ShopTalk & Friends (Friends)

27:36Oh, it's so smart. Oh, my God. In lots of ways, Reddit did kind of win, didn't they? I mean, they're still kicking. Well, and they don't sit around like, oh, I want to add a route, but I have to kick somebody. They don't have that problem. That's true. We have a file in our app called username underscore blacklist.rb because the signup process is still Rails, right? It's a little service we have. And every time we invent some new little thing we need, a new route of any kind, we have to remember to go into the username blacklist and make sure that that route is not a taken username. Otherwise, we risk somebody signing up for it or something and having it conflict with the routing.

28:16It's just a silly little detail. There has been a few cases where we had to kick somebody off a username. You know, like they have the username account or something. Right. Like we need slash account to do something. we're like oh sorry you can't have that i don't think anybody's ever cared there's never been like a high profile case of it but it is a right i originally signed up as slash img and chris kicked me chris slash img yeah try to get api or whatever yeah that's a good little hack there you know so we got here because dave's argument was that you don't own your own content the elons are the future owners of Twitter slash X slash meta slash Facebook, whatever, pick your platform where you got ownership of some sort of handle you feel like is yours because you have claimed it.

29:06But the platform owner and the conglomerate, it may or may not be, is the true owner. And that's the challenge. That's the rub is the viability of the web is that. It's true on CodePen too. I actually own your thing. Sorry. That's right. You know, like I've tried to be cool about it and I have all your stuff exportable and all that. Yeah, but if we really need a username or something, I'm afraid that's an internal decision by us. Okay, I got one more thing here. CodePen.io. Slash changelog? Slash changelog. If 404s. Come on, Chris. If 404s on our system, that means it's just open and you can just go get it.

29:40Okay, sweet. Go grab it, Adam. We'll have to clean that quick. You've got T-minus however many days. Tell published. End days to figure that out. or tell chris rose it in his ruby file and we can't have it i there was um a hank green video the other day internet personality hank green and you know it was like a mastodon versus twitter or versus blue sky kind of thing which at the time of recording blue sky is the new hotness that we are talking about if you're listening to this in the future again yeah it's the new hotness again yeah he was you know he was kind of saying like it sounded like famous guy on internet complaining he's not getting enough likes i'll i'll give it like he was like i posted this here and i posted this here and i feel like this one got shadow banned because i mentioned blue sky because i posted it without the word blue sky and it got more likes the next time you know it got more engagement like eight minutes later or whatever so like it's kind of weird maybe some anecdata or evidence there.

30:44But it also just goes to show like, there's also this theory that he exposes that is like Facebook and, and Twitter are, and maybe even, I guess like LinkedIn, I don't even know, but these social networks, let me say that these social networks are kind of like impeding the like views, the algorithmic views of things with links in them. Yes. Because they are, they want you on their own site. A link is a bounce out. It's not, doesn't keep you there. So better to like. It's a hundred percent true. Offends me so horribly. It's a hundred percent true, right? Well, yeah, I would love to see more data on it.

31:24It seemed like. Well, it was right there because Twitter did quote unquote open source their algorithm. Oh, and you can go read it right in there in specific. Now the other ones are all kind of reading the tea leaves. So I won't say it's a hundred percent to run LinkedIn, but everybody who studies LinkedIn will tell you that it is true. I know at one point in the Twitter open source algorithm, it's right there, like devalue if it has an external loop. Wow. That makes me so sad. Just yesterday, I sat down, I saw a cool, this is good content for a podcast anywhere. Look up NumberFlow. It's a really cool component, and they make it for React, Vue, and Svelte, even though it's a web component under the hood.

32:02It probably should offend Dave personally that they should just make the web component usable. But it's so beautiful. Just click those numbers, the shuffle button at the top of the number flow website. So beautiful. And I was like, I'm going to show people this in a video. So I just record myself as a little video. I'm going to play with it. I'm going to show people how to use it on CodePen too. So now I have this little video that I want to share on my social networks. And then I go to write a little tweet for it from the CodePen account. CodePen is still a little bit on Twitter. Because it's harder to stomach getting rid of that for business perspectives.

32:36It's like easier personally, but I don't spend a lot of time there. But if I shoot a video like this, I still want to do a tweet for it. So I write out the tweet and I say, oh, look at this is a really classy web component. I put the video on there and then I'm like, but it doesn't feel right to not put the link to the thing. You know, like I feel like it's too weird to like I'm just playing to the algorithm. If I don't put the link or I do the stupid little thing where you reply to it and then put the link in the reply, it just makes me vomit for some reason. I hate it. That's why it's there for a lot of accounts that when you see that on there, I've seen.

33:10They're just playing with the algorithm, you know. They just know that if you put an external link in the main tweet, it's going to get devalued. And so they put it in the. Yeah, that's what makes me just barf in my mouth. I can't deal with it. So I put the link in the thing. I'm like, I don't care. Just devalue me then. I'm putting the link in the tweet. That's right. I'm just doing it. So sorry. Like our little form of rebellion, you know. Yeah. But it just, like it attacks what's good about the web. 100%. aggregators, people who share links. Like I found this, this is cool. Like that is like what, that's the, the fabric, that's the webbing of the web.

33:44And we just like, give it up. But you know, like my favorite blogs are blogs that link to blogs followed by blogs that write blog posts about other blog posts. Those are like the two best blogs. It's like when I'm on the verge and they're talking about a product and they don't link to the product's website i get so mad you know i'm just almost like blood rage like please just link to the thing you're talking about spend time fleshing out your description link to everything if you can yeah well all the pertinent things at least if it was a main highlighted thing for sure try to link out to it you know yeah i mean if you're reviewing a thing yeah i mean we're we probably ebbed and flowed in our in our ability to fully best execute show notes, Jared, over the years?

34:32Sure. We've done pretty well, I would say. Right. I feel like the more podcasts we produce per week, the harder it is to make awesome show notes every single time. And now back in the day, we used to like handwrite sentences and it was a much more bigger deal. Well, can't you, our solution to it, which is not, I don't, I'm not saying this is the way to go, but we don't put links in the transcripts either. Cause I think that's really hard to like, the moment I say the word ably again, to link that to ably, well, that's a tall order there, I think. Instead, we just put a pile of the most relevant links at the top.

35:05Just be like, links from the show. And it just will just have ably in the list up there. That's basically what we do. A list of links. And we try to get them all. Yeah, I like your style with that. You're like, I think you actually use the terminology, just links. That's cool. Just links. Here's links. Yeah. And I think we do something similar where it's just like a notes section and it could be a paragraph it could be links it could be a list it could be an image you know it's similarly like it's almost like a blog post in a way like in terms of what it can contain it's not just links i've seen people go deep deep deep on their show notes and i have respect for it but i also just think that's a lot of depth on show notes you are you are seoed bud Good job.

35:49Yeah, later. You know, and now it's all AI. There's AI generated show notes and it starts to get where it's like, oh my goodness. What's up, friends? I'm here with Kurt Mackey, co-founder and CEO of Fly. As you know, we love Fly. That is the home of changelog.com. But Kurt, I want to know how you explain Fly to developers. Do you tell them a story first? How do you do it? I kind of change how I explain it based on almost like the generation of developer I'm talking to. So like for me, I built and shipped apps on Heroku, which if you've never used Heroku is roughly like building and shipping an app on Vercel today.

36:23It's just it's 2024 instead of 2008 or whatever. And what frustrated me about doing that was I didn't I got stuck. You can build and ship a Rails app with a Postgres on Heroku the same way you can build and ship a Next.js app on Vercel. But as soon as you want to do something interesting, like as soon as you want to at the time, I think one of the things I ran into is like I wanted to add what used to be like kind of the basis for Elasticsearch. I want to do full text search in my applications. You kind of hit this wall with something like Heroku where you can't really do that. I think lately we've seen it with like people wanting to add LLMs kind of inference stuff to their applications.

36:58On Vercell or Heroku or Cloudflare or whoever these days, they've started like releasing abstractions that sort of let you do this. But I can't just run the model I'd run locally on these black box platforms that are very specialized. For the people my age, it's always like, Oh, Heroku was great, but I outgrew it. And one of the things that I felt like I should be able to do when I was using Heroku was like run my app close to people in Tokyo for users that were in Tokyo. And that was never possible. For modern generation devs, it's a lot more Vercel based. It's a lot like Vercel is great right up until you hit one of their hard line boundaries.

37:31And then you're kind of stuck. There's the other one. We've had someone within the company. I can't remember the name of this game. But the tagline was like five minutes to start forever to master. It's sort of how our pitching fly is like you can get an app going in five minutes. but there's so much depth to the platform that you're never going to run out of things you can do with it. So unlike AWS or Heroku or Vercel, which are all great platforms, the cool thing we love here at ChangeLog most about Fly is that no matter what we want to do on the platform, we have primitives, we have abilities, and we as developers can charge our own mission on Fly.

38:07It is a no limits platform built for developers, and we think you should try it out. Go to fly.io to learn more. Launch your app in five minutes. Too easy. Once again, fly.io. And I'm also here with Kyle Carberry, co-founder and CTO at Coder.com. And they pair well with fly.io. Coder is an open source cloud development environment, a CDE. You can host this in your cloud or on premise. So Kyle, walk me through the process. A CDE lets developers put their development environment in the cloud. Walk me through the process. They get an invite from their platform team to join their coder instance. They got to sign in, set up their keys, set up their code editor.

38:51How's it work? Step one for them, we try to make it remarkably easy for the dev. We never gate any features ever for the developer. They'll click that link that their platform team sends out. They'll sign in with OIDC or Google, and they'll really just press one button to create a development environment. Now that might provision like a Kubernetes pod or an AWS VM. You know, we'll show the user what's provisioned, but they don't really have to care. From that point, you'll see a couple buttons appear to open the editors that you're used to, like VS Code Desktop or, you know, VS Code through the web.

39:23Or you can install our CLI. Through our CLI, you really just log into Coder and we take care of everything for you. When you SSH into a workspace, you don't have to worry about keys. It really just kind of like beautifully, magically works in the background for you and connects you to your workspace. We actually connect peer-to-peer as well. You know, if the Coder server goes down for a second because of an upgrade, you don't have to worry about disconnects. And we always get you the lowest latency possible. One of our core values is we'll never be slower than SSH, period, full stop. And so we connect you peer-to-peer directly to the workspace.

39:51So it feels just as native as it possibly could. Very cool. Thank you, Kyle. Well, friends, it might be time to consider a cloud development environment, a CDE, and open source is awesome, and Coder is fully open source. You can go to coder.com right now, install Coder open source, start a premium trial, or get a demo. For me, my first step, I installed it on my Proxmox box and played with it. It was so cool. I loved it. Again, coder.com, that's C-O-D-E-R dot com.

40:26i understand the networks out there wanting to contain subcontain and not like and deprioritize like i understand where that thought process comes from but at the same time like wow what if you just play to the strength of the people and the aggregators as you said, Dave, or just people who are happy to share where things came from. And like, wow, what a social network who embraces that, that embraces that. Like that's kind of Reddit in a way, like Reddit links to everything, right? You can go on there. And that's why Reddit kind of has stood the test of time. One slash you is great and slash R is great.

41:05Yeah. But at the same time, like you don't have these clashes. You have a lot of freedom in there. there's no to my knowledge no deprioritizing links out it's kind of like part of the game i will say that it's a challenging website to navigate sometime like it's it's hard to understand like where the content is it seems like it's not always for me as the reader or the consumer and i don't really like those kind of practices as a design team when you make those choices like let me confuse you by where the rest of this conversation actually is yes or anything thing like how do you continue this conversation happens frequently and then they went and destroyed all the third-party clients that made me very mad what's that one where there's like a bunch of people launch their product on it you know what i mean product hunt always had like a weird like get it button that you had to click or something it's just a link to what it is you're like what is get it it's like it often didn't work with the thing being launched it's not a thing to get really so i don't know what that is product hunt was never attracted to me it's just a regular guy looking for cool stuff it just like it felt so it always felt very promotery to the point where i just didn't really want to use it even though i saw it i remember the initial launch and people were using it i might i probably even have an account i do have an account every once in a while i get an email from them like hey somebody followed you on product on i'm like cool but it feels like promoters promoting the promoters what about uh launch weeks the next best thing after that comes launch weeks when you can't promote it and get attraction on product hunt you create your own week or month even yeah which has become you know the rage over the last i would say three-ish years but more so in the last two years concentrated it's a weird marketing vector like it's it's this word it's so hard to get attention we're gonna make a whole week of feature releases to just like we're just doing it it's going big you know like everything we're landing it all at the same time you know i'm i'm way more like let's do it like always be shipping always through the year like let's not do these big drops you know but i don't know there's got to be a reason around it you know i just want attention on what they're up to i mean i love shipping consistently but it is hard to get interest on what you're up to i remember when the app store first dropped and i used to read all the release notes of the apps that came out because i was a nerd and i was like These are cool.

43:29I want to see what's new in TweetBot or whatever it was. And over time, I'm like, I just can't care anymore, even with my favorite apps. Like, I'm just, I'm over it. So it's hard for development companies and firms to be like, hey, pay attention to us. Like, we got something we want to show you. It's not your standard bug fix or minor feature. Like, we got some big stuff and we want people to know about it because there's so many people shipping stuff all the time. Brings me to CodePen 2.0, Chris. I mean, you're trying to probably. bring some attention to that release, right? Yeah, it's a little early, but it's about time.

44:03I've never been in this position in my career, I don't think, where I have to pick the moment which you got to start the hype train. And that moment is like before it's fully shipped, you know, like I generally prefer the like, get it done and then just tell people and then they can use it. But I think that's probably not appropriate when you're trying to really build a bunch of enthusiasm and stuff. I think it's maybe just a smidge too early, but we're in alpha and the Alpha's in good shape as of recently. So if anybody listening really wants to check it out and wants to check it out with me, because that's how we're kind of defining Alpha for us, is that we do little kind of guided tours.

44:40You're still using the website and stuff, but I kind of want to watch you do it and talk about it and help find bugs and stuff. And then in the next couple weeks, I think, we'll be in beta, which is a little more open. Don't quote me on that. I don't know when this is going to ship exactly. it's better bet is just to email me chris at codepen.io and I'd love to show it to any developer but yeah I don't know you didn't ask me to do that why did I go off on that? No it's all good because we're talking about promotion. It's a natural motor Are you worried like developers aren't gonna fully understand the revolutionary DX and just paradigm shifting.

45:17It's all about speed baby. Yeah I mean you're you're shifting some paradigms and I love it it's very I've seen it so It's shifting tons of paradise. It is actually a little bit. It has its own compiler. So we're entering that market a little bit. Interesting. Not a little bit. The whole thing is kind of based on it. What's it compiling? Well, your code, really. TypeScript, I hope. Of course it does. But we're not trying to invent any new languages. We're just trying to invent a new way to combine technological choices like that. So if you want to write in TypeScript, which most people do these days, I've got to go.

45:54Yeah. Now I've come around on it. I don't know if I'm a TypeScript stan yet, but I... Dave literally allowed. Note for the audience, Dave is gone. He's wiping his lips. Sorry, I had to let my dogs out, but that was a perfect timing. It was good. That's tremendous. You do sometimes need to think about and figure out how it's going to work with your stack. Sometimes it needs to be configured. Sometimes it's on you to like, well, I guess I need to like have a TypeScript compiler to then or something. And I don't think anybody really like relishes that DevOps work, you know, like how is that going to work in our build process?

46:33I want to add something new to it. I'm compelled by, say, Lightning CSS or something, some new thing. You're like, well, does it work with Astro though? You know, like that's what I use to build a website. So where do I like slot it in? Am I going to find docs for that? Am I going to whatever? And it could be a lot of stuff. It's not just a combination of two technologies. It could be all kinds of different stuff. I want to, you know, as a developer, I kind of want to like push my cart through the aisles of technologies and be like, I'll have one of these and I'll have some web components and I'll have, I want to write them in TypeScript and style them with SAS and then build the site with 11D and all that stuff.

47:13Wouldn't that be fun? And, you know, our idea is that, like, yeah, for sure, you can do that. You literally just click some buttons and then we wire them up for you. But the way we're wiring them up isn't like we read the docs and build configurations for you. It's the compiler that comes up with a plan to build all these technologies where they don't really need to be wired together. So the idea is that, like, I don't know. if you need to configure something like Astro or whatever to work with TypeScript, I don't think you need to. I think it does it. But that's just as an example. But you wouldn't if the code wasn't TypeScript by the time Astro got around to compiling it.

47:56Like, let's say it was already JavaScript, then it doesn't matter. So, like, what if we dealt with your SAS first and then it was CSS by the time that the next technology needed to touch it, then you don't need to configure anything because it's already been boiled down to its primitive. We think we can do that with all technology. All technologies. Could you use that compiler outside of CodePen context? Yeah, absolutely. It probably won't be open source on day one, but only for time constraint, not because we're trying to keep it as proprietary technology. I would love to ship it. I'd love to just have it be on NPM and you just grab it, you know, and it kind of will need to be at some point when you...

48:33Yeah, I mean, that makes it way more valuable, I think, for both on and off CodePen. what's the name of it good question adam i don't know yet we have a bunch of really cool rupert rupert ai yeah we have i had an awesome name yeah rupert is actually yeah that's nice that's actually a pretty good ai name rupert i want i had what i thought was a name i was really gonna push for i was like oh this is sweet i really like it and then something shipped pretty notably in our very tight industry with a similar name and I was like, well, that's out. You can't wait too long. No, Jared. Why would you think that?

49:11Was it syntax? It's totally Bolt. Is it? I called it. That's how tight-knit it is. I guessed it on my first guest. It's a good name. It's like a little fast dog on the movie and stuff. But didn't Bolt have like a there was like a financial company called Bolt that kind of tarnished the name of Bolt. Yeah, they've come and gone probably. They have come and gone. It's a good name, but we'll come up with something good. But yeah, the compiler does need kind of its own name. Just going to sleep on it. Super Bolt. Double Bolt. Better than Bolt. Well, it has fun. It really is kind of a nice name. I mean, congratulations to them.

49:49That product is actually super duper cool. Yeah, it is cool. Bolt.new we're referring to if you want to check it out. Well, it has other connotations too. like you can bolt things together which is exactly what we're trying to do or bolt things on later. Maybe you could call it Lego. That might work. Just call it Lego. Yeah, yeah. You can Lego things together. They won't have any trouble with that at all. This product unavailable in Sweden. Yeah. Or anywhere else in which they have jurisdiction. Yeah. You got to spell it with all caps too. Exactly. And you can't pluralize it at all. Not that change the subject too deeply but Chris, you and I had a short conversation while at All Things Open.

50:26Yeah, we did. And I believe, if I recall correctly, you were telling me about something where you had written something fully and y 'all didn't ship it at all. What did in regards to Copen 2.0, like you had done something massive and you just didn't ship it. You spent a lot of time doing something. Am I incorrect on that? I'm trying to think. I feel like I've done that a number of times. But what would I have told you about? You said it was a big deal. It's like a. Like a rewrite? Thousands and thousands of dollars you spent doing something and it just didn't ship. Oh, that's right. You know what I bet it was?

50:58What was it? One time we were going to run a conference. That's right. We were going to do an event called CodePen World's Fair, and we had hired people, and we had done a bunch of custom design work and booked venues and really moved far along on it. And it just kind of, you know, there's lots of details involved, but it was kind of a cold feet situation. Like it didn't feel like it was going to come together in a way that we thought was going to really be as cool as we wanted. And I think throwing like an embarrassing conference can be detrimental to what you're trying to do. Yeah, totally. So we were willing to lose the money to not embarrass ourselves.

51:38I don't know what made us talk about that. We only talked for like 15 minutes at most. Well, we were at a conference. Yeah, you're probably talking about conferences. You were sharing all your secrets. I liked it. I was like, tell me more. Yeah, maybe. I don't know if I've ever really talked about that. But yeah, we had like the coolest website you've ever seen for. Because, you know, we're going to do it in Chicago. And Chicago had the, famously through the World's Fair at one time, the White City and all that stuff. Oh, yeah. The devil in the Windy City. Yeah. We're going to kind of play off that a bit.

52:06That's cool. But you can imagine, right? Like, oh, we're going to have, you know, we're going to have screens, you know, floor to ceiling. And we'll have the creators of some of the most amazing visual stuff on CodePen coming to do it. And we even had asked and had a bunch of yeses from those types of people. And they were going to build special exhibits for it and that kind of thing. And so sorry to those people. But I think we canceled it early enough that we didn't like waste people's time too madly. So you're not having to reveal, obviously, if there's embarrassing or specific details that matter.

52:38But like when what made you finally pull the plug on that stuff? Because that's a hard thing to do is actually just stop when you're so I mean, sunk cost fallacy is very strong. Like, was there a moment where you're like, you know what, we're not doing? Yeah. Well, we had three founders at the time. So it's a conversation. It was. And everybody kind of, I think we coalesced on it pretty quickly because there was some nervousness. And I think I was probably the most for it just because it was, that's kind of up my alley. You know, the other two guys aren't as, you know, conference forward as I am, you know.

53:10But, you know, I also didn't want to embarrass myself. I kind of don't remember all the exact details that made us think that. But, you know, the ambition, I think, was felt that's why I was OK with it. In the end, it felt like too high. You know, if you're like, we're going to, I don't know, spend, you know,$22 ,000 on this exhibit are like, we so sure. I don't actually know any of these people that say yes, that yes, I'm going to build a experiential virtual art exhibit on this thing. You know, like it's rolling the dice till the day of the conference. High risk. And how do they even practice doing it?

53:47You know, it's not like I can ship them. I don't know. There was too much like worry, I guess. I'd rather be in a position as a company because when we killed it, we said, hey, when we have money to burn as a company, let's do it. You know, but we just kind of didn't at the time. And if we burned that much money kind of for nothing, that would have been dangerous. Now, I don't know if any company has money to burn, especially these days. But in those days, it felt like it. You know, if you're MailChimp, they were setting money on fire for a while. And then it worked for them. Yeah, that's right.

54:19Mostly. Have you guys ever considered a shop talk conf? Yeah, I think it's come up. I don't know how serious we ever got. Yeah, it would probably just be like six people in a bar in Atlanta. You know. Sounds cool. But, you know, I don't, you know, it'd be fun. And I think it's just a, we, I think where we've enjoyed is occasionally, I don't know if y 'all have had this experience, but like a conference invites the podcast out to like put on an after show or something like that. Those have been great. Like we've met shop of maniacs from coast to coast there and it's been good times, but I think it's, you know, I think that's probably the better way for a podcast is just to be a bolt on to a, a funded conference.

55:05It's a lot less work. That's for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And you just provide entertainment, which, you know, I think I assume people listen to this for information or entertainment, you know? Yeah. We don't know why, honestly. We're still wondering. It's one of those two. People have to drive. That's kind of, you know, took a hit in the pandemic, but it's fun. We're coming back, baby. The key, though, is recording it. Right, Jared? Recording it. You do want to record when you put on a cool show. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Apropos of nothing, Adam brings that up. Yes. We're not throwing anybody under any sort of buses.

55:39But we did something really cool at a conference. And it just, you know, they admitted. And it's like, hey, this happens. But they. Just water under the bridge. I think it was actually their first time back post-pandemic too. So they had like a lower key AV team potentially. Yeah. Not that they were not capable. It was just like it was everybody was sort of like getting back into a groove. and uh we were in a slot where it's not normally recorded it's like an after party kind of slot highly entertaining as you could probably tell but great crowd great interaction we played a game show yeah yeah spectacular the best edition of our front end feud ever because it came down to the final answer nice and the final answer had the board was down to like four of the five i think it was firebird too firebird was the fun was it thunderbird thunderbird mozilla thunderbird was the answer.

56:28I can't remember what the question is. Something about email clients. Right. And it was like back and forth and they're all guessing these obscure email clients. And then somebody pulled out Mozilla Thunderbird for the win. Nice. And then I go up to the AV people afterwards and I'm like, that was great. When can I get it? And he's like, oh, I didn't know you guys want to record that. I still remember that conversation. We were, we were IRL entertainment recorded for a podcast. You guys wanted to record that? I'm like, well, why, why do you think I just did this big show yeah just for that's awful i'm sorry it's you remember thunderbird that they had an awesome story like a year or two ago where they you know people talk about funding open source stuff a lot in this industry you know yeah they had like too much money or something didn't they oh yeah it was it was wild because you know you see like stuff like veet and stuff do pretty good but for the most start open source stuff doesn't make that much money and you know and when veet doing good it's like oh we get you know there's like a hundred thousand dollars a month or i I don't know.

57:22Maybe that's even high for them. I forget what the exact numbers are. But all Thunderbird did was put like a little interstitial that's like, hey, we don't ask for money very much, but we could use your donations. And they just got buckets of money. So much money. Just millions of dollars just came in. You're like, holy cow. Wow. I guess a lot of people like their email client. Jeepers. Well, listeners, we don't often ask you for money.

57:47But just this once. It is the end of the year. It's patreon.com slash the underscore real underscore changelog. That's right. Oh. We have to see. Adam said that's right. Adam, that is not right. That is not true. Don't give that person money, okay, if that is a real person. You've got to clip that and make a killing. I just came up with two businesses in this podcast. Oh, that's good stuff. That's pretty good, yeah. I think you could do good. You know, I think at the time I was – well, we started this episode talking about, I don't know, making money on the internet and websites and whatnot. And that you always do.

58:23I'm sure in this show, people, if you're just listening, start to finish of this published episode out there, there's probably been a little interstitial already with like one of the two of you talking to some CTO or CEO of some company about some product or something. That's just kind of how y 'all roll, which I always really liked, you know, and wanted to steal that to some degree. Although I've so far, I found it hard to get people to agree to it. So really, you for enforcing the issue. That would be Adam. He's the one that organizes that whole side of what we do. It's pretty cool, but don't you think you could lift that and do it at a conference too?

58:57Be like, you could really reduce the, you know, I think it'd be easier to get a sponsor for a conference if you're like, would you like to come not only just sponsor it and like whatever, bring your t-shirts, but also sit on stage with me and talk to me about stuff? Could be done. Sometimes that's cringe. You gotta time box it, you know. Yeah. It's like, we're going to talk to the CEO of Revenue Dynamics at whatever. And you're like, oh, I'm out. I didn't realize this was happening. I'm out of the front row. I think the key there is it's got to be editorialized by the person conducting the interview.

59:32It cannot be editorialized or agreed to, or you can't share the questions in advance or give them insider secrets to what's being discussed. And they have to be, to some degree, willing, able, and somewhat vulnerable. I would say almost fully vulnerable. Yeah. That's hard to get anybody to agree to. Honestly. It is hard. Yeah. The title thing works. Like, I hate to say it to all the DevRels out there because, you know, God bless. You're doing good work. But like when they send the DevRel to do it, it's like, oh, yeah, they're doing the thing that they're literally paid to do. Whereas if you get the CTO or the CEO, it's like, oh, they really have made time specially to be here to do this.

1:00:10Yeah. That is not their normal thing. Yeah. Yeah, that's why I think the way we do some of the, we don't always get CEOs, but I would say 80 % of the time we get CEOs involved in these ad spots. That's why I think it works well, because when you get C-level or founder level agreement and participation in not so much shilling, but sharing the story. That's why I always think, this is your story. Let's share your story. Yeah. That's where you get the true quality. and the the the pass through right not the abrupt oh this is marketing you know I try to make it Trigger my fast forward figure as much.

1:01:08As much. Yeah. Now we still trigger it if you've heard that particular one. And obviously they're hard to produce. And so we don't have like a bunch of them per. Yeah. I mean, that's a challenge for us. So like sometimes you'll hear the same, the same one a few times and that's going to trigger you to fast forward, but that's fine. Cause like you've already heard it, right? Then you've heard it and that kind of thing. Yeah. Yeah. Once you get big enough, I, I, I saw it once or I think my wife pointed it out to me. She was, it was like a, whatever it was like a Malcolm Gladwell one or whatever.

1:01:32So his numbers are super high. And he would just sell them as like a block. I remember when, what's the new like cell phone speed technology? Like LTE5 or whatever it is. You know, like they're really, there's a keyword I'm flubbing on. 5G? I don't know. 5G, I guess that's what it is. Yeah, that was like, it's better than Wi-Fi kind of thing. And he had like the, whatever, the CTO of Sprint or something on to do just like a four block. But they were all four different. and it actually was kind of cool and they're like two minutes long or something like you do. But it was kind of like, what industries will it enable?

1:02:11There's a rural doctor that it's helping because they can use these technologies places that they couldn't before. And it was like a good ad spot. But because the numbers are so high, they only used it once. It's a one show. That's harder to do. And were they still interstitial in the other show or was it a standalone show that was just that? No, it was interstitial. Okay, cool. Yeah, I don't know. That's where we draw the line because we obviously have people who would love to just come on the show and pay to be on the show. Totally, we get that too. And we will just never do that. And we've had to say no to lots of opportunities because of that.

1:02:46I was going to say, I like the CEO ad spot because it is that middle ground of like, oh man, can my boss come on your show? Those emails are just so tiresome. You know, it's like you just hired a marketing company. You're blasting this out. Like you don't you just want to like a the SEO and then be the like, you know, the bullet point on some resume or whatever. Like we went on 10 ,000 podcasts. Like I just I like it's pay to play. But I think it is sort of this like, well, if you are a CEO, you care about the product. You like are committing your life. Maybe you're just in it for the money. But like you're doing this for a reason.

1:03:30And like, tell us why, like, why, what, what makes this thing good that you've made and you're selling, presumably you have money if you paid to be on the show. But like, so what are other people finding value in, you know, like it should be a slam dunk story, you know. You're selling it for us, Dave. I like it. Keep going. Well, I also, this is my grand thesis. To our own audience. Yeah. To podcast listeners. I think every podcast, I'm a podcast listener. I assume everyone here is just the same. But like, I still use products. I heard on podcasts in 2006. 100%. Like there is something about how podcasts go into straight into your ear holes or in your car ears and just, they make you feel good.

1:04:13And so like there's apps I use, you know, I've tried out and stuff like that just purely because they sponsored a podcast. And I don't think anyone, I think everyone who listens to podcasts has had that experience. And so I just think of it as also like, I don't know. It's like advertising plus jet fuel. It's like back to this single ad converts way better. I think a podcast converts way better. How many mattresses do you guys own that came from a podcast? Oh, gosh. At least 50 % of our mattresses came from a podcast. You know? Gosh. Case closed. At least 50%. Maybe more. Who knows? Maybe more.

1:04:53I literally don't know how we found out about the other two. Yeah. Yeah. Could you imagine where, let's say, the CEO of Chevrolet or GMC, because those are sort of like the same product, or Ford, did a real - Let's do Jeep for no reason. No reason, just Jeep. Just Jeep. Yeah. He actually got fired. Is that right? Oh, okay. I was like, I don't know the reason. Well, could you imagine where they did a truly authentic ad spend in the way we produce CEO driven ad spots that truly spoke to an audience that wasn't here's the spin. Here's the thing. You know, here's how things actually work with, let's say, cars, for example, or anything else, even mattresses.

1:05:36Here's why the technology in this bed is revolutionary and it changes the way you sleep kind of thing. Yeah, that's cool. I could imagine that would be good. And it hopefully they live and breathe it. So it would be so easy for them to do. The only reason you couldn't is because they're busy running a company. Right. And they hire people to do that kind of thing. And they that's an acceptable reason in my book. Yeah, it is. Yeah. There's a certain size of company that this works well with. And I think Ford is bigger than that size, you know, where it's almost it's almost more important that it's somebody who's founder or just like living and breathing the company.

1:06:12During the lightning launch, though, it would have been relevant. like during a brand new product line, like the Lightning truck, that had been relevant. Not an everyday, hey. Oh yeah. And I'm not saying it's not relevant. I'm saying, is that the person you want to talk to necessarily? Well, I think that's where you get the authenticity. It's like if the CEO is in it to win it. Sure. They're, you know, one of the great candidates for it versus like who else would be listenable? I would imagine the org structure of Ford though is that there's some other person running the Lightning division and the CEO is like.

1:06:40Yeah, maybe the product designer or the product leader of Lightning. Yeah, I don't know if that's true or not, but I'm just saying there's certain sides where it's like the CEO has to be pretty abstracted away from some of the nitty gritty that interests us, like the thing that's actually going to nerd snipe you. And they may or may not have that. That's true. If it was for this podcast, maybe there's some, you know, the person who designed the user interface for the thing would be probably even more interesting to talk to. Absolutely. Potentially. Yeah. And the beauty is like, let the let the platform decide a little bit what's going to work.

1:07:12because I think when the, I'm sure you've seen these type of spots internally where it's like, you know, we have the CEO here to do real fireside chat stuff and it's just like too polished. You know, like they're trying to do it but they can't. Like they're too, they're too smooth internally. Right. It doesn't feel good. Yeah, they're so well trained that it just always sounds shilly. Yeah. Exactly. Always shill. Well, I don't even know how we got here but are you listening tech companies? Do this.

1:07:42What's up, friends? I'm here with a new friend of ours over at Assembly AI, founder and CEO Dylan Fox. Dylan, tell me about Universal One. This is the newest, most powerful speech AI model to date. He released this recently. Tell me more. So Universal One is our flagship industry leading model for speech to text and various other speech understanding tasks. So it's about a year long effort that really is the culmination of like the years that we've spent building infrastructure and tooling at Assembly to even train large scale speech AI models. It was trained on about 12 and a half million hours of voice data, multilingual, super wide range of domains and sources of audio data.

1:08:26So it's super robust model. We're seeing developers use it for extremely high accuracy, low cost, super fast speech to text and speech understanding tasks within their products, within automations, within workflows that they're building at their companies or within their products. OK, constantly updated speech AI models at your fingertips. Well, at your API fingertips, that is a good. Next step is to go to their playground. You can test out their models for free right there in the browser, or you can get started with a$50 credit at assemblyai.com slash practical AI. Again, that's assemblyai.com slash practical AI.

1:09:08What are you guys' ambitions with Shop Talk? What do you guys do it for? Why do you do it still? You've been going for a long time. What are your ambitions? Where would you like it to go, if anywhere? and what's exciting still about it for you two? Got to see where this long, slow decline goes. No. Dave, you're looking very contemplative. Yeah. No, Chris summed it up. No, I think, you know, we through like the whatever, the gully of advertising, the drought of advertising, we've actually switched to almost 100 % community funded through our Discord. and that's been really awesome. Like our Discord is really active, a lot of nice people in there, great, wonderful people, the best people.

1:09:54So the Shabba Maniacs have really rallied to kind of make the podcast happen over the last few years. I mean, Chris and I could obviously like chip some bucks at it, but just editing and stuff adds up, transcripts adds up. I don't think we're in the, we're just going to hand it to AI yet. I don't think that's even in our current plans, But, you know, so the costs kind of add up. But then, you know, I don't know. For me, it's just turned into a great chance to talk to my buddy Chris every week. So that's been like, you know, I'll keep doing that as long as I can, as long as he'll let me. But then, you know, but I also really love how we bring in experts who like know what they're doing about a certain thing that maybe I don't know as much about.

1:10:40And that's like benefited me numerous times in my career where I could say, oh, man, I just talked to the person who wrote that thing you're talking about. And here's what they said. But, you know, it's kind of a maybe a bit of a douchebag move, but it is like super useful to like talk with people and pick their brain about why something exists. Like, you know, we had the guy from Google, Thomas Steiner from Google, who does like the AI in Chrome thing. And that was super like, wow, this is kind of a weird new thing that's not documented very well. And so we got to talk to him about it. So, you know, stuff like that is.

1:11:20Yeah, it's like a bit of a cheat code for staying on top of the industry without too much work. I get to benefit from Dave's insights and people write in. It's not so much of a lift. We've made so many choices over the years. What's the easiest possible thing we can do to keep doing this show? We can have somebody else edit it. We cannot change the website very much. We can just stay on this host instead of change around. You know, like it's really it's to the point where we just throw Dave and I throw something on the calendar and we both show up in a Riverside room exactly like this. We use the same app and then I forget about it.

1:12:00Like our guy Chris Enns from Lemon Productions. Shout out Chris. Just he like logs into Riverside, extracts the audio, edits it all together, puts the MP3 on our host, goes into WordPress, gives the show a title, writes the links, all this. and then hits publish on the day that, or schedules it for the day it's supposed to be published. I literally do nothing, you know? I work with the advertisers when we have one, which is not very much these days because it's just has fallen through and I don't hustle for it because it's like, I just don't have the time for it at the moment. Even our transcript, Lady Tina Pham has access to the WordPress site.

1:12:36So when she's done with the transcript, she logs in, pastes it into the right text area and hits save on the show. Nice. No, I hear from nobody. The bill arrives in our email and I click the pay bill button and that's it. And so that's helped. Like it's not when I come up with things that I need to cut in my life to reduce stress. This is pretty low on the list because it doesn't impart much stress. It might even be a stress relief in a way. right feed you back gives you uh gives you a friend to connect with and a network to right to keep connected with i suppose you know to further connect and also i would imagine it's got to be great to give somebody who has less light shined on them a light shined on them you know give somebody the spotlight it's increasingly rare isn't it it is increasingly rare but there's still some out there i mean like you know like recently the departure monophone They don't need a lot of extra fanfare, but I thought that was a really cool show to do.

1:13:34It was about a pixelized font, a pixel-based font that was just super cool that I didn't really know of just loosely before the show. And now I'm a huge fan of the Partramana font. All the work they put into it to open source it as well. It was really cool. That's great. I think I missed that one. I would love to watch that. Dave and I have had some good shows like that in the last year for sure where like a tiny little spark turns into like, let's just see if we can get them, you know? Right. And we do. We've been chasing this idea of niche app builders, like somebody who builds an app for a really niche specific purpose.

1:14:10Blake Watson comes to mind. He has a disability that affects his muscle movement, but he builds a bunch of apps to just like make his day better or like, so him and his brother can play games and stuff like that. And it's like awesome. Like, and so it's just, he's like home cooked, not going to be super famous apps. We had the guy who wrote Cracking the Cryptic's Sudoku app. If you've seen that YouTube channel. Have you ever seen this YouTube channel? No. I fell into it for a long time. I still watch it to this day at night. What's it called? It's two British dudes cracking the cryptic. It may never grab you.

1:14:48So this is as niche as niche can be. It's 50-year-old men solving Sudoku on YouTube. they're just these really endearing British guys and they solve Sudoku puzzles, but they, it's like they're charming while they do it. And it really requires some big brain energy to get through these things. You know, you're watching them use like, like just the gears in their head, just churning to figure out what's going on in this puzzle because each puzzle is different. They, each one has different rules. When you say Sudoku, you think, you know, the numbers one through nine in the boxes or whatever. Once in a while, they'll do a classic Sudoku puzzle like that.

1:15:24But in this channel, they call it variant Sudoku. Each one has a bit of a different rule set. So they have to learn a new rule set and then churn through it. I find it helps me go to sleep, honestly. You know, like it's not so engaging that I, a little bit of that, although I don't get the tingles from this, but I do generally get the tingles, but I do like them. Anyway, it took a bit of programming to make this happen because having a Sudoku puzzle that can be like programmatically solved in a web browser and then it can tell you if you have the right answer or not required an app. It required somebody to build this app.

1:16:01But because each one has different rules, it's actually pretty weird and complicated. And the like community that it took to make this thing happen is just surprisingly complex story. And we had that guy on the show and he's about as quirky as a person can be you know and it ended up being an interesting show so the person that was from this YouTube channel came on nope no they're a little too big I don't think we can get the cracking the cryptic guys it's the could you imagine it's the developer who made the app that they use on the show yeah he was a personality in and of himself like he's like my god if I met Simon at a party I would drop dead I think he's so cool yeah I was gonna say this is a niche but it's also 621 ,000 subscribers niche.

1:16:45Yeah, it's a niche that hits, I'll say. Right. It's kind of deep. That's cool. I'm a fan of that too, like inviting out to your show that might not even be developer world necessarily. It's like developer adjacent. What comes to mind is recently I had Dennis E. Taylor. Are you all a fan of We Are Legion, We Are Bob, the Babaverse series? It's an audible audiobook series oh my gosh sounds up my alley so oh dave it's right up your alley bro i've seen your book list and it's it's so far up your alley you should have listened to this by now all right so i had dennis e taylor on this podcast and we just talked about the bub of our series and we obviously have a zulip now not a slack and so we have a community similar to discord with you all except we what did you call it a zillow zulip zulip zulip it's open source threaded team chat You hear the hard P at the end there?

1:17:39Zulip. Okay. Zulip. Okay. So we used to use Slack and now we're Zulip. And it's threaded conversation for teams, essentially. It's also open source, but we had Dennis on the show. We talked about the Bobaverse series. Now, Dennis is also a retired programmer. So there is at least that as a connection point, but it's also an amazing sci-fi series. Like this guy is, he's phenomenal with his writing. five books deep on the Bobaverse series you will have months of listening slash reading if you get into this if you're brand new to it and just talk to Dennis and that's cool we had heavy spoilers Paul from heavy spoilers on the podcast before we talked about Tenant the movie because Tenant was such a cool movie and this was not the main show what was that at the time was it?

1:18:30We called that show Backstage which was kind of a precursor to change log and friends which was kind of just like us talking about what we want to and not feeling like we have to do an interview with a software developer every single episode and that plus like some of the stuff we do at jsparty and all these other things came together to create our friday talk show which you all are currently on right now that's right and so that was on backstage it makes me think about like it was probably a good show just because you're so passionate and you it's a story that you wanted to tell and a person you wanted to talk to and i'm sure everyone enjoyed it just for that reason alone you know even if they had no idea who they were it's uncovered a plethora of baba verse series fans and would-be fans inside of our community oh nice and so like now we have this new connection point in our community not just like oh what language or whatever this or that it's now the connection point of similarity and likes with sci-fi and plausible science fiction and this whole conversation around baba verse and authoring books and stuff like that what's that series of books where like they live on the back of a turtle or something.

1:19:32Moana? No. Spoilers. No, I'm just, no, the, um, anyway, there was, it was something like, there's like a book called like nights, nights, nights. Somebody's going to know what it is. But anyway, Terry something is the author. I was like out at a bar after a conference with like Jason Langsdorf and his partner and some other people, maybe Sarah draston was there and they just started talking about this book series which is like 55 books deep and i just was like i've never heard of this but they're all like oh yeah did you remember what you would call it like the you know book 23 blah blah blah and i just it was 23 yeah it was like anyway i'll let me terry disc world disc world yes world there you go terry pratchett yeah anyway there's a like it's a 150 something books or something i don't even know but then like and i just you know i stumbled into a group where everyone had read it but me and i felt like so out of place but it was like but it's just it's cool when you stumble into that you know you're just like dude these people love this this is weird like this is cool this makes it so much cooler this is people i like yeah you should chase it you know i think that's that's okay a podcast.

1:20:48I used to get salty when like Radiolab would do an episode about politics or something. You'd be like, you're the science show. But it's like, no, they're just chasing something that they found interesting, you know, or 99 % Invisible did something outside of design and architecture or whatever. But I've loosened up my stance on it. You know, just chase it. Do what you want to do. We definitely don't do it on the monthly. It's more like whenever it might come up or if it really makes sense. Like I plan to have a chef on the podcast in 2025. My favorite. One of my favorite chefs. Only because I cook alongside him.

1:21:26Frank Proto is his name, by the way. When you say alongside him. Literally side by side, Jared. I'm just kidding. No. No, he's on YouTube and you're cooking, right? Yeah, well, I think I saw what I liked about it. It's this series from Epicurious. And it's like something, something 101. And it's like this hard recipe. It could be as simple as scrambled eggs. like scrambled eggs 101 how to make the best scrambled eggs how to make the best chicken how the easiest way to fry chicken kind of thing like you pick your thing that you think is kind of like generally hard or you've never really mastered it or it takes multiple steps and this chef and it's frank and many other chefs on epicurious this channel on youtube breaking down you know pasta 101 how to like really get the best pasta what the steps are how much salt to put in the water how much water to put you know obviously in the pot you know at what point you put it in And, you know, things just little little subtle things.

1:22:17Are you going to make like heavy handed metaphors for programming stuff? No. Well, I mean, probably not. Maybe. I mean, probably not. I probably just focus on the cooking. But yeah, are you going to draw across anything at all? Or is it going to just be, you know what? I like your cooking channel, dude. I think it was more like, could you get more people that are audience curious to cook? OK. Like things that are generally seemingly hard. Maybe you subscribe to Factor because you're on a podcast. And that's easy. Cause you just get it and put it in the microwave. That's where they send you the meal, right?

1:22:48Yeah. This is where they like send you a non frozen, you know, freshly cooked meal. This is not an ad by the way, but we have been sponsored by them before. And so it's fresh on my mind on how that works. But like, you know, I enjoy first principles cooking like personally. So I feel like, you know, the, the full episode idea hasn't percolated in terms of like what it's going to be, but I know I'm going to talk to Frank cause he said yes. And we'll just talk about cooking. And it could be as simple as like, Hey, hey, I'm a chef and anybody can do these kinds of things. If you just break it down to simplistic forms, like step-by-step, you know, keep it simple one-on-one style.

1:23:22Yeah. I mean, I don't know. Like, especially developers, most of us live like a sedentary lifestyle, you know, like a lot of us are in our twenties, not me, no one here in this chat room, but you know, whatever, excuse, we're aging out, excuse young, I think, but like, you know, in the, in the, in the words of Chris got to see where this long slow decline goes yeah yeah but like I remember being in my 20s I didn't know nothing about food it was like if I made a bowl of spaghetti it was a freaking miracle like how'd that happen you know I mean like you know so I was like an idiot about food you know even just like you know you're talking to a room of like developers like you know probably not notoriously good at self-care so like what uh what's the first thing they need to know about you know making food now you make me think we have to get that who's that military guy who like runs forever oh yeah jacqueline

1:24:22what's his name adam tow trucks with his mouth i know his name so it's it's like right on the top he's like you know the hardest working man in the world he like destroyed his own body chris Goggins? Goggins. Something Goggins. Anyways. Not Chris. Somebody on here to like, you know, motivate all of us to exercise or something. Dave Goggins. David Goggins. Gee, see? There you go. Chris or Dave. Pick a name. He's outside of our league. He's like Chris's Simon and who's Simon's partner on the Sudoku side? Mark. Simon and Mark. We can never get David Goggins. He'd be like, why would I go on a developer podcast?

1:24:55Let me pitch you this. A fake David Goggins. Okay. David Ruppens. And And he's a motivational speaker. I know he's very famous on the circuit, you know, and he comes and talks to everybody. How long could he stay in character? Oh, well, so he's getting old out here. Two minutes really is kind of the match. It'll be a short episode. It's a short show. I'd be down. But that's all the inspiration you need from David, what'd I call him? Rupin's. Rupin's. To be motivated for a whole life, you know. Just two minutes with David Ruppens. Did you really read all these books in 2024, Dave? Yes, sir. Yeah.

1:25:3848 books thus far. Yeah. I'm in the book a week club, been in there for a few years now. You know, it, it looks like a miracle, but it's not, it's really ADHD. Like I can't do, I reward myself by doing the dishes with the podcast or a audio book. And so that's how it happens. So is it mostly audio books or you mostly audio books? I used to read a lot of paper or Kindle books, but there'll be a lot of graphic novels in there too, which are generally paper. But I used to read a lot of paper or Kindle books, but I trained my brain to do that before bed. So I read one page and fall asleep. That's how I Pavlov'd myself into that.

1:26:22So audiobooks I'm pretty successful with. Nice. Nice. Do you rock the 2X? Oh, for sure, man. Oh, God. Yeah. in a week right oh yeah i'm not a normie when it comes to and listen to podcasts holy cow do you guys make a lot of dishes then you must i don't know how man i don't know i i i every day of my life i ask my kids how many cups should a family of four use in a single day and they're like i don't know four and i'm like yeah uh why are there 23 right here so and then i had this whole revelation the other day i'll share it with y 'all you know the story of sisyphus we always use that like analogy of like rolling the boulder up the hill i didn't we recently got stone plates and that analogy hit so hard they're heavy no we literally take these stone plates like earthware plates down and then i wash them and then i put them back up and then they come down And I just was like, this is, I am Sisyphus.

1:27:25I, uh, the morality story is true. I just, uh, you know, spend the rest of my life. It's a whole different podcast to have that conversation, Dave, but okay. I like it. What kind of podcast is it? A negative podcast. Like where life just repeats. Oh yeah. It is. I am just in a, uh, a groundhog's day of pushing these boulders up into my kitchen cabinet. I watched this yesterday. Yeah. I put that back yesterday and here it is again, dirty, needing my attention. Thankfully, I have this book. My favorite is when we go out, like we were gone or like, and then we even went out for dinner and there's still a huge pile of dishes to wash.

1:28:05How did that happen? Where did they come from? Who's in charge of these dishes? Here's a phrase I uttered this morning at my children and I love my children to death, but I uttered this phrase. Why do you guys suck so bad? That's hard. That's maybe on the harsher edge. They pushed me. They pushed me to that by not – they didn't run the dishes before bed. Like that's like one of the things is like somebody starts the dishwasher. We talk about – it's a button press. You just press the button. Oh, man. You're on a higher level than me. I'm like, if you see trash, throw away trash. If you make trash, also throw away trash.

1:28:44That's where I – Oh, yeah. We got that going as well. Oh, my God. I stepped over a piece of trash yesterday and I got it. Oh, man. oh who gave it to you don't don't do that so we have this thing around my house trash on the counter so much so that i've developed a song trash on the counter trash in the street yeah it's just it's just my song sing that whenever you see trash is that a ccr song i'll bust yeah it's like that it's it's it's like that yeah i'll bust it out because like i have to find joy in this repeating oh my gosh who did this again so you don't yell why do you guys suck so bad No.

1:29:21Yeah, you got to have something else to say. I'm going to start singing that. I need a song the next time the dishes haven't been cleaned, you know? It's like, you know, the cutting of the edge of a bag that you have to open up to take the thing out. It's like that thing is now on the counter or this other thing. And I'm blaming nobody. My wife listens to this podcast here and there, at least the clips. This may be a clip. Who knows? I'm going to clip this part and send it to her. And I'm not talking trash about anybody in my house, but like, OMG. And I do it too, though. So I'm part of the trash on the counter community.

1:29:50I will make this offense. Okay, so you're part of the problem, as is Chris, who clearly just stepped over some trash. I am the problem. Yes. I didn't mean to be throwing anybody under the bus but myself here. You made that clear, Chris. I think you've acquitted yourself. Yeah. Kids' socks are a problem. My socks. Well, that's a lifestyle.

1:30:14I'm done with these socks to the corner. Yeah. Good stuff. Always like, why are these socks right here? That's where I put them. That's why they're there. That's where I put them. Well, I think we've experienced now the long, slow decline. Anybody listening to this part is like, is there any more good stuff in this show? And the answer is no. No, we've plung the depths. Apply your software development methodology to this conversation somehow. You know, refactoring. I don't know. Cleanliness. But if they have time, I do have a plus plus topic. Okay. do you guys have time for one more just for our closest friends sure hate it adam should we say bye friends first bye friends bye friends well it's always good to podcast with your friends and what better friends than chris and dave long-time podcasters long-time friends first time on changelog and friends that's awesome yes there's a bonus that means if you're a changelog plus plus subscriber.

1:31:17It's better. You can enjoy an extended version of this conversation. And all you have to do is go to changelog.com slash plus plus. Yes, it's better. 10 bucks a month, a hundred bucks a year, drop the ads, get closer to that cool changelog metal bonus content, directly support us, free stickers in the mail. And of course, a generous thank you. So thank you. Once again, changelaw.com slash plus plus. I do want to mention something new from us, something coming in 2025. There's a big change. I'll link to a blog post. But I want to mention CPU.fm. Long story short, the Change Law Podcast Universe, a.k.a.

1:32:00CPU.fm, is extending to a whole new network of world-class developer pods from your friends and extended friends at Changelog. Launching in 2025. CPU.fm. Get notified when we launch. Go there now. Of course, we couldn't do this without awesome sponsors and partners. Sentry, Fly, Coder, Assembly, AI. Check them out. Sentry.io. Use our code Changelog and get$100 off the team plan. So cool. And our friends at Fly. Fly.io. That is the home of changelaw.com and to our friends over at Coder, Coder.com, pairs well with Fly, and Assembly AI, assemblyai.com. To the beat freak in residence, those beats are banging.

1:32:51Thank you, Brake Master Cylinder. You are awesome. Okay, if you're a Change Law Plus Plus member, stay tuned. If not, hey, we still love you. But this is it. The show's done. All right, we'll see you on Monday.

1:33:20This is almost interview. Dave, you could chime in here, but I think you're, I don't know if you have this vantage point, considering I don't think you're part of CodePen. Oh, it's a CodePen question? It is a CodePen question. So have you ever been, Chris, have you ever been dribble curious? because code pens are a lot like dribbles, you know? And you can go and explore code pens, but it's not quite the way you can explore dribble to find a designer. Well, that's a great question. Not only curious, but jealous in some ways. We even were, remember the two original founders were Dan Cederholm and Rich Thornet.

1:33:55Rich worked with us at CodePen for a while post-dribbble. Is that right? To like apply some dribble magic to a few things. And it wasn't as clear as like we should just do what we should do.