From GitLab to Kilo Code (Interview)

35:54and then we also have an enterprise version with features that appeal to executives like centralized, bring your own keys so they can send it to Bedrock in their VPC. That makes total sense. So are you working on models as well? Are you just a model agnostic? What's your look on that aspect of the world? Yeah, we're not working on models ourselves. We're working very, very hard on supporting all the models. So hundreds of models work over 500. We're the most prominent launch partner for new models. So a lot of new models, a lot of stealth models are first launched on Kilo. And our users, a lot of our users use free models like Grok, MinMax, GLM with Kilo.

36:45Interesting. I think I haven't even heard of a couple of those. I've heard of Grok, but MinMax I haven't even heard of. So this is either underground or upcoming or when you say new, Bleeding Edge perhaps? Oh yeah, it's all new. It's like all launched in the last two months. There's a lot of kind of Chinese frontier labs. And they want to quickly get their models more popular. So they offer incredible pricing just like Grok. It's Grok Code is incredibly good model and it's been free for months now. it's an interesting space because you've got a lot of things happening around google in particular there was an announcement today for a flash model i think it's called gemini flash if i can recall correctly but uh you know when you look at that they can essentially offer their models in the api layer for virtually free or a loss leader because they're trying to build their platform while open ai and anthropic are burning cash making money for sure but you know when you when you're fighting a competitor that essentially can outlast you because they already have so much incumbent cash or value elsewhere in the chain it's kind of hard to to battle somebody who's willing to lose or break even when you have to profit what's your take on the current landscape of just the competitive nature from nation states like maybe china etc maybe that's just companies there to the battle that's playing out here in the US.

38:14Yeah, I think the kind of the leading coding model, that's an incredibly competitive space where kind of the, it always feels a bit like OpenAI is a better model. And then Google has a better model and then Entropic comes back with like the best model by far, for sure. Yeah. But also the best kind of free model is incredibly competitive with DeepSync, MinMax, GLM, all these providers kind of one-upping each other. And what we offer our users is you're going to keep using the same application. You don't have to sign up for a ton of stuff. It's just our thing. There's no charge. It's completely free.

38:59and then you have the ability to use any model you want soon you can use different models you can use free models bait models whatever you see fit so in kilo you can also kind of define different profiles because a lot of people prefer to open ai models for planning and architecture that they prefer something something else like i use opus 4.5 or for a hard book troubleshooting I'd use Grok for kind of the smaller tasks that are easier. So it's kind of a mix and match approach. I think we're going to live in a multi-model world instead of one model that's the best at everything. For sure. One of the challenges I remember for GitLab, which I think you all overcame, was because you wanted to be all-in-one and you were providing the entire software development lifecycle tooling, almost every aspect of that, you had like startups and businesses that like their entire focus was that one thing whether it was like bug tracking or observability or you know deploying or whatever it is i feel like you're going to have the same situation here with kilo where it's like there are people attacking like separate slices of what you're trying to do and i wonder how you're going to do all the things well yeah the same way we did it with git lab go incredibly fast if you look at like where we've come from.

40:27We only started in March and now we have code reviews, deployment, all these things in one packet. So we're moving extremely fast also thanks to agentic coding plus contributions. And I think we can even improve a little bit on working with the wider community. And yeah, when GitLab grew up it was like, oh, but Travis CI has already dominated the CI space. It's now like, hey, hey, CodeRabbit is already dominating code reviews. Just, yeah, let us cook. We'll go faster than anybody else. You got the same people working on it, or how do you know you can cook so fast? I mean, it worked last time, but was it the same team?

41:10Because talented people make good products. There's some people who, after GitLab, went to work for other companies, and some of them have joined, but the majority of the team has never worked at GitLab. And they joined Kilo because they want to go incredibly fast. They know the bar is high. They know they've got to work really, really hard. For example, at some point, once a quarter, we come together. We do a focus week, and we all work our butts off for a week. And we do that together. And a week before focus week, it was clear that we weren't recruiting fast enough. So I put a LinkedIn post out.

41:48I said, look, apply by Monday. We'll make a decision by Wednesday. And then the next Monday, you're expected in Amsterdam. and four people did that, and they all shipped the initial prototypes of their functionality by the end of the week, and all of them launched their functionality December 10th, less than two months after Focus Week, and it's all held up so far, and now they're all going to make it better, but it's incredible speed. The way I would look at it is it used to be that you needed like a team of seven people to do something. now you have one person and kind of a whole team of agents working on something so yeah we have like 20 engineers but in reality they're all working with seven agent decoders and that's the expectation that you as an as one human you ship at the speed of what two years ago would be a team of seven or eight that's interesting so you've successfully parallelized your cancer treatments and your engineers are parallelizing their agents i can still only keep one agent busy at a time.

42:51Maybe I'm not ready for this new era. I couldn't work for Kilo. How do they do it? You know, when you got all these different, you know, down in the weeds of how they're managing multiple agents working on a singular feature, I suppose, or a set of features that support a larger feature and how are they staying productive and fast in that environment? That's common. Like you're not alone in only being able to keep one agent busy. But I think 2026 is going to be the year that that changes. Our parallel functionality where you have kind of, you farm it out to multiple agents in multiple work streams.

43:27That's just getting started. A month ago, the engineer who made Schaltwerk, one of the early ways to parallelize things, joined us and he's doing amazing work. There's still a lot to do. For example, Kilo has a functionality that's orchestrate. With orchestrate you say this is what I want to achieve and split it up into separate jobs so each of those jobs has small context windows because small context windows means it's cheaper to run, it's faster to run but most importantly it's not going to lose half of its context because it's kind of getting to the maximum context window that's effective.

44:06but in the coming weeks we'll ship something where those different agents are now able to work in parallel and you can do a runoff especially if you're using these free models you might as well have two models work and then see which ones have which one has a better result so i think you're you're we're we're going from you have one working directory today to in the future, you have multiple tasks running in parallel. And each of those tasks is running multiple types of agents because it's hard to predict up front which agent will be the best in any given thing. Right. That sounds cool. It also sounds expensive.

44:45I suppose commodity pricing just keeps going down. Is that the approach here? Just innovation and investment brings down the price of agent coding? If you go to kilo.ai and you look at our homepage, We see the 10 most popular models for TLO. I tried to count them this morning, and I think 8 out of 10 offer free usage today. So that's a way to afford it. Free as in freemium or free as in free? Free as in free. But until what? What's the catch? There is no catch. Grok is amazing. I've been told that plenty of times in my life, and then eventually there's a catch somewhere, somehow. Well, it might be that this whole thing ends at some point where these models...

45:31Yeah, the catch is it's temporary, maybe. Where these models... But what we've seen over time, this has been going on for half a year now, and there's models that kind of launch for free, and at some point they become paid. But the rate at which free models are launching is faster than the rate at which they're getting deprecated. So there's now more free models on the market than there were half a year ago. That's interesting. Eventually, you would think you'd have to make some money somewhere, you know? Yeah. Maybe this is like when VC money was plentiful and the Ubers were really affordable.

46:06VC dollars are plentiful and the leading labs have free models. I like. Right. Use it while you can. Yeah. Use Keylor to burn. Burn the VC money out. Burn the VC money. I think that's a legit strategy. the challenge with it is over time I think you do become hooked you know it's like uh like drug dealers the first one's always free now that for in this case maybe you get a lot for free but eventually it's like I don't know how to write software any other way and then you know three years from now and that's when they turn on the old money making machine and now you're just subjected to renting your life away but yeah it's I I think the what you're hinting at is that the cost will go up i think the cost will go up not so much because the same quality model will get more expensive like the same quality model gets 10 times cheaper year over year right but what we've seen is that the price of a frontier model per token has kind of held steady and every time we think it's going down there's like gpt 5.2 uh what is it thinking or pro the really expensive one and and so that's holding steady but the amount of tokens you can burn as a human that is shooting through the roof yes with this like split split up the work with my only one agent you know i'm only doing one agent i can burn some tokens i imagine if i had six agents going i mean that's just 6x my token ability exactly and the future we're going to live in is not one where you have like a hundred dollar or like like a twenty dollar subscription a month i think humans are gonna burn ten thousand dollars in tokens maybe a hundred thousand dollars in tokens per human you think so and they'll be they'll be a hundred times more effective than the humans of yesterday right it'll be worth it because one human plus all that is more effective than exactly however many humans would cost you that 10 grand doing what i guess is the question like is it just coding is it just planning this is next business man i mean this guy's got businesses coming out his ears doing doing everything like every knowledge worker is going to have a collection of agents working for them it's a wild world yeah it's interesting about the how that plays out though like you know it's it's almost unimaginable to think about like i couldn't imagine this year from last year for example i could i suppose but the vantage point the perspective is it shifts so quickly and so much like for example i just mentioned you know google and their flash model that's like news as of i believe today like in the last 15 hours you know every day or week we have a new model new flip a new change and it seems to be like ux is the moat ux is still being figured out i think kilo is an example of how you're trying to evolve or think about different use around agentic usage, it seems hard to predict where we'll go.

49:09It's incredibly hard. And we thought this AGI, where AI would be as smart as you, this is a seminal moment. And it happened in April. It just flew by. We hardly even noticed it. You said we had AGI in April? Is that what you just said? Yeah, I think in April, the models became as smart as the median human. Oh, is that what AGI is? Artificial general intelligence, yes. My definition, I stole April from Tyler Cowen, which I think is one of the smartest people on Earth. Okay. I must have missed it. I just don't know how generally, I guess maybe you're saying because most humans are generally unintelligent.

49:52Well, also like think about ChatGPD, like it might not know more than the expert in a field, but it knows a lot about everything. The ultimate polymath. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, like I was having some really interesting conversations with the chat GPT the other day that was very therapeutic. You know, I have been on the code side of things, and that's where I'm comfortable at, like with how it knows what to do. And I guess on the human side where I have a conversation with it, and it's not just a question and answer, it seems to know such detail about particular things. And I don't know how it does that, but it was a therapy conversation essentially.

50:36And it was just uncanny, the response type and the level of care. And it wasn't just how it outputs. It wasn't just formatting. It wasn't just user experience. It was this depth that I never expected a machine, basically, and potentially even AGI, who the heck knows, to give me back this feedback loop. I just never, like, I'm steeped in this stuff, right? I think we've been steeped in this stuff for years and it is just quite literally unbelievable. Like, unbelievable that I can have that kind of conversation. I'm being vague to a degree, but it was very therapeutic. It's incredible. This year, it helped us a lot.

51:18Like, think about how much stuff I had to learn this year. And even yesterday, I was like, I don't really know how a TCRT is different than a CAR-T. And wow, ChatGPT walked me through it and all the pluses and minuses. But we're going to give a talk at OpenAI soon because we did some things that were super beneficial to us. Like we did an RNA test of my cancer to know what RNA was going on. And we just sent a spreadsheet to ChatGPT. And what came out of it was really insightful. Can you be specific in any way? Like what blew your mind, I suppose? What you're looking for with RNA is like not so much, you have the genetics, but what's actually happening at the cell level, what's being expressed, and what are potential pathways that are overexpressed and you can target.

52:12Because I know from the genetic, there's something that sounds like a party drug, but isn't. MDM2 is overexpressed. But I want to see how like the thing it acts on, the p53 division how that's how that's going in my cell and there's better examples here but i'd have to hashtag gpt for them i don't want to be distracted while talking with you but like for sure just incredible things and it's not the end all be all like don't take a treatment without first checking it with a doctor but just if you have to get smart about a subject in a year what what a what a yeah an amazing blessing it is it can connect dots that's where i like in this the dot connecting is is across the board of all sorts of different disciplines and domains that's why i said polymath because like yeah that's probably not even a great example it's like you know uber ultimate ultra think polymath i don't know no polymath is great and that's also the big benefit right like we deal with a i've talked to hundreds of specialists this year but when you you start talking to people who are extremely narrow because they're like the expert in the world in one specific thing.

53:19Right. It's really hard to do the integration. You end up in these meetings with like eight people and they're incredibly expensive and hard to organize. And something like ChatGPT, which is like very knowledgeable about everything, is incredible for integrating the knowledge and giving you directions to go in. Yeah, that's where I really, and maybe this, I don't want to tangent us by any means, but this is where I get really, really conceptual, I suppose, about where the future might go. Because we need, I think at least, even in this moment, we need humans to go super deep and super thoughtful into a very specific domain.

53:58And like you had mentioned, you have to have eight humans in a room, hard to organize. But we need those kind of folks to think about the long-term future of humanity and not so much like in this way I'm saying it, but like feed this algorithm, this LLM, this model, its knowledge, not to replace them, but to augment how fast we can iterate through a problem set that requires eight humans and a polymath that sits above those folks to go so deep on a subject that's just basically impossible for eight collectivism. didn't mind us to do in one briefing room. Like it's just humans don't work that way.

54:37We don't share that way, even interpersonally, but a machine or an AI that's designed to do that can for us. And that's really where I, it's kind of like a headspace kind of thing, but that's where I mapped to is like, you got to have these super deep thinkers with this deep knowledge. And they, they're obviously going to be human because that's what, what we've been as a race to enable this AI to think so deeply and so vastly as a polymath would and connect dots that we just wouldn't normally connect as humans. That's the saying, if I've been able to look further, it's because I stand in the shoulder of giants.

55:15And it is, in a very narrow field, you're able to, some people are able to read all the relevant publications and to keep up with that. But it's incredibly hard work. and now with these AI things you suddenly have a thought partner that not just read everything in the field you're in but in all other fields so you're not you're not forming these people standing on top of each other in in one discipline it's like it's as far as the eye can see every discipline you're up to date on the latest knowledge that that is just incredible it allows you to like run around where before if you if you moved outside of your field that the whole thing fell down and now you're just able to combine disciplines like like never before yeah it really is amazing where it stands today and also where it's headed which none of us can really know but we can see that trajectory moving us forward so you just got this engineering meeting all the ideas are great and now you've got to go through your notes this time-consuming part read them all digest them all add action items put it in the right places tag team members this is all necessary work but it's tedious okay so flip side that take that same position and flip it over into notion and using notion agent notion agent does the busy work for me it's like having a project manager that keeps everything on track in the background while I focus on the bigger picture.

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59:01You mentioned$10 ,000 a month, something like this, you know, with a human and some agents doing their thing in the future. I just saw a post today about cursor, someone paying$1 ,400 a month for cursor and, and someone saying that's ridiculous. And then the other person saying it's worth it etc etc we can have these kind of battles but it made me think back to kilo because i i did see on your home page you're kind of attract trying to attract cursor customers i think there's even a billboard somewhere in the valley calling all cursors over to kilo can you explain the angle um the relationship i'm sure you have plenty of cursor users listening to the pod who are very familiar with that particular tool and maybe use that as a way to explain what Kilo looks like and how it works and all that.

59:47Cursor is always a little bit vague about what is list price and how much do you pay, and they make significant changes over time. With Kilo, we pride ourselves on, you can use over 500 different models, including a ton of stealth ones and free ones. Also, if you're going to pay for a model, you pay list price. We charge exactly what the provider lists as a price. so you know exactly what you're getting for your dollar. And I think as people start kind of consuming these AI tokens more and more, that is the way to go. Instead of like a subscription where it's a fixed amount, but if you go over, there's a charge, which might, it's probably higher than this price, but it's hard to exactly know.

1:00:37We think a great mix of free models for the problems where you can use those plus paid models at exactly this price without any commission or overcharge is a compelling proposition. And so Kilo uses this orchestrator itself in order to pick models in addition to orchestrating your own tasks based on complexity and the particular needs. Right now, people are still selecting their own models in Kilo. It's not trivial to select the best model, and people also have their own preferences. And what people especially don't want that choose Kilo, they don't want the model to switch up on them. They don't want auto model where you don't really know what it did.

1:01:27And they also want to be sure that they're using the exact same thing the whole time. So if I say I want that, I want exact that with the exact context window, because it's very frustrating if you're randomly using another model or somehow the context window is half of what you're used to. Right. I think humans are really good at kind of using, selecting the right model for the right task, but you don't want to, you don't want the software to change it up on them unless, unless they, they give you permission and then still you want to know what exactly was used. that could be configuration in a way right you can automate that that selection through configuration obviously we went convention over configuration in a lot of cases but that's a way where you can say well when you do these kind of tasks for me i'm cool with you being on the flash model for example or on the haiku model where it's faster more iterative planning whatever and but when we're planning what we're going to go deep and we're looking at a jira ticket or a looking at a pull request and we're looking at this i want you know the the better model the more reasoned model to to examine that for me in kilo you have profiles and you kind of set your own profile and that's a combination of want to use this model but i also want to include these prompts you can even share these profiles across your organization so you you collectively work together of like this is a really good agent for upgrading our java code or something like that Because those are going to change too.

1:02:53And your mileage may vary. So you may use a particular model and you're a REST developer. Or you may use a different model and you're a Java developer. And you may get better results per your team with a model. And that's something you should probably be able to select from. But you're still getting top tier models, but in a config where you can say, well, I prefer Opus 4.5 versus the latest Gemini, for example. Yeah, and you're basically creating team members. And just like in a real company, it's helpful to have the same team member. Now, these profiles don't have memory yet. That's something for the future.

1:03:28But they already have a collection of prompts that are super helpful for that company, for example. And simply your style guidelines are like, I tried to upgrade our Java before and it needed these and these prompts to be effective. So being able to share at least these prompts is super helpful. How does Kilo manifest itself to people? like what does it look like how does it work you mentioned it's in like all the major editors so i imagine it's just in the case of vs code extension and there's a windsurf deal can you explain kind of the surface area of the product yeah so it's all the vs both vs code based editors all the jetbrains editors it's available there's a cli that you can run anywhere and then we also allow you to kind of run it in the cloud cloud agents that's called and then we're soon launching it works on mobile already but we're soon launching a mobile app as well oh explain how that would work i think one of the cool things is if you have a thought you can just kick off kick off the agent yes with that so instead of kind of give it to me yeah look you're somewhere you're not going to go to your desktop you have an idea now you write it in your notes or whatever you do tomorrow you just kick off an agent and then you can pick up that agent whenever you get behind your notebook again.

1:04:47It's going to be available in JetBrains, in VS Code, etc. So all your sessions, you have a complete overview of your sessions, whatever platform you're on. And I'm looking forward to also getting kind of a mobile notification when my agents are done, because that's my primary thing. Like the agent is done. I need a ping so I can see what it produced. This is something that Cloud Web is what I call it. It's just cloud.ai, but it's not cloud code. It's Cloud Web. they just enabled you to connect a repo on GitHub. And I think this is like early days of this feature. And I didn't really have a repo to connect it to, to think about.

1:05:25So I was like, I just want to like do it in an isolated area where there's no damage. You know, I can't go write code accidentally or send a pull request or do something weird. And I connected to a brand new empty repo. And I just kind of one-shotted in a way this idea that was really just a basic GoCLI. Right. And in this case, it was kind of a coding session, but I was just trying to thought experiment. Okay, if you have this mobile interface or this web interface that is not a coding environment at all, it's not cloud coding in the terminal. It doesn't have terminal functions. It doesn't have your system or things like that it can use to write a Python script and run it kind of thing.

1:06:01I suppose it does in its own virtual environments. But I was like, how does this work where you can not be in any sort of way an IDE or a code editor and be, in quotes, a developer or a builder or someone who's thinking about software and planning it? But then it's like, hang on, I'll just go ahead and write this for you and commit it back to this repository. I'm like, what? Okay, do it. You know, that's a kind of a cool role. Is that a version of what you're doing with Kilo in the mobile app? Yeah, for sure. And that's available on our website, too. It's called App Builder, and it's more of the replet experience where you prompt what you want, and it starts coding that.

1:06:42And because we have these cloud agents, which are really the back end of that are Cloudflare containers, because we have that, we can also do code reviews. So as soon as you connect your GitHub or your GitLab, you can just say, hey, from now on, all the code that was written automatically kick off a review for that as well. you can already configure Kilo to focus on certain aspects be less strict more strict etc I think that just gives us more of a reason to always be working in a way it's like in the new knowledge worker world and it's like hey what are you doing over there well I'm not scrolling TikTok I'm I'm actually writing software right now but you're on your mobile device that's just an iPhone right yep no i'm knee deep in a problem and i'm i'm fleshed out a spec or i'm you know whatever you know like that's kind of wild to think that from this mobile device we could just be on the subway or at a birthday party and we're bored and working yeah i think i think these are your co-workers the most natural way i interact with my co-workers is either a video call or slack and we're like we're going to launch a slack integration in no hopefully this month and otherwise next month because that's that's the way i interact with a co-worker and that's the way i want to interact with an agent too so i think collaborating with agents is going to look a bit little bit less like this big monitor with an ide on it and more like slack on your mobile phone yeah think mode i said the term earlier polymath would you consider yourself a a polymath said well since this year at least i do two things but you're poly do a math maybe but i look i'm no i'm no call us and brother i'm no casey handma i uh i i get by i certainly have a broad set of interests which helps selling composter syndrome right there like you don't want to call yourself a polymath but you're a polymath he'll let us say it but he's not gonna say about himself yeah that's fair do you have any thoughts uh i'm thinking kind of like uh given your history with git lab your entire career arc uh even through a crisis in your life you've had the chance to mentor lead design the most effective culture take company to ipo live the American dream, have an amazing marriage of 25 years.

1:09:18Congratulations again. Something as simple as the hope for the future of developers. Can you weigh in or do you have any thoughts at all about the, I hear this idea of this come back to like, there was a lot of people let go, a lot of junior developers let go. And here you just have Matt Garman, CEO of AWS, saying that junior developers, it's stupid, don't replace them with AI. Don't do that. Do you have any outlook or any hope for the future of being a software developer and what that might look like? Look, I'm a very lazy person. I don't like tedious things. And although programming seemed interesting to me, I read some of the code and I'm like, standard IO?

1:10:04I'm not going to write code that way. that seems super boring so i never got into programming until i saw ruby and i'm like wow this is this is beautiful this is the opposite of tedious this is beautiful and it's efficient with my time and i i love this interface and i i think agentic development is another step towards this is no longer tedious i could just have an idea in my brain of how something should look how should something should work and I can just write that down or even use voice mode in kilo and it will it will get done it it's amazing like it's never been a better time to to create software because we can do so much more so much quicker and and it doesn't have to take you 10 years anymore you don't have to study computer science you don't have to solve these lead coding problems anymore.

1:11:02You can just make it yourself without any other human helping you. It's incredible. I agree. It is a fun time to be a developer. And the way I look at it or the way I think about it is like the state of play. There's studies on flow. Obviously, you can go back to that. It's neuroscience, basically. The state of play is where we learn and have the most fun and it feels like playfulness. It feels fun to do, Even if it's challenging, arduous in some cases, maybe there's a learning curve, you know, there's a research phase. You got to get caught up on, you know, how an API or CLI works or whatever.

1:11:38You got to learn things you didn't know beforehand. And because I think there's a level of learning in all of this, even if the AI knows a lot, I think you should still know just as much as well, or at least try to, or strive to have understanding. It's kind of wild to be in that space where it's the state of play. It feels like very playful. Yeah. For me, a state of flow is where I don't go off and check Hector News and Reddit on the side because I'm getting bored or I have to wait. And I think 2026 will be the year of the parallel agents. And it's like the spinning plate act where you have all these agents up in the air, all these spinning plates, and you continually have to kind of shake one of them to keep them all up in the air.

1:12:21you never have to be bored again or wait for them. And I think that new balance will be like, I don't know, balancing on a surfboard or something like that where you also have to focus and you don't have to. You mentioned starting 30 companies. I'd imagine you have a lot of opportunities available. Do you have a place where people can go? We have a large audience probably listening, potentially those who are chomping at the bit for either new opportunities or a opportunity or their first opportunity or change because of just new interests or new things that just are grabbing them? Are you hiring across these 30 companies?

1:13:03What do you personally need for new talent in your enterprises? Yeah, if they're listening to this podcast, they probably like the tech companies more than the biotech companies. So OpenCore Ventures has a portfolio on their website. And I think companies always need people who can get things done themselves and are able to go after something by themselves and get it done, get it over the finish line. One of the post hoc founders wrote a great article about stop collaboration. like there's there's a lot of because you now have a team of AIs reporting to you you shouldn't also be kind of trying to partner up as much with other humans like you you have all the ways to make it happen in order to go fast collaboration should never get in the way from making individual progress it should never delay kind of trying to get something over the finish line yourself it's great if people have suggestions and great if you ask for uh if you ask for feedback but but never stop never stop the progress and never delay because you have to coordinate with someone else just use your best judgment and get it over the finish line and i think for for people who are effective by themselves the the world's your oyster well said anything else sid you want to talk about with us or make sure we mention about kilo or anything else that's on your plate that you want our listeners to know before we let you go?

1:14:45I think we, we touched on a lot. This was super fun. Thanks guys. It's always fun, man. It's been, it's been too long. We use this each other more often. I'm glad you're, you're out there doing your thing. You've crossed the chasm it seems of your cancer situation. Obviously you're still out there hunting it. So I assume the treatments will continue. The research will continue and the hunting will continue. Hopefully that, that vaccine or the mRNA treatment you're going to take, 50-50 chance. Hopefully it lands on heads and you can be free from this. But it seems like you're not just surviving, but also thriving, at least from what we can tell.

1:15:20Yeah, for sure. With your many businesses and all your interests. So it's pretty cool. It's been great. And I'll settle for this as long as I'm having a ton of fun pushing all of this forward. And yeah, it was a bit hard to make the time when I was full-time CEO. That's a big job with GitLab and I have a little bit more flexibility in my schedule. So yeah, to be on the show again soon. Absolutely. Sid, always welcome back. It's good seeing you. Thank you so much for sharing your story and sharing your time. Thank you too. Bye.

1:15:54All right. This has been our first interview of 2026. We hope you enjoyed it. Who else should we talk to on the pod this year? And what should we talk about? Did you know we have a request form on the website? we do head to changelog.com slash request and tell us what you want to hear we want to hear from you big thanks to our partners at fly.io and to our beat freaking residents that's breakmaster cylinder for all of our dope beats and thanks to you for listening we appreciate you that is all for now but we'll be back in your ear holes with our old friend matt ryer and his guitar on changelog and friends on friday bye y 'all

1:16:41Thank you.

1:17:15Game on!