anybody do that until adam yeah i can't go back i like to so my trackpad's on the left so my left hand is what i scroll and move and things like that with and obviously i'm clicking and moving windows and stuff like that with my right hand with the Wacom and then the keyboard is in the middle.

58:18So when I'm dedicated to typing or doing whatever, it's just right there in the middle. So you're cutting down on a bunch of repetitive movement right there because you're basically splitting your mouse hand. Stuff that other people do with the same hand and in the same posture, you're using two hands for and in different positions. That's so interesting. And it's cool how it just works in my brain too. I just feel like I can scroll and tap. It's just so fast. It's really just a fast. Because you'd be scrolling with one hand and then like clicking with the other hand. Really? Yeah. No, but do you do that?

58:51Well, there's no really scenarios where you do that at the same time, are there? You don't really need to scroll and click. No, but like consecutively right after one another, perhaps. But yeah, not simultaneously, I would think. So as an example, I'm just scrolling the, you know, this website called ZSA. I'll say it your way. ZSA.io slash Voyager. Right. I'm scrolling it and like mousing around so I can touch things and click things and buttons. And so my left hand is scrolling up and down the page to scan and zoom and look and whatnot. And I can easily click on, you know, try Oryx or whatever else you've got going on.

59:23Because my hand on the right side is this mouse and it's just able to move along while scrolling with my left hand. That's super interesting because what you're describing is a split mouse. It is. We're talking about split keyboards, but what you got there is a split mouse, which isn't really something I considered. That is so interesting. And honestly, Wacom has no competition as a mouse. So I use this as a mouse and I have been for 15 years. I mean, just so long. It's I've just never I think I've had to buy. And to your credit, maybe on the sustainability side, I've had to buy several over the years.

1:00:01And I think it's mainly been because they eventually wear out. The pen wears out. I can't get replacement parts for it. Some of them switch out, but like I might lose it. I don't know. Just things happen. And I think I may have bought three potentially over my whole entire usability career of doing it like this. Yeah. I think it's a lot because it's about 300 bucks each, roughly 200 bucks. So that's, you know, quite an investment, but like, it's nice. I would encourage you to consider my way and maybe make a Wacom killer because you can make it better. That's more sustainable. To their credit, they do a great job with the surfaces being able to be replaced.

1:00:41So over time, the surface, because I'm always rubbing my hand, my full hand on the surface. Right, you're probably getting grease on it. Yeah, like my hand gets greasy, you see a pattern there, all this stuff. You can peel that off and replace it, and I've done that several times too. I did not know that. I've graduated from smaller ones to bigger ones, which I think was mainly why I upgraded over the years, or I got a new one, was like, I want more space in my area. now there are some I guess compatibility challenges which you will always have in a third party device that is not first party native keyboard which is one of my other concerns is like well how compatible can it be with every application and you can only do so much customization but the point is that I think there's room in there because this does way more than I need I don't use any of the extra keys I just don't have a need for it maybe I can find a use for it but I just haven't So I basically just disable everything that is the tablet and I'll only use it for an input device.

1:01:44And that's it. That's super interesting. How did you get the idea? Did you like, what got you started on Wacom? I think a friend of mine a long time ago, his name is Donald Kilgore. DK is what I call him because it's his initials, DK. He did it and he's a left-hander. And he and I, and I have in the past been an illustrator and done more in creative programs. But so initially I got it for those reasons because I wanted to have a true input device for it. But then it became my way. And I do that stuff less now, but the way stayed with me. So I didn't abandon the ship because I did less illustration or less in Photoshop or whatever.

1:02:24It was very helpful in those applications. But now it's just the way for me. And so I was influenced by somebody else. And I think they did it similar where they had the trackpad like that, like this configuration. I tried it out too and just never stopped. That's awesome. That's really interesting. I am thinking though, how the Voyager can fit right here in the middle for this keyboard. So it's a funny setup, actually. Your setup is the opposite of most people because most people, they put the keyboard and then there's lots of room in the middle for a cat. Okay. I have no cat. We actually have a whole page on the site dedicated to photos of cats in the middle.

1:03:03Like that's the whole voice. That's hilarious, man. Cats and keyboards. See, it's a feline approved. But in your case, it's like you're going to have the keyboard in the middle and your split mouse off to the side. That's really interesting. Have you ever considered accounting for the mouse somehow? Like split keyboard integrated mouse device? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Actually, just this month, we published an amazing tutorial by Robin, one of our support people, who created a trackpad for the Voyager. It's an amazing, right now it's a DIY thing. It's like a mod. We're super DIY friendly. People like 3D print all sorts of attachments and things like that.

1:03:46And we tend to share those out and highlight them or whatever. They color their keys and stuff like that. But this particular mod adds a circular trackpad right next to the Voyager, and it looks like it was made for it. Robin created a beautiful thing there. And once I saw it, I was like, oh, maybe we can make something like that. So, you know, the DIY version is out right now. People can go in and make it, actually, and some people already are. But we are definitely looking at offering something more polished and built in. Yeah.

1:04:32What's up, friends? I'm here with Cal Carberry, co-founder and CTO at Coder.com. So Coder.com is a cloud development environment, a CDE, and you run on all the clouds, AWS, Azure, GCP, you run on-prem, and you're no stranger to competition, right? The competition out there is well known, but what shocks you, what surprises you about the state of cloud development environments and how developers are leveraging them? You know, it actually shocked me. The majority of our largest provisioned customers do not use containers with their development environments. They actually use VMs on like GCP, AWS, or some kind of mixture of them.

1:05:12One of the largest auto manufacturers, they have like a little bit over a thousand devs that use Coder every day And they use a mixture of Azure, AWS, and GCP. So I've used Docker. I've used VMs. But take me into the technical details. What is it that's different between a VM and running something in Docker? Kind of like all existing solutions, like kind of our competitors in the market, all really have a container-based approach where you build like a Docker container and developers work inside of that. And it faces a couple of limitations. Because, you know, Adam, like if, you know, on your machine right now, 100 % you're not working inside of a Docker container doing this discussion, right?

1:05:49It's just very different. So there's a lot of software expectations that actually don't really work inside of a container. An example is a customer of ours is Square, and they do stuff with a payment terminal. And so they need essentially like hardware accelerated Android. That is just really finicky to get working in a container. You totally can pass DevKVM into a container and get hardware accelerated virtualization, but it's a little trickier and a little more janky. And so they'd rather just be like, no, the simple thing is give everyone a VM. There's no point to change the way that we work in entirety to do some weird virtualization jank.

1:06:23It just makes more sense to give them a VM that we know works. Well, it might be time to consider a cloud development environment. And open source is awesome. And Coder is fully open source. You can go to Coder.com, get a demo or try it right now, or even start a 30-day trial of Coder Enterprise. Once again, Coder.com. That's C-O-D-E-R.com. Coder.com. And I'm also here with Todd Kaufman, CEO of Test Double. TestDouble.com. You may know Test Double from our good friend, Justin Serrales. So Todd, on your homepage, I see an awesome quote from Eileen Yucato. She says, quote, hot take. Just have Test Double build all your stuff.

1:07:07End quote. We did not pay Eileen for that quote, to be clear, but we do very much appreciate her sharing it. Yeah, we had the great fortune to work with Eileen and Aaron Patterson on the upgrade of GitHub's Ruby Rails framework. And that's a relatively complex problem. It's a very large system. There's a lot of engineers actively working on it at the same time that we were performing that upgrade. So being able to collaborate with them, achieve the outcome of getting them upgraded to the latest and greatest Ruby on Rails that has all of the security patches and everything that you would expect of the more modern versions of the framework, while still not holding their business back from delivering features, we felt was a pretty significant accomplishment.

1:07:50And it's great to, you know, work with someone like Eileen and Aaron, because we obviously learned a lot. We were able to collaborate effectively with them. But to hear that they were delighted by the outcome as well is very humbling for sure. Take me one layer deeper on this engagement. How many folks did you apply to this engagement? What was the objective? What did you do, etc.? Yeah, I think we had between two and four people at any phase of the engagement. So we tend to run with relatively small teams. We do believe smaller teams tend to be more efficient and more productive. So wherever possible, we try to get by with as few people as we can.

1:08:28With this project, we were working directly with members from GitHub as well. So there were full-time staff on GitHub who were collaborating with us day in, day out on the project. This was a fairly clear set of expectations. We wanted to get to Rails, I believe 5.2 at the time, and Ruby like 2.5. Don't hold me to those numbers, but we had clear expectations at the outset. So from there, it was just a matter of figuring out the process that we were going to pursue to get these upgrades done without having a sizable impact on their team. A lot of the consultants on the project had some experience doing Rails upgrades, maybe not at that scale at that point.

1:09:08But it was really exciting because we were able to kind of develop a process that we think is very consistent in allowing Rails upgrades to be done without providing a lot of risk to the client. So there's not a fear that, hey, we've missed something or, you know, this thing's going to fall over under scale. We do it very incrementally so that the team can, like I said, keep working on feature delivery without being impacted. But also so that we are very certain that we've covered all the bases and really got the system to a state where it's functionally equivalent to the last version, just on a newer version of Rails and Ruby.

1:09:46Very cool, Todd. I love it. Find out more about Test Double's software investment problem solvers at testdouble.com. That's testdouble.com, T-E-S-T-D-O-U-B-L-E.com.

1:10:16what does it take to go from this diy proof of concept to adoption and production like what would it take to make that become real oh a whole bunch of things so first of all when you have the mechanical design. Even if you have something you can 3D print, you need to completely redo it because designing for 3D printing and designing for injection molding is two totally different things. So you make the shell. And then of course, once you have a shell, you pay for the tooling. That's very expensive. That's like depending on the size of the mold, but it can get, you know, in the tens of thousands of dollars for a mold, things like that.

1:10:57Then you got the plastic done and that's a bunch of iterations because you also iterate on things like the surface texture. How does it feel? And injection mold tooling is interesting because some things are irreversible. It's literally a physical mold. So if you decide to make a change, you can't put it back later. Like some changes, when you decide, it's like if it doesn't work, you need to scrap the mold and literally start over again. So it's a fairly intense process and that gets you the plastic at the end. That is if you just go ABS. For the Voyager shell, we had to do it even more complicated because like I said, that shell is made of two materials and that's a whole other thing.

1:11:42Then you got the electronics. So for the electronics, when you make them at scale, when you're like a real manufacturer and not a hobbyist at home, you need to get the electronics certified. CE and FCC certification, which means that it's up to code. It can be legally imported. It's not going to burn your house or your computer. It's a real thing. And that certification is pretty grueling. Like they go and they literally zap your product. Like they shock it with an electrostatic. Like they have a little thing, like a mini cattle prod thing that they stick in there. Like they find whatever gaps you have in your case.

1:12:17Like they stick it in there and they zap your product and see what happens. And make sure that, you know, if it actually reboots, for example, and continues work and things like that. So then you have certification. And then for us, of course, a huge part is going to be the software around it. It needs to be easy to configure. It needs to, the keyboard would have to work well without it. And it would have to be easy to add it on and customize it in ways that make sense. And then of course, there is explaining what the heck did you do? Which is its own thing, right? There needs to be just a sane looking web page that clearly and truthfully and without hype explain what the thing is, which is a lot.

1:13:03It's one of the things I actually do last. I think some companies start there. I do it at the end because I like holding the thing when I write the copy. The copy on the website is mine. I wrote the copy across both sites. so by holding a very late stage prototype let's say i can write without feeling that it's marketing bs i can write and say no this is really the thing that's cool yeah i would say there's a path i would personally take not this diy method because i'm just thinking through what it would be like to use a voyager in this configuration since i walked y 'all through how i do it i think I think I would just probably just take this existing Apple track pack because I already own it.

1:13:49Like you said before, take what you already own. And I would pop it right in that corner or somewhere on the inside of the left keyboard so that I can still be spread out. And I might change my configuration, but my hand that does the work is still doing the work. And so the left side of my keyboard can go on the outside, the left outside of my trackpad. The trackpad would be on the inside right of the left side of the keyboard. and then my Wacom can be to the right of the right side of the keyboard that's split on the other side. And kind of like split it like that to see if I like it because I think that could actually work out.

1:14:22You know, that's assuming I like this split keyboard. And then if you have access to a 3D printer, you could possibly print out a really simple wedge that just kind of lifts your trackpad a little bit and maybe angles it inwards just a bit. Yeah. And like, or rather, angles it towards the keyboard, I should say, which is really outward, but it's toward your left hand. And it kind of, it will be the right height and will be leaning towards you ever so slightly. Sounds, yeah, I think there's something there. Yeah, because those bottom two keys on the left side, I imagine would probably get in the way if the trackpad's too close.

1:14:58You could have it like poke out the top a little bit. You could like lift it, you know, so that the top of the trackpad is higher than the top of the keyboard. Can we talk about voiding warranties? Sure. We have many tutorials for fun ways to void your warranty. We are all about that. So one thing people should know, opening up a product, if you spoke to iFix, I'm sure they mentioned that as well, but some people still don't know that. Opening up a product does not void your warranty. The warranty is still, you can flip a product over, open it up, look inside. Warranty is still valid. Where the warranty becomes void is any user-caused damage.

1:15:41Let's say you opened it up and then you spilled Coke in there. That's hard for me to cover. But basically, the warranty, it's a two-year warranty at base. You can extend it to four years. And you can extend it at the time of order. I don't do the thing like Apple do where you can extend it after you buy because that feels like kind of a desperate upsell to me. Like, I don't love it. I think it's more respectful of people to just say, well, you looked at the accessory store. That was your decision. I respect your decision. That's it. I'm not going to haunt you with, are you sure you don't want to pay a little more for two more years?

1:16:20But if at the time of purchase you make that decision, you get four years. And that's a very no BS warranty in the sense that if there's any problem, our support team is amazing. We are 11 people in the company, not including the manufacturing side. Four of us are full-time support. I would say four and a half because half my time is in the support inbox. But it's four of us are full-time support, extremely good at what they do. That is the core of our marketing, really. We like that is how, because that the whole, I think it's shocking to people when they buy a product and then they need help and then you actually help them.

1:17:04People are so surprised when that happens. It's quite funny. Like some people write already being very defensive. They write like with a sort of like attitude of, I know you're not going to help me and I'm pissed, but I'm going to just lay out my case right here. And then I go, okay, yeah. And then we help them. And they're like, what just happened? Somebody listened and it wasn't like some AI chatbot thing. So the warranty is comprehensive. It's handled by human beings who do not make you go through a bunch of forms. And if you want to mod the keyboard, we are all for that. We show you all sorts of ideas while making it very clear that when you're modding it, you are doing away with a warranty.

1:17:51And some people actually wait for the warranty to expire before they do that. But bottom line is, I think if you own something, you should own it. It should be yours. You should be able to void the warranty on the thing productively. Like I can certainly void the warranty on my iPhone, but I can't do anything productive with that. I'll just have a broken iPhone. So you know what I mean? I asked that question because I found on your very well-designed, I would say, and then and also well-written blog, spray painting your ZSA keyboard, not a render. I saw this. I was like, this is cool. That's an article on how to spray paint your keyboard.

1:18:30And the very first thing it says in important disclaimers is this will void your warranty. Yeah. You know? Absolutely. But still yet, just like iFixit, you kind of have similar, you're kind of cut from similar cloths as iFixit. And the fact that they care about repairability, they care about, you know, owning, they care about rights to access and fix or mod or change. I do wonder, now I don't know how your business could work with this, but if you can have a modified warranty, like if you followed a guide to do this thing, could you have a modified where like the core components of like the keyword functionality of like the key pressing is still warrantied when all you did was take it apart, spray paint the thing, and it's a cosmetic thing.

1:19:14I just wonder, that might be too hard to enforce though. Well, what we do there, so it's a really interesting question because it's very important to be honest with people, set the right expectations and not disappoint. And the word warranty has a lot of connotations to it. It means we'll pick up the tab. It's ours to take care of. And once you mod it, that is a statement of ownership. You own the thing. So what we'll do there is not so much warranty because you took the responsibility. Fun fact, by the way, in Hebrew, my first language, warranty and responsibility is the same word. Is that right?

1:19:52It's the same word. Yeah. Warranty and responsibility, it's one word in Hebrew. What's the Hebrew word? Can you say it? Akhayyut. Okay. So you took responsibility for your possession, for your thing. So you are warranting your own work. where, but warranty, not having warranty does not mean not having support. The warranty can be void, but will still support you, which means if you need parts, we'll sell you parts. You don't need to buy a whole new keyboard. It's not a gotcha type of thing. Oh, you messed it up. Now you need a new keyboard. No, no, no. If you messed up just the circuit board, I will, you know, we can sell you just that circuit board.

1:20:27We sell individual parts and pieces for you to like fix whatever happened. And like, we'll spend time with you to help you like troubleshoot, figure out what went wrong and all that. Have you written that up? Because I would then go back to every guide you've written. And from point number one, not just tell them you void the warranty, but even if you do void your warranty, link to this thing where you still have support. Because that's unclear. That's so interesting. Yeah, I guess I should. I guess I should. It's like, I'm so careful of upselling, like of trying to, because I don't want to make it seem like, yeah, we'll sell you parts.

1:21:06Like we make a bunch of money on these parts. We don't actually. But you know, it's like, you can always buy parts. Like I'm afraid of that tone. I hear that, but I think if you want to go down the iFixit, Calween's direction, they unabashedly sell products. Yeah. No, you're right. We should probably link to We Sell Parts. We have a whole post, by the way, called Right to Repair. Yeah. Directly inspired by iFixit, where we list what parts we offer, and we even list prices for the parts right there, so you're not surprised when you email to ask for the parts. It's all right there on the blog. To the note of expectation and clarity, I think that sets more expectation and clarity than not seeming like you're upselling.

1:21:51I don't think you're trying to. You're just trying to give, hey, have fun, DIYers. Have fun, modders and hackers. Do it. Yeah. And if you do, we're still here for you. We won't fix it on our dime, but if it needs fixed, we're here to help you. And we have not a whole new keyboard to sell you, but just the one part that you may have accidentally spray painted on when you're modding this thing and you still got that support. I feel like that's a bit more of a net than feeling like you're trying to upsell people. I'm taking that on board. I love it. Maybe by the time you listen to this episode, if you go to that spray paint blog post, the link is there.

1:22:27Put it there. Yeah. Especially if you write it up. If it's already there, I think if you overly explain even your generosity and your desire to be sustainable. I think if that is your brand, then it won't feel like what you're trying not to feel like. It will feel like more support than it will feel like upsell. I love it. But I like this too. I was like, that's cool. And I was surprised by the guide to spray paint it. And I was even more surprised by the very first line, which was this will void your warranty. I was like, that's, it's cool that you just, that you disclose that because I might, you know, venture into uncharted territories or voyage into uncharted territories and, and void my warranty unbeknownst to me, but you've told me and you've given me a path to, to fix my stuff if I break it.

1:23:16And you're right. If I choose to mod my thing, I'm taking ownership. It's a choice to own. So areas, you have a lot of business practices that I would say are laudable. Like we, of our ethos, we like vehemently agree with a lot of the things you're saying. and yet they're counterculture. Things like we don't advertise, I mean, that's counterculture. It's not even necessarily one that I agree with, but a lot of your right to repair, ownership, longevity, things that matter to you, your customer service emphasis is refreshing, of course. I'm curious where a lot of this stuff comes from in terms of where do you learn these things, pick them up, then you learn them as you go, and then I want to eventually somehow weave our way into, you also made a deck of cards like WTF, you know?

1:24:08Yes, that's true. We made a deck of cards. Which is again, kind of like out there in left field a little bit, but where's your decision-making process with a lot of these things or where'd you learn to be like this? It's a good question. So I like to read. I started with Seth Godin, talks a lot about permission marketing and all that then um there's this uh denim this gene maker in the uk called hute that's h-i-u-t okay that's the company the guy's name is david hyatt i'm probably mispronouncing his last name and um he's been doing some really interesting things around marketing and he wrote a book called do open which is a book about email marketing.

1:24:58And before that, I spent years working on an email marketing product. I used to be a developer for Mad Mimi and then GoDaddy. And that kind of exposed me to the power of email marketing, which is really all the marketing we do, that one email a month. And that email carries the company in terms of outreach, let's say. Obviously, there's other forums like the support I mentioned, but in terms of like us telling people about what we do, it's that email. As an individual, I can be somewhat picky. I have opinions. So a lot of our marketing practices and non-practices are me expressing my emotions productively, shall we say.

1:25:43Like if something makes me mad or I disagree with, like I don't love being inundated with ads. I don't love watching videos online, trying to decide if I want to buy something and not knowing if the person talking was paid to say what they're saying, because not everybody discloses. So as a company, like we will never, ever, ever pay for coverage because as an individual like that, that, that decision is not informed by business considerations. It's informed by my lived experience as an individual where I want to be able to watch something online and like trust this person and know, okay, yeah, they weren't getting paid.

1:26:24Maybe they got the keyboard or maybe they got whatever it is they're reviewing and they're disclosing that, but at least, you know, they didn't get paid. So a lot of those decisions come from feelings. I think emotions are a valid decision-making tool, not necessarily in the moment. You shouldn't make a decision in anger. But if I'm feeling a certain way, I can sit with it for a while and think about it and then come up with something productive to do or not do there. I don't know if that's a good answer. Well, that's a good answer. You pointed to a few resources. You told us about your personal experience and how a lot of it's taste.

1:27:06It's your taste expressed into a business. That's, yeah, it's a very idiosyncratic type of business. Sure. Yeah, if you look in the newsletter, we send out every month, I pick five things I liked from across the web. Those are not articles, they're usually tools, interesting resources, and I share those. And then we went and made a subscriber-only archive. And as a subscriber, it's free, but for people who are subscribed to the newsletter. and you click in and you go through years and years of these. And for me, as the guy who found the links, it's so weird and interesting because it's like this personal archive of stuff I liked, but it's all shit.

1:27:47It's all out there. And it's this work that I've been building for years. Well, here's how we get to the card deck because this newsletter, which is so important to you as a business to have that connection with your customers, potential customers, and the people who come across you on the internet, this monthly newsletter has a carrot on a stick. And the carrot is, if you sign up, it's a free newsletter, 10 % off ZSA cards. That's right. Which is your card deck. Now that's a nice little carrot, I think. It's not like giving away too much, but it's giving away something. And this card project is unique and different.

1:28:28Can you tell us about it? For sure. So I had this idea, why don't we make some merch? It'll be fun to have merch, you know, to have some things that I say that people can maybe wear or whatever. And I thought, oh, T-shirts. And then I went to sleep and I woke up super bored at the idea of making T-shirts. Like, really? T-shirts? And at the time, like, I'm quite into board games and, you know, tabletop and things like that. Not RPG so much, but certain board games. And I was thinking a lot about your standard deck of cards, which is such an incredibly versatile tool. I'm talking the deck of cards you can get at any store, not mine, just your regular 52-card deck.

1:29:13Sure. You have one of those in your pocket or in your glove compartment. That's a gaming system. That is a portable gaming system, just a regular deck of cards. You can do so much with it, like one-person, two-person games. You can have four people and there's like entire books and there's websites. By the way, an awesome website, Pagat, P-A-G-A-T dot com. That's a website dedicated to card games. All you need is a deck of cards. And I saw that and I was like, wow, man, like I wonder if there is a way to make a deck of cards that is even more versatile, like that you can do even more with and use in even more ways.

1:29:54And what do you know? I am not the first who had that idea. And I embarked on a little research expedition. And I found all sorts of, these are called multi-decks. I found all sorts of these so-called multi-decks. And one of them was particularly great. It is, it's around. It's called the Everdeck. And it's by this very talented designer called Will Su, Willem Su. and he did something super creative there with very elegantly adding on cards and fleshing out the idea of a card deck, but making it super powered. So I emailed him and he said, Hey, well, you know, maybe, maybe we can do something like, maybe you can advise us on our own card deck that would borrow some of your data structures because the card deck is really a data structure.

1:30:46If you about it. So that would let us borrow, or it's really multiple data structures bound up together. So if he could help us kind of design that, the data architecture, and he helped us, he was very gracious, very generous, helped us come up with what would be the numbers on the cards or things like that. And then I took oblique strategies. Are you familiar with that? No. Okay, so that's Brian Eno, the musician. And he, way back in the 70s, I think, came up with a deck of cards that just had slogans on them, had phrases that would help you break through creative ruts. And that was really inspiring to me.

1:31:31And so I wanted to include not those direct ones, of course, but in similar vein. And slowly over the course. And then, of course, we wanted some of the cards to have graphics on them. All the cards have graphics, but we wanted some in full color. So then we made that into a complete art ensemble project where we paid eight different artists, each to make a part of the deck in their own style. And then we get to feature those artists and share who they are and all that. And then, of course, came the manufacturing part, which was also its own adventure because this product is made in China. It's actually our first product that's made in China.

1:32:13And that was a whole exploration around, okay, so how do I guarantee manufacturing conditions in China? And it turns out the toy industry has its own certification to make sure that the product is made ethically. And how do I make sure the paper is sustainable? And that was a whole adventure there. And ta-da, a deck of cards. It's 120 cards. They come in two boxes. Like you have an overall big box, which then contains two smaller packs that are like pocket-sized. and you can play any card game with it, like any existing card game with it, but you can also play a bunch of modern, different card games with it.

1:32:53We are actually in the process of writing an entire book about ZSA cards right now, featuring both how you can use it for games, but also how you can use it as part of your creative process or in a team-building context to kind of, as an icebreaker to open up communication there to, or in two people as conversation cards. So if you are a game designer or, you know, one who might be interested, email me and we'll talk because we're currently working on this book and collecting games. That's so wild. That's deeper than I ever imagined. Yeah, it was, it was an adventure. It was like a good, a deep one.

1:33:33Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I love the thought process. I love all the, it's not just attention to detail it's like i would just say probably thoughtfulness you know i love card games we recently took up a game called taco cat goat cheese pizza oh yeah oh yeah and it's so cool my kids love it i mean like we could just play that for hours and it's so fun that is a fun and obviously my youngest is usually last to slam his hand down and so i take the cards for on his behalf as any dad should you know love it it's really cool though i can explain the game but it's not part of the show i'll do it in post show if necessary that's awesome i would recommend the game though that's cool to to use this as a team building exercise and just all the thoughtfulness into in a way to extend a card game really yeah and it's actually interesting that we got there from marketing because this is my marketing tool like every card has the zsa logo on it and uh when i showed the deck to someone for the first time he kind of took the card and flipped it over and was like, what's Zeta say?

1:34:35I was like, score, it works, right? I mean, that's exactly, I found it fun and interesting to create a marketing product that actually takes people away from the screen and into contact with other humans in the same room and doing something socially. I thought that was very fun to try and contribute to. You know, there's a good idea well executed when you hear about it and you're like sitting over here thinking, why didn't we do this, adam this is so cool i wish it had been us eras that's how good this is i love it yeah thank you very much cards for the win yes that's awesome thank you well what haven't we plumbed here what haven't we asked you that you expected or is interesting anything else we've left on the table yeah no i think uh i think this was a lot of fun honestly i i always feel like i spoke too much.

1:35:27I hope I didn't say anything too silly. But yeah, no, I think it was quite wide-ranging, really. I suppose we should now give a shout-out to our listener who requested this episode, Sam Edwards, who pointed us towards Eres and these keyboards. And honestly, we probably wouldn't have found you otherwise, so thank you, Sam. We've been doing this for a long time. Hadn't found you yet, so happy that we met now. and got to have this conversation. You probably have some future customers here as Adam and I have been, you know, selecting our favorite keyboard throughout this conversation. And honestly, that deck of cards looks pretty rad too.

1:36:08So your unassuming sales pitch has worked on me. That's exciting. Thank you. So very cool. To our other listeners, of course, you also can request episodes. We love to serve our audience and there's no better way to know that we're making at least one listener happy by actually doing episodes requested by you, all the listeners. So if you haven't yet, go to changelog.com slash request, fill out the form, let us know what you want to hear about on an upcoming interview. That's all for me. Adam, anything else? I'm going to zsa.fun, R-N, just to see the cards. So there you go. There you go. Very cool.

1:36:52Awesome. Thank you. thank you it's an awesome conversation thank you for all of your thoughtfulness as i said before but just really just like the way that you carry yourself in your business i mean you're countercultural in so many ways but you shouldn't be yeah and i think that's cool thank you very much well who knew that making open source ergonomic keyboards could be so much fun From the Voyager to the Moonlander to Half Moon to the OG Ergodox EZ, ZSA, as Ares says, is doing some really awesome stuff. And I'm sure there's a keyboard for everyone out there at ZSA.io. Now, should you go buy one?

1:37:32I don't know. That's up to you. Am I going to go buy one? I don't know. Not yet. I am tempted, but I am a fan and I might. I'll let you know what I do. from being open source to sustainability to longevity to holding the prototype, the physical thing in his hand before he writes a single line of copy for the webpage. And all the business practices, to me, is so admirable. Check them out, zsa.io. If you pick one up, let us know. We want to hear from you. And the easy way to do that is to go to changelog.com slash community. No imposter is here. Everyone is welcome. And that means you. Now we do have a bonus for our Plus Plus subscribers.

1:38:18changelog.com slash Plus Plus. It's better. It is better. Because when you get closer to that cool changelog medal, when you directly support us, when you get an ad-free feed, when you get a sticker pack sent to your home address at no cost, it's better. You get bonus content. It's better. And today it is better because we have a Plus Plus bonus for you. Once again, changelog.com slash plus plus. Okay, a big thank you to our sponsors today, Sentry. Check them out, sentry.io. Use our code, changelog, and get three-ish, almost four months of the team plan for free. Our friends over at Paragon, useparagon.com.

1:39:03B2B SaaS integrations for everyone. And our friends over at coder.com. I love coder.com. I haven't talked about this much besides in our ad spots a couple times on a podcast, but Coder.com is so cool. Check them out, Coder.com. And to our friends over at Test Double, helping teams like GitHub move from Ruby and Rails to new Ruby and Rails to be updated with all the security patches and releases. Awesome team, Test Double.com. And last but not least, to our friends and partners over at Fly.io. that is the home of changelaw.com it's a public cloud built for developers who ship and that's where we are we ship check them out fly.io and to the beat freak in residence break master cylinder for those awesome beats thank you BMC thank you okay that's it this show's done we'll see you on Friday

1:40:15Thank you.