Finale & Friends (Friends)

17:55Jerod Santo:I understand what I'm trying to get to. Here's where I'm at. My intent is X, which is what he could have done here. What do you think about an intent-driven versus, I guess, ported? Yeah, like this way, where it was translated from C++. Why not inspired by versus translated?

18:15Adam Stacoviak:That's a really good question. I think that he could answer it better than I could. But what I would surmise is kind of like when we talk about what's going to change here around the change log, and the answer is as little as possible. I won't be here, but everything else is going to pretty much try to stay the same because when you have big change, you don't want to have big radical change necessarily. And I think in this case, when you have a big change being introduced into a code base, which is like, here comes a new language, and you're proving that out, and you're taking steps in that direction, It's like, let's do as little as we can, but still make progress.

18:50Adam Stacoviak:And so as little change as possible, you're way more likely to get it replaced when you can give the tools the existing code and the tests and say, let's not rethink the architecture and everything. let's just you know here's our scaffold let's pull out this part and let's put in that part and make sure the building still stands and let's call that a win and that will help us decide if this is a direction that we want to go and yeah we're going to have some C++ looking Rust code at the end of the day but we can slowly swap that out as we do rethink and rewrite you know subsections just like you're going to make little tweaks here and there you know to changelog news as you go out making it And so I think that's probably the reason.

19:38Adam Stacoviak:Probably he just got done way faster that way too. Because give Claude and Codex as much as they can have, and they're going to crank way faster than having to. I mean, I guess that's an assumption. Maybe they won't. What do you think? Would they do better with existing code than with none?

19:57Jerod Santo:You know, I don't know. I think I would, honestly, because the cost is near zero or as close to zero as it's ever been to give it a try. I would say I would try, honestly, because a fresh new code base, and honestly, it might be something where, and I'm not sure how much experience with Rust Andreas has, but I think as he becomes more confident, the one thing that Rust does for you is it gives you confidence in what you're delivering because of the way it compiles, because of the way that you get past that compile time, it gives you a lot more confidence in the code you've actually written because you squash so many possible bugs in the future with that.

20:37Jerod Santo:I think a future endeavor of his might be to literally rewrite it from scratch with Rust. But I think that would only come if they give it a true, this is the only language we're going to use, this is the way forward, etc. But that's not what they're doing. I think that I would, because the cost is near zero, I would try it. It's a long story short there.

21:15Jerod Santo:Well, friends, I'm here with my good friend, Chris Kelly, over at Augment Code. Chris, I'm a fan. I use Augie on the daily. It's one of my daily drivers. Now, I use Cloud Code. I use Augment Augie. And I also use AMP code and others, but Augie, I keep going back to it. And here's where I'm at. I feel like not enough of our audience knows about Augment code, not enough about Augie, the CLI. It's amazing. I love it. What can you share? Yeah, we often say Augment is the best coding assistant you've never heard of. And that's both frustrating as someone that works there and is very proud of the work we've done, but also inspiring.

21:52Jerod Santo:We want to go and sort of punch above our weight because we aren't anthropic and we aren't open AI. And so the quality of the product itself, you know, with our context engine, once you do touch it, people are like just blown away by that. And so like that keeps me going every day. So not to bear the lead here, but this is a paid spot. You are sponsoring this show to get this awareness. Now, at the same time, we're selective and I love to use your tool, but there is in the world. So a lot of developers look at the space and they say, OK, well, how long can this work? How long is this sustainable?

22:25Jerod Santo:in the case of Cursor or Windsurf, or you pick the name and you think discounted tokens, help me shape a lens for our audience. I think it's a lot of awareness, right? Like Cursor got a lot of publicity early on for like fast revenue growth, which well deserved. I think, you know, frankly, some of the media gets the story wrong in that like, if I gave you$1.50 for every dollar you sent me, I'd be the fastest growing startup in the valley. And so when you're selling discounted tokens, yes, of course you're going to grow very fast, but all that money plus more goes to the model providers. So I think the real story is the story of Anthropic and being an API provider.

23:08Jerod Santo:I think the market has just moved so fast and there's so many pieces of competition out there that it's just hard to get noticed. So friends, I love Augment Code and I love using Augie and I highly recommend you use it. I love using Augie. I can hand Augie a well-defined specification, a well-defined PEP, as I call them in my world, an agent flow, and it executes flawlessly. So the cool thing about Augie that I love most really is that context engine. And I can hand it a task and it can just churn away on my well-defined plan and just never bother me and accomplish the mission. It is so cool leveraging the latest models, the context engine, and all the fun things behind the scenes in that awesome CLI.

23:53Jerod Santo:So yes, go try it out. Augmentcode.com. Right in the top there is a CLI icon, a terminal icon. Click that, install it, and change your world. It's going to be awesome. Augmentcode.com.

24:11Jerod Santo:If you're thinking about contributing or saying, you know what? I want to try this. I want to port some of this code. Not invited. Okay? Don't get sad. Not invited. Not invited. It says we want to be delivered about which parts are getting ported in which order. So porting is managed by the core team. Please coordinate, essentially. Don't do it and waste your time if it's not something that can't merge. Right. Paraphrasing that last sentence there. But, you know, I think if you're interested in this port or if you're at least tantalized by the effects of Rust and you're seeing it daily in your news feed.

24:48Jerod Santo:And in this case, I saw it three times. We haven't covered all three yet. then I think go check out the code base and watch them in action and see what's happening. You'll see what does it take to go from C++ to Rust and what's happening behind the scenes. And I'm sure on their YouTube, they'll publish more content, but I, I'd like to see more of this because Rust is the language in that space of the future. Just as you heard here first,

25:14Adam Stacoviak:he's calling us this.

25:15Jerod Santo:Wow. I'm just following the lead,

25:17Adam Stacoviak:you know, just in the stream. Yeah, man. just seeing what happens and just saying it out loud. No, I don't disagree with you. It's overwhelming its adoption and its benefits. And I think he did. I mean, I think C++ will be in this code base for years, if not in perpetuity. I don't think they're going to ever completely crush it. And I think he said that even on the show. It's like, yes, this is more like a direction. There'll be parts that we exchange or other parts that might even make more sense to just leave alone. um my answer back to your why not just try you know since the cost is zero the only answer i have to that is like if it ain't broke don't fix it like there's other stuff that you can be working on obviously you can get multiple multiple agents going but uh you know the price of agents is not nothing and it's probably i don't know is it going to go up is it going to go down it feels

26:06Jerod Santo:like so many of these there's a lot of blood and water right now between the agents at large you

26:11Adam Stacoviak:Right. There's this whole like cloud code subscription thing with open code. I don't know if you've been tracking that, but the way that, yeah. So Anthropic, I think, had an amazing idea with cloud code subscription, which I loved it. Like as soon as Jose added ACP, is that what it's called? Agent client protocol. as soon as I could use my Cloud Code subscription inside TideWave, I was ready to dive in. Whereas if I had to go out and get a separate source of funding and get an API keys and spend API tokens.

26:45Jerod Santo:Asian client protocol, that was Zed's thing.

26:48Adam Stacoviak:Yeah, Zed started it and I think that TideWave is using it in order to use Cloud Code from inside TideWave versus a Cloud API token. And I can piggyback that on top of my already existing monthly fixed limit. as a guy who likes to know what he spent every month, I like that. It just makes it an easy adopter. Same thing with these new OpenClaw-style tools. If we can just plug in our codecs, we're already paying whatever, OpenAI, we're already paying Anthropic, just plug them in, and then it gets rate limited as I have tokens available per month. It's a fixed cost. I feel good about that. Well, Anthropic does not feel good about that.

27:27Adam Stacoviak:So they've been changing the rules around your Cloud Code subscription and saying that you can't use it for third-party tools. You have to use API tokens. And this has a lot of people not too happy. I'm one of them, but I also totally understand it because, I mean, they got to make some money, right? They got these huge valuations. They got to have revenue, right?

27:49Jerod Santo:Yeah.

27:50Adam Stacoviak:When you look at the landscape,

27:51Jerod Santo:this is at least where my lens is at. Google has money to burn, and they can operate at zero margin and profit for a long time. Totally.

28:06Adam Stacoviak:They got a cash cow, which is different.

28:08Jerod Santo:Precisely. And so then you have Anthropic, large investment, large capital raised, massive valuation. You see the big number, but the spend is so astronomical. And then you couple that with opening up the same, right? The same large investments.

28:25Adam Stacoviak:Yeah. Yeah.

28:26Jerod Santo:And you got two key players that can't can't lose. Right. That's the that's the game of business. Like don't lose the object. Right. Don't lose and play for as long as you can. Right. Play forever. But when you have Google and they're doing well, I mean, they're doing quite well. They're very impressive. They're I mean, just they're they're actually surprising me. I didn't think they would, but they are. but when you have this kind of scenario where you've got such massive capital raised and you've got Google who can essentially operate at no profit for as long as they have to they can bleed them dry to some degree so they have to win they have to profit so when you look at this landscape y 'all it's not by surprise that Anthropic and OpenAI are going for ways to make money and Google's giving away Notebook LM giving away Nana Banana giving away things you know in in a lot of ways because they they're the ones with the moat to lose you know these other folks are essentially new that open ai is the incumbent when it comes to the first large language model that was largely usable by mass right but google's catching up and they have the dollars to fund catching up and they have the dollars to lose catching up and uh flatten the market and so you've got those worlds and you gotta expect this now is a good business for open code no i I think our friends over there, that's not cool to do that.

29:52Jerod Santo:I don't know what that means. There's also this news about, which is not in any of our notes, but this news of, what is it called? Distilling. The open models distilling from a mass infiltration into Anthropic and Clod and whatnot. Like a massive amount. And the world's kind of applauding this. Can you explain that some, what that means? I didn't prepare for that. Okay, it's not in our notes.

30:20Adam Stacoviak:I can probably do a short version. I think I know what it means, but I'm not totally up to it, which is that, and this is Anthropic, is saying that there are organizations abroad, I'll just leave it that vague, that have been basically creating tons of accounts and prompting Claude and extracting a whole bunch of stuff in order to train their models on the results. And that's what you mean by distilling, I think, like taking the results and turning them into a new model. And they're mad about it, which I understand why they are. Am I explaining it right? Is this what you're talking about?

31:01Jerod Santo:Yes. Okay, so let's see. I grokked it really fast because honestly, grok is the best for real-time news. Let's see if they can actually help me out here. So I'm going to paraphrase a little bit of it, but the biggest recent story involving Anthropik, This is me reading directly from Grok's response. So forgive me if there's any corrections or a lack of correctness. The biggest story involving Anthropic, the company behind Cloud Code, Cloud AI, models, and distillation broke just yesterday, which was February 23rd. This is February 24th, 2026, as we record. Anthropic publicly accused three major Chinese AI companies, DeepSeek, Moonshot AI, and Minimax of running large-scale coordinated distillation attacks on Claude to steal slash improve their own models.

31:46Adam Stacoviak:There you go.

31:47Jerod Santo:Now, the world will say our fellow friends out there on Twitter slash X and other places will applaud this. you know i'm just not i'm just not sure i want to applaud anything in this tumultuous world where where there's massive downness i would say in a world we want sort of massive upness okay i'm not sure i want to applaud this i'm sort of in the middle there because they would say that well anthropic did the same thing to other things to get to where they're at right you know how did their models get trained in the first place right etc and i get that argument but that genie is out of the bottle and and applauding somebody's downfall i suppose because of somebody else's upfall especially in a coordinated distillation attack i mean would you would you categorize it

32:37Adam Stacoviak:as an attack i suppose so if they're categorizing an attack i guess it depends on who you are i

32:42Jerod Santo:think they said like there was 12 million i saw this post from um 24 000 fake fraudulent accounts

32:50Adam Stacoviak:if this is correct from they were using the slurp down results generated over 16 million exchanges which are conversation slash prompts with claude yeah so like are they i mean are they paying if they're paying then it's like i'm sure it's against against the terms and they could spend their accounts i don't know it's a tough one i think that obviously the existing players who have trained their models on the world's information, including proprietary content and the work of artists and the work of photographers and just et cetera, et cetera, and the work of coders. In the case of some of these models trained on publicly available code, but not liberally licensed code, not merely liberally licensed code.

33:38Adam Stacoviak:And so they're stomping on GPL code, for instance, which we know has happened. And I feel like there's recourse for them in the United States at least. These are all American companies in the case of Microsoft, OpenAI, Anthropic, and Google. They all can be adjudicated in the court of law. And if there's any justice in our court system, which sometimes you get it, sometimes you don't, I think that will play out. And there has been results based on scanning books, buying books, et cetera. But when it comes to the world stage, I mean, what do you do when it's coming from a different country or different jurisdiction?

34:24Adam Stacoviak:I don't know. Yeah. So it's a tough one. It's murky.

34:28Jerod Santo:Yeah, it summarizes at the bottom. It says in short, distillation itself is normal tech. I mean, if you look at just a short tangent, I believe the way that Airbnb became so successful initially was because they leveraged off of a non-existent web-based scraping API against Craigslist. They would find things that they could post. I mean, this is in the history books. So that's a version of distillation, right?

34:53Adam Stacoviak:It's kind of like one person's scrappy startup is like another person's attack, you know? Yeah. Yeah. It's like, well, we were just trying to figure it out and we needed data. And so we scraped some data. And who hasn't gone out and just scraped some websites for their own use? I mean, we all have. I mean, how do you?

35:09Jerod Santo:Yeah. I mean, 100%. You got to do it with taste. Obviously, terms of service is a real thing. Yes. And that's what they say here is like doing it at massive scale against the competitor's paid API. In violation of TOS terms of service, especially across borders. this is what Anthrop is calling out as a major problem right now.

35:31Adam Stacoviak:I understand that, I guess. Who's got time to read those terms of service, okay? Right. We need the one person. Just have your agent click on it, okay? That's right. All you need is just spin up an agent, call them, you know, clicker, clicker bot, agree bot, and have it do it for you. Now, did you actually, are you at fault then if you didn't actually click that acceptance? Something else clicked it for you? Time will tell. time will tell it's a weird world as things get increasingly uh agentic and increasingly like the snake eating its own tail you know i think we'll start to see it unravel even more i don't know

36:10Jerod Santo:well that was not at all in our list of things to talk about today well we side till that's what happens yes uh let's quickly mention two things more about russ and move on to a couple other topic. So I want to mention Ubuntu is also using Rust. We're not going to go into detail there, but there's a lot of cool things happening there. I think Rust has a recent survey out that I don't have notes on, but I want to mention. There's a new survey for it. We'll put that in the show notes. And then obviously, there is some change in terms of compilers, registries, tooling for Python, JavaScript, etc.

36:49Jerod Santo:yes it's now being written in rust and one of the most recent was oxc's javascript oxidation compiler which is a collection of high performance javascript tools written in rust let me okay let's just put two maybe a phrase together say two words together high performance i guess that is one word if you hyphenated it yes right high performance and written in rust those two phrases will forever those those that's the way to describe the next project you do right in rust if it is a tool for X written in Rust. It's going to be high performance written in Rust.

37:21Adam Stacoviak:And if you just wrote it recently, then it's modern. So throw modern on there. And now, I mean, that dog hunts. You're selling. You're selling right there.

37:29Jerod Santo:They wrote it. I mean, they're reusing the same verbiage that Astral did with UV and others. Rust is high performance. Rust is fast. Rust is memory efficient. And just one thing on C++, the one issue with C++ is how you have to manage memory in your mind as you're designing and writing the code. And now if you're using an AI, then you're not writing much of the code to write it, but you still have to manage the memory manually, whereas Rust doesn't fork in. So that's kind of what makes it high performance is the developer can let go of that concern because the compiler is just that smart. That was the design of Rust all along.

38:05Jerod Santo:That was what they tried to do writing it, but I wanted to mention that quickly on that front there. You want to touch on any of that at all before we hightail to somewhere else? Yeah, totally.

38:13Adam Stacoviak:So first of all, this is not from Astral, even though it's... It sounds like it should be. It sounds like it should be. You know who it is from? It's from VoidZero, which is Evan Yu's startup, Evan Yu of Vue and Veet fame. And so he has his bona fides. And so this is from people who know what they're doing. OXC.RS. And so it's the foundation of modern JavaScript tooling. And so what is it? OX Lint. There's a Linter. so again following a little bit in astral's footsteps there they started with rough which was their linter i believe and then there's ox fompt as the gophers like to call it ox format but in in goland they always like to say fompt yeah fompt fmt so there's either ox fompt or ox fompt you know you decide um which is a prettier compatible formatter and then they have a parser which of course I think these other things are probably built on and a transformer and a resolver and a minifier.

39:15Adam Stacoviak:So it's a bunch of sub-projects

39:20Adam Stacoviak:with free and open source. So this is cool. This is cool.

39:25Jerod Santo:How in the world do you build such amazing things on free and open source these days? It is a conundrum in this new world. Wow. I'm so happy about it, but it's also very scary.

39:33Adam Stacoviak:In the case of Void Zero and OXC, is that they're calling this? OXC.

39:41Adam Stacoviak:built on sponsorship so they have some silver sponsors on the website bronze sponsors and individual backers and so you know they're going straight up sponsorship style and hopefully that works for them

39:54Jerod Santo:yeah OX look at this domain Jerry we didn't even mention the domain yet .rs Rust right that's the extension for Rust That's a five letter domain right there.

40:09Adam Stacoviak:That's a nice one.

40:11Jerod Santo:OXC.RUST slash sponsor. If you are interested, they have details on why the sponsor, who current sponsors are, which is seems to be plentiful from individual backers to corporate sponsors. One of a recent sponsor of ours. So kudos to them is Miro. Miro, actually, I should say. They told me to say it. It's hero. I can't say, see the word M-I-R-O and not think Miro. It is.

40:35Adam Stacoviak:Same.

40:36Jerod Santo:Miro. But it is actually Miro. Miro, like hero. Sounds like hero. Just so you won't know.

40:42Adam Stacoviak:Yeah.

40:43Jerod Santo:So when you think Miro, think Miro like hero. Okay. There you go. Just to be clear, not sponsored, but they have been a sponsor. Right. And so that's just bait into my brain. This message brought to you by our desire to say things correctly. That's right. That's right. Let's go on-prem. Let's go self-host. Yeah. I don't know what you're feeling on this, Jerry, but I feel like the future. this year, this last year was the crack in the earth to say on-prem is where it's at I think as we drive more of our own internal tooling as we start building more of our own SaaS replacements let's just say you know you're going to desire to self-host and now is the best time ever to get into HomeLab if you're not into that at all and I think the future is going to be self-hosted slash on-prem and I'm excited about that I am so excited about that, as you can probably tell.

41:34Adam Stacoviak:Well, I have a little secret I'm happy to reveal, which is that I bought a Mac Mini. I bought a Mac Mini. Wow. Yeah. Was it for our friend OpenClaw? Well, it's... Well, maybe. To a certain extent. I've just been building more stuff. You know, like, it's just living in a world where you can go from idea to something working in minutes. It's just hard not to just build kind of every, not everything you think of, but just more things. And, you know, I just build stuff here on my laptop and maybe I wouldn't source it. Maybe I don't, you know, it runs here. Fine. I ended up building stuff that runs on schedules and I'm just like, you know, my laptop closes.

42:14Adam Stacoviak:This is not a server. This is not a server. This is a work computer, you know, that moves places. And I don't have all, I have the only other computer I have in my entire house, besides laptops for my wife and kids is a Raspberry Pi that's in the basement that's not plugged in. That's a free, right?

42:36Jerod Santo:A Raspberry Pi 3.

42:37Adam Stacoviak:Yeah. Still capable. Totally, depending on what you're doing. Well, then I thought it's just time for some new hardware. And everyone was buying Mac Media's. I kind of got caught up and I told you about my friend that emailed me after or texted me after the news about OpenClaw. and he was like i just bought a mac mini and i'm just like you know what i'm just gonna i'm gonna buy one i actually bought i i actually bought the exact specs that you said you would buy i think when we talked about it yeah the second tier the top tier it's the top tier oh it's the pro yeah i did not go full ram because i'm not going to run much local i don't know i didn't want to spend i always go up to ram dude i always want more ram especially when it's based here's the other problem i wanted to play with it and when you go more ram it kicks it back like three weeks to ship oh yes and i'm like yeah i mean if i'm having tons of fun i don't know maybe i'll buy another

43:31Jerod Santo:one or something and give this one you can bolt on storage you can't bolt on ram yeah and you can bolt on storage at thunderbolt 5 i believe in the mac mini i could be wrong could be thunderbolt 4

43:45Adam Stacoviak:so you've got that full bandwidth anyway so i'm going on prem at my point i'm going on prem for whatever it is that I have nothing to run but I've been having some fun and I do I did try out NanoClaw I haven't set up OpenClaw but I do want to know this weird world all these people are living in and try it for myself ZeroClaw actually might be the one I set up first because that's really fast and way less resource heavy I don't know but I'm excited to just move some stuff off my laptop over to there and put it on a scheduler that got me thinking like you know max built-in scheduler is launch d which really doesn't have a good interface you know and just in the shower that day i was like i should just build a gui for it and be sweet you know like i could do that in an afternoon with me and my friends um and then it'd be like a cool launch d gui otherwise you can use cron but it's a little bit different on mac and things get weird you know so yeah i'm uh i'm all about it i guess we'll see i'd like to see that launch d gui that's actually

44:55Jerod Santo:uh that's cool that's cool i'll say you want me to name it i i got stuck on a name i couldn't

45:04Adam Stacoviak:think of a good name that's why i didn't build it you know you got to have a good name first and then you build the thing but uh i don't know yeah i don't know i can noodle on that a little bit

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47:24Jerod Santo:Again, squarespace.com slash changelog. Get that free trial. Use it. Enjoy it. And have fun.

47:37Jerod Santo:I did think about Bill O 'Reilly a little request from the audience if you're a memer if you like to meme out there take Bill O 'Reilly when he says F it will do it live and say F it will do it on-prem okay because that's what that's what the world needs is on-prem and self-hosted is the way of the future the cloud's still there and it's still great but I think I just miss you know like a lot of folks touching things like rack and server uh like i've got off camera you can't see it here i've got one motherboard there one motherboard there a case there uh an ssd nvme over there a cooler right there yes i'm worth to do and lack of time man lack of time but i got things i got two motherboards two cpus a couple things to build and I'm just enjoying that kind of stuff.

48:31Jerod Santo:I love building, as you already know. But I say we'll miss it as if I miss it, but I don't actually miss it. I get to do it frequently. I miss it in terms of time, but I'm paraphrasing and mentioning this post on Reddit. This fella, owngeneral6755 one day ago. Am I the only one who genuinely prefers on-prem over the cloud? Now, Jared, we use Fly. Fly. We love Fly. That's right. We're friends with Render. We're friends with other folks as well. I think there's, I'm not saying those folks are bad by any means, but I think when you're only answering, I think this is what own general 6755 is alluding to, and I'm not going to say this whole entire phrase, all the details in his Reddit post on our DevOps, but it's this fact that when you go into a new job, you go into a new position, you go into a new scenario where you're stacking new infrastructure, it's largely apis and services you're point you're kind of piecing together and as you know the guis are dying and clis are winning in this new world and you have to navigate all these settings we recently just did this with keys uh you know yes i couldn't see the keys that i mean it's okay they're called account keys right why can i not see the account keys you create jared help us out cloudflare does that make any sense you guys uh cloudflare that doesn't make any sense it doesn't make any sense that is i mean like the fact that i couldn't see when you could like we're both

50:00Adam Stacoviak:looking at the same screen and we're just like talking past each same credentials even like the

50:04Jerod Santo:same permissions the same administrative level permissions made no sense okay no sense and so when you're in that world and you have to like okay sure you have to have keys in on-prem you have to have ssh keys and permissions and things like that user accounts and you got guids gui You've got all sorts of things, UUIDs and stuff. Sure, you have those issues, but that's something you can control on-prem by just SSH-ing in and Linux-ing the way Linux works. You know, when you miss this world, when you have to build infrastructure on the cloud only, you just get to miss it. So that's all I'll say.

50:41Jerod Santo:You get to miss that kind of scenario. Your only choice to build your next big thing is cloud. I say, no, that's not cool. Self-host it first. uh in in fact tail scale funnel your way to success what's that well it's like a tunnel but it's a funnel okay so you could take something let's say you got something uh

50:59Adam Stacoviak:running locally on a port let's say port 8080 you can uh tail scale serve and tail scale funnel

51:05Jerod Santo:that thing into essentially punching a hole which actually doesn't punch a hole through the firewall because it's a mesh network and enable connectivity from the outside in and the inside out for example and so you can actually run a service on your mac media like you've got right or on your ain't got time to build it yet but i'm gonna soon kind of thing okay i got other things proxmox is over there don't you worry proxmox is humming along and doing well my gosh i've never had more on proxmox in my entire life um but you can use it there and build there and just tail scale your way to success okay look into it the next episode actually next week's episode tomorrow tomorrow's episode soon very soon very soon check your feed if it's in there go listen to it if not it's coming

51:56Adam Stacoviak:very soon

51:58Jerod Santo:is talking about identity in tailscale what I didn't realize so much so when I did this pod and it's a slight teaser for it is how embedded identity is in tailscale's networking so you largely think about tailscale is this glorified VPN and it is that But think of it like everywhere you go in the network, if you're authenticated, you are you. You got things like OIDC and things like OIDC connectors and being able to just already be logged in to TrueNAS or already be logged into Proxmox or pick your internal service that can support OIDC because your tail scale network, your tail net. When you go about it, you are you.

52:44and so you are you as your identity as well which i think is super super cool anyways on-premise the way that's all i'll say tunnel and funnel i like it tunnel and yeah it's not a tunnel

52:58Jerod Santo:and we didn't mention that in that pod i was like you know i thought it was a misspelling because tunnel makes more sense but i think cloudflare d has tunnel while tailscale d has funnel and i don't think it's actually called tailscale d but it is tailscale i mean it's

53:11Adam Stacoviak:It's effectively like what NGROC was always doing for us back in the day, right? Which is like open up. Yeah. Now, does that require some sort of…

53:18Jerod Santo:A version of it. A version of it. Now, NGROC requires you to port open on your firewall, whereas Tailscale does not.

53:25Adam Stacoviak:Okay.

53:25Jerod Santo:I did not know that. Yeah, there's no port opening whatsoever with Tailscale. And not an ad, but they are sponsoring us very soon. And you know I love them. You can go get a free account today. They're free forever. That's how they are. And so if you're a home labber or somebody has sent you with a hundred or less devices, Jerry. You've got to have one. Basically free forever. So you can home lab to your heart's content to a hundred and they're happy to have you. Happy to have you. All right.

53:55Adam Stacoviak:So you should use it. Quick side quest here. Yeah. In what calendar year do you suppose you, Adam Stachowiak, are going to hit that? You're going to have 101 devices on your tail. Like when are you personally going to hit that? we're talking like you're getting close we're talking like a decade never what do you think let me log in real quick devices are proliferating on on our networks you know sometimes before we even know it but it doesn't mean we're necessarily running tail scale on them yeah tell us what you

54:25Jerod Santo:got what are you working with let me tell you uh how many are here 54 oh and that's only because

54:35Adam Stacoviak:there's no cleanup okay you can probably get that down into the 40s yeah um let's see

54:43Jerod Santo:i haven't announced it yet and i'm not sure when i'll actually open source it but i'm building a self-hosted github runner because i was just tired of how slow github runners are and it's called you run that yeah they do yeah they do it's it's well they may change the ball they may change the the plane now that front there yeah uh but for now you can build an app and connect to github and build your own now i'm trying to do this and so the reason why i have so many is because it's in test mode uh and it's got a ton it uses tail scale for the networking to connect to things and so because of that it's got a lot of test machines that are actually not active so these are all dead ones part of my test so truly around 20 devices across my network but in actuality around 54 per the count right now and a lot of that is just cropped from so what's the calendar you're thinking like you think you ever hit that at your at your home office slash home lab no i think honestly i probably i probably hit it within this next year okay at that point it's it's propping up either an open source project that has a business attached to it or could have a business attached to it so i think at that scale if those were truly sustained true devices on the tail net uh that's not a home lab anymore i mean i think i don't know maybe actually home prod a home lab with 100 devices somebody out there's calling father like adam i got 99 man i got it i don't know i guess in the world home lab i'm not really sure yeah i'm not sure i will personally ever have 100 now if i had new projects I'm building and each one's self-hosted in my home lab and they're self-serving.

56:29Jerod Santo:That's a lot of software, man. I don't know. That's tough.

56:32Adam Stacoviak:You want to talk more about this runner? That's why they made it 100.

56:34Jerod Santo:It's just impossible, essentially, to hit that number.

56:37Adam Stacoviak:You want to talk more about this runner? I mean, I'm intrigued. So this is like, basically self-host your GitHub runners. Right?

56:44Jerod Santo:Yeah. So, let's see what I can share now. So there is a, I guess newer to me, probably less newer to others out there is a new thing called Incas. It's new to me again. That's why I'm saying new.

57:00Adam Stacoviak:Incas.

57:01Jerod Santo:Incas is, I'm on their website, linuxcontainers.org slash incas. Incas is a next generation system container, application container, and virtual machine manager. some history behind this which i'm loosely aware of is a canonicals lxd it was canonicals lxd and the the the fellow behind this his name is stephanie or stefan i'm sorry not stephanie stefan short named just a steph i believe and i could be wrong on that front but i'm trying to get them on the pod in the near future but this is the underpinning so So when I looked at Incas and because it's it supports like any Linux, ZFS, copy on write, you know, it's going to be really easy to to build on top of Incas.

57:51And so I'm I'm building Turk right now because I needed to build some, let's just say some stuff on GitHub through runners.

58:02Jerod Santo:And that's super slow. And we've known this because we've been sponsored by Depot and sponsored by namespace. or users of namespace. And this is well known that GitHub runners are just slow. They're not purpose-built runner platforms to run faster. And so the runner part of it is you have GitHub Actions. Instead of your project, you obviously have.github or something like that. And you have slash workflows. And inside of those workflows are things we'll run on GitHub Actions. And so when you push your repo, those live there. And they can run on schedules. You can hit them. They can do your releases.

58:37Jerod Santo:You can tag a release. It'll automate that stuff. And so then that instantiates GitHub Actions, which is essentially a logic platform. And if then else builds Linux, a bunch of crazy stuff. You can run a runner that just checks things, kind of like crawling away too. But then it dumps that off to their own actions runners, which as I mentioned, they're kind of slow. But you can also do self-hosted runners. Okay. And so if you just want to build your own simple self-hosted runner, you can do that today. But the problem is that I found, and the reason why I went this route, was because they give you temporary keys.

59:16Jerod Santo:They expire 90 days. They make it painful. They basically make it painful to self-host your own runner. And then you also have to do it per repository. You can't do it like I'm Adam Stack or I'm, you know, slash the changelog and put it at the org or user level. you have to do it one by one and the same painfulness on the key exploration one by one and i'm like well how did home depot home depot where's that come from well depot how did depot do it you know and so i started looking to this and it's an app you build a get up app gotcha and so i'm like okay uh and my goal with turk it's called turk because our friends back at amazon they used to have mechanical turk right i was like man the coolest thing for this now i'm to reveal this now if you go there you're gonna see nothing because this is like literally brand new turk.run okay that's the coolest domain ever that's cool turk.run is what it's gonna be i'm still not sure on the licensing but i'm thinking about building this uh into something that could be commercial i'm just not sure yet exactly where i'll land but the licensing battle on open source is a struggle because if i give this too permissive of a license it's easy for all these existing runner platforms just to use it so i'm torn there i could use some guidance and some advising on that front but i'm thinking gosh man don't hit me don't don't hate me for saying this man what i'm thinking some version of of what they call that i'm not even sure what it's called what it when you have open code but not open source open core oh uh business source perhaps Business source, but they call it source available.

1:00:52Jerod Santo:Source available. That infamous phrase we've said a few times. I'm thinking source available. And the call we had with the SDK folk, that was what really gave me a lot of insight into this world of like, okay, you can be source available, respect the world of open source, but still build a business on top of it. So I'm just not sure yet. I'm just not sure yet. But at this point, it's a fun project I'm building internally that has some long legs. And I'm using it in prod. It's actually right now building DNS hole. So that was actually the most recent win I had was let me actually dog food this thing.

1:01:30Jerod Santo:And so DNS hole is a private repo right now on the DNS hole user. So if you go there, gilb.com slash DNS hole, there is an org there, but nothing for you to see yet because it's coming soon. and the biggest issue for me was being able to build this thing not in a vm locally and a couple other things to kind of get it over this finish line and time and time really sure uh and so turk is what i built to do that because i was just like i want to self-host runners because get him get him actions runners are just so slow went down that rabbit hole built her and now i'm actually building dns hole with turk i'm just so close to like two cool things yeah well that's

1:02:13Adam Stacoviak:exciting i'm sure you'll let all us know when these things go out there right i mean it's what asap why not so soon so soon i actually thought about a uh an image registry as well because uh

1:02:30Jerod Santo:another project i have has to have a custom linux image and this threw a curb blot because i was not expecting to have to build a registry for this thing but a a turk image registry is the The next thing I just started to pin the spec on the Turk image registry. We often laugh, but yeah. Coming soon, Turk.run for now. Well, just know that I'm building it. And if you are interested in, if you believe that self-hosted is the future, which is why I feel so strong about building it. Because I'm like, this can solve our friend's problems. This can solve some enterprise's problems. and I want to build it right to solve my problems, but also think of it in a way that's reusable by the world.

1:03:17Jerod Santo:And so I'm trying to make it an internal project, which is kind of easy in this world and just say, okay, it'll be internal. I won't do anything with it. I really want to build it in a way that's usable by me. I want to prove it works for me, which was DNS whole being built with it and then being able to take it to the masses. So that's the next step. That's cool.

1:03:38Adam Stacoviak:Very cool. Should we move to our next story?

1:03:41Jerod Santo:There's more self-hosted. I think we'll gloss over a couple. So, DHH, this is not on the list, but he's talked about moving away from the cloud for a while. Hetzner's prices are up 30 % to 40%. I think this is largely predicated on the fact that RAM and CPU and storage, mostly RAM, is just astronomical. Jared, I think I told you this recently. I bought four sticks of RAM for like$200 recently. Four. Two of those sticks is$1 ,000. The four and dim problem. Back to that, yeah. So you spent$2 ,000 on them? I didn't spend$2 ,000. No. No, I spent$200 on four. Those four now are worth$2 ,000 on the market.

1:04:25Jerod Santo:Oh, you bought them at a good time. My gosh. I think the last day the prices were low, I think. because like I was surprised. I just bought RAM. This can't be true. Throw those on Craigslist, man.

1:04:36Adam Stacoviak:That's a good markup.

1:04:37Jerod Santo:Well, I got self-hosting to do, bro. I can't do that. Those things are too valuable to me. Now I'm like, OMG, I'm so glad I bought them when I did. Yeah.

1:04:48Jerod Santo:Yeah, I think Nanoclaw was the other one I wanted to put the list to.

1:04:51Adam Stacoviak:Gotcha.

1:04:52Jerod Santo:Nanoclaw moved from Apple containers, which I'm not that familiar with.

1:04:55Adam Stacoviak:Yeah.

1:04:56Jerod Santo:But I'm about to be because of Turk. Okay. Okay. And then, because part of Turk is going to be built on Mac as well, not just Linux.

1:05:04Adam Stacoviak:Interesting.

1:05:04Jerod Santo:But actually to automate Apple containers, which is cool.

1:05:06Adam Stacoviak:So I did download NanoClaw and I used it. I think maybe I told you that. We were talking about Apple containers, you and I, weren't we? Yeah, recently. Yeah. And so that introduced me to Apple containers, which is Apple's first party project. It doesn't ship with Mac OS. You'd think it would just be in there, but it's not. It doesn't? No. It's like a container project on GitHub. and you go out and click releases and download a DMG. It's very manual and weird. Maybe it's just an experiment and they're not going to want to support it long term. I don't know. You never know what Apple's up to. But it's basically, you know, like Docker for Mac.

1:05:45Adam Stacoviak:Without Docker, it's like an Apple version of what Docker does for Linux for Mac. It has very similar even command line UI and stuff. and you know it's fine and i used it because nanoclaw was built on top of it because the author of nanoclaw wanted to do that and i wanted to try something out real quickly on my laptop it was cool i got nanoclaw up and running the problem with it was he only supports whatsapp oh and he also doesn't take pull requests it's kind of an interesting project like the way he runs it i thought was fascinating at first but then i thought seems actually impractical which is that you do not add features to nanoclaw you add skills and you have your agents build features on your personal clone slash fork of nanoclaw yeah and so it's basically if you want the feature you can add a skill that like teaches will teach all of these things to use it but he's not going to accept any prs that says you know let's support Discord.

1:06:54Adam Stacoviak:Let's support whatever, Slack. And I thought that's an interesting model. And then I thought it'd be very fragmented and very difficult to actually stay up to date with NanoClaw if you have tons of modifications. Everybody has tons of custom features that are never going to be merged upstream. So I don't know. It seems kind of impractical.

1:07:15Jerod Santo:This is the same way that OpenClaw went too. This is Peter Steinberg. I was actually, he said this on the 21st on X. He said, if you're a service, I think it's also because he's getting inundated with like a lot of inbound, right? Side note, Peter, if you're listening to this podcast, respond to my DMs, man. Now we were actually, it's funny because just before like the uptick and the major craze, like there was a lot of inertia around ClaudeBot at the time. Now OpenClaw and all the names it has been, there was names even before ClaudeBot. we were talking and trying to coordinate timing. And then he got hit with that DMCA from Anthropic, which I think was just a little side tangent.

1:08:00Jerod Santo:What a bonehead move, right? How do you not see that this was an opportunity? And then you slap the guy with a rename and a DMCA. You know, like that was just like, how did you miss the force of the trees, you know?

1:08:12Adam Stacoviak:You know, like you're basically bringing a bunch of attention to a thing that otherwise had not that much anyways.

1:08:17Jerod Santo:Yeah, absolutely. And not only was it a cool project, but somebody who had a following. Like, you don't do that. That's just not very smart.

1:08:27Adam Stacoviak:The fastest growing repository in GitHub history. Yes, that's well-deserved, too. And now he's buddy-buddy with, you know, Sam. He's a genius. He's a genius. And now your competitor, OpenAI, employs him. That's right. So I feel like Anthropic did drop that ball.

1:08:42Jerod Santo:Oh, gosh, man. They botched that one hardcore. That's such a sad moment. But what he says here, and this alludes to what you're seeing about Nanobot, he says, if you are a service, make a skill or plug-in. You're not going to add random features or skills to core for visibility.

1:08:58Adam Stacoviak:Yeah. So I think this is the same stance, but I think the Nanoclock guy is like way more hardcore on it. Like his is way smaller already. He's still not going to add anything. So it kind of makes it where it's like, I'm going to go use either the real thing or something that's closer to it. And so I'm planning on not continuing with NanoClaw. I don't use WhatsApp. It's just not my ball of tricks.

1:09:23Jerod Santo:So his name is Gabrielle Cohen, to my knowledge. I've got to DM out to Gabrielle as well, NanoBot creator. So Gabrielle, come on the pod and share your thoughts on NanoClaw if you have them. NanoClaw. NanoClaw. Sorry. Change that name. NanoClaw. To be super clear, NanoClaw.

1:09:46Adam Stacoviak:dot dev. In one sense, it's like good for maintainers, you know, open source maintainers, because they're just like, you know what? You know, it's kind of the old Ben Johnson. He was the instigator of all this

1:10:01Jerod Santo:stuff, I think.

1:10:04Adam Stacoviak:Trailblazer, wasn't he? He was, man. It's kind of that. It's like, yeah, we're not taking PRs, but you can build a skill and you can just fork it and have your agents build whatever you want to. And I get it. I think that's an approach. I think you have a hard time fostering a community around that, but maybe I'm wrong. I know that OpenClaw has not had a hard time fostering a massive community. Did I say the right one? Yeah, I did. And they have, I think, two orders of magnitude more source code than NanoClaw. It's like 400 ,000 versus 4 ,000 lines. I don't know. so different approaches different results

1:10:49Jerod Santo:yeah different approach and results I think that you know as a maintainer of an open source project in the world of agents you are being inundated with pull requests you know a side note even on pull requests and what's your stance on code review and pull requests Jared I know you've traditionally just not been a fan necessarily but like do you think it's a dead thing do you think code review is dead uh in the sense of the where we've known it do you think pull requests are a version of dead

1:11:23Adam Stacoviak:well i think the the old phrase the future is here it's just not evenly distributed is so true right now in so many different ways and i think code review is going to continue to live uh in different places for a very long time even our good friend amel was like death on no code review we started talking about just like basically vibe coding and you know merging vibe merging stuff i mean in her domain that was like anathema basically i think that'd be the case in a lot of places um especially high stakes software for a long time but i do think the wind is blowing and i did give her i think my own experience of change and i've had a similar experience with self-driving cars where it's like at first you're like super nervous and you're criticizing everything they do and then like a couple weeks later you're just like yeah i watch it but it makes the right decisions like most of the time and and then a few months later you're like why do i have to even be watching the road because this thing is darn near flawless and i do to watch the road.

1:12:31Adam Stacoviak:But it's so good that I'm just like, I'm not checking on it as often as I would. Now, there are moments when you do, of course, in high-stakes traffic or dangerous scenarios. Weird one-offs where you're like, yeah, here comes an emergency truck and et cetera. Now I'm starting to pay more attention, but I think that is the trend line for code review from agent coders. Unless the advancements in their ability to write software stops right where it is. Like if it stops right here, code review is going to exist forever. But if it continues to advance, I think even as a longtime software engineer, you just stop watching as closely.

1:13:20Adam Stacoviak:And you're thinking at a higher level. And I think eventually if it continues to advance, we all do that. And in that sense, code review dies. that's my kind of dual-sided take. Maybe a cop-out because I answered both ways, but that's what I'm thinking. Yeah.

1:13:40Jerod Santo:I think it's going to evolve. I think it's going to be code review in the sense, like you push APR, someone, something reviews it there is going to become an evolution. I think we'll care more about code quality than code review, which is really the purpose of code review. Yeah. Is what changes, what's the implications of this change? Is it massive? And so in the sense of human review, massive change, massive PRs have been largely frowned upon, whereas smaller changes are easier. That's where you get the LGTMs on a massive PR versus a small one, which gets scrutinized to the nth degree, right?

1:14:22Jerod Santo:Right. Because it's so much easier to reason about, right? Yeah. And so I think you have this idea of reasoning about the code change, And you care about that. I think we'll always care about some version of code quality, but that's going to change. It's going to be about who. It's the same thing with shift left. It's like, sure, shift left, but now it's just like more on the developer. How much further left can we actually go with the shift left? Same idea there. I think you'll have more to reason about, to think about, and you'll always care about some version of code quality. But the purpose of caring about code quality is, is the intent met?

1:14:57Jerod Santo:Does it pass tests? Does it actually work in, you know, in development environments? Does it pass the smoke test where we spin it up 50 times and battle test it? And that's the point of like where you can do Turk type things where you can just spin up a ton of runners because they're more free in a self-hosted world. So like you wouldn't spin up 50 runners on GitHub to test because like one, potentially super expensive. Two, my gosh, super slow. Okay. But in the world of Turk where you can like self-host and infinitely test on, you know, easily clonable VMs or containers, system containers, like that's the world you live in.

1:15:31Jerod Santo:So you can ensure code quality at a much higher degree. And I think AI will continue to evolve this and will care about what has been code review, I think will translate into some version of code quality. And I'm actually wondering if the next big thing on this front isn't some version of a code quality gateway. You see this happening in AI where you have AI gateways, where you want to gateway the AI. This happened in networking, right? You have a network gateway or something like that where you can log into something.

1:16:01Adam Stacoviak:So like OpenRouter is a good example that you're talking about, right?

1:16:03Jerod Santo:Exactly. Something that lets you access more of the network is a gateway. I think I have more of that in the code quality. And what has traditionally been code review is going to be more in the real time. I want to know just in time, not before I push and hope and pray, but I just built this feature. Does this meet my intent? How does it work with others? I want to see it on my machine, not push to some place in Hope and Pray. I think things will change on that front there. I'm not sure exactly how, but I'm thinking code quality over code review. That's where I'm leaning. Two more things on our list.

1:16:45Jerod Santo:They're both kind of deep, and I'm not sure how deep you went with them because I shared this list with you moments before the show.

1:16:51Adam Stacoviak:I was just going to ride your coattails, which is dangerous. Dangerous, but I do like a little bit dangerous.

1:16:57Jerod Santo:It could be dangerous. Okay, so I'm going to loosely mention Boris Tain. So Boris Tain is going to come on the pod soon. The invite has been accepted. The plan has not been made, so there's not a date on the calendar yet. But one thing he said recently was the software development lifecycle is dead. You often hear the term, Jared, if you haven't, this is new to me. I had to learn it recently, SDLC. I'm like, what is SDLC? Oh, software development lifecycle. cycle so only if you sell sdlc type products do you know sdlc acronyms right right because you don't want to keep saying software development life cycle it's a lot right it's a lot yeah so i get it i get the acronym but for a while i was like okay what does sdlc mean again okay it kind of makes sense but he proposes i should say he purports that the sdlc as you've learned it is a relic.

1:17:51Jerod Santo:He shares, I don't know if we could throw some video up on this, but he shares a classic software development-like cycle where we're taught requirements, system design, implementation, testing, code review, hello, deployment, monitoring, and recycle back to requirements again. Like this has been a known loop. And he goes on to suggest how the, every stage is collapsing, how AI is really collapsing a lot of this. And it's not because AI is eating it. It's because more of what happened in the SDLC is happening more once and in real time versus in different, disparate places. And I think that's why I really care about just in-time code review as well.

1:18:32Jerod Santo:And it's not really code review. It's just more like, dude, is my code okay? You know? I actually want to call that dudeismycodeokay.com. And then that'd be kind of cool. I want that, right? Because I don't really want code review. but it kind of goes on through this and I think that kind of leans into the fact that we just talked about code view and code quality. That's going to be the thing. It's going to be more of this is getting compressed, more of this is getting replaced and compartmentalized in a way that it's just collapsing. A lot of this is collapsing and I kind of mourn in a way the old way but I don't but I do.

1:19:09Jerod Santo:I was watching how it's made recently, Jared, and there was this fella and he was making let's see, like you can make tortillas and stuff like that and you steam them and you want them in this thing and you want them to be steamed. Or maybe it's rice. It's this basket. And so he takes these four bamboo trees and you watch him go from four bamboo trees to many baskets. But it was not, it was not like minutes. It was hours, potentially even days of labor to go from multiple bamboo trees down to, you know, baskets. And I think that's like serious craftsmanship to hand make those things. And that's what we did in the old days, which was like basically last week in software.

1:19:56Jerod Santo:Yeah. You know, as we used to make software by hand, we used to hand craft. Some of us are still doing it. And some of us are still doing it. But I think that world is so changing. And then, you know, what Boris Tain is suggesting here is collapsing and changing is part of that. and so like you said before the the future is here just not evenly distributed i think maybe that's the case for most folks maybe the sdlc is is not dead for everyone maybe it's just dying or changing or evolving the word dead is just thrown around so easily right well it's sensational right sure i mean you got my attention right yeah you want to get attention you don't say

1:20:36Adam Stacoviak:things are changing you say like this is dead that's right and that's how you get attention so yeah I mean I've always looked at the SDLC with disdain myself you know probably because I was forced to learn it in college and anything you're forced to learn in school is lame right de facto lame

1:20:55Jerod Santo:so SDLC was not new to you this is a

1:20:59Adam Stacoviak:term you've known for years yeah it's like textbook stuff and then you come out of school and you're like I'm not doing that that looks rigorous you know Gerhard would do it he would love it he loves rigor uh the rest of us in this room not quite as much um it's hard to love rigor as much as gearhard the guy loves it so i always didn't like the sdlc of course it gets kind of associated with waterfall but you i mean there are all these steps and i always have felt like it was like the way that it was described to me and the way he's showing it as this like step-by-step process you're assuming each of these is like a massive undertaking i always felt like it should be smaller tighter and loopier and he's basically saying it is it's getting that way um so in a sense i think it was always should be less serialized and things happen at the same time and less people doing more things together at the same time and um now we're just taking the people out you know like that's the big difference now is like it's you and an agent and you're not waiting on design review or whatever it is you're not waiting on devops team which as our yeah as our friend ellie hustable pointed out as soon as you have a devops team it's not like devops has failed basically because the whole point was to you know integrate the dev with the ops and have them all be together.

1:22:28Adam Stacoviak:So anyways. Waiting on some other org, waiting on some other person, you know, waiting for your code to compile like the old comic or outside in the hallway. Sword fighting. Waiting for My code's compiling. Okay, cool. Exactly. Yeah. I understand why you're horsing around. It totally makes sense. You could do nothing else. Right. Why are you guys not working? It's like, well, we're waiting for system design. You know? We shouldn't be waiting for these things. And I certainly think that it's been collapsed for a while and it's just getting tighter and tighter.

1:23:18Jerod Santo:Well, friends, this episode is brought to you by my good friends over at Notion. We use Notion here at Changelog. I love it. It is so helpful. It keeps me on track. Notion agents, Notion AI, Notion all the things. Here's the thing. You probably spent weeks building out your team's knowledge base. You probably wrote the onboarding docs by hand, the run books, the architecture decisions, the how we deploy guide. Of course you did. And it's all Notion. Organized, searchable, beautiful. And your team still DMs you. Hey, Not just one question, it's 10 questions. Every interruption costs you 23 minutes of context switching.

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1:26:07Jerod Santo:Who was it that taught us about Q's? His name is missing on my brain in this very moment. dear friend he loves process what else was he talking about been on the pod before gosh man

1:26:22Adam Stacoviak:oh anytime you're queuing like you're not efficient kind of a thing yeah yes i want to say barrett hubert but it was not barrett hubert because they get up it's in that same wheelhouse lucas de costa i think wasn't it yes lucas de costa could call yeah yeah lucas he would talk

1:26:40Jerod Santo:i mean that was really where i was i mean i knew this so it's funny whenever you know something but then you don't know it until somebody gives it a name and defines it for you. Like, you know what? I've experienced that problem 17 ,000 times. Okay. Now I know it. I feel like I learned it there, but I experienced it for a long time. But just this cue process, like when you have a cue and a backed up cue, that's an inefficient system. That's obviously not a good thing, right? If you can solve the cueing problem, then you solve a lot of the bottleneck. And, you know, one thing that Boris suggests here is that, you know, going back to CodeReview in a way, or I guess directly, not in a way completely, he says, you're going to like this, man.

1:27:26Jerod Santo:Give me one moment. Where is it at? CodeReview. Give it up. Okay. Think about it. An AI agent generates 50, sorry, out of zero, 500 PRs a day. Your team can review maybe 10 review queue backs up. This isn't a bottleneck worth optimizing. It's a fake bottleneck, one that only exists because we're forcing a human ritual onto a machine workflow. And I believe that's true. Like in the SDLC, as you've learned it, and as we've all experienced it over our years, what is the point of the SDLC to ship software? Yeah. Right. And we've ritualized and and held secret these steps along the way because we've had to.

1:28:12Jerod Santo:And that's been our comfortability. So as humans, we have this comfortability gate. Well, we do this because that's what gives me confidence and comfortability to go to the next step. But if that's not required anymore or in these scenarios, if you're still doing it by hand, then obviously this SDLC as it has been is the way. But if you're moving to this new AI agentic world, it's just not. It's just not. We'll link it up in the show notes, but Boris Tain goes into a lot of detail there. Worth checking out.

1:28:43Adam Stacoviak:A couple of good comments I could pull out briefly before we switch context here. Because the 17 comments and they're pretty high quality. Oh, yeah. Definitely dig into those as well. I think you're good at the comments. One Kevin. I don't read the comments, man. Comment section sometimes is the best stuff. I meant that.

1:28:59Jerod Santo:I do read the comments, but you're generally like, hey, don't read the comments.

1:29:04Adam Stacoviak:So one Kevin says, a really high quality article, blah, blah, blah. I generally agree everything you've described here. But now I'm wondering what's left of the software engineer job. So as everything gets collapsed down, it's a really good question, of course. I think that's what's on a lot of our minds. And Boris's response I thought was pretty good. He says, everything that isn't typing code, typing on a keyboard was never the hard part. The job shifts from person who writes code to person who knows what to build and why. Taste, judgment, knowing when the agent is confidently wrong.

1:29:34Jerod Santo:Something new there.

1:29:35Adam Stacoviak:We've been saying that kind of stuff, but I think it's just, I think that's on point.

1:29:38Jerod Santo:Yeah, it seems. I mean even Scott Hansman comes to mind in this scenario here like when he says person who writes code and in particular typing on a keyboard one thing he told us in that show we did probably eight years ago I want to say Jared he said he had so many keystrokes left in his life and that stood out to me really as a very wise thing to think about and he judges I think he had even a program that there's a website you can go to yeah I know he like quantified in a way like it was It was important enough to not just stay on a podcast, but to actually put something behind it to quantify it for himself.

1:30:16Jerod Santo:I think about that. I would love to, while I'm a craftsman at heart or a craftsperson at heart, I want to be able to make the best thing. I have taste. I have judgment. I think, Jared, I like to know when the agent is confidently wrong.

1:30:32Adam Stacoviak:Yeah.

1:30:32Jerod Santo:That's questionable these days. I'm like, what did you say?

1:30:35Adam Stacoviak:Right. What did you say to me? That really is the hard one, right? Because you need to know more than it knows. And you don't. Yeah, and a lot of times you're like, well, I'm in over my head. And a lot of the tooling that I've been building, it's all pretty simple now. I'm building that Mac OS deal where it's like, I don't know, a lick of Swift. I don't know the UI kit, Apple, it's not an SDK, APIs. And so I'm just like, I'm swimming in deep waters when it comes to being like, nah, that's not the right way to do this because I literally have no clue what's the right way to do it. Now when I write node-based tools and Go-based tools and I'm looking at some JavaScript and it's kind of streaming by while Claude's doing his thing, I can be like, nah, this is looking pretty gnarly.

1:31:23Adam Stacoviak:I bet we could rewrite this and I'll talk to it. But how do you know when you don't know? That's kind of scary.

1:31:32Jerod Santo:That is scary, but then I think it's going to get so good that even when you don't know, at some point it catches up to fix itself. At least that's what I want to tell myself.

1:31:42Adam Stacoviak:That's the hope is it gets better from here. I mean, it's gotten way better in the last 12 to 18 months.

1:31:47Jerod Santo:Tell me if this is your flow with Swift in Xcode. Are you just command R-ing and getting the next build? Or are you actually doing some stuff in Xcode?

1:31:58Adam Stacoviak:Less than that. I'm not even running Xcode. In fact, when I first started, Claude told me to go ahead and launch Xcode and here's how you compile and run, which is like, yeah, command R, hit the build button. And I said, I don't want to run Xcode if I don't have to. Do I have to run Xcode? Can't you just write some sort of a build script that does it for me? And then it was like, yes, you're absolutely right. I can write a build script. And so I had to install Xcode, but I never have to launch Xcode. And so I just tell it to rebuild for me. and if I want to run the script by myself, I can. So all I do is double click on the app bundle and then I close it and I double click on the next one after it's rebuilt it for me.

1:32:40Jerod Santo:That's the same version of a command R, but not really. I guess command R just gets you a command R versus a close and open and close open. It's the same repetitive task. You're still an API in some way, but I guess in my case, I have more RAM consumed because X could probably require more RAM to be open just so I can command R.

1:33:00Adam Stacoviak:hog, man. That thing likes RAM.

1:33:03Jerod Santo:Well, the only experience I've had recently with Swift was actually with my Remarkable, is I started to build a file browser essentially for it, because this thing is kind of slow, if I'm being honest. It's Linux, and it's not the best CPU, but it's good for what it's intended to be. But navigating it, it's a touch interface, it's kind of latent a little bit, and so the API I wrote against it, a Go API against it is super fast, super fast. And then I built an app UI. It's a lot like Finder to navigate it, rename it, reorganize. But I've learned that it can't be a real-time system. I have to create a version of the truth over here in the Mac app that I then synchronize back to the Remarkable.

1:33:46Jerod Santo:And then the Remarkable has to do a refresh because of the way the Linux itself or at least the UI persists new rights to the database and new rights to the disk. So it's got to do a little restart there. But in the weeds a little bit on Command R and Xcode and Swift at development. I say, you know what, listen, if you're out there and you're like, man, I got an idea for this or that, go and try it. Explore a new world. Touch all the things if you can. You're in a candy store. it's all for you eat it enjoy it don't get fat just enjoy the candy yeah here is a quote

1:34:32Adam Stacoviak:from Wes McKinney who wrote a he's a software I think he might have I've coded it who knows called message vault that I've been playing with in his post the mythical agent month which was the title of the last changelog news he says the coding is easier now and honestly more fun and I can spend my time thinking about what to build rather than wrestling with the tools and systems around the engineering process. I found that to be absolutely the case with me just to, you know, give my amen to what you just said and to back it up. It's just fun to work at this level and just touch, touch all the things, try all the things, you know, build something, see if it sticks.

1:35:10Adam Stacoviak:If not throw it out and build something new, something else.

1:35:15Jerod Santo:Touch all the things that you should touch. Okay. Respect terms of service. Yes.

1:35:21Adam Stacoviak:If that's your life, if not, live dangerously. Right. Consent. You need consent for sure.

1:35:27Jerod Santo:Yeah, you do need consent in the word of touch for sure. Don't clip just touch all the things. Only clip it in context. Clip the disclaimer. Clip it in context. One thing we didn't mention, and I'm just going to mention it here on the out, that you should check out. And then I want you to also check out Anish. I'm not sure how you say his last name. Acharya maybe. He is from A16Z and Dreesen Horwitz. And there was a, you may have seen this, Jared, and tell me if you did, but there was a post that circulated called the 2028 Global Intelligence Crisis. Does this ring a bell to you at all?

1:36:12Adam Stacoviak:No. Tell me about it.

1:36:14Jerod Santo:Well, it is a thought exercise in financial history from the future. And so it actually writes itself. The very first – the dated line is February 22nd, 2026. That's scratched out, and it's June 30th, 2028. It's largely bearish, not bullish and negative, but it's – they say it's grounded on some research, and it's essentially the consequences of abundant intelligence. and it paints this picture of a of a just a downside that's coming when it comes to what automation does and i'm just not sure i'm just not sure yeah uh i'm that's all i'm gonna say because it really is that deep it's a whole podcast worthy uh topic thing but one thing that a niche shared was a different way that this could go down i'm only got both because i don't want anybody out there reading this thing uh and getting all negative and sad and you know going into a hole when we say go touch all the things and then touch only things turns into all this nasty stuff that this uh seemingly well-researched article from the future purports so i would read initials uh prose on x which we'll link to in tandem with this and try your best to come out not crying like a little baby because it is pretty it's pretty it's pretty wild i'll read the first line okay the unemployment rate printed 10.2 this morning a 0.3 upside surprise the market sold off two percent of the number on the number bringing the cumulative down draw in the smp to 38 from its october 2026 highs it just goes it's one of those kind of like doom and gloom but they even say in the preface that they're not trying to be doom and gloom but it is a doom and gloom kind of post they say what follows is a scenario not a prediction and it's based to some degree from i understand on uh on research so we'll see we'll see all right but don't go and read that get sad go read that and then go read initials post on x and uh and just see a different side There's always two different sides.

1:38:32Jerod Santo:Don't go read it like I did and get super sad for a day or two. Crawl into a hole. No, I didn't. I was pretty bummed out for like 45 minutes. I was existential for a minute. I was like, gosh, babe, I'm having so much fun. Tell my wife this. Gosh, babe. That's usually how I sigh in life is I'm usually telling my wife some sort of story from the battlefield, so to speak. Gosh, babe, this high or this low or this possible future. and I was like she's like what's wrong I'm like

1:39:07Jerod Santo:some big consequences out there coming I was like I don't really know how to take this so I was a little down for a little bit but then I read Anish's post I was like all right I'm right back up again let's see the bright side here so we'll see there you go we'll see we don't know we don't

1:39:21Adam Stacoviak:know that's why it's interesting and read both yeah read both read both well friend it has been

1:39:30Jerod Santo:the absolute pleasure of the people of my life to spend time with you on the weekly, on the daily, in the trenches of this war room called Software Development SDLC, as you may say.

1:39:45Adam Stacoviak:Oh, yeah. Living the life cycle.

1:39:46Jerod Santo:Living the life cycle, so to speak.

1:39:51Jerod Santo:Yeah, I guess. Yeah.

1:39:56Adam Stacoviak:Yeah, man.

1:39:57Jerod Santo:What did Lloyd Christmas say? goodbyes are hard man what he said to to Holly Hunter to the person he just met a few minutes prior I hate saying goodbyes yes something like that

1:40:11Adam Stacoviak:yep goodbyes are hard and we can always add a for now on there it lessens the blow not for good but for now and yeah it's been a blast appreciate the many years of potting together and doing life together, you know? Yeah. From afar, from afar. And we met on the internet and we've, you know, built a life for each of our families for a long time. And I'm excited to see where the changelog goes from here. You know, you were changelogging before I got here and you're changelogging after I leave. And I'm excited for what's next for me. I have zero plans for those who are interested in my future. I don't have one.

1:40:56Adam Stacoviak:uh i'm happy about that so i'm not locked into anything i don't have ideas i am going to take a break i definitely need to step away i've been i've been uh going full bore for for a while now and excited for what's next open to ideas don't have any of my own i have a few things i like to build but you know who knows i've had the thoughts of going taking a jobby job you know going working for somebody else it's been since 2011 was the last time i had a real job so i'm not sure if i could ever actually do that my wife thinks probably i can't like i'm just at this point unemployable could be true um don't know but happy to see uh where where life takes me next so yeah it's been a blast i think the only thing left to say is bye friends right we always finish

1:41:46Jerod Santo:with bye friends well i was gonna leave a little surprise for our plus plus folks i thought you owe them a little bonus. So if you're in that crowd, just get a little more excited. I'm not sure what's there. I'm not sure. I don't have a plan. Just an extended take, potentially, or extended, maybe a couple more details that are for our pertinent, really close folks who we really appreciate who have supported us over the years. Sounds good. Plus Plus content is always good. So if you're on that dial, then stay tuned. And if not, changelog.com slash Plus Plus is how you become that person. With that, friends, bye, friends.

1:42:26Jerod Santo:Bye, friends. Well, friends, it is a finale, but it's not over. That means this show continues. Yeah, nothing changes, really. Jared's stepping away. He's retiring all the things, and we'll miss him. But the show must go on. The changelog remains. changelog.com is here to stay. And if you haven't yet, join us in Zulip Chat, changelog.com slash community. It's free to join. Everyone is welcome. And I mentioned the bonus. If you want the bonus, you got to be a plus plus subscriber. changelog.com slash plus plus. It's better. You know what? It's better because bonus content rolls, getting closer to the metal rolls.

1:43:06Jerod Santo:And of course, you roll changelog.com slash plus plus. That's it. The show's done. We'll see you real soon.

1:43:24All right.

1:43:25Jerod Santo:I don't have a plan, but I figured a little bonus for the plus plus folks would be cool. Let's do it. I have no idea what to say there, except, um, yeah, the, I would say the, the treadmill of, of creating content is probably pertinent, right? Like, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's easy to look at. It's easy to look at this. Uh, and maybe even, you know, in the comment section in Zulip, uh, which I'm very happy that people are sad, I suppose. I would say that. I'm very happy that there's a feedback loop, I would say, right? Like it's one thing to put something out in the world on this media treadmill for so long.

1:44:03Jerod Santo:And I think where we get most of our feedback loop has largely been in Slack, in Zulip, and at conferences. Sure, there's DMs, there's people coming on the show, there's people who say, I've listened to your show for years. And maybe that's the polite thing to say. Maybe it's just something you say. But then somebody who actually gives you that hug or that handshake in person or someone who says, man, I'm really just thankful because you got me through some hard times when I navigated my career in software. And you were just entertainment in my ears. I think there's just something to be said about the media treadmill and the absolute chore it is to show up weekly for so long.

1:44:47Adam Stacoviak:Yeah.

1:44:49Jerod Santo:And not be biased or negative, which I think we've both been a little cynical and negative in this age. It's hard not to be when you've been through so much, you know?

1:45:01Adam Stacoviak:Yeah. I mean, I used to describe it internally. And you can edit this part out if you think it's too negative. What I say, we've created our little jail cell and now we've got to spruce it up and make it a nice place and live in it, you know? Yeah, we created our jail. So, you know, me and my most cynical just kind of – but we made it a nice place. It's a very nice one. That's just how it feels over time because of just the constant repetition of like a new week, a new set of shows. You know it as well as I do, if not better, that it's just nonstop. and

1:45:47Adam Stacoviak:sometimes that's good and sometimes that's bad and then over the course of years you get good at it. I mean I feel like we've been pretty good at it to where I don't think about it all that often and

1:46:00Adam Stacoviak:you do in a certain sense especially with podcasts feel like you're just putting something out into a void and hoping that people like it and I would say that especially in the last couple years we've had some I think we've made some real connections with some friends. A lot of our changelog++ people are those friends. So thank you.