Selling mountain bikes all over the planet (Friends)

25:12What do you think made you win? What was the initial win or two that really made you think, OK, this is this is legit. Not only is it a good business, but I can actually run this business. I love the people I'm growing up with or adding people on because you can't do it alone. You got a great staff that helps you on the sales and just selling mountain bike stuff is not like sales. It's just passion in a lot of ways. I feel like it, like what you said before, it does kind of sell itself if you're selling it to the right person. Now, if the market has dropped up in terms of customers, it's a different thing.

25:47You had a huge upswell whenever COVID happened, then a big old, you know, let out, so to speak. And I'd love to hear your thoughts on how, not so much how that changed the world. but like really it seems like it's like damaged the mountain bike industry in a way but that's a different let's table that for the moment when it comes to like the first initial few wins like when did you really see the light like okay i can do this this is the future not this is a temporary thing or this is something i'm trying this is i'm actually doing now i'm now i'm this it's it's a good question i i definitely think there's been i think every business goes through phases there's phases of different reasons of why you're like, why you can grow.

26:30And then you kind of tap out that strategy and you have to find a little bit of a new strategy or, or just different methodologies to continue to succeed. You know, in the early days, all I was focused on, you know, I started at age 21, I was just trying to make$60 ,000 a year. That's all I wanted. I was like, I just kind of make$60 ,000 a year. Why that number? Oh, because that was like a, you know, at the time it It was like, if I could make$60 ,000 a year, I could comfortably pay rent and travel little and ride bikes. I don't know. I wasn't really that thought through. It was just like, oh, that's a living wage.

27:04I was making like 30 at the bike shop. If I can make 60, I'm going to be having a great life. I don't know. That's all I thought about, which is so funny how much my brain has evolved and how quickly it evolved just in a few years of starting the business. But that was like the initial focus, which I look back on and still laugh at. But the, you know, going back to what I said about the way that these software products were coming online in the industry and the industry was figuring out API feeds and just data feeds and yada yada. like some of the initial ones were just that literally just that, like just figuring out how to use software tools and build a little tech stack that could then, you know, push a distributor's inventory data feed into your ERP system.

27:51And then you could modify it in a certain way. And then you could advertise and sell that product, like just little weird debt back end technical things like that. That was kind of some of the first thing that put us on the map. and uh that financial model was actually pretty amazing because it didn't really cost much at all in terms of upfront expense it was it was very minimal cost to just sort of build this little tech stack get the products advertised and then you were based on a just-in-time inventory model so you'd sell something for a hundred dollars that you didn't even own then you would take seventy dollars give it to the distributor um then you would ship the thing out and now you've made 20 bucks.

28:27Right. And then just like, just do this over and over again, just really simple, basic, just in time inventory model. That was kind of the first thing, just, just figuring out a little, little strategy like that. And then that only goes so far. Then it becomes like, okay, now we, we need to build a website. And now we need to figure out customer acquisition costs. We need to understand, you know, how sustainable is it to have an eBay brand and Amazon brand versus your own website and have great repeat customers on your own website. So you start to understand, the viability of all these different ways of selling things and the viability of how you acquire customers and retain customers.

29:02And so the second piece was, okay, now we need to figure out how to market really well. And we didn't really put like a crazy amount of tactical effort into that because you kind of can't as a retailer, because as a retailer, you're mostly confined to this about 30 points of gross margin, which is quite small. so you don't really have much room for customer acquisition costs so you have to pretty much do it and in a very very bootstrapped way and and that came down to content marketing and that was you know so i got really interested in and good at seo and like figuring out how to take knowledge out of my head about random things whether that was how to set up clipless cleats on your on your pedals how to tune your suspension random stuff like that and writing it out into articles and And then we started making YouTube videos and we started just talking to the camera and rambling off random things that we thought, you know, most of the original ideas for the YouTube videos were we're fielding all these customer questions.

30:01And there's a lot of this complicated compatibility stuff in the bike industry. It's like, does this fit this? Does that fit that? What would happen if I put this fork on this bike? Random stuff like that. So then we would just make questions or we'd make YouTube videos based off of those questions to just educate people. And there was still a huge gap in the marketplace on YouTube for that. Like there just wasn't those videos. So we just started making educational mountain bike videos about upgrading your bike compatibility, things, tips and tricks, random stuff like that. And that was largely free in a sense.

30:32Right. It was just me talking to a camera. We do some super basic editing and talking on YouTube and people really liked it. And that had a lot of side effects that I never knew were going to happen because not only were we then educating mountain bikers and getting views and getting sort of brand awareness, but then people were going, hey, I actually like these guys. Like these guys seem cool and genuine and they helped me. And people sort of are naturally have some level of reciprocation in them. And they're like, because these guys helped me, I want to buy at this retailer. And we saw that happening.

31:02Oh, like this is actually building us fans, not just customers. it's people that actually genuinely appreciate that we wrote and and or filmed useful educational mountain bike content that was helpful for them and then now they like us and want to shop with us instead of our competitors selling the exact same product at the exact same price so it you know you start just learning these things like oh wow that actually worked quite well let's just double down on that and make more useful videos and um let's make more useful content and so that was the next sort of big lever that helped really put worldwide cyclery on the map that made people realize who we were and just want to shop with us.

31:43That was a big one, right? And of course, there's like the thousand other small things that, you know, people love to gloss over. But if any business is successful, there's a thousand other things behind the scenes that you have to do to win, right? It was like, maybe the big overarching obvious strategy I can tell you was, yeah, we got quite sophisticated at content marketing and built an audience and that made people want to buy with us. But realistically, we still needed to have a good website. We still needed to fulfill those orders on time. We still needed to have really timely responses to our phone calls and emails to help people out, to solve warranty issues, to just do the basic stuff that customers had a great customer experience with when they shopped with us.

32:23And that was a strategic advantage because a lot of these incumbents, they were terrible at answering emails or phone calls or just their customer experience was terrible. They were very transactional in an industry that shouldn't be transactional. This is a passion driven industry. You should be able to call and talk to someone who actually rides bikes and they can tell you their experience with this product and if it's compatible or not. And if they like it, you shouldn't be getting some boilerplate, weird, useless answer. And like they just people started realizing a lot of these incumbents were almost like fulfillment houses.

32:54It's like I could just buy something here, but it's like that's it it ends there like they don't know anything about the product they're not helping to make a decision totally yeah gaining affinity like i wouldn't uh we've we've had some email exchange since 2022 we've been trying to get you on this podcast for a bit and it's not your fault it's my fault too that's how things work out but i think i share with you because i was excited i want to concur on a lot of things you just said there because is I think I watched Liam build several bikes. I think they were your bikes. Now that I think about it, they were Revel bikes.

33:30And I think I learned how to do certain things. I'm not a bike mechanic, but I can build a bike from scratch today. And the reason why is because I think a large part of that is because of the passion that you talk about that came through you personally yourself and those you've brought into your team. But like that YouTube channel for me was pivotal in my mountain bike journey, just because I, you know, I, I personally got more into the sports when I realized and learned how to take care of my own bike. Yeah. It was just really daunting to think. Yeah. Like having that agency over my ability to, to one, control the component and then true to just control my what's the right word to say like my trust in it because i tightened the bolt to the right meter for example you know or i know i chose the titanium bolt over something else for example you know you did it right and your bike's not going to fall apart under you and it'll be your fault or i know their new brake pads are just like you know i can go down this mountain with more confidence because I, I built and chose the components.

34:43Yeah. And that began with, um, I think the fidelity that you allowed through your YouTube channel, not just the ones which was like, what's cool about SRAM or what's cool about this or why you choose SRAM over Shimano or, you know, these little tastes, like I wish you'd let out more of that. Cause like, I like, I would personally just like just consume all of your content to get whatever you would share like whatever nugget would share and it was never enough and it wasn't even your fault like but I literally watched Liam build multiple bikes for you particularly uh learning how to build how to like put a star nut into a stem you know for example or even how to like cut a stem and not get it wrong and get pissed off because you've spent 1200 bucks on a new fox uh you know fork and you've cut the stem too short it's like that's just that's just don't do that that's the worst ever and i would wait weeks to like make that cut you know i would procrastinate even like good in the bike because i'm like uh it's it's such an expensive such an expensive cut to do wrong you know and then what's the right tool even you know so there's so much mystery in that world that I feel like you unlocked and enabled.

36:01And so I would just literally like every video you dropped, I would be first watcher, always watching. And I loved your usage of the surveys. I think you got, I would love to know your data behind the scenes, like how much of this like is truly beneficial to the business. Cause you ask a lot of really good questions that me as an enthusiast, I want to answer and I want to give you the, cause I want to, I want to share my response, but as a collector of data, I imagine helps you do very valuable things for the industry selfishly, but also naturally, but I'm just curious about that too. But anyways, I loved your, your YouTube channel.

36:41Like to me, it was a treasure trove of, of goodness. Uh, it was where I found my community when I didn't have community. It taught me a lot about taste and, uh, you know, how you choose tires or how you pair tires together. Like these are things that doesn't ever knew, you know, and I got excited about like bike tech cause I'm a technologist and I love technology generally. Just like I love data and specs and the whys and the hows and stuff like that. And so your channel really enabled me to, to dig deeper. And then when it became time to order anything, it was obvious, you know, every time you sent me something, you always gave me a code to get 10 % off of or 15 % off of next time.

37:20So you, yeah. One of those little strategies for repeat business. Yeah. I mean like, but it wasn't like, I would say, and maybe this will be helpful, helpful to you in your own ego. I would probably say more than anything is that it never felt like you were trying to sell me. You know, it always felt like you're trying to serve me, which is a whole different thing when it comes to, I think Jensen versus World Bar Cyclery. Like what you built and what they built is dramatically different in terms of like how I buy or why I even care to buy from you versus them, because I know why you're in the game.

37:55And so a little bit of a gush session there, but really just appreciated the YouTube channel. And I think I want to let you respond to that. But then, too, I got a follow up on that. So I'll just let you respond to some of my gushing, if you don't mind. Yeah, well, well, thank you. I mean, I appreciate that. And it makes me happy to know that people like you enjoy the videos, learn from the videos and just got more into the sport because of it. I actually really like the way you said that and doesn't feel like we're selling. It feels like we're trying to serve because it's that's that's a great way to say it.

38:26I've never, never thought of it that way. But that's certainly what we've all like. That's basically what we've always tried to do. One of the core values of the company is we try to impress ourselves and impress our customers. And the theory behind that is, you know, we're trying to operate a really good business. And part of that in our industry is to never be derogatory, which is very common in the industry. The industry is kind of notorious for being very clicky and for it being really hard for new people to come into the sport. Whether that's just casual mountain biking, serious mountain biking, road cycling, whatever.

39:02You know, a lot of people have this experience where they walk into a local shop and they feel very belittled by the staff and talked down to like these. These are so common for people to for you to hear these stories like, yeah, that guy was just a total douche, like acted like he was a snob nose and I didn't know anything and I didn't know anything. And that's why I was there. Like, help me. You know, and there's a lot of that snobbery in the bike industry, which which is really unfortunate because it's what keeps new people. from getting into the sport and liking the sport and sticking with the sport of any type of category of cycling.

39:38So yeah, we, we've always talked about that and always tried to be the place where, you know, cause there's the whole other thing too, with bike shops is, you know, they carry a few brands that they sell that are bike brands. And if you were to have bought a bike from another shop or direct or a consumer direct only brand, and you walked into that shop to get it worked on, they're going to be all snob nosy about the fact that you didn't buy the bike there um it's like that's ridiculous like there you got a customer coming in that just wants to spend money and like have the like it's just crazy right there's a lot of lack of business sense and and too much uppity you know clickiness in the industry and and we've always tried to fight against that and and not behave that way um so yeah i i hope we're always maintain that but it's It is tricky because it is a complicated industry.

40:29So it's easy to get into the sport and then feel overwhelmed and go, man, it's just like this is too confusing to figure out what bike to even buy, how and where to use it, how to upgrade it. Yeah, it's just a complicated product. But if you like the stuff and you like learning about it, then it's a very fun industry because there's a lot to learn and know about the bikes themselves. Yeah, I feel like you all did a great job of taste. So you seem like curators. taste makers um so it made me trust your opinion more because i knew you had a reason why you chose a certain direction it wasn't because this was bad and this was good it was just more like you know what i kind of like the way that shram brakes stop you know with a a progressive state versus like a immediate stop which i think is one thing i particularly said over the years and it helped me choose shram over shimano when it comes to my brakes and to this day why shram is my braking system you know and not yeah i would never try others but like i trust it more because of you know some of that back and forth i've also had many pairs of brakes on my bikes over over the years and so i've bled enough brakes to like really hate doing it and i procrastinate bleeding brakes every time i have to do it it's not fun it's not it's not hard either but it's just like one of those things where like you know yeah it's tedious yeah it's kind of tedious it's very tedious but you know i use shram brakes uh for those reasons and i tried them though so i bought them tried them and agreed with what you agree with and so it wasn't like oh jeff said x so adam does y and therefore you know happiness ensues and you know no crashes yeah yeah i've it's cool to hear because because i've always tried to communicate that there's not always just a black or white, right or wrong.

42:18Like there's a lot of personal preference. Some people like the feel of, you know, Shimano brakes for that exact reason you don't. Um, and that's okay. Let's all admit that, you know, and that's, I don't know that a lot of people are not willing to admit that if, if they like what they like, they think that's right. And it's like, no, that's not how the world works. And you can communicate that better and explain that some people like this for this reason. And some people like that for that reason. So I don't know, part of that's just, I think being able to communicate that stuff well. And, and as a retailer, you're kind of uniquely positioned to do that because if, you know, one of the brands themselves makes that content, they obviously have to be obscenely biased towards their product.

42:58But as a retailer selling multiple ones, you can sort of better educate people on the difference that like the intricate differences between them and, and explain that. Yeah. It's just personal preference in a lot of ways and explain why they're different. And then people can think about their own preferences and try accordingly like you did with break so that's cool here so content market was obviously the big push for you do you think that was the unlocker when you saw the worldwide of your brand truly become you know i guess you were worldwide initially but this youtube model where you can reach and touch so many people and i think now even i'm going to scroll back up i think not the subscriber counts matter but you have almost half a million subscribers almost 540 videos jeff this is on what about cyclery alone not even kettles uh channel or trail one's channel which i know you have separate channels for each of those um did you see a dramatic difference whenever you started to create content like even from not so much say get customer make money standpoint but like people enjoy working here more Like morale, was it more fun?

44:07Did you grow your network as a result? Like what were the amplifications and benefits of just like diving further into YouTube? Yeah, that's a fantastic question because it's a good point in that. Yeah, a lot of those. Yes. Big, big changes there. And like I kind of alluded to earlier, the YouTube videos were initially just, hey, this could be a great way to build brand awareness. And we have a lot of knowledge about bikes and all these components and our industry. Let's share that on YouTube and let's share answers to the questions that we're getting all day. So we did that. And then we started realizing, oh, people really appreciate this and they reciprocate.

44:49And then they're becoming fans and they're getting more into the sport because of what we're doing. So, yeah, that was really fun. And it did internally change the culture, too, because the brand was a lot more defined. sort of, you know, why we exist and the services we provide, whether that's good content marketing, educational YouTube content that also makes people laugh at the same time and operating a good business and supporting people having fun on bikes. All that stuff became much more clear. You know, it's like you can sort of write, you know, this is why we exist. This is our mission, vision, values.

45:23You can write all that crap down. But unless it's very viscerally clear to the staff who works there and the customers who shop there, it doesn't really mean anything, right? And for us, YouTube made it clear. It made it very tangible. Like, oh yeah, this is very clear. This is exactly how we support people having fun on bikes. This is how we educate the mountain bike community on the knowledge that we have of all the stuff we sell. This is how we curate the products. It became very visible as the YouTube channel grew and as the business grew. and it was very visible to us and our team internally as well as externally.

45:59So, yeah, I think that's a cool piece because a lot of businesses can, you know, you can have a big business, but it's still very behind closed doors, how they acquire customers, how they treat their customers, how they treat their employees. But a retail business like ours, especially with a lot of content marketing and YouTube, it became very clear, you know, in any way you look at it, who we are, what we're all about, what we do, how we do it. it's very just obvious and out there in the open. So yeah, I like that aspect because it definitely changed a lot of things in our business that, that made it a lot more real and tangible and, and just transparent to every, anyone and everyone, whether they're inside or outside.

46:40Did you have any, anyone inside, like, I want to be on the channel now, or I want to, or did you have this clawing, so to speak of, of people wanting to be on camera and wanting to be involved in the process or was it sort of, you know, standoffish? Like what, how was the reception to the rest of the staff and folks you have involved? Yeah. It's, it's funny you ask. Um, most people don't claw to be on camera. It's kind of the opposite. Uh, uh, in, in the early days, we were, were some of the very first videos we ever did were these very, uh, super basic what's in the box. If you, if you bought a fork, you might wonder, does it come with the axle?

47:23Does it come with the star nut? Does it come with a shock? Right. Just like in some brands included some of those, some brands didn't, whatever, like super basic, Hey, here's what's in the box, just really basic videos. And I thought those would be really helpful to do on some of our top selling products, because if you know, you're about to spend$900 ,000 on a product and there's no video anywhere that just tells you what the heck is in the box. So I was like, let's just make these really basic ones. Um, so I did one and I was like, okay, so here, here's sort of the template for it. And I'd have a couple of the guys try it.

47:51And a lot of people didn't enjoy and don't enjoy having a camera pointed at them and trying to be clear and concise and articulate. And some people just struggle with that and don't really like it. And YouTube, you know, as, as much as it's a welcoming place, like you, it doesn't really work unless you're kind of good at speaking in a sense. Um, you have to be clear and concise and articulate and charismatic and, uh, and know what you're talking about. And that has to be apparent. And, um, it really, like people can feel if you're uncomfortable or inauthentic, or they'll just bounce to some other distraction.

48:30If you're slow, um, it's just a hard place to hold people's attention, even if they're looking to know exactly what you're trying to tell them. So it's tricky. It's harder to be clear and concise on camera than I think some people think. And, you know, if they try and they get that heart rush of adrenaline and they're like, yeah, no, this sucks. So no, it's actually kind of the opposite. Most people were like, yeah, yeah, go ahead, Jeff. We don't, no one here wants to be on camera. You do it. Yeah. I mean, it's your company, man. Do the job. Yeah. And I mean, I had no intentions of really doing that to begin with, to be honest.

49:03I just thought, you know we just started you had to yeah i just had to right i was i was the guy who you know could just do it quickly and concisely and because the other thing too is like an efficiency thing so if you take you know 10 takes you just waste you're just wasting so much time whereas if you could just say it right the first time it's over you're done the video's good so yeah it just kind of depended on and you know who was good at that stuff and you probably see on our channel now jared and liam are on there a ton and um you know jared has come both those guys have but jared especially because he's mostly on the youtube channel talking now he's come so far over the years at just getting way better at just being comfortable and fun and natural and explaining things on camera than than he was in the early days um so you know it just takes time to get good at youtube and being on camera and stuff like that it does take time uh so jared remind me is he the fellow with the mustache no he often has a mustache yeah and then the long long brown hair yeah sometimes a flavor savor sometimes a mustache yeah always crazy you never know yeah some some hat that uh yeah okay i know jared then i know liam more than i think i know knew jared i knew his face but i didn't know his name yeah and mainly liam because he seems the one who's the in-house mechanic like he can build anything basically he knows all the specs to the newton meter before it's even released he knows it all totally yeah he's a way into process he's he seems like a pro at being a mechanic.

50:30So I totally is. I always appreciate his videos on that. And I was trying to despise. I was like, we're trying to find out how to build a mountain bike and what tools to use is like the weirdest puzzle in the world to ever solve. It really is. Like you would think park tool would do a better job and they do do a good job, but it's kind of some of their content is like so general bike that it's not doubt into mountain bike. Yeah. You know, which is way different, you know, So sure you have a head too, but it's just got different things. You get different specifications, geometry, et cetera, that comes into play.

51:05And just trying to find out how to build things. I mean, I don't even know where you would go to school to learn how to build a mountain bike or become a mechanic. I don't even know if that even exists. I'm sure there's certifications out there, but I was just trying to be an enthusiast. I wasn't trying to be a pro. Yeah. But I did want to do pro-like things and use the pro-like tools because I wanted to do it right. i've i've uh i've done things the wrong way let's just say with the wrong tools you know and everyone either broke or it didn't work right yeah i had to buy the thing twice it was a mess okay so no one clawing at the camera you have to because you're a founder and you got to do it and i would say you know you got a natural knack for it i would say yeah my favorite not bad at it right Like good, good enough that I can hold someone's attention and explain things and not have to take five takes.

51:57And that's all you need to start. I think so. I think more so than anything, like it's it's clear you got experience and it's clear you care. And I think those are the two kind of core ingredients that you have to have to do that job for your company well enough, because it's not just showmanship or showpersonship. personship it's it's literally being able to explain how things work and why you have particular you know why you prefer you know maxis tires over continental maybe you don't maybe you do who knows or why you prefer this combination which i think is the most unique conversation with a mountain bagger like what what tire combo that'll put you in a click right off the bat i'm sure you are still rocking your your dhf for life or something like that right like was it dhr2 on the front for you oh it depends on the bike these days i'm on uh recon dissector is your is your pair yeah well actually now the new forecaster so okay the bike i ride the most often now the trail bike which is a yeti asr at the moment uh yeah maxis forecaster in the front and maxis recon in the back yeti asr what is the yeti asr it's their new uh it's it's really like a world cup level cross-country race bike but with really aggressive geometry and a little bit more travel so it's just this incredibly capable super lightweight fast all-around bike that i've just kind of fallen in love with since they introduced it it's super fun to ride um yeah because it's it feels as fast and light and as efficient as a full-blown xc race bike but when you're on it your body position and the way that the geometry is and the way it corners and stuff it feels much more like an enduro bike um so it's just a cool blend of the two that's really fun to ride and you also have this history too which i think is because just like that you juxtapose the asr to enduro but you also said cross country which for those who don't really mountain bike and you're just listening in because this is the podcast those are very different yeah like very different cross country and enduro is like dramatically different similar in the fact they're both mountain biking but dramatically different in you know the downness that you go on purpose and the pedaling up so to speak and i know a lot of cross country does pedal up too but i guess it depends on how hardcore cross country you're going really it depends but the majority of it is pretty pleasant uh now if you're world cup level maybe it's not so pleasant uh i don't know i'm downplaying cross country but it's it's it's not as hard or it's just different than enduro really yeah totally it's a little bit more like distance running on the track versus trail running you know yeah still running but different terrain and different mentality different flavors there yeah so uh we're in the weeds a measure but why yeti over the latest revel thing well the revel doesn't quite have a bike that would be similar so they have something close which i which i do really like and rode for a long time which is their ranger and uh the ranger is is similar in a sense but it's it's still a bit more on the trail bike side in terms of it being heavier the ranger actually has just a better suspension platform it pedals better it descends better but it's like almost two pounds heavier um so it's so it's a bit of a different bike it's it's just it's just more you know you look at all these things you end up splitting hairs in in a big way but you you have you have bikes that go all the way from you know cross country, pushing a little into trail, a little trail bike, pushing into a duro and duro pushing a downhill.

55:37It's more travel, more, you know, sort of slack and long geometry. Um, so they just, they just all change. Right. Um, and it just, I just go back and forth between what I'm riding more often and what I like to ride. And recently I've been more into adventure racing and that has a lot more cross country esque style riding in that sport and weight is really important. So, um that's why i lean towards that asr and have really enjoyed it and i hope revel comes out with a similar bike but um revel is definitely more of a trail and enduro company through and through and and has never made a full-fledged xc race bike um maybe they will i hope they do at some point because um yeah i love revel and love supporting that brand and i'm actually um i think i'm queuing up i'm torn between either building up one of their new rascals which is that trail bike or or that new, uh, enduro bike they have.

56:29So, yeah, I mean, but I'm always changing bikes. So if you ask me in three months from now, I probably won't have that same bike. Yeah. Don't, uh, don't necessarily follow your lead because you probably have 20 bikes or more of your lifetime. I always, I'm always changing them and I always have, you know, like I have a Banshee Titan as well as an enduro bike right now. so i have the banshee i have the yeti asr i have a revel el jefe which is a titanium hardtail um so i kind of always have at least three bikes that i'm riding it for different reasons at different times um and then i'm always like changing those three but that's what you're supposed to do man when you when you're a bike shop and you love bikes you're just trying all the new stuff and yeah you just go through phases you're like you go through six months where you just love riding xc bikes and then you're like i'm over that you just want to ride duro bikes all day and you do that for three months and then you you're like i'm in bike packing now i want to do big bike packing adventures like you just get bored and try different stuff that's part of the for sure all right one more thing on youtube and then i want to take a turn towards trail one and kettle yeah expansion the empire you know the down the downfall of the industry the craziness with revel because we have some similar ties there and just where things are going but i do want to I ask you like, you know, given the fixed gross margin in retail, and you're in retail in all sectors, right?

57:54So you're apparel, but you're selling. So you got direct to consumer, even with Kettle. You got Trail One, you're creating, not just selling. So you're literally manufacturing. You found out how to do that. And then you're selling those products and you're giving back to trails and communities. And I think Brian, all I know him is BX. BKXC, I believe. Yeah, but his name's Brian. You know, Brian, he's a friend of yours. you got him involved which i think is super cool because he's like diehard biker forever uh and i think there's even like this youtube youtuber biker youtuber kind of like trend that was there and then it's sort of like you know came and gone with covid kind of thing yeah um but if content marketing is so strong for you i think your latest for trail one was like a year ago video wise and i don't see you putting out a ton of content for worldwide either like what is the what is the bottleneck like where is the throttle i suppose for you in this industry with how crazy it is and y 'all making more content and growing like is there room for growth is it like where is that space at considering how strong this is for you on marketing and capturing because that's the whole reason we're talking is because i found your youtube channel at one point and got more into your brand and who you are personally.

59:15And I just don't see you posting as frequently, given how important it seems to be for you. Yeah. So I can definitely explain that. Um, you know, in a perfect world, uh, if, you know, I was a trust fund kid, we would just make all sorts of fun videos all day. Unfortunately not. Unfortunately not. Come on. I wish, but so, So the way it's evolved is, you know, as I sort of mentioned earlier, that the bike industry has gone through some crazy, tumultuous boom and bust cycle with COVID. And even pre-COVID, we'd recognized the industry was just evolving. The sort of heyday of the online retailer was coming to an end because all of these brands were starting to sell consumer direct and they were starting to get good at it.

1:00:02And that's sort of a it's just an annoyance to a retailer because, you know, worldwide cyclery fundamentally is meant to take, you know, we have we have a couple hundred different brands that we intentionally curated the best brands in the mountain bike industry and the best products in the industry and got them all in one place. and you can shop them all in one area. That is still a relevant value proposition and very convenient when you want to buy a new Fox fork and a Maxxis tire and a pair of Shimano brake pads all at the same time in one place. And it was even more necessary and useful when you couldn't really buy those from anywhere else other than other retailers.

1:00:41But now that you can buy directly from Fox or directly from Shimano or directly from Maxxis, it just changes things because now you're competing directly with the brand selling direct. And if people don't necessarily need to buy two or three things at once from different brands, they just want to upgrade or just want to buy one thing. They just go to the brand directly. You're never going to outcompete that brand when it comes to SEO. If someone's searching for just that brand, obviously just that brand is going to show up at the top always. And if people end up there and they can just easily buy from there, they just do.

1:01:11So the industry just really changed, right? All of the brands in the industry, if you look at it pre-COVID, probably 10 % of them sold consumer direct. And the other 90 % just didn't. And they just sold through retailers. And that's how the industry worked. That's all changed. And now it's literally flopped. And about 90 % of the brands in the industry sell consumer direct. They still, of course, have retailers, but they're competing directly with them in the sense of when you go to buy them, when a customer goes to buy a product. So the industry is just totally evolved. And we saw that happening.

1:01:41And it's just the nature of the beast. It's a bummer. Like, you know, nobody's happy when they're, you know, original and good, healthy, fun business model starts deteriorating. Like that sucks. But welcome to business. Things evolve. Things change. The classified ads in the newspaper got demolished by Craigslist, which then got demolished by the Internet. You know, it's like it's shit just changes. So Worldwide Cyclery's business model is just it's not dead. It's not obsolete. It's just not nearly as viable. and it's not living in the heyday that it once was in that sort of 2010 to 2022 era. And because of that, you know, because of seeing that we we wanted to do we wanted to really get into basically owning our own brands more vertically so we could kind of control everything.

1:02:29And and Kettle Kettle Mountain Apparel was a huge one for us that we really saw a lot of potential and wanted to grow and scale and put effort into. And that catalog now, you know, we've got 40 different styles of all sorts of stuff for outdoor and travel adventure wear. And we design it ourselves, we manufacture it, we market it, we sell it, we fulfill it, we do the whole thing very vertically. And it's our brand outright. And that brand has grown substantially. And that's, and it's really the, you know, if you were to look at all three of our brands, that, that brand has the most, you know, longevity and sustainability in its, in its business model.

1:03:08And so a lot of our focus has gone there, mine specifically, and kind of the key leaders in the business have really focused there. It's new, it's exciting, it's fun, it has longevity and sustainability to it. And we have so much more control over it because we're not a retailer, we're just actually the manufacturer of everything and the retailer, it's all more vertical. So a lot of our efforts gone towards Kettle. And the way we've grown Kettle thus far hasn't been the same strategies. It's been a bit more paid marketing, because that's a more viable customer acquisition strategy than the content marketing side of things.

1:03:42And, you know, every industry, every product, like there's just different levers and different things you can do to help grow revenue. And for Kettle, that's not necessarily been content marketing just yet. A little bit, we're dabbling in it, but it's been more so, you know, making a really good product and then making really good digital ads and making sure we're there in front of the right people at the right time that are looking for, you know, menswear of that sort. So we put a lot of effort into that. And we have pulled back effort on the Worldwide Cyclery content marketing side because the business model just kind of sucks now, if I'm being honest.

1:04:18Not only is Worldwide Cyclery competing directly with all the brands it sells now when it didn't pre-COVID, but the industry's had that boom and bust cycle and the bust cycle has dragged on for what feels like two and a half years now and it's still in it. The industry totally over-inventoried itself and that's caused a huge amount of discounting and margin deterioration. All these things just really added up and on the tech side, simultaneously what's really been a huge issue for everyone who was in the e-commerce space, especially the ones that did content marketing is you don't get organic traffic from Google anymore.

1:04:55Like it's just basically pay to play. Like you type in a Google query for a product and 95 % of the page is paid pay-per-click ads everywhere. And the organic stuff is so far smashed down below the AI overview and the paid shopping results with images and the paid click text ads. So your organic traffic, like if you just look at the structure of a Google search engine results page pre-COVID, versus now it's dramatic how different it is like people just used to get a lot more traffic from google for free organically and those days are just gone google has just kicked everyone in the nuts and that's just totally smashed e-commerce businesses that were fairly dependent on content marketing and forced them to pay to play and if you're forced to pay to play in an industry that has terrible margins and now you're competing in the ad auction against the freaking same brand you're selling, selling it direct.

1:05:50It's just, just sucks. So it's like, we, we have to, you know, we have to be acknowledged that and, and pivot accordingly. And, you know, worldwide cycle, you're still a good, healthy business and it's fine, but you know, it's, it's the heyday's over. Right. So we, we, we've moved on a little bit from it and said like, you know, we're not going to neglect it. It's still a great, awesome business. There's still a value prop to having the curation of all the stuff there. So we've, you know, now we've just toned down the level of content. We put out about one video a month. Now we put out a couple podcasts a month and that's it articles here and there.

1:06:25It's definitely way less content than we used to. Um, it makes me sad. Yeah, I know. Well, you know, if you want to call 200 brands in the industry and rejigger the entire structure of the industry, I'd love for it to go back to the way it was, but yeah, unfortunately the times have changed.

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1:08:46do you see a direct line of like make video about x for worldwide in particular sales happen do you see do effect happens you know do you see that cause and effect yeah we not as much anymore um we used to right um and and that's i think we will again once the sort of bust cycle of the industry's over. So a lot of what happened when I say the bust cycle, right? So there was the boom and bust. What happened during the boom is not people overindulged in the sport. And then they pulled back how often they participated in the sport. And while they were participating a lot and sort of overindulged in the sport, they bought a lot more stuff.

1:09:29They got really into it. You know, they had to cancel their Disney world trip to Paris because of COVID. And they instead just did a regional trip and went to Moab and rode mountain bikes with their family, right? So people really overindulged in the sport, which was great for the time being. But then it's rained back. Gyms opened up, soccer fields, baseball fields, football fields, everything just kind of went back to normal post-COVID and people stopped riding bikes as often. And they had bought a lot. And the industry then overproduced a lot, which then caused a huge amount of discounting across the board.

1:09:59And people also just had, you know, they're buying good hard goods that last a long time. So they're not like the consumption of anything and everything in the bike industry, whether that's even consumables, like tires, grips, chains, pedals, stuff like that, like even that's tapered off because the participation slowed down. And because a lot of people literally bought extra grips or extra tires, because there was like these weird times where there was no inventory during COVID because the supply chain disruption. So So there's still this bus cycle going on. So there's so much less demand and consumption across all categories in the industry happening right now that it's not as easy to just make video about X and sell X.

1:10:43Whereas pre-COVID, it was, you know, like things were normal and steady and chugging along and you could introduce people to new products they hadn't heard about or an upgrade that they hadn't had. And they're like, wow, that actually looks like it would be sweet. I'm just going to buy that right now. Um, so it was way more clear, um, you know, pre COVID and then during COVID was, was just nuts, right? Like you, you could, you could sell anything. Um, uh, it was crazy. The industry was nuts, right? It was, it was so funny. It was a wild time. It was a wild time to be on the opposite side of that, Jeff, you know, you guys were hammering out videos and enjoying life and clinking your champagne glasses.

1:11:22Here's me trying to get my tires just to go and, you know, just ride. yeah what was i'm curious what was your experience do you feel like you overindulged during covid like your amount of riding and mountain bike content consumption and mountain bike related purchases in 2020 2021 were those like higher than you've ever had in your life oh yeah the yeah the pinnacle of the number i would i would ever spend too what i mean uh was in those years Yeah. It's natural, I suppose. It's such a weird phenomenon to be, because I discovered mountain biking before that, but discovered my passion for it around 2019.

1:12:05So the year before things blew up, I got back into the sport more so that I, I had early 2019, I bought a, um, a specialized, uh, I should know this off the top of my head, a stump jumper. like the most you know what they're most known for i bought a 2019 stump jumper it was like two grand which i thought oh my gosh i would never spend two grand on a bike now i'm like dude i got this bike for two grand okay like this was a deal yeah i know you know what i mean because i've seen some bikes you've built yeah um you know i i got this bike and i was like i enjoyed it and then for whatever crazy reason i took it apart everything was off of it like it wasn't even a i couldn't even ride it anymore it was a it was a board man yeah i replaced the rear shock i replaced the the fork i mean i reran brake lines which was super painful in that kind of uh frame i had to get a fishing thing from park tool which was amazing the first time i did it i don't even know how i did it i didn't have the right tool and then park tool thankfully has you know i I don't know what you call it, but internal cable routing kit.

1:13:17There you go. You probably know off the top of your head because you speak their lingo. Internal cable routing kit. There you go, Jeff. Good job. Showing off your true colors here. And so I did all that. I was, it was, it was really wild, but I discovered the sport, I would say before COVID, but was falling in love with it. And at the time when everybody else was about to. and so my timing fall in love with the sport was just poor timing comparative it wasn't because of covid but i think i leaned in even more because like obviously i'm into it so might as well go even further and i live here in texas near austin and we have um a city called burn it here that has spider mountain yeah spider mountains the if it weren't for spider mountain i think mountain but it can be very boring here in texas like it's it's good we've got lots of cool trails but nowhere near california's trails or nowhere near colorado's trails like just compared to we don't have mountains here we got the hills okay little country as they call it and i live in the hill country and it is amazing and you know spider mountain tldr for everybody who doesn't know is a lift serve i think about 500 feet of descent total so it's like lift serve which means you get onto a lift like a ski you put your bike on this hook and it goes up with you and then you come down with gravity no pedaling required total fun it's amazing but you know that was my experience was i got into the sport when everybody else was starting to it wasn't because of covid but it was also because of covid like it was it was just a just timing that's how it worked out yeah and i you know probably like anybody else i wanted what i wanted and i wanted it now and uh you know and it was never now was never fast enough and i remember everything being out of stock everything everything was out of stock it was insane i don't even know how you guys kept it going with like how chaotic it must have been during that time it was chaotic man it was it was for everyone right Because you had the bike industry had that participation just went through the roof.

1:15:27Interest in the sport, purchases in the sport just went through the roof. At the same exact time, the supply chain just shut down. And most of the products in the industry are made in Asia. So all of a sudden, you sold all your product with this insatiable demand, and then you couldn't get any more of it. So then that led to this massive inventory outage for a long time. And then when the inventory came back, people overbought. They're like, well, I'm not going to, I don't need three sets of brake pads, but I'm going to buy them anyway because I don't want to, they might be out next time. I'm pretty sure I have a pair or two of extras.

1:16:00Yeah. That has a really, really hardcore long-term side effect with this boom and bust cycle and the finances of the whole industry. That's still wangering. I think I have two chains, Jeff. In case I break my chain, I got two more chains. Yeah. I think even as we speak. Everybody did that. I'm good on chains for, you know, the foreseeable future. Exactly. Yeah. So it's still lingering. Isn't that crazy? So yeah, I mean, that caused some serious issues for the industry. And it was very hard to navigate. And a lot of the brands, as you've seen, went through just, you know, a cash flow crunch. They ended up ordering more inventory than they needed because they thought the demand was there.

1:16:40And then all of a sudden, when the demand slowly tapered off, they had all this inventory they couldn't sell. And then they needed cash and they didn't have cash because they had too much inventory. And then bam, bankrupt, just like that. Like it's businesses can be very fragile and in like a volatile economy like that, which is a lot of them is why a lot of them go bankrupt and a lot of businesses fail. So it's tough, tough times. And yeah, speaking of Revel, Revel, you know, went through that craziness, too, in a way. It was like they I think you just started to promote them around 2019. And maybe it was 2020.

1:17:11It was the year of COVID, I believe. Yeah. I like, I really, so I guess more on your content side, I really appreciated your trip to the HQ. I love that behind the scenes stuff. I love your, your perspective on boutique brands in the industry of bike in particular is unique, but it turned me on to this whole new aspect of like boutique brands in almost every industry I care about from computers to biking to you name it, you know, your, your personal passion towards the boutiqueness. of revel it competes with yeti yeti is a really well-known name brand comparative i would say and i mean you probably have a different perspective on comparativeness to it but carbon frames you know amazing suspension uh i think you call them super bikes they're both super bikes but they're built by very different companies one is a big box kind of retailer kind of thing that wins world cups and revel is fairly new and but has similar roots but it's got that boutique nature to it.

1:18:11I loved your perspective on boutique bike brands and building things around those things. Um, what was I trying to tell you though? I like that. I like, I like your boutique bike brand kind of aspect when Rebel first launched, but the, going to the, going to their HQ and seeing Adam and behind the scenes and like, like no one was doing that kind of stuff. and like someone who cares about what they buy and why they buy it likes that kind of video i don't know what it cost you to produce it but it was worth its weight in my goal because like it helped me fall in love with revel fall over that and fall over the team there fall in love with the reasons why they showed up to do what they do to maybe even care about revel in the first place so it's like it's this really weird you know phenomenon that happened but uh revel launched right at the same time as as uh as the downturn of like covid and i think i got my bike oh jeff i think i bought it um i bought the frame only i called the silver bullets the t1000 yeah revel one uh sorry the the rascal one um and i bought the frame only and i think i got it in like december november 2019 and i built it during covid nice so i like i didn't even build it right i like i bought it took my time with it bought components took my time with it and then it just took me a while to like really settle on everything i wanted to build with it and uh that's how it worked out for for that particular building that bike there but i bought as a frame only and And I think it sat in my studio office for a bit there for like at least two months.

1:19:57Just like, just taunting me, just taunting me, like build me now, please. And I'm like, I don't have my time. I don't have the time to do it. So I eventually did, but it wasn't until like things had shut down and things had changed that I actually had time to build it. So that's how it works out. Yeah. That's well, I'm glad you still pulled it off though. Cause you know, you could have had it sitting there for a whole year with no inventory on just one final remaining part or something. So it sounds like you pushed through it. And something stupid, right? Like a, like a break pad or something like that.

1:20:30Yeah. Or see, like call it something. Yeah, exactly. Something dumb. It's like critical, but like seemingly non-critical in the grand scheme of things. Let's zoom out big and, and look at your foresight to not collapse under the weight of all of the COVID stuff. And then, you know, I think you bought Kettle before. So you sort of, a lot of precursors you sort of paid attention to, to make you make some moves that were wise prior to COVID so that you can sustain everything that happened during COVID. How did Kettle come about? How did Trail One come about? Why did you feel like it made sense to go vertical and build your own and make your own things?

1:21:11And is that dramatically harder than retail? Yeah, it's, I mean, the reason we did both the Kettle project and the Trail One project, you know, this was pre-COVID is because I'd mentioned we'd already started to see how the mountain bike industry was evolving, just the cycling industry in general, with a lot of the brands going, you know, consumer direct or offering that as a channel and squeezing margins. And it's like we saw the faults and cracks, you know, just doing a strength, weaknesses, opportunities, and strengths, weaknesses, opportunities, and threats, like SWOT analysis, as they call it in the business world.

1:21:44So like we'd seen this stuff coming and we're like, yeah, this is, this is how we need to combat it. And, um, it also seems fun too, right. It seems awesome to be like, well, we've got this great infrastructure and team that we built with worldwide cyclery. The industry's evolving in a sort of unfortunate way. Um, but it also seems awesome to fire up a couple of our own brands that will, that will own and outright and be more vertical with. So, so that's why we did both those projects. And, uh, yeah, you know, I'm eternally grateful for pulling the trigger when we did, because as the bike industry went through that boom and bust, those two brands kettle in particular, um, because it's not reliant on the bike industry, cause it's mostly outdoor apparel.

1:22:25Um, that, uh, that really pulled us through in a big way, um, in, in the last just two, three years, once the bike industry sort of blew up and went downward, um, and kettle just kept growing, which was amazing. Um, cause it's just, it's just operating in a much larger total addressable market and just menswear in general. Um, so cattle has been doing super well and just growing and growing super fast. And a lot of our attention has gone there. And, uh, and trail one is definitely still sort of, uh, you know, in the bike industry, deep in the weeds, cause it's a straight up mountain bike component company.

1:23:01So it's, it's still a bit of a victim to the industry situation. And I have good optimistic sort of long-term view for it. But Trail 1 was also meant to be a great bit of a passion project. It wasn't really meant to be some huge, big, dominant mountain bike component brand. We wanted to make really good mountain bike components that we always wanted and work with a good engineer to design them. And then have a really cool and unique sort of philanthropic element to it, where every product that sold a dollar goes back to a trail network that it's named after. So we could actually build a brand that truly supported the sport of mountain biking.

1:23:35Um, and part of that was just, you know, I think that's the right way to do things. And I think it helps push the industry forward when somebody comes out and says, Hey, guess what? We have comparable flagship level mountain bike componentry, um, that's at competitive prices and it is, you know, actually really giving back to the sport in a cool way. So yeah, both of those businesses between Kettle and Trail One have, have been amazing and been, you know, so glad we did both of those. Cause, uh, obviously, you know, we couldn't have predicted a giant boom and bust cycle during COVID or predicted COVID.

1:24:10Um, so, uh, yeah, it was just, it was just good, good to have those. And, um, yeah, now, now they're a core piece of the puzzle. And yeah, like I'd mentioned earlier, Kettle is actually a bigger business and worldwide cyclery now year to date. Yeah. Are you familiar with the state of Texas at all? Oh yeah, definitely. You come here frequently? I wouldn't say frequently, but I've been to Austin many times and Dallas many times. Okay. Do you know the brand HEB? No. Okay. So you should study HEB. Okay. And I wonder if what you're doing now, I didn't piece this together until the moment you just said this, and this is why this is like off the cuff for me.

1:24:46So HEB is a really well-known Texas beloved. Like if you live here in Texas, you don't really shop for groceries anywhere else other than H-E-B if you're a true Texan. Okay. It's like that. And you know, Texas has got a lot of pride in terms of its choices, its size, like the rain is literally bigger here. Okay. When you get hit by a raindrop here, you get knocked down. Yeah. That's how big rain is here. i'm almost not even getting with you it's seriously big so heb is a grocery store and you know like a common thing amazon's doing this a lot of the brands they attract a lot of the customer base and they take energizer batteries and replace them with amazon basic batteries as an example right yeah and i'm not saying that trail one is is the amazon basics by no means am i trying to to say it's lesser but it's not it's been a while so i built my bike and thought about the components I use that I forget the brand that I use race face.

1:25:44I should do this. I use a really nice, um, really, really cool bars from, from race face. It doesn't matter which ones that are like R35s, I believe carbon bars, really fun, probably more than I need, but I go downhill here and there, uh, here and there. The point I'm trying to make is that HEB, they, they, the thing they've done uniquely different than I think a Kroger or an Aldi, or I'm not even a, an aficionado of, of grocery stores doesn't know this because this is how heb is to us texans is when you go into heb you will often choose the heb brand not one because it's cheaper because it is but two because it's it's got these particular roots it's uh texas farmer grown or as local as you possibly get while still being packaged good yeah that's cool and so heb has this really good um salsa you can get there called texas texas like what a better name for salsa right texas texas yeah not only one texas you got two texas in there okay and if i could buy stock in this company jeff i would totally buy stock it is the the best sauce you'll ever get from a can it's amazing yeah nice but it is an heb brand and so they aim to come out with competing brands to what would typically be you know the incumbents probably a little bit better and because of the way heb has positioned their brand, it's seen as even better, not just a cost comparative better, but like a literal product better.

1:27:14And I'm wondering if Kettle and Trail One might be that for you. Yeah, yeah, they are definitely. I mean, you know, Trail One would be more similar in that sense where Trail One has gone after the specific components that are basically fully optimized, not really going to change very much when you're thinking about, you know, grips, handlebars, pedals, stems, you know you can put your own unique flavor and spin on it in in some different ways and preferences but in in many ways there's like the innovation plateau has been hit years ago for these categories and if you can make a competitively priced product that is in every way shape or form as good or even slightly better than all of the incumbents and it has a better story and a better sort of actual supporting the sport type of brand behind it.

1:28:08It can just be like, that's a way better value prop, right? So yeah, so Trail One has been that way. And Kettle is funny because apparel is such a crazy space. You know, when you look at outdoor apparel, there's anything and everything. You can buy outdoor apparel from Amazon or Costco, and you You can also buy Arc'teryx for$900 and feel cool. It's like there's so many options and price points and branding and fashion and aesthetic. And, you know, what do you care about? Are you buying it because you want people to see your Arc'teryx logo and think you're rich? Or are you buying it because you actually want a small rare brand that has technical attributes that you really care about?

1:28:48Or do you just frankly want the cheapest rain jacket you can find and you got it at Costco? So it's like there's it's a way bigger market with way more options. So Kettle for us is very different because we've positioned it in a way where we're really just making the stuff that we specifically want. And, you know, we specifically want it at this price point. So not as outrageously as expensive as Patagonia or Arcteryx, but expensive enough that it's actually really good, like really good, high quality fabrics. And it can come with a lifetime repair policy and it can come with really high quality zippers and buttons and trim details and fabric that lasts.

1:29:26and actually performs well. So you got to hit some level of higher end price point to make that happen, but it doesn't need to be Arc'teryx level, which at that point you're just paying for a fashion brand. And it doesn't, you know, it can't really be below that towards the Amazon or Costco price point because then it just frankly falls apart and doesn't function well. So we're kind of figuring like, this is a sweet spot we think is relevant and what we want. And these are the designs and aesthetic that we want. So we're just really trying to make stuff that we specifically like and enjoy price point wise, functionality wise, looks wise.

1:29:59And luckily that had so far has just resonated well. Right. And we found the people who also care about those same things. So yeah, that's, that's been fun, but that's like kind of the gamble you take in a lot of business when you're creating a product is like, well, we like this. Hopefully other people do. Yeah. Well, I see the, I see the grand scale of kettle, but I'm not seeing the grand scale, at least from my perspective of trail one. Yeah, there will be. It's a tiny niche market, right? Like Trail One is going to be a niche market of high-end mountain bike components for enthusiast mountain bikers that care about good quality components that have a give back to the trail network.

1:30:42And yeah, it's a way smaller niche market and that's fine and understood. So the products, they aren't changing much because like you said, they're already kind of stabilized products anyways. yeah i think we'll we'll continue to introduce more stuff with trail one and refine existing things um and and find sort of new categories to to break into um and we'll also do some experimental stuff that you know one of the ways we're going to evolve it in the next couple years um there's a lot of these obscenely high-end crazy nice boutique european mountain bike component brands and i've always loved those and i think we can make some of that stuff in the u.s um trick stuff is an example of that or intend suspension um there there's some wild stuff that the the engineering and the the passion that happens in a lot of it's in germany because a lot of the manufacturing's there um is insane and a lot of those crazy high-end boutique rare things uh only exist in europe and i think you know trail one could definitely make some stuff like that in the u.s um so we're gonna and it's talking about a niche market this is like the niche of the niche of people who want to you know 300 titanium stem or something like that but yeah that's what stuff we like and we're going to try making it and you know be much smaller quantities but higher price points and um yeah just just a fun brand to run and something that we can be proud of because it actually is genuinely supporting trail builders and trail building efforts all over the place which i think matters for the sport it does matter for the sport i think you'll laugh at the page i'm on on trail one i was on the titanium rotor bolts upgrade kit you offer if you didn't know this you offer gold which i love i don't have gold as a need i have been a rainbow guy myself uh enough uh that dipped like i got my chain i think is that i think my rear cassette is that sounds like you need some matching rotor bolts that are made out of titanium i really do so that's why i was looking at these i was like you know what i didn't know you sold bolts but now that i know that i can get some valve stems too if you want to They all look together.

1:32:49I might just have to get my bling on, you know, my matching bling. The design of the things here is so good, though. How did you, I imagine your process to build this was find the right people, hire the right people, put them in the right kind of places, let them go and do the right work. Or how much personal hand did you have in the design? because there's a lot of minimalism and a lot of similarity in the like from the bolt to the stem to the you name it there's a lot of similarity to the just the look and the feel yeah so kind of keeping that consistency with the industrial design language across the whole product line uh is something we've always been cognizant of and the way we've been able to pull that off is yes myself and liam um have had a ton of input on all of this stuff and we've also been fortunate enough to, um, I have a long time industry friend who's actually one of the original founders of race face, um, since left race face, once they got acquired by Fox and he, he was able to connect us to, and he's actually one of the founders of trail one, one of the co-founders.

1:33:57And he was able to connect us with a incredibly talented PhD level engineer that did a short stint at race face on a work visa. He's an Irishman, but he did a short stint at race face on a work visa in Canada for a while. And now he's actually back at the University of Dublin teaching like really sophisticated engineering classes. And it's a side, so Trail One's a side project for him as a co-founder too. So, so we've got some really good people on the procurement side, figuring out the best factories to manufacture this stuff. And then the engineering side to actually do all the really technical CAD drawings of all the stuff.

1:34:37And then, you know, Liam and I having a lot of input on how things look and should be shaped and specs and all of that. So, um, yeah, it's just piecing together a team like that, that, uh, you know, can execute on, on good products. Yeah. Yeah. We've done a great job. Uh, I will tell you, I don't own any Trill 1 products and I think it's because I bought all my stuff and I'm like, well, I don't need two stems. Yeah, exactly. I just, just generally, I mean, I would like to have another one that we may have to sell my current race phase one to just replace it. So there's not a lot of utility in replacing it, but it had not already per now.

1:35:13The next time I get grips, I'm gonna get your grips. That's for sure. I think I've done the, the Odie. Odie eyes. Yeah. The Odie eyes. Yeah. Whatever you guys suggested. I think I eventually landed there. Like I took some of your advice on like which different grips to try out and just landed on the, the Odie. I think they're pros. probably call it correctly but they're kind of like thin they're not super thick they got some good grip to them they're about 20 ish bucks they're not super expensive maybe 30 bucks i don't know what the number is but fairly affordable but i mean how often do your grips i mean i think grips probably last my grips probably last me less than yours because you probably bike every day i don't get the bike every day jeff sadly all depends on how much you ride yeah man it really does um but i'm a big fan of trail one uh just haven't personally bought any of your stuff yet I'm looking forward to the day when I need to replace something.

1:36:04And there you go. I got a trail once a handlebar instead of a replacement from something else. Yeah. Thanks, man. What about Kettle? Then how do you take this to the, like, this must be the juggernaut of what you've got going on. Like, is this the biggest thing you have going on right now? Kettle? Yeah, absolutely. So like 80 % of your time is going to Kettle and then 20 % sprinkled us elsewhere. How's it work? Pretty close. It's probably 70, 30. They are all pretty intertwined, though. So, you know, the three stores that we have for Worldwide Cyclery, which are also, you know, basically small retail store on the front, sort of customer service and admin in the middle and then warehousing and fulfillment in the back.

1:36:47So we have one of those in California, Nevada and Pennsylvania. And those those stores also do all of the warehousing and fulfillment for Kettle and Trail One. and then it's all a bit intertwined in the back in terms of who's working on what brand and how the finances are co-mingled, at least on the worldwide cyclery and Kettle side. Trail One's a separate entity, but anyways, it's all a bit intertwined, especially the infrastructure and staff with all three brands. So I couldn't tell you an exact percentage split that I have because it's pretty intermingled. Too hard, yeah. Yeah, but needless to say, Kettle is a huge opportunity for us.

1:37:28That's growing really well. And we know it's just an important piece of the puzzle. And frankly, it's something that we're having a lot of fun with. To be honest, as you probably heard in my agitation talking about the bike industry, a little demoralized, not just with the boom and bust cycle is what it is, but more just the way that the industry has evolved in a way that's really, unfortunately, neglected good retailers, good retail infrastructure, good uh you know good marketing for the sport to get more people into it like it's just evolved in a way that is is detrimental to the growth of the sport and that's a bit demoralizing on the mountain bike side of things um and on the apparel side of things with kettle it's actually been the opposite it's actually really fun to see you know the enthusiasm people have for being adventurous and traveling and going outdoors and um and how technical fabrics have really come a long way and manufacturing methods have come a long way.

1:38:27And there's a lot more cool, little intricate, useful details you can mix into apparel that didn't really exist years back. And for people who care about little thoughtful details like that and we're those people, we like designing that stuff and testing it and making it and finding the people who also care about those things. And for Kettle, that's just been a huge win, right? Like we've had so much fun doing that. And yeah, kind of the reviews and testimonials we get on the product and the repeat business we get kind of speaks for itself. So that's, yeah, it's grown, grown very fast and been, been definitely a huge focus of, of mine.

1:39:04And yeah, that's, that's a lot of where I'm putting my energy these days. This could be a big business, right? Like it could be$50 million plus kind of business. I don't know. I'm just picking a big number. I don't even know if it's a real number or not. Like, and kelly like the a really really really big business if you play the long game right absolutely spend the right kind of money on marketing and totally yeah i mean there's billion dollar plus apparel brands all over the place and even just in the menswear category you know lululemon does over and patagonia does over a you know hundreds of millions and just men outdoor menswear only so really way bigger total addressable market so my number was pretty accurate then yeah it's actually on a small scale like a 50 million dollar apparel brand would is not even really a nothing that's like a little little brand in the scheme of things yeah the the big the big dogs are pumping out way bigger numbers than that and when you say outdoor do you mean just basically anything that's has to do with like hiking camping biking you name it kind of outdoor yeah it's it's it's all very blurred in a sense now especially with how you know a lot of people wear, you know, quote unquote, outdoor apparel casually, because it's so comfortable.

1:40:20But yeah, we specifically like is, is, you know, making apparel that is versatile, that you can kind of wear daily and be really comfortable in traveling, but also has sort of the necessary technical attributes to get out there and perform. And during, you know, hiking, trail running, mountain biking, kayaking, fishing, whatever, like you name it, just outdoor activities. Yeah. Like, and then just making specialized products to like rain shells or more specific pants, like specifically fit short for mountain biking or specific pants for rock climbing, like stuff like that too. So yeah, we're continuing to just build out all the apparel that we ourselves actually use a lot.

1:40:59And, you know, we do a lot of mountain biking, hiking, trail running, adventure racing, rock climbing. We do all those things. So we're just making, making a product lineup that, you know, covers all those bases. So you just go and do what you do and you find challenges and problems. You're like, okay, let's make this new thing to solve this problem. The Jeffinator. I don't know. I'm just thinking of something, you know, just cliche and stupid really, but you know, you just do what you do and solve problems for those that are like you. Yeah. Yeah. In large part. That's right. Yeah. I mean, and it's funny.

1:41:33I think the, you know, solving problems is kind of a funny thing in business because it used to be imperative. Like, what problem are you solving? But now I think a lot of modern businesses are, did you build the mousetrap better? You didn't invent a mousetrap, but did you build it better? um yeah you know a lot of us like we live in 2025 you're like the number of inventions that you're going to come up with now versus what you'd come up with 50 years ago are very different so a lot of a lot nowadays is about refinement um and uh and refinement towards specific use cases or you know specific demographics like little little details like that i think are important in businesses and you know can't just judge your business off of like is it solving a real problem It's like, well, no, no, we didn't just invent a way to search the internet in the year 1997.

1:42:24Instead, we figured out how to make really refine a rain shell for traveling. There you go. Whatever, you know. Which takes a whole different kind of subject matter expertise to do so. Yeah. You mentioned LLMs, APIs, and I think even AI initially early in the call. Mm hmm. Does AI play a role at all in your day to day life as an individual? Are you using AI? Is it helping or hurting your business? Yeah, absolutely. I am definitely a nerd and all that stuff and love it and enjoy it. And I've been an early adopter of all of it. And yeah, I use JetGPT daily for a whole range of things. I always experiment with our businesses on Google Workspace.

1:43:14So I always dabble in experiment with the way that Google is integrating Gemini, which is largely terrible and not very useful. Our customer support staff and the content guys, like they're using it to write articles, reply to emails. Um, yeah, so we're, we're leveraging it every which way we can and every which way that's possible to, you know, whether that's automate tedious tasks or, or a lot of it's just, just language related, like writing things and replying to email, stuff like that. Proofreading stuff. Like there's, there's so many useful cases for it. Um, I don't know, by and large it's, uh, you know, people love to say how helpful it is.

1:43:50And yes, we've absolutely seen some efficiency gains for it, um, because of it, um, and use it all the time internally for personal reasons or business matters, but it's not revolutionized anything yet. Um, it's not like, you know, I'm not firing people because I've replaced them with AI robots, like just answering customer support queries automatically. Like that's, there's still the human touch. The humans are just much more efficient so far. Um, way more efficient, which, which I think is, is cool and useful. And, um, I mean, and you're in the space where, you know, there is probably some pretty substantial things being revolutionized with writing code and stuff like that.

1:44:26Everything's changing. Yeah. It's a whole different, like the response from you to the response to somebody else we talked to today. We recorded a podcast this morning, for example, and it's just dramatically like night and day changing the future of software development. Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. As we speak about it. That's cool. It's totally changing how a seasoned, senior, professional, well-trained, multi-language aware software developer right software today is dramatically different today than it will be tomorrow. I mean, it's always been true, but specifically now we have the burgeoning effects of that truly taking place and not being this pie in the sky potential, like a literal truth coming true as we speak.

1:45:15It's so wild. So it's wild. Like y 'all are using it on the implementation level where you're a word calculator. This is how we describe it. Right. I'd imagine you personally are probably running different business models. Maybe you're doing like different forecasting or ingesting it, ingesting data and doing stuff like that. Like that's how I personally am doing things. I'm not solving different problems. I'm like forecasting and scenario based, uh, you know, breaking the business, so to speak, you know, whatever we're trying to do as an example. So, So, yeah. Yeah, it is cool. I mean, it's amazing tools have come out so far.

1:45:51And I'm always trying to find different use cases for them that I enjoy. And I also just love to research and learn anything and everything. So being able to converse with all of humanity's knowledge is pretty cool. And I use that all the time to learn and study and research, which is super fun. I am curious, too, just from your perspective, you know, we have we pay for a lot of SaaS products. and everyone in the e-commerce space does, and they're usually grumpy about it. Do you think that all of these SaaS tools in the e-commerce space are going to get disrupted a bit in a way that's going to benefit e-commerce companies?

1:46:27Am I still going to need to pay$3 ,000 a month for an ERP system, which is just a piece of software, or pay$500 a month for a review platform for a Shopify plugin? Or is that just going to get destroyed because people are going to be able to build those for so much less money? I think even if somebody rebuilt it, they would still find a way to charge you for it. So I don't think the money goes away. I think what may change potentially is if you had a software team already that was building software internal tools for your companies, which you may already have. I think that their job gets grows.

1:47:03Like, so if you've got even one or two person, just call them a tech team, somebody who runs the websites. Yeah. You know, it could be a small team of two or three. I'm just hypothesizing. But now their job should be to start to think about how to build out your own internal tools, build out your own internal systems, because it will get it's getting democratized more. And it's not that non-software developers are making software. It's just that people who are less entrenched in software creation have new liberations, you know, new guides, new, like you're a lifelong learner. I would just say it's like more on ramps to the, to the road you may want to go on.

1:47:47You know, it's kind of like that. It's not a, it's not like a literal, just I'm doing it for you. It's now you've got a, an uncanny buddy that's willing to help you provided you pay it you know to do the work you know kind of thing and that's going to get more and more expensive over time potentially but you have some you know some diminishing return when it comes to that like some people are paying 200 bucks a month as an example to open ai and their higher end things and same thing with like clod and anthropic they're paying the higher end versions to get access to more unfettered or unlimited or multi-user or whatever you call it and you're going to have that but i think if your team if your tech team is making software for you over time they can begin to make more software for you and maybe start to chip away at those extra services that you don't really need anymore because they're kind of like a database in the cloud basically now they have security and they have maybe they have sock to compliance or some sort of other compliance that you need to now take on internally, the problem just shifts.

1:48:51Your cost basis probably stays somewhat similar. You know, like you pay them three grand a year, you're going to pay somebody else something per year to deal with the problem, to now have the problem. So it might just shift a little bit. I think over time, you'll have more of an opportunity if you don't already have an opportunity to create more of your own business level software that's bespoke, unique, one-off kind of thing. Like you mentioned APIs and ingesting data, stuff like that, you know? Yeah. Is my, is my guess, you know? Yeah. If they're not already doing that, they should be doing more of that.

1:49:25And I think more internal tools is probably good, but now you got to maintain them. And when they break, they're broken, you know, and you got to fix them. So, you know. It's always a pros and cons of building internal. You got to judge, you know, your downtime. Was it worth it to take it internal? Well, maybe we gained some agency over it, but now we gained, we also gained the full-on maintenance ability of it like we have to maintain it when it's down it's our fault you know yeah so we had to learn uptime now we have to learn a whole new problem set so what was once just a wordpress website or a shopify website has now grown into a whole different problem so it depends on if you want to bite that off yeah you know so that's that's my thoughts on it but i'm glad you're using it i'm glad that ai is a part of what you're doing on the day to day.

1:50:10Cause I mean, if it wasn't, but you're sharp, Jeff, you're sharp, you know what you're doing. So what's, what's the next big thing for you? So if, if kettle is where things are at now, how do you like, what makes life good for you? What's the next thing for you? What makes life good for you in these next steps you take? Yeah. So, you know, my, my take on business in general is I'm not trying to conquer the world. Um, quite the opposite. I'm, I'm trying to run lifestyle business and do it really well. And what I mean by that is I want to have a business that I can be really proud of in the way that it treats its customers, the products that it produces, the way that it treats its internal employees, the way that it brings things to the world, whether that's humor or creativity or content.

1:50:56I like a business that I can be proud of that hits all of those things in a really good way and just provides a great, awesome life for myself and the team. And that's it. Like we don't have revenue targets. We're not trying to, you know, be like, oh, let's hit this next year. Let's hit that next year. Like, no, we don't have investors. Like this is just, we're having fun over here. Can we make a good living running a good business with employees that love working here and customers that love shopping with us? Like, that's it. That's all. Just calm down after that, you know, like just have a good life.

1:51:30So, so that's, that's my outlook on it. Um, well, thanks man. I mean, it's, it's definitely, it's definitely contrary to the typical, you know, hustle at all costs, build a unicorn, sell it. Like, no, I'm not at all. Like I just want to run an awesome, fun business and have a good time doing it and, and make sure that along the way we're, you know, building products that we can be proud of. And the people love working here and people love shopping with us. Like that's, that's it. Like that's, that to me is important. Um, I, I, I feel much more sort of fulfilled and, uh, vindicated when I see positive testimonials about the service we provide, the products we make and the happiness and kind, you know, cheerfulness of our internal staff, right.

1:52:11And our ability to take care of them like that to me is what matters. Um, I'm not going for an exit. I'm not going for an IPO. I'm not, none of that. Like, I'm just trying to, you know, enjoy myself, enjoy my life, make sure I take plenty of vacations and time off and stay fit and take care of my body and make sure the rest of the staff does that. And, um, yeah, to me, that's like what a lifestyle business is and should be. And that's what I care about. So definitely contrary to, you know, I think most hustle at all costs, build and scale, be the unicorns take is it's like, I'm took kind of the opposite.

1:52:42That's good. It seems like you get a, a healthy outlook on, uh, your next steps and just generally how you operate that's why like i said i was i gravitated towards what you've done even if it wasn't you could have been doing something different if you just had the same energy um like the thing i'm now into is golf i don't know if you're into golf or not you're into golf by chance i like golf i'm not super into it but i definitely enjoy it yeah so when i saw kettle i was thinking gosh the next obvious maneuver there would be potentially golf i don't know how well it's almost outdoorsy yeah it's definitely athletic and uh you know charges high dollars potentially for your your average polo costs you know a low cost is like 50 bucks a decent cost is like a hundred or so dollars for like a decent polo you know so i don't know yeah there's room in that space too for i think a lot more it's probably crowded but there's room for fun so the same reasons why you're in the business you're in currently is i think there's the same kind of fun nature and there's a whole new playful nature coming to golf that hasn't quite been there in the last i'd say for most of its time and like the last five years it's it's changed i think it's ready for a younger audience which means new people coming in which means a whole new different psychology of buyer you know where the older psychology of the buyer may have been this, I don't know, clicky uppity golfer where I think now the landscape of who golfs, I'm just so surprised by who golfs.

1:54:15Yeah. I'm like, you're, you golf like for real? I'm not like, it's like, I wouldn't take you as somebody who cares about your score or like what you're trying to break or what you're trying to like, you don't seem like that kind of person, not you, but like this fictitious person I'm suggesting, like I'm so surprised by who's, who's involved in golf, Yeah, it's a cool sport and it's great to see how well it's done post-COVID. It's actually one of the poster childs of business that, funny enough, it gets compared to cycling for all the wrong reasons. So, you know, golf had quite a big boom as well during COVID and it's hung on to the customer base.

1:54:53A lot of people got into golf and have still stuck with golf post-COVID. It didn't really bust. Whereas a lot of these other sports, cycling in particular, went boom and bust. And people said, well, you know, a lot of the reason golf did so well was it was a little bit more. I don't think inclusive is the correct word, but it was a little bit more. It was more appealing long term to different people. And they actually enjoyed it. Like they went and got into golfing during COVID. They never really golfed before. And it became habitual to be like, you know, once a month or even every Sunday they go out and play with their boys.

1:55:27And some people take it really seriously. Some people go out there, do a beer hole. but the golf courses and the people who were on the courses and the staff at the courses and the experience of golfing wasn't ever really derogatory or exclusionary and so more people got into it and just kept doing it and they liked it and it's like hung on to a lot of these newcomers to the sport in a really good way um in in the exact opposite way that the cycling industry got all these newcomers and then just lost all of them um so it's it is cool to look at how well the industry's done. And yeah, I'm actually just in the apparel space too, I've gotten familiar with some of those new golf brands that are much more, um, you know, off, off the cuff and unique and bad birdie is one of the ones that I follow and admire.

1:56:10And, um, it is cool. Yeah. There's like new golf apparel. That's a little more technical, but a little more flavorful and edgy. Um, yeah. And you're right. It's, you know, I think as, as the baby boomers phase out off the course, So there's going to be a lot more millennials taking over the golf course scene and the flavor is going to change. And it is cool to see the industry change and evolve like that. Yeah, I think you're right about that, Bertie. They got a really cool brand. Yeah. I like a lot of their stuff. I mean, you look at everybody in all their every photo, it's it's, you know, somebody that's 30 or younger.

1:56:42You know, so I have no idea what your age is, but people who listen to my show know my age. So I'm not 30. I'm 11 years older than you, Jeff. it feels weird to say that well we're all aging slowly but surely man yeah you know one day at a time right one second at a time well i look forward to you so are you are you hinting at at the fact that kettle might get into golf oh i i don't know i don't it kind of depends on any any thoughts at all about that or a whole separate brand end. Yeah, I don't think we do separate brand. You know, most of most people are asking us when we're going to make women's apparel.

1:57:20And I just like, I'm not trying to make a lot of a lot of a lot of a lot of a lot of a lot of a lot of a lot of a lot of a lot of a lot of a lot of a lot of a lot of a lot of a lot of a lot of a lot on what products we make next and what sort of, you know, categories we get into. If for whatever reason we all start golfing more, we'll probably just make golf apparel. If for whatever reason we all start, you know, surfing more, maybe we'll make more surf apparel. So I literally can't predict what we'll make in the next five years because it just depends on what we happen to get into more. Um, you know, recently we've gotten, a lot of us have gotten more into, um, backcountry skiing, mountaineering and adventure racing and trail running.

1:58:11So we're just making more stuff of those categories because we like that. Um, and we're definitely interested in making bags too, because we travel a lot and there's so many different bags out there and like little things about bags that you can do that are totally. Yeah. And everyone's got different preferences. And so, um, and footwear, I have no idea. It just all depends on what we end up, you know, just like the few of us here, what we really get into. Um, but I, I would, I would bet at some point you know it might be a few more years we'll we'll go through a phase where we're into golf and we'll start making golf apparel just because of that reason so we're just making shit that we want to use and like and what we're into at the moment so who knows what it'll be next that's a really good thing well i was hoping you were getting into golf or into golf because i figured that uh at some point you start to offer my next passion sport which is golf uh some yeah Some content, some insights, you know, I mean, all that good stuff.

1:59:08I think the space around golf is so really unique. Really, it is. I've been enjoying it personally. I've been enjoying playing with friends. I like it for business. I like it for networking. I like it for just getting outdoors. One thing I think that golf has over mountain biking is the collarbone scenario. Yeah, much safer. Yeah, I mean, it's, you know, it's a lot easier to be mobile with my body, not broken, because I crashed. going over some really chunky stuff, which I find super fun. I mean, like the adventure in me, the like I'm 46 since I'm not young, I'm not old either. I'm at that age where if I break something, it hurts more than it did 10 years ago.

1:59:47So I'm a bit more cautious of a rider, but at the same time, like I get out there and I just, I'm shredding hardcore. But I'm definitely more mindful of my shred. Yeah. Whereas like two or three years ago, I was a little less concerned about it. Now I'm more concerned about it. And so golf is seemingly like a better hobby slash sport because it's got different benefits. Let's just say just different benefits, you know? Yeah. I admire any, any sport that has like a good way for you to get outside with friends and converse chat, get exercise, have fun in the sun. Like I don't care what it is. I like all those things.

2:00:27And I really appreciate how, how golf has evolved into such a social sport. where it just becomes a great way to get away with your boys and go hang out for eight hours playing golf and shooting the shit and laughing. Well, you got good days then. I can't do eight hours. I'm not allowed, okay? I got four or five, Jeff. If I'm gone five hours to golf, that is the full day of golf. Yeah, I'm in trouble at that point. I got different things that tie me and bind me, so to speak. Totally. Yeah, I'm glad to hear you're engulfed. That's interesting. What else what's left unsaid, Jeff? I know we've gone for quite a bit, probably more than you probably thought you would.

2:01:08But what's left unsaid to this audience that is just curious about your next steps or any further insight you can offer? Yeah, you know, I think we covered a lot. And yeah, I appreciate you having me on the show. I know I'm definitely a different guest than you normally have. So I appreciate that. And yeah, man, fun, fun chatting all this stuff with you. I mean, one of the things that, you know, if I were to be an advocate for anything, I'm definitely an advocate to live a good life and just be thoughtful about the way your career is shaped, whether that's your own business or or how well your career kind of feeds your lifestyle.

2:01:46I definitely am an advocate for lifestyle businesses like I explained like try and find a business you can run that is fun and enjoyable and you can be proud of and and or try and be in a career or a space a job that you really enjoy the lifestyle of it and you love your work and you love the industry that it's in I'm just an advocate for that because I you know I've I've seen so many people come to our businesses from these corporate jobs. They're just like, I couldn't do it. Like I'm a, I loved bikes my whole life, or I loved outdoors my whole life. And I've been an engineer at Gore-Tex and I just can't stand it anymore.

2:02:25Um, and then, and then they like take a huge pay demotion and come work in a much more fun industry. And they're like, this is so I should have done this forever. And so, so I'm definitely an advocate to like really be, you know, to tell people, just be thoughtful about how you spend your eight hours a day working. And ideally it's in an industry, um, that you're passionate about and can really feed your lifestyle and your hobbies in a good way. Um, so yeah, that's, that's the only thing I'm a, I'm a true advocate about. And I, and I want people to think about and consider, cause you know, I think the days of, you know, us having to grind away to just make a paycheck at a job we hate just to survive, like those days are kind of gone.

2:03:04Like we've got so much more opportunity and how big and complex this economy is now that take advantage of that and actually love what you do in your work yeah and i will say that the the show's taking a bit to get coordinated because every time i've reached out to you've been busy you've been traveling the world so you really do speak what you're saying because the that's reason that's reason why it's like you've been busy yeah i'm all over the place my calendar's booked out a long ways i think we're going like to Australia or something like that you're like I'm going I'm leaving Australia for uh this bike trip or something like that I'm like yeah dang it I want to go and that'd be kind of cool but that's your life you know like you get to you get to sell bikes and make gear and make components and you know influence folks but at the same time you get to go and just see the world and enjoy the sport and enjoy the people you're doing it with totally man yeah is the is is just so cool man i'm so proud of you so so uh just proud of what you've done um stoked for for all the stuff you've done for you and the team for sure well thank you and i appreciate all the kind words and i'm just it's just awesome to chat with you and hear that you had a great experience getting into mountain biking and learning from our channels and getting more into the sport from that like that's awesome like that's literally why we do it so people can learn and enjoy and get more into the sport and have fun doing it like that's the whole reason so always more fun That's for sure.

2:04:25I mean, I really, I think the, the work y 'all did with your YouTube channel and just the way you, all the things you talked about with your company, the way you design it from being thoughtful, you know, one thing I'll leave you with is, is I was, I was choosing between a hardtail and a full squish at the time. And I thought I, at the time, I thought it had to be either, or I didn't know you could buy two bikes, Jeff. I didn't know you can have two bikes. Okay. Just like you got two computers, you got two bikes. Yeah. You know, I was like, you know, I can have this hardtail and I can have my full squish and I can have two bikes.

2:04:59Totally. I didn't know that at the time. So I was really like, OK, I could I got to get one of these things. And I was looking at a hardtail frame and I was trying to choose the fork. And it was a really helpful process and enjoyable process to email your support folks and then not just tell me like what options were good to consider, but to dream the bike with me. yeah you know i think that was the coolest thing ever was it wasn't just customer support it wasn't just let me get a question answered about this product or here's the link on the web go find out yourself dude it was like okay no i see why you're thinking like 130 in the front for this bike and why that makes sense maybe you want to go 140 because you'll be a little bit more aggressive this is all insider speak for you know how many millimeters your fork travel will be you know and uh and so just without having that community without having other buddies to like really i mean i had other friends but like they were tired of talking about things with me you know and uh and so to like just have friends by association through worldwide cyclery was pretty cool you know i definitely had if you go into your your support system you'll see a few emails from me uh kind of stupid asking questions about forks and travel and what to choose and that's how that's how it starts man everyone's got to start somewhere it's complicated products it is and i always appreciated the fact that just the the dna of your business was let's serve this person versus sell this person yeah let's serve them their quest for more knowledge and their quest for more enjoyment and a friend you know and that that to me was really really cool and it spoke dividends comparative to your competition in this case so i appreciate that.

2:06:41But Jeff, again, thank you so much for being the awesome entrepreneur and, you know, just curious person, the athlete that you've been to explore these sports and not just explore them and keep all the goods for yourself, but find a way to share with others and build a team and build a business. And like, really what you built is just tremendous. And I'm so, so thankful and so proud of you. Yeah. I appreciate it. Well, thank you. Can't say thank you enough for the kind words.

2:07:09okay achievement unlocked for me talk to one more hero of mine yes jeff kayley is one of those people i've been following as you've heard in this podcast jeff and his companies for many many years i'm a customer i'm now a friend you know all those things but it's so cool i'm a big fan of Jeff, if you haven't been to WorldwideCyclery.com or any of his adjacent brands, Kettle or Trail One, check them out. Jeff and his team are amazing, been a customer for years, and now a friend. Okay, we're in Denver soon. ChangeLaw.com slash live. You should be there. $15 ticket? What? Yeah, that's for you. We want you to be there.

2:07:55Okay, that's it. This show's done. We'll see you next week.

2:08:04Game on.