Just on the rocks (Friends)

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34:27okay so what was the total spent roughly oh gosh i don't i don't know cost of subscription kind of thing well yeah well that's why i don't understand and i'm just like neophyte over here because i have the so i pay open ai 20 bucks a month and so i went well i'll just pay claude or i'll play anthropic for claude ai the same and i think i did like 200 bucks a year or something And I was like, that gets me access to cloud code. But for some reason, that money doesn't translate into your actual API access either. So you have to go to like the Anthropic console and put more money in there. It's all very confusing.

35:03Like you get some use, but then it just like rate limits you. I don't have time for any of that. So I haven't gotten back to it since then, but I was just very excited. So I don't know how much it's cost. I threw 200 bucks at him, but I don't think I've used that. But I also don't think I can use it because I think it has to do with like, their web UI. Do you know the answers to these things? I don't. I got like a year of Claude Pro or something. And I thought that was what I needed. But then it's like, you can use Claude Code, but not too much. Not too much. Use the Claude Pro then. Yeah. And I was like, well, I just gave you 200 bucks.

35:39Can I use it a little bit more? They're like, no, you're going to need to give us more money. I think I was the same. I was playing with the API key from OpenAI and my ChatGPT subscription, essentially. And I wanted to take the same API token that I was using with that and have access to my own OpenAI models, I suppose, through OpenWebUI. So this is a locally running via Lama, OpenWebUI. So I wanted to kind of like have one place to go. even for my already paid for's. And it's actually not an extension to my knowledge, at least. And it's not an extension of chat GPT, your subscription. It's a whole separate API key that you fund differently, which I can kind of understand in one way, shape or form.

36:30But it's like, it sounds like you had to pay, or it seemed like you had to pay a subscription to even get access, to give them even more money for the specific API token. Something like that. You can go in there and top it off and use it or something. It's a different payment system for some reason. I don't know why. Maybe it's the way they meter it. Maybe it's the way they pay for it. Yeah. It's like two different product teams is my guess. And they just don't. They're not simpatico. It's like the API product and then the chatbot product. And I thought I was buying access to everything because they said if you have Claude Pro, you can use Claude Code.

37:06And I'm like, that's what I wanted to use. And it's like, yeah, but not very much. Okay. So you had to have Claude Pro to get access. You paid for access to give them more money for more access. That's right. That checks out. I mean, like a certain membership tier gets access to the special things. That makes sense to me. So you had to pay for that membership tier to get access to the special thing. But the access came with not giving them more money. You know, it wasn't like, here you go. Use 200 bucks you already spent. It was, nah, we need some more. right and so i haven't given them the more yet but they'll still give me like the the drip you know like you can get you can't get the flow but you can get the drip and i'm like well i'll just write one script a day fine with me you know like i don't need but in order to try to live the life that steve is talking about and then i go out and i see what people are paying for this stuff so if we go into the comments section and read some of the commentary of course price was one of them and in our comments, Brian Buchholz or Buchholz, not sure how you say it, Brian.

38:10He went and found out what Gene Kim is spending monthly on YouTube. Well, that's at least what the thumbnail looks like. Gene Kim is on the thumbnail. Maybe it's not him talking. I did not read it because I just took his takeaway, which says regarding monthly spend, found this on YouTube saying he, and I assume that he is Gene Kim, spends$300 to$500 a day. so that's a hundred thousand dollars a year and this is brian's math and it's like okay maybe worth it if you're replacing i mean if you're basically the option the other option is like hire an engineer now i know that's you know brutal and harsh and maybe inhumane but i will say the the experience that i had with one agent doing agent decoding for me was already better than experiences I've had telling humans to go do things, you know, the feedback loop is faster and there aren't opportunities to offend it.

39:09You know, like if you quit, like if you tell me my code doesn't look good, I might be offended. Now, maybe I'm not, I got thick skin, but, or, you know, I'm just having a bad day and it's something else. And you're like, Jared, that function is not right. I might just like go off on you. Right. Yeah. Like this thing's not going to it's always gonna be like oh you're right and there's actually there's something there like the fact that it's not a human sometimes doesn't mean mistreated adam i'm not saying mistreat it but like just don't worry about its feelings it doesn't have feelings it makes it more fun to delegate to it because you're like i just tell what i want i don't have to like happy i don't have to do the same what's the sandwich method you know like start with a compliment then criticize then give a compliment none of that i don't have to do any of that I'm just like yo bro this function's broken and he's like you're right I should fix it and he fixes it I'm like yo bro this function's broken there is something to that where it's like 100k for a good engineer or 100k for like 3 or 4 of these all day every day I'm not sure what that actually buys you there's a point where it becomes a pretty easy decision for somebody like me who does not like to manage or micromanage humans yeah what you've uncovered it is the removal of emotion and relationship in task delegation, which to human history thus far has not existed.

40:36Emotion has been there. Humanity and social norms and offense, all those things are in that scenario. And now it's it's it's possible to completely remove it and still, you know, explore in the dark like you might with new hires yeah like you tell someone like hey go try this out and come back to me and let me how it goes yeah like it's not like you know what that task didn't happen because i had a headache now it might say failed retry or something like that which is maybe a similar yeah api rate limited yeah uh those are different problems that's money you can solve money at that right you don't have to throw like interpersonal skills at it that's how i looked at When people were talking about how they spend their money or how certain people spend their money using these tools, I thought, well, they're just swapping out the same budget they had applied to solving the problem with humans.

41:33They just solved it with a singular human or maybe a smaller team of humans with agents or tools, tooling. You know, it's what we've been doing already. It's just now it's unfortunate. It's becoming literal humans in the loop that are not in the loop anymore. Or at least being competed against or tried against. Like you just said, you got better results. If I heard you right, you got better results with this than you would have or have had given the same task with a human with maybe less moaning and complaining. or even just emotional overhead for me right maybe there wouldn't be any money and we're complaining everything would go fine but i don't have to even care you know which is not a small thing i mean it actually it's like oh this is fun it's like having a code rabbit that's just like i'm a rabbit i don't have any like just give me the give me the instructions i'm gonna go do it maybe i'll fail maybe i'll be correct like all the things gotta fix them correct them things go wrong they're dumb etc but no actual human in the loop there like just me and a bunch of little ai babies building this thing i think it really i i do not think it's the near future for most people i do think it's the medium term future for most people and it's certainly unless unless something changes with these companies providing these services with regards to like copyright or whatever regulation that slows it down i'm sure that capitalism squashes the costs eventually to marginal and it's definitely a future now i can say you know what i wouldn't mind living in this future as a guy who makes software i feel like i can make way more software if this all continues to trend the way it is so that was my result after taking steve's advice there with just go try it on some script you haven't written yet because you just don't want to or it's too hard or whatever um should we read some more comments from people because there's just so many thoughts on this episode yeah for instance andrew brian the gig economy for programmers does not fill me with excitement this was a this was something that a lot of people took issue with and steve's analogy that you'll have this gig economy inside of enterprises where you just kind of rent a coder for a day or whatever it is you know like coders on demand in order to do code review or whatever it is you have to do and steve was saying this is like a great new thing that's going to happen and most people are like that's not really something we want in our enterprises because I mean the good economy has been both a blessing and a curse right like there's been a lot of bad that's come from that I'd say so too yeah mostly humans being marginalized which again that's where we are right that's what we just talked about but I talked about it in a good way like I don't have to have a human but I think everybody becomes the master of their own domain I mean I feel like for people who have I mean I think there's more agency assuming it's affordable and works and et cetera.

44:58I feel like it gives more people more agency and removes the skill, which is what hurts for so much of us. It's like, yeah, the skill doesn't matter anymore. My skills don't matter. But your judgment now matters way more. Your taste matters way more. Your ability to communicate matters way more. So it's certainly a trade-off. Yeah, I was actually reading that one. You said the rise of judgment. Well, you didn't say this is somebody else's title, but you wrote this for news. Yeah, I wrote about that. Yeah, the rise of judgment over technical skill. and I think that's certainly going to become more of a decider for folks is like, I want to understand your judgment, not your skills.

45:32Cause you kind of, you can kind of learn most things for the most part, but do you have good taste? Does your taste align? Your beliefs align with mine in the direction for this thing? You know, you know, I cut, it's kind of cliche to come back to the Uber thing because that's really where a lot of this gig economy stuff began. in but i think about even simple things like our recent trips out of town like the last three or four trips you and i have limed everywhere and whereas before we would just not go and do much outside the hotel just within walking distance unless it was like a nice hike or getaway like we would do that too but like less frequently because of that for those who don't know limes are electric scooters yeah limes are uber accessible electric scooters you can use the uber app to reserve them and write them and pay for them it's a separate company i believe unless uber bought the company but it's like integrated yeah yeah i know they at least started as their own company yeah but i think uber either acquired them or integrated them in a smart way so that you can just you don't have to have the lime app now i've done the same thing with bird which is bird is another electric scooter company that is out there like it's been in kansas city where I've done it.

46:49And they kind of got, you know, beaten by Lime in this way. It's like, well, now that I already have the Uber app, why would I want the Bird app? I'm just going to use the Limes because they're in there. So, but you were making a bigger point. I was just pointing it out. And it's crucial to say that because like if you haven't traveled recently from your city to a different city, you know, appreciate the fact that when you do this next time, not only will you be able to Uber from the hotel or sorry, from the airport to the hotel, Once you get to your hotel, if you'd like to not Uber anywhere else, like get in a car and go somewhere, you can simply go to the nearest corner in most cases, pull open your Uber app and scan this QR code on the Lime, the Lime scooter, and just happily get on it and go wherever you want.

47:37Now, provided it keeps its charge and has power, it will take you wherever you want to go. And for the most part, safely, it's up to you. There's no helmet involved. You are suggested to ride on the roads. they don't they tell you to stay off the sidewalks although i saw you on a sidewalk on a recent change law news did you see me almost hit that guy i saw something i saw man that fedex guy or ups guy hopped out of nowhere i about took him out yeah i i slowed that down and replayed it for people so like that's a good moment yeah that was a good moment anyways but but that you can go somewhere now so the reason why i bring this up is not to camp out on this sort of like well-known known fact, which is Uber exists.

48:16And this is where gig economy began and marginalization began, but that we now have a new thing as individuals to go to a whole new city. And like you said before, this goes back to agency. We have the agency to step outside of our hotel. We could, we could fly down an Uber. We can rent a car. It's just less practical. Now, if we have a Lime, cause we can easily just hop on your Lime and my Lime and we just go and we We scoot and we have fun and we stop and we get off and we leave it. You can just leave it wherever you want. Take a photo and then go into the store and do what you want or go into the restaurant for three hours and come back out.

48:53It might still be there or a new one is replaced that somebody else brought there that's fully charged. And you just go again. Like to me, that agency in a city is how I compare this. Like that's a beautiful thing. Right. Other things will be versions of that, either in the agent world or in the physical world that are a result of that technology being available. Like that to me is just so cool, honestly. Yeah, absolutely. And some of the stuff that Apple showed off at WWDC with the ability to call local models on your phone. And then basically like if vibe coding gets good enough where everyone can just vibe code their own little iPhone app for their one use case that no one else is going to use.

49:37Like that's pretty awesome. Like that's going to make a lot of people's lives a lot better. A lot of people who previously would have to hire some team that's going to charge them a hundred grand to get their thing done. You know, like it's not never going to happen. One category is like, I have a business idea. I'm going to go fund it to build a thing. and like that becomes cheaper of course but like the the even more generally usable thing is like i have this annoyance i don't like i wish i could fix it my life would be slightly better and now it's like hey xcode why don't you do a thing that makes an app that does this and it's like 10 minutes later it's deployed on your iphone just for you like that is that's pretty cool That is beyond pretty cool, man.

50:24That's super cool. That's super cool. Yeah, it is beyond pretty cool. Returning to the comments section,

50:34JRWRENJrWren, not sure how to pronounce that handle, says, I don't know what to say after listening to this podcast other than I just plain don't believe him. Not sure if he's lying intentionally or if his experience is some special niche or if I'm just straight up wrong. I like that comment. Oof, yeah. because there's some like wiggle room in there. Like, well, maybe he's lying. Maybe. I just don't believe him. I just don't believe him. It's just hard to believe. Yeah, I think what he's not saying there, he's not saying that Steve is a liar. He's just saying that he's in disbelief, that it's possible.

51:11Is that how you read that? Yeah, like he's not sure if he's actually lying or if it's just like he's living a world I'm not living in. It's hard for him to believe. No, he does say in the second sentence, I'm not sure if he's intentionally lying or lying intentionally. So I guess he kind of answers my question. He's questioning himself whether or not this guy's lying or not. Yeah, funny. It very much is the future. I mean, it's very much a snapshot, not the future, the literal future coming, but a version of what's coming as a result of the future coming, I guess is a different way to say it. Like, it's not a snapshot of what I think we'll do in the future.

51:46It's today's version of the snapshot of it.

51:54okay yes thank you and then aj kerrigan replied to that response and agreement i had that feeling too with regards to either him lying or just being wrong i've been in a much tamer ai curious zone more like baby steps than babysitting nice turn of phrase there and amps warning that's the source graph coding agent about if you want your cost limited and predictable, don't use this effectively warned me off it. I feel like most people right now in mid 2025, this is too expensive for most of us in the way that some people are using it where they're spending$300,$500, a thousand bucks a day and really leaning into it.

52:41I just feel like it is too expensive and it warned me off of it too. Like I just stopped. I was like, okay, I haven't even gotten to where Steve is. I haven't gotten two agents going at the same time yet. I'm like single agent status. Show title. So my experience slash appetite slash skill were all too far away from Steve's to practically relate. Still in a nursing show, though. It's useful to see what people with a ton of resources and AI focus slash optimism are getting up to. Christopher Patty hops in and doubles down on how expensive it is. Infinite money.

53:18and of course you know source graph is one of the companies that's trying to capture some of that money so there is that nuance to the conversation as well i mean they're trying to capture the money but they're also been trying to solve the same problem for it's not like they came out of the will work and like let's create cody and amp and source graph to just grab your money and like they've been solving a problem for developers for the better part of a decade sure so they do have a financial upside obviously if you choose them a large one like they'll make tons of money if if amp becomes the way yeah yeah which is fine like if it becomes the way they deserve a bunch of money right you know i mean everybody has agents though right and like everybody every brand i can think of you've got i don't want to like toot too many horns i suppose indirectly you got agent force from salesforce uh not a sponsor technically technically they are through heroku that's salesforce and we talked about agent force as part of that campaign just didn't land it was spoken about in regards to heroku being a better platform for application developers therefore agent force uh retool has agents out now that's uniquely positioned to like take advantage of the existing retool internal tools you've built so now the agents you build out will have access to these internal tools i think that's the coolest thing ever honestly great timing to be retool yeah i don't know how much different amp is compared to like a retool like how these agents separate like what the difference is between source graph amp for example and retail agents i'd imagine they're marginally different but similar tasks just not the same overall landscape of feel what they can agent over so to speak then you got agents like you were doing which is in the command line so they got file system access stuff like that's a whole different scenario you got agents in the cloud agents on the on the desktop i guess i just want this unpredictive AI, predictive AI, so to speak, to work for me in the future.

55:22And that's what agents are. You find places to put the work and they do the work. It is the best source of automation in so many ways. Like I don't have to write the business plan anymore because I just described the business and it writes the executive summary and all the models and all the math. Now, provided the math checks out, that's why you have to run one against the other, which I've done multiple times because I'm always questioning business model ideas.

55:54That's different, man. That's different. It's crazy. I'm rambling here, but this world we're going to live in is really, is really interesting. I think we are obviously Steve was talking about the future. He, I mean, he literally gets paid to play with R and D. I mean like that's where he's at. It's like his tale was not the tale of like some rando who decided to like investigate. It's somebody who's paid to R &D for a well-funded, I would say, AI first now company called Sourcegraph. That's his job is to R &D for them and to dream. And so he's seeing a glimpse of what that dream is after being a 30 plus, 20 plus year veteran in software.

56:38it's a pretty substantial opinion to listen to for sure well he also wrote the book on vibe coding which the funny thing about that and i think i said this to him afterwards is like dude that's not coming out till october isn't vibe coding going to be so different by october like this feels like the kind of book that needs to be constantly updated like in real time yes out Right now. The state of the art continues to change at a rapid pace. Let's read a couple more comments. There's so many of them. We can't read them all, of course. If you're not in our Zulip, what's wrong with you? Great conversations being had.

57:16That's right. Some interesting people join and converse with us. Tim Ukin or Ukin. We've heard from Tim in the past. He's got the bear take here. Imagine a future where a generation of young men who are smart and energetic enough to learn to code can't get jobs. Imagine, in addition, those there are a huge number of young men who are laid off and have nothing but time on their hands and are desperate to make a living. I'm not hopeful for the future after listening to this. We all thought automation would go after unskilled positions and everybody could just skill up and get a better job. Now it's going after the highest skill jobs, coders, designers, creatives, writers, doctors, lawyers, engineers, financial analysts, stockbrokers, etc.

57:56You know, let's scroll back up to that one. Let's camp out there for a second. So I think about this a lot. So let's pick out lawyers, right? Okay. We've paid lawyers before, right, Jared? We've paid lawyers generous sums to do things. Too much. Too much, in my opinion. For too little. Just kidding. I think they charge a crazy amount per hour. Does that mean they're not skilled? The workforce, I guess society forces them to go to very expensive schooling at length. And so they should be paid well. I get that. but there are so many things I've paid a lawyer 400 bucks an hour to do that they show off to the person that doesn't get paid 400 bucks an hour.

58:36They still happily charge us 400 bucks an hour. Cause Hey, that's our, that's our rate. Okay. There's no discount for when we show it off to the, the future me that only gets paid a hundred bucks an hour. You know, I get it. Companies, margin profits. I get it all. I get it all. Lambos. I mean, you gotta get out of Lambo. Yeah, but there's just so much expenditure in that world where there's room to slain off some. And as a business person, I get to move faster because I have, again, agency to take control over certain things. And to me, that's a fun world to live in. That's a fun world to live in.

59:15I like that world. What you showing off here, this comic here? I was just looking at a comic that somebody put in. I was trying to see if it was worth reading. It's basically just representing the fact that we're replacing all the fun things like art and not plumbing. And it's like we need robots for plumbing. Oh, we're working on robot plumbers. Trust me. I don't know that we are, but I know that we are. You do? And by we, I mean the human race. Someone's working on robot plumbers, aren't they? I think you might. Okay, so let me try and predict this. Okay. On the record. I think there's definitely going to be prediction in the way buildings, large scale buildings will get plumbed.

59:58Like, why would a human do it when the AI can do all the downslope and angles perfectly? Right. Why do all that math? A human shouldn't do all that math. At some point, software should learn that math and the human should think about grand architecture and tasteful things. So that's probably one area is design, plumbing design systems. happily automate that away unless I'm that person I'm pissed because I just said that who does that so I do feel for that person but now they got to move down the vaccine right now they got to figure out was it implemented right until maybe the I can do that move up move up the variant chain yes thank you then I think about maybe there's some sort of autonomous robot that can build certain configurations and turns and u-shapes that maybe the on-site plumber doesn't have to do that they can just hand the task really fastly to this thing they can like hammer out this intricate whatever and all they got to do is plug it into the thing and i know i probably sound very vague when i say that but imagine like this you know complex configuration of plumbing that just gets automated by the robot and the human sort of like puts it into position or knows where it should go that to me is probably pretty pretty common an actual person getting replaced by a robot under the sink though in the traditional sense of a plumbing behind the toilet replacing the toilet that's gonna be a human job for a while yeah at least a few months at least a few months and honestly if you're just kidding you know a friend of mine let me see if i pull up the text real quick a friend of mine just shared this with me and this kind of fits into here And he was talking about this idea of lifestyle entrepreneurship.

1:01:48And I'll just read a couple sentences of it because he says, Lifestyle entrepreneur builds a business designed to support their desired lifestyle, prioritizing personal freedom, flexibility, and fulfillment over maximizing revenue or company size. So if I'm the person who does that kind of plumbing, and I can step into a role that not a lot of people want to do. I do it pretty well. I do it when I want. That's a lifestyle entrepreneur opportunity. You can be a great plumber and do that kind of work on the simple home scenarios or the grand scale remodel or complex enterprise scenario. Maybe less that, but more so the one, the other one where I'm like, I can go in and plumb.

1:02:32I could do a job at robot. Probably can't do it for a long time. They can do some of it. They can assist me. They can assist me on slope or which, you know, which size, I don't want to say, which size plumbing, which size pipe to use, you know, and help me on all the adapters. Like, plan all that for me. And I'll just do the work, the part that the human can do and should do pretty much forever, which is like precise, precision, no leaks, check it, water pressure. Okay, cool. It works. Robot, nah, for a while. Planning it, designing it. Yes, robots. Give it to me right now. I might take the complete opposite side of that.

1:03:12Okay. I think the human has to be involved in the planning and the deciding. Of course, they're AI-assisted. Because that's where the judgment is. That's where the discretion and the wisdom can be applied. But the robot can do the precision motions and perhaps even lift heavier things and fit into places. These, of course, are humanoid robots. which they're working on. And I think, you know, backbreaking work. Every plumber I've ever known, and I've known a handful of them, by the time they're 40, 50 years old, you know, their knees are shot, their back is jacked up. They wish they didn't spend the last 30 years plumbing underneath a sink or underneath a toilet.

1:04:01And so I feel like the human needs to be in the loop where the judgments are made. And the robot should be doing the, like, you know, Bender from Futurama. Like Bender bends things, you know? I don't know. Who knows what it's going to look like? I can see yours being true. Did I say both though? Planning it and doing the intricate bends and stuff? No, well, you said the humans there with the precision and the... in in placing it in place yeah i think right because i mean what autonomous robot can easily maneuver into places well not right now but they're working real hard on this i mean they are now we watch a lot of boston dynamics my son and i my youngest and i like for entertainment and so i would say i'm pretty schooled on their abilities and it's it's mostly boring weird enterprise things that they carry well you start with the easy stuff here to there you know it's but i mean specialized machinery is only a step away from like robots right i mean they are machines that build things like the precision tooling inside of a car manufacturer for instance i know tesla has like what they call a robot that's doing these these these precision motions now one that can do arbitrary tasks like the they're working on but yeah i think it's probably pretty far away but specialized robots you know flipping hamburgers not very hard whole bunch of teenagers not going to be able to get their job flipping hamburgers because why why would you deal with a teenager when you have a robot that all it needs is some wd-40 and uh you know kick in the back and it's good to go it'd be kind of cool to walk up to a burger shop and it's just not so much a robot specifically like like an a a humanoid robot yeah humanoid kind of looking thing but it's like just it's just like a robot that acts kind of like a human but isn't one yeah it's just automation you see it in motion i mean they've been doing that with like donuts for a while right yeah they come for sure the donut rides on yeah yeah laverne and shirley showed us that in the 80s you know in milwaukee lucille ball right i love lucy She had her, she had her assembly line.

1:06:13Uh, yeah. You know, I feel like that's not too far away, especially with how hard it is to hire these days and how, you know, with minimum wages going up, you just push small businesses to automate. They'd rather, you know, have a capital expenditure on a robot than hire more people at that wage. So yeah, it gets to be pretty dicey for humans like Tim's talking about, you know tim's so right gosh darn it i think we're all a version of right though i mean we're unintentionally we're questioning the value of humanity right like we're not really trying to question it but we have to because i think it's pretty common for someone to say i would prefer to not deal with a teenager and their emotion and so if that's the case and you can choose an autonomous robot-like thing, whether it's automation robots or like a literal humanoid robot, you're probably going to make some version of a pragmatic choice.

1:07:20And the pragmatic choice says, this route, you know, less error, no emotion, all precision, happily, happy to mess up and say they'll fix it and then fix it. Or I came in late, I've got entitlement, And, you know, whatever these kids these days are saying, I don't know what they're saying. I'm leaving early. Now, at the same time, I've met some really good kids taking care of me at restaurants and places like that. So, you know, it's such a. Oh, yeah. There's always good kids and there's always, you know, good for nothing. There always has been.

1:08:05well friends building multi-agent software is hard agent to agent and agent to tool communication is still the wild wild west so how do you achieve accuracy and consistency in non-deterministic agentic applications. That's where the agency, A-G-N-T-C-Y, comes in. The agency is an open source collective building the internet of agents. And what is the internet of agents? It's a collaboration layer where AI agents can communicate, discover each other, and work across frameworks. For developers, this means standardized agent discovery tools, seamless protocols for interagent communication, and modular components to compose and scale multi-agent workflows.

1:08:54You can now build with other engineers who care about high-quality multi-agent software. Visit agency.org and add your support. That's A-G-N-T-C-Y dot org.

1:09:11That being said, I've been watching Alone again. Have you ever seen this show, Alone? i don't think so okay so this is a survivor competition show where they drop you know 10 people 12 people however many it is out in the middle of nowhere they'll pick a location that's difficult these are survivors like they're professional survivor kind of people okay and their job is to stay alone in that location and survive they do all their own surviving of course that should go without saying but i said anyways they do all their own survivor and see a robot this okay this level of redundancy and then they also do their own recording so like they have gopros and they do like there's no one there with cameras there's no camera guy or gal wow they're our alone now like once every couple weeks this cut like a crew comes out and does a health check with them on ways i make sure they're not like actually dying and then leaves that's their only contact with humanity and so it's fun to watch because you you got to survive.

1:10:11They're cold. They're whatever mosquito bites. They got to get there. Most of them are starving. Like they have to find food. Very difficult. They have to have shelter. But most of them, most of them end up going crazy and quitting. Like you can also tap out whenever you want. Like you just phone in and like I'm officially tapping out or whatever you say. And they come and get you. Almost all of them lose because not because they're starving or they are bored it's because there's no humans it's because they're alone it's because they're lonely and the more tied they are to it's almost like the better life they have but it's more tied they are to people back home like if you got kids you're done you're smoked like i in the first episode was fun because i go through and i like know which ones are not going to make it it's like i got a two-year-old was like you're smoked you know you might as well just quit today and then there's other guys like i brought a picture of my kids i'm like you are so done like there's no way you're gonna look at that picture for like six hours and then be out of here it's your weakest line but you're turning around but there's a gal the most recent one that's the australia version which australians are surprisingly wimpy i'm just putting that out there for the universe dude these people gave up so quick it's in it's in tasmania but they're all pretty much australians and i thought they would be tougher than this so take that australia but a couple of them last long time and there's one gal who's like her daughter died at a young age and she's divorced and she's kind of, she didn't have much to go back to, you know?

1:11:36And I'm like, she's got a good shot. Anyways, the whole point is we talk about not needing the value of humans, right? We talk about the value of humans and do we need them? And what value do they bring? But in a world where like everything we do, like you go get your coffee in the morning, it's a robot. You know, you go through, you go to work and you work with AI robots. And then you go out for lunch and you're sitting there with a robot serving you food or whatever. the value is the humanity itself, right? Like we're going to, that'd be a lonely world. Don't you want the humans in there? Yeah.

1:12:11Then we're going to want the humans in the loop. There's a hundred percent value to the human connection, obviously. Yes. And I think that's where we're all clawing for is like, where will society be okay with removing? And where will society be zero okay with removing a human? And I think that's probably the struggle of the next 10 years of humanity. That will be the next 10 years of tension in humanity. It's like, where are we okay with removing and not removing a human in the loop? Because you're right. When I go to pick your favorite coffee shop, I want to walk in there and I want to see other humans in there doing their thing.

1:12:55Yeah, totally. Sitting down, drinking their stuff, hanging with friends, meeting with people. Right. The classic coffee scene. And I don't want to go to a counter where I got to push a button or it already knows my order. Even if it was better coffee, I like talking to Sally or John or Bob or whoever's behind the counter because that's what life's about. Right. They're my neighbor. They go to church with me. I see them in HEB, the grocery store. You know, I see them, you know, at jujitsu class with my kid or whatever or baseball or pick your thing. You know, that's the fabric of society. And I think that's going to be the challenge of humanity is like keeping or not keeping certain fabrics as we kind of go forward.

1:13:39You know, where are you OK with removing that? Now, hey, let's talk about car washes, OK? Let's talk about it. OK. Last time I went to a car wash, a kid or a version of a young adult checked me in to my order. OK. They pushed a button and told me, follow these people. and there was a you know a line of cars right i went through this system they maybe did some like wheel scrubbing and maybe some extra applications some things that are like bonuses maybe they're bonuses because humans did them all right the robots did everything else okay my car and my truck came out yeah i mean average average yeah i mean it was it was not a human done job but is it do you need that you know i don't know right like what's good enough i feel like on that so we have the same things here where it's like rocket car wash or tommy's express or whatever and it's like 99 percent machine and there's like a human there and you know some 16 year old kid is bored out of his mind he's just waving you through you know we have the one where they're supposed to spray you for like to get the bugs off but the kid's just like whatever guys he's kind of like spraying the water wherever spreading the wrong place he's been there for like nine hours and he's bored out of his mind and and yet the car wash is always just like humming suitable you know oh yeah it's busy but i'm saying like the end result you're just kind of like meh like it'd be so much better if a person actually did this but not worth it for the price like for the price you're like yeah but you know 10 bucks yeah you're never getting that from a human like we'll never do that job for that being said like a human at the front and then at the end like doing the dry off and like the touch-up work or the finishing that that's a good combo is like yes in the front you know the human sandwich human ai and then a human

1:15:32there's a show title again human ai human that's a human sandwich i'm full of them uh you are You did a good job today. You got to sit well in there and everything. Well, I've been drinking this whiskey, you know. Oh, yeah. I forgot you were sipping on that whiskey. See, as a sober person, it's so strange because I'm never not sober anymore. I'm also sober. Yeah, I figured you were. I mean, I'm not sober. You don't lose it on a podcast, but you might be a little bit more tipsy than I am. I guarantee you are. Well, I'll definitely have more alcohol in my body than you do. That's true. That's true.

1:16:03So I'll give you that much. Yeah. You know, just keep the humans, you know. Just keep the humans. we're here we're humans we want to work oh i don't even like laughing about this i'm gonna get slapped in the face by humans and robots at some point in my life for my comments this is gonna go out to our feed and tim yukin's gonna come here transcribed we're also in the microphone i think he might be from australia so this is the double whammy he's in new zealand or australia i think tim is from australia take that tim your people are weak go watch alone in australia and they drop like flies out there it's very surprising okay is it better than naked and afraid i haven't actually watched naked and afraid because i just don't have any interest in the naked part i don't either it's always blurred out like it's not why you watch it though isn't that just a stupid gimmick i don't think it is now let me tell you why i don't think it is because like a lot of people will come to that show and you'll see at the comments where's the version without the blur um there is no version without the blur you weirdo okay that's not the purpose of the show it's literally to strip the person down to their nothing from something to nothing and live the 14 or 21 days or whatever it is uh-huh and I think there's a little bit because they always pair a guy and a girl together and so there may be some of that in the relationship part of it yeah like we're both naked yes and like you're like how far will they go with their own separate lives and they're commingling to like make it work that's part of the struggle sure so i think that's maybe the the the edge of the naked and afraid part of it but i've never personally watched it because i'm like you know trying to get a glimpse of the blur like it just doesn't make any sense no the fact that they did go from like i came here clothed and i had to be vulnerable and take my clothes off yeah and then be literally what god gave me to survive out here like that to me is a really compelling show is there a time limit though it's like two weeks i think it's 21 days if i remember correctly that's the big difference here with alone is there's no time limit you can just survive as long as you can survive and you don't know if the other people have dropped off or not because you have no contact so maybe you're like it's two people maybe there's a bunch of them still going maybe the other person is starving to death and you're doing great you have no idea what's happening so that's that's the difference um also don't you think like the naked and afraid if the prerequisite for the show is like look here's what you're signing up for you're gonna strip down naked and then whatever what happens next doesn't that really limit like the pool of humans that you could possibly recruit like you already guarantee that some probably crazy people are coming on which is good for tv but for me like i like the survival style like i like seeing how smart and resourceful they are and stuff and i just feel like naked and afraid doesn't invoke that style of show to me it's like somebody trembling behind a tree you know once they're afraid i'm even they don't even care anymore like i like once it's gone like past that first close off moment it's kind of like not even part of the show anymore what's the afraid part well i think the fact that they're in tanzania or some random places yeah there's predators about okay not only was i dropped off in tanzania but i'm dropped off in tanzania during storm season right so i know today it's dry i gotta get over that hill and if i do i can get to the place where i can create my shelter and if i don't i'm spending a half day through those thistles and the rain and you'd be cold by the time you get there so it's strategic thinking you know and the fact they're naked that means there's no shoes either so everywhere they're literally barefooted right they're exposed as extremely as you can be to the elements do any of them fashion clothes for themselves or anything they do yeah i mean those there's versions of the show that are like they call them naked and afraid at xl i believe it's like extra large like the i'm sorry i'm not part of this crew i don't make up these names and it's like multiple teams you will get dropped off by yourself and you will have to find your people and then you have like this four-person squad and there'll be multiples of those so there might be like three or four four-person squads and then it's all competing but individually too because you kind of are on this team and i want me and jerry's team to win obviously you know i want to survive let's just say right i don't want to lose but then there's times where like you know i may i may tap out and you may continue and you join somebody else's team you know so now you got like team changes and stuff like that happening there's a lot of like unexpected things or you got this dude who's like oh you know what i'm gonna eat this alligator's eyeballs because they're great for protein but they're also really great for parasites and this dude like basically has to get out which is something that happened on one of before he ate the alligator's eyeballs and then he regretted eating the alligator's eyeballs and he didn't make it past the day after that he was gone sick yeah he's gone you know and you're like hey that dude eats some really weird stuff let's not eat what he eats okay because he eats some really weird stuff well i'm glad the xl was referring to the team size i thought it just meant like plus size people you know yeah no they they everybody's and you know and they invite the the legends too they invite the legends back to you know you got this is a deep catalog it really is i mean it's i mean it's probably 15 seasons deep or more i'm guessing wow people must like the show at least at least i mean honestly like i don't know what other people feel about naked and afraid or the naked part of being naked and afraid but it's always been the hoot to be like seeing that person in the comments where's the version without the blur that there is none just every episode has one unfortunately it's just part of the name but i think it's got this great premise which is why i like alone i like the idea of alone i think actually it might be more fun with a prepared survivalist fully clothed right potentially but then there's also some excitement about somebody who's like you know what i've seen some people survive where i'm like there's no way he or she is surviving and they're the one who thrives you're like how did that person who was Skinnies all get out, no fat at all in their body to lose.

1:22:27You know, they're going to be a skeleton afterwards. How do they survive? Well, 21 days, you can just starve. Yeah. That's where I think like with alone, like to win alone, I've watched enough seasons. You got to go at least two months. Like no one's going to win without 60 days. And that's like serious, you know, like you got to really survive. You can't. Well, one guy did just put on a bunch of weight and kind of just outlasted everybody else. But you got to find food, man. whereas 21 days you could just survive and and just suffer through it probably i don't know how you actually win then who wins and why so this is these are all great questions so typical show they get a interview here yeah so typical show is a pair of people it's usually got a girl okay um i don't know if they've ever been guy guy or not or girl girl i'm not really sure but it's always been like a gender swap pair kind of thing and you win by literally surviving so you either tap out and you don't win and it's and or you or you don't and you get to the gotcha the what they call them uh extraction points you have to literally traverse to an extraction point so you might go somewhere and camp for the 21 days but the extraction point might be a mile or two or three or four east and you've got to camp somewhere and then extract elsewhere so you got that makes the premise quite a bit different than alone i think you might like i think both have their reasons to exist yeah now excel version is the same thing it's just survival like you've got to last the days and those who last the days are part of the team that wins there's no like i win over you or you win over me it's just we all win if we're there at the end we've all won so that's how winning and losing is is chosen there but it's like you're really a team like the individual show is when we land if we don't team up and we fight or we have disbeliefs or we don't align we're probably gonna fail you know just because that's how it's gonna work you have to band together to make it through and those who don't tend to not survive those who do tend to survive pretty easily and in fact some of them are like this is really fun to watch because not only they're they're not dying they're thriving like wow they were able to get a snake and a uh you know a caiman or whatever it might be and next thing you know they're eating snake and caiman they they've got they've smoked it now they got like caiman jerky it's like you know they're eating like kings kind of thing it's kind of it's kind of wild and the ones who are sucking you're like dang they're really like they're eating poop you know like they're eating the wrong stuff you know they're eating this fruit you should not eat you know oh yeah or eating a lot of banana unread banana could you imagine eating only banana for three weeks gosh no i'd rather starve i think i think there's actually some virtue to the starvation strategy if you only have to go 21 days then eat a bunch of bananas you know tell me though how do we get you can shut your metabolism down you know after a couple of days of not eating yeah and uh last quite a ways as long as you have some reserve fats but how do we get here though with with this how does this relate back to okay let's tie it all back together.

1:25:35So we've all gotten this far. We've all survived. You know, if you've made it this far, you're with us still. We are the winners. We've survived. How are we going to survive this coming AI apocalypse? Well, Adam said it earlier, we have to band together. You know, we have to team up with your fellow humans and promote each other and help each other and equip each other. And we have to leverage the tools that we have. otherwise they will simply squash us like the cockroaches that we are and so i'm gonna be out there grabbing on some agents and tell them to do things you know boss them around before they start bossing us around dog nabbit what do you think is there any more than that well for now i have a job jared that's all i got right now for now i have a job there you go and we just finished our job let's call it a show see you in denver if not what's wrong with you if you can't make it to denver in july obviously there's lots of reasons why you might not be able to but if you can please do we love to meet up with as many folks as possible we're gonna have fun with or without you but more fun with you.

1:26:50So please do come. Preferred with you. Yeah, exactly. Thanks again to our new friend Kendall Miller and his Friday deployment spirits. Pretty good whiskey. Gin, you know, if you like gin maybe it's good. I can't tell. I can't tell. But I do appreciate him sending us out some spirits. And anything else? Or just say goodbye friends and hang up. I think change.com slash live is the place to be. I'm excited about July 26th in Denver. It is a big deal to launch Pipely. It's so much work going into this. Like, I think we're underplaying it like a little bit because we don't want to boast too much. But like, I'm going to boast just for a second if you don't mind.

1:27:33Like, okay, go for it. Please come here. We want to, if you can, if you can spend the money to fly and hang. The ticket is, of course, super inexpensive. We're on a hike. We're on a live podcast. We're on a launch something cool. We're on a meetup. We want you there. Come see us changelog.com slash live has all the details It's super easy to come And we basically made it free For the most part If you want to throw us a membership to get it free You can, if not, just pay the actual fee And we want to see you there So I know I do I'm excited to see you and Gerhard And Aaron Dowd's coming back Jason's coming, our editor of course The whole team's going to be there Breakmaster Cylinder will be there New beats potentially, we'll see I'm guessing.

1:28:18Why would he not bring new beats? I think fresh beats are on order for sure. Fresh beats, yes, for sure. And the mystery guests, you know, we just don't know. We just don't know yet. But if you come, you will know. That's right. You will know. That's it. All right. Bye, friends. Bye, friends.

1:28:41Well, that's it. This show's done. Thank you for tuning in. Friends is over. Back on Monday. We will see. We will see. I will tell you one thing, though. I look forward to seeing you in Denver. Live. Changelog.com slash live. Go there. Get a ticket. Come and see us. Live show in Denver. IRL. All the things. Come on. I want to see you there. You should also be in our community in Zulip. Changelog.com slash community. Free to join. Get there right now. Hang out with people. Make some friends. All the good stuff. Okay, that's it. This show's done. We'll see you next week.