Saltiness about frostiness (Friends)

31:54It was weird how Craig's talking about like all these pictures of our loved ones on our lock screens. And the two examples are a dog and a kangaroo. i'm like do you just live in the office dude people love their dog maybe he's a private person um the uh the the other do you have anything to say about the lock screen i think it was pretty one and done no i think it's good i guess in the home screen you can make all your out your your icons clear you're going to make your icons clear yeah and they had themable you know they had themes last year and now it's like transparent as a theme of course you can also change to like orange tinted everything and all that custom tint right and of course clear which i would never do but i'm sure some people are going to do it and enjoy are you are you going to go translucent across the board i don't know there's been a recent trend right to kind of go back to that sort of game boy pocket with the sort of translucent you know hardware design where you can sort of see the battery underneath it and stuff uh-huh i'll i'll try it for a day honestly like i don't use my home screen at all anymore i i'm just always launching via spotlight pretty much anything that i need yeah i have how many home screens do you have like if you swiped do you have a lot or you have one i have i i have five and all of them were accidentally created by accidentally dragging something out of the app library other than the first one is just my my photos uh widget because i want to see the daily photos otherwise i would never look at my photos and you know that i find that delightful uh and like map and i don't know my ring a lot Like the stuff that I absolutely need to be able to hit in a touch.

33:32Anyone waiting for them to kind of rethink how to make the home screen useful. This isn't the year for you. No, no. And the squircles are the same shape as they always were, despite what the rumors were saying. Yeah, my use is very similar. I think I only have two, though, but I would I have like photos widget because, yeah, when it pulls up things out of your past, like that's a delightful moment in your day. And then like weather just for a glanceable thing and then calendar and then everything else. I just swipe down and start typing basically to just launch because I'm sure there's just thousands of things down in there and I can just summon them by swiping down.

34:07So no, gone are the days where you swipe sideways, sideways, sideways, looking for that one particular icon. You know, the next thing up here is camera. And we talk about swiping. They redesigned the camera app. The camera app looks nice. There's just two tabs now for video and photo, which is nice because currently it's like, you're basically forcing your users to remember, does cinematic mean video? Does panoramic, can I do a panoramic video? Nope, that's the photo thing. He said, quote, all your controls are just a tap away. But the thing is, then he shows a swiping gesture of some mystery meat navigation that you have to swipe left to right to change the type of thing you're looking at.

34:49And then another swipe up for the controls themselves, like your f-stop and whatnot. and so what they've done is they've made it look really pretty but i think that like they've really just hidden a lot of the complexity hide all the people don't yeah because most people don't need it you know like the the the camera team's first and foremost job is to make it so that you can't take a bad photo you just point it at a thing because the thing their job is to figure it out and you know i liked how you put it in your newsletter where it's like you know the skill needed to take a great photo is asymptotically approaching zero i think that's true yeah and that wasn't true when this previous iteration of the camera app was being developed.

35:25So I'm kind of curious your take on the camera app. I think simplified as much as you can. You know, the nerds are going to nerd out and they'll find, they'll tap and swipe. And so many people are now camera aficionados as it become like the way that you share and the way that you do everything influence, so to speak, that if you can just simplify the UI and just make it dead simple for those of us who are just trying to take a picture. And then, like you said, do all of the fancy software stuff in order to make sure that my picture looks good. I don't want to care about f-stop or shutter speed, or is the flash on auto or not.

36:00I just wanted to know what to do in order to optimize this picture. And for those of us who are like, yeah, that picture was suboptimal. I'm going to go ahead and like do the thing. Yeah. They'll, they'll swipe and they'll figure it out. So, uh, I think it's a good move. And I think it's funny that you say it's a, It's a tap away when it's not a tap away, but, you know, words are hard. Well, you know, we talk about Sherlocking in these in these keynotes all the time. It's like, oh, this app just got Sherlocked by Apple's new feature. Well, when Apple hides stuff or takes away complexity for the sake of, like you said, streamline, make it simple for the masses.

36:33You know, I think this was a great day for Halide. Like if you want that extra control, you can still get it. And there's an app for that. And that I think is actually probably appropriate and probably a good thing overall, just based on what you're saying. Yeah, no, I agree with that. I agree with that. Make room for the apps to do their special things for the power users. Like, you know, cover the 80 % case the best you can and just don't worry so much about the 20 % case because you have an ecosystem for that. And, you know, there's developers who can make good livings by providing that software.

37:07And then eventually Apple decides they're going to take it away and do it themselves and then they get mad. but that's the yeah yeah yeah there's life there's a curve here right it's like you you know like you're you're the company halide that like starts doing stuff that like apple can't do yet in their camera app so you're at the leading edge then apple figures out how to do it and they do it and then they realize that's too much and then they pull it back and now you're the only app where people can do it right i think i think you get sherlocked when you come up with a great idea first and then Apple recognizes it's a great idea.

37:38You know, what, what, what Apple, I think more recently is aware of much more, especially on the, on the iPhone and iPad is like they're doing this for the masses. Like they're, you know, you work in Apple design, your mom and your grandma are going to call you when they get mad at you. And in fact, the next thing that they talk about was the photos app. And we didn't get an apology with Apple intelligence. We deserved one. the closest we got to an apology in the entire keynote is this is this line from craig many of you missed using tabs in the photos app really craig what happened to my tabs where did those oh right last year you announced that you're taking my tabs away it sounds like like some they just mysteriously disappeared and they've brought them back you know it's like the passive voice comes back again exactly yeah somehow those tabs disappeared so uh there's now two tabs there's library and collection.

38:30Honestly, I'll be happy with this new Photos app if I take a photo and then I launch the Photos app and then my photo is in the Photos app. That would be wonderful because right now I have to wait 15 seconds for cloud things to happen or image signal processing to finish or deep fusion to occur. I'm not sure to get all the threads in the sweater perfectly coiffed, but that's a recognition, I think, that people were upset about the Photos app. Otherwise, there's not a lot new there other than this new spatial photos thing. And based on my experience with Vision OS, it is really cool. But if you have to tap, I want to spatialize each and every single individual photo and then wait for five seconds for the computer to do its thing, no one's going to really do that.

39:16It would need to be a sort of modal interface where you just, I'm in spatial mode now and I want to see artificial 3D video game looking versions of all my family long since past. It's probably, you know, like a lot of these apps, it's a it's a light year for new features. But a lot of little kind of paper cuts have been touched up throughout. Well, I think that will be much appreciated with how dramatically they changed photos last year. And I mean, it actually prompted I don't know you call the people who don't upgrade like older backers i don't know luddites like it prompted people like yeah i'm not gonna upgrade i'm gonna wait which that's not what apple wants like they want everybody running the latest they do not want to have a subculture of people running you know a previous version of ios and somehow dodging updates as long as they can just because they hate and and and the photos thing in particular became like a tiktok trend didn't it like people i think it even made like late night tv i can't remember if it was like colbert or um the british fella whose name is a lid me right now last week tonight john oliver somebody did like a whole segment on it like how mad they were about it just sucking and it's like that's when it starts to like permeate everybody is when it's on late night tv and so maybe that's why i got the shout out from craig what's up nerds i'm here with kurt mackie co-founder and ceo of fly you know we love fly so kurt i want to talk to you about the magic of the cloud you have thoughts on this right right i think it's valuable to understand the magic-minded cloud because you can build better features for users basically if you understand that you can do a lot of stuff particularly now that people are doing llm stuff but you can do a lot of stuff if you get that and can be creative with it so when you say clouds aren't magic because you're building a public cloud for developers and you go on to explain exactly how it works what does that mean to you in some ways it means these all came from somewhere like there was a simpler time before clouds where we'd get a server at rack shack and we'd ssh or telnet into it even and put files somewhere and run the web servers ourselves to serve them up to users.

41:27Clouds are not magic on top of that. They're just more complicated ways of doing those same things in a way that meets the needs of a lot of people instead of just one. One of the things I think that people miss out on, and a lot of this is actually because AWS and GCP have created such big black box abstractions. Lambda is really black boxy. You can't pick apart Lambda and see how it works from the outside. You have to sort of just use what's there. But the reality is like Lambda is not all that complicated. It's just a modern way to launch little VMs and serve some requests from them and let them like kind of pause and resume and free up like physical compute time.

42:02The interesting thing about understanding how clouds work is it lets you build kind of features for your users you never would expect it. And our canonical version of this for us is that like when we looked at how we wanted to isolate user code, we decided to just expose this machine's concept, which is a much lower level abstraction than Lambda that you could use to build Lambda on top of. And what machines are is just these VMs that are designed to start really fast or designed to stop and then restart really fast or designed to suspend sort of like your laptop does when it closes and resume really fast when you tell them to.

42:32And what we found is that giving people as primitive is actually, there's like new apps being built that couldn't be built before, specifically because we went so low level and made such a minimal abstraction on top of generally like Linux kernel features. A lot of our platform is actually just exposing a nice UX around Linux kernel features, which I think is kind of interesting. But like you still need to understand what they're doing to get the most use out of them. Very cool. OK, so experience the magic of Fly and get told the secrets of Fly because that's what they want you to do. They want to share all the secrets behind the magic of the Fly cloud.

43:07the cloud for productive developers, the cloud for developers who ship. Learn more and get started for free at fly.io. Again, fly.io.

43:21I'll skip ahead a little bit just to say that the phone app got a huge redesign for the first time since. Yes. The last time the phone app was designed at all was back when the iPhone couldn't make phone calls because it was on AT &T's Edge network. and like, you know, it was useless for that purpose as well. But like the phone app really hasn't changed at all since 2007, 2008, other than to handle like the larger screen real estate. This new phone app, this unified call history list and just one nice little tidy homepage is opt-in. You know, Apple is not forcing change on people in that way anymore.

44:00And honestly, I think that there's probably a world where a lot of the people who got really angry about the photos app would have been totally fine with it if it would if it had been an opt-in thing they might have even discovered it and then suddenly thought that it was kind of cool and different but what as soon as you move somebody's cheese and tell them like nope this is just how it is now uh then then you invite the backlash as a total aside to the phone app where it's related but it's not in the feature list there's a new generation and like my you know my kids are one of them now my my 15 year old son just got a phone number for a while.

44:31He's had the phone, but it's just been Wi-Fi only. He's got a phone number. They have no idea what it was like to make a phone call on the plain old telephone system, like POTS, landlines. They've only ever used these things. I just am thinking this because I had the first phone call with it. I'm like, he has no idea how to even use a phone. But aside from that, they don't know how crystal clear and like latency free the phone system was like when you just like called somebody and like you know the cord was going into the wall compared to the way these things work now like it was like you're in the room with them it was so good at least in the 90s when i was using i'm sure it started off bad and we've kind of just lost that i mean it's never coming back i don't think there's just too many environmental factors for them to care about that i don't know what you think your thoughts are on that why it is that the quality of the sound and the latency of the voice on the other end of just we're talking about the phone app is just so bad and continues to be bad ever since they it was AT &T and you couldn't even get the connection through for a while there but it's just not good I know they've they've released features over the years saying it's going to sound better now and I haven't had a phone call on my iPhone that sounded like quick and vibrant and like full fidelity ever.

45:49And I just think it's gone. Well, I think because whenever the carrier is involved in the transmission, it means that there is somewhere there is your 1990s cordless, you know, phone, their RCA phone that, you know, you got for$20 at Radio Shack is involved somewhere in some switch. Yeah, exactly. And some nerd listening to this is excited because that switch is running Erlang. but that is the reality right like even if you're using you know your wi-fi calling or whatever it's like your wife your end isn't the problem you know like your end isn't the reason this sounds like trash it sounds like trash because it's not end to end and so that's why whenever possible i just use facetime audio and then i'm always amazed at how good it sounds by comparison yeah you know it does sound a lot better it's just like a thing where I guess FaceTime audio feels like a step or like a, I'm sure there's a toggle where it's like always use it if I'm calling an iPhone, but it just seems like it's not being used most of the time in my life.

46:51And so I'm never having good quality. Like I'm just mad when someone's talking to me on the phone, regardless of what they're saying, you know, like content aside, I'm still angry because it's so hard to hear them and like have a high fidelity conversation. Anyways, just ranting now let's know well for what it's worth it may be that that step is starting to be obfuscated a little bit because they also announced a new home screen for the facetime app and the thing about the phone screen home screen the the phone screen unified timeline that they showed is that the phone app also shows your facetime calls now just like a facetime app on like your mac or whatever would also show your normal phone calls because there hadn't been a phone app, although there's a phone app now on the Mac and the iPad.

47:36So the fact that these are separate apps for basically, you know, FaceTime is the app that you use if you want it to not sound like a bucket of assholes. And the phone app is what you use if you want it to, you know, have to engage with the world outside of our carefully tended garden of an ecosystem. And it really does feel like this should be, you're basically creating two entirely different user interfaces that people have to learn when the only difference is the protocol underneath and people shouldn't have to care about what protocol they're using they don't understand it they don't like your son doesn't have any clue right yeah it'd be like if they had like an sms app and then like a messages app and you'd have to pick the one that you wanted when they they unified them you know they made the green bubble blue bubble whatever and maybe that's enough to let you know hey this is a facetime call this is a regular call but we shouldn't have to think about these things, it should just sound better and be better when it can be.

48:33And hopefully that happens eventually. Well, any, any good feelings that we had about the opt in nature of this new phone, phone app, I'll opt into it because I'm just a sicko and I opt into all the things like you had to hold me back from putting developer beta one on my phone. And I was going to ask you, I have a rule that I try to keep with myself as I don't install betas while I'm overseas. because I need my devices to keep working. So not yet, but the minute that I get back to America, I'm just turning over all of my everything. All my iClouds are going to be completely corrupt. They're going to be corrupted as hell to all of the bugs.

49:17And that's the thing I don't understand is when you install these betas, your iCloud, if you're logged into your iCloud account and you're running this beta software and it is super buggy, all you're just doing is inviting a whole bunch of cockroaches to infest all of the key value stores across all these applications. Right. And you're doing that. You're going to do it. Well, you know, why stop now? When you get back. Yeah, exactly. But that to say, I don't think that the changes that we saw on Safari are opt-in. I think that this is a pretty significant change to how Safari looks and feels and behaves.

49:56And I don't know if it's, once people start using it, if it's going to invite the same kind of backlash that like the compact tabs interface did a few years ago. Or what were your thoughts as you looked at the new liquidy, glassy Safari? Just like a trepidation mostly. I mean, it's like my favorite app, Safari. and it's my most used app probably on my phone. Maybe next to messages. I think Safari and messages are probably my two. If I was going to check my screen time settings. Well, maybe YouTube. I don't know. I don't have to go through the whole list of things I use, but it's just one of my favorite apps.

50:36And, you know, I don't know. I'm going to withhold judgment, but I have a little bit of trepidation, you know. I feel like they're moving my cheese, but maybe I like the new cheese better. You know, I'm open to change. I'm not resistant. I'm just a little trepidatious. What do you think? The thing that they always say about these changes to Safari, whenever they try to make the controls hidden or the controls smaller, is that you have more room for your content. And I think as nerds, we react to that by saying, no, you're saying is we have less room for our buttons and our controls and our functions and our utilities.

51:15And so I think that's one reason why there tends to be resistance. But the truth is, if I'm looking at a webpage, I don't want to see the buttons. I know that there's a thing that I can tap to go and do another thing. As long as I know how to do that, I'd rather just see another paragraph or sentence worth of text. And as you're scrolling, the new Safari does the thing that a lot of websites do where they will, you know, minimize or hide or elide some of the menu bar in the website and stuff to kind of make the content pop out. And because now all of Apple's device, when iOS 7 came out, the screen was a rectangle, right?

51:53And with iPhone 10, now the edges of your device are round recs. And even on, I'm looking at my, you know, MacBook Pro right now and all four edges of the operating system are roundrecks. They use the term concentricity, I think, multiple times to describe that we're going to have roundrecks within roundrecks now. And Safari is the same way where now if you use CSS, if you're a web developer and you're familiar with those safe inset zone variables to make sure that your content doesn't get too close to any of the edges, if you're not using those i suspect that the footers and the headers are going to look real goofy with just how much more space to roam there is because you're going to have controls that are kind of floating over stuff now right so it'll be really interesting to see how those variables function because it's just so much more space than it than it used to be um that's probably the only thing that's gonna throw people off but we'll we'll have to see and then again if they get liquid liquid glass dialed in correctly so that it's not so and it's kind of i think muddy would be what i would say it's unclear to me depending on what's behind those specifically like the address bar and the back button and the dot dot dot those three buttons that are kind of in the lower third now what's going on behind there you know like it just kind of obfuscates things and it's not always clear where it stops and starts and so it's just a little bit like it needs to be polished still but again that's why i'm i am withholding judgment and i do want more space for the websites so you know i'm not against it in principle we'll just see if i'm against it in practice and then if i am you know what choice do i have it's just it's the way i go like i've got to launch you're gonna you're gonna move to europe and then and i'll have browser choice in europe yes i i don't need to just get away from this ui i need a whole new rendering engine just to kind of have a taste in my mouth from this crap yeah you know they're gonna back away they're gonna they're gonna frost it to the extent needed uh i know i know i know that's why i'm having a little bit of trepidation you know what if they don't frost it to my extent needed safari is still gonna safari uh and everyone's gonna use it a bunch and if it's bad enough they'll fix it uh i i think the uh the the kind of sleeper hit of the i suppose it was the ios section still that they're doing this was carplay like there's a lot of carplay stuff in this it was a big there was a lot of carplay user are you a carplay guy absolutely now does this i'm a carplay guy but i'm not really sure how it works because i haven't paid close attention does it run off the phone meaning like it ships with the new ios or does my car have to have something to do with it how does it actually work oh i got one question for you do you drive an aston martin uh no i don't oh in that case then then it absolutely runs on your phone all right if you if you if you drive a brand new aston martin there is some apple code somewhere that's the car play ultra some stuff has to run they're the only ones about they said there's a there's a lot more cars coming but they didn't say they didn't list any brand partnerships or anything the only mainstream makes to my knowledge that have announced carplay ultra support uh other than i think porsche might be the other other one that would previously analysis is honda ikea genesis like that the korean trio uh those makes are all supposedly coming to carplay ultra but but if we first of all like just to close the loop on carplay ultra they just showed this off like two weeks ago they had the top gear guy you know like do the demo of the carplay ultra and the aston martin and they did all that with the ui that they knew they were going to throw away two weeks later yeah like i'm not sure that ui is actually shipping to a single car like tough timing that's commitment to the bit right there is that they knew that they had to get that out the door and they're like all right well this is going to be totally rewritten well it took them two years to get a car didn't it i mean they first announced it a couple years ago yeah and uh uh it was supposed to be the end of 23 and then the end of 24 and here we are halfway through 25 and and they nailed it uh so so look forward to that apple intelligence series sometime in mid 28 there you go well for the regular carplay users like myself i just update my phone and my car updates sounds like and that's amazing because i can't really trust the gm to uh do anything time sensitive with regard to software updates unless they want to send me into a dealer which they is one of their favorite plans like you need a firmware update go into the dealer i'm like i am not going into my dealer unless this carplay feature is very compelling in which case you can have a car mechanic who doesn't who doesn't really understand how software works or yeah exactly what usb is yeah so to answer your question for anyone who's confused about carplay in their lives your phone runs it and then when you plug in or when you're wirelessly connected it's literally like a sidecar display it's like a second screen and so it's all just projection uh and so yeah for anyone playing the home version of this game carplay uh has gotten a complete redesign it looks all glassy it's the first time it's ever really gotten a new design there's a 3d looking all full screen map view for navigation that they showed off that looks pretty cool that is it also picks up your live activities.

57:33So the live activity is going everywhere was something we knew was happening because it was on the watch last year. When you're in the smart stack, you'd see your live activities. It's going to show up in the menu bar now in the Mac OS and it shows up in CarPlay. So you can see this very, very tiny little progress bar of how your friend's flight is progressing while you're driving. And they literally showed that off and said, helps you stay focused on the road which i hit i did laugh at that i was like as i'm staring at this tiny little icon like what does that say oh man talk about no one no one at apple has the reality distortion effect capability but they're all striving for it like they keep going back to the well like well if i as long as i say it's helping you stay focused on the road you know what really helps you stay focused on the road and i think this is like saying the quiet part out loud for all of us regular people who like to watch sports and you just can't wait until you get home to actually watch the game is if they would just put airplay in the car play and just let me send whatever sporting event is currently on my phone up to the giant screen in my dash and just accept the reality that we want to watch sports in the car while it's moving and my kids are trying to watch it.

58:47It's actually safer if it was right there in a big screen in the dash than it is floating around on my phone as it's passed around person to person throughout the car. So that's a feature that I'm sure regulators will never allow. But actually, I think it's going to make a lot of us more safe if we could just throw that on the big screen versus trying to watch it on our phones while we're driving, because we know that's what people are doing. Here in Japan, it is a, I don't know, very poorly kept secret that like, it is extremely easy to jailbreak your car display to show live TV broadcast over like, and you know, antenna broadcast basically.

59:26Uh, and so when you're driving around or whatever, or, or in somebody else's car, it is very common for them to be using that massive screen to play broadcast television as they're driving around. And, uh, it is extremely unsettling. I would say like, I don't know if you really want this wish to come true, Jared, once you factor in other people's driving. The more unsettling thing is somebody on their, you know, that they're 10 and they're two and they're holding their phone up there and they're just glancing back and forth between the phone and the road because the screen is so small. That's what people in the States are doing.

59:58So. Well, Jared and I both live in red States, so I want to be clear. That's true. I'm in the Midwest. So, you know, your mileage may vary and your accidents may vary. Well, we got to keep this rolling, Jared. I need need to ask you a question okay how do you feel about background images in your text threads i feel i've never been asked that before uh trepidation i think is the word of the day i just i couldn't possibly care less about that how do you feel about like are you in any whatsapp groups or do you use any other messaging apps that have tacky ass background images that make it difficult i have whatsapp but i don't use it very often um i try to avoid it i haven't seen this in the wild if that's what you're asking but apparently you have some pts yes so so when people talk about apple's messages apps being app being behind the two things that they tend to call out are oh you can't do custom background images on threads which to me is good because every time i've been in line or in whatsapp or any sort of third-party messenger, it just looks so tacky.

1:01:10And the images themselves are ugly. And it reminds me of using ICQ, you know, like way back in the 90s and you'd have sort of like the era of WinApp skins. Like it was cute that we could do it then, but it makes it less readable now. I don't really know what app I'm in. I just feel uncomfortable. And then now if you're in a group thread, anybody at any time control anybody by changing the background image. Apple added that. So Apple relented and they added it. And I really, of all the things that I hope that there's a setting for in this OS, I really hope I can just turn that off. We'll just get new friends, you know?

1:01:48I might. That's my solution. I have left group threads over less. So there's that one. The other one is typing indicators and group threads, which honestly, to me, I don't love the typing indicator generally, but when I'm typing to a group, it's actually like I feel a little bit, I feel a sense of calm that I know that they can't know that I'm typing into the group. You know, I can think about the reply and then like, yeah, you know, I'll respond to that later. But now giving people a reason just to stare even more at these group threads or see the Apple equivalent of several people are typing.

1:02:26I'm not sure that's a net win, but that is something that people point to and say, hey, the Messages app is behind. Right. I don't know. yeah i feel like that feature if you extrapolate law of large numbers and go across all of the users think about how much wasted human time there is just watching those dots waiting for it to come through you know when you don't have to yeah i i think slack eventually added a way that you could just turn off your own ability to see the people are typing indicator because i'm a total dummy and i'll just stare at the chat if somebody's typing i'm just like all right i guess i'll just stop working.

1:03:03I guess they're going to say something. I'm just going to stare at it like a dog, you know, waiting for a bone. The other group chat change is that you finally have group cash. So if you've got like, you know, one person who goes and buys a bunch of drugs for the group, everyone else can chip in and pay their portion of the cocaine bill, you know, using the, the Apple cash, which is still because they don't do the IRS reporting, like, you know, Venmo and stuff. If you're going to deal drugs and you're fortunate enough to be in America and you can't use real cash. Apple cash seems to be the best way to go.

1:03:37And now you can do that in groups. So check, um, Oh, so you, Oh, I see. So you're totally okay with driving while watching NFL games and crashing into other people. But when it comes to figuring out how to split the bill on your. Speaker 1 00. Fentanyl. Yeah, I just, I'm just a generous person. I just always pick up the tab, you know? Oh, there you go. See, good say. Not a problem that I have. The other feature that they added is, and I don't know if this shows up as just a iMessage apps. Remember the iMessage app store that you can build apps for iMessage? Yeah, I remember that. I don't know if Apple does, but there's still that plus button where you can do stuff.

1:04:18Right. And they've basically, because Doodle dropped the ball and became this extremely confused company that charges you for everything. i think there might have been another app called straw poll but they they finally built polls group polls into into imessage so you can you know if the question is when can we all hang out you can finally get that answered right yeah that's cool i mean catch up game right maybe 80 solution makes sense polls are common roll it in a lot of these are little touches yes sure like doodle to the doodle i mean come on they dropped the ball earned it they absolutely did uh the the the big one in terms of and and they didn't use the term apple intelligence here but this is exactly the kind of machine learning feature that you'd been talking about is yes the uh uh the spam detection right right and that's great i mean i'm here for it too much of my stuff is spam uh i block and report everything same and it does no good ever it does no good i know oh, it's doing no good.

1:05:26And yet I'm just going to do it anyway just because I'm mad at them. You know, I'm like, I'm reporting. Sometimes I insist that this is it being inconsistent and me not just failing to remember the order that you're supposed to do this in. But when I get an SMS that I don't want, I very often will want to type stop at it to make it go away and also report it as junk. But if you report as junk right away, it goes away. And if you type stop, sometimes the report junk button goes away. So I genuinely don't know which one I'm supposed to do. But that won't be a problem anymore. I'm skeptical of the slime ball on the other side will actually take my stop message and do anything with it.

1:06:02All they'll do is confirm that, yes, I am a live human and they're definitely going to email, you know, text me next time. I think the carrier intercepts the stop. I think that's one of the last vestigial thing. Somebody write in. I would love to know the correct answer to this. If that's true, I'll start to do it, but I actually don't do it. I just delete and report as junk every time. Jared, how about you text me after the show and i'll respond stop and then you let me know if you saw the stop but i won't know that because i won't be getting your text anymore doesn't it have to be doesn't it have to be like a specific kind of thing because couldn't you just like i tell you too many funny jokes and you just tell me stop and then they can't just intercept that and block there has to be more to it can't they i don't know i don't i don't use sms on purpose they're like this guy just blocked you for too many funny jokes that's just not right well anyway all that to say they're they're they're adding spam detection to iMessage and they're basically you know it's exactly like you've seen probably in any social network where you've got your other messages bucket of just all the junk all the crap and so that gets all ferreted away over there and Apple's promise to you is that any sort of time sensitive thing that you actually want is going to be presented still in the main view which strains credulity when you look at the priority notifications and the stuff that kind of gets through there you know their example was your table is ready at yada yada restaurant but the problem is like now every spam messenger is going to start with your table is ready at the whatever hey have you thought about signing up for a new health care plan you know like that's i don't i don't know if their models are smart enough right that's the problem was like apple's world like their demos and their everything is always this like pristine version of life that doesn't actually exist and i wonder if their models just reflect that and so they won't be able to handle the real world who knows but holy cow we're still on ios man we're getting deep into it yeah we got to figure some we got to move along here genmoji still exists you can remix things that's great moving on image playgrounds uh they realized it's bad so now it's chat gpt well yeah exactly just with postage stamp sized images they are good at it they used the phrase elegant to describe an oil painting that it made uh which was a choice but when you think about how much these scripts get reviewed like sometimes you anyway uh translation live translation everywhere So I'm here in Japan.

1:08:33I speak Japanese. I spent 20 years of my life now traveling here trying to learn this freaking language. That was all a waste of time, Jared. I think so. You know, procrastinators win again. And of which I am one. Yeah. I mean, who needs to learn languages? Just live translate that sucker and communicate with the whole world. You know, you sent you send an iMessage now. And what that looks like is they'll see the actual text you wrote as well as it's basically annotated with the their preferred language, which I think is a good way to do it. You wouldn't want it just to kind of instantly convert just in case like, you know, the translation misses some nuance or something.

1:09:11It's also built into FaceTime with subtitling, which I think is very nice and tasteful. Yeah. But then they showed the, we can also, they built a call API to do audio translation for audio calls like phone. Did you watch this demo? YouTube is doing that as well now. they have they had the transcript feature where they would translate your transcript and that becomes the subtitles in the translated language but now they've added dubbing which is pretty new it's in beta we're like actually they're going to dub your voice and you can opt in opt out etc and that's what this is right it's basically dubbing your voice into a new voice i guess or it's a clone of your voice this is more so the call api as far as i could tell is more like line translation where you say your line on the phone and you are heard and then a Siri sounding stilted crappy voice that's nowhere near as good as chat GPT's advanced Scarlett Johansson voice right well yeah right oh they didn't pay her anyway don't worry about it ask for forgiveness not permission but then then that voice will speak in the other language right and then the other person will speak and then it'll translate again so now you know what had Admin, two exchanges of audio becomes four.

1:10:27And so these conversations, and then on top of it, slower. So like these are going to be very stilted, painful conversations when you're just on the phone. And then, and the demo is so awkward and suboptimal in my opinion. Then they followed it up and said, oh, and now it's an API that you can use with any of your other calling apps. So I'll be curious to see what the uptake on that is. Yeah, I mean, the panacea, or I guess the end goal here would be live dubbing as we talk. So, you know, it comes out my mouth in English. It goes in your ear immediately in Japan, in Japan, in Japanese. And the hitchhiker's guide babble fish, you know, just sort of translates in and out for you.

1:11:07Isn't that the end game? I mean, you don't want to wait on a translator if you don't have to. The best part is I would never actually have to hear your real voice and you wouldn't have to hear mine. It would just be two robots talking to each other. I could just have Scarlett Johansson talking to me. As God intended. that does sound better yeah i'm not gonna lie all right moving on that sounds cool they're getting there speaking of translation uh lyrics now i i as part of my japanese study i started listening to j-pop a lot oh wow i'm not and you're not proud of it i was like you admit that freely now i now i don't have to go and check lyric definitions outside the app because it translates inside it even has pronunciation guides you know i think the the popularity of uh you know k-pop and stuff and people wanting to be able to sing along to songs that they didn't you know can't even read the characters for totally legit uh i think it's a great feature the the other thing that they announced that's new is auto mix so this is like like a dj is planning like you start a song and then you start auto mix and i feel like how many wwdc's and how many software keynotes have they announced this exact feature?

1:12:16You know, it was like, remember the smart shuffle and then the genius playlists and then like, you know, the stations? Like this is, they even had the playlist where you could like, you know, have AI generate what the next thing in the playlist should be even just a year ago, I think. I'm curious how automix is different. Huh. Or better. New name, probably. New name, same feature. same underlying mediocre ability to detect what the next song should be and then hit skip so you get to one that you actually like you know skip three times and they'll find one for you and unlike spotify it will have nothing in the back end actually learning from what you skip you will just keep skipping oh no they'll give it right back to you soon maps app you know the only real new thing is that maps is foursquare now so it remembers the places that you visited and you can search the places that you visited which is actually kind of nice i mean so much of the time i'm i'm uh i'll leave a restaurant review just so that i can find it again later because that i did navigation directions to it isn't enough there's so much low-hanging fruit to make maps just way easier and way more useful that like that like for instance when we were just in seattle like i enter the hotel's address in and I get directions to it so that it's in there.

1:13:38And then I go to search and like, I have to go find the late, like later on in the trip, like you go back to your hotel three or four times, whether you're on an Uber or a lime or whatever. And it's like, just keep my most recent places in there. Like there's even a recent, like there's a section for it, but like the fact that I'm staying at a hotel all week, it can't seem to get that figured out. And like, I want to pin it or whatever I got to do. Mark it as a favorite to come back to it. But it's not really a favorite. I'm not going to go to this hotel again. Marking it as a favorite is kind of just, it's just a suggestion, right?

1:14:11It's like, it just increases the odds by 20 % that the search is going to actually show the thing. I know. It's like, why can't you just do these little low-hanging fruits better? So hopefully that's what you're talking about here. I don't know. That's what I'm talking about. We'll see how it gets implemented. And, you know, again, this is opt-in because, of course, you know, a lot of people are having extramarital affairs and they saw this and they started freaking out. So then Apple had to follow up immediately be like, whoa, it's opt-in. You can delete any single thing from your history and this is all on device.

1:14:40Your secret's safe with us. Yeah, I don't really like when Apple, like, enables degeneracy. You know, like the – what's the app where it's like hide it from everybody? It's like basically there's your porn app hidden from the world and they're just going to, like, help you do your secret things in secret. It's like, let's just let people get caught with that stuff. If that's what, if they're going to be idiots about it. I don't know. I'm not down with this kind of stuff. It's like, Hey, you're having an affair. We got your back. It's like when, uh, when, when Craig was on stage announcing the, uh, uh, the hidden app feature, I was disappointed that he didn't sprinkle in any sort of euphemistic dad jokes into that.

1:15:19They played it straight. Uh, I can't remember what they say the use case is for that. Cause I can only think of one, like most people can only think of one use case for the hidden apps. Like when would you have like a, a non shameful, so to speak, hidden app use case? Like to be honest, the, the one case that I've always wanted Apple to do, cause only they could do it with their platforms is a plausible deniability mode. Like I would love to be able to put my, like, like type in a pin code, for example, that would put it into a very boring ass looking home screen with nothing in it. and with none of my data there that I could then, if I was ever under duress and had to hand it over to a security person, I could hand them the phone.

1:16:00Yeah, exactly. Yeah, the phone is unlocked. Here you're playing with it. And because it's on an encrypted disk, there's no way for them to be able to attest like, oh, that's not really their data. That is the mode you'd want. But of course, you know. But that has a useful use case for all humans, like some privacy against oppression, right? But not like drop one app into a folder. Would any country on the planet allow Apple to continue selling iPhones if it could do that? but they're totally down with the hide your hide your porn app folder hide your porn apps hide your kids hide your wife hide your porn apps uh so anyway that's the maps app i don't know man uh yeah we'll see how that plays out hopefully uh the wallet app they they bragged about how car key adoption is getting picked up and then they bragged about how the exact same nine u.s states that have driver's licenses still have driver's licenses and that seems to have totally stalled The big announcement for the wallet app from the ID perspective, though, is that digital ID for U.S.

1:16:56passport holders is coming. And now it's not a state-by-state thing. That'll work at TSA checkpoints, supposedly, which is kind of all most people wanted out of the – they were clear to say it was not a replacement for your physical passport. I don't know if that means you still have to have it in your bag or something. But it'd be really, especially with the real ID fiasco in US airports, if I have to imagine TSA checkpoints would be expedited if us one dozen nerds who figure out how to find and enable this feature start using this. Yeah. I'm excited. The additional, talk about Sherlocking. I don't know if you use Flighty, but Flighty is an app that's a popular iOS app that you can share, you know, the little progress bar of your flights.

1:17:41You can do a lot of really cool stuff with Flighty. They basically Sherlocked it in the form of now your boarding pass will both have indoor maps of the airport at the gate where you're landing. So you can navigate there as well as a shareable interface that becomes like a live activity for any friends and family to watch the progress of your flight, which I think is neat. Seems pretty cool. Yeah, I will use that. And I think other people will use that too. What else we got? games there's a games app and and it's just game center and i don't think anyone cares yeah you can probably move on yeah they just game centers games okay cool we got we got places to be this isn't a three-hour podcast justin that's right although it's looking like one so we gotta move yeah we gotta hustle visual intelligence so that's the button the camera control if you're in a i just realized yesterday that in i'm in japan mode and so i i don't have visual intelligence here uh so i when i hit the camera control button it just opens my camera which is weird uh but actually kind of welcome because of how useless visual intelligence is if you uh press and hold the camera control it opens visual intelligence so you can take a picture of a poster and have add that posters event to your calendar which has happened zero times outside of a demo yeah but i can't imagine using that in the real life for this in the keynote they're rebranding it they're like If you're at a store and you see a plate that you like, you can take a picture of the plate and then visual intelligence will show you how you can buy that plate online or something.

1:19:20A decade of Google Lens being not used by anyone for anything wasn't enough to dissuade Apple from taking a stab at this feature. But visual intelligence has been effectively rebranded this time around. Now it's getting added to the screenshot UI. So you take a screenshot, you know, if you, first of all, it looks a lot nicer now. It's not a better place for it, I think. Totally right. Like there's the, you might be familiar with at the top of a screenshot. If the site or app supports it, you can choose between rasterized screenshot and full page where it's like a scrollable thing. It'll kind of come out as a PDF.

1:20:01That's basically now getting an additional functionality where you can do a visual intelligence search based on whatever's in the screenshot and it's much more likely you're going to take a screenshot of something and then want to turn that into a calendar event and so that's the that's kind of what they're going for and it makes sense in that sense too because like if you want your computer to do something for you based on how something visually appears taking the screenshot is the most natural action that people know how to do people do it all the time too they're like they know how to take screenshots they do it all the time and so this is as an extension of that I think will make it get way more use.

1:20:36I've been taking a ton of screenshots and then just using the share button to send that to chat GPT to ask about it. So I think that having it built in at the OS level makes a lot of sense. All right, let's be done with iOS. Woo, holy cow, man. People are saying this was a boring keynote, but if you sweat the small stuff, I think there's a lot of stuff in here. There was certainly a lot discussed. I mean, they went 90 minutes and we're sitting at almost 80 minutes here just talking about their first 30 minutes. So watch OS, I'm not a user. I'm not interested in watch OS. I lost my watch two years ago.

1:21:12I've never felt better. I didn't buy a new one. And I feel freedom from closing rings and having notifications go to my wrist. And like, I couldn't be happier to not have a watch, not have an Apple watch. I want to never have an Apple watch again. Although I did watch the watch OS segment and a few things that made me think, oh i should get an aviwatch but that's how they do you know the workout stuff is cool except for i don't know if this is jumping the gun but the buddy the workout buddy is that the watch os segment and was that the work i was wondering is yeah yeah it's workup i was uh is he excited about workout buddy is he going to be the person let's talk about workout buddy and then let's skip the rest of watch os because there's just too much to talk about i think workout buddy is so creepy like the voice is bad and the cringiest oh my god it's so bad i i mean i understand conceptually why it might be cool and i think i think the nike app has something similar like there are workout things that have but they might be real human voices this is like straight up siri voice or their new version of siri voice and it couldn't be less it's like this is a this is a a voice in your head i am motivating you right yes you did a great workout i believe in you exactly who are you what is this there's a there's a workout app that we that i my sister and i use sometimes that it's a real person but she does a stock like 30 minute whatever and she walks you through stuff at the end she always says good job you crushed that workout and i always say you don't know that like you know maybe we just phoned it in and it's just funny because there's a disconnect in the reality of it it's like this thing is so not real that i couldn't possibly motivate a single human to think that like you did a great workout today is going to be like feel it's not going to feel good thanks workout buddy exactly i wanted to give up halfway through but man thanks to you watching that bit of the keynote so i you know i we've talked about this but i built an app last year for my wife called uh build with becky it's a subscription program for strength training it's got lots of videos of becky in all sorts of doing all the movements and And each program has got a little video explaining it.

1:23:22And she has always gone out of her way to not make like value statements or make assumptions about what's going on the other side of the screen with somebody. And I have a newfound respect for her professional restraint. That's a great way to approach it. Because even this gal, I don't even know who she is. And she does a good job with her app. But when she says, great job, you absolutely crushed that workout. which he says at the end of every single session, I'm just like, I roll every time. And if you could just skip that part, you're going to get credibility with me at least. And workout buddies, the opposite, like, it's just your little motivational speaker in your ear.

1:24:02And it's not even like the voice doesn't even convince you like it's, they could have got better voice actors or something. I don't know. The whole thing seems like cringe to me. There, well, maybe there's somebody who works at Cupertino who is actually motivated by workout buddy. I'd like to meet that person that's so would i they'd probably be motivated by lots of stuff you know like it's just very easily motivated if you're yeah uh hey so you said you were looking forward to something about watch os again but then we talked about workout buddy it wasn't workout buddy it was just like the advancements in the workout app and kind of the new design of it and the way just like they just continued since i it's been a few years since i've used the workout app because my watch broke and i never got a new one and so i just quit using the workout app i quit using the health app.

1:24:47I'm just like, I live life like a normal person. You're way more mindful now, now that you don't have the mindfulness app to worry about. Exactly. I don't have to stand up when it tells me to, I don't have to breathe when it tells me to. It's like, I'm not a minion to this thing on my wrist. And so I'm just happy. But when I do see kind of like the advancements in the workout app and it, it just looks like, you know, they know that that's what people are using the watch for. And so they've made it really good. And so that makes me think, oh, that might be good. Cause you know, that you still have that feeling of like, oh, tracking myself would be cool again but um it was just a momentary weakness and i remembered no that's that's a life of hell just live your life and go ahead and just exercise when you want to i will say in terms of what got me excited about it is the liquid glass design i think looks it is the makes the biggest improvement to watch os over all the other os's and it might be because because the background of watchOS is black and so the glass is like legible.

1:25:46There's no overlay. As it exists, like the little, the newer watchOS designs where all of the controls are on the corners, as opposed to all these scrollable UIs, those buttons are really tiny. They can sometimes be hard to spot. And now you can clock those liquid glass buttons way more clearly because they're glossy and there's like a little bit of momentum around the pushing of them. so I'm actually kind of excited because as you're scrolling through the watch like there's just more physicality there and like there's way more it's a it's the only os that has is now higher contrast thanks to the existence of liquid glass uh compared to all the others and so that's yeah that's worth something and uh you know messages gets backgrounds on watch os too which is terrible uh oh but watch os has the notes app now finally so you can take notes do you talk to it or how do you take a note they didn't get to that part but they're there okay all right well we'll see and i'm excited about it because i go for my run with my watch every day and i don't take a phone with me and so i'm just adding reminders constantly using siri which fortunately at least that usually works yeah but being able to append to a note or something hey i'll take it uh tv os uh it is they mostly just talked about new new stuff coming out they're like content content content I think that they actually organized the show a lot better this year because instead of starting with a totally out of place Apple TV teaser of trailers and stuff, they just moved it to the tvOS section because the tvOS is really about the content.

1:27:19They talked about two of our most popular apps. One is the TV app that you have to use for basically every function of the device. And the other one is music, which I don't think anyone actually uses on purpose on their Apple TV. I've never used it on the TV, I don't think. But, well, now you can do karaoke and your phone can be a microphone. And you can sing into your phone. You can sing into your phone. Yeah. I'm not on board with that until it's ready to score me and teach me pitch. Me being louder isn't the thing anyone in my family needs. Yeah. I just want it to live dub me with Whitney Houston's voice, you know, then I'll be on board.

1:27:51Yeah. I want you pretending to be Whitney Houston to be my workout buddy, Jared. Now that would motivate. That would, I'd be motivated to do something. Mac OS. So. Yes. Finally. We start this section and Craig is driving again in the little scooter. And I noticed maybe for the first time that just like Jaws and previously Phil always claims the iPhone Pro announcement segment, that Craig always reserves the macOS piece for himself. And I kind of like that. He clearly loves the platform the way that you do. So I think I'll hand it off to you and you can share your opinions. Oh, I mean, I'm just really excited that Spotlight's gone steroids now.

1:28:39I mean, I feel like for me as a lifetime Spotlight user now, I did start off like every Mac nerd on Quicksilver and I've tried Alfred. Yeah, Quicksilver was what got me into it. Yeah, Quicksilver. But I'm also a minimalist. And so as soon as Apple offers an 80 % solution, I just kind of turn into an 80 % user versus continuing to power use. And I find that my life is simpler that way. and um and so when yeah we're not going to install halide we're going to use the new camera app and we're just going to be done absolutely happy one of the masses you know that being said of course i get feature envy of the alfreds and now the raycasts and all the other things and i have to defend myself against adam and nick and apparently yourself who's also a raycast user and just like all the way spotlight is good enough for me but not as good as those other things and they just really revamped spotlight and added so much functionality to it that I'm like a, I might even install the beta just to get in on this thing.

1:29:39And I'm not a beta installer myself. So that's, that's the biggest thing for me. There's tons of little things, of course, as we go, but that's what probably the one thing that truly got me excited. It was like, oh yeah, spotlight, biggest update ever. Let's roll. Yeah. The spotlight demo, I didn't catch the name of the, the, the person who, who was delivering it, but he wrapped his demo by saying, and that's how it boosts my productivity. He actually talked in the first person, which I'm sure he's getting taken back to the woodshed afterwards. Because that's not, that's not according to their corporate speak.

1:30:15But I think, I think it was coming from a play. They probably let it slide because it was genuine and authentic. Like it was clear that, because he starts the demo saying spotlight's gotten its biggest update ever. And immediately my eyes glazed over because that's the 30th time they've said that about Spotlight and then like, then I installed the beta or I installed the release and then Spotlight still can't find Safari. Like it spins the, you know, the, the wheel and whatnot and can't open apps effectively and can't find any of my files. And so that's typically, I think the most, the biggest reason that Quicksilver and all these other things became popular was Safari was just so slow and its index was so poor.

1:30:53Now, you know, Safari, you use Safari every day. Like it can launch apps, you know, quickly. it can find files but what they've added this time is it can do it can basically execute any single app intent so any app that you have installed that has intents which is the same UI mechanism that feeds into shortcuts that feeds into what will later be called Apple intelligence again like if you want to create a it basically can create a Mad Libs multi input interface so like if creating an email as a function call and it's got a you know uh addressee and a subject and a body you can type in the quick keys for mail whatever like i don't know i'm making it up mtspace and then it'll fill out the madlibs and then you can actually just tab through and fill in all of those different pieces of the function that ui looked slicker to me than anything that you can do in raycast even yeah it does look really cool now would i actually use it probably not but hey it's got clipboard history so let's rock and roll you know there you go clipboard history man that's the other thing that's that's that's the white whale easy i'm a simple man justin i'm a simple man i'll be interested to see how clipboard history interacts with uh security like whether or not the passwords app when you copy something there like there's there they're probably being pretty smart about alighting that the other thing that's really nice is that this is the first time I can remember that Spotlight's really meaningfully customizable.

1:32:24So those quick keys, like the two-letter acronyms to go and launch one of those app intents or to launch a particular app, that's kind of why I use Raycast. I have been using it for the AI stuff until AI just became everywhere and ChatGPT had their own Mac OS app. But look, the quick keys in Raycast are like, I hit G and then I hit tab and now I'm Googling, well, I'm cogging the web really, really quickly wherever I am. So yeah, this, this really seems to catch up spotlight with most of the reason most people would be installing some third party command space bar dingus. Yeah. And the Raycast CEO, whose name is escape me right now, we've had him on the show prior, uh, took to X and probably LinkedIn as well.

1:33:11I didn't check other places to write today. I think a big, I don't know, is a diatribe a bad thing? It's not a bad thing. It was a response to a certain extent, but it's like, you know, he didn't save the 280 characters. He went full. Like, is it a post? I don't know. It's a long thing for a social media platform kind of responding to them being Sherlock. Like he's basically like, I think we just got Sherlocked, but you know, here's where we're going to go from there because they really did catch up in a lot of ways to the Raycast's value proposition. So I think that was just push Raycast to do new, interesting things.

1:33:44That's the hope. Either that, or they're going to go away and they don't want to go away. So I think they'll have to innovate. And if it's an 80-20 thing, I think a lot of Sherlock apps do this where it's like, cool, now I get to lean even more into my niche, right? Like if you have a niche, you've got a reason to exist. Now I can get even more 20 %-ery, you know, and that can be a great thing for the power users who probably are the early adopters of the app in the first place. Yeah, exactly. So Spotlight updates are cool. There are shortcuts coming to macOS. That is big. not as big for me because you know i can write bash scripts and stuff but like i think this will bring that kind of opportunity to weigh more people and of course shortcuts does have hooks into apps and stuff that bash can't necessarily get at so there's some stuff so mac os has had the shortcuts app but the thing that it hasn't had is the automations tab and that is finally there and like it was three weeks ago that i had to go and do that dance where you figure out how to add a new launch D agent to a computer and I had to do it so I could run this backup shell script.

1:34:49And do I know if it's running or not? I don't know. And so then I had to add to that script something that would literally email me upon success or failure to know that my backup was running because there's just no observability until like launch D from the in user space, right? Like I'm trying to write to a log or something and then shell into my computer from here. But like now that you actually have real, that automations tab and kind of have it be triggered by stuff. You remember like really old apps, like was it Marco Polo was the app where you could like have your network settings all change based on what network interface you were using and connecting.

1:35:22This is like 2005, 2006. Like you can now have a shortcut run based on which network you join, right? Certain apps launch, certain times of day. So having shortcuts automation running on the Mac, which is probably the most likely computer you have that's on 24 seven, especially if it's a desktop version. So if you've got any sort of household server-y kind of tasks now, shortcuts can be that place for you. And the other big feature is one of the actions that any of those shortcuts can take is you can ask ChatGPT or local LLM or private cloud compute to do stuff for you. And I think you can actually, it will try to massage it into a structured response based on where you plan on that thing going.

1:36:09So if you've got it iterating over whatever the results are, it kind of gets the clue that like, hey, I want to be asking the model for a list of items, which I think is super duper clever. Yeah. Yeah. The demo that he showed was like he highlighted some text he had in some stupid document he was making for some stupid reason. and he's like i want a new tagline for this and so he highlighted the text he's he launched spotlight which launched a shortcut or something that handed off to chat gpt i believe unless it was an on-device model i can't remember but it's handed off to an llm that said like generate me some taglines that are better than this one and it came back with like three different options that he could actually then tab through so it's like some sort of list structured data that he could like select one of those and automatically either copy a clipboard or just like replace it in his pages app that's fuzzy to me as well but it's it seems like there's some nice seams there to make it pretty useful versus just like blobbing out random crap and you have to deal with it i think there's a ton of apps right now that are charging 10 20 bucks a month that are basically wrappers around OpenAI's API key, and they do like one thing.

1:37:23And now anyone for free can basically create a shortcut action that is effectively a low-code, no-code AI app. And they don't have to f*** around with API keys and they have a decent enough interface that they can navigate that. So I think this is going to be something that a lot of users are going to take to. And it's a net, really a big win. Like if you're a developer, you know, you do get access to the models, but only the local LLM. Like you don't get to talk to private cloud compute. You don't get to talk to chat GPT, not for free. You got to go and get your API keys for that. So if you're just an end user using shortcuts, though, you do get to talk out to the cloud and you'll get, you know, potentially like better responses than a developer would.

1:38:08Now, there's going to be a story for that over the course of the next few years. But I was impressed that like Apple actually went for it and lets you, you know, call through to the models in the same way that, you know, knock on wood, the context aware, you know, Siri eventually will be able to. Yeah, I think it's going to be super useful. And I think a lot of people will have access to these things who otherwise wouldn't without some serious vibe coding chops, you know. Well, moving on. Do you have any other macOS takes before you move on to your favorite operating system? I will give you, first of all, continuity is amazing.

1:38:43And I love anytime they add continuity features, which they've done not very much of, but still some. I think the continuity, I'll just reuse their word, the continuity between devices is one of the reasons why I still appreciate these platforms working well together. And the more they can make my phone and my Mac continuous, the happier I am. I give you five minutes on Vision OS and then we're cutting you off. Yeah, that's fair. Yeah, start the timer. I'm going to go back to macOS and just say that the biggest continuity feature in macOS is actually the concentricity of the sidebars. You know, I just imagine John Syracuse cringing real hard when the sidebar became a floating round rect on top of a round rect.

1:39:30Oh, I know. But they did a separate video and they explained why that is. And I think it makes a certain sort of internal sense, even if visually it's going to take some getting used to. Over in VisionOS land, not a lot has changed. Although I think more should have. If you're going to jump 23 major versions in one year from VisionOS 3 to 26, you should expect more than this. But the persistency, I guess, of widgets and Windows was the biggest thing as far as I could tell. You know, personas look a lot better. There's some enterprise features that probably don't apply to anyone on this call or anyone but the two enterprises that have adopted Vision Pros.

1:40:14Right. There's a Jupyter environment. That's great. but really like the existence of widgets as things that you can place in your space you can kind of just draw a straight line to what apple's end game is is like why would you buy one of those crappy displays that has a wi-fi connection to one gigabyte of your photos right that you put on a mantle when you could just have one of our glasses that you wear and you have placed your real photos on there and it's in high resolution and it's always updating and it's always in the same place or like you can put a clock on the wall right i'm a guy who's got a six-bedroom house and i have nothing on any of the walls i i'm i'm real minimalist so the idea that i could like put crap up with my vision pro and then have it all be there in the exact same spot forever honestly that doesn't appeal to me very much but i could do it in theory and i was gonna say you can't be excited about that then yeah i'm not in fact i'm i'm kind of worried because the other thing that's persistent now is all of your windows also are always in the same place but like i use my vision pro from like five different spots in my house and i move around a lot and all it did was remind me of that one version of mac os it was probably 10 years ago at this point that whenever you reboot the computer now like now then and now like it by default will relaunch all of the apps that you had been using put the windows in the same place so basically like why do i why does justin restart his computer it's because my computer is getting slow and it's too bogged down with too many things running so i reboot the computer and then it's like great now i'm just as slow and all the app state is also all incorrect so i've right i've created you can check that box though right there's a box you can check that says don't do that there's a box you can check but it actually only does it some of the time in certain certain like basically i i got into this dance where i hit command shift W to close all the windows in every app and then command Q across every single app just to clear the deck of my whole computer.

1:42:16And then I reboot. And then I blank slate. So now with vision OS where you have even less control and you don't have a keyboard in front of you, I'm worried it's going to just, you're going to boot up and it's going to be like, hold on. It's going to stiff arm you for like 90 seconds while it boots all your crap and it's in place. But as somebody who uses vision pro from an EAMS chair at that sort of reclined state, the fact that the ebus chair got highlighted in in their demo was that made me happy i got a moment i don't even have five look i don't even have five minutes of content they don't they don't have a lot to show for vision i don't yeah um i appreciate that i guess i don't know what the future of vision os looks like i think it's a long-term play for them so they'll continue to invest in it but they sure didn't have much to show over the last 12 months of investment the biggest hint that there is new hardware coming in my opinion is that they that they're shipping the feature where two people in the same room both wearing vision pros can watch a movie together because what's going to happen is they're going to release new hardware and then a lot of spouses are going to receive handing down vision pros that's right that's there and so as soon as that happens they're going to get up calls off the hook being like hey how do i watch a movie with my wife or whatever.

1:43:32And I think they're just preempting that. So I suspect that probably not by the end of this year, but maybe the March next year, we're going to get vision pro too. All right. Quick aside in order to round out your five minutes, what do you think of Johnny Ive joining Sam Altman to build some sort of hardware device for open AI or with open AI or whatever's going on there uh what do you think that is what do you think they're making it's obviously not an answer to vision pro but it's going to be a competitor to whatever apple's putting out next etc what are your thoughts on that i mean we don't have enough time to to dive into the the psychiatric analysis of that sam and johnny video that they put out i will say that the fact that like the lorraine powell jobs interview with financial times like and the admission that like there have been quote unquote dark uses to the iPhone and to a lot of the inventions that Johnny I've had a hand in and that they both have a sense that like there are bad externalities with the phone which is something I've been talking about since I the very first day I got my iPhone edge I was like out to dinner with Becky and I was like ignoring her so I could watch the new yorktimes.com page load over the course of three and a half minutes on the edge network and I was like this this augers poorly for humanity was my sense in 2007 yeah and that did come to pass right and all sorts of terrible things have happened.

1:44:57But the idea that like the solution to that is like, let's give the keys to the kingdom to this guy who basically wants to make Skynet is I suspect that even if they come out with the perfect device and this device is truly, all it does is increase girl self-esteem and help people who are addicted to sports gambling on their phones find a healthier, happier way to live. like even if all it does is solve a lot of these problems that Johnny Ive helped create, then what's going to happen is they're going to cash out, they're going to retire, they're going to move on to the next thing. And 10 years from now, this same product line is going to reach the same point of maturity where they have to squeeze more blood from the stone.

1:45:43And you're going to wind up in the exact same situation that Apple kind of finds itself now painted into this corner where like most of their money comes in from Google search referral money and from, you know, Candy Crush Wales is most of the services revenue, right? So those perverse incentives, I think, are just sort of an inevitability of basic capitalism when you're trying to chart quarter over quarter growth. And so rather than fight it, I think being cognizant of that's the reality we live in, let's design devices based on, you know, what that end game looks like. Coming in like, you know, eyes wide open makes more sense to me.

1:46:21So to answer the question of what do I think it's going to be, I think it's basically going to be a humane AI pin with a better back end. And still no real solution to the fact that they don't have a platform. That like they can't talk to the iOS the same way. Like I think it's going to be, it's going to come with a pitch to also. Yeah. Maybe they'll put out an Android phone, you know, to go with it. Or really, really top tier Android integration, sort of like the Pebble group are trying to do. but I'm skeptical and they've said that it's not going to be a wearable per se it's not going to be a watch, it's not going to be glasses it's not going to be a pin so then people already are imagining it's going to be one of those little personal AC cooler things that goes around your neck or a pendant that maybe is a multi-form factor it can sit on your desk or you can wear it like a necklace I don't know how you solve the platform problem like you've got this device in your pocket that's got a huge freaking battery and a great cellular connection yeah always connected like any smaller thing without a screen isn't going to have those things and maybe it'll have us i i don't know we'll we'll just have to see all right what do you think good i like the pendant idea i think that they've kind of ruled out like everything else it's like well what is it invisible or something like they what other things are there earrings i don't know i agree with you they certainly have i mean if if the platform is voice meaning the ui is if the interface is voice then i think they're i think they're well positioned to make that a compelling as compelling of an interface as anybody else is but i just don't think that that on its own is a compelling device.

1:48:14And so I think there has to be a screen, but, uh, I don't know. I don't know what it's going to be. I like the idea of a little necklace. Maybe you can put it down. Maybe you can cast onto the wall. Like those things are cool. I don't think there's been a cool one yet, but like the idea of like a tiny projector that you can push onto something or maybe the, uh, the old, the old, uh, star Wars helped me Obi-Wan Kenobi kind of moment with the the three little hologram holograms would be rad like something that captures uh our imagination a little bit and just is out there and different i don't think that's johnny ive style but i don't know neither one of us know i just thought i'd hear what you think yeah we'll just we'll just have to see i think you know sam altman showed the hand a little bit and said like we we could imagine you you get hardware periodically as part of your gpt subscription.

1:49:08And so if it's already a hardware subscription business, then maybe whatever connectivity it needs is also rolled into that. And so they've sort of got a, you know, a cellular backbone kind of built into that same subscription model. So it's not like the humane pin where you got to go and get a T-Mobile sidecar for 25 bucks a month just for this device. But there's, there's a lot of real fundamental problems that they have to solve that they wouldn't have to solve if they were able just to get unfettered access the same way the Apple watch does to the phone. so which they won't have and that's they're gonna have to work around that you know amazon kind of did that with a kindle and their whisper net so that's like a very minimal amount of data i almost said whisper net but then i thought there's no way i get to talk to scarlett johansson over the whisper net it's not not in the bandwidth it's gotta be a full-throated conversation okay uh let's do what apple did and say the last six minutes for developers hold on wait i'm skipping i'm skipping you can't skip all of ipad os ipad ipad is finally a you can finally do development on ipad it's got a point of your pointer it's got there's a there's a show title it's got a point it's got a winner it does and so look all right just to say three minutes on ipad os good lord i feel like i was the one who suggested we order things in this order and and now i'm regretting it so like look multitasking because this is your most excited moment and i'm i'm a modal editor guy i use vim i believe in modes you know however stage manager as a mode that you go in is like what mode do i want my ipad to be in do i want to be in single tasking usually works most of the time mode or do i want to be in a stage manager multitasking nothing works pretty much for sure all the time mode okay uh the only time stage manager works better than non-stage manager mode is when you're on an iPad in landscape mode and you need to access an app that only works in portrait orientation because then it'll let you kind of get away with like windowing it into something smaller.

1:51:13But otherwise, the fact that these are different modes has really just been an admission that stage manager sucks. And the new iPad multitasking seems like a ground up rewrite where everything is windowing by default. You can drag from the little vision OS style grabby-do in the corner and start using multiple windows right out of the box and having gestures like expose where you can swipe up once and you can see your desktop and add another app to it. So you're not typing into Spotlight to try to figure out how to add some app that doesn't happen to be at dock into your multitasking interface.

1:51:50And then if you swipe up a second time, everything gets shunted away, right? So then you can get back into single tasking mode without having to do anything fancy. Like this is a, this is a multitasking mode that you could actually explain to a real human in under 10 minutes, which is something that wasn't true before. It lets you actually move the windows around. It has real tiling. It has the, the traffic signals of the, you know, the, the X and the minus and the plus, and they're hidden behind triple dots. I think probably because if you accidentally close something, it's really hard to unclose a thing.

1:52:26So there's a little bit of indirection there. But overall, I'm very excited to muck around with iPadOS. You know, it's got better files app, yada, yada. So there, that's probably three minutes. Let's talk about developers at the end. Okay. Well, I mean, you are going to do development on your iPad is the story, though. So there's a developer story there, right? Sure. And by development, we just mean not Xcode and also nothing that has an on-device compiler. We mostly mean the VS Code web interface or maybe a terminal app that works sometimes. Yeah. But you can imagine the future now. Before, I could not imagine them launching Xcode on iPad.

1:53:12And now I can. The other thing that they put out is the back long running background task. So they launched Final Cut Pro a year or two ago and you couldn't do exports from it unless you kept Final Cut Pro in the foreground. Now it can do that. And it has like a sort of a permanent, you know, little banner notification explaining why your battery is running down so fast. Gotcha. I didn't know that they didn't have background mode. I have not. I haven't followed iPad OS because I haven't owned an iPad for a long time. And so I just don't, I don't care very much. And so I, I know they had final cut for iPad, but I didn't know that you could.

1:53:50I thought you liked continuity. You're robbing yourself of so many continuity opportunities by not wearing the watch or the, you gotta, you gotta go in and get, you don't have vision OS. You gotta get all these platforms, Jared. Think of how much continuity would be in your life. You see, I have kids and so I can only have so much continuity. You know, you've got all the, you know, the spare funds to purchase all the devices. I only have so much. My vision pro is my child. There you go. There's some continuity for you. Developers, six minutes. Developers, developers, developers. Icon composer.

1:54:26Hey, you got to compose these 3D physicality liquid glass icons somehow. That's right. They did a demo of it in State of the Union and it looks legit pretty cool. It basically, you can pull in any SVG and it will automatically get the layering right. And then for each layer in that SVG, you know, by default, because it has to work in clear mode, you'll see those just outlines and you can set how much blur on each level of the layering that you want to kind of give it the sort of sense of, you know, what kind of glass are we talking at each of the levels? They were pretty upfront and said, hey, four layers is about the max.

1:55:07You probably don't want more than that. And then you can apply tint to each of those layers as well. So you can kind of give it your blessed color combo, right? For each of the things like the weather apps got the yellow sun, for example. It looks completely reasonable. Icons have always been something where it feels like, yeah, I'm an iOS developer, but for my icon, I go and hire this other person or icon factory as a business, right? Like it was a totally different function. This I could totally see myself. I can get dangerous in Figma and SVG editors and vector editors. I could totally imagine myself building my own serviceably okay icon using Icon Composer.

1:55:48And not only knowing that it produces a single artifact instead of the striped 45 different outputs that you used to need when you were submitting an app. uh it can also create marketing images like rasterizations that are appropriate for like brand brand books and stuff uh and screenshots for for for the app store so i think it's it's pretty slick um xcode of course also gets like v1 edition of github copilot yeah what it looks like which you know it worked it worked in the demo it's like function level autocomplete? Yeah, I mean, they've got the on-device predictive tab complete, but they also finally got the sidebar now.

1:56:32It's not called Swift Assist, as far as we can tell, because that just never really happened. It's probably not. I didn't see any evidence that it was agentic, but in the State of the Union, they did show that you can pull in your own API keys and use, in addition to ChatGPT, you can use Claude, you can use other models. They're trying to embrace as much as they can and understanding that they're not going to be the solution to every single problem. Personally, as somebody who, you know, wants to be learning Swift, the idea that I would have to do that in an IDE that had no AI assistance whatsoever, you know, when the one thing that it's really good at is teaching you the basics, I was a little bit concerned.

1:57:13so so that that xcode has this as i'm about to start diving in for serious uh can only be a good thing and of course there's tons of stuff for developers that didn't make the keynote and even the state of the union and so they have like more videos coming out all week i always am interested over 100 sessions yeah i'm always interested in what's going on in webkit specifically as a web developer and um they have sessions coming out about that i didn't have the time to watch uh our old friend saran yet barak is at apple now at an apple now working on the safari team and she actually recorded the video for saran is at apple yeah which was i didn't i'm like that looks like saran and i clicked on the video i'm like sure enough there she is recording the video for what's new on webkit and safari whatever whatever like that's cool man everything i've heard heard from saran lately is about her toddler uh i should uh follow up and yeah you should follow of a set of reminders.

1:58:11That's pretty incredible, yeah. The other stuff that's exciting, I mean, a lot of these APIs that they've been on so over the last couple of years seem like they're really maturing. And this liquid design thing has clearly forced them to catch up on SwiftUI. So SwiftUI didn't have a way to do a rich text editor. Now it does. And so you can rich text editing in a SwiftUI way, and it saves as an attributed string, so you can have your Genmojis in there as well. Additionally, SwiftData supports attributed string now too. And so you can just sort of see that they're... Now, like I said, now seems like a really, really good time to start version one of an iOS app.

1:58:55If you've got an existing one and you've already got a lot of like, you know, duct tape and rubber bands holding together, like in bridging all of these gaps that had previously existed, you probably are in for a very busy summer is my guess yeah but but but if you're willing to start as ios 26 is the the first version uh it seems like apple finally is pulling together a lot of this stuff and how many developers are going to come along for the redesign ride and that'll be the question you know well we have the i don't think uncanny valley is the right word but like the middle ground the uh the double a limbo you know mode where you're just like half the apps have updated and look like the new stuff and then other ones haven't and you're like oh they were clear uh that that when you build in the new xcode xcode 26 so xcode also gets to jump this time 10 versions okay uh when you do hit build you're going to get liquid glass and then when you realize that breaks everything you get a check box and you can check to stay on the old you know ui controls but they were clear in the same sentence it was like basically this will be removed in the next major release so you you get one year moratorium on that checkbox so you can keep working on your app and keep shipping it but yeah this is uh this highway only goes in one direction it looks like yeah i also read that the new mac os tahoe which they're and it's still mac os 26 but also tahoe or is it just tahoe it's mac os 26 and they're still naming them for some reason okay so i'll refer to it as tahoe yeah tahoe's fine or 26 i guess if i say 26 it's ambiguous to as to which platform but tahoe will be the last intel supporting operating system that's what i read today it's true and it makes it makes you wonder whether or not uh that means that they're going to have a mac pro for us that looks anything different the 29 mac Mac Pro 2019 Mac Pro redesign is looking along in the tooth.

2:00:58Yeah. Is that still the most recent Mac Pro is 19? No, that's the design was in 19. They've got the most recent one. It has an M two ultra in it, which of course, you know, like you go and buy a Mac studio and you get either an M four max or an M three ultra. Right. The rumor is that like they had a Hydra or a M four extreme kind of Mac pro in the offing that didn't materialize. realize so one hopes that if they're going to kill intel max next year at wwdc they they would do it with the pizzazz of saying hey look this is an extremely expensive computer that can't play pc games even if you really want it to but i'll have the games app so i'll have that going for it yeah you'll have the games app to play uh let's see what do they show uh stand grow ok Thank you.

2:01:46very few games. Yeah. And there was like four or six. Yeah. Yeah. As has always been the case. All right. Let's wrap two hours. We're just, we're killing it, man. We went so fast through the last. Did I exhaust you? You look, you looked, it is, I, we started this at 5 a.m. My time. It's only 7 a.m. Here. I could go all day, man. You're still waking up and I'm going to sleep. So, uh, it's not that time here, but it is just like dinner time pretty much. So yeah, I'm ready to, to go to, to wait on those betas. I think I might install the macOS beta, not early beta, but maybe like late summer, just to get that spotlight action going.

2:02:24Other than that, I'm just going to wait till fall. I think all these OSs come out in the fall, basically, right? Or they should. Yeah. Yep. And if they don't ship by 2026, we've got a problem from a version numbering perspective. Now, they'll all come in September, October. And and honestly, I I'm looking forward to it, but I think it's going to be a long summer of people complaining about contrast issues and readability. And we're all going to be negotiating how frosty do we need our glass? And that'll that'll be exhausting. We'll get we'll be salty about the frosty. There you go. There I go.

2:03:01All right. The if you want the unabridged version of this conversation in which I have been dubbed out and it's just Justin talking to himself. I'm sure he's probably going to stop this recording and start his fresh one as his thoughts are already on topic. Check out Breaking Change. Where else should I point these fine folks? I think Searles.co is where you live, right? Yeah, Searles.co is the master domain. My blog, my website, which I have spent way too much effort for just an individual blog, is Justin.Searles.co. That's right. It's a static site. It's like a Hugo site. You'll be interested to know Jared because we've talked about my posse adventures in the past and stuff.

2:03:43Because I've added an enhancement script now so that whenever I post anything to it, it actually goes and fetches the OG images from all the sites I link to and creates little web cards in a GitHub action and then decorates it back into the site. Oh man. If you're an engineer who's Yes. Vision Pro is my firstborn. This is your... I love talking about the blog because if you're a programmer who on a weekend has ever built a blog or over-engineered the shit out of your blog only to then write exactly one blog post ever, I think that you could find a lot to love in the obsessive care that I've taken over a lot of the stuff in this website that truly does not matter.

2:04:27So if you're interested, check it out, please. Justin.searls.co. So what happens if you just go to searls.co? Oh, it says Augurs of Accidental Applications. Yeah, so that's Searls LLC. Me and my brother, his name's Jeremy. We're co-CJOs of a thriving software enterprise that's just the two of us. Gotcha. Cool. Well, I'll let you get back to your day there in Japan, and I will end my day here in the Midwest. I assume people know where to find you. They've already found me. If they're listening to this right here, right now, they've already found me. They're in the right feed. That's right. Appreciate you.

2:05:10All your time, all your takes, the hot and spicy, and otherwise, anything you'd like to say before I let you go? No, I mean, by the time this comes, our friend of the show, Adam Lizagor, and Sandwich Vision are helping to put on John Gruber's talk show. Hmm. Are they going in Vision OS again? Tonight my time, tomorrow your time. And they're doing the Vision OS thing with theater. And of course, by the time you're hearing this, this will have already aired, so we'll get to know who John's mystery guests are. But yeah, I don't know yet what's going to happen there, but I'm looking forward to it.

2:05:45I think it'll be great. Very cool. All right, that's our show. We'll talk to you all on the next one. See ya. Have you heard? We are doing a live show in Denver, Colorado at the end of July. Saturday, July 26th at the Oriental Theater in Denver to be exact. Join us there for the entire weekend if you want. We'll be meeting up at a local pub Friday night, recording live on stage on Saturday morning, hiking Red Rocks Saturday afternoon, and who knows what else. It's going to be a blast. Get all the details at changelog.com slash live. And join us if you can. Seriously, do it. Seriously, do it, do it.

2:06:25Thanks to our sponsors at fly.io and retool.com. And to Breakmaster Cylinder, we love those sweet, sweet beats. Next week on the pod, news on Monday. Carson Gross, the CEO of HTMX, joins me on Wednesday. And Adam and I analyze all the recent software moves on Friday. Have a great weekend. Tell your friends about our show if you want to help out. and let's talk again real soon.