Of agents & agency (Friends)

31:48So what's a digital thread? Yeah. So digital thread is like, so I'll give you an example. So you take, you pull data from CAD, for example, or you pull data of let's even just like Excel, we go even more basic. So we, you know, you can integrate Excel. We pull data from Excel. then you can take those values, you know, using our digital IDE to then push them into another program. So you can pull values from Excel, push them into CAD, then take that CAD file, then push it to another program, run a simulation, right? And so you can actually build this kind of CI, CD, what we call CC, which is continuous compliance kind of like workflow, making sure that like while you're building this thing in the physical world, it's still complying to the metrics, right?

32:32So how do engineers that are working on a physical thing, basically, how do they collaborate? How can they make sure that when they're making changes and they're tuning things, all this stuff is still inbounds. It all still works together. And also, how do we give people on the team situational awareness? How do we share just pieces of our data with our vendors? I have a third-party vendor who's building the tires for this airplane. how do I just share the specs that they need? Right now, unfortunately, a lot of people, there's emailing of things. There's no secure way for people to share these technical files and this technical data.

33:14And it also costs a lot of time when you don't have a way of digitally kind of certifying that something works. And so using our IDE, essentially using our SDK and our tooling and our integrations, you're able to kind of digitally certify things, you know, basically based on, based on the source of truth, right? So you're able to connect all these authoritative sources of truth together and then say, okay, like this works like this, you know, I'm, because I, I'm actually running, running a real simulation. I'm actually looking at the real data. You know, I'm, you know, I'm able to pull, pull and extract different pieces and put it together.

33:55And so So it's, yeah, so essentially it's a digital engineering, digital threading platform, but the core architecture can be used for anything. Digital engineering, so aerospace and defense is the first industry that we're kind of focused on. And we have like, we're, you know. That's why you didn't need to raise any money. That's why we didn't need to raise any money. Got a lot of money. Go where the money is. Got a lot of money. Get those customers going. Yeah. You got it. And so, and what's really cool about this is like this, we are a trust platform, you know, like we don't look at your data.

34:33We actually, we use this, you know, tokenization workflow, which is, you know, we kind of bypass, we use our clients to, you know, connect directly to, you know, storage buckets. And so, you know, we generate a token and we store a reference to that token in RDB, but, but none, none of your data passes through our, our layer. And so hence the control plane data plane that we set up. And so it's just very, very cool. And in a, in an age where everyone wants your data, you know, and everyone, like it's, it's, it's just really refreshing to be working on software that like protects and, and, you know, like the whole cares about that side of it.

35:12yeah doesn't want that doesn't want the access can't we don't want the access i can't lose what i don't have or i can't you know mistreat what i don't have or sell it later yeah so meta question then yeah how did you find this place oh yeah oh my god so this is the best part about this job so like this is why i'm like you know it's early so we i get to move at the past pace that i want to and what's really nice about startups that anyone knows like you want to have an impact you can have an impact. You just got to, you know, the shovels are on the ground, just pick it up. There you go. I mean, but the way I got poached was actually my through my colleagues at XG at Stripe, the colleagues that I liked at Stripe poached me into this.

35:58So they work there and they're like, let's get a mail. Yeah. Yeah. Some of my ex-colleagues at Stripe work there were settled, you know, few people, both, you know, in high, high, high leadership positions in engineering, you know, both like VP of engineering or distinguished engineer and then, you know, engineer and then another engineering leader kind of reached out and was like, hey, you know, and some of these people are also people that I knew pre-Stripe, you know, folks I've had like longtime friendships with, you know, like, you know, Maggie Johnson, Pence being the, I don't know, she's been on the pod before.

36:32And so, and all of this kind of was a funny timing for me, which maybe I'll get into the funny timing story later. But it's been this refreshing experience of working with really smart people on a very hard problem. And it's not just folks from Stripe, it's folks from many companies that you recognize, a lot of the first companies that you know on a first name basis. But it's like everybody's favorite people from the jobs that they've worked at. So it feels like we've collected like all these awesome people and we are all working together. And then we also have a lot of people that, you know, worked on like really high level stuff in the Air Force.

37:15And as you know, like the military has been a source of a lot of big innovation, like, except for I think Gen AI is the one thing that they've missed. And I think through our platform, hopefully we get to maybe help the government innovate on that because there's a huge AI play for us as well. But But, you know, it's just been really nice working with innovators who have this background from the military as well, you know, working on just like really hard problems, like, you know, just for the Air Force, for Space Force, you name it, like people who have this expertise. You know, there's this nice kind of adult culture that we have at the company, which has been really refreshing for me.

37:57you know kind of there's this like adolescent culture that kind of unfortunately is very pervasive in tech and I think it's just been really refreshing to be at a company where you know actually you don't really need to bring your whole self to work like you know we're just kind of like actually here for a job and you know like that yeah and then also just high high diversity too you know you realize like the military is actually one of the most diverse employers in the world. And so, so there's just like, you know, I'm a woman of color and I've just had like, yeah, it's just been just very refreshing seeing the level of diversity within the company, but also just the fact that like, no one really seems to care, like, you know, what your gender is or what your color is or whatever, like we're all just getting, getting things done, you know?

38:40And so I think, you know, that's just been, it's also just been really just refreshing on a personal level. Yeah. Yeah. So you're working on a digital engineering, digital threading platform. When I met you, you were all about the web platform. You're kind of moving to a different platform now, right? Like, is the web just not part of your life as much? Is the web a deployment target? Does it play a role? And obviously, like, web tech certainly does, APIs, HTTP, et cetera. But is the web less important in your life these days? Yeah, you know, that's a really deep question. I mean, so I am pretty much like exclusively working on software that like, you know, working on like platform services and software that lives on, you know, that's installed on OSs.

39:30Yeah. Things that like I'm just deep in. Obviously, we've got, you know, we work on, you know, we have clients, we have SDKs and things. No TypeScript. You're just no TypeScript. I'm not touching or dealing with TypeScript on a day to day basis. You hear that, Nick, Nisi? Neither of us are. wonderful internal UI for our app and all of that jazz, but that is not the, yeah, that is not, that is not my domain. Are you actually coding? Are you, are you, uh, speccing? How, what are you doing? Are you vibe coding? All of the above, no vibe coding. Yeah. Oh my God. Yeah. Um, all of the above. Yeah. You know, writing software, um, doing a lot of architecture and design, not spending as much time as I want writing software.

40:09And that's always been a challenge when you're a lead, you know, cause you're in so many meetings, but, um, very involved with, you know, the actual design and rollout and of, of like what we're doing day to day. And then, yeah, it's, it's, uh, you know, I basically lead a, an integrations platform. So we, we manage the interface and for how things connect into our platform, which is, you know, I, and I've leveraged all my expertise, you know, everything, my, my NPM background, what I've created is essentially something very similar to MCP actually. What's it? Oh, model context protocol. Yes. Yeah.

40:42Right. Cause we, well, I, that's an acronym that I know. But I don't know much else beyond the acronym. I know the acronym and I know what they're trying to do, but I'm not sure. I don't know the protocol at all. So and very few of us probably do. It's pretty new stuff. So feel free to elaborate if you want to. Yeah, sure. So, I mean, essentially, I run a team that like one of the one of the things that my team owns is agents. So we actually have agents that like do the tasks, do the work, you know, and we have an integration. We have an interface, a standard interface for how, you know, these third party integrations connect.

41:11And, you know, and that was kind of my my first baby when I joined Asari was like, oh, we're just what we need. We need a clean way of doing this integration like this is a third party integration. And so we kind of have something very similar to package managers. Right. Like where we have different packages that can get installed and, you know, how those things get managed and published and registered is all very, you know, borrowed a lot from my experience working at NPM. And what we've done is kind of created the standard way for any third party package, any third party tool to connect and integrate in with our agents.

41:45Right. And so that our agents can like do do the things that our users want to do on the other side. Right. So we have functions that can be invoked that users can invoke. And yeah, so I'm like I feel like I'm getting into the weeds and I'm like, I don't you know, this is where I'd want to have like a screen and like pull up a demo. but um but yeah so we we don't have a demo available so we don't yeah we don't we don't have a demo right now we don't have a screen but like um i i think it'll be worth it like once we're a little further along and we've actually just started to come out of stealth um we have you know we've been talking to a lot of a lot of customers you know we we have you know many customers who again you you would know on a first name basis but we in terms of like beyond our customers, like we're just starting to come out of stealth.

42:33And so I think it'd be worth it to, to even just, um, once we're further along, I'd be happy to kind of come back on the show, maybe with, um, with Maggie, who's our head of a product, you know, to kind of actually just talk through like, what is this? Um, and we are, we are hiring. Can I make a plug? Sure. Go for it. I'm sure our listeners would love to hear about someone hiring. That's always good right now. We want hires. Yeah. If you're an infra engineer or, you know, hiring for also people for my team um please yeah how do they what do they do they can't go to the website on linkedin find me on linkedin are you gonna be there i will be i have a linkedin i just dm me and yes yes there you go i i basically said that as soon as we update our website i will update my linkedin okay so it's like a like a standoff it's like playing chicken you know it is yes but no dm me dm me if you're um and uh yeah well i'd love to talk about it more but um but i Basically, the long story short is I am in an exciting job that is super challenging and working on really complex problems and also a lot of complex constraints.

43:40Like, for example, I'm not working on SaaS anymore. And so this isn't just a pure SaaS. Yeah. Heck with the web. Done with the web. No, we're not done with the web. I'm not done with the web. But this is not just a purely SaaS problem. We can host it and we do host it, but it's also you can run this fully on-prem. And so, you know, having to design under a lot of constraints where something should be able to be fully on-prem, something should be able to be fully functional in an air-gapped environment, right? Like imagine basically our software. How do you connect threads together in an air-gapped environment?

44:12Doesn't even make sense. Through the internet. Well, it's air-gapped. There's no internet. No, it's not. It's not internet. I said intranet. Oh, intranet. Yeah. Okay. When I think air-gapped, I think like you have to walk over to the computer to put something into it. Because there's no network at all. Yeah, it's an internal network. Internal network. Gotcha. Internal network. Nothing from the outside. Right, right, right. Yeah. So you have these different deployment targets, on-prem, hosted. Yeah. What? Multi-cloud. Multi-cloud. Multi-cloud. AWS, Azure, GCP, OCI. Will it run on my phone? Not just AWS.

44:50You guys, AWS commercial and AWS, all the gov clouds, right? All the secure clouds too. Like it's, it's, it's, which is its own thing. I've learned so much. I've learned like it, it not, not run on your phone yet. Maybe, maybe someday. Well, that would be like the last deployment target. That or my, my dishwasher. I mean, what are you guys, what are you building over there? It's kind of running on everything. Everything, everything. Again, everything platform that runs on everything. It really is. And so that's why it's, this is like an exceptionally hard problem. And it's not just, you know, and, and, you know, my team, we were, you know, we own the agents, we own a lot of platform services, you know, we have stuff that we, we basically can, we're in the integration.

45:26So we're like, we touch everything, we're in the middle of everything. And so it's also just, you know, yeah, like, I think even just like hiring and for this team, you know, like, you're looking for someone that is comfortable stretching themselves, not just, you know, on in terms of stack, but in terms of like, you know you're comfortable working on windows targets on you know on on you know like red hat like enterprise linux like sure you know you know like you name it like we have to support it right windows 95 you gotta run on everything gotta run on everything so you're in charge of the of agents like how do you find agents working today or and i don't know i have so many questions about agents.

46:12Like, what are they? Where's their intelligence coming from? Like, what models are being deployed? And are they good? I mean, I just feel like agents are still a promise, but not a reality. Right. I you know, I feel I don't know, I feel like I was been working on agents before they were cool, I feel like, right? Because it's been a year, a year or so, but like a year plus for a star. I've just been, I've been there a year. And so basically think about it this way. They're like the robots of the future in the sense that like, we need machines to be able to do remote execution for us and to be able to like remotely execute on tasks and remotely do work.

46:51Right. And so in theory, like they should be really dumb, but like, then how do we make them smart? You know? And so we make them smart through our integrations through like, you know, here's this like here's an integration here's you know here's code for you to uh go um use this third party module right like some third party tool and so give that model some context it's model context exactly right right exactly you know and then all the functions but like but ultimately these are robots that are basically just following instructions you know they're just kind of performing remote tasks and so you know we need to i mean we kind of you know i feel like we started this dance to some degree um you know with edge computing right like oh we need to be able to do compute on the edge you know what i mean and so now we need to be able to do more than just like compute we need to be able to like have interactive compute on any edge right like and our agents are designed to like run on supercomputers they're designed to run on your desktop or designed to run on anything you know what i mean that's the other thing that can you trust them can you trust them to run on anything like are they not going to execute the wrong thing out there right right Right.

47:53And that's exactly why we have something called the control plane and the data plane, right? Like our agents don't, our control plane doesn't speak to agents. Agents speak to the control plane. And so, you know, so there's just a secure communication flow, you know, like. Like it's one way. Right. And like, you know, all the MTLS and like. I don't know what that is. Just encrypted like. Okay. So TLS with an M on front of it. Yes. Okay. I do know what it is. Yeah. Right.

48:24I'm with you. I'm back. There's just, yeah, there's a lot of, and then, you know, you know, pat generation, right? Like, you know, tokens, there's a whole, there's a, there's ways to make this secure. It is secure. Like we, again, like security, like this is, sorry, it's essentially, you know, our target is working with like the most classified, most sensitive information. Right. So like this, you know, secure is kind of core to security and and and being secure is core to core to everything you know so so yeah so i like again like i said why it's a hard problem and i i can't get into like everything sure sure sure can you talk about models or is that proprietary like models like what models are these agents using for their intelligence are you using llama is it deep seek do you have your own models that you've trained like yeah i can't i don't think i can get into that.

49:14Okay. Yeah, I know. Like I said, like once, once we're further, I will, I'm excited to, would you use one of these to like, uh, buy yourself something off of Amazon? Like I would. Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. Like, Hey, go get me a new sweater. You will, you, you, you can, it can do anything you instructed to do anything that a module, you know, anything that's in a, any function that's in a module is what it can do. So if you trust the module author, you know, know you can have it do whatever you want so the agent is like a little program that runs other programs in a remote context exactly okay interesting yeah robot of the future have you thought and talked about agentic coding much this is slightly upstream but it's also in the world of agents yeah no i i've like read a little bit yeah and i've even seen some changelog stuff come up come up through on that like i mean i think you know what's interesting is like there's so much innovation and change right now everything is like you know we're just kind of grasping and like it feels like a mound that's like continually shaping and reshaping like i just saw something like oh is diffusion dead like you know like the thing that was so popular just like what two years ago or something or like one and a half you know so it's just like everything is morphing everything is shaping we are we are shaping and defining our future like day by day hour by hour at this point And so, yeah, I'm not like over-invested in kind of keeping up with like all the specifics of the hype train, if that makes sense.

50:49Right. You know, it's just for sanity. What I do know is that I am building for the future. And I've gone through my own journey with AI and usage of AI and, you know, and basically like what I'm doing and, you know, we're building a reference architecture to scale, you know, with LLMs. Yeah, that's kind of what we're doing at Astaria as well. Take us on your journey.

51:17Well, friends, I'm here with a good friend of mine, David Hsu, the founder and CEO of Retool. So, David, I know so many developers who use Retool to solve problems, but I'm curious. Help me to understand the specific user, the particular developer who is just loving Retool. Who's your ideal user? Yeah, so for us, the ideal user of Retool is someone whose goal, first and foremost, is to either deliver value to the business or to be effective. Where we candidly have a little bit less success is with people that are extremely opinionated about their tools. If, for example, you're like, hey, I need to go use WebAssembly, and if I'm not using WebAssembly, I'm quitting my job, you're probably not the best Retool user, honestly.

52:03However, if you're like, hey, I see problems in the business and I want to have an impact and I want to solve those problems, Retool is right up your alley. And the reason for that is Retool allows you to have an impact so quickly. You could go from an idea, you go from a meeting like, hey, you know, this is an app that we need to literally having the app built in 30 minutes, which is super, super impactful on the business. So I think that's the kind of partnership or that's the kind of impact that we'd like to see with our customers. You know, from my perspective, my thought is that, well, Retool is well known.

52:33Retool is somewhat even saturated. I know a lot of people who know Retool, but you've said this before. What makes you think that Retool is not that well-known? Retool today is really quite well-known amongst a certain crowd. Like I think if you had a poll like engineers in San Francisco or engineers in Silicon Valley even, I think you'd probably get like a 50, 60, 70 % recognition of Retool. I think where you're less likely to have heard of Retool is if you're a random developer at a random company in a random location, like the Midwest, for example, or like a developer in Argentina, for example, you're probably less likely.

53:09And the reason is, I think we have a lot of really strong word of mouth from a lot of Silicon Valley companies, like the Brex's, Coinbase's, DoorDash's, Stripes, et cetera, of the world. There's a lot of chat, Airbnb is another customer, NVIDIA is another customer. So there's a lot of chatter about Retool in the Valley. But I think outside of the Valley, I think we're not as well known. And that's one goal of ours, to go change that. Well, friends, now you know what Retool is. You know who they are. You're aware that Retool exists. And if you're trying to solve problems for your company, you're in a meeting, as David mentioned, and someone mentions something where a problem exists.

53:43And you can easily go and solve that problem in 30 minutes, an hour, or some margin of time that is basically a nominal amount of time. And you go and use Retool to solve that problem. That's amazing. Go to retool.com and get started for free or book a demo. It is too easy to use Retool and now you know. So go and try it. Once again, retool.com.

54:13Take me on your journey. Well, there's a lot of feelings. So my journey has just been like, you know, it was just like terrified first, right? Because it's like, what is this? Right. It's like, oh, you know, and then you use it. I don't like new things. This is scary. Yeah, sure. And then you use it and you figure out, okay, actually, you know, this is really useful. And now I use AI multiple times a day, like every day, you know, and, you know, to do my work, to check my work, to like help clean up docs, you know, to write tests, whatever it is, right? Like, but there's just kind of this, you know, what I don't like that's going on is this, this, this hype from, you know, these, you know, founders, you know, perplexity founders or whoever founders that are just like in 12 months, like all, all code will be written by AI.

54:58And like, you know, things like that are just, you know, you have to be, they have to be taken with a grain of salt. These are people selling products, you know, they're not gods, they cannot predict the future. And also like, the role of the software engineer feels like it's very much shifting in the sense that like, I think we have to accept that AI is here, right? Like we have to get to a place of acceptance. And so, you know, how are we building and incorporating this into our products? How are we delivering more value for our customers using AI? Not just kind of the slap on experience, but like how are we truly integrating this into our products in a way that makes sense, that solves problems faster for customers or internally or externally?

55:38And like, I think, yeah, I think the, you know, it's okay to be afraid. Like, I think that's normal and expected. Like I can say, I don't, for me, I don't know if it was, it probably was. It was like, it was FUD, you know? It was like fear, uncertainty, doubt. It's probably a mix of what I had. But I think being kind of more future focused, I actually think this is a pretty exciting time if you're willing to just kind of shut your fear, mute your fear for a second, and actually just kind of see the opportunities ahead, which I think are actually pretty plentiful if you're willing to dig in and lean in.

56:20And unfortunately, this is yet another thing that's volatile and shifting for us. You know, it's like, man, like, can we ever get a break in tech? Like, you know, can I just get like one month of stability? You know, like, just please, you know, but, but, you know, this is, this is the job. This is the, this is the self-flatulating industry that we've all picked. And so here we are, you know, like, it's just. We got a shiny new wheel that we reinvented. You better get that new wheel. right right but i don't know what do you think so i mean i think medium term i'm definitely i don't i'm not going to say the word bullish because i'm not necessarily i think bullish implies that you're also excited about it um but like i'm confident that our day-to-day work as now i'm talking about software engineering um not necessarily product development but i i think that our day-to-day work is changing and is going to continue to change over the next 18, 24 months.

57:22I don't know exactly where it plateaus or if it plateaus. I feel like I've hit a few plateaus over the last 24 months. But every time you plateau, then there's like something, like you said, it's a month goes by and something else. And so I think where the agentic coding, where the AI is actually writing the code for you is the next question mark for me, where it's like, is this actually going to be the future? Because I think it's pretty clear that it's found its use in our lives as an autocompletor, as a rubber duck programmer, right? Right. And we're okay with it, like spitting out boilerplate that we then agree to and change or whatever.

58:08but where the real gains can be had in productivity is like can i have a fleet of little ai agents and i send them off to do things and they're better than me at it anyways and they do the things and they come back and i'm done or i'm i'm moving on to my next thing which some people think is like happening or will happen in the next 12 months i'm just not that's why i asked you like do you trust your agents because i'm just not so sure if and when that's going to be like human out of the loop you know because honestly if i make fun of vibe coding all the time mostly because i think it's a really fun term like i'm really glad it got coined i've made a bunch of memes about it but if vibe coding could actually be the future of coding like if they could get that good it's going to be dramatically different it's going to be very exciting it's gonna be very scary for people who make their life their their careers coding yeah yeah and i'm not sure long term if it's actually going to deliver on that promise that's why i ask people when agents come up like how good are these suckers because there are those who think you know i most recently read the steve yeggie post the revenge of the junior developer i covered that in changelog news of course he works at source graph and so i said that on the show i'm like he's selling tools that are going to put ai agents into your ide and so he's incentivized to be bullish on this but he's saying you know fleets of agents are going to 10x 100x in the next 12 months our ability to write code at

1:00:15And he's a smart person. type now let's go build the thing i'm not sure that's why i ask everybody how they feel about agents i feel like the agents you that you guys are deploying are different than coding agents yeah yeah but they are different but i think for us you know our goal is for to you know we want to have an lm be able to write our integrations right right like that's the way we scale otherwise it's like a boil the ocean prop ocean problem right because every every every company every customer has their own stack and da da da da da, right? And so that's kind of what we're working towards.

1:00:47I think in terms of the coding agents that you talk about, like, you know, just putting my, like taking my Histari hat off, right? And putting my like ML engineer hat on. Like, you know, it's like, I'm not personally convinced that like we're ever going to have humans out of the loop if you want production software running, right? Like we, I mean, not this decade anyway, right? Right. Like, I'm kind of with you, but then I have to like check my bias and be like, is that because I'm a curmudgeon? No, no, I don't think it is because you need an AI to check the AI to check the AI. But can't you just do that?

1:01:22Like they do have AIs. You know, one of the problems with hallucinations can be solved by simply having another one that checks the original one and being like, nah, that doesn't sound right. And so while we can't get to like 100 % accuracy with this current technology, because they are just, you know, next word predictors, you can have AIs that watch AIs that watch AIs. And if you have enough of that, you can like, you know, on an infinite scale approach zero. And so you can kind of solve that problem by literally having AIs watching AIs watching AIs. Yeah, but at that point, it just becomes a matter of like compute and complexity and you're managing a different set of problems.

1:02:00So you're just trading one bag of problems for another. And also like, I'm sorry, like, or is there a problem with using humans? Like, yeah, we humans using AI to go faster. It seems like the best compromise, right? In the sense that like, I think that's, that's, you know, the kind of, um, you know, having the AI speed pack, I think, you know, the, the AI jet pack on a human, I think for me is what actually like the future looks like. I think that's a surefire win. I agree with you that that's going to be, and is even today, even at the most basic levels now the way i use ai in my coding which is basic right i'm basic yeah i'm basically i'm not intended there i have just i don't do any of the fancy stuff yeah all i do is instead of ever getting a google search okay anything that i would have previously just pasted into google yeah i just paste it into llm instead yeah and that even just that move is probably like a 20 percent speed up boost over the google path because the google path requires you to go read the result click on this blog oh this person doesn't know what they're talking about go back go out here's a stack overflow thread oh that's not exactly my problem and so like of course the lm is going to be wrong one in ten but those odds are better yeah it's just better so it's better than google and so me plus that is better than me plus google for sure like i'm i'm convinced of that.

1:03:20And so I think that as those things increase, those like automatic wins for human engineers to be better, like we just need to swipe those up and use them, you know, as engineers. But at a certain point, yeah, how good is it going to get is the question that I don't have the answer to. Okay, so, so I hear that. Here's, here's where my, where I'm coming from, right? And And I'm sure people would, there's many people who would disagree with this, but maybe not that many actually. But ultimately, like your code has to be compliant, right? If you have, if you're running software for any business, like any business that's doing anything meaningful, you know, whether it's, you know, finance, education, et cetera, like there's some level of compliance that you have to adhere to.

1:04:07And so if you can't, if you don't actually know what's in there, right. And you can't, like, you don't have a human in the loop guarantee. Like you can't certify guarantee. Like I, for me, like there's just a giant compliance problem that I see, you know, and then there's also just lots of code that's sensitive, you know, like whether it's like financial algorithms and, and, and, and, and, you know, there's just a lot of kind of, you know, many, you know, critical software that like is dealing with like sensitive transactions. Right. Sure. So that's the other thing. And then, you know, we've seen now with the recent vibe coding, right, like how easy it is to hack these apps because they're so poorly made, right?

1:04:47Like, you know, there's just like, sure, people who don't have a software background can write apps by all means. Like, let's democratize that. Go for it. But if you're trying to write something for in a production context that needs to be compliant and secure and scalable and, you know, where you can actually fix a production problem like within a timely manner and basically any code that needs to run a real business that's like dealing with critical or sensitive and important stuff. like I I just I don't I don't see how this scales right and that maybe this is my like my 2025 basic mind you know she can't she basic lines think alike isn't that what you said on yeah right right like yeah this is you know she she doesn't she doesn't she can't see the future it's you know yada da da da but like ultimately like I'm just trying to understand like why is where's all this poo poo talk to where like why are we poo pooing software engineers like this is what I'm just don't understand is like, I feel like there's this attitude of like, oh, you know, we don't need developers anymore.

1:05:51We can be able to do this and that. And like, I just like what, what have developed, I'm sorry, what have, okay. So I, what have developers really done to kind of deserve this type of rhetoric? Like, do you know what I'm talking about, Jared? Like you, you've seen that, right. Where it's just like, people are excited that like software engineering jobs are going to be reduced or diminished or, or, or software engineer roles or software engineers are going to have like less responsibility or whatever. Like there's just like this like celebration of like, of, um, I don't even want to call it a downfall, but like in a perceived downfall.

1:06:24And I just don't really, I don't really understand where that's coming from, you know? And I think for me, like the only thing I can chalk it up to, like keeping it totally real is the fact that like, you know, software engineers are, you know, we have, we have been able to assert some type of agency in this world, right? Like we're well-paid. Yeah. You know, we're not in the like wealth, wealth class, but we're not like, you know, most, most people are like upper middle class, at least in North America. For sure. And so, you know, like, we're like a group that has some agency, right? And we've also been able, like, in terms of like being able to switch jobs or whatever else.

1:06:58I know recent years have been tough, but generally speaking for experienced engineers, like, I certainly, I certainly still feel like I have agency, you know, I get hit up for, for stuff, you know? And so I'm just trying to understand like where, like why this hate towards, towards developers, you know? I don't know if you have thoughts. I do. I mean, I feel like, I feel like anything I could say would be generalizing because I think there's lots of different reasons why people might be excited about that. One of the memes that I made about vibe coding was, you know, the exit ramp meme where it's like a car going on the highway and it could be going straight, but then there's an exit ramp and the car's like pulling a hard right yeah yeah well i made one of those because i had you know copious free time and like the straight path and so in the car was the startup guy or the idea guy i think i called it yeah and like the straight path was like code school you know because that's really the the ilk of the startup guy the the idea guy specifically and gal just a gender neutral guy they get it it's all it's most of the time it's guys honestly yeah it just is is that they don't have any ability to build what their idea is right and so they're looking for a technical co-founder like that's a that's a trope that's a real thing yeah and it's the plight of them because they can't actually do what they want to do because they can't do what they want to do okay so like the old way was like code school and we'd be like yo just go to code school work hard for you know however long it's going to take you and then you can build your idea and then the exit ramp now is this guy going vibe code school you know he's going to vibe code school yeah because now he can vibe code it and that's very empowering to idea guys and i feel like and this is just one particular stereotype okay like i said lots of different reasons but we have had agency we've also had kind of superpowers where it's like, we can take your idea and we can build it.

1:08:56And that's very valuable in the marketplace. But also if I have an idea, I just build that idea. Amel, if you have an idea, you just build it. Just build it. Yeah. When I have time. Yes. Yeah, exactly. We don't actually, we aren't actually very good and our ideas kind of suck and there's lots of reasons why we still fail, but that's been a superpower for software engineers for ever since, you know, maybe the dawn of the internet. We could just take an idea without permission, build it, put it on the internet, you know, be the next Jeff Bezos or whatever it is. Right. Now other people think that maybe this is going to get them there and we're not necessary anymore.

1:09:32So that's one possible reason why people are excited for the demise of the software engine here. It's like, well, we don't need you guys anymore. Maybe. Yeah, no, I think that I think there's something to that. Like we've been a bottleneck, right? And I think that's like it's not a, you know, and a frustrating one, right? Because, you know, you know, there's so much of, you know, unfortunately, one of the problems in our industry is, you know, we have this. So an industry, unfortunately, in our industry, we fetishize a handful of companies, you know, a handful of companies, everyone wants to work, you know, on, you know, for these handful of companies, and you have the, you know, brilliant software minds, like highly underutilized at this handful of companies, such that really smart people are working on things like animating poop emojis, right?

1:10:17When they could be really solving critical problems for the government, they could, you know, in education, colleges, like, you know, all kinds of industries, every industry needs to like level up its technology and digital transformation. There's just so much work to do, but we kind of, you know, we're not, we're not line balanced, you know, when it comes to where people are working and or where they want to work and or what they're working on. Right. And so I hope that this, this period that we're in, you know, in our industry kind of helps improve our line balance, right. Like, so that we're more balanced across like all the industries that need our support, but ultimately like we have been a bad bottleneck for all these people who can't hire good talent because either they're too expensive or there's too few of us.

1:11:05Right. Right. So that's definitely one thing. And another thing is that like, you know, yes, like time is a real limiting factor and AI lets us do more with our time. And, you know, so that's fantastic. However, there's something called physics and like real world, like constraints, like, you know, time and like your body and all this other stuff. And so, you know, there was a study that was done on like languages and like, no matter like how fast you might think like Vietnamese sounds or, or Mandarin sounds or, you know, or how slow you think English sounds like the actual average, like words per minute, like, you know, spoken in, in any language, like, you know, is actually roughly translates to be about the same.

1:11:47And so it's, you know, which says something about like your brain's ability to process information, right? Like we are still like singular human beings. We're bandwidth constrained. We're bandwidth, right? So, so yes, we can do more and all the things, but ultimately like doing more also means managing more, right? So it's one of those things where like, if I, you know, if my team is now shipping and, you know, shipping more and more features, each feature we ship needs some amount of maintenance, right? And so ultimately, like, you know, like, if, if the same amount of people keep making more work, but not having like, you know, but we're not maintaining it, like it, there's, there's a, you know, like that math doesn't really add up, right?

1:12:24Like, and so, so yes, doing more means we need more, right? So So this is where I go back to like, I don't see how this, any of the scales without people, right? Because yes, we can do more and produce more, but all of that code ultimately needs to live on infra. It needs to be maintained. It needs security patches. Yes, we're going to have AI be able to do a lot of it, but there's still going, you know, with more AI generating stuff, there's still going to need, like, we're still, you know, we might not need, we might not need as many people, but we still need people, right? And so by kind of us exponentiating via AI, I think there's still a growth curve for engineers, like a big one, actually.

1:13:05And so that's just, you know, maybe I'm conservative, but I mean, that's kind of where I stand. And it's very frustrating to me to see this, like, this kind of all these AI startup founders, you know, just kind of rejoicing at the, you know, they're just, they're just brushing off the value that software engineers bring. Like, while all of these LLMs have been trained on work produced by software engineers, actually, you know what I mean? It's like, and like, and, and, and, right? Not just trained on, but like, you know, who produced this stuff? Who's rolling out this stuff, right? Like I'm just, it's just, it's, it's, I don't know.

1:13:42It's, we should be more angry about it. Let's just, I'll just, I'll just put it, put it there. Well, they're disruptors and now they're trying to disrupt the industry because there's lots of money to be made. If you can make software without all of the people that you have to pay to make software or if you can sell the tools that allow other people to do that, that's what a lot of these companies are trying to be is the, you know, the pickaxe sales people, uh, during the gold rush. and the gold rush is the new gold rush is vibe coding. I mean, that's exactly it. It is exactly it. It's exactly it, you know?

1:14:16And so it's like, you know what? It's fine. Like let, let people figure it out and fail. Like this is why we have open markets and free markets, you know, like ultimately, you know, there's room for experimentation and whatnot. It's just, it's just the challenge in our industry is that like, there's, I don't think, you know, we don't have us like, we don't have the best leaders, you know, because there's, there's something called FOMO and like domino effects of FOMO and people just feeling like they're missing out and they, they act on imperfect, um, information and they follow trends that are not really, you know, actually like, well, like, you know, like well intended, well, well thought out, well, whatever.

1:14:58Right. Like there's just, um, things happen that I think, you know, yeah, people just, there's just, yeah, people act on hype more than they should basically. that's that's to put it simply let me take the other side of this for a moment because you and i are pretty much in agreement we're also in similar places in our careers and um one of the reasons why steve yeggie called this post that he wrote which it's a good read you know he's a good writer so it's it's it's entertaining alongside him making his points but he called it the revenge of the junior developer and the reason why he said that is because he's noticed that junior devs or non-devs who are trying to get into it are way more open to accepting and trying and really trying to push the edge of these new technologies specifically around you know agents coding and by coding and all these things whereas seniors and more experienced developers you know we're still testing the waters and stuff or some of which are like write it off and never going to use it but we're just more um stuck in our ways and i guess i in that sense anti-democratization because it's kind of like and so from our perspective our bias might be that way because in a very real way like you've worked really hard to get where you are and so i i mean maybe not really hard but i put some work in and you probably worked harder than i did we don't need to compare you know we've been in the industry a long time we can both pat each other on the back that's right that's right but you know we're builders so like you can bring me your idea and i could build it and that didn't grow on a tree or that wasn't gifted to me by god when i was born you know i worked hard to get there and so like seeing people potentially be able to just acquire our skills without any effort maybe that hurts a little bit maybe we don't like that you know there's a little bit of i don't call it gatekeeping maybe it's guarding the castle you know because It's like this castle was hard to build and I'm valuable now as a, as a worker because of the skills I've acquired.

1:17:03And I don't know, maybe I don't want that to go away. And so I prefer not to believe that it's going to. Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's really, it's, uh, it's, it's interesting you say that because like, I feel like I, I see the same kind of phenomena happen in the South, in the United States where, where they are trying, whenever they try to raise minimum wage past, like, you know, what it, I don't know. it's like something ridiculously low still in many, many parts of the country, like under$10, I think even, um, they, whenever they try to raise it to like an actual living wage, there's just so much pushback.

1:17:35And I feel like that pushback happens because people are like, well, like, you know, it took me years to make that kind of money and I don't want, you know, like, you know, it doesn't, doesn't make sense that like somebody would just get that right away. Like, you know, this, this feeling that people need to earn, earn, earn it, or go through the same level of effort, you know, that they did. And, you know, the reality is like, you know, sure, somebody using LMS, by all means, like, I don't like I still see myself as being senior to that person, like by a huge majority. I also think that having a software background with AI just puts me in a completely different like category, right?

1:18:12Like it exponentiates me in the same way that it exponentiates that other person who has zero knowledge, right? But I have like, you know, but these are like, it's exponentiation. So there's a high log factor to account for. So we're still not on the same level. And I think software engineers need to understand that. Like, and that's why I said like earlier, like acceptance is the first phase. And like the next phase is like, you've got to, you've got to, you've got to get moving on this stuff and start building for the future keyword being future, right? Like, because, because if you dig your heels in, and you're like, you know what, whatever, I'm gonna like, just show that I can do this from scratch, and I can do it the hard way and this and that, like, awesome, you know, but I don't, I don't think the skills that, you know, that we used to pride ourselves on are going to be as relevant anymore, specifically, like the like, free type coding for 20 minutes, because you've memorized all the syntax, like, you know, somebody is going to be able to code faster than you.

1:19:09This is Unix. I know this. Like, yeah. Like, you know, like 10 times, like a bajillion times faster than you. So like, just, you gotta like, we have to, we have to relearn some things, you know, in terms of the way we work. But I think this is all part of like the next phase of, of, you know, what it means to be a senior software engineer in 2025. Right. Right. Like it's, it's just, we have just new. yeah just new benchmarks new ways of working um i think these are conversations we need to be having more i think just they haven't been happening enough um and uh you know it's just also just quite frankly it's still a very challenging time you know but um you know in terms of the market the job market you know so for sure and i think that's a really good point and to just to draw a gross analogy or a basic just to get back to basics you know if we talk about a pickaxe you know imagine somebody who had spent years you know trying to dig gold with their hands and then the pickaxe comes along and it's like hey guys i've been digging gold with my hand you know i've been digging my hands and now you get a pickaxe so two points exactly the first one is you also get a pickaxe okay so your life's better now so just grab the pickaxe and the other thing is do you know how strong you got while you were like digging rocks up with your bare hands and so when you put a pickaxe in your hand you're going to be better at it stronger you know it's a gross analogy, then the person who just, you know, came off the streets and you hand them a pickaxe, you have skills.

1:20:38You can actually leverage the tool better than other people can. And so don't forego the pickaxe because you got really good at using your hands, like grab that sucker and be good at it. You got it. You got it. You got it. You know, and, and I think also just remember y 'all like this is, yes, this is our industry. You know, for me, I have a lot of passion that I bring to my job that I and I have a lot of passion towards this industry, because, you know, it helps me solve problems, it helps me, you know, build cool stuff, yada, dada, dada, right? Like, I'm very intellectually satisfied. And like, you know, like, this is like a huge source of like, you know, there's there's some value there for me.

1:21:17However, this is also just a job. And I think, you know, now more than ever, we really need to be focusing on, like, not just boundaries, but just understanding that like, you know, there's more to life than tech, you know, because it's so ubiquitous. It's just important to remind yourself that like, you know, yeah, you know, just because AI is here doesn't mean that you need to spend like, you know, another start another eight hour shift when you're home. Like, you know, you know, it's, it's no, like, you've got to find balance and just take care of yourself and your bodies. Because I think what's going to happen with this, you know, this Ferrari that everybody has now is It's like, you know, you can't be driving the Ferrari all the time.

1:21:56It's a lot, you know. It's a lot of cognitive overhead and overload that comes with this stuff. So, yeah, I think we're still figuring out like how, you know, how we balance the, you know, the physics of our humanity with this like, with this kind of quote unquote like infinite like superpower, you know. We're just, I think that's still TBD. But to that point. to that point. Yes. Yes. I think we're going to get to my favorite topic. Do you want to talk about having a baby? I mean, you had a baby. I had a baby, everyone. I got an upgrade to mom. Yeah. There's a title no one can take away from you, right?

1:22:36Seriously. No. And that's, that's it. Like I, becoming a mother has been a centering and clarifying experience and actually, you know, it's a surprising side effect happened as well, which is actually me being more confident and efficient at work even. Right. Right. Like I, and I was, I felt like I was already pretty confident, probably could have, could have been more efficient, but generally pretty efficient. And I think it's just, it just comes down to that age old saying of like, you know, if you want something done, give it to a busy person, you know? Right. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's, that's a classic.

1:23:12Yeah. I'm like, I knew you're busier than you've ever been busier than I've got to get stuff done. Cause you don't have time to screw shed all the things we just gotta get it moving yeah there is a clarity that comes from like what's actually important here oh yeah when you just don't have time to dork around you know you're like no i'm not gonna i'm not gonna spend a half hour on what color this bike shed should be exactly exactly that's exactly and so it's just been this thing that has brought i feel like it's been like a fluff compressor like you know like you know like a pillow like you take a pillow that has all the air and then if you like scrunch it down like it's like oh this pillow is actually like a lot smaller without the air.

1:23:51Like I feel like I had all the air being fluff in my life or something along and I was already like, you know, they had a lot going on. But like, now it's just I really impressed for time. And so, you know, it's, yeah, it's just it's just in real like do mode. And I think also, you know, problem that I've had historically in my life was, you know, being a perfectionist and, you know, wanting everything to be perfect. And I think that's also just I've had really good practice with just like, Oh, no, actually, no, this doesn't have to be perfect. Like it's brought me to this like new phase of my life as well, which has been very healthy.

1:24:25Um, and again, productive, right. Um, cause you know, you're, you're just, you're, you're not letting perfect get in the way of good, you know? And so you don't have a choice anymore. Exactly. And so you also don't get to sleep very much. Do you? I mean, actually how old your child? So my son is, uh, he's turning six months. Okay. So you're outside of the real heart area was he is he a good sleeper though he is thank goodness yeah we're in like he's been sleeping like you know eight hours oh yeah that helps since like he was three months and so thank god because it was i you know i took like three and a half months off of work and uh he was just he you know just in time for for for for returning to work yeah um but no i i you know it's just one of the reasons why i you know life just got very busy i was just at this you know Astari has been like, whoa, I mean, weird.

1:25:16I've never worked at the pace that I have while not feeling an ounce of burnout. And then that's just amazing. And I realized like, oh, you know, why is it that I felt burnt out at other jobs? And it's like, oh, it's because like burnout isn't necessarily about working hard. It's like, it's actually when you don't feel like you're making as much traction as you should be and you're working really hard and things aren't moving. You know, you get burnt out sometimes or when you don't get the gratification back, you know but it's just been this really nice like work hard get done ship make a difference kind of like and you know um working with a in a high high trust environment um with really smart kind people in a rapid fashion um has just been really for me at this stage in my career like i feel like i'm bringing it all together like i'm bringing in all of my skills you know alignment design um you know working on, you know, complex problems, like all the experience that I have just in software engineering from all the jobs are coming into this role.

1:26:16And I get to kind of exercise all these skills, leadership, you name it. And it's just been really fun. I didn't, this is, like I said, I didn't know I was going to enjoy early startup this much. I hope to be able to kind of just stay with the story. And like I said, just kind of retire. That's, that's my goal. I don't want to, I don't want to work anywhere else. I was going to say, I think stability at this point is probably attracted to you because you've had a lot of jobs over a not very long time i mean you've moved a lot yeah right and and that and moving is also like uh it's um that moving is just come from like impatience on my part like i like in the you know um minus the npm layoff really everything else is just like me being impatient and being like oh i'm done like you know what i mean right like you know and and so uh yeah like i think so it's just so that's nice that that part is nice um and then what else yeah it's just just it's just amazing like being a mom from home then i mean a lot of the challenges are around logistics of course the timing like the baby's crying while you're in a meeting like stuff like that yeah it's it's honestly been you know knock on wood you know thank god it's been a problem extremely smooth i have nice we have a five bedroom house.

1:27:33I have childcare right in my house. You know, I get to like, I'm nursing parent. I feed my son on like a, just get off camera. I'm telling people what to do and I'm feeding, feeding my kiddo. That's been awesome. So, you know, make sure my husband gets a photo of that at some point for our own internal memory book. But yeah, it's been, you know, just, stuff. It's, it's, it's, it's, you know, it's work. We're both busy. You know, and my mom's also coming to help. She's retiring. So then, you know, we're going to have even hopefully more help. Cool. But it's been, it's been seamless so far and just also just very rewarding.

1:28:12I actually already want to do this again. I was going to ask if you're going to scale, like, yeah, I want to scale. I want to, I want to scale. I want to do, I do want to do this again, which is like crazy because from like day zero to day 59, I was just like, this is amazing. I'm so glad we did this, but holy moly, like how do people do this more than once? And then day 60 hit and then it was just this shift instantly. I was like, oh, we're in a groove. We got this. Let's do this again. Like, can you believe it? Like it was just this like overnight switch. But no, I definitely want to do it again.

1:28:45I'm reserving the right to change my mind, but I think, you know, like in a year or two, I'd love to give this another world. um are you an only child i am not an only child i have two siblings but we are so far apart in age like it like i'm like yeah so i want to do something like not like that for my for my yeah you know i think only child is tough i mean we have a large family as you know and my wife came from a large family i'm one of three and uh older sister three years older and my brother was eight years younger than me 11 years younger than my sister and so he was i mean he's not an only child but kind of like you where it's like he was kind of raised we were already i mean i was in middle school when he was in a toddler and so he's kind of raised like an only child yeah and um i'll just seen like even our kids like we have built-in friendships like inside of your own family like there's just a safety and a and a blessing to that that i think is irreplaceable so yeah yeah i would definitely encourage you to scale you know have a few agents running around i oh my gosh i'm telling you, Jared, if I knew I was going to love being a mom this much, I would have done it like way sooner.

1:29:54Like I held off so long. And you know, the funny, the funny thing with the timing, by the way, I didn't get back to that. So I was like interviewing for like, I was this crazy person that was like, I want to go back to the office because I really miss being with my colleagues. And I was like, you know what, I want to start a job where I'm in the office once a week or so. So I was like interviewing for jobs out of New York city. I was going to commute into the city. We're going to get a little studio there. Yeah. Because we, my husband and I, we moved, we left Boston. We went, we went to the other side of Massachusetts.

1:30:24We like bought a house in the Berkshires. And so we're like two hours from Boston, two hours from New York now. And we spend a lot of time in both cities like still. And so I was like, Oh, we can just get like a studio in New York and I can be there like, you know, a few times a month. And I, you know, I was interviewing with, you know, I was like, um, actually my first choice, uh, was data dog. Like they had actually like, if you're listening to this, the person from Data, he listens to ChangeDog. They like were so generous and like made this, you know, incredible offer to lead this team that was very exciting to, you know, to me.

1:30:55And I just had to kind of walk away from that whole thing because I found out just as I was about to start my interviews that I was pregnant. I didn't think it was going to happen that quick. I was like, wait, what? No, I'm like, I'm in my like late 30s. Like there's no way. Like I think it was 37 at the time. And I was like, there's no way that I'm going to get pregnant this fast. Everybody I know has trouble getting pregnant. And I was like, I have like six to 12 months. I'm like, no problem. And it happened right away for us because I don't know how science works apparently. And, you know, I falsely applied statistics to myself that like, you know.

1:31:28Generalize. But you're not a generalization. You're a specific. Yeah. So, so I just, I thought, you know, there's no way I'm getting pregnant right now. And then I got pregnant and I was like, okay, well, this changes everything. and so I just kind of paused on all my like New York City jobs I was like I'm not going into an office and uh and then you know fortunately this starry thing came along uh you know um Maggie found out that I was like open and back on the back on the that I was like regrouping like you know that I was like um like re like figuring out what I like like I now need to just like focus on remote roles and uh and then she's like hey if you're open we're actually like hiring like we need we need you like so and that was and that was that was it that was how i that's how i got started so it's good to have friends people um keep in touch with your network for sure let them you know you never know where your next opportunity is going to come from so that's right yeah well exciting times happy to catch up with you and now i know the full story i'm i'm very excited for you and for your for your scale maybe you'll catch up with uh my wife and i one of these days i don't know i i don't know if you have enough time left 37 i you know i'm not 37 anymore actually but but uh but uh but i am north north of that but um but no i uh like yeah i'm telling you like if i if i can squeeze in two kids i i would love to but realistically like i think just like one more realistically you know um but um but hey you're not a statistic so you know go for the gusto and to see what happens nobody knows nobody knows their own body i'm just curious what what uh why did you decide to wait so long oh i it was um fear um really it was like i wasn't sure how i was gonna change you know i like i really i like my life like i like who i am i've worked really hard on myself you know professionally personally all the things and i was like really afraid of becoming one of those parents that just like just doesn't have a life and like doesn't do anything other than child stuff i've seen a lot of parents like that and um i was like i just didn't know like it was such a black box and so i think there was a lot of fear like i've been in a stable relationship for a long time like my husband and i have been together for a long time and so you know um it wasn't like anything relationship wise that was holding me back it was really just fear of the unknown.

1:33:54And then it was just kind of like, oh, we're just going to do this. And like, I didn't even think about it. Like, if any of ChangeLog listeners see me in person, I will tell you the story of how I found out. It's a little too personal to share in like a 10 ,000 person podcast, but it's like, it's a pretty funny story. And, you know, like, it took me not thinking about it to do it because, you know, if I think if I think if I continue to think about it, I would have just never done it you know what i mean it just had to kind of just whatever go for it um rip off the band-aid rip off the band-aid but it was really fear that was holding me back and now i know now i know that i'm still me and i'm still yeah actually not only am i still me but i'm still motivated like in a way that like i feel is coming from a place that's even more stable and you know there's no vanity, right?

1:34:48It's like, I'm, I want to do well so that I can take care of my family. You know what I mean? And I now have somebody depending on me, you know? And so it just changes the stakes. Like it's no longer, you know, just like doing well for the sake of doing well. Like there's something more meaningful behind it. Not to say that people who don't have children don't have, like, that's not what I'm saying. It's just that like, you know, my motivations are now driven, you know i think from a more yeah like an extra a more you have a less van van yeah less van van it like a less vain external like dependency you got a dependency yeah now you know you got a supply chain you gotta work on yeah yeah and and i think it's just like all the things that i didn't even think i would enjoy i'm enjoying like i didn't even think about like okay dressing my baby is so much fun.

1:35:42And then like watching my baby's development is so much fun. And then like teaching my baby and like reading to my baby and singing to my baby and like all these things. It's like, wow, you didn't even think about it. You know, like I, at least I didn't, you know? Right. But I'm just, I'm really enjoying this. I hope, you know, we're blessed with, you know, being able to do this again. And I think it's just a good antidote, you know, for me personally, with everything that's happening in the world and all the uncertainty, my little nuclear bubble yeah you know is is is a huge source of of uh of gratification and love and you know clarity and all the things and it just you know it just puts a lot into perspective well said yeah well said let's end on that yeah love catching up with you we'll have to do it again sometime and uh once this once a story gets that website out we're gonna check it out Yeah, we have a website that's just not great.

1:36:39No, anyway, the new one. Yeah, yeah. The better one. The better one. So congrats on everything. Thank you. We'll talk soon. All right, cheers. Bye. Bye. All right, that's the changelog for this week. Thanks for frenzing with us. Do you share all the feelings Amel shared on the show? Let us know in Zulip. We would love to hear from you. So sign up, why don't you? If you haven't already, at changelog.com slash community. It's totally free and it's totally awesome, in my opinion. Thanks again to our awesome sponsors, Fly.io, Heroku.com, Depot.dev, and Retool.com. Please support them. They support us and they have awesome offerings.

1:37:25And thank you to our B-Freakin' residents. Breakmaster Cylinder keeps us topped up with fresh beats and we love that. Hopefully you do too. Have a great weekend. Share the changelog with your friends if you dig it. And let's talk again real soon.