Retreat to attack (Friends)

31:09And then I just happened to escape and I don't need it. And it doesn't actually make my life enough better to be worth all of the baggage, but the phone itself is way more useful than the watches. And so that one I've, I'm much more connected to and addicted to, but I have been leaving it on the charger. You know, that's my, that's my recent move. I call it a return to analog which is like let's just focus on the analog let's get away from the digital when we're away from the digital let's actually get away from the digital and leave the phone on the charger and um this elongates this conversation a bit like this is resurgence for a lot of folks to be against the the norms like drinking has been a norm for a lot of folks there's a lot of people like i'm i'm now sober i haven't drank all year i quit drinking in january january 1 i quit drinking haven't had a drink since and so i'm free of alcohol in my life i never plan to go back and i've never felt better my whole entire life and i've got so many friends that are either sober curious or going there and it's become a trend for young folks younger folks who are just like basically anti anything that is not health conscious yeah it's like my routine is to get up at 5 45 every day journal for 30 minutes work out for an hour and a half and then go slay work and then spend time with friends.

32:33Like that's the dream of a lot of young folks these days. And that was not the case for me when I was, it was like, you better get your butt out there and work. Okay. You better find your career and make some money. You better build a family and have, you know, those things. But a lot of things are like this return to analog, this return to soberness, this return to just putting pure things into your body and less toxins, less poisons that really shape a lot of Americans' lives. Yeah. Yeah. I saw a trend recently amongst teens where they will sit for 15 minutes or whatever the time period is, and they'll set their phone up and they'll start recording, which is to keep themselves to task basically, because they're going to publish it.

33:20So there's still like a digital component to this, and I'm sure it's a trend. And so they want to get all the kudos from their friends and stuff by putting it up on the internet. But they just sit there. So they put their phone. It's almost, it's not meditation, but it's just like, I'm not going to listen to music. I'm not going to have my phone. I'm not going to do anything. I'm just going to sit here for 15 minutes and think. And they find out it's really hard, but it's like a challenge. And they're treating it like a challenge. Like, can you do this? And they all started doing it. So, yeah, these things are, anytime there's a move in a certain direction, you know, eventually there's a counter move in the other direction.

33:54And we're starting to see some of that. But back to MeshTastic, you mentioned you might use it out there in, you know, no man's land. That's right. And that's actually the primary use case, I think, for this, which is like. I think so too, yeah. In the boondocks, it says right there, it's for areas without existing or reliable communications infrastructure. So I'm sure there's lots of really good uses for this in areas where they don't have fiber runs going to their house. So really cool project. I wonder if we should dig deeper and maybe get some MeshTastic folks on the show and hear about some of their cool use cases, because I guarantee that people are using this.

34:31I would love to explore how to like I don't have a big enough brain I guess to explore how to potentially use this unique ways besides the ones we've talked about like what are some really really interesting uses of it that's what I would love to explore yeah really really interesting uses probably out in the boondocks where there's needs that we just don't even know about you know well like even i wonder if you can connect um imagine you're a 10 location boutique uh retreat or hotel right most of your places are in the boons but you're literally all over the nation is there a way to strategically place nodes to enable this mesh network so that no matter what the connected case is for everyone else you've got some version of your own private network built on top of this mesh tastic i mean that's what you just said but it's a bit more expanded you know right how in the case of like multiple states maybe you'd probably have some sort of a vpn connecting the two networks and have and then the mesh would be like an extender into the boondocks and so you could probably accomplish that but i bet you would use the actual internet in certain ways to actually bridge anything beyond i'm sure that the 331 kilometers record is probably not the the best delivery everything latency dropping packets yeah like that's the record but you want to be closer than that so i assume if you're like we want one big network across multiple states and then when we're you know at each location we reach out two miles to this cabin or whatever it is then your mesh tastic would be meshing from your cabin back to whatever you have at the headquarters there in that place which is just on your local network and then that would bridge via vpn or some other solution to your other headquarters which happens to be in tennessee or whatever yeah you know i found myself exploring more of is specifications i never thought i'd be such a dang specification nerd either creating them or exploring to create specifications heck yeah man i mean not myself but my little ai buddies of course i got you so you're slopping us with some with some specs i mean you can call it that you can call it that but i don't think i don't call it that i call it man slop is another man's treasure so that's true what kind of specs you writing man uh the most recent one was a way to version a go cli because i'd gotten a couple now and i'm like they're all versioned weird and i'm not really writing all the code i'm i'm reviewing it i see the patterns but i was like can we just kind of create one unified way to version go CLIs that are in this in this uh realm of what i'm doing and so i create a specification for how i want to utilize versioning inside of a go CLI And so now I just point the next thing I'm making to that specification and say adhere to it.

37:39And it does. And life goes on. It's amazing. The other one most recently was I swapped out 7Z because it's actually not that good. It's good. It's good. But it has some flaws that I was not personally aware of. And so now I've become exposed to Z standard. which was created by Meta. It's a compression algorithm. And so now my new thing is I'm combining TAR, which has stood the test of time, right? The TAR archive protocol with ZStandard, which is actually ZSTD. And so now I'm looking at these specifications thinking, okay, great. If I'm going to implement an archiving tool that bridges the gap, what I'm calling ZStandard for mere mortals is what Zarch is about.

38:33Z standard for mere morals. That's right. Z standard, which is the compression algorithm that Meta made. Now, it's just the compression algorithm. It's not an implementation. It's a compression algorithm. And so to archive with TAR and use Z standard, well, you can use that pretty easily with the command line, but there's nothing, there's no API. There's no sparse behind it. There's no CLI. And so I'm building a CLI because I archive a lot of stuff, as you may know. And I want to do it in the best possible way. So my most recent thing was going, I haven't really enjoyed this as a nerd too. Like I'm, I haven't, I'm going deep.

39:08I'm not that deep yet, but I'm trying to go deep into the TAR format. When did it begin? Where does it get utilized? Because what happened was, is I had this really great tool, but I was using it on, on Arch Linux, by the way. And, and it just wasn't working. I kept having CRC errors when I was trying to like compress something and test. And I'm like, what in the world is going on here? Is it Dropbox? Is it the way I've used our clone? Is it because I never really tested the memory because I got 128 gigs of memory? Is it because I never really tested the memory properly? Like, what is the root cause of 7z not working properly on Arch?

39:47Well, it turns out that 7z has some flaws that I was not aware of. And I didn't experience those flaws on macOS. They're non-existent there. So on Mac OS, tool works great. On Linux does not. And so I'm like, well, I can't spend my time building this because it's, that's lame. I want the good stuff, man. If I'm going to pour myself a glass of compression, I want the whole glass. You know what I'm saying? And so I went back to the board and I'm like, what's going on here? And so obviously TAR, and I learned about Z standard. And so to round about back to the specification, I have, I'm working on, and I think it's kind of there, it's at version 1.1 or, you know, 1.0.1 or something like that.

40:31I'm semvering, Jared, okay, I'm botching this a little bit. But I've got this specification for how to implement TAR in an archiving tool. And so there's a lot of stuff about the way you'd manifest a JSON file first, and in what order you would actually create the archive to properly support packs or POSIX and things like that in a TAR format so that you don't have jacked up archives. And then you can press them on top of that with Z standard. And so I've become like this little specification nerd. I just like love creating specs because I can point at them when I'm working with agents and say, that's the best version.

41:07I like that version. That's a version that represents the software I want to make. and so i feel like these specs one i'm learning and two i'm defining what i think is the right way so that when i repeat myself i can repeat it against that standard gotcha long story short so you're doing spectra development oh absolutely all day long yeah i mean not literally all day long but like literally like when i'm doing it yes that's the way i'm it's a lot of planning a lot of thinking, which I find is the weirdest state of play I never thought I would find myself in. When I first heard about vibe coding, I was like, ah, those guys are stupid.

41:46What are they doing here? Like, gosh, can you just learn to code already? And now I'm like, why? Why would you go through such depths when you can have your Rust and your Go and you can eat it too? Like, let's do it, right? And I can just work with the AI and within these realms. I'm reading a ton of code. I'm loving it, enjoying it. I'm not personally writing it, but I'm the one who's visioning different things. And so this move from 7zarch to zarch has been fun. Well, your code cup run it over here. All this time, I thought ZSTD was what German folks get when they're too promiscuous, you know?

42:28That's right. I have ZSTD. but instead it's z standard and thank you meta for making how is it better you say it's better it compresses better it's faster what's in what ways do you measure better i don't have the facts fully in front of me but so let me go to their their uh their website and see if i can get it okay so compressor name you got zstd right no it's not the german version of it you got zlib uh you got quick uh quick lz you've got lz4 you got snappy and various other ones that they uh compare against and so when zstd which is short for z standard compresses it can compress at a at a ratio of 2.896 i'm reading this this chart here versus let's say lz4 which is 2.101 So those are very similar.

43:24It's actually compressing at a better ratio. LZ4 will compress at 675 megabits per second, whereas the compression speed of Z standard is 510 megabits per second. So it's pretty fast and it decompresses just as fast. So it has a similar compression ratio, but it's faster on the way in and way out. and one of the biggest issues i've had with the thing i built was like my gosh it takes so long to compress and it takes so long to uncompress like unbearably too long so long that i was like why am i even doing this and so but i like that because i've now learned so much more making all those mistakes and i'm like man i i was kind of upset going down the wrong road and really happily going down the wrong road like this is awesome it's so cool it's useful and it is useful uh and so all i've done now is basically swap out the tool i made with a different compression algorithm and then now i'm like re-implementing against this tar spec how to best implement a tar archive and so i didn't lose a lot of runway in terms of what i built in time i just swapped out the format and re-implemented the way it does tar and we're done the wiser so now we're back to square one but I've learned a lot going down the wrong roads.

44:47And I, and I now have a brand new version of empathy I'd never had for what I would call developers, right? Software developers. I would also consider myself a pseudo software developer. You know this, I've been an unpause for many years. If you didn't know this, now you know. And I'm like, wow, this is what it feels like to go down the wrong road and not be pissed and still be kind of happy because you learn so much along the way. Yeah. That's kind of cool. And then later on, people will come by and say, well, why didn't you just use z standard you're like well because i didn't know it existed i didn't know it existed i had to make those mistakes i had to try it on on uh on arch linux see that and and be like why is this thing not working only to go back to root cause which is a great principle right go to back to root cause analysis where's this problem at what's causing it and then you know what helped me believe it or not stack overflow yeah it was like comments on stack overflow and comments on reddit about issues with 7z on arch and if i didn't find those i'd have been like 7z works everywhere it's amazing it's awesome which is what i thought and it is kind of awesome but it has some flaws that i just can't live with well that's how progress works yeah um so in the real world now so we're looking at a compression speed versus ratio image that compares is zlib is that behind 7z or is that a different thing that is a different thing i think uh 7z uses um i think it's lzma4 now what is it gosh you're testing my memory here man hold on a second i'll get you some information yeah i was close lzma i was right lzma2 and so there's lzma the original uh compression.

46:34And then the fellow who wrote this software, his name is all over the actual stuff. Let me see what his name is, if I can get to it quickly. 7z, the archive format, was created by, so it's both a format and an archive tool in one. So it's not only the compression algorithm, the format, it's also the tool that does the job. And so it's made by a a fellow named Igor Pavlov. And so I think he rewrote LZMA, if I understand the history correctly. And LZMA2 is his compression version of it that 7Z uses. It's great. It does a great job. It's just notoriously slow. And do you like slow, Jared? Slow music, slow jams, slow dancing.

47:26Slow compression algorithms? No, I hate it. Slow internet? No, I hate it. It's the worst, right? Slow's the worst. Yeah, so. This is a slow jam. Those are good. Several things were getting me. I was like, why does it take so long? So what's the real world win for you? So let's say you're compressing one of our episodes and it's like 10 gigabytes. Like, do you know the time win for you? Like it used to be 20 minutes. Now it's seven minutes or? Yeah. So it used to seriously tap my CPU. Like I use this application called, I think it's Clean My Mac. z or x clean my mac x yeah i use the same one and uh it hangs out in your system tray right it's up there and if you go and tap it you will see cpu and it will tell you the temperature of your cpu and so whenever i was compressing with 7z or 7z arch like it was always as as high as possible and it's like hey listen if you don't stop doing what you're doing your computer's gonna blow up basically i mean i was being very kind about it and i was like ah it's it's an app it's an m1 it's got it so i just never worried about it so it would really you know really hurt the cpu for quite a bit and it would take i mean now that we have like 20 gig 30 gig projects easily 20 minutes if not more to the point where i'm like i'd forget about it you know and it and And that just became this, as you know, you know about our Dropbox issues.

48:56It became like, I can't keep up because this tool's jacked up. And I'm trying to compress in archive in a way that gives me a little compression, but gives me an assurance of a single file that I can get back later. So I want a good in and a good out. And I thought 7Z was that. And it just turned out that it was great for Mac. So it's great if you're only on Mac, at least in my experience. And I could be wrong. if you know more about 7z and i'm way off please call me out but that's that's been my experience well one thing i know about 7z is it's been around forever i think when i very first started using linux it was there and so it's old technology and there are reasons why progress you know makes steady sometimes slow sometimes a little back stepping but eventually forward motion and improvement so what is that same 30 gigabytes are you on the z standard now like you've completely replaced and you're running your new thing are you still working on it this is super super early days so i can only give you like my latest greatest but uh time wise so much faster like i was like what you're done already there's no way and i would check it like from 20 minutes to five yeah like ungodly this is like so fast like three minutes five minutes maybe 10 minutes on like a so we had a couple archives that were like in the 50 gig range and that was about eight minutes so i'll be in like the three minute range for most of our stuff and we can and if i do it right if i like if i do this um this tar specification well enough then we'll have a really good manifest.json at the very top of the archive like inside the the archive container the you know, the thing that makes up the, the tar archive.

50:40Uh, and it will have all the cool stuff. It will have one of the other things about archives I've learned is their attack vectors. And I've, I'm not a, I'm not a pen tester. I'm not trying to like hack things, but I obviously pay attention like you do, but I never considered that, wow, I should probably do a better job with this because, uh, if I don't do it right, then, I mean, I don't think our archives are at jeopardy, But if I open source this, when I open source this and others use it and they start getting jacked up because there are attack factors, well, I got to do a better job of security.

51:12And so when I started to craft that specification, it really exposed me to like a couple of different points around what was important. And one of the more important points was being secure. And I never thought about that. So there's like certain things you could do with following file paths and when to cap it, when not to do it. And again, I'm not super steeped in it, but it's quite tantalizing once you have this, I would say, AI is like this guide that can learn or knows a lot about most of the things you want to know about. And if it doesn't know it, it can find a way to learn with you and help you learn too.

51:50And so I find that that thing, that ability in today's age is just so tantalizing. The fact that like if I have a curiosity, sure, it may hallucinate. It may go down the wrong road for a little bit. But for the most part, I can explore some territories I almost would never have before. Not because I didn't have the ability, but because the guide wasn't resilient to my path. Like if I hit a blocker, AI finds a way around it through new information or a different path or an alternative. Whereas a human might be like, OK, I've hit the end of this book. The appendix isn't helping me. And Amazon's down for the day because the latest AWS hotage happened.

52:34I don't know, whatever it might be. Like I can no longer explore over this hurdle. But AI finds a way to help you through all these things. And I just think that's such a wild thing to have, to be able to talk to our code base in ways we've never been able to literally ever in humanity. That to me is what gets me excited about software today. Yeah, it's an entirely new experience and one that is quite interesting at the lowest and exciting at the highest. Depends on the day and the concept and how well it's performing. Oh, yeah. I mean, I wanted to punch the screen today. My AI was not supporting me.

53:12I'm like, listen, listen, I gave you clear instructions. I know you're smart. You're going way over there. Can you please stay here? Right here. This is where you're safe at. Don't go over there. Don't do that. Don't touch that. Stop changing that file. I'm just, I'm being facetious when I say that, but it's a version of that. It's like, listen to me, please. We have a mission. Stick to the mission. Over there looking at squirrels. Get out of here. You know, so, I mean, sometimes it listens well. And sometimes like, listen, I'm just going to do whatever I want to do. And you can't stop me because you don't have any control of me.

53:46I do what I want. Yeah. You know? Yeah. One thing that I've been doing recently, which has given me some success, it requires a little bit of patience in one direction, but it helps me avoid a lot of the tailspins is just like, you know, basically rebooting the AI and just like keeping my conversation short and the context windows fresh. you know, and like all the backlog of things that already knows about the project, like, yeah, just make it go read the files again. So I will do like a couple of features. And it's the first time I see it be like, you can almost notice like, oh, it's building up a hallucination path or something.

54:24I don't know what it is, but you can kind of just feel it. And I'm like, I just control C that sucker and just start fresh. And I just tell it what I want it to do without any of the, sometimes you're like, dang, it already knows this part and already knows we're working on this. And other times I'm like, nah, who cares? I can go figure it out again. That's the, that's the patience part it's like i'll check your files and see what you've been up to you know and you're like well you just knew that until i control c you now you don't know what i'm up to but i feel like it's this is cloud code specifically which is the tool i've probably been using solely for coding for the last two weeks i haven't been using anything else um it's so much better on its first feature than it is on its sixth it's just better and i'm not sure why I made it because it's just like it doesn't have any baggage that's that's the way I kind of mentalize that yeah and so I just control c that thing I'm like let's just have it's like it's like a brain wipe that's like I'm gonna get a new cloud code it doesn't know my code base anymore and it'll figure it out and it'll do the feature and it's gonna be better than if I have the one that knows the code base but also has like I don't know needs to be defragged or something have you ever tried that or have you had experience with starting fresh I know you the code and you do that okay yeah i have a process where i keep a context file like a context.md file and i keep a context dash guide.md which is how i want this context file to be structured if it if it needs to be structured so if it needs to be deep so it's like multiple agents multiple features kind of keeping a lot of things in check and so if i'm like hey you're misbehaving just dump your context to this file and i'm gonna i'm gonna clear context it's like a threat and it's a very kind i'm being kind i'm just joking around when i say that but it's like you're going too far you're not operating well just dump whatever context you have and what you think is next to this file and i'm gonna clear context and i do that happily and i have a command like an unfurl command that says bring yourself back online read this file and measured against this guide so this is how you should read it and you know uh report back when you're ready kind of thing or confirm when you're ready okay and that's what it does it goes and reads that it dumps its context i clear it it comes back i say bring yourself online it's like i'm in west world or something like that which is where i got that line at it's bring yourself back online dolores uh is is from west world and so they do that and it checks it out it's like okay great i see you're working on this i'm looking at that feature we want to do next i'm like sweet now you're smart again let's go gosh we're doing slightly different things i don't let it remember anything i just tell it like i don't want to have any of that context at all i just want to be like a new human and so it's more like the men in black thing you know where are we at here yeah exactly what are we doing here i'm just wiping memory i'm just like no context no nothing you're done i'm gonna open up a new cloud code on the same directory i'm gonna give it what i'm gonna tell it what i want it to do it could be the it could be copy paste when i told the last cloud code but this is a brand new cloud code doesn't know my project doesn't know anything it has a cloud.md so it has some rules that can follow there and that's about it it's going to figure it out from square one and so that to me is like a full reboot versus maybe you're just doing like a go to sleep and wake back up thing neuralyzer that's the word i couldn't think of men in black neuralyzer i will review that context file so i don't like blindly just let it do that it's a way for me to know what it's thinking to or what it thinks is next and so if i look at that whatever it dumps and it's way off then i will i won't tell it to you know bring itself back online by reviewing the context i'll just either delete it or skip it but it's a way for me also to like have a an awareness of what it thought was going on and how far off it was from the truth and there's times i'm like wow that was not true that's that's a hallucination there we're not working on that feature or that's not what's happening here and uh and i won't do that but it's a way to save myself from having to type as many keystrokes or do something to like retell its context or even give it indirection i can just say review this if i agree with it of course and right and then go from there okay friends augment code i love it this is one of my daily driver ai agents to use super awesome CLI VS code jet brains anywhere you want to be augment code can bring better context better agent and of course better code to me augment code is by far one of the most powerful AI software development platforms to use out there it's backed by the industry leading context engines the way they do things is so cool you get your agent you get your chat you get your next edit your completions it's in slack it's in your CLI they literally have everything you want to drive the agent, to drive better context, to drive better code for your next big thing, for your big thing you're already working on, or whatever you have in your brain you want to dream up.

59:22So here's a prescription. This is what I want you to do. I want you to go to augmentcode.com. Right in the center, you'll see install now. And just go right to the command line. There is a terminal CLI icon there. Click that. And it's going to take you to this page that says install via NPM. Copy that. Pop into your terminal. install augment code it's called augie instantiate it wherever you want to type in a-u-g-g-i-e and let loose you now have all the power of augment in your terminal deep context custom slash commands mcp servers multi-modals prompt enhancers user and repo rules task lists native tools everything you want right at your fingertips again augmentcode.com is one of my favorites you should check it out well friends this episode is also brought to you by our friends over at NordLayer.

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1:01:40Enjoy.

1:01:46Well, let's turn now to a new AI role that's exploding. We've been discussing our AI roles. That's right. But we are not officially employed by anybody. Well, I guess we were officially employed by our own company, but we aren't certainly passing our resume around. But if we were, we would want to have the acronym FDE on our resume. Yes. Because that's the new hotness according to interviewquery.com. Reporting on a report, as the internet does, gladly. And I'm actually reporting on the report of the report. So if you're listening to this and then you go tell your friends about FDEs, you are four layers of inception.

1:02:38A Financial Times report talks about monthly job postings and this new role, FDE, forward deployed engineers, are looking to get hired. There's been new job postings to the tune of 800%, which of course tells you it was really low before. and now it's now it's not as low and uh it could be a bubble yeah i mean it could also be from like nothing to some and the 800 is much easier when you have small numbers but nonetheless it's moving and it's a new position led by the forerunners as they call it in the a race anthropic open ai etc people who are out there building these um the models but also the software around the models and trying to nab up as many customers as they possibly can before their money runs dry to have a new kind of engineer, which is somewhat novel, I would say.

1:03:40I call it AI-led because, well, you're kind of leading the AI, but the AI is leading you. I don't know. Who does wag the dog or the tail wag the dog? How do you say that? Who's got that leash? Who's holding a leash? Is it the human or the dog? That's right. Does the dog wag the tail or does the tail wag the dog? There, I got it. The question is that and the answer is we're not sure, but if you want to be an FDE, you're going to have to wag the AI because their whole point is to be deployed with customers. This is kind of how they're different than like a typical software engineer. They're like one-on-one with customers and they're tailoring AI models, whether that means rag, whether that means fine tuning, whether that means literally just setting up the right model to use and providing it context.

1:04:33I'm not sure if that matters so much. That's probably up to the FDE to decide what that, what is tailoring in the context of the customer and working directly with the end users in order to give them what they need. your thoughts on this new thing that uh is new well i have news jared okay i have met I've talked to and experienced FDE before recently. oh yeah uh we're working with redis on an engagement so they're one of our sponsors love redis i'm actually quite excited that redis will sponsor us because like they've never that's cool you know it's so cool right yeah um and they obviously have a lot of stuff around their vector search you know redis is really this you know in-memory cache that's utilized in so many places but they're really solving some cool problems around the AI vector search and embeddings.

1:05:32And like, just, I don't even get it. Like, I don't even play in that world very well. So I don't, I don't really understand the full spectrum of it. But I sat down, I talked to Tyler Hutcherson from Redis and he is a forward deployed engineer. Oh, yes. Yeah. And his entire job is to obviously talk to people like me in some context, but his other part of his job, like the 99.9 other percent of his job, which is not talking to me, is being at a customer, like literally being there for sometimes multiple weeks or a month. And so he'll kind of come in and come out. And his whole entire job at Redis is to not really at all sell Redis by any means.

1:06:15It's not his job. His job is super about what are they doing? How are they leveraging Redis? And how is it working for them? And how how can they make Redis better for them? So kind of like that, they'll kind of like either do integrations, they'll do migrations, they'll do, like they work there, like they work for that company. But all they are to Redis is a customer. They're not paying Tyler any extra, to my knowledge. And Tyler actually works with a team of these folks. Like there's a team. So that's the point of the forward deployed is like, you are not just with the customer, you're like kind of working for them.

1:06:49Yeah. And I mean, you've got to be fully embedded to have the empathy factor. And like you're deep in the, in the water with them. You're waiting with them to kind of figure out, you know, where's the next drop off or, you know, where's the, where's the land? I don't know. What's the point of waiting in the water? I guess you're swimming. Maybe who knows? You're knee deep in something, right? It's sometimes you're not knee deep in what you want to be. You gotta figure out what it is. Sometimes it's poo, sometimes it's water. That's right. whole job is about figuring out how redis is being utilized implementing features taking that stuff back to product product iterating it out now it becomes in the next version of it and so it's just like the rinse and repeat cycle i think that's it's smart it really is smart because you know you got that boots on the ground mentality you've got an engineer doing an engineer's job And their whole entire job is the success metric around it is just make the customer enjoy using it more and solve their problems.

1:07:47And then hopefully, if that is a product feature we should support, bring that back to product. Let's make it a true feature. And you've got as best as you can truth, which is customer usage. How do they fall down with it? How do they triumph with it? How did it work out in the in different deployments or on different architectures? and you take that back to product and you make it real and now they're better and other customers who had their problems better and obviously if it fits into the redis man this is not a redis ad but this is the only context i have i'm sorry that's all right good for you redis you you got this one for free you contested him if you uh yeah if you if you um what was i saying now if it fits into the reddest way of product that's great i mean like yeah that's that's really a uh that'd be a fun job i think yeah that does sound cool let me bring this back to a company like anthropic here uh out and out of redis because that's that makes total sense in the context of redis where i think it's going with these ai model um situations is you have a company like Anthropic who wants other companies to hire Claude, right?

1:09:02To use Claude as much as they possibly can and to get the most value out of Claude that they can. Well, as we've seen lately, there has been a difficult path towards successful adoption of AI in the enterprise. Whether you believe the 95 % numbers or not, our recent show is Sean Gedecky. He does not believe those numbers. You can go read his blog post why but certainly there's plenty of projects that have failed to adopt ai inside the enterprise like the promise is there you get excited you go out and you just like well let's just slap it on something and see if it's just all unicorns and rainbows and it's not and so these fdes these forward deployed engineers that work for anthropic like they would perhaps go in and be deployed into a fortune 500 or whoever it is that could eventually or maybe is a small clawed customer, but could be using it 10 X, a hundred X more if they were having success.

1:09:59And so they are there to help them wield that model in a way that they get a huge value out of it. And I think that does sound like a fun job. I mean, that'd be fun. Yeah, I think so too. I mean, yeah. Wow. I mean, what a time to be an FDE, right? That's right. So if you're not an brand new title, what a time to be that. If you're not an FDE and you want to become an FDE, how do you get there? Well, according to this article, that's a summary of another article that I'm summarizing for you. They say this is a clear signal of a shift from research to real to real world results. And there's a clear message that AI fluency isn't enough.

1:10:43So if you're fluent with AI tools, not enough. Customer facing AI skills are the real edge. it says the most in-demand tech workers in 2026 are not just coders but also communicators problem solvers and translators between ai systems and human needs so there's a short list wow of skills to be acquired if you have those skills you know throw fde on your resume if you don't acquire away and i think that while this might not be the end all be all title because you know every couple years we need a new title this is like the new data science according to this maybe it's a flash in the pan but if it does if it does have staying power then those are the skills you're going to need it's not just the ability to direct your agents in a successful way you have to actually help other people direct their agents in a successful way yeah that's interesting even the way it uh it phrases this it says i'm going to restate again because Like you said it good, but I'm going to say it good too.

1:11:47Say it better. Maybe I'll suck at it. Who knows? Let me try. Okay. The most in demand. I'm going to. You're doing bad. I'm just laughing for the fun of it. Like it's, I don't want to even want to try. I just want to read it. The most in demand. This is, this is profound. That's why I want to read it again. The most in demand tech workers in 2026. That's not this year. It's 2025. Are not just coders, developers. but also communicators, problem solvers, and translators between AI systems and human needs. And that is such a wild thing because there are so many folks out there like that. So when we talk about disruption and job replacement, how many folks were in product teams or these solution makers and problem solver spaces where they were sort of moving around specs and they would say, well, what do you do here?

1:12:40Well, I go get the spec from the customers and bring it to the engineers. right that's what they do around here right right and they're like well gosh everybody's taking my job all these guys are taking my job now well not anymore because you can now go into this role because so many of those people they may be displaced because of change or disruption i think that's a it's like a snapshot of a lot of those folks go do that go do that and if it's going to be in demand next year and this episode is true this is november 11th 2025 when it ships it's you know plus four days do the math i can't i'm stupid go and do this job be an fde for anthropic or the anthropic likes yeah all right let's do one more let's do one more one more and we'll call it a day dead framework theory you know i like these theories you know so many theories today man gosh don't confuse with the alive internet theory okay this is that's right this is the debt we're back to the dead this is different yeah kill the frameworks is the opposite of alive.

1:13:42This is dead. This was written by Paul Kinlan. And he actually wrote a piece last year, which I included in Change Dog News, called Will Developers Care About Frameworks in the Future? And he is thinking he was kind of wrong about that, but he was wrong in a kind of a weird way or a timing way. What he's found and what was news to me, which is why I definitely had to include this, is basically now that more and more people are building with AI agents, it has pushed React into this foundational layer of web development, which he thinks is unassailable at this point. Not only do the models know a lot about React because they've been trained on vast amounts of React docs and examples and open source code, but it's also in the best interest of the tool creators if they want their customers like Cursor, for instance, or V0 or Bolt, these tools, these vibe coding tools or whatever you want to call them.

1:14:47They want their customer, right? The developer and user to have the best chance at success. And so they're just picking React for that reason. So it's like, it's not the winner of the game. It is the game now. and so far so much so that they're hard coding it into their system prompts so like if you're like hey make me a web app like the system prompts like make it a react app basically and so that's why the dead framework theory is like maybe frameworks are over not for the reasons that paul was thinking last year but now he's thinking because basically react is it's substrate fully seated yeah you know what i find interesting about this is um is just that is that like if you're going to code something else let me let me rewind like think about the one i'm trying to say here is maybe a layer above that is that what if future engineers 2026 engineers maybe even right what if like because that's so close that is the future obviously but it's so close that's not truly the future but it is the future but what if in 2026 engineers jobs shift from uh innovating and handing it to humans but they're innovating it to hand it to a llm so the llm can then be using a well-defined standard now in this case react has had 20 well not 20 years how many years 15 14 each years 12 years what year did it come out i can't remember 2014 maybe yeah so a lot you know 11 years call it a decade at least yeah a decade so it's been seen it for a decade let's get the number let's get this yeah 12 years ago i drilled it 12 years okay smart man over there good good for you good yes today i guess good so 12 years all right that's there but what if future engineers like i almost i almost want this as a developer i would rather have a super good engineer who's way better than me who really knows the things teach the llm that really good thing make the framework make the standard define the specs even so that whenever I utilize the AI and those kinds of things, it's just kind of there.

1:17:14It is the substrate like react has become in this case, in your example here, like what if, what if the LM already knows how to write the language? So I don't have to learn how to write the language. I can learn through using it, but it already knows because it was taught by an engineer. It's almost the same concept. It's like, it was taught to use and deploy really good, well-formed, some may not like React, but really good, well-formed React applications because it is a substrate. It is the winner. And so why debate it and just hard code it into everything? Cause that's the way it is the standard format.

1:17:53It's got the most battle tested tests against it. It's been utilized in all these places and sure it's got its blemishes and its flaws but it's the standard so why fight it kind of the same thing but the opposite way which is like not the react way where it was born 12 years ago and it's become that through usage but the opposite way where it kind of comes in from the top it's like it's teaching the lm at the top and it's coming down to the lm through my desire to build out new things and in this case i'm like go and rust are pretty staples like i'm trying my best to never touch trust again because i'm just not that good okay i'm just not that good go i can hang out there nothing against go it's just easier it's easier to read it's easier to work with it's kind of more fun for me at least and i feel like rust is so cool but i'm just not that cool to touch it okay it is it is no doubt super cool i'm just not worthy yeah i'm tracking what you're saying i'm wondering there's like a gap between here and there obviously like the world that you're painting and the world that we live in and ironically perhaps the reason why at least paul says that these tool creators and what as and model creators are front-loading react is because developers need to maintain the apps that are being created and developers know react and so you're giving them the best chance of actually maintaining the produced code because of this deep-seated knowledge across the industry of the last 12 years of how to how to build react-based websites right and if you're going to top load something else that we don't have to look at then i couldn't imagine react being the technology of choice there would be no reason to choose react because their browser already is a platform and the agents could speak directly to the browser via the DOM and wouldn't need something that's maintainable because they're the ones maintaining it and they already speak the browser.

1:19:58You know what I'm saying? So it's like because the humans are still in the loop, we are getting React apps, but if we took them out of the loop, we wouldn't need to have React apps anymore. But we aren't out of the loop and will we be anytime soon? Yeah, I don't know if we will be either. Let me clarify. as you were describing that it it it came to me more points of clarity okay so what if uh really good go developers were really interested in or even employed to make sure that cloud code knew exactly how to structure a go cli so whenever i spin up a new cli i'm not having to start from scratch with context lost or what is the problem i'm solving or oh because it has these these specifics like what if it came from top down like i don't have to think about structure i don't have to think about where the commands go where the internals go where the security goes like all these different things it just it just is because someone who's really good with all the go idioms is teaching the llm so that i can start off with all these sort of like not i would even call training wheels right this is a dang tank you know i don't have to even get a bike i can go right to the fighter jet you know which is totally different when you got two wheels and two wings and massive engines and really high speeds right tom cruise all the good stuff now you know why retreats to attack right there and that's right your jet let's go and and even so far as like versioning like i had fun doing that versioning and go see a lot what if it's an yeah somebody already knew that and taught that's an implementation detail yeah it just yeah it was just an implementation detail i didn't have to do that right that's that's uh i don't know how that flexes out over time but that to me is cool like why should i have to learn all these things when the lm can be taught it from a human and even learn from the ai and this weird cycle goes on and on but it kind of comes down from the top why do i have to sort of start out from scratch telling my lm like hey no you totally botched this structure and now we have to spend And, you know, a day or two hours refactoring like a day in AI time is like one hour.

1:22:11Right. Other one is like, we got two weeks to do this. I'm like, dude, you're going to be done with this in like a minute. I'm not even worried about these weeks. Right. Yeah. So that's that to me is kind of a weird thing. And that's kind of a wild thing to think about. Yeah, I see what you're saying. I think a slight trepidation from any sort of top down design. and the reason why it can be bad is when it doesn't fit your circumstance but you're stuck with it because that's what the agent knows yeah and so you now have to use you have to build the go cli the way the agent says to build it because that's how it builds it you're not actually part of that conversation at all and if you tell it to change it it's like sorry i can't do that adam yeah my ways are not those ways so you have to go that right everybody has their own opinions and their own taste and you and your taste clashes with the top down well the tops of the top and you're at the bottom so you know or even things in rust like memory safety like hey don't ever do it that way that's the wrong way that's always the wrong way i don't care if you're writing a rust cli or a rust back end or low level tooling that taps into ebpf whatever like don't it's never wrong it's never right never do it that way there aren't so many absolutes in software development Well, why do you think it depends is one of our most true.

1:23:32Okay, fine. It depends. I can see. I can see. But I still have once. I still have once. It was a fun ride. Yeah. Well, now you're retreating. I'm waiting for the attack. I'm waiting for him to attack. He just retreated a little bit. Okay. So good thoughts. Interesting. I can, I can appreciate the it depends. I've heard about one, about 1 million times in my life on this podcast and throughout my, my career. So I can empathize with that. I think my dream is to help me think a little less so I can think about vision, product, and user experience. Oh, I think that we could possibly get there without the top-down approach.

1:24:10I think that the more that we codify and continuously improve on best practices and then feed them back into the systems, then the systems will get better at working at increasingly higher levels. I don't think if we take us out of the nitty gritty that we want our agents creating React apps any longer. I just don't see the purpose of that. But in the meantime, I get it. I also think it's kind of sad because you just have this like accident of history. Not that React is an accident of history, but you have like this timing and this talk about codification. a freezing in time all of a sudden. Look at this chart.

1:24:54You look at this chart. So on his website, he has, it's crazy. So this is according to builtwith.com. He says there were 13 million plus sites outside of the top 1 million deployed with React in the last 12 months. And so there's like a straight up chart if we look at React usage over time. Starting in, I mean, it got, it started gaining in like 2018 up through 2022. but in 2023, AKA coding agents starting or coding LLMs telling you how to write code. Now they're aging, agenting for us. Agenting. I don't know what the verb there is, but it goes straight up. I mean, it's just insane how many new react sites are coming out today.

1:25:36You can do the same comparison to WordPress in a different era, right? Like at one point, by and large, anybody developing a blog or building out a basic website for, you know, SMBs, medium-sized companies, even some larger ones. Oh, for sure. WordPress, right? Same curve, no LLM. Yeah. I mean, when you are the de facto, that's what happens. Yeah. So nothing against that, but I think that's... No, I'm not sure to blame React or anything. I think that... I think it's different because there was human choice involved and there is human choice. It's just like two degrees of separation away. Yeah.

1:26:16it's like this self self redirecting feedback loop where it's just like reacts popular because reacts popular because reacts popular because reacts popular and we're not anywhere like when do we step in and say yeah but we don't have any we had a chance to say yeah wordpress is cool but uh what about what else people build websites with what about ghost rails here about ghost what about ghost you know i suppose ghost yeah sure but i think they sort of have more choice like ruby on rails and different there's choice yeah build your own that's your own wordpress yeah we can still build our own things i think that what we need to do in the future is just build everything ourselves you know just like who needs libraries that's what i'm that's where i'm headed if the agents get us there if they get us there yeah explore that a bit more how do you mean i mean because i think testing frameworks are still important protocols and and and known processes that work that are battle tested, fast, readable, you know, digestible.

1:27:20I'm not against protocol. I'm just talking about libraries and frameworks. Right. Certainly protocols and common, you know, bits that glue everything together. Here's a quote. So I've been working on a little blog post that I'm not ready to say much about, but I will say, okay, I'll say this much. Our friend Louis Via was writing on his newsletter that I read. And he's been agent at coding now for about a month, like in earnest, like having fun, building stuff, just like you are. And he wrote out some of his observations after a month of doing this. And he says, here's one of his observations.

1:28:05Each of my new tools relies heavily on FOSS libraries, free and open source. Yeah. But I suspect many fewer than would have been the case in pre-LLM code. Hard to say if this makes existing core libraries even more important and valuable or what. So he's finding what I'm finding, which is like you still got your React, okay? But all of the other stuff that you used to pull in, all those other ancillary libraries, those utilities, those helpers, especially the smaller ones, it's like it's a burden. So just tell your thing to write a thing that does exactly what you need. It doesn't need to be generic.

1:28:49It doesn't need to be abstract. It can be exactly what you need and nothing more. And you have way less dependencies over time. And I think that we're at a point now where we can start to trim our dependencies around the edges and re-implement their limited functionality just for our own use case and remove that. And then over time, bill with less and less dependencies i think that i think that that in certain ways is unfortunate but in other ways it's kind of a good thing like left pad for example no one's for sure left in this future left pad will be less i'm probably never being a dependency again or it would never be specifically but you know the the idea of left pad being a dependency like that in this new world an llm can easily replace that thing and it would it would never pull it in it's dependencies like oh i need to move i forget what would a lift pad even do like padding around or something like that like something's padded a string on the left side you know it had blank spaces to a string right the way you want to use it yeah so they'll alone be like yo i just did that no left pad required almost every almost every developer in human history would also have done that one that's why that one's hilarious only in the javascript community would we just you know pull in a package for that.

1:30:04But yes, exactly that. Let me go slightly more complicated. What about a markdown parser, for instance? Ooh, okay. Now you're getting me excited. Well, because I mean, markdown parsing is a known quantity. Like this is not rocket science. This is, there's a markdown parser in every language. People all have written them, et cetera. Well, what if I need a feature where it's like, I want to be able to add markdown links to this text blob, you know, so you can put your square brackets around your text and then you can put your parentheses and put your link in there. And we're going to take that and we're going to know that that's a thing.

1:30:40And we're going to either translate it into HTML or maybe into an iCal thing or wherever we can output it. Okay. Well, in the past, perhaps you would pull in a Markdown parser. I got to get the Markdown library of the day. Or I write a really gnarly regex, right? In the future, why don't you just write your own little Markdown parser? because it's going to take seven minutes for glob to do that for you or 40 seconds and it might not be a full markdown parser that supports it doesn't have to support all of that you don't need all that surface area you're not worried about bold and italics and stuff like that you're just all you need is a link right and like there's a place where it's like yeah a regular expression could do that but also you're like well now i want the links but i also maybe i do want the bold italics okay my markdown parser just does bolds italics and links and it's 500 lines of code versus the official markdown parser for ruby which is like i'm just making this up i have no idea what it is it's 17 000 lines you have to compile and see extension blah blah blah blah oh yeah dang it's true you know so like stuff like that yeah yeah those things you start to eat in from this from the fringe and you start to like eat your way into your dependencies until they're all gone yeah i think that's the kind of open source we won't truly miss i think the open source we would miss like if uh like if you no longer need a ruby on rails like that level of replacement that might be a different world to live in i think those are the last things to go i think they're they stick around the longest because they're the biggest most valuable i mean react sticks around the longest yeah and i think as long as humans desire and need to read the code or desire to have visibility into the code and it's never because i mean there could be a world i mean i'm living in a world now where i still tell people i i tell people i'm a a technologist and a software developer and a podcast and all the things i do and then i tell them like i'm doing things with ai i never thought i would do i'm literally it's science fiction to me still yet i still can't believe what we can do it may be a couple more years where that may be true like i just invent into framework and it's so good at doing what it needs to do that we, that we stopped checking it because it's just so good.

1:32:54It's always been good. And that might be five years or a few years on the road, but it might get to a point where enough of the human race, who's doing this kind of work and pushing this kind of boundaries, like, you know, every time the thing does the thing, it's good. So I don't really care about the code really ever anymore. I used to, but now I don't. I'm not saying I want that world necessarily, but I'm, what if? If that's the next evolution is like, it's just become so good that it could talk to the Dom. And in fact, it just reinvented the browser. You know, Dom's gone too. By, you know, like the things you thought were never going to be replaced are replaced, you know?

1:33:32Yeah. Who knows? Yeah, we'll see. I'm still of the opinion, even though I've gone away from my AI winter stances, my plateauing, because I've been wrong about the plateau on a couple of occasions. So, you know, I don't like to be wrong. I'd rather be right. I'm not going to be calling plateaus anytime soon because I've been wrong enough. But I don't think we get from where we are today with Transformers to that. I think we need some other and some other thing most likely will come around. So I'm not saying it's not going to happen. I just think that we need another step change to get to that level.

1:34:07I think we can get very far where we are. Let's try to hypothesize what that might be then. Can we do that? Oh, my goodness, man. Man, I'm not a computer scientist. I'm a podcaster. Well, I have some ideas. I'm a podcaster too. I don't know if this is true, but I wonder. I mean, because we are moving at such a pace now where the hard things got easier. And I would love, maybe this is where we should go either this year if we have one more opening for it, which I think we don't. Maybe it's a first of the year kind of thing, because I tried to do it last year, is dive into quantum computing. I think that that's becoming the new furrow ground because we've got such advancements in artificial intelligence, LLMs supporting, you know, large swaths of generating code that we're moving at a faster pace on the things that were hard.

1:34:55So it's obvious like something that that will be next. We've talked a little bit about like biocomputing recently. That was kind of wild. And even that was in the research phase. It was cool to have that conversation and, you know, no harm, no foul to the person that we interviewed. she was amazing but it was still research so for sure it still wasn't quite here it was in the works they've had some issues they've had some stability issues they've got some clear windows of where they can go but i wonder if that next invention layer like you say is not here with transformers uh is solved or is because you've got microsoft doing like some cool stuff that I've heard about where they've got like a, a computer in like negative 500 degree temperatures doing something.

1:35:44And I'm not in that world. I know of all that stuff, but I saw a video about it doing something, you know, like this quantum stuff. So I wonder if this quantum computer, this, this thing that I'm not even that familiar with is the next big thing that comes sooner because we're here now so quickly in building software. It's such a clip that we never had before? Yeah, I can't answer that question. Like if you made me stake my life one way or the other, I don't think, I would say, I don't think quantum computing takes us to AGI, for instance. I think it's like a different kind of thing, but I could totally be wrong about that.

1:36:18And I think there is other things that are coming beyond transformers. I just don't know what they are and when they're coming and how far transformers can take us. But even guys like Jan LeCun, which is like, you know he is a computer scientist like capital c capital s and one of the the smartest ones that i can you know fathom in the industry he says that we're not getting to agi with transformers and so i'll just take his word for that i don't know what the next thing would be and i'm not the guy to invent it somebody else will invent it and then you know i'll complain about it you think agi is required to in to reinvent the dom or the browser or to make pretty stinking smart rails obsolete i think you gotta be pretty good like agi agi probably not but uh something way with way more uh con uh conscientiousness i don't know like it has to have actual smarts not just instant recall of the world's information you know yeah yeah that's my take but love to hear other people's take on that because uh i've been wrong before i think it was 2017 back in 2017 i was wrong and um yeah that was the last time so were you what you're wrong about i was following you until i realized you're josh you're there i'm like i just messing around that was a long time ago jared since then are you pulling yes you're pulling my leg stop doing yes i got you yeah yeah you did get me for a bit there great conversation this was fun yeah oh did you push record oh shoot you did yeah i gotcha i gotcha oh hey that's just a throwback y 'all our last friends episode we did together we were sad if you if the first few minutes of that episode go back and check it out just like we seem a little gloom because we are we forgot to push record we talked for like 45 minutes total gold and you missed it because that's it was it was going to dev no and that's not cool let's leave the folks with this go write an agent right yes go write an agent listen to changelog news go write an agent changelog.news if you're going there this week well that's going to be there for you if it's next week well then go back a week but either way uh thomas how do you say his last name well i think it's pronounced tachek because it's polish i believe but it's spelled patay check yeah thomas tachek there you go co-founder of fly we love fly we're hosted on fly thank you fly co-found he's one of the co-founders yeah okay cool um i think he's was he cto i don't know i don't know what he is i don't know he's been around a long time yeah i know he's a co-founder though over fly we love fly we use fly amazing but he wrote this really awesome read it's 13 minutes long you should write an agent and i read it i agree i don't have time to write an agent but i i think i'd like to it'd be a fun exercise because then you got the you get the full empty factor of what it takes to make one of these things and maybe you can make your own little archie or alph or pick a name that's fun to you and maybe it's suzy i don't know pick it yeah make yourself a little agent who knows there you go and then tell us what you named it we like naming things around here i tried to name something archie recently man that's why i said that because i was bummed because I think it's archiving tools.

1:39:41Yeah. I wanted to call it Archie. And so I think it's, yeah, Archie core. Just spell it wrong on purpose. That's what everybody else does. Maybe so, but I think it's Archie. What was it? Something that was like that. There's an Archie out there and I found it and I was like, okay, I can't, I can't do that because this is like AI native cloud infrastructure. Is that the most buzzword ever? But that's what they do. And And that's what they are. Archie Labs, Archie Core. Don't know who they are really, but I found them. And I'm like, I can't call this thing Archie. So I called it Z-Arch. Nowhere near as good.

1:40:17I mean, I think Z-Arch is cool. Why? Well, it's because it's an Arch way that's in somewhere over there in Germany. It's archiving. It's totally focused on Z-Standard. Not other formats. This is Z-Standard for mere morals, man. Z-Arch. Not Archie. I think Archie would have been cooler. I'm just trying to make myself feel better. Okay. Right. It was like when you don't hit record and then you still record a show after that and you try to make yourself feel better. Archie would have been cooler. Yeah. Well, you know, just, uh, spell it wrong on purpose, man. Just spell it wrong on purpose. I guess you could say A-R-C-H-Y.

1:40:54I could try that. Bam. I mean, it's not done. I didn't release it. So I mean, it's, this is a skunk works project at this point. It's my fun name. Z art sounds cool. We'll see. All right. bye y 'all bye friends go code an agent have fun listen to news change law.news and we'll see you when we see you bye bye friends so i mentioned inviting spencer chang creator of the alive internet theory website on the show to discuss good news he got back to me and he sat down with me yesterday to talk all about it and a bunch of interesting art pieces he's building that entangle with our everyday lives and each other.

1:41:34It was a fascinating conversation. We'll bring it to you next Wednesday. Oh, and let us know if you enjoy these extended news discussions with Adam and myself. Maybe we'll do more of them. Maybe we'll do less, but we can't divine whether or not you dig them. So you'll have to tell us. And if you want to discuss with us what we discussed with each other, that happens in our community's Zulip chat, which is free and joinable at changelog.com slash community. Thanks again to fly.io, to depot.dev, to augmentcode.com, to nordlayer.com slash the changelog, to Breakmaster Cylinder, and to you for hanging with us.

1:42:10Let's do this again next week. Speaking of next week, next week on the pod, news on Monday, Spencer Chang on Wednesday, and Chris Benson talking drones and robotic swarms at the edge on Friday. Have yourself a great weekend. The hand of the diligent makes rich. And let's talk again real soon.

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