Other people's robots (Friends)

30:54You know, you've got these selections. That's what's cool about the PC building world, in my opinion. Yeah, for sure. What's up, friends? I'm here with Kurt Mackey, co-founder and CEO of Fly. As you know, we love Fly. That is the home of changelog.com. But Kurt, I want to know how you explain Fly to developers. Do you tell them a story first? How do you do it? I kind of change how I explain it based on almost like the generation of developer I'm talking to. So like for me, I built and shipped apps on Heroku, which if you've never used Heroku is roughly like building and shipping an app on Vercel today.

31:28It's just it's 2024 instead of 2008 or whatever. And what frustrated me about doing that was I didn't, I got stuck. You can build and ship a Rails app with a Postgres on Heroku, the same way you can build and ship a Next.js app on Vercel. But as soon as you want to do something interesting, like as soon as you want to, at the time, I think one of the things I ran into is like, I wanted to add what used to be like kind of the basis for Elasticsearch. I want to do full text search in my applications. You kind of hit this wall with something like Heroku where you can't really do that. I think lately we've seen it with people wanting to add LLM's kind of inference stuff to their applications.

32:02On Vercell or Heroku or Cloudflare or whoever these days, they've started releasing abstractions that sort of let you do this. But I can't just run the model I'd run locally on these black box platforms that are very specialized. For the people my age, it's always like, oh, Heroku was great, but I outgrew it. And one of the things that I felt like I should be able to do when I was using Heroku was run my app close to people in Tokyo for users that were in Tokyo. and that was never possible. For modern generation devs, it's a lot more Vercel based. It's a lot like Vercel is great right up until you hit one of their hard line boundaries and then you're kind of stuck.

32:36There's the other one. We've had someone within the company. I can't remember the name of this game, but the tagline was like five minutes to start forever to master. It's sort of how we're pitching Fly. It's like you can get an app going in five minutes, but there's so much depth to the platform that you're never going to run out of things you can do with it. So unlike AWS or Heroku or Vercel, which are all great platforms, the cool thing we love here at ChangeLog most about Fly is that no matter what we want to do on the platform, we have primitives, we have abilities, and we as developers can charge our own mission on Fly.

33:11It is a no limits platform built for developers, and we think you should try it out. Go to fly.io to learn more. Launch your app in five minutes. Too easy. Once again, fly.io.

33:29This digit, though. So if you were to purchase it, what would make me think it's valuable is if this thing can be on my network and give me local LLM to my LAN, maybe I can assign a global domain name to it and actually access it from external. I can tap into it from the API. Maybe I can attach a client to it that fetches via the API, and it's all local to me. I don't have to do what you said before, which is other people's robots, OPR. I'd like to own my own robot and if Digit is the way to go then it's three grand to do that maybe the Gen 2 you know always buy the Gen 2 right well this one doesn't come out until May so there'll still be time will tell and I'm sure the Jeff Geerlings of the world and the Techno Tims yeah exactly will all have reviews and breakdowns.

34:37And we'll see if it's any good. Right now it's just interesting. But have you tried Ollama yet? This was how I have been running Ollama locally. And I'm all but sure you can set it up to run over a network and have a beefy computer that's... Actually, I know. I think last time you and I were on a Friends by ourselves, we looked at, maybe there's two of them back, we looked at Ollama's settings and we saw that you could set up a network URL to run against. I haven't done it, though. I would buy an inexpensive Mac Mini with as much peripherals as necessary, no storage really necessary. Maybe there's some storage necessary.

35:23I don't know. I would configure a Mac Mini, put it on my network, and I don't know if a 10-gig connection to it is necessary either. it's just probably not but why not data you know a one good connection is probably just plenty so you can go with potentially the base model mac mini and get maybe a majority of or a lot of what you can get from this nvidia digit now i think the numbers there's thing in his position that somebody who's gone beyond the land like i'm looking for you know how can i integrate suggestions gosh I'm I don't know do you have Alexa in your house a who now a who Alexa oh yes do you like Alexa what's your what's your relationship with Alexa positive or negative it's similar to Siri I guess my my stance is similar to Siri which is like slightly annoyed but still useful at times my kids love it they ask all kinds of questions yeah kids love that stuff yeah they have patience we don't have you know well for a lot of them my kids it's the only thing they have in terms of like you know we don't give a lot of them smartphones or anything until they're in their teens and so like they have ipad but that's like family shared use and you're only but like just to ask a question like if you want to know what 14 times 14 is and you haven't memorized your times tables yet they'll just ask it right they'll ask how to spell things like it's kind of a crutch it's kind of a crutch yeah but that being said they get a lot of value out of it i don't get very much but it's mostly just playing music for us what's your you asked me so that i would ask you back here you go what's your stance it's new so my personal usage has always been frustrated at friends houses they've got it to do lights and stuff like that and i'm like okay so in that example which I haven't gotten there yet I think that's cool this goes back to the self-hosting I would totally set up home assistant configure Alexa to do these things I think that's cool that's a that's a great usage of voice it's simple that's a simple interface to do things in your household I was like home kit and so in my house at least we have some automated blinds or some some and they're on the network it has a hub how do i describe this they're blinds that are electronic they have a battery in them so you can like recharge them once per year kind of thing and it has a remote and you can use the remote obviously but you can also just tell home kit open all blinds or close living room blinds or open living room blinds to 80 like it'll take even that kind of percentage number and so home kit does a lot of that for me so i haven't really lean too far into home assistant that being said i'm not a super insane self-hosting home automation person i'm just a dip my toe in person because i haven't i don't have enough time to go as deep as i want to i really should carve out more time but my issue with alexa is that it's mostly frustrating and the reason why i'm getting to this alexa conversation is that how would i want to leverage an LLM that I would host myself like Olam or whatever I would love to have some voice version of it so I'm speaking to it versus just having to type everything to it you know like can I take this LLM and expand its usage Alexa and Siri are the two good options for you know voice OS and so I'm not sure that Siri is there yet I wonder if Apple's Apple intelligence will prohibit Siri from being more useful in those regards.

39:05Don't talk to me, Siri. Gosh, Siri's listening on my phone right in front of me. Go away, Siri. So I think I would love it if someone would just corner the market on a really awesome voice OS that is agnostic so that as NVIDIA predicts this AI going mainstream with NVIDIA Digit, I think this is true. people are going to start putting lms in their homes more frequently you know because of olama because of the self-hosting option the next thing you're going to want to do though is interface it via voice so how do you do that that's why i asked you about alexa well i do think that we're very much in the early days where the pioneers are pioneering and that's why so much excitement in our particular industry was like oh a new gold rush and as tech enthusiasts and people you know in the software world of course we've been interested and toying with it and trying it but it certainly hasn't arrived yet in any packaged way where it's mainstream i mean apple intelligence is probably the closest thing and it just kind of sucks at this point i mean are you using any of your is it out officially oh yeah no i don't have apple intelligence i mean it's beta but it's on ios 18.2 i think it's on i've resisted out that that uh upgrade because of what they've done to the photos app so i'm still stuck in the past because i'm like are you're in the past well i'm just scared i'm i'm so afraid i'm shaking in my boots with this whole this is the walled garden you just when apple says upgrade you have to upgrade i know and i'm resisting jared so hardcore okay and the reason why is the photos app i use the new photos app all the time it's not very good but what am i gonna do i don't have any alternatives i know i was hoping that they would reverse the the train and do something different well there's always ios 19 they'll they'll dial it back did you see the meme i want to see if we can put this in the show notes or i don't even know where to reference it i have to pull it up on the screen there was a meme of uh like you would see on tiktok where you have one person going back and forth and they're both characters if you want to try and pull it up you can but it's essentially saying it's friday let's just we have to ship this i'm paraphrasing this uh hysterical uh meme of making fun of how apple released this photos app and it was like oh it's good enough or i've got to leave and it's got to go and something where it was just like basically rushed and they're like it looks good it looks good to me kind of thing i'm doing a terrible job describing it but it's it is amazing it was funny uh that being said my wife is upgraded i can find it based on that description yeah i'm sorry it's friday we gotta ship apple photos meme yeah i mean something like that we're gonna end up with rebecca black hey here's 102 happy friday memes to kickstart your weekend oh gosh did you perplexity that or did you just google that no i'm just googling at this point oh my gosh go to perplexity see what they've got okay let's try it live brand a new search what do you think would would bear fruit oh no put on the screen find the apple photos meme for the recent update is is it literally about friday should i put friday in there i'm pretty sure it's friday but uh you can throw some keywords in there friday recent updates Friday, TikTok, funny.

42:32Now I'm doing it like it's a search bar. It's like, I'm sorry, but... Oh, gosh, I cannot find anything. Specific Apple Photos memes cannot be provided. Blah, blah, blah, blah. All right, so you actually suck perplexity. I'm no longer bullish. Maybe. But, yeah. I guess to its credit. It was a miss. DuckDuckGo couldn't find it either. I've resisted this latest update for the reasons of the photos and I love the photos app so I Dad's out there listen up. Okay Quick class I've got a five-year-old and rather than doing like look up sometimes we'll do stories. Obviously we still do stories But one thing I've learned about young children Is the the reason why they love photos is they love to know where they came from.

43:21They love to re live recent memories and it's a it's a part of bonding it's obviously part of a dad bonding thing but it's also like uh this thankfulness and appreciation for the life they have and the blessings they have in their life and so we go back as part of a nighttime routine we'll look through recent photos recent events especially if we just did something really cool and really fun like that day kind of thing we'll go back through and look through the adventure we had that weekend into that day and so i'm i'm near and dear to the way photos app delivers these memories to me and so i'm resistant to this change i have not that being said now i have not even looked at any recent update for it i just know it's just generally bad say the new apple photo still does all that stuff i mean i know it's not like it's not going to show you some sort of infinite scroll it's it's like change the ui so i just ui that's changed yeah it's probably me jared it's me problem okay it's probably a me problem have you tried are you on sequoia let's see 15.2 because there's apple intelligence in the new mac os and it's it's silliness it doesn't do anything good i am on sonoma 14.1 sorry 14.6.1 okay so you are a luddite i'm resistant to change okay very i mean you should know this about me i'm resistant to change I pause, I think, I calculate I hem, I haul, I delay I reconsider, I hem, I haul, I delay Then I'm like, okay, let's do it That's my way It's just what I'm comfortable with Well, my point is that Both of these new operating systems Which you haven't even tried Have Apple Intelligence in them And it's a nothing burger There's no there there It doesn't do anything it's like do you want me to auto uh there's like better autocomplete suggestions on your messages app but it's like i would never say any of those three things i don't talk like that so no i'm not going to click on it here's what i would want okay tell me this is what it does or what you think it will do okay i use apple maps when i drive i will often need to recalibrate my direction all the time i do not want to pick up my phone and do it by hand because why it's dangerous you're driving man i'm driving yes i would love an apple intelligence or any intelligence to let me remap my directions or hey i'm going here what restaurants are nearby there no even better is like we want to stop at the next chipotle between us and where we're going preach for me it's bucky's just throw it on the map for me i was on a trip recently for this Men's weekend I was like I'm in like Nowhere land in Texas which Texas is big And sometimes you get out there and you're like Where is the nearest gas station I didn't plan well enough I'm gonna run out of gas Situation in Texas That is the truth between Houston and Amarillo You can run out of gas if you don't plan properly Um where's the next Buc-ee's I'm heading this direction Just ease my anxiety there's a Buc-ee's in 20 miles Okay great I feel better You know like whatever it is That's good intelligence so the current this exact this chipotle example your your case is bucky's was exactly happened to us on the way home from florida and we have carplay in our car and so i have the maps through my phone apple maps showing us how to get home and there's the ui where you can say add stop and then you can pick from a list of pre-configured categories you want to stop at gas stations restaurants breakfast parks whatever or ask siri and so i'll say okay ask siri where would you like to go and i said chipotle and she said there are nine chipotles on your route the first one is 17 minutes away you want me to add it and you know which direction the 17 minutes were straight backwards straight behind us and i would say no and she'd say the second one is here do you want and then you have to step you know one by one through this list of results in order to get to one that you actually want to go i mean it's just a complete mess and it's so close to being an amazing feature if it just had a little bit of intelligence you know not much so ai is mainstream but it has some warts here's the sad part is I think as I don't know if it's mainstream yet but as it goes more and more mainstream I don't actually think the warts are going to go away I think we're just going to live with these things I mean think how bad Siri has been for so long as it is we just lived with it you can only put so much lipstick on a pig it's still a pig and there's value there but there's a lot of warts man yeah my usage of Siri is very cursory.

48:18I do math with it. I set timers. I cancel alarms. I close blinds. I open blinds. Yeah. I'm getting a front door lock from, I believe, Yale. Yale University? Yale, the door lock company. Okay. So that's a different thing. And it can connect to your network. And so I think I can say lock front door, unlock front door. I can open my garages. Both I have a carriage garage and a main garage and i can say open main garage open carriage and i can actually say i could make it say open carriage garage it's just long and i haven't i've been too lazy to go back and say open main but i mean i think open main garage is actually pretty good i should actually get mine wired up to my garage door openers because they're smart enough yeah however i i just like buttons as we've invited rachel plodding on and talk buttons i confess like i just like to hit the button however at this point one of my garage door openers like the button is not always working it's finicky so i have to launch the app sometimes to open it and i'm like i should get that wired up so i can just say open south garage haven't done it so we have apple uh carplay in our car as well and so i'll push the talk button because that's how you talk to siri right and uh what i will say is we're driving into the driveway open main garage and so as i'm driving into the driveway rather than push the button or find where the thing is at we actually keep it hidden because we don't want anybody to come and steal our stuff and like come into our house through our garage opener and they've got access and so it it like i'd say 98 of the time it works just fine every once in a while series like what'd you say especially when you have a kid talking while you're talking or something that's usually what happens yeah and what i've found though too to go one second deeper on this is that i didn't think that my inexpensive came with my home garage door openers were connected my neighbor who has the same ones like hey adam did you know that these things are already wi-fi enabled and they already like connect i'm like no i had no idea he's like this is how you do it this is like last literally last year at the same time and sure enough they're connected they're genie models like they're not they just came with the home like nothing special not big you know there's nothing special about them sure but they connect to the network they're really easy to use and the ios app that you install on the phone allows you to configure you know siri and home kit and shortcuts to interface with it so i think garage doors are a great place blinds if you have them uh we use apple tvs a lot in our home so i can say you know turn off uh family room tv it turns it off it can turn it on all of our tvs have Apple TVs there so I can speak to each room essentially.

51:07Turn off living room TV. Turn off master bedroom TV, etc. So those are the things I like. And that's nothing special. That's not HomeKit. Or that's just all HomeKit. It's not even AI. It's just like, well, I mean, there's some voice to text going on back there. But that's longstanding technology. One last point on this and then we should move on. You gave some dad advice earlier. Here's some kid advice on the topic of talking to Siri in the car. So if you're riding in the back of your car and there's a car play enabled or your parents just happen to be talking to their phone maybe directly and they are texting their significant other via voice.

51:46A good kid move, if you want to have a little bit of fun with your parents, is right when your mom or dad stops their message, just throw some non sequiturs in. You know, just like add a random word, something that won't make any sense. And that sucker will send off right alongside the rest of it. That's right. and you get a good laugh going. And if your parents aren't too angry with you, they won't mind. I will concur with that. My kids do that to me. They know that trick. They play it frequently. You've got to think of a random word to throw in there at the end. Yeah, it is good stuff. Okay, friends, have you ever been doxxed on the internet?

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54:14all right well we're talking warts i thought this was a fun story as i like to pick on oh yes autonomous vehicles i'm actually i'm pretty intrigued and impressed by what waymo has been able to do however warts and all man warts and all so this is a story from tech crunch We talked to the guy who was stuck in a Waymo robotaxi on a dizzying loop. Now, I may have mentioned this to you offhand as we were talking at some point. Of course, I told you the story about them honking at each other in the parking lot all night long. This is a new one. A month ago, this story comes from January 8th of 25, a month ago, a video circulated around social media of a Waymo robotaxi stuck in a roundabout loop.

55:07an isolated incident with no passengers in the vehicle according to waymo apparently it wasn't a one-time thing around the same time in another waymo robotaxi headed for the phoenix airport mike johns founder and ceo of ai consultancy digital mind state also found himself circling a parking lot unable to stop the car or get out the videos were posted within a couple of days of each other waymo has not confirmed whether the incidents happened at the same time or if there were other similar loopy incidents but says it issued software updates to fix the issue blah blah blah johns was stuck in the waymo going through a loop for under seven minutes but he says it felt like forever which we all know that feeling of elongation when something's going wrong and you just feel like it's never going to end it ends up being seven minutes particularly as he feared he would miss his flight and questioned whether the car had been hacked it was his second time in Waymo how did he get out well a Waymo customer support specialist called into the car with Johns's prompting the agent said she had received a notification that his car might be experiencing some routing issue and she asked Johns to open his Waymo app and tap my trip in the lower left corner of the app and to which john's responded can't you just do it you should be able to handle it take over the car you don't need my phone and then she confessed she didn't have an option to control the car anyways he had to do it and she walked in through it and got it unstuck there's many more details which we won't read my gosh man wow so warts and all man i mean scary i mean life could have been lost for sure right i mean you could have puked your guts out in this situation it depends on how tight that loop is you know yeah i mean eventually you're gonna get maybe one and a half g two g's i mean at some point you get over that and the you know going in the centrifugal force right so here's a pro tip for waymo riders which i just learned from TechCrunch.

57:16All Waymo vehicles have a pullover button available to riders at all times. It's located in the app and on the passenger screen. So if you're stuck or scared or something, there is a chicken exit. Apparently this fella didn't know about it. I didn't know about it. I've never ridden a Waymo. So I have a better excuse than he has, but maybe it's not obvious where that button is. They probably don't want you pushing it accidentally or even very often. as it defeats the purpose. But there it is. There is a Waymo chicken exit if you need it. Yeah, I think the ending there was kind of cool. And he's like, look, pull up the left corner of that map on the floor and you'll see a red button.

57:57Hit that button. Reminds me of the recent button conversation we obviously had with Rachel Plotnik and the importance of literal buttons that can be pressed. And it was red. You got to have a red button somewhere. Something is going to happen with that. Yeah, we need escape hatches, that's for sure. I had no idea there was this button or the app button to pull over. I have not been in a Waymo, so I think that's just fine, not having that knowledge just yet. But now that I do, I will be more confident going into a Waymo because I know how to get out should I get stuck in a perpetual loop. Has Waymo come to Austin yet?

58:36You know what? I'm not in downtown Austin enough to know. Maybe. I would say maybe. I think, I kind of imagine it might be the birthplace of whatever Elon Musk might launch, because the headquarters is here now. It's in a city called Bastrop. B-A-S-T-R-O-P. Bastrop. We call it Bastrop. Like the word drop, though. So that's an eastern suburb of Austin, literally east of Austin. Considered Austin, technically. but it is the city of Bastrop just so you know that's not confusing enough for you no that is where his uh like the test there's like a Tesla headquarters in North Austin uh there's a Tesla something or other about 20 minutes from me here that's like just massive and then in Bastrop they have their um what is it called it's like a city like a little mini city he's building it's crazy uh what he's doing here i imagine that whatever he may launch will probably launch here first because so many folks are migrating to texas so i found waymo's official list of cities they are in metro phoenix okay san francisco bay area and los angeles the metro phoenix territory includes downtown scottsdale tempe so it's not merely phoenix proper and they said that they're ramping up in Austin and Atlanta in partnership with Uber, which I didn't know.

1:00:10Miami, we're headed your way next on the Waymo One app. Sign up so we can reach out. So looking like not yet, but eventually. I was in Phoenix. That's the closest I got to riding a Waymo. But I didn't really care to have the experience enough, and it cost more than the Uber did. And so I'm just like same place. Let a human make some money. Less money for me. Like, less cost for me. Let's just skip it. I want to mention this show, like this being trapped thing. If anybody is a fan of 80s British television, then I want to mention a show that I like a lot. I haven't watched all the episodes. It's called Connections.

1:00:58Episode one is called The Trigger Effect. And we're going to link to it in the show notes. Jared has it pulled up right now. for you to check this out it's on the internet archive to to watch which is super cool yeah very cool and so what's cool about this is this was like this is an 80s tv show and james burke the the fellow that i believe is hosting this is talking you through the way that technology traps us and this is in the 80s his example was new york city manhattan island basically is a big trap, a big technology trap. You've got elevators, you've got taxis, you've got subways. At that subway stops, you're stuck in this tunnel kind of thing.

1:01:39This is not a new invention of being trapped by technology. And I think as we have AI and Waymos and stuff like that, it only is going to make it even more of a possibility to have this trigger effect, as he calls it, which is this technology failing and then everybody being stuck in some way, shape, or form. a waymo is the most modern example potentially uh back in the day it was an elevator and i think everybody's if you ask people what their one of their biggest fears is someone in a group of 10 is going to say stuck in an elevator for sure is that one of your biggest fears no yeah i don't really have that one either i'll admit right now what my biggest fear is one of my biggest fears is okay let's hear it being stuck in a cave okay let me just tell you i do not spelunk okay i do not spelunk i do not uh really so is that a claustrophobia thing or it's specific to caves oh it's just like i would just never want to do it you know i've seen enough movies for whatever reason youtube has got me trapped in this algorithm of just sharing you know terrible stories of cave divers dying and oh my god and and and and i'd never want to be in that position i would never want to be could you imagine picture this in your brain okay i'm I'm going to close my eyes.

1:02:55You are on your belly. Okay. And directly above you is rock for as far as you can think of. Right. Below you is rock for as far as you can think of. To the right and left of you is rock as far as you can think of. And you have a helmet on with a light that may have a battery that dies eventually. You've got limited supplies, and you're crawling for fun through this tunnel that other people may have died in. Yeah. And you may discover a body 20 yards up or whatever. And you're not even sure if at some point you have it open enough to turn back around. Right. You have to point a no return. Emphatically, no.

1:03:30For me, it's a hard no. So my fear is not even plausible because I would never do that. But if someone held me at gunpoint and was like, Adam, you've got to go through this cave to live, I would say shoot me now, okay? Because I'm not going to do it. Shoot me now. Shoot me now. Well, nobody wants to end up like Chester Copperpot. That's right. There's a Goonies deep cut. All right. Oh, I liked it. let's cut that into the video man let's get a little clip in there will we get uh demonetized for that we're not even trying to monetize no man we're not making any money okay let's get back to tech and out of that cave that you put us in last story of the show is julia evans our friend julia evans popular nerdy blogger writes what's involved in getting a modern quotes around the modern terminal setup julia writes hello recently i ran a terminal survey and i asked people what frustrated them one person commented there are so many pieces to having a modern terminal experience i wish it all came out of the box and so julia thought it's not so hard to have a modern terminal experience and then she thought a little harder and realized there's a lot to it it's a lot hard it's pretty hard and she goes through list of things that make for a modern experience and then how she achieves that modern experience i thought i was living the modern terminal life with terminal.app and then mitchell hashimoto came in and was like you got 256 colors man and i was like no i didn't even know yes like for people who are colorblind they don't know they're colorblind until somebody else can see more colors than them and be like that's not brown dude that's blue you're like what oh yes so i no longer have that problem i have fully converted to ghosty but that's not all the things she lists here there's more than she mentioned ghosty that she mentioned ghosty very briefly towards the end right here oh is she using ghosty uh it was in her list yeah i saw at the end she put uh Kitty, Alacrity, Wes Turner, Ghosty I saw that, I didn't get to the end of the post because we started recording so maybe she confesses Ghosty at the end I don't think so Truth be told, this is on our reading list, not our read list so it's to be read Oh, for you?

1:05:51It's on my to read list, yeah, it's not my have read list Oh, okay, so you wanted to read it together Yeah, I wanted to mention it I think in light of Ghosty, I think in light of I'm still a warp for life kind of person I think until Well, that's the thing is I think Warp does provide a lot of this stuff, right? Yeah, I think so too. Specifically, she mentioned key bindings. I know that was one of your issues with Ghosty. Yeah. Was that she wants specific things to work and you have specific keyboard shortcuts that you use Mac OS style. Similar to my desire with men to have Mac OS supported keyboard bindings.

1:06:26And you asked Mitchell about Ghosty with regards to that. And his answer was like, unfortunately, it's way more complicated than you'd think it'd be because of the way inputs work between terminals and shells. And what's so funny, though, is that kudos to warp. It is so smooth and so fast. And so the way Mitchell described it in that podcast, which we'll link up in the show notes and probably throw a YouTube link in there or whatever, if that's a possibility, is that he was talking about the. if I understood it correctly he was saying that it was fraught with possible error. Unpredictable I think is the word he used.

1:07:05Right. Well, Warp has got it locked in because there's never a time I want to do anything it's as if the prompt is like a text editor. What I mean by that is like if you're in Sublime or in VS Code or if you're in any modern text editor, you can just dump around with the arrow key and alt and command and shift and stuff and do things like that's how it works it's very much like you're in a prose editor and i love that i think that they nailed that well and no matter where you're at too as long as you got a space in there you can do a tab and it will try and complete something in that directory you're in like a readme or you know toml file or whatever it might be to like sort of link to it i think you know warp has done really really a great job and so until until and if, I suppose, if Ghosty solves that problem or desires to solve that problem, I'm a warp for life kind of guy.

1:08:00So here's Julia's list of things that are, she considers required to be modern. And you can tell me if warp has all these or not, if you care or not. The first one is multi-line support for copy and paste. I think this is similar to what you're talking about now, with it being a lot like a text editor. Yeah. She says if you paste three commands in your shell, it should not immediately run them all. That's scary. I kind of disagree with that. I have no problem like pasting three commands and they all three execute one after the other. That's just how I would think about it. But I could see where maybe you want to just have them have a look first.

1:08:38Hmm. So I don't really I might end up just being too old where it's like I've been using an old an old terminal for 20 years and I don't care because I have used it in the old configuration for so long. but that's not necessarily something i i do want multi-line support for copy more than paste i would say you want to easily be able to copy and paste in and out okay check you can do multi-paste commands what happens when you do a multi-paste command nothing it waits for you to do more things it waits for you to push return okay so just look you just look at it and then you can hit enter to run all three of them then well as an example to test i just did brew list and brew update because i'm like that's that's those are safe commands i can run without any concerns right i paste those into the prompt and nothing happened it's blinking cursor waiting for me to say go let me try it here all right so i put rule list and rule update on separate lines and i'm going to copy paste them in to ghosty and it doesn't execute it just paste them in one here and then one there and then i can hit enter to go i don't understand why this is a modern feature she desires but what happened though when i did push return was it brew listed and then a brew updated yeah it doesn't both yeah but it doesn't do it automatically on paste i think that is a modern feature because i want to i think that's smart because you want to you may have fat fingered the the copy and you paste a missing copy but you didn't get the whole thing maybe you missing fingered the copy okay missing fingers yeah those are those happen you know you got a character that didn't come with you and it's like well this is a malformed command right but wouldn't that just error i mean i guess it probably would but you know all right let's move on this one we're split on this one it works in ghosty the same way it works in work okay infinite shell history yes please if i run a command in my shell it should be saved forever not deleted after 500 histories or whatever um so i agree with that one there's no reason in modern times to delete my shell history ever unless i want to let's see i don't know if this is a warp feature it's a shell thing it's a shell yeah it's like a configuration thing but she's talking about overall experience i understand why she lists it one more shout out to a2in if you want synchronized and awesome shell history stuff okay a2in.sh a-t-u-i-n.sh yes to be clear a useful prompt i can't live without having my current directory and current git branch in my prompt shell oh she puts sorry i said prompt shell uh she puts shell in parentheses because she realizes this is a shell concern gotcha and so yes so like your terminal is not going to support that your shell would i think we can all agree that that's useful i mean praise robbie for oh my zsh because i mean that makes it easy if you're using zsh but i think later on she talks about using fish so i'm not sure if she is well she uses fish or zsh with oh my zsh so she's either doing one or the other i don't know why you do both but different strokes for different folks how about 24-bit color this is the one i didn't realize i knew and i wonder if there's a way to put terminal.app into 24-bit mode because i remember doing something out of 256 and maybe i've done that but anyways it should be like that by default and that's why mitchell doesn't like terminal that app this is of course your terminal emulator that does this and i think that pretty much all of them nowadays gonna give you that well thankfully a google search landed me on terminal features on the warp documentation and i will tell you they have a an entire grid of features that are in modern quotes modern uh terminals warp is in the list obviously because it's their documentation Terminal.app is in there.

1:12:30iTerm, Aliqurity, and WesTerm is in there. So Ghosty has not made the list yet. So for 24-bit true color, it's a yes for warp. It is a no for Terminal.app. It is a yes for iTerm. It is a yes for Aliqurity. I can't say that. Alacrity. Alacrity. Thank you. Alacrity. Alacrity. WesTerm is a yes as well. So the one that's missing is Terminal.app. So if you're using Terminal.app, Jared, then, you know. Which I'm not. I haven't used it for a long time. Not anymore, but you were recently. I haven't even used it this year at all. His criticism was on point, though. Okay, there you go. That's a good thing to say.

1:13:0313, 14 days into the year. Good job. I haven't used that all year. Clipboard integration, she lists. Sure. Of course, you want to have that. I don't know. How does that work? Clipboard integration. I feel like that's copy-paste, right? I don't know. She says, between Vim and my OS, so that when I copy in Firefox, I can just P in Vim. Oh, yeah. So that's more of a text editor thing. That's a Vim thing. and I don't know if the terminal can help you with that or not, but I'm going to go ahead and... Conflating the modern terminal with the modern terminal experience, I believe. So she's describing the experience she wants.

1:13:36Yeah, she's conflated them all together. Shells, editors, and terminal emulators into one thing. Sorry for the criticism, but that's what she's describing. And I'm cool with that. She does specify each one for each bullet point. It's just messing up our comparisons here. It sure is. Having colors in LS, again, that's a shell config thing. A terminal theme that she likes. So that's obviously going to be a feature of your terminal emulator. Dracula Pro. They're all thermo. They're all themable, aren't they? They are all themable. Automatic terminal fixing. If a program prints out some weird escape codes that mess up my terminal, I want that to automatically get reset, not get reset, but get reset, so that my terminal doesn't get messed up.

1:14:17Cool. That's a feature of your shell, not your terminal. key bindings that's the one that we talked about already and then being able to use the scroll wheel in programs who uses a scroll wheel honestly well this is of course just julia's list this is not a comprehensive list and she's completely free to have her own opinions on the matter she uses the fish shell mostly unconfigured as well as uh any terminal emulator with 24 bit color support she's used gnome iterm not picky and then neo vim plus the base 16 framework for theming nice which i hadn't heard of yeah this is new base 16 not a theme but a framework for building tomorrow styled themes using a base of 16 colors this thing's been around for jeez, 15, 13 years.

1:15:14So, cool. Learned something new there. That sounds cool. And that's that. Well, I would say that Warp checks most of those boxes because they're not all terminal-specific things and it can do all those things without any regard. So, boom. Yeah, and so does Ghosty. So we're modern, baby. Warp for the win. Ghosty for the win.

1:15:44all right easy now that we both won unlike our game of two truths and a lie that i clearly won somebody said that uh what was the chatter in zulip i didn't get to read it and it was over my weekend so i was like just checking it did you see that mention no of uh let me go back to it real quick and see if i can get to it oh man what is it while we wait if you are not in our zulip let's fix that bug it's totally free go to changelog.com slash community you can actually view the Zulip without even creating an account click the button there that says view our Zulip and you can see some of the conversations going on was this in the episode 75 with Matt Reier so one thing we have to do and to be clear if you're listening this to this in audio we have transitioned and in the process of transitioning to be video first and that means full length episodes chaptered the full kit and the caboodle that's right in youtube and so what i'm noticing we're missing on our uh episode page jared is a link or some sort of awareness of youtube so we're iterating you know obviously we haven't gotten there yet so i think the comment may have been on YouTube on this episode.

1:17:02And I think it was somebody commenting about how many points you may have gotten, or I'm misremembering, one of the two. I thought this was a conversation about our potentially unbelieved F word, which I did not go listen back to. I'm sure we didn't have an unbelieved F word in there. Did we, Adam? I don't think so. Somebody confirmed that it was just a sound. Oh, yeah, I just stumbled a word. I was going to say figure out, There was a D word that got bleeped, thankfully. Disc. Yes, a big D word that got bleeped.

1:17:38Yes, a big D word. It was. That was a slip of the tongue if I've ever had one. So maybe I'm missing this. I thought somebody said something about how many points you had gotten, and I guess I'm wrong because I can't find it. So I dreamt it. I think I dreamt this about you losing officially, but I guess you didn't lose officially. Okay, well, I can see where maybe in your dreams I would lose. Somebody did concur. Skalk Neathling on YouTube in comments. Yep. People believe that he, Mandela, passed away in jail during the 1980s. That's right. See, that's a big deal there. That's a big deal. Anyways, we are on YouTube.

1:18:15Full-length episodes, chaptered and all. We are in your podcast app. If you're listening to us, in your podcast app. Just stay right where you are. It's nice and cozy. We're not going to change. Yeah, it's cozy. Nothing changes. You can hang here if you want to. but if you want to see us i would say maybe a slightly more high fidelity especially as we're talking through things and stuff like that we're gonna have the screen up in the video right on youtube so when you're if you if you get to a point in the show and you're like man i really wish i could see that well you can just remember the time mark and roughly around the same time frame on youtube you will find the same section that you're listening to because they're not the exact same timeline so the youtube version and the audio version may be of different lengths they may Maybe you have different spots, so your mileage may vary.

1:18:57That being said, you can have higher fidelity, slightly more context if you desire it via full-length video podcasts on YouTube. Boom, Shaka. That's coming to you. I do have a bonus, Jerry. Can we do a bonus for our plus plus folks? Can we end the show and then do one bonus? Are you cool with that? I absolutely am cool with a bonus. I think before we tail out, let's tease a few of our upcoming interviews. We have some interviews booked. that we'd like to let people know about because we have some really cool stuff coming down in the pipeline. So you probably already heard our conversation with Alicia White from Embedded FM.

1:19:35That's in your feed if you haven't heard it yet. But definitely check that one out. It was a good one. Next week we have Ash from Benthos. Benthos was acquired by Red Panda, and we've been working with Ash. We've had Ash on GoTime before. Really cool guy. coming on the show to talk about that set the sale of this open source project and all that jazz the week following it's glauber i'm not sure if you say his name globber or glauber we will learn that from terso globber is it globber i believe so i've talked to him once of course terso has a really cool new open source project called limbo limbo is a complete rewrite of sqlite in rust they're working on that and i'm excited to learn all about it i'm really i'm really excited about that one that's it for now i thought i had one more uh in the can but uh there we go so stay tuned for bentos data streaming open source acquisitioning as well as going deep on limbo the new rewrite of sqlite in rust coming to a changelog near you okay should we say goodbye friends and then we can bonus it up.

1:20:52Bye friends. Bye friends.

1:21:00All right. That is your change log for this week. Thanks for hanging with us. What do you think about Nvidia's project digits, Waymo's infinite loops and or modern terminal setups? Let us know in Zulip. Yes, the change log community hangs in Zulip now. and it's cool. You should join if you haven't yet. Like I said on the show, go to changelog.com slash community. It's totally free. There's fun convos. There's like-minded, friendly people. Why not, right? Let's do one more thank you to our partners at Fly.io and to our sponsors of this episode. Augment code and delete me. Please check out what they're up to and support them.

1:21:42They support us. And thanks, of course, to our beat freaking residents, Breakmaster Cylinder, who is hard at work cranking on some new tracks for our next full-length album. Stay tuned for that. Next week on the Change Log, news on Monday, Ashley Jeffs, who takes us on his open-source ride that ended with Ben Thos selling to Red Panda last year. That's on Wednesday. And Chris Brando plus Matthew Sanabria, co-hosts of the Go Time spinoff, Fall Through, on Friday. Have a great weekend. Share Change Log with your friends who might dig it and let's talk again real soon

1:22:40changelog plus plus it's better sonos ceo patrick spence steps down after disastrous app launch. I can concur. They have basically ruined Sonos. Oh no. Yeah. I mean like it's not, the app used to be so easy to use or at least easy-ish. It wasn't the best. It could use some improvements and the improvements they made were not improvements. They were detriments.