SO much to dig into (Friends)

33:07Like I do not want to watch a video that's been dragged out to 10 minutes on purpose because 10 minutes is the perfect length of a video. But really the content should be 90 seconds in order to get one thing out of it that I'm looking for or to learn something new. I'm less likely to do that than I am a blog post that I can scan quickly and look at some pictures and then decide if I want to dive deeper. Not saying I don't do that with YouTube. I'm just less likely to. yeah but i think that calculus has flipped as you go down the age brackets thankfully i mean i'm surprised not really but kind of surprised stack overflow is so high i don't know if they maybe because it's the echo chamber it makes sense for it to be so high sure i think they bust out the echo chamber it's going to be drastically lower than that i am happy yeah i mean it's it's really wild to see github and youtube compete such a uniquely different platform yeah i wouldn't even put those in the same category no but they compete i guess they're both social so there you go right i mean where else can you go in the world where you can self-publish for the most part without any real censorship I mean there's obviously copyright There is some censorship TMCA There is definitely I would say socially acceptable censorship Some socially unacceptable censorship When it comes around politics But we're not talking about politics generally in this podcast And generally around software development Generally I mean it becomes political at some point Yeah I think most coding channels Don't have any issue with that kind of stuff Yeah Yeah.

34:53So, I mean, for the most part, you have an unfettered ability to publish. Yes. Video, you know, as well as you want to or as poor as you want to. So, I think with that kind of platform, it makes sense to me to see that be so high. And thankfully, chaptering. So, for me, I'm with you in the way you responded, except for if I find a 10-minute video and it doesn't have chapters, I'm bailing. Sure. If it does have chapters, and I think that, and I don't know how to describe this litmus test I go through, but for some reason, there's this way to discern as a human, whether something is good or bad or for me or against me.

35:35So in that reptilian brain version of Adam, when he's watching YouTube videos, he's thinking about that. Chapters are good. No chapters are bad. Yeah. so chapters are a must for me and if if it's a 10 minute video and i think well this probably took about two or three minutes to explain i'll look for the chapter the chapters that go past the intro or the who i am and why i do what i want i appreciate all that i'm a diehard fan i want to hear that's how i became a fan of techno tim you know timothy stewart he's a friend of ours now yeah uh i was a watcher like everybody else but then i became a friend i said hey let's talk on a podcast let's be friends and we're friends now i will still watch his stuff and i'll i'll go past the preamble and he's cool with that why because we're friends i don't need the i'm tim or techno tim this is where i came from this is my context no just take me right to the true naz don't fail what how do i configure it scenario and thankfully he's of the chaptering mindset where he chapters so i'm like youtube must have chapters if there are any length of video whatsoever for me to get my attention unless it's like golf content i'll watch that i'll watch that 45 minutes straight no problem i mean i waste a lot of time when they're watching golf content especially if you need a power nap so speaking of chapters we got some props dude we got some props in Denver from a listener who attended the live show for our chapters which was nice because you know we do those with love we do those because yes we are now chapter snobs but we don't always know if other people are we know that some people like them we've heard some things but it's always nice to have reinforcement learning of hey i love your guys's chapters they're so on point he's like i he turns his nose up at people that don't have them on their podcast now now that he's learned you know the better way and him and i had some camaraderie around that so yeah can't remember his name right now he was the fellow who gave us a hiking recommendation i can picture your face Jim?

37:35Was it Jim? No, it wasn't Jim. Okay. Maybe it was. I don't know. We met a lot of people. Here's a couple of shout outs. Names I do remember. So at the meetup on Friday night, there were three, I think, randos that came. And very cool. We say that with love, right? Can you explain just the randos with love just for those who are not getting that insider joke? First of all, randos is part of one of our Change Dog and Friends theme songs. Adam and Jared and some of the rando because we usually have a third or sometimes a fourth, although today was just the two of us. And so that got worked into a BMC song that we play sometimes on our show.

38:14And then we also invited a bunch of Denver locals to the show, people who aren't necessarily listeners. And so some of them came, some of them didn't. It's not easy to get outside your comfort zone and go to a meetup of a bunch of software podcasters on a Friday night, having not knowing nobody. Like they didn't even know the show. Some of these guys until like the day of, we didn't have signage where they just show up. We had nothing. We told people, hopefully you'll find us. You said, if, if you can't find us, just start asking people if they listen to the change like podcast, it's not really helpful advice.

38:49Um, and yet they did like, that was very cool. It takes guts. So shout out to Aaron, Randy, and Pedro. And I think Trevor, although he might be a listener. I think Trevor's a listener. Those three aren't even listeners. Maybe they are now, but they just came out and hung out and they came to the show. I thought that was pretty cool. It takes guts to do that. And so we appreciate it. I think they had fun. So I think it was worth the, uh, worth the discomfort. Yeah. Uh, yeah, I, I agree with that. It was names from Friday night. I don't remember any of them. So good, good job for you. Remember Randy, Aaron and Pedro?

39:27Probably, but not by name. I'm so sorry. No offense, obviously. That's why there's two of us. I am it's easy for me to get overwhelmed in public facing scenarios because I feel so much pressure to give my full love I would say I'm a giver you know it takes a lot out of me I'm not an extrovert I'm an introvert that that gets depleted through social interaction not invigorated I will say though I was riding a high so there's a part of that that's not true I do get fueled, but I also get equally depleted.

40:23well friends i'm here with a brand new friend of mine cal galbraith co-founder and ceo of depot dot dev. Your builds don't have to be slow. You know that, right? Build faster, waste less time, accelerate Docker image builds, GitHub action builds, and so much more. So Kyle, we're in the hallway at our favorite tech conference and we're talking. How do you describe Depot to me? And Depot is a build acceleration platform. The reason we went and built it is because we got so fed up and annoyed with slow builds for Docker image builds, GitHub action runners. And so we're relentlessly focused on accelerating builds.

40:57Today, we can make a container image build up to 40 times faster. We can make a GitHub Action Runner up to 10 times faster. We just rolled out Depot Cache. We essentially bring all of the cache architecture that backs both GitHub Actions and our container image build product. And we open it up to other build tools like Bazel and Turbo Repo, SC Cache, Radel, things like that. So now we're starting to accelerate more generic types of builds and make those three to five times faster as well. And so in simple terms, the way you can think about Depot is it's a build acceleration platform to save you hundreds of hours of build time per week.

41:34No matter whether that's build time that happens locally, that's build time that happens in a CI environment. We fundamentally believe that the future we want to build is a future where builds are effectively near instant, no matter what the build is. We want to get there by effectively rethinking what a build is and turn this paradigm on its head and say, hey, a build can actually be fast and consistently fast all the time. If we build out the compute and the services around that build to actually make it fast and prioritize performance as a top level entity rather than an afterthought. Yes. Okay, friends.

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42:43Well, let's change our focus to some technology here, still avoiding the AI topic. And let's talk Python. So one of the things they had is this admired and desired question where they asked people about certain tags, meaning like stack overflow tags. So technologies usually or concepts represented by a tag that the respondents desired or admired. And the distinction, I have to go read it again because I didn't totally. It's like admired. OK, I'll read their words to better gauge hype versus reality. We created a visualization that shows the distance between the proportion of respondents who want to use a technology that's desired.

43:33So you desire to use it. And the proportion of users that have used the same technology in the past year and want to continue using it, that's admired. Did you track that? I'm tracking it. So I can be like desired rust, but I had never really used it. So I can't admire it because that would require use. That's how they're separating the hype cycle. Okay. Because I could be hyped about it. It's a connection to the hype, essentially. Yeah. It's making hype real. Yeah, exactly. And from that said, I want to talk about UV. UV is a Python package manager built in Rust. And it's the most admired stack overflow tag this year.

44:17UV. Have you heard of UV, Adam? I have not heard of UV. Okay. In this context. no but in other contexts yes you know ultraviolet yes all right so i haven't used uv so i guess i desire it more than we do desire it we think the way you install python packages is weird exactly we know that yeah so this is why i'm excited because this has been a long-standing bugaboo you know for the python community is like and for the community that has to use python because they're trying to do other stuff and python is so prevalent right it's like package management is weird requirements.txt, et cetera, like the weirdness of that.

44:57Pip and the other stuff. We did a whole show with our friend Brett Cannon just telling us how to do it right because it's weird. And UV is a relatively new technology. That's a better Python package manager by Charlie Marsh. Charlie Marsh, a developer who's building Astral, which is high performance tools for Python in Rust. of which UV is one. And he's one, oh, let's see what I did there. The hearts of many Stack Overflow respondents and just developers in general. People really love UV. It's solving their problem. And did you know this, Adam? Charlie will be on the podcast in September. So he's coming up.

45:45He's going to be joining us. That'll be fun. I didn't know that. Yeah. So there's a teaser in there. I'm excited about that. But yeah, 74%, the most admired. I mean, he's beating out large language models. He's beating out Tailwind. He's beating out Delphi. Yeah. Wow, well, a lot of people probably don't know what Delphi is. He's beating out Polars. I don't even know what Polars is. Even Ollama. He's beating them all, man. Charlie Marsh and UV winning. Winning. so there's obviously the context of uv but i think just this spectrum of um desire and admire i think that's a really interesting measure because we that's hype and hype and reality right hype versus reality is what that essentially stands for my brain yeah because desired is kind of the hype and then admired means like no you're actually using it you still like it right yeah you just think you're gonna like it and you tried it and you're using you're like okay this is actually this was what they said it would be and i agree i'm going to keep using this thing so going back to your desire for stack overflow to remain this is a reason why i would want it to remain i don't know where we can get this data otherwise maybe the lms will expose this to us and maybe with a much larger larger and maybe potentially more accurate data set but this kind of range here alone from the desired admired is cool it is cool yeah i mean this is signal versus noise is what we've tried to produce since our inception, which was open sources moving fast.

47:25There's so much happening out there. What's worth your attention has always been our thesis of content. And I like this, obviously, thank you for getting him on and September and all that good stuff, because we get to examine, you know, this desire versus scenario and what exactly is happening there. But it's a cool measure. It is a very cool measure. And it seems like UV itself has grown as a way of solving the Python problem. Python continues to grow. So in the programming, scripting, and markup languages section, Python capturing almost 58 % of all respondents using it. behind only SQL. Yeah.

48:16HTML, which is, of course. Yeah, databases, and then the web. So HTML, CSS. And number two is 62%. And then, of course, JavaScript, which has eaten the world and continues to, is used by 66 % of respondents. I assume that includes TypeScript. Since I don't see TypeScript as its own category. Good job, surveyors. Some surveys are actually split those into two. It's there, 43%. Yeah, under Bash. Yeah, see, that's weird. It blended in. It did blend in. Well, if you add those two together, that's pretty tremendous. Yeah, it's huge. So if you add JavaScript and TypeScript, you're at 100%. Now, some of those people are using TypeScript, but they also answered yes on JavaScript.

49:03Because they know. I mean, everybody pretty much knows. Or somebody only answered JavaScript because they thought it meant both. Exactly. And then later they saw TypeScript and they're like, oh, I should mark that one too. Someone needs to fix this bug. They need to be like, make a category called like TypeScript, not JavaScript. I don't know. JavaScript, not TypeScript. I don't know. Anyways. So you can have that separation. Yeah. So Python though, saw a 7 % point increase over 2024 to 2025. That's a lot. that's a pretty big increase especially for a language that's been around for like 30 years right scroll down to the number of people who submitted to this one i can't see it in my view okay so 31 700 responded to this question which is 64 of the total respondents of the whole survey you know i don't know about you but i feel like the web is kind of default we should keep measuring of course but i'm not surprised it's up there at the top because what else do you choose and there is no other choice besides HTML, CSS, and then obviously JavaScript.

50:13So I feel like those are naturally going to be at the top. So Python kind of is the true number one. Aside from SQL, which is more and more understanding of databases, which totally makes sense as we move into the next era of all the things. Databases have always been there, but they've been super prominent as companies, open source, et cetera, for the last decade. But Python has been steadily growing year after year. And I think that that trend is actually shows up in another question about web frameworks and technologies. Because on that one, we have Node.js at number one with 48.7 % React, number two, 44.7%.

51:04Then jQuery, number three. Hello, jQuery. Hello, darkness, my old friend. But the interesting rise here is FastAPI, which is a Python-based web framework, has had a five-point increase over the last year. So this is a significant shift up for FastAPI, which I had previously not heard of until maybe like six months ago. And that's because people are building more Python stuff with APIs and MCP and that kind of thing. Right, they're not having to worry about the interface. The interface is somewhere else. It's the conduit of the data that they're trying to engineer around. Yeah. So Python continues to grow despite being dominant.

51:51Pretty cool. Pretty accomplished. What else? What else is interesting here? Do we broach the AI tooling topic or do we just continue to avoid it for now? I just live in the world, man. I just do what I got to do. If I have to talk about it, I do. If I don't, then I don't. I'm cool with it. All right, well, let's start with an anecdote because I feel like we've been very bullish of late, maybe because I have been more bullish of late than I was. I've had the ability to also be bullish because I've already been bullish. Now you are too, so I can pile on. Yes. And I've been singing Claude Code's praises quite a bit.

52:35Very good. And here's a story. So I think it was last show, after we quit recording with Nick Neesey, we had just talked for a long time about my new Claude Code habit and how much Nick is using it, et cetera, et cetera. Ultra Think, if you recall that conversation. I tried that recently. Did it work? I mean, I got a result. I was happy with it. I want to think that my UltraThink exclamation point had something to do with it. I don't know, though. So after that conversation, we're hanging out with Nick in the post show. And we're talking about CPU.fm coming soon. We now have a design. We haven't been completely dragging our feet, just sort of dragging our feet.

53:20But we're making progress. And we're telling Nick that it's time for me to take the design, which is in Figma, and put it into our Rails application so we can get the sucker out there. And I said, Nick, I don't want to write any code. Remember this, Adam? I think I told both of you guys. How can I do this without writing a single line of code? I was very hyped. And Nick said, well, there's a Figma MCP server. And so you turn that on and you point Cloud Code at your design file or your project. and then you tell it to turn that into a web page well that's what i did this morning i turned it on only it wouldn't turn on because i needed to first upgrade our plan because figment needs to make money and so we went from starter free to pro 20 bucks a month for me 20 bucks a month for you spoiler we'll be turning this off soon yeah one month trial i hate those annual plans the required i know they get you because it's like 16 and you're like i don't want to spend 900 right now so i went with the monthly 20 bucks a month i had to turn us both on because we still we both actively use it and that allowed me to get inside of figma and turn on the mcp server this is my first mcp server people so here's my experience and I went to Claude Code and I said hey can you use the Figma MCP server and Claude was like no I don't know how to do that and so I taught it how to do that and then I said basically that take this design and put it into this Rails index with Tailwind and the first thing I said is I can't do that because it requires way too many tokens And so instead of like, instead of reading the entire, because it's like the whole webpage is one Figma project.

55:23And I pointed at the entire thing at first. And I said, instead of that, I'm going to take a picture of it. And then I'll ingest the picture. And then I'll reproduce the picture. And I said, okay, fine. Good for you. Go do it. Go do it. Well, however you do what you do, do it. It goes away. It probably takes like 45 seconds, maybe a minute. I don't know. Yeah. And it writes a new Rails view. and all the CSS or the Tailwind classes or whatever, whatever, whatever. And it like triumphantly declares success. Now he says, reload that page and see what you think. It was complete dog trash, dude. It was like a child.

56:02It was like a, you take like a Picasso because this is a high fidelity comp. You've seen it. Like we've seen it. Like this is a very nice website. It's like taking a child and saying, hey, can you reproduce that Picasso for me? You know, in the next 45 seconds. And then they draw stick figures and stuff. and like present it to you and it's your kid so you have to be nice and be like oh it looks good such a great effort i see what you did here this is so bad dude it was so bad yes i was so disappointed and then i was like well okay at least it had the structure though like it had the sections it was like the content of the sections was really bad so i'm like okay that's a start how about now and maybe it's because it took a picture so i said okay there's there it is Now let's focus in on like the hero section.

56:44Now we've just limited the scope and I went and selected that in Figma. So it uses like the currently selected object or whatever. I said, now that we have the framework, I want you to focus on the hero section. Don't take a picture, like actually use what Figma gives you and just reproduce that pixel for pixel. I can't remember what I said, something like that. Like make it look exactly like the Figma thing. and it went away and it did its thing and it had a checklist and it checked everything off and it declared victory and like, go check it out. It was like lipstick on dog trash, dude. It was just terrible.

57:25So I'm disappointed and I'm like, dang, I'm going to have to code this thing, aren't I? Oh my gosh. So that leads us to Stack Overflow conclusion. 66 % of developers are frustrated with AI solutions that are almost right they're almost right yeah but that makes them wrong can we dig into the yes we can some some details there well not the question your experience oh my experience yeah of course i do want to go to the graph yeah sure go ahead ask away okay so i'm unfamiliar with this so did it let you are you able to say using tailwind or using you know class-based utilities use tailwind i already had tailwind set up in the rails app so all i had to do is like use it and so yes i said using tailwind which it did like if you go look at the html it has all the tailwind classes but where it really falls down is like it's not like we have like the cpu logo you know and it's not gonna go like take that asset out of figma and put it into a web page in any sort of way which is what i'm gonna do like that's what you're gonna do right like you're gonna say okay here's a logo however what's the best way to get it in no it just like reproduces it in html with like it's like a circle and it says cpu it's like literally a circle like a red circle or blue i don't know what color could you have then said or for assets like that, don't use that.

58:55Just put a standard known size for a future SVG logo replacement. I probably could. Give me the framework, the bones, and I'll fill it in with the good stuff. I probably could, and there is a blog post out on Anthropix's site, like how best to use this thing, or maybe not on Anthropix, on Figma's website about how best to use it. And I think, yeah, I mean, I'm not reading that. I'm not reading that. I don't really, I don't have the patience. I'm going on my own, man. I got this. I'm frustrated that I'm moving on. Like I'm back where I was with Gemini when it wrote that crappy function. When I was like, no, this function sucks.

59:38That's why I'm like, this front end sucks. Now I got to decide, am I going to rip it all out and start fresh? Or am I going to use like at least the skeleton it has in place? I don't know. I stopped right there because we need to record this. So I stopped working on it. But it brought me back to earth a little bit. from where I was, which was cloud nine because cloud code had impressed me so many times. But when it comes to this, I mean, this is for me going to be the bomb diggity is like Figma design to HTML, like to like pixel perfect. Yeah. Responsive, et cetera, et cetera. Like optimized. That's going to save people so much time and money.

1:00:18Like I will love that fee. I was very hopeful that this would work. I'm also not willing to like continue to try it though, you know, and maybe that's me. I'm just frustrated and going back to my old ways on this particular, I'm waiting. I'll try it again later, but the stuff that you're saying, like, could you tell it to do this, that or the other thing? Probably, but I just don't think I have the patience for that. Cause what if it doesn't work? And now I've just wasted more time. I got my early indicator is it's not going to get to the fidelity that we want. And there's no, there, there, like it's, it's not going to cross the chasm.

1:00:53with current tools so yeah i think for like a random landing page that you want to get i mean maybe that's even a bad example like where starter yeah you want to you want something with good bones now what you can do it is cool because you can like it's plugged into it now so you can say like and i haven't tried this yet but they tell me you can say this like take all of the colors out of that figma file and like use those whenever you're doing any sort of component creation or something like you can have it use the colors maybe like copy rate gradients or the exact radius for rounded recs and stuff or for rounded corners and that's cool as like a little bit of a a shim but it's not going to just take a figma design and turn it into a web page which the world wants the world wants that feature what is v.0 doing then with uh for sales thing how is that i mean is it focused on components versus bigger picture is that why you think is maybe more used and maybe more popular because it's like getting to a component result versus a full-on painting you know make the tree nicer not make the whole painting nicer yeah maybe they also and i don't know v0 personally like a little bob rosh joke by the way that's a that's very happy i should have said happy little tree yeah i don't want to give you the shout out uh the ack reference acknowledged um i think a lot of those are using that one component library that shah cdn or shadi i don't know what it's called it's the worst name ever you know i'm talking about no is it called shoddy no shoddy would be cool it's like shah cdn or i'm sorry i was just saying like calling shoddy but like the slang version shoddy it's your birthday uh this one dcn shad cn what what do people call this thing anyways this is a very popular thing it's by versell i think it's not by versell i should say that differently i think versell is hired the person that built this i think it's named after the person so the person's name is shah dcn or shad cn and they built this component library my assumption is chinese that's the cn maybe maybe just a guess or it's very popular 91 000 stars on github and so a lot of these coded from scratch vibe coding tools like v0 are just using this and they're all components like you said and so they can just use this and it will look like this and for your startups you know first version or whatever it's good enough but they're not going to take an existing design and build it out unless that design is like wireframes they're not going to take something that like a designer did and turn that into a web page that's like still the world of front-enders you know right yeah that's where i thought maybe that's where my question came from was if you're using Tailwind, Tailwind has a lot of really well-known components out there.

1:04:00My assumption is that a lot of the, you know, wrapping dibs you got to do and the various utility classes you've got to use to get to these layouts is pretty well-known. And so I thought, well, it would be smart enough to think like that, but clearly it's not because it's, I mean, what do we expect? We're expecting a machine to do both the thinking and the art in the same motion. And I think even as a human, I have a hard time doing that. Like, not that I'm better than these LLMs, but we're the original art creators. And I'm using me because I'm the best example I know of because I know me. Right?

1:04:37Yeah. It's hard to do both the thinking and the artistic side. That's why you have a left and right brain analogy for human beings. Like, well, I'm more right brain prone or left brain prone kind of thing. I think about it like that. Like, we're asking it to do potentially in the moment way too much. like technical code and visual design. It's a lot. Sort of. I think that, so our designer, John Henry, if you go read the Figma file, like that project, he has embedded a lot of the thinking into Figma. So there are - So good layers and stuff. There's layers, there's groupings, everything's logical.

1:05:17Like there's a structure in there that doesn't, that has been thought through. and so I feel like a machine could be able to do that could be like okay I'm going to take this and I'm not sure what it is over there in Figma I think it's probably like all bunch of SVGs but whatever this tree structure that I'm getting from the MCP server that has all the information in it somewhere I'm going to translate that into HTML and CSS I think we can get there without very much thinking now there are like on the specific like details like how do I implement this picture should this be a PNG should it be a SVG should it be a this that the other thing should I use some sort of CSS based animations and stuff like yeah that might be a step beyond but I think a static representation of a Figma project in HTML I think that's possible and so that's kind of what I was expecting Now, maybe the skeleton and the bones are there and I'm just getting too stuck up on how they're too caught up.

1:06:22I don't feel very stuck up about this, but I do feel caught up on how bad it looks and how like when it did try to do a thing, I was like, you know, not good, dude. Not good. But when I go back and look at what it has done, which I haven't done, I just stopped so we record. Maybe, like I said, maybe the bones are good. Maybe the structure is good. Maybe I can just build from there and not have to throw it all away. But just trying to provide, you know, some color around my previously always bullish the last couple of weeks stance. AI tool frustrations. Yep. So people are kind of frustrated or frustrated.

1:07:0066 % quote AI solutions that are almost right but are wrong. And then people are also frustrated with debugging AI generated code and saying it's more time consuming than human generated code. Maybe not a great analogy, but this is what's coming to mind in the moment. Imagine you go and you rent a car, right? And you get there and you stay in line, you prepay, you consider the insurance, whatever you got to do. And you get in the car and it doesn't go. It's not a car. It just looks like a car. it's not a car i thought i rode a car or excited right right like that's yeah almost the real thing is like worse than not even close because right it's like you are bamboozled right bamboozled is very accurate yeah it's not a car this is come on yeah you know yeah can i get the car please i want the actual website not the thing that looks like a website you know well and even going back to the the dinosaur era of this which was psd to html yeah and for those who don't know what psds are gosh you live in a cool world this is a good analogy actually though because there was similar frustrations i'm not sure if you're going there kind of yeah okay go ahead yeah finish your thought and then i'll mostly just there was this uh this idea is i as a designer can do really cool stuff i can make it very cool looking but somebody else has got to turn this into a real website and that's the the hard part and you kind of want this pixel perfection then you almost demand it and the website kind of sucks from a braille standpoint when it comes to mobile or not mobile which is a whole different era mobile first was post psd to html right and so you got all these anomalies along the way that could happen that sure it looks like it but it doesn't function the way it should yeah and even then you had more layers because you had the designer right pun is that a pun yeah nice the designer with their photoshop layers that's right and they have pixel perfect perfection in their photoshop file right that's what they want on the web page and they know they're not going to get it, but they hope they get close.

1:09:24Then you have the PSD to HTML shop or person. A lot of times you'll just send this to a shop. They'll send it back, right? There's even companies that would do this for you. It's big business. And you would spend a couple thousand dollars maybe. I don't know. Yeah. 1200 bucks. A finite amount of money. Yeah. And you'd send the PSD file out and you get back HTML and CSS. And that might look pretty stinking close to that file. Or maybe not. There'll be little things wrong. And then you have the developer who's implementing that into the site. And they go open those HTML files. And it's like div chaos.

1:10:01And it's like incredibly brittle and hard to work with and terribly coded. Like somehow they managed to make it look almost like the website design. But it was like unusable trash when it came to the code quality. Or break constantly as you changed it. Yeah, exactly. with it you added too much text here broke the whole website right they're like space stuff with like the ampersand nbsp the actual break tag yes lots of break tags lots of uh ampersand nbsbs with that non-breaking space that's right the invisible space like if i do seven of these it'll push that thing over far enough you know and you're like yeah but that was just once you could have put css and would apply to every single element but instead you have seven nbsps 14 times yeah every time so those are the bad old days so i don't know we're definitely better off than that are you seeing front enders have a future then for a little bit for the next few years heyday maybe i think they're not going anywhere in the in the short term yeah i think so i do think just like everybody their job will be evolving but until you can hook these things up directly to figma and say codify this and it just does at that point i think front enders will be looking for something else to do with their time which would be great because it's just a huge huge waste of time.

1:11:36I mean, it's not like a waste, like you shouldn't be good at it. It's just like, it's an implementation detail of a bigger project that nobody really wants to have to do. You know, like if it were easy, nobody'd be like, nah, I'm going to do this anyways. Right. They just, they'd just be done. And there's lots of people trying to solve that problem. Like the Nordcraft folks, like Figma themselves. Like what if we could just take the designer and the developer and make them work together on the same thing. So there is no translation step. Like people are trying to solve that problem. Anyways, vibe coding, not really a thing.

1:12:15Stack Overflow says most respondents are not vibe coding. 72.2 % in fact. It is burgeoning and it's not their core audience. So of the folks, we already identified who has accounts, right? And it wasn't a large majority of the survey respondents had accounts. uh yes and most of them had accounts for 15 a long time at least six years right a lot of them so it makes sense to me the vibe coding is not represented it's not true totally totally it's true amongst that group though my favorite part about this one is you can answer no which 72 percent did and you can answer no emphatically which means like not only am i not doing it but i despise the fact that you asked me about this thing and five percent of people said no emphatically of 26 000 people that's a pretty huge percentage i mean yeah what's the number there 21 percent would be 260 right yeah do the math 1200 maybe uh 13 ish yeah almost 1400 yeah that's rounded that's and so what was the question again they were out they were saying no to vibe okay is vibe coding something you do in your professional development work yeah i'm not excited about vibe coding personally but i can see see there's there's so many, like all things, they exist on a spectrum, right?

1:13:48Vibe coding is not somebody who doesn't know how to write software speaking into a microphone and getting software out. That's one, that's the, I would probably say the status quo, what people think it is, but it's also, you can vibe code a certain feature, a certain thing, you know, and not have to be like a full on green code base from zero to one. It's more like, well, just add a feature. I don't know. I'm not, I'm not personally vibe coding and you tried at least front end wise. Well, I do vibe code scripts basically. So I just tell cloud code to write a script that does a thing. And as long as the script works, I don't look at it.

1:14:32Right. So in this case, that's, and that's what I mean by the spectrum is like, yeah, does that, are those folks just upset that you even asked them and they're saying no, and then no emphatically. Yeah. Or is it a true no? Like, is it the human existing the future? Obviously, that 1300 or so on the emphatically, that makes a lot more sense. It's more like, I don't vibe code, and I'm never going to vibe code, so leave me alone. Yeah. That's how I read it, at least. All right. Well, anything else that jumped out to you? Obviously, there's way more on this survey. We're not here to be comprehensive or anything that we want to talk about before we say goodbye.

1:15:10I think there's obvious ones around here. as I scroll it, look at where things jump out. Like Claude Sonnet is the most admired AI model. And I assume they're doing the desire versus admired spectrum there, which is cool. So we look at Claude Sonnet. It was 33 % desired. And that's of 26 ,000 respondents. And it was pretty high on the gosh, it's really hard to navigate this going back and forth. The admired is the red one. So 67.5 % admired. I had the data in front of me. I was scrolled perfectly and now I'm not. So I can't answer my question anymore. But it was pretty high. It was pretty high.

1:15:52There was a lot of folks liking it a lot. I would say make this thing easier to dig into and not lose your place and not have to, you know, open a new tab just to kind of keep the place. But that's me asking for a lot. some AI probably vibe this randomly fast it's pretty good I mean it's not perfect but I think there was humanity involved well I think one thing that's clear is that you know obviously AI is getting better and better and I think for now there's a lot of really good use and provided your I guess provided you're patient with you know having to maintain ai slop or generate ai slop i think the the folks doing that are the ones who could not originally do software development anyways or they're being told by companies you've got to do this because everyone here is a developer now right we heard that at build everyone's a developer everyone's a builder and i kind of agree with that to a certain point but i mean an engineer is an engineer i don't care how you slice it, an engineer can make something from zero to one with docs and their own gumption and their own abilities and not get stuck behind a poorly vibed solution that didn't work.

1:17:19They will find the path forward and they will deliver it. Whereas everyone else is more like trying to leverage it and getting poor results. Well, the hype is there. for some it's real for others it's a dream and others it's a nightmare for others it's an absolute nightmare emphatically yes emphatically so I am not surprised that VS Code is still at the top good for them they've earned that yeah the one that surprised me from that was actually not that VS Code is the top used IDE but that Visual Studio was number two and notepad third notepad plus plus it's better is that your version of it's better i love that i've never heard that before i just want you to do it again i just did that on the fly there yeah notepad plus plus 27.4 percent of 26 000 people so what that's telling me is that there's a lot of Windows users taking this.

1:18:27Right? Yeah. It's the number three most used dev IDE. It beats Vim. It beats Cursor. It beats NeoVim, of course. It destroys Xcode. It destroys Zed. It makes Wins are broke. Yeah, I mean... Like a piker. Zed is 7.3 % of respondents. Not bad for a newish editor. still not beaten sublime 10.5 percent which was our original marching orders two years ago i feel like zed at seven is respectable until you see clod code at 9.7 because that's existed for like six months you know and it goes back to our conversation with nathan sobo when you asked him if he's been working on the wrong thing or would you ask him he got passed up something like that yeah it was something like that like uh because he's building from scratch you know yeah and i really hope that that bet pays off and it pays off if the ide doesn't die which trending is trending down the idea is trending down i think it'll be a long slow decline if it actually goes that trending down is a long slope yeah when you're so high there's so much that's all yeah but it is trending down i mean so even so far as that who did i speak to recently and i asked them how much code they're writing they were on stage with nora yeah she said none yeah and then somebody else that's a different example yes i agree with that contextually different example and they asked somebody else like how much code you're writing they're like oh i won't tell you their name but it's somebody we both know and they're at a very they should be in the FAANG list in the acronym but they're not so very prominent company.

1:20:24It should be in the FAANG. Zero. Writing zero the code. And what role are they? I can't tell you too much. I would give them away. They should be writing code. They previously wrote code up until a year ago when they didn't have to anymore. And so now they don't have to. And so document driven, documentation driven, theory driven, architectural driven you know things like that that's driving the code there's still ai is checking that code which you know i'm not going to toot a sponsor's horn too much but i'm a big fan of code rabbit mainly because they offer what they do to open source for free so if you're running open source out there today and you've got ai spam coming into your prs you can curb it with them and also get some intelligence, but I think that's pretty cool.

1:21:13But there's ways around the slop that isn't me, human, discern the slop, fix the slop. It's AI, fixing AI, which I'm not sure is a good thing, but the trend towards IDE dying for the people I'm talking to, and I think you too, is that the IDE is just going away for them and they're writing less and less code. That could be a two-year streak, and they were like, nope, we were wrong for two years, and they're back to writing code. Yeah. And the ID is well alive again. So it could be a failed two-year or multi-year experiment. But for now, the ID is dying. Steve, Yegi. Like Steve said, like he predicted.

1:21:55And that less code is getting written as a result. Less code is getting written by them. It's getting written by not. Less code is being typed into an editor. Right. No one's hand coding the code anymore. They're vibing. Now you said no one and you just went beyond trending. You're like, no one is? No one? Come on. It's a trend. It's not an absolute. Yep. All right. Well, no one is talking anymore, or at least will be shortly, because that's it, man. That's all we got for this week. All right. Bye, friends. Bye, friends. All right. That's what we have for you this week. Next week, we'll bring you our awesome interview with Nora Jones and our live Kaizen 20 and Pipely launch from Denver.

1:22:45Stay tuned for that. In the meantime, maybe dig into Stack Overflow's survey results for yourself and see what you can uncover. If you do find something or if you have any feedback on what we covered in this episode, let us know in our community Zulip chat. Sign up for$0 at changelog.com slash community and let your voice be heard. Thanks again to our partners at Fly.io and to our sponsors of this episode. Auth0, start building at Auth0.com slash AI. And Depot, 10x faster builds at Depot.dev. Have yourself a great weekend. Share a changelog with a friend or three who might dig it. And let's talk again real soon.

1:23:44Game on!