It's a renaissance woman's world (Friends)

29:58Namespace.so.

30:04AI data centers in space. Your thoughts. I mean, I think there's so much. Yes, I say yes to that. And then some because so I think like being new to aerospace, right? So I've only been in this industry, like just just under two years now. And holy moly, I didn't realize how big of an industry space was. You know, of course, like, as you can imagine, like being in this, I can't talk about all of our customers, right? I can talk about origin, because it's public. But like, I didn't know there were as many space companies as there are. Like, you know, and, you know, I didn't realize how big of an industry this is because you're just thinking like, oh, it's like NASA sending up like a rocket every 10 years.

30:45Like, no, literally like, you know, space cargo, satellites, you name it. Like there's so much back and forth traffic like that goes up and down. And so I think that's been I mean, it's just what there's just so much to explore, both in terms of like humanity's like resourcing needs and energy needs. And, you know, I say, yes, like, let's go cannibalize another planet that doesn't have life on it yet. Like, but also like, let's not do something crazy. Like, I don't know, like throw off accesses and like, you know, put this little universe into like another tailspin. Right. So like, let's tread carefully, but I'm, but I'm for it.

31:24I'm for it. Yes. Okay. I wonder how plausible that is. We can actually affect space. It's just so. if it can be done we will find a way i mean like i really i agree with that but then i also think like gosh it is so far from here to the moon alone let alone to the next celestial body mars you know different planets uh an astro we're trying to mine who knows but like could we really affect space in any meaningful way i think we're more likely to affect earth from space you know just like low earth orbit and somehow throw off our gravitational pull or something oh yeah yeah yeah or even like we talked about that before like shadows like could there be enough satellites in space to create shadows on earth i mean one day when they're there one day there could be right but i'd say like yeah i mean first of all the number of countries that are also getting into space is like fascinating like india is like what the one to watch like they have like a crazy space programs and space startups and oh my god yes what are they up to they're doing a lot they're doing like for example give you an example of like a commercial space venture that's happening outside you know like india india india led um it's in agriculture where um they are basically looking at like heat maps and carbon and basically gases that are being released and like temperature fluctuations of places where there's vegetation grown.

32:57And basically based on that, they're able to do all kinds of analytics and predictive markets for commodities and give that data to farmers. That's a very interesting use case. And we can put the link to that company in the show notes as well for people to look at. But there's a lot of different opportunities popping up with space. And in particular, like it's, you know, people, it's not just like, obviously it's, it's to do with operations back home. Right. It's, it's to do with like, it always connects back to earth. Right. And so, um, yeah. So I think it's, it's interesting how, um, I don't know, human, human, I'm just, humans are humanity and like humans.

33:41I mean, like we are, we are freaking cool. Can I just, I mean, I mean, we really, we poo poo so much about everything that's going wrong in the world. And we don't really focus enough on like all the incredible innovation that's also happening at the same time, you know, and it's not, I'm not just talking about AI bros. Like I'm talking about like just real, just ingenious stuff that's happening day to day, you know? Right. It's cool. Look how far we've come. It is cool. Building rockets and going to the moon. I mean, my goodness, you know? We were like in caves just what, you know, several thousand years ago.

34:21Recently, we talked with these folks from Zipline. They're doing autonomous drone deliveries. Started off with medical needs and blood transfusions in Africa. And now it's like they're going to deliver your your happy meal to your house. And it's just it's really cool. I mean, the tech is cool. The use cases. I mean, there are concerns, of course, around noise and like you want things zipping around in low earth orbit but just low earth atmosphere all day long but it's all that kind of stuff but it is like the ingenuity and not just the creative aspect of humanity but our ability to like see it through to a product or a conclusion i it is freaking cool you're right yeah uh yeah incredibly cool um just vacuuming up moon dust you know i mean and to use moon dust as a battery source i mean that's kind of don't understand it how does that how does that work what's the chemistry there I mean, you know, it's like, you know, what do you use like to make warmth on earth?

35:18You're like, cut the trees, collect, collect the wood. Right. And so, you know, it's the same idea. You're just like, you know, same kind of idea, but obviously a lot more science. And that's not, you know, I just write the software, man. All right. higher than even your pay grade there i think what's also been really humbling jared is like the i've just kind of fallen in love with airspace because of just the complexity of it all right like it takes so many disciplines to like make a rocket and or make a plane um like it's it's it's a humbling amount of disciplines and it's a humbling amount of skills that like is required to like make this thing, you know?

36:01And we are just one flavor of the many flavors of engineers that are part of this process. And I think like, that's also just been very humbling, you know? And I mean, aerospace is just, it's such a romantic industry in the sense that like, there's so much romance around like flying, you know, and flying fast and like exploring the sky And like, you know, it's like this God-like thing that humans have been able to do. And if you really think about it, like it's really quite frankly, like one of the greatest things that we've also been able to do as people. Right. So, so yeah. So I don't know. It's, it's, it's, it's very inspiring to be like a small part of that journey now.

36:44So. Space is cool. Space is the coolest. Do you think about the very, very big versus the very, very small in, in your job day to day? Can you say more on that? Like, you mean like the big picture versus? Yeah, like the very, very big is like space, right? You got celestial bodies, you got the sun, right? And then the very, very small. So we have physics on two different scales or at least known physics, right? And then physics totally changes from a very, very big version of it to a very, very small. And very, very small is like atoms, right? Nucleus, you know, particles, things like that. And so like a whole different game when you think about tethered particles to each other at the subatomic level.

37:24And like that to me is just so wild to think about because somehow that plays a role in your role in the very, very big because you have particular materials that you use for certain properties and certain reasons because they sustain a certain amount of heat or density to sustain travel and space. and so you really have to think about the very very small to anticipate or even prepare for the very very big yeah yeah oh and that's such a that's i wish i had the luxury of being able to like do that kind of like big picture thinking but i think i can only kind of really do that on a podcast or occasionally and like you know in like a presentation meeting yeah really yeah because on the day-to-day yeah i'm thinking about like the minute details of like you know building software, distributed software, and all these different constraints, and maintaining contracts, and doing migrations.

38:17That's what I'm thinking about day-to-day. Day-to-day, our work is very inwardly focused. So yeah, I think that's also, you know, I mean, yeah, the cool thing about building a platform is you're building a platform. You're not building just a tool for this one use case. So I think like, yeah, day to day, like my head is usually around like that. And, and then just a lot of resourcing management, right? Like always kind of thinking about like, who would be the best person to pick this thing up or who would be the best person to solve this? And like, how do I leverage my principal engineer to do this other thing?

38:51How do I leverage my other principal engineer to do this other prop, you know? And so it's like always like, it's, it's, it's this constant like shifting of resources in order to kind of like optimize your path to getting said thing done right but that like then that that said thing done it's like multiplied right it's on a day-to-day i'm like seven or ten things i'm trying to get done in a day or you know um seven and ten meetings stacked on each other so give it probably is the case give us a sneak peek and you know first q1 2026 a small but mighty software startup accomplishing small things we're technically not a startup anymore because of our revenue.

39:31We're like a scale up now, but scale up. Yeah. That was almost worse than calling you an animal at the time. You just called me a startup. How dare you? No more. We're growing. None of these names. I'm not going to call any more names. Accomplishing software today in a team. Tools, techniques, processes. Is it agile? Is it not? Is it Jira? Is it pivotal? Like give us all the nitty gritty because you're like in the details daily using tools, managing people, trying to like corral a bunch of smart people to do something bigger than they can do alone. Give us all the nuts and bolts. Yeah, for sure.

40:14I mean, you know, I mean, I I'd say like, you know, this is where like making the sausage is kind of like boring in the sense that there's nothing. I feel like everyone's doing the same thing across companies just in different ways. So I think for us, we're somewhat light on process where it doesn't matter and we're not so light on process where it does matter, as you can imagine. But I think for me, we're not really dictatorial around agile or ceremonies or whatever. It's like do what's productive and communicate. And so yes, Jira, unfortunately, I would love to be on Bivital. I think it's something we are considering in the future.

40:58But Jira, lots of Jira, lots of spreadsheets, lots of time road mapping. I've talked about this before on other podcasts, but as a lead, you're splitting your time between the future, the present, and the past. like the past because you're kind of cleaning up tech debt and there's old bills that you need to pay right down on your code base and processes and docs or whatever else, other gaps. And then the present because that's kind of the day-to-day and then the future and as a lead, I spend a lot of my time in the future because I'm in the expedition ahead of the team kind of exploring new grounds, finding like, okay, yeah, this looks good.

41:41We can start making camp here. you know like that's like that's me day to day but yeah I'm doing um you know really for me it's a lot of planning a lot of like um design work like I'm obviously you know being we're kind of still a small enough company where you know even in a leadership role you're you know very technical and hands-on um and I really hope that I never have to change that about myself um you know because you know I think it's really important to be able to do the work of the people that you are leading because if not you like are completely out of touch and like you know all kinds of bad things happen uh like you also have no empathy for their problems and all of that and so so yeah so just a lot of architecture a lot of design code reviews um you know unblocking folks like yeah i mean it's you know i think what i'm really most excited about these days jared is just teams like you know uh you know the power of teams is like really becoming apparent to me because like i I figured out, wow, how do I just enable people to do their best work?

42:42And I feel like I've kind of found the secret sauce of at least it's working for me right now and my company. And it's just really incredible to see people just kind of go and the kind of results that you see when people are just kind of unshackled and unburdened and where people feel like they have agency and when people feel like they're engaged and they care. You know, and so so in that sense, like I'm having a lot of fun with teams right now. And, you know, and the muscle that I'm, you know, always going to be trying to grow is, you know, how to be, you know, how to continually improve my leadership with teams.

43:21Right. Because I think for me, it's, you know, I'm now at this new mastery level where I'm accountable and responsible for the work of multiple teams. I've done that before as a principal engineer, but I was not accountable. accountable. I was responsible and now I'm responsible and accountable. And so it's like a whole, how's that different? Exactly. Spill it out for me as if I'm like 10, not five, but give me 10. Okay. Yeah. I mean, so I think it's one thing to like, I'm the person that has to like, go to executive leadership meetings and present like our roadmap or present like, here's what we were delivered or here's what we weren't able to deliver and why.

44:05Right. And so at the end of the day, like it's on me to answer to like why this is either good, bad, didn't ship, shipped late, you know, whatever, whatever, right. Whatever it is. And so I think that's the difference, you know, versus kind of a principal engineer. I would never, for me anyway, as a leader, I would never, ever put any of that on an IC. Like anything that goes well is for the team to own and celebrate, right? Anything that doesn't go well is like bubbles up and that's on leadership. Like that's always, failure always goes up. Legit of the wrong direction kind of thing. Yeah, exactly.

44:42Exactly. And so I think in that sense, like it's very humbling and it's a responsibility I take very, very seriously. um I'm like enjoying it and um and yeah learning a ton you know so there's like there's so much to learn and I think like maybe maybe the thing that I'm like a little worried about these days is that like we use AI so much like I use it you know in different capacities during my day um you know I need to find time to learn the old way because I feel like AI is yes it's great at like upskilling quickly on something new, but I feel like I don't have the time, especially as a busy manager now, like to like do that deep mastery of something.

45:30Right. And like, and, you know, you master something through like, you know, suffering a little, burning yourself a little, things like that, you know? Um, and so I, I feel like mastery is kind of like a little bit of a dying art, you know, uh, in general. So like, um, so I want to figure out like, you know, I think I want to maybe pick one thing, a quarter or one thing every six months to try to really deeply master. Um, you know, whether that's like Terraform or I don't know, like MSI installer, like, I don't know, like anything and just pick, pick something, um, you know, something technical to like deeply master because I feel like that's just yeah I feel like AI is like kind of atrophying my skill level there like I feel like I'm not spending a lot of time mastering anything anymore have you heard the term polymath yet in your life or aspire to be a polymath no I haven't what's that so this is a new term to me in the last six months a polymath this is based on the dictionary a polymath is an individual with deep recognized expertise across multiple often diverse fields using this broad knowledge to solve complex problems and drive innovation.

46:48Often like connecting dots from like, you know, in Silicon Valley, one of the, one of the VCs was like, you know what? Burger King uses sesame seeds. I'm going to invest in sesame seeds because there's going to be a cicada issue in X, Y, and Z where, where these sesame seeds are done. And he made a lot of money. That's maybe, might be a polymath potentially, but where you have the ability to connect dots from different disparate places and apply them. But it really is around this idea of Renaissance person, which I think in the pre-call you mentioned to Jared. And then this idea of deep mastery, unlike dabblers, true polymaths achieve high level proficiency at three or more fields.

47:26Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. Yeah. And honestly, like, so it's really interesting that you say that because I'm like, I feel like being at a smaller company that like punches so like, like, you know, like all of our customers are like, you know, like, I don't know, 100 X bigger than us, for example. Um, and so we really punch up our way, you know, and I think as a result of that, I think everyone at Astari is like very good at more than one thing, right? There's very few people at the company that are just doing one type of thing. And so, um, so I think it's been really interesting for me as like a cross-functional leader as well, right?

48:04Because like, I feel like I'm doing product work and I'm doing kind of like icy principal engineering work and I'm doing like manager work and I'm sometimes I'm doing QA. Sometimes, you know, like, I feel like there's a lot of, um, like I stretch around a lot and I think that that's also just, I don't know, I feel there's, there's something about that. That's also very good for your soul. Um, and when you're in tech, um, especially because I think it builds a lot of empathy for other people that you have, you know, like other jobs, other, you know, your colleagues, like you have a better understanding of like what their expectations are of you and, you know, what you, if you know, if you were sitting across their, you know, the aisle, what you would want, right?

48:47And so, I don't know, I think it's good to have a little bit of flexibility. I think in many ways that feels like the opposite of what's commonly found in enterprise where people are so kind of like pegged into just like their little square box you know and they have to be as creative as they can in their little square box all you can do is that one thing and you're that one thing that's it yeah yeah and that's why nobody wants to be enterprise guy everybody wants to be like startup bro because startup bro's like fun and gets to do all the things and it's like yeah man like i'm doing this and that totally whereas enterprise guy.

49:22Yeah. Enterprise guy is always feels a little soul crushed, you know, poor enterprise guy. But, um, but no, so my hope is please let's not, you know, like that's, you know, yeah, it's just, as you grow, you never know like how things are going to change. And so I'm like, I hope we can preserve that part of our culture. Cause I think it's really special for people to be able to do, um, not necessarily have more than one job per se, but to be able to do more than one thing does that make sense i like it personally i mean i think my brain thrives on novel problems absolutely same which is both a good thing and a bad thing it's totally a curse in a lot of cases and totally a blessing in others where i you know like you you give me a brand new problem it's not even my problem okay it's i don't even benefit from this thing my brain is like must solve this problem okay my brain will let it go and it's not a good thing in some cases but i get to help people along the way which is always a blessing to me and uh you know they're like thank you for solving my problem i didn't even know that anybody would come by and help me even think about this or care you know but my brain really thrives in brand new novel problems and then it gets really tired of like long-term execution like phase 10 my brain is not yeah you're like no more yeah the the rewards aren't high enough yeah my brain's like no there's no dopamine there adam okay you gotta you gotta bail out okay yeah yeah not enough dopamine at at phase 10 it's all diluted takes reps and and discipline to not do that though yeah you're early stage guy you're early stage guy you know best there honestly i really you know i think you should you should be where you thrive yeah uh in a team oriented uh fashion but definitely like i that is where i'm best applied i can work effectively in all the areas but i'm my best and most efficient processes are in the beginnings of the novel and the setting things together and that kind of thing.

51:21So I can appreciate desiring to be more polymath, more Renaissance. I aspire one day. That's amazing. And yeah, that makes sense. And honestly, like, this is the earliest stage company that I've worked for. And holy moly, I'm like, man, I hope this doesn't become a thing. You know, like, I feel like there's only so many early stage companies you can work for in your career. And so I'm just like I said, I hope this is it. But it's really fun. I mean, it's like once you know you like this space and this stage, it's a little dangerous, you know, because not every company is going to be in Astari where it's like mature people, successful product, you know, inspiring and world respected CEO.

52:08Like, you know, it's like we're, yeah, we're very unicorn. You know, it comes next after scale up, don't you? Well, enterprise.

52:20So a story won't always be, you know, what it is today either. So you never know. I know I'm just like, Oh my gosh, you know, but no, it's, it's fine. It's fine. No, I think, I think we, I think we've got many, many years of lots of, of, of fun ahead. So, um, you know, So kind of fingers crossed. But, but yeah, it's, you know, it's just, you know, I, again, and I say this with so much gratitude, really, because, you know, this is really still a very tough time in our industry. And I think on many levels, right, like, like philosophically, it's a difficult time. There's it's difficult time because there's so much change.

52:56But it's also like, really exciting because there's all this like, it's like a, to quote one of our partners, Steve Massey, he's a CEO. and founder of Syskit. We can link to it in the show notes. But he said to me the other day, it's a bad time to be a problem. And I was like, you're right. This is a bad time to be a problem. You know, lots is happening. A lot of great stuff is happening, but there's also just all this cultural churn, you know, and I think for me, one of the biggest drivers of the cultural churn is this weird idea that we've been trying to, or I think the CEOs of Anthropic have been trying to sell, which is like, you know, oh, all developer jobs are all human jobs.

53:37You know, no humans need it in six months. Like humans will have no jobs in six months. Just this ludicrous idea. That was at least nine months ago. Well, Jared and Adam, I'm trying to understand like, why are humans? I mean, like, I don't even like, you know, why do humans think that they don't need other humans? Like, I mean, ultimately, like if I'm solving a problem, it's always going to be to make another human's life better. And it's not going to, you know. And so I just this notion of like, oh, we're not going to need humans or people taking joy in the demise of software engineers or the, you know, just kind of dismissing human work.

54:16Like, you know, yeah, maybe people will be doing less menial work by all means. But I think like we'll still be people. There'll be new problems to solve, new jobs. You know, I think I sit squarely in that camp. So I don't know. So I just am saying it's a weird time, weird time, you know, so I feel like I'm in this like little happy bubble. But, you know, I'm very aware of like, you know, the festival that is like, you know, the tech industry right now, you know. So for now, I take solace in the fact that code is easy to generate, but products are hard to build. You know, it's pretty easy to like just generate some code.

54:55And, you know, and I say that as a participant in the generation of code. 100 yeah but building a product that actually is actually useful and solves a problem is it really takes a lot of taste it takes a lot of connected dots across different disciplines oh my god i know you know it's not just like oh you know claude give me x give me facebook and you get bye zuck okay you're done man like i just generated facebook okay it's done you can't do that you can't generate product that easily if you can at all i work eight to you know eight to 10 hours a day, don't work weekends. And so I know firsthand that it takes all of the things that you just said, right?

55:36I think that was also some of the thesis with Nicole Ferguson's latest book, Frictionless. Frictionless? Yeah, Frictionless. It's kind of like the follow-up to Accelerate. And so her thesis was like, if AI can spit out code in 40 seconds, why does it still take software teams months to ship software, right? And so she kind of talked about that whole thing that you're just describing. But like, yeah, I don't know. I mean, I just wish that we would, you know, it's this weird like greed factor with capitalism. Like that's like I'm a capitalist, but there's aspects of capitalism like I don't like.

56:15And this is one of them, you know, where it's this, you know, zero sum game kind of situation with resourcing and talent and humans. And I don't know, I just feel like there's like the world and there's so much more abundance like in the world than I think people make it seem, you know. And so there's kind of like, you know, scarcity is what's in their best interest, right? To make you feel like that. Correct. You know, so. Which, you know, damn them for doing so. Indeed. Indeed. But smart because, hey, that's how they make their money because, you know, that's just the way it works. So here's the thing about network security for enterprise.

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58:32Weird times. I mean, you guys are in it. You tell me, Jared, like what's happening? You know, what's the sentiment these days? Like what's the temp? Still not great. I know the ZERP days are over, but still not great. I think we're still in the wait and see holding pattern. I think we're all aware that the tools have gotten way better over the last year, even if the models haven't gotten way better. I think that's the current trend is the tooling and the ability to give tools to the models and the just really the good old fashioned software engineering that has been built up around models that are like nominally better than they were a couple of years ago.

59:17I have just really unlocked a lot of productivity and recently so much so that. I mean, a while loop and a tool and a large language model can do amazing things right now. I think we're all seeing that, but it's unlocking more productivity from smaller teams, from indie developers. But what Adam said hits the nail right on the head. I mean, you still have to be able to create, maintain, and build. Hopefully not in that order. I did it out of order, but you know what I mean? Software products, not just software. Yeah. And that is still very much, and I think will be for a while now, the playground of humans.

1:00:06Yeah, yeah. And humans need humans, guys. Can I just put that out there? Humans need humans. Stop trying to take humans out of the equation in the sense that this notion that there's going to be one person running a billion dollar company, just barf at that, okay? And also just, yeah. like it's more possible than it has ever been though right you have to admit that yeah i think it's not necessarily impossible that somebody gets there is it healthy no i mean is it possible yeah it really is possible but that person's gonna be pretty talented person they're not just

1:00:45or just stupid like at that point like you could scale right you would do it for bragging or ruthless Maybe all those things. It's a billion dollar company that runs in one time zone. Got it.

1:00:58But no, I mean, it's all good. I think I'm just a little bit bitter about all of the... oh my god there's gonna be no software engineering jobs in six months and i'm worried about like what that's done to like the pipeline they're gonna be wrong and during our industry you could do more with less but you can't there's gonna be more to do and there's you're just not going to get to the place where we're gone completely it's just not going to happen not in this lifetime uh maybe the next 10 years just because like when you can it would be stupid it would be it wouldn't make any sense to create a tool that can generate so much and then say you won't need humans because who's going to do all the generation stuff later on like even that alone and there's gonna be more software and more software all this software is for humans i mean at some point you can sort of like program the ai to do its thing in perpetual notion like a ralph loop but even then you gotta have to have a human in the loop or on the loop yeah to define the spec and to have actual value in it so i just don't see software engineers going away i see more software getting created and more engineers need to be born and grown and trained.

1:02:13And it may change. It may drastically change from what we saw as software engineering beforehand. But I think we see a groundswell of new development. I mean, it's certainly a new groundswell of open source. There's a lot more out there now. I think the shape changes. Yeah. The org shape, the team shape, those things change necessarily. Yeah. But there's just more smaller. I think there's more smaller things and less big things. We were saying before in our call today, Derek, we mentioned the piece of team size. There's the idea that, you know, back in the Getting Real book from 37 Seasons, I believe they prescribed a four person team, maybe a five person team, like four engineers, one designer or some sort of leader, I believe was their prescription.

1:02:55And then Jeff Bezos, you know, kind of coined the idea of a two pizza, a two pizza team, I believe it was, is what it was. which the idea was like four people or less uh could you consume two pieces with four people or less probably i think it's more than four people i think it's closer to six it's two pizzas well you haven't seen the way we eat here in the midwest

1:03:17yeah i don't i mean yeah i mean i'm speaking from experience here okay i'm gonna have a pizza guy i'm one person yeah multiply me by by the amount actually adam and i together are a two-piece of team it turns out you know yeah that's so funny so i think we'll see the the pizza team shrink maybe to two people yeah i i i think there's certainly a trend and there will be a trend of you know smaller teams right because i think you know but i think there will be lots of small teams right and and to your point like definitely the craft is changing you know as it should right it's I urge everyone to change along with it.

1:04:02That's very important and it's uncomfortable, but you'll be better for it. If not, there's a big need for blue-collar jobs if you're in North America. Retrain as an electrician. All kinds of need for other high-paying... which could be more lucrative in certain scenarios as well. And perhaps even a more enjoyable way to make a living. Absolutely. Certainly there will be job displacement. Things will change. But if you, if you look at Jevons paradox and you look at these things, like historically, when we've been able to do more with less, which is what these tools let us do, we can do more with less.

1:04:42Humans have never chosen less like, Oh, we can do more with less. Let's do more. And it's just always been more, more, more. And that's the, the ambition and the drive and the ingenuity of the human race is more. So we're not going to do less. We're not going to choose that. We're just going to do more, more, more, which will require more people. The more you do, the more people you need. That's what took us to the moon, right? I mean, like, we want to preserve that. But there's also just like, I don't know. I mean, I guess this is where I feel like, you know, I'm a capitalist that's like pro-regulated markets.

1:05:14I mean, and obviously also quite frankly, like, I think, you know, any real capitalist would be pro-regulated markets and you know this this kind of like flavor of extreme capitalism that we're in right now is very odd but um you know there needs to be checks and balances and so i think it's you know for me what's lacking in the tech industry right now is just like examples of good leadership like at mass right like certainly pockets of leadership at companies and whatever else but just as an industry like who we all like looking up to right now that's like doing it right like Like, you know, I'm not looking to like any one particular company or leader that's like, you know, just like this, you know, very inspiring.

1:05:57Like there's this kind of like FOMO, follow each other, like culture that's just very common with, you know, with tech that like, you know, I just, I don't know. I'm curious to hear if you all can think of like inspirational leaders that we have right now. What do you know about this paradox you mentioned, Jared? How much deeper can you go on this? You're probably looking at the Wikipedia entry right now, so go ahead. Oh, no, I'm not. Oh, you're not. Well, I can tell you the definition of it. I just want to thought experiment a little bit because this is really, this is what we've been talking about today pretty much, but just not with this really cool term, Jevons Paradox.

1:06:33That's a good thing to say. I think it's cool. I can tell you what it is if you want me to. Let me do that. Yeah, for sure. The Jevons Paradox occurs when technological advancements increase the efficiency with which a resource is used, but the resulting lower cost of consumption causes total demand for that resources to rise rather than fall. And one of the examples it gave was LED lights. As lighting, LED lights became more efficient and cheaper, but people tend to light their homes more extensively now and for longer periods. So that's one obvious example. I think we're going to see that with software because now it's a lot easier to build bespoke software in scenarios where it was just inefficient in terms of economics and inefficient in terms of team size, pizza team size, you're going to see more and more bespoke software become plausible.

1:07:22And not that SaaS is dead or dying, but you won't only apply SaaS to a problem because SaaS has largely been the only funded, possible, team-worthy, secure, FIPS, you name it, applied. But now maybe you can do it in a bespoke manner where you just wouldn't do it before because now you can and it can actually fit the problem better that's what i wonder about this is like i never heard this paradox before this totally seems to apply on this is we'll see you know the cost go down to produce the code but the product still takes a lot of effort but the code is easier to get to now you just can play more people to the code problem you got more bespoke products out there that solve software problems yeah absolutely and then you also have a lot more people who don't know anything about software writing software like then you have a whole cottage industry of people patching security holes for vibe coded apps right like you know i definitely would buy money in some security companies or like fix it companies if i you know i invite that though i mean i like i want some vibe cutters out there right i invite it's like i mean we can't be against that because as an industry we've been like welcome the newcomer for a decade right and there's been like in wars and infighting and conference like Like, get new people here, sponsor them to come.

1:08:38Like, it's the same thing. It's literally the same thing. It's like vibe coders who were never invited now have an invitation. Unfettered, you can't stop me, and they're making things. And just because they're not smart, like we have been smart, we've been here for 20 years or more, it's like, well, you can't downplay that. That's just a new – it's a newbie. We have to embrace the newbie and find ways for them to become more advanced in thinking and understand engineering around software and welcome them and not, like, downplay the vibe coder. Like, I think that's just, just generally not good for us to do.

1:09:10Yeah. I, I, I think you're right. I am eager to kind of see how we as a community make space for, for, for I think that person, right. Like that persona. I mean, the challenge is that, that there, there's not necessarily an interest in like going deeper into the craft. Right. And then so like, where, you know, where do you draw the line for someone like, I don't know, I guess maybe it's that like, we need to re-examine the word like builder. Like, what does it mean? Like, are you like, you know, a builder that also like goes, you know, are you like builder to the foundation or are you just builder to surface?

1:09:50Right. Like I feel like vibe coders are just like their surface level, surface level builders, but builders nonetheless now. Right. Yeah. And so I think we're, we're kind of just a more expanded, like definition of builder. I think the successful vibe coder becomes a engineer or they are no longer successful. Like as the thing that they vibe coded becomes viable and useful, they either find a way to acquire those skills or hire an engineer to work with them or whatever it is. Or that thing just goes away and doesn't actually survive. So I feel like there might be some survival of the fittest mechanism that just kind of takes care of that problem.

1:10:27And yeah, I mean, all of the stupid demos people post online to like get the clicks or whatever, they can just have their phone and get their clicks. And they're either going to become serious about it or they're going to get hacked and then it's going to be a disaster for them or, you know. So there might just be like, that problem might just work itself out. I agree with that 100%. I think it will work itself out. Yeah. I'm curious to see how that plays out for sure. Well, there's only so long you can build on quicksand, right? If you build something on quicksand, which is kind of like lab coding.

1:10:56If you build on quicksand, it's going to topple or you sell it before it topples and the next person gets the topple. It's like, you know, somebody else is holding the bag. You think people ideas, Adam, is that what's going on? Well, I think it's happening, right? You see somebody build something, innovate so fast, create this groundswell. Some investor or some team of private equity wants to get in. They're hungry. They're greedy. So greed, I mean, that's sort of like the falls most downfalls. It's like you're going to get greedy. maybe acquire something that you think is going up. Meanwhile, the person's a Vibe Coder.

1:11:27And it's not that's a bad pejorative to apply to somebody. It's just like, well, it may not be as secure as it should be. It may not have the thought process as it should be. And it may be built on quicksand more so than it is on Insolo Foundation. So I think it's more likely a Vibe Coded app is insecure than it may be secure. But a year from now, this may not age very well because Vibe Coding, You may actually have models that sustain vibe coders. Like, hey, I know you're not that smart. I know you want this thing. And I'm going to give you security for free. And maybe that's where Anthropic takes us or whoever takes us.

1:12:02In a year from now, that may not be true. That would be very good for the health of the internet if LLM's kind of like, yeah. But that's also kind of somewhat scary, though, because then they're doing more than, I mean, they kind of already do more than what you tell them to do. But you know what I mean? They're taking creative liberties that are like, you know. Yeah. Let me share this arc with you. This is kind of fascinating to me. Early 25, we're in 26 now, if you didn't know. Early 2025, it was generally taboo to say that you were basically not possible because the models weren't that great.

1:12:39But you weren't really saying that a majority of your code was written by AI. It was generally taboo to say that. by mid-year 2025, it was like some of my code is being written by AI or a lot of it is being written by AI. Now you have, you know, well-respected, well-capable engineers in the end of the year, now going into this year saying all of my code, not only is it written by AI, I don't even look at it anymore. Like in a year's time, you have that leap of change from societal acceptance and willingness to even say that but weren't there like a bunch of windows bugs with the latest version of windows like basically like everything was more like everything was broken like like i mean isn't it already broken i mean i'm just i'm just saying like what i'm saying is that like this attitude of not even going to look look at it is kind of scary because like like you know we've talked about this before right like there's a throughput problem with generating more code.

1:13:42Developers' definition of done is when they're done coding. But no, no, no, no, no. Somebody needs to code review your code, or maybe more than one person even. And then it needs to get tested. Someone needs to verify that it does the thing. It needs to get deployed. It needs to not break things. It needs to co-mingle and live with other code. And so this idea that you kind of need humans in the loop for many of those things. You certainly can employ AI agents for a lot of that nowadays too. However, where's your human in the loop that's verifying quality, given that we know these things very often go off the rails?

1:14:22For a real production code base, someone saying that they don't even review or look at things generated by AI, I'm sorry, maybe I'm going to be uncool. Say it, go ahead, say it. I wouldn't hire that person. to contribute to a production code base. Really? Yeah. I mean, it's one thing for your side projects, but yeah, no, you need it. You need to like, you know, you need, you need like who's, yeah, I am, I am still. In your industry for sure, right? You've got physical objects being created, money being wasted when it's wrong, lives at stake when it's in the sky. Totally makes sense in your industry.

1:15:03But then you have like software, straight up only software products being created. and they're solving a brand new novel problem. And I don't even have a brand in mind when I think about this, but I can imagine the desire to not look at your code anymore because you want to just drink the Kool-Aid and say, trust the model. Trust the model, sure. Just in time, do this. And maybe once or twice you get a good result and you don't get bitten. And if you're solving an inconsequential problem where it's not table stakes or labs are at stake, Like, you know, maybe you get a calculation wrong or maybe an email doesn't get delivered.

1:15:41Maybe that could be an issue, too, because like maybe that's a money email or something like that. But that's aside from the point where there's not lives at stake. I can see someone pushing the boundaries. And I kind of welcome that, too, because you want some people who are willing to go out and recon, right? Go out into the potential danger zone and bring back the potential good or bad things. and they may be the ones who are just the early testers of this crazy idea that we eventually all just subscribe to yeah not tomorrow but maybe two or three years from now no i i hear that i and i think that's the beauty of like the world in the sense that like we all work on different types of problems with different constraints and different like levels of risk right to your point so yeah i say go for it um obviously i can't take that risk but i think like you know i hope maybe one day we can like I work at a very AI forward company um like and so but I I am a very striking the balance yeah I'm personally very conservative with my risk tolerance so well I can I can speak to Adam's arc because I kind of lived that arc to a certain extent now this is all personal side projects or like low stakes code but I experienced because we continually try these things over time my own response to AI generated code going from like, this is terrible.

1:17:03And then later being like, this is not great. It's, it offends me, but I understand that this would also work. I would never write this to being like, actually, that's something that I would write to being like, actually, that's a little bit better than I would have thought of it. That's a good idea. And then you watch it generate long enough and you're like, nine times out of 10, it's like, darn near perfect. And then eventually you're just like, why am I even looking at it? Like it's just this like a frog boiling in the water over the course of a couple of years. I still look at it. I still talk to the thing and say, no, no, no, no, let's not do it that way.

1:17:39Let's do it this way. But there's a lot of guidance that you're having to do as an experienced engineer. That's the thing. I'm super involved in it. I'm still super involved in it, but I trust it way more than I used to just because of the exposure, you know, just continually using it as they improve. Yeah, no, no. Listen, this is like a brave new world. I'm not against the usage here. It's more just around for production code. Serious business. Yeah, just making sure that there's a sanity check on that patch. That's all. Totally. Just saying. you know because then there's also just like a lot of really interesting stuff popping up now around like all this kind of like prompt injection where you know it looks the same to your naked eye but it doesn't because like this is like a special character that's you know this and that and like i think that's actually the thing that we should be worried about a lot more um because like that that's something anybody like that can like can you get this from stack overflow those prompts Yeah, how are you going to get injected on this prompt?

1:18:48Oh, no, no, no. People like just copying. Oh, prompt compiers? That's like worse than. No, no, no, no, no. People copying output that's been generated by an LLNM. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Be careful with that copy paste, folks. Yeah, yeah. Copy paste is like, yeah. So you've got to like kind of sanitize all that. And the fact that like you can have like, you can do prompt injection like with the OpenAI browser, right? Like it's so easy to do prompt injection on there. like with, you know, like with an image. Are you running AI browsers yet? Oh, hell no. Me neither. I do not want an AI in my browser. I know lots of people do.

1:19:25Same. I don't. I'm just like. You guys are thinking about it wrong. I'll tell you you're thinking about it wrong. Okay. Adam's going to open our eyes. Let me, let me school you guys. Okay. Okay. Okay. So your personal browsing, my personal browsing, I'm with Mel. Oh, hell no. Now when I'm researching something, something that I'm trying to learn or recon or go get information oh hell yes well let it go read web pages for you is that what you mean yes yes sure browse the web on my behalf and pull back information please 100 so yes in that case ai browser all the way give me more um but you know my daily driver in safari reading article with ai no no yeah it's not my intention i i still want to be i still want that liberty to read what I want to read okay you want an unfiltered view of the universe yeah I don't need AI everywhere with me like that yeah exactly you know that's old school web people just reading web pages you know like who does that Lady Bird will keep us uh in in intact Lady Bird will probably not I assume this I haven't even actually investigated this but I assume Lady Bird will not add AI to oh the browser yeah yeah that one's gonna be that's a pure play I think they'll resist it for as long as he possibly can, if at all.

1:20:41Ladybird's going to stay pure. I think it's just going to render websites and get out of your way. So I think we'll always, if we always have a pure browser, we're good to go. But I mean, the way I synthesize information is not with an AI with me at all times. I have some version of an AI with me, you know, in close proximity, but I'm not leaning on, I certainly don't lean on AI to think for me. I do synthesize a lot of information though i do and in close proximity sounded like you know you have like a you have like um ai girlfriend in your pillow you know that's what it sounds i mean i got the phone right here the phone has clawed on it i mean like always within 10 feet okay ai where you at hello i'm not gonna go within 10 feet without an ai no ai is not nearby they're not listening oh my god i'm i'm uh yeah i i have a i'm i'm i'm recovering from a cold and so i have like a very like i don't know I've been like, what's, what's that like raspy laugh right now?

1:21:33And you're just like, it's making me want to cough. Yeah. I sound like I'm a, I've been smoking for 40 years. That's what it sounds like, you know, I'm like, perfect for radio. You know, perfect for radio. Yeah. Perfect. Yeah. I would say most AI things you think you have a reaction to, I would pause, take a step back and think of it from a different perspective because we're taking our first thought is personal. our first thought is almost even offensive or offended because we are the developers and engineers that are getting quote unquote replaced. I say nay to that. And I think that we just need to rethink how we leverage this brand new tool in a whole new way.

1:22:18And there's a lot of people who are naysayers about it and they're just not thinking of it right. And you got to just reframe your thinking about it. Yeah, I mean, I'm all for AI use like 120%. I think for me, it's about like, use it safely. Um, and like, you know, safety comes like, like there's many flavors of it. Right. Like I personally fall into the camp of like, no AI for kids, you know, um, specifically because, you know, we don't really have, um, good guardrails in place for a lot of things right now. And so, you know, adults without mental health issues, like that's like ideal target audience for AI, um, you know, uh, because It's really, you know, yeah, yeah, no kids.

1:23:01And then, you know, if you're using it for anything important, like, you know, financial transactions or, you know, just important things, just, you know, use it. Just, yeah, have a human in the loop verifying stuff. Like, that's it, right? So for me, it's just about, like, be smart, right? Here's an idea for you on these things, too. What if you wrote a program to verify the program? So rather than just writing tests in your integration, for example, What if you actually said, okay, let me assume my tool is deployed. Let me actually write a program that acts as I would. I'm going to program it with my intellect and how I would think about it.

1:23:38And it's going to automate future Adam or future Adams to test this thing. Like you got to reframe the way you're thinking about it. You really do. 100%. Actually, that's kind of the way I prompt now. I always ask AI to write the software for the thing that I like. like if i'm trying to do analysis for something or whatever i always actually have it right software and tests so that i like know what's changed um so just like 100 agreed yeah test passing is table stakes having a test harness external from the actual application is not tables it's now table stakes now it's table stakes yeah yeah now it's table stakes but like you know that's how we have to think about it and it's darn near free that's the best part about it It is free, Jared.

1:24:20I mean, it's so low cost. It's basically free. That's why everything is kind of cool. It's like, yeah, might as well. Remember how hard it used to be to write tests? Yes. Because most of the time, you know, I hate to say it, but you're like codes a little shitty and not well isolated. So it's really hard to write good unit tests. And then you're like, oh, you know, like I have no idea what you're talking about. It's really hard for me. How do you do dependency injection? you know dependency injection test remember that remember that nightmare god i haven't mocking and stubbing and should i even mock anyways i'm not supposed to mock but i kind of have to because you spend a whole day mocking you spend a whole day writing mocks and then you go read a blog post from guy some guy who says you should never write a mock and you're like oh yeah oh my gosh i'm i was a bigger fan of like just setting up like an intercept server and then leveraging spies and more so than mocks.

1:25:17So your mock is at the network layer. That's kind of nice. I want to hear more about these spies, man. These spies and mocks. Oh yeah, spies are the best. Spies are like, you're spying on a function or during a runtime and so you can see what parameters it was called with and was it called? How many times was it called? So it's pretty cool. Interesting. Yeah, I feel like there's going to be a whole generation of engineers that are just never going to have to, they probably won't even know what a spy is. And they shouldn't have to. Exactly, to your point, they should not have to. We've moved on to greener patches.

1:26:04Well, it's kind of like the classic old man yells at cloud paradox is like, I suffered, therefore you should have to suffer. Like that's kind of the mindset. I get it because there's times where I'm like, you know what? We used to have to write our tests. I think that's what's keeping minimum wage down in the United States. That might be a multivariate factor. There might be more than one factor there. Exactly. I agree. So where do we go from here? You guys have deployed a lot of cool stuff inside of, is it iStory? iStory. iStory. iStory, yeah. iStory. You've got Go, Rust, Python, TypeScript, and Kubernetes, the cadre of winning phrases in our tech world these days.

1:26:47Anything else behind the scenes there? Any Ruby involved anymore? No, Ruby, but we have a whole layer of different integrations for different kind of digital engineering tools and tools that you use, like Word or whatever. We basically have integrations for all the software that people do for their jobs. And so that is written in whatever is the best SDK language for that integration. And so that kind of brings our language count up pretty high, right? Because it's like C Sharp or Java or sometimes it's Python if we're lucky, right? But I think we've got stuff written in all kinds of languages as a result of that.

1:27:31But yeah, core platform is in those kind of more kind of traditional languages. And yeah, I think in terms of like what's next, I think, you know, like every scale up, you know, we're kind of at, you know, we're just kind of growing our platform. And what's really great is, you know, we have this like straw man that was built and then we kind of like iterated on that. And so now it's like, it's interesting to see, like, I'm at the like, maybe fourth big juncture of the, of the platform, just, you know, and to kind of be part of like a growth cycle for like living, breathing software, going through so many big kind of big growth spurts has been very fun, right?

1:28:13Because I've never joined a company this early. Usually we're just kind of refining much more narrower verticals. And so to kind of be growing horizontally, to be getting taller and bigger is fun. And so that's what we're all kind of going through, building more services, building more features, making our platform just integrate with more things. And just in general, we're doing a lot of great stuff with supercharging our kind of AI workflows clothes and um yeah i don't know i mean it's like what a time to be alive and not a good time to be a problem right like to go back to that earlier right yeah getting solved real soon exactly getting solved real soon and yeah i mean i think like you know with all the things that are happening in the universe today and all the uncertainty in the world like i feel between kind of enjoying what i do and just kind of also on a personal level you know um you know i'm a mother and I, it is like the best thing ever for me, you know, I'm really enjoying mommyhood and it's a deeply nourishing thing for me.

1:29:20And, um, you know, I just, I just, like I said, I just feel I have a, and I have a wonderful community of friends. And so I feel very blessed. And so, you know, no complaints from me, you know, so now it's like, I'm always eager to kind of reconnect with people. Um, I think I'm going to like maybe speak at a conference this summer and try to go to another tech conference as a non-speaker so I can have actual fun, you know, maybe in the fall. And, and yeah, I'm just like excited to kind of reconnect with more of my tech community friends. Cause I feel like I've kind of lost touch with some people, right.

1:29:58Because like people who I did knew because of community engagements and things like that, we're not as in touch anymore. And the people who I stay in touch with are the people who I had like very close personal relationships with. And so I'm eager to kind of like reconnect. And then the other big thing is like, I know I say this like every year, but like I think I'm actually going to try to get active on LinkedIn this year. You said that last year. I said that last year. I'm like, I actually have to do it. I did update my LinkedIn profile to at least show my Astari job history, which is great.

1:30:31So that's done. But all I get is weird recruiter spam. Um, and like, it's just, uh, you know, I'm like, I'm not even active on LinkedIn and I get all these weird messages and I so, and like, they find my personal email somehow, which I don't even know how I think they like reverse engineer, get, get up, commit messages is my guess. Um, you know, but, um, but basically there's tools to do this. Basically, uh, I am going to, I'm going to try to like, uh, do the corporate work worship meets like work Facebook, you know, thing. Um, but I think for me, it's just that like, I don't, I feel like I've kind of lost a social platform because, um, the only one that I was active on was Twitter and like Twitter's kind of turned into a little bit of a Nazi bar.

1:31:13And so I don't know where my new place is and blue sky feels a little too much like an echo chamber. So I'm just kind of like, I don't really know. I mean, and it feels like maybe LinkedIn, but like, I don't want to post on LinkedIn all the time. So I, I don't know y 'all please help me. Where, where do I go to like connect with my, my peoples? Cause there, there's some people, there's some diehards that are like still on Twitter, but a lot of people I know are either not active or gone. And then the people that I've taken over on Twitter are like, are you down with a little bit slower, a little bit slower social network?

1:31:47Yeah, a hundred percent. I mean, slow is my speed right now. So like less like real time interactive. Yes. Well, set up a blog, RSS feed, posse it out to all the sites, subscribe to each blogs and we'll read each other's blogs and then we'll just, Oh, you think we should go back to like blogging? I mean, that would be a great idea actually. I think so. But then we'd have to figure out what stack we're going to use for our blog. I mean, like, you know, we can, that's the most fun part, you know, and how many times are we going to rewrite it before releasing it? Think how many podcasts we can do about our new blogging stack.

1:32:20You know what, Jared, really, I still am an aspiring writer. Like I, you know, you know, this about me. Like I have like books that I want to write on digital literacy. Um, and they're not for the people listening to this podcast. They are for people that are not listening to this podcast. It's for your grandmas and your, and your, you know, and your, you know, your, your cousin that is like computer illiterate or, you know, or your 13 year old that like only knows how to use apps on a phone and not a computer. You know what I mean? And so that's definitely an audience that I'm eager to kind of reach at some point, but, um, but yeah, I don't know.

1:32:59I, uh, blogging might be a good idea. Actually. That's a good idea. Are you, would you, would you start a blog with me? Would you like do, would you, would you write? I have a blog. You know, I'm saying like, will you, no, but will you like refresh your blog? Will you like, Oh yeah. I'm refreshing my blog already. So you refresh yours. I'll refresh mine. Adam has, and we'll just write on our blogs and we'll, we'll talk to each other there and then we'll follow our you can join the posse party you just you just post to your blog and then your blog syndicates it out to all the networks so people who don't want to come to your blog they see that they're maybe let's stop over have a read i love that idea you know i think that's like that's i think that's very indyweb the indyweb is cool again indyweb is yes what would be a good platform for that mine's already in jekyll no is it in jekyll i just converted from jekyll to hugo yeah i was i was gonna use hugo hugo's super simple you can have claude just say just take my you know i have a jekyll blog this is like literally what i did i have a jekyll blog here it is your inst directory this is your prompt you're gonna inject this something like this yeah yeah copy paste this okay and i'll put some special characters in there um convert this to hugo dude like quick dude i want to get blogging that's basically what I said thank you so awesome at the end dude where's my blog dude where's my blog that's a really good title of something you should be a writer I mean listen I'm telling you Jared I will subscribe I will subscribe to your blog I would love I will definitely give it some thought I think writing is definitely it's like a healthy medium I think there's a few things that everybody should do which is like everyone should sing everyone should write everyone should dance everyone should cook something know how to cook something they don't have to be a good cook but they have to know like make a really good omelet or make a really good tuna salad or like know how to do one thing well in the kitchen you know i think these are these are all yeah yeah i think these are all good rules for life you know but singing writing i they feel like different forms of like expression you know that I feel like are, are really like, especially for knowledge workers, like we spend a lot of time in here, here, I'm pointing to like my head for those who are listening and like, it's good to kind of get it out.

1:35:19Right. It's good to kind of be in your body and or be in the physical reality a bit more like, you know, we spend a lot of time doing cerebral tasks. Um, so, so yeah, so do more cerebral tasks like writing, but like writing for me, it comes from a different place. than solving problems. So more, it's more inside. Yeah. It's more, it's more, yeah, it's more inside. Yeah, exactly. I get it. I love it. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's great. All right. Well, we'll see you in the blogosphere. See me in the blogosphere. And then, yeah. And maybe on LinkedIn. See with that, all you have to do is you set up your blog to just audit.

1:35:57You just posse party your blog over to LinkedIn is what I've been doing. And it just lets people know, Hey, I wrote something. Come read it. That's a good idea. Yeah. You don't have to even go there. it's just like you know it i feel like this like teenager you know how like when teenagers are like dragging their feet about something because they don't think it's cool they like inherently think it's lame that's how i feel about linkedin to be honest with you like i've i just i think for so wrong i've like looked down on it like you know like some like you feel like a hypocrite to come use it now i feel like this like yeah but you know what if you know what it's okay you know there comes a time where every person must change.

1:36:37It sounds like you're trying to talk yourself into quit smoking or something. You know? Gosh. I try to go to the, yeah. There comes a time where I need to just have an intervention. There comes a time. There comes a time. That reminds me of an old Mitch Hedberg joke about flossing. He says, you know, as hard as it is to quit smoking, that's how it is for him to start flossing. He's got this whole bit on how, how much he dreads starting flossing. So that's what you're going to do. Mitch Hedberg. Okay. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. Flossing is like using LinkedIn, you know? Yeah. But, but it was great catching up with y 'all.

1:37:12Absolutely. Yeah. I don't know. This, this felt like a very, like a much more mature show than our, than our usual, like discussions. Our party animal stuff. Yeah. I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I can't believe you started this show calling me an animal. I was like, wait, what? it's like what what am I a JS you know and it's so funny I think I think it took me a minute because you're you're talking like about JS party and um and that whole era and like you know JS party is like definitely one of the things that I'm the most proud of I think you know yeah something I love and like I'm really really considering like yeah maybe podcasting again for real you know um which is great I mean I don't like I couldn't obviously like it couldn't be like an ML show, right?

1:37:56It would have to be like as an ensemble, right? So that I could kind of spread out the commitment, but it's something I definitely want to get back to. Um, maybe not right the second, but definitely in general. But I think for now I'm happy to kind of do the circuit as a guest and like catch up with folks, um, such as yourself, you know? Um, so I think that that's, that's at least one way I can kind of like re re-experience this, but, but yeah, but I feel so much more serious and i don't know why i'm like maybe because i'm sick no you're a mom oh come on moms can't have fun come on you can't have fun you're just more serious that's not fair you know you're not my real dad

1:38:39i can't even call her mom and get away with it you know no no moms no i mean maybe it is because i'm a mom i don't know maybe but i don't know you know i don't think so i just i feel honestly i just i i feel like we're doing something really important at astari and i think i feel the weight of that importance like you know when you are like changing when you know you're changing something in a big way that has like a big ripple impact like that's how i feel you know because it's like we're doing something so revolutionary for this industry and we're doing it in a way that's so you know it's decentralized and it's very open and like you know we have like you know you plug into our platform we don't care about like this tool or that tool we're kind of agnostic about so many things and um and that you know it feels like we're doing something good and i think like the weight of that maybe the weight of that is kind of what's translating into like the seriousness that i feel like you know no wonder you won't let people vibe code i mean come on yeah yeah you know it's okay it's okay i'm fine you know what it is also like people building physical engineering like i went to like my first big physical engineering conference which is aia this past january and people are wearing suits and pants and you know how and they're so serious and every submission like there's like thousands of talks no no literally thousands and like everything comes with a technical paper and like here's the bibliography and here's basically like this art you know peer reviewable you know like artifact that you can you could have and and i'm like, man, tech conferences are just like giant parties disguised as conferences.

1:40:18And like here I was at this very big conference that was absolutely not a party. And it was like a very academic conference. And so, you know, you know, people do take themselves a lot more seriously and rightfully so. Right. Like, like, you know, like building things that like impact people's lives you know um so so that that that that checks out but it's like man like we we have such a unique culture as software engineers that like isn't like the norm you know like looking at other industries like you know so yeah we like we don't we're like we're like adult children you know so um yeah always be a kid yeah yeah i mean i'm definitely yeah i mean can't take it too seriously i mean seriously enough to not hurt people but not so seriously the process right yeah yeah i feel like i can't wait to read the article that's like you know texas-based podcast or you know like five coats you know five coats app that like rocket ship brings down hospital grid yeah i do have friends in in high places so i could do some things i'm just joking i'm just joking i'm just joking i'm like you know it's fine have fun have fun with your um yeah all right have fun out there mel thanks for joining us thank you yep bye friends

1:41:48this is our second episode of the week and our second changelog plus plus bonus of the week too members stay locked in for an additional 20 minutes of discussion we start off laser focused on Adam's big blog refresh and the tech he's going to use to accomplish it, then we get distracted when Amel poses this preposterous question. Is baseball a sport? I don't know where you're from, but where I'm from, them's just fighting words. If you haven't joined Changelog++, now's a good time. Head to changelog.com slash plus plus to directly support our work, make the ads disappear, and hear me vehemently defend our national pastime.

1:42:25Thanks again to Flight.io, to Breakmaster Cylinder, and to you for listening along. Next week on the pod, news on Monday, Paul Dix talking building the machine that builds the machine on Wednesday, and our old friend, formerly of the Python steering committee, Brett Cannon on Friday. Have yourself a great weekend, share the show with your friends who might dig it, and let's talk again real soon.

1:43:04Game on.