State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)

27:57And either way, go check out Royal Tenenbaums. Good movie. I've never watched that movie, I have to confess. Do you like Wes Anderson? Maybe. Okay. What kind of movies has he directed? Royal Tenenbaums. Okay. That's a good one. Well, I guess we'll find out. Bottle Rocket, Fantastic Mr. Fox, The Life Aquatic with Steve Sisu. This is all from memory? Yeah, I'm a fan. I'm a Wes Anderson fan. Wow, I'm proud of you. You're welcome. Let you quickly LLM'd yourself or something. No, I'm just going from memory. Wes Anderson. He has a very specific style, a very specific taste, and all the same characters like Owen Wilson, Luke Wilson, Bill Murray, Angelica Houston, like these people, Jason Schwartzman.

28:38he has all the same actors in his George Clooney in his movies all the time and I just watched fantastic Mr. Fox with my family a few weeks back and that movie completely holds up I just utterly enjoyed it I'm gonna have to I'm not the circle back so I I resisted the real the royal tenenbaums I thought it looked maybe strange also 2001 wasn't a year I was watching a lot of movies it is strange it takes a specific taste i think you either you either love wes anderson movies or you hate them because they're shot in a specific way in fact adam lissagore here's another foreshadow and i were talking about how i felt like his commercials like a lot of the sandwich films were borrowing prompts not prompts but homages to wes anderson he's like yeah totally wow he shoots in a very he has his choreography it's amazing but it's also like very opinionated and specific and so if you don't like that style and the humor is very subdued and somewhat intellectual and so it's not like a a tommy boy you know it's like it gets funnier the more you think about it when the first time you hear it like this is ridiculous like it's just so stupid so i'm not saying that you'll necessarily love royal tenenbaums but if you watch it it's well made so you at least appreciate the craft and if you enjoy it there's a whole bunch of movies waiting for just like it yeah our versions of it i do recall the grand budapest hotel being promoted yeah was that a good one that's a good one it's not my favorite i think tenenbaums is a more approachable movie to start with okay fantastic mr fox because it is animated okay great music by the way it's very approachable kid friendly yes we watched it with our whole family there are a few things that are like adult things but they just fly right over the kid's head it's not like the whole movie's like that but there are moments where you're like hmm this is kind of mature but the kids just don't notice it this isn't the best place to go for this but it's one of the places I go to it but if I want to know if I can trust this for my kid I do use IMDB's section where it talks about parental spots it's like it's like as you scroll the profile page for a movie title there's a section that talks about the different things that appear in the movie specifically for parents to you know gauge whether they should or should not like nudity violence etc yeah there's also like specific websites that are watching one that i don't know if it's good anymore but used to be good was called kids in mind and they actually watch and review movies with kids in mind and they will tell you almost to an extreme level where they're like every single thing that happens that might be something you might want to know about prior to the kids watching it and so in the past i have used that i know there's other ones do you recall the uh a female in the movie being called the town tart in her youth yeah okay they highlighted that as sex immunity right which is cool it's called the parental guide she's the town tart she's the town tart that goes right over their head doesn't it they're like what's a tart why is it why would the town have a tart like pop tarts what are they talking about Yeah, sure.

31:51Pop Tarts are sweet. All right, so anyways, we could have just created an entire tangent around something Andrew wasn't referring to, but if you were indeed referring to a quote from Royal Tenenbaums, reference acknowledged. All right, here is Andrew's Breakmaster Cylinder remix. Hey, Jared and Adam, thanks for another year ruining Silicon Valley. Big thanks to Adam for giving me the push I needed to also ruin Silicon Valley. Oh my gosh. Anyway, here's my message to everyone listening. Silicon Valley. also an apology i'm sorry for my message to everyone listening i feel responsible and you should so many so many dings well i told bmc you literally can't have enough dings literally cannot so yeah i mean in a sense maybe we have ruined silicon valley but also maybe i don't think so in a sense we brought it back yeah i think we've we've been responsible for a lot of HBO subscriptions.

32:48I think so. We should get an HBO Max affiliate code or something. We really should. Every time you stream that, there should be a royalty. Like an Adam and Jared royalty. I would just take a 4K version of the entire series. You don't have that? They didn't shoot in 4K? Well, if you recall, Christina Warren, if you recall, she and I, or at least she was, and we were both lamenting, at least I was lamenting this, these studios purposefully withhold the higher resolution versions on disc. They make you subscribe to the service to get the higher resolution. So there's lots of Seinfeld even, I believe, in like DVD quality.

33:27Like, come on, for real? Yes. Not even Blu-ray quality, DVD quality. You're about to get Rage Monster out. Let's not do this. Tone it down, hold still. Yes. It's supposed to be a happy time, you know, state of the law. It is supposed to be a happy time. but uh i don't believe that we've break mess of cylinder we did not ruin silicon valley thank you for the dings no andrew o 'brien ruined it he feels responsible did he actually say that this is an actual voicemail though i don't think he did did he no he said that you caused him to go watch silicon valley right and then bmc remixed his words that's right yeah that's what i mean that's what you sign up for around here it's a remix you know we're gonna hijack what you say and make you say something different i mean pretty much don mckinnon just told a story about how he got arrested at system diminishing headquarters, you know?

34:11And he doesn't agree with Adam. I don't think that really happened. No, I don't believe that happened at all. Let's hope not. We'll have to confirm. Silicon Valley.

34:23Well, friends, this is the last chance you have to get the 8sleep Pod 4 Ultra in your hands in your bedroom before Christmas. Go to 8sleep.com slash changelog and use the code changelog if you need to to get$350 dollars off your very own pod for ultra i've never had better sleep i love this thing i sleep on it every single night my wife and i we absolutely love what it does for our sleep so what exactly is the pod imagine a high-tech mattress cover that you can easily add to any bed this isn't just any cover though it's packed with sensors heating and cooling elements it's all controlled by sophisticated ai algorithms and it's all designed to give you better sleep it's like having a sleep lab, a smart thermostat, and a personal sleep coach all rolled into a single device and no wearables required.

35:15It uses a network of sensors to track a wide variety of biometrics while you sleep, sleep stages, heart rate variability, that's so important, respiratory rate, temperature, and so much more. The best part, it does all this without you having to wear any devices. Again, no wearables. And the accuracy rivals what you would get in a professional sleep lab. The pod uses precision temperature control to regulate your body's sleep cycles. It can cool you down to a chilly 55 degrees Fahrenheit or warm you up to 110 Fahrenheit. And it does this separately for each side of the bed. This means that you and your partner can each have your own ideal sleep temperature going on.

35:55And the really, really cool part is the pod uses AI and machine learning to learn how you sleep, to learn your sleep patterns over time. And it uses this data to automatically adjust the temperature of your bed throughout the night to fine tune how you sleep, to give you more REM sleep, to give you deeper sleep. And that's the part I love most. And all this functionality is accessible through their awesome mobile app. You get detailed sleep analytics, trends over time, and even a daily sleep fitness score. Again, go to 8sleep.com slash changelog. Use our code changelog. Get$350 off your very own Pod 4 Ultra.

36:32Do it now. Sleep up for Christmas. Again, 8sleep.com slash changelog. And also by our friends over at Wix, I've got just 30 seconds to tell you about Wix Studio, the web platform for freelancers, agencies, and enterprises. So here are a few things you can do in 30 seconds or less on Studio. Number one, integrate, extend, and write custom scripts in a VS Code-based IDE. Two, leverage zero setup dev, test, and production environments. Three, ship faster with an AI code assistant. And four, work with Wix headless APIs on any tech stack. Wix Studio is for devs who build websites, sell apps, go headless, or manage clients.

37:17Well, my time is up, but the list keeps going on. Step into Wix Studio and see for yourself. go to wix.com slash studio once again wix.com slash studio

37:31all right next up an old voice Jarvis Yang I think Jarvis calls in every year and gives us shout outs but also gives other people shout outs and this is no different here Jarvis is going to shout out us as well as somebody else here he is Nia Zhong Changelog, that's hello and mong. As the year comes to a close, I wanted to give a big shout out to both the ShipIt podcast and Prime Digital Academy. When I started diving into DevOps, ShipIt became my go-to resource. Gerhard, Adam, and Jared, you've all taught me so much and it had a huge impact on my journey. Thank you for everything. I also want to recognize Prime Digital Academy, which, after 10 incredible years, is closing its doors.

38:15Prime was where my second career in software development began, and it helped me through some of the toughest times in my life. Gave me an amazing supportive community and lifelong connections. A special shout out to my at Bash cohort, ooh ha ha, and of course, to Mary and Christy. Thank you for being such inspiring mentors. It's bittersweet to say goodbye to both Prime and the Ship It podcast, but the impact you've made will stay with me and so many others. Thank you for being such a big part of my journey. There's an obvious thing here, right? I mean, are you going to say that? Go ahead. What is Prime Digital Academy?

38:54First time hearing about this, did I miss something? No, this was a bootcamp that Jarvis went to. Okay. And just like last year, Jarvis shouted out, I think it was like Minnesota Gophers or something. Like he likes to give shout outs. And so he gives Shippet a shout out and then he gives Prime Digital Academy, which is a software engineering boot camp that helped Jarvis launch his career. And it's closing down after 10 years. And so there's some alignment there with Shippet being retired now. I see. There, there's your connection. Oh, okay. That makes more sense. I thought we were getting credit where credit was not due or conflation.

39:30And I was like, what is going on here? I'm down. I'm on the webpage, primeacademy.io, by the way. They're in the mix of the IOs that may get repurposed. We'll see. And I'm on the about page and I'm like, meet our team. I'm like, I don't know any of these people. Where is the connection? Please help me. So anyways, that's it. So Jarvis then sent me this note in addition to the audio submission. Glad to hear that ShipIt is getting its spinoff and looking forward to more of the dynamic duo, Justin and Autumn. So yes, Ship It will have a continuity, will have a continuation as a different pod called F-A-F-O, fork around and find out.

40:08And then he says for context, Oohaha, which you heard him say Oohaha. Yeah, I did say it. Was his cohort's call out on campus. So they would say that to each other. And so he's giving them a call out. Okay. All right. Can I share a call out that I used to do back in the day? Ruha? No, this is going to be epic. Okay, I like it. This is going to be epic. This should be clip. V-I-C-T-O-R, Victor. V-I-C-T-O-R, Victor. You mess with the best you dialed the rest. Victor what? Victor what? Wow. That's not my best rendition, but it's a pretty good one. Say more. The context. I was in the military, of course.

40:49And the military is an alphabet, A through Z, just like anybody else. But V is Victor. So when you do the phonetic alphabet, at least the military version of it. Alpha, Bravo. Alpha, Bravo, Charlie, Delta, Echo, all the things, you know, Foxtrot, all through V, which is Victor. And so I was in Victor Company. And so every company is charged with creating their own thing to kind of get the hype. Kind of like this ooh-ha-ha thing, except for that one's shorter, right? Yeah. And so it was Victor Company, V-I-C-T-O-R. love it yeah you should send that to your old victor company colleagues what do you call them colleagues uh troops i guess soldiers yeah your fellow soldiers yeah fellow soldiers but the uh you mess with the best you down like the rest victor what victor what is the the clincher love it all right jarvis remixed ooh ha ha

41:53The year comes to a close. I've had a huge impact on my journey. The toughest times in my life. Me and Mace have worked through me. My long connection. And such inspiring. Bittersweet to say goodbye. and you've made me stay with me and so many others so

42:39there you go i don't know about you but i've got my scalp massager out and I'm thoroughly, just thoroughly just relaxed. I was going to say, it reminds me of like, you're about to get hypnotized. And they're like, you are floating off into sleep. Yes. There are no problems in your life. You are weightless as you float on a cloud. Yeah. Well, you know, even BMC has a softer side. Yeah. I dig it. And so does Jarvis. Yeah. I dig it. All right. We move onward and upward. Here's Brett Cannon. Hi, Adam and Jared. Congratulations again. Another banger of a year for the changelog. For my highlights of 2024, the Cannon breakdown into themes.

43:22Probably the first theme was hardware. Episode 608 for interviews with building customizable ergonomic keyboards with Edward Zuckerman of ZSA. I thought that was really cool to hear their ethos and approach to making keyboards that last and can last for a long time. Interviews episode number 592 from Sun to Oxide with Brian Candrel was great just for the stories alone, also with what Oxide is trying to do with hardware. And then finally for hardware was interviews episode number 582, We Have a Right to Repair with Kyra Wains. I also say that's the most expensive episode for me personally because it led to me buying an iFixit repair kit.

43:58And it has actually been very helpful. So thank you, Adam, for that recommendation. The next theme is languages. No shock coming from me. Interviews episode number 611, Free Threaded Python with my friends Pablo and Lukasz from the Core.py podcast. It was obviously a lot of fun to hear someone else interview them for a change. And then also, Change Login to Fred's episode number 28, Gradually Typing Elixir, was kind of cool to hear Jose talk about how Elixir is trying to bring in typing after having seen how Python tried to pull it off. The third theme was Operating Systems. actually in ship at episode number 122 with Linux distros with Jorge Castro.

44:31It was kind of cool to hear how Universal Blue is trying to use containers to make operating systems a bit easier to work with from a Linux perspective. And then it was great to hear, let's talk FreeBSD finally from ChangeLog interviews number 574 with Alan Jude, because FreeBSD, I don't think it's enough play in the world. Theme number four was apps with ChangeLog and Friends episode 35 with the Obam Pros. It was cool to hear Shannon Parker-Solberg talk about how they make Obam Pro work as a business. And also, personally, it was kind of a fun episode because it was the first time I was out with an extended walk with my son by myself and trying to keep him calm with mom not around.

45:04And then there was also Why We Need Lady Bird, Change Log Interviews number 604 with Andreas Kling and Chris Winstroth and how trying to make browsers extremely hard. And then finally, the fifth theme is people. And that was from Change Log Interviews. So number 595 with Kelsey Hightower talking retired, but not tired and just hearing Kelsey seemingly having a great time, no longer being constrained by the corporate world and getting to do what he truly wants to do. Once again, congrats again for a wonderful 2024 and look forward to 2025. Bye. I'm thinking Brett just knocked out the rest of your list.

45:40Well, I was pumping my fist on several of them, but I have to say that I'm not batting 1 ,000 now. It's a shame. There was two or several that were not on my list, and I'm sad now. Well, he did pick 10 episodes, so, I mean, he's rivaling you in quantity. Yes, true. Can we talk about BSD, or at least free BSD? Can we, or did we? Can we briefly? Sure. So I got excited about that afterwards, and I share Brett's excitement too, But then I got sad because it seems like FreeBSD is just not getting the love because it's not the way I suppose Linux is. And there's the lack of support for certain things, and it's just hard.

46:22It's just hard to use. And so I think it gets – it has such good pure intentions, but it doesn't get the same love that Linux proper gets. It gets the same love in what way? What do you mean love? Well, obviously Linux is, you know, one over it is what I mean by that. but I think corporate love uh I think developer love you know really investment investment potentially but I believe I can't recall in this moment I'll have to go back in my links and find it but I believe earlier this year there was talking there was talk about how FreeBSD wasn't supporting certain things and they were falling by the wayside and essentially like it seemed to me like if I was reading the tea leaves like pay less attention to it because it's just eventually going to always be this super minority in the niche yeah yeah i mean you really got to want to feel the pain i suppose right or have already overcome the pain that's why the reputation and i brought that up i think on that episode yeah is that freebs at bsd people are generally more expert because they have to be and it's harder to use than linux not necessarily because it's more complicated or wrong or anything but just different and a smaller community so less helps less investment less support etc so sorry to hear that but there's certainly people who love and use it and build cool things with it that being said you should check it out i'm actually like on hackaday.com uh-huh on a post from this year and at the very end uh just scanning it it says free bsd is here to stay so don't take it from me i am not steeped in all the things i'm not right you just tried it you hit some some bumps yeah you saw some people saying it was not going to be supported for whatever you're up to and it's like precisely it's kind of just the harder path in some cases than the straight not the straight and narrow than the mainstream path i mean that being said i did spin up zfs i did get a file server running i did do all the things i intended to do do you remember where you got stuck i didn't get stuck i didn't actually have any issues with it personally but uh it was it was just this tension of what free bsd was supporting and what it wasn't supporting and how it was being supported and then you got true nas who moved away from free bsd to basically a debian you know version and they're deprecating they're sort of maintaining the FreeBSD flavor, but TrueNAS scale is the future of TrueNAS.

48:52Not that they're the litmus test of FreeBSD dying or not. It's just like, well, if the people making a file system and a server can't build their future on FreeBSD, then who can? Where does it really fit? And so that's what was making me think, well, maybe it's just not worth my... It's not that they can, it's that they chose a different way. Sure. Yeah. Fair enough. I had no problem with it. I loved it. It was actually kind of fun. Except it was limiting. you know to me at some point now do you recall brett's voicemail last year you probably just listened to it last night while you're going to sleep oh yeah andrea my wife andrea all right good all right here we go here's brett's remix from this year hi adam and jordan congratulations again another binger of the year for changelog for my highlights of 2024 break down the themes probably the first thing was hardware episode six or eight for interviews with building customizable ergonomic keyboards.

49:46Evan Zuckerman of CSA. I thought that was really cool to hear their ethos and approach to making keyboards that last and can last for a long time. Interviews episode number 5592 from Sun to Oxide with Brian Kendrell was great just for the stories alone. Also with what Oxide is trying to do with hardware. I'll also say I really enjoyed episode 558 with my wife Andrea. I want to give a shout out to my wife Andrea. Andrea. Gotta give a shout out to my wife, Andrea. Oh, man. So good. Where else would you get that kind of goodness in life? I'm telling you. I mean, you put your spoon in to that cup and you're coming out with goodness, okay?

50:31Yum, yum, yum. Okay, so I'm digging what Breakmaster's doing on the voices stuff. That's pretty cool. I want more of that in our life. Right. I feel like these are proving grounds for future coolness. I was also thinking not this voicemail remix, but the one prior. It'd be kind of cool to also release a companion podcast that's just the voicemails. Just like we did with the album. I don't know if that would fit or not, but I'm just thinking like as a condensed version, just listen to them all in continuity. It's like, there you go. Boom. Yeah, especially if we can't sleep at night. You and I could just listen to people call us.

51:04That's right. Say nice things about us. I feel bad about my life. Let me listen to this show. They love us. People like us. They really like us. That was a good one, Brett. I like that one a lot. Brett, thanks for liking so many of our episodes. I mean, I gave it a hard time because you picked 10. At least they were from this year. That's also a callback. And the fact that you like so many of our shows is kind of amazing, isn't it? I mean, I appreciate that. One in particular, if you don't mind. Go ahead. Pick one. Get into it. Change Log Interviews, episode 592, From Sun to Oxide. Epic. I thought he would pee himself.

51:42during the podcast. You thought Brian Cantrell was going to pee himself. I thought Brian would, well, he drank like three Diet Cokes or something like that, like during the podcast. When you say epic, you mean it literally in terms of length. Oh yeah, it was long. I think it was as long as I could maybe have ever gone. Probably our longest episode. I think so, honestly. That wasn't a, sometimes when we do anthologies, they get long, but single conversation. Yeah, let me just for. I could start by duration pretty easily. I do have a 153 minutes. That's two hours, 33 minutes. I do happen to have our database available to me.

52:20Okay. And I can query it for exactly. We have audio duration as a field. And I will say order by audio duration. Okay. So in terms of audio duration, if we take out the anthologies, which was Adam's brilliant idea. I hadn't thought of it. And limited to this year, the longest episode was From Sun to Oxide with Brian Cantrell. So yes, the longest episode of the year, except for Microsoft is all in on AI Part 2, which had three interviews on it. Now that's this year. Should I pull out this year and just see of all time? Let's see of all time now. Boom. 708 rows. This is from Interviews and Friends all time.

53:05And the longest episode of all time is From Sun to Oxide with Brian Cantrell. So there you go. Confirmed. Yeah. I mean, I thought he was going to burst. And the second longest that's not an anthology is From Chef to System Initiative, which we already covered. So. Right. These deep dives expect more like this, I think, next year. Adam going deep one-on-one. So deep. It's like founder's talk on the changelog. It's beautiful. It is beautiful. Some would say it's better. Especially when the ads are removed. Because it's even shorter. because it's long enough. Okay. Yes, truth. Moving on to our next voicemail.

53:45This is Nabil Suleiman. Hello, Adam and Jared. Congratulations on another great year. Really, so many of the episodes on the changelog are amazing, but really ones that have stuck out to me, especially just looking through the list of episodes this year, really anything with Kelsey Hightower or the Oxide folks have just been great episodes and I've really enjoyed them. I also really liked the Moneyball episode. It was just a nice exploration of entrepreneurship and software that doesn't necessarily have to be like a rocket ship startup. Other episodes, the Bobiverse books, you know, and the talk about that.

54:23I listened to those books this year and really enjoyed them all. I'm kind of sad I listened to them a little too fast and finished them all in about a week. The Ergonomic Keyboards episode was great. The Right to Repair episode was really great. and I think there were several episodes on HomeLab things and I really liked those too. For me, the changelog is a big source of discovery for new types of software and things like that that I had never heard of before. This year it was Zulip, I think in particular. And it was great timing because I was getting tired of Slack and the other mainstream chat platforms.

54:56And yeah, Zulip was just a nice breath of fresh air and yeah, I've really, really liked using it. From other years, especially Doppler and Nats were two pieces of software that are still a very big part of my software systems now. And I really appreciate being introduced to these softwares through your podcast. Anyways, thanks again for a great year. And I'm looking forward to the next. I dig it because Nabil was, he started the WordPress drama thread, by the way, and has been consistently posting in there. And that's been going on for a while, so much so that I'm scrolling back. So September 21st, Nabil posted odd drama going on in the WordPress land.

55:35Thoughts and linked out to like two ex-posts. And then, yes, Don McKinnon just after that. So maybe that was where you're connecting it a little behind the scenes there. But yeah, dig those. I mean, thanks for listening. So awesome. Yeah. And being in Zulip. That's right. And joining us there and threading up the threads. I like to hear stories like this one where it's like, I found cool technology because of the show. I adopted cool technology. Now my life is better because of cool technology. Like for me, that's kind of what we are all about is like finding cool stuff, showing it to people, talking about it.

56:12That's a win. It's a big win. Yeah. It's always been this spotlight kind of nature behind the scenes, this exposure, this where is the light less shined and shine it there and see what's over there. And sometimes it's not so much duds, but like just cool stuff, but not so interesting. Yeah. And then sometimes it's like, wow, there was a diamond in the rough over there. And we found that thing. And now it's like, boom, it's, you know, all the places doing all the things. Like Zulip. Clean it off, shine it up. You know? Now hanging out in Zulip. And Babaverse. Oh, yeah. The Babaverse has got to be exposed there.

56:45It's not software, but it is book. Books. Certainly on your list, Tennessee Taylor episode. Yeah. It is on my list. How does it feel that your list is almost entirely predictable? Well, do you got any surprises in there? I don't know. I mean, is that a good thing or a bad thing? Well, that's why I asked you how you feel. I don't know if it's good or bad. I feel like that means that I'm probably in alignment with our audience. No, I mean, not predictable by them, by me. Like, I know which ones you're going to pick. It's just because I know you so well. Well, I'm cool with that. There you go. That's what I mean.

57:17I dig it. Okay, good. So do I. Here's Nabil's remix. This year, I'm kind of sad. I think there were no episodes on rocket ships. I really like those. I think there were several episodes on software, things, never rocket ships, entrepreneurships, great, anything with ships. But really so many of the episodes are about software, things like that that I had never heard of before. That doesn't necessarily have to be like a, you know, podcast. I really like rocket ships.

57:58it's got some dunk-on vibes i was just gonna say that yeah donkey kong yep the other vibe i get is rain man didn't that kind of have like rain man vibes i just really like rocket ships just the way he remixed it yes the obsession with a specific thing tropical freeze we need a new version of tropical freeze i am down i mean i am no dk for life i'm 100 down yeah for some more dk All day. All day. DK all day, man. That's what I always say. So I've been listening to some Synthwave remixes of, I guess, gamey soundtracks remixed, like Synthwave style. And Donkey Kong Country, etc. translates very well.

58:39Retro Kid on YouTube. Check them out. Amazing. Yeah. Code to those beats. Nice. And I've archived them to my Plex, by the way. Did you try out Archive Box? No, I have a Plex, so I've just been Plexing it. But the principles of Archive Box have crept into my life. Right, but you had mentioned that maybe you were working too hard and this might be easier, but you already have it solved, so it just... Yeah, I already have the software and I already have an uptime guarantee on it and etc. So I'm just Plexing it essentially. I'm just moving it into my music category in Plex, and I go to Retro Kid and I push play, and all the albums just queue up, and I work.

59:21sweet and there's a good zelda track in there so you would be bring it yeah you'd love it i'm currently playing the playing the new zelda echoes of wisdom where you get to play as zelda herself my little daughters love it and we are playing it right now it's a classic zelda exactly what you'd expect so far we're about 45 minutes in so i can't review it entirely but so far so good who's this it's our old friend Lars Wikman hi this is Lars Wikman a long-time listener occasional guest I recently did my pocket casts wrapped type of deal and three of my top four most frequently listened podcasts had the same theme as in visual theme as in dark with neon green colors and to most people maybe the changelog does not have that for changelog plus plus members it does and of course it's better but yeah the other ones are acquired and oxide inference and you've done the oxide inference crossover when i appreciate it greatly so acquired crossover next maybe that'd be cool and aside from that i really appreciated the episodes with the beatmaster Breakmaster Cylinder, I'm sorry.

1:00:39And since went to Bandcamp and picked up his back catalog for not that much money. And now I have a bunch of his hits, among others, Changelog Dance Party, burned out on minidisc and I play them in my office. So that's what I'm up to. What do you think about that, Adam? Maybe getting acquired in 25 on the show? I'm down. I'm on the.fm right now, acquired.fm. checking it out. I've heard of the show. I haven't listened to too many of them. It's very popular. I haven't listened to it either, but people love it. I think they do a good job. I'm down. Crossover away. Let's do it. We'll see if they're down.

1:01:16You know, I'm seeing their about page and it seems like they're maybe on a stage. Like I think this next year, I want to call it a conference, but it'd be cool to do a live podcast. Like sell tickets, do a live podcast. That'd be kind of cool. Have you seen this where there's like the thing that podcasters are doing? I mean, I'm wondering, could we sell 50 tickets maybe? I think we'd sell 50. In a city? I think if we went to like New York or San Francisco or - Yeah, or Austin. Austin even, maybe Austin. Austin's kind of small though. It's big small. Yeah, but it's tech big to a certain extent.

1:01:51Yeah, I suppose Elon's doing something. And it's centrally located, like people will fly maybe. True. Or drive. I mean, it is my backyard, so I'm down. I mean, SF would be much easier though. I just have less hope that we have a ton of listeners here. I think we have more based on our stats. I've shipped out some shirts and some other merch lately, and I'm telling you, Texas listens. Okay. All right. I'm wrong, man. I love it. Not necessarily wrong. I'm just saying there are some people there. Anyhoo, yeah, that would be cool. I also think it's super rad that Losh is creating mini-discs of BMC beats and stuff and listening to them on mini-disc.

1:02:28I mean, analog. I mean, not literally analog, but like real life. for the win real life for the win hardware physical media for the win is what i meant to say yeah physical media is cool i i don't know if i like physical media personally i think it's cool but like maybe not good take it's cool but maybe not Y 'all didn't see his face. He was struggling to figure out what to say, and he came up with a good take. Well, I was about to opine, then I'm like, I'm just going to leave it. Good take. Oh, gosh, you should opine. At least a sentence. I like physical things. I, of course, also lived through a time period where I was digitizing all my things.

1:03:06I don't like to print, but I also kind of think printing's cool now. So it's like, what's old is new again. And I think that physical media has a tangibility to it that we desire. And so in that way, it is cool. obviously there's lots of drawbacks like you know your dog eats it or something my vehicle can't play it it's useless to me in like the places i consume content well how about a record player like in your house do you think that would be cool i would love a record player so that's cool i would i would go there yeah yeah that's kind of what he's doing it sounds like with mini discs you know okay that's cool then okay i'll take it back then i need more content i'm glad i opined i'm down for that kind of thing like i want a listening room jared this is like intentional listening and I feel like is what he's doing, which is very much what a record player is like.

1:03:50It's like, I'm going to listen to this now. Yeah, it's not like, oh, let's just cue up artists. Right. Let me just download this off YouTube and just throw out of my plaques and get to work. Now this is like let's sit down and enjoy some Breakmaster Cylinder beats. All right, Losh, remix them. Hi, this is Losh Wikman, a long time listener, occasional guest. I really appreciated the episodes with Breakmaster Cylinder. and went to band camp and picked up his back catalog. And now I have a bunch of his hits for not that much money. I have among others. And. And. Gosh. I had a dance party in my office.

1:04:42That's what I'm up to. I have a dance party in my office. That's what I'm up to. So I can say that the, I don't know if this is how your household went, Jared, but the moment that dance party was on the actual, I guess, proverbial airwaves, like on Spotify, I was like, okay, that's when it's real. Yeah. And, you know, obviously we QA'd it, we kind of like previewed some things, but I didn't listen to it with intention and enjoyment and motion, like body motion. until it was on Spotify. And the moment it was, I queued it up, and legit, me and the kids just danced. They mainly danced a lot. I just moved a little.

1:05:25They were really having a lot of fun for the whole thing. We just listened end-to-end the entire album. It was awesome. Yeah, it's just a cool thing to have that be real. I definitely got cooler in my kids' eyes when we had some actual beats like on Apple Music and Spotify, even though we were not the artist. We were just the curators of this music. Just a vessel. We're a vessel for which these things came. We were part of the creative process, you know, but BMC does all the creation. The true creation, yeah. And I will say that Dracula's purse, you know, like that sound just immediately triggers in a good way.

1:06:04Me and my kids, and it's just like, yeah, here we go. Yes. which I think Dracula's Purse is which is the first real track off of Next Level the video game inspired one I think that's our most listened to track on the proverbial airwaves. It's the most popular one now. It makes sense because the Castlevania soundtrack was just phenomenal Yeah. And Dracula's Purse is obviously an homage to Dracula's Curse which was the true music that came from the video game that literally everybody loves way more than Zelda Ha! Just saying. Just saying. We could take a poll. I think you might lose that one. It would probably lose.

1:06:48It would. No offense. It's just not as popular. It's more of a cult classic. It's a dang shame. Hey, man. I love Castlevania. So you're not going to get me to disagree. Although, the fact that you don't like Zelda. I do like Zelda. I just never got into it as much. Right. That's all. Fair enough. I identified more so with Castlevania. You know, it just had different touch points, I suppose. It might have been the first NES game I'd like maybe bought or like there was some connection to it where it was up there more than Zelda. And I also grew up poor, so I don't think I was able to afford Zelda for many years.

1:07:25I think I had to play my friends. It was gold, so it was cool, you know, like that. It had the gold cartridge, but, you know, it didn't cost any more than the other games. Yeah, it was super cool, you know. I didn't have the bling to get the thing, you know. I'm sorry. you had a subtle for castlevania yeah all right moving on here comes nick neasy my favorite episodes of the changelog are the ones where adam and jared just let loose and just get so excited about the topics that they're discussing that's things like home lab for adam his face just lights up you can hear it in his voice he gets very excited about that and the same thing goes for jared when it comes to typescript he just can't control how excited he is about type safe javascript and it really shows in the podcasts.

1:08:07Aside from that, I really enjoyed hanging with you guys at that conference in January, seeing you work the hallway and get amazing interviews from attendees and speakers and playing a really fun game of JS Danger. That was so fun. Thank you for all that you do. And I am very much looking forward to what this new Changelog podcast universe is all about. So much emotion, Nick. I appreciate that. Nick brings it. He does bring it. So then I'm thinking like, okay, he was joking about you, obviously, because you hate TypeScript. So was he joking about you? Or at least you do on a podcast. And I'm thinking like, maybe he thinks I don't like HomeLab and he's not telling the truth about me.

1:08:45I think he was being sincere with yours and joking with mine. Gotcha. It's part of the shtick, right? It's a setup. See, he set it up. Yes. Right. Nick's a showman, you know? Good one, Nick. He knows how to set it up and knock it down. I really, you know, I think that was the first time I met Nick. Yeah. Well, no, I met Nick back at the JS conference back in Nebraska times. The very first Nebraska JS conf, yeah. Yeah, and we've obviously digitally hung out. Right. Zooms and Riversides and podcasts. I don't think you guys hung out back in that. We were very busy. There were so many balls in the air between organizing the conference and trying to do Beyond Code, the video thing we were up to.

1:09:26It was a whirlwind. We should bring that back just for fun. to see what people who never saw that just to get a glimpse of like the the experiments you know the trials and tribulations right it's out there it's there's a playlist on our youtube i'm not going to link to it directly but it's there i'm not going to link to it directly you will not get a link from me it was the very first changelog films effort i think yes it was uh i do want to say though about nick he's actually pretty cool he's actually pretty cool surprise surprise yeah Except for the whole TypeScript thing. I just don't understand.

1:10:01Why? Why the love? Why the fanaticism? You know, there's some things you just can't know. It's like, you know, TypeScript is kind of the Java of JavaScript. Nick would agree. And no one gets excited about Java. I mean, it's fine. It does its job. But like, what is there to get excited about and love and fanboy over TypeScript? Like types. Static types. It's not exciting. Maybe you think it's better. but I don't know. Let's just listen to Nick's remix. Let me just say it is not better. TypeScript. It's not better. Yeah, it's worse. Here we go. My favorite episodes of the change log are the ones where Adam and Jared just let loose and just get so excited about TypeScript.

1:10:50Jared's face just lights up. You can hear it in his voice. He gets very excited about the TypeScript.

1:10:58All right, all right, all right, all right. I want to say thank you. It really shows in the podcasts. Aside from that, I really enjoyed hanging with you guys at that conference. It's all about type-safe JavaScript, and it really shows. Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey. TypeScript saves another day. Hey, hey, hey. Say hey, hey, hey, hey, hey. TypeScript saves another day. TypeScript saves. another day another day maybe that's why jared maybe i mean i'm almost converted you're right ah yeah that was uh that was good preaching right there good preaching all right next up rusty nail hello there listeners my favorite moments of the year are number one big thanks for remastering 10 000 hours of deliberate programming that was my overall favorite episode for two plus years that I've listened to the podcast and I've been meaning to come back to that episode.

1:11:59However, I don't have to do that now that I re-listened it again in the main feed. Number two, in the go time 3-3-2, the discussion of the founder mode led me to a conclusion that I've always had it on myself, but I didn't know how it was called. And during this summer, on one of the interviews, I was asked what made me an outlier among my peers and co-workers and now I know what should have been the answer which at the moment I did not now I am prepared for the next one in the episode of 6.11 of changelog I was really excited to hear the voices of the core python developer team I've programmed in python all my career and I have I've never interacted with these people in any way.

1:12:50Hearing the voices, I was generally excited about it. In the Practical AI 257, it was mentioned how the role of corporate culture and non-tech people impacts the AI adoption in big corporations and organizations. And that was an eye-opening moment for me. So I was really excited to hear that. Number five, my absolute favorite episode of the year is when the Secret Service or police knocking on the door. I think it was episode 609 for not even hacking, but vulnerability reporting. And with a few of the jokes that went along with the story. Next, we share a fun fact in our morning stand-ups. and the day I learned about the boss factor from the Change Lock in France number 70.

1:13:45I had to share the fun fact and I shared with the team what boss factor was, but it was actually called morbid by our CEO. And finally, I think we're missing an insane hiring market episode this year. And this was the year that I shifted my job, first time over the last five years. And if you are going to do it, I do have a question to ask. It's more like a paradox. If everyone complains about not having enough talent and people to hire, when you apply for a job at some company, you never hear anything back. If you don't have any connections there, how does this paradox happen? Good question. We did not do an insane hiring market with Gergay Arose this fall.

1:14:35We normally did it every fall. What's up with that? And I can't speak for you, Adam, but I just forgot about it this time. Oh, gosh. Did you forget about it? I would like to say that maybe the well has dried up on, maybe, I don't know, on the, should we dip back into that hiring market? It seems like we should. It was enjoyed. I love Gergay. I love talking to him. Yeah, people like that. I think we should definitely get Gergay on the show. He does have his own podcast now, so that's a thing. But maybe, you know, it could be a January thing. It doesn't have to be in the fall. It can be whenever we want it to be.

1:15:05So we could queue that up for Rusty. Let's do it. And ask that question. Yeah. I like doing it in the fall. It's a good end cap to the year because it's almost like, how do we get here and where are we going? Well, we dropped the ball in the fall, though. Yeah. So maybe we'll just wait until next fall. Maybe. Sometimes two years is the right amount of years. Sometimes. But I was pumping my fist on the best worst code base. Yes. That was a good one. I love that story yeah great story 10 ,000 hours remastered that was actually I like how that worked out actually we had a gap and we were thinking about what to do and I was like let's remaster an oldie but a goodie so I'm glad at least one person really enjoyed it I think that it got re-listened to another 25-ish thousand times maybe 21 ,000 times at least based on the site's stats and the remastered version actually has some cool stuff chapters.

1:16:05So the first time we did it was pre-chapters and now it has chapters so this listening experience might actually be slightly more enjoyable because you can jump around. Cue the music. My favorite numbers are the number 5. Generally excited about it. The number 2. Next is 7. But I think 5 plus 2 is actually seven and that was an eye-opening moment for me now you know the answer and finally we're missing uh my absolute favorite number is three dot one four one five two six five five nine seven nine three two three three four six six four three three three two seven nine five two eight eight four one nine seven one six nine three nine nine oh my gosh um i don't know if this was was it or or not.

1:17:00I was thinking maybe those numbers at the end might have been like 4, 8, 15, 16, 23, 42, which is from the TV show Lost. That would have been cool. That would have been a good tie-in. Still good though. Still good. Yeah, that was fun. He would have had to say the numbers to get that to do that. Yeah, that'd be hard. You have to have specific numbers that maybe Rusty didn't say. When I said cue the music, I was thinking the song Jump Around though.

1:17:32I came to get down. I came to get down. So get off your feet and jump around. I came to get down. Get off your feet and jump around. That's right. There you go. Cypress Hill, kids. No. That's Cypress Hill, isn't it? No. That's, uh, it's the, the leprechauns. What? Not the leprechauns. House of Pain. Yeah. I told you. House of Pain. You said Cypress Hill. Listen to this. It's produced by DJ Muggs of Cypress Hill. who also covered the song. All right? So take that. What? That's right. Jump Around. I don't know about this history. School me quickly. Okay. Jump Around is a song by the American hip-hop group House of Pain, produced by DJ Muggs of Cypress Hill, who has also covered the song and was released in May 1992 by Tommy Boy and XL as the first single from their debut album, House of Pain.

1:18:25So I wasn't wrong. I just had it wrong. sort of. There's a tie-in. There's a reason why I thought Cypress Hill, but yeah, it's House of Pain. That's cool. I didn't know that. Yeah. Glad you messed up, but didn't. Same. I'm always glad when I mess up and it's not actually a mess up. All right. Who's this? Oh, it's only Matt Reier. Hello, everybody. Matt Reier here. Just want to say a big thank you to everybody that supported us with the GoTime podcast and everything that I do on ShangeLog, and France. It's a platform, you know, they just make great podcasts and I can't wait to see what the future of ChangeLog is going to look like.

1:19:08Oh, sorry, I'm just, oh, what? Oh, change, oh yeah, ChangeLog. No, no, no, now you've said it, that is really, yeah, it's obvious now, but, oh, I've only seen it written down. You're right, change, yeah, okay, that's really clever. Well, Happy New Year, everyone, and I hope you let me come and be an a bit on future podcasts uh love you all bye wow sean's log oh matt i don't have to say that i don't say about that you know matt's a character i'll say this yeah stay tuned because matt ryer will be our very first friend of 2025 it's already booked so as it should be it's the way it should be get with your friends it was the the pilot for friends it was it was the inspiration the proving ground, so to speak.

1:19:57Proving ground, yeah. Oh, and Matt's always up to something. And he is, I will tell you this also, he is up to something for this next episode of Change Talking Friends. Oh, really? He's up to something. Do you know what the something is? I know a little bit about it. I'm not going to say any more than that. What might it involve? Just give us like one hint. Off color if you have to, whatever, not direct. Yes, and. Oh, that's so revealing. That's so revealing. You said it so quickly, like as if you had it queued up. No, I didn't. You put me on the spot. I thought, this is a good hint. Is that too much?

1:20:30Okay. Okay. Here's Matt Reier, remixed. Let's do it. Hello, everybody. Matt Reier here. Just want to say a big thank you to everybody that's supported ChangeLog and France. You know, they just make great podcasts. Tu sais, ils font juste d 'excellents podcasts. And I can't wait to see what the future of ChangeLog is going to look like. Happy New Year, everyone. And I hope you let me come and be an idiot a bit on the future podcasts.

1:21:04Love you all. Bye. Je vous aime tous. Au revoir.

1:21:21not sure what this show has become. I think it might be like a show-off center for Breakmaster Cylinder. And then obviously a show-off center for our listeners. Very much not about us at all. At the very, yeah. At least a playground, yeah. I keep trying to talk and I keep being cut off by these voicemails and stuff.

1:21:41Well, there's something poetic about that. Matt. Oh, I'm looking forward to it. I'm looking forward to it. I should say, we might have to bleep that, but I wouldn't know. I have no idea what she was saying. I assume it was what Matt was saying in French. It's possible. I have no idea. So if you knew, if you can hear that and translate it for us. I'll have my daughter listen to it. She speaks French. Okay. Yeah. We've reached our final caller. Any guesses, Adam, on who it might be? The person that might leave a voicemail at the very last moment. Give me a second. Need a hint? Sure. It's the same as the last caller last year.

1:22:17It's a big hint. Unless you didn't make it to the end of the show before you fell asleep. I fell asleep. I fell asleep. Jamie Tana. Oh, gosh, yes. Jamie Tana. Just in time Jamie. That's what we call him. Really? I just made that up on the spot. I love it. Yeah, that's nice. It's so, yeah, I was going to make a timing joke, but I can't find my words. All right. Well, let's hear from Jamie then. Hey, Adam and Jared. It's Jamie Tana here. Thanks for another awesome year of ChangeLog. plus plus it is so much better so much better i think i'm making this a tradition of me submitting late so i am sorry again and but hopefully i managed to make it in time i probably didn't but we'll find out this week i think that's probably a good segue into what my favorite episode of the year has been which i'm probably a little bit biased because it was me um in february i I joined you on Friends 31 to talk about being public, how ADHD affects me, including being late to submitting things like this, dependency management data, and also kickstarted my podcast career, where I followed up with a conversation on GoTime in episode 328 about OpenAPI.

1:23:32But enough about me. This year has been an epic year for Changelog, in particular, like the first year of Friends in full, which I've been incredibly thoroughly enjoying. which you may be able to guess from me listening to a whopping 45 episodes this year, including one that I finished listening to this morning. Some of my favorite episodes this year, especially in Friends, have been the new Hashtag Prime episodes, Friends 47 and 59, which have been really fun listening on my own, but also with my partner. There's a fun different thing to listen to, as well as meeting some really awesome and interesting people at the different hallway tracks at conferences you've been at.

1:24:10I also really enjoyed listening to Adam and Jared solo, either in Friends 70 or the Plus Plus special episode at Build 2024. And hearing a bit more from the two of you, because we always hear from your point of view from behind the mic. Data-wise, I've been split on GoTime and interviews, listening to 38 podcasts apiece this year, and then ship it just behind on 35 lessons. In total, according to my podcast app, in 2024 I've listened to eight days worth of podcasts with you all. It's been great but it's bittersweet with the news of the changelog podcasting universe. I'm cautiously optimistic for the future and I hope that in the coming year I'll be having some similar numbers across the whole podcast universe.

1:24:58Just quickly to go back to interviews there's been some really incredible interviews this last year. But to give just three of my top ones, Brian Cantrell in interviews 592, Akon from Hack Club in interviews 620, and Danny Thompson in interviews 617. A bunch of really interesting and diverse thoughts. And yeah, I've loved the way that you have just some really incredible people from different walks of life, different stages of career, different viewpoints. I'm going to stop rambling now. I want to say thanks again to all the many, many folk who have contributed to another really great year of ChangeUp.

1:25:44Plus, it is better. It's so much better. It's been better for years. Get in on that. I love how It's Better has become a thing. Like an unstoppable freight train. I love that it's so recycled throughout. It's A dumb thing I said one time just like messing around, you know, and it stuck. That's the, and my kids mimic it as well. My youngest, my five-year-old, they, you know, in their kid voice, change law plus plus, it's better. You know, they hold their nose because they make it sound nasally for some reason. I'm not sure to be, if I should be offended or not, but the Danny Thompson one, I like that.

1:26:23I'm glad that got out there. Yeah, that one almost didn't make it out. Yeah, it was, can you talk about the travels the data had to go through to get to us to become an MP3 on the airwaves? I'm holding it in my hand, which you would see if we had video first production, a Nick Neesey hard drive, which holds something like 35 gigabytes of film, the proverbial film, not actual film, from our stuff at that conference. and this had to come by way of, we were at that conference in Austin, Texas. Our Danny Thompson interview is on here and it took a long time to get it gathered together. I'm not sure the whole story, but Clark Sell diligently gathered.

1:27:10It was just too much to just send us. I mean, that's a lot of data. And so the idea was like sneaker net, I guess, for the win. And so Clark saw Nick at the summer's that conference in Wisconsin. So there's two that conferences, Austin, Texas and Wisconsin. Dells. And Nick happened to have his hard drive on him. So Clark gave him the 35 gigs or whatever it is and put it on the hard drive. I actually think it's more than that now that I'm saying it. It's something ridiculous. It's like 500 gigabytes. It was just too much to just put on the Dropbox or something, I guess. And Nick sneaker-netted it via an airplane back to his house.

1:27:46And then I had lunch with him because, you know, Nick and I both live in the Omaha, Nebraska area. I'm in Bennington, which is northwest of Omaha. And he's in Bellevue, which is kind of southeast Omaha. So we aren't super close together and probably a 40 minute drive if he was going to come to my house, but we meet in the middle and have lunch sometimes. And so he brought me this to lunch and I went through it and I've extracted it and I gave it to Jason, our editor, and Jason did his best with it. And he handed it to you and we said, can we ship this interview? And you know, the audio wasn't our standard quality.

1:28:17And so there were some questions and it wasn't that long, honestly, it was kind of a shorter episode. And so we actually almost deep sixed it didn't we adam uh we came close we uh we almost deep sixed it because we thought about what was what was it about it well it didn't sound amazing and it was a little bit shorter than we normally do right and we thought well wouldn't we just get danny back on the pod and just do it fresh like a real episode which was another route we could have went but you know this is a business we do put shows out on the weekly and we needed a show that week so it's like that was definitely part of the decision-making process.

1:28:54We can't act like it wasn't. We have sponsors who count on us to put shows out. And so I was like, can this be a standalone episode? And I'm glad that at least for Jamie, it was one of the best of the year. Hopefully other people liked it too. Danny was over the moon because I saw Danny at All Things Open. I told him, I don't think we're going to get that episode out. And thankfully it was about his life story more than it was about current events or anything, because it was last January that we recorded it. So it was pretty much evergreen. Well, this January. Last January. If you're listening to this in 2025, last January.

1:29:26January of 24. Yes. Gotta give to get back. Yeah, gotta give. Gotta give to get back. To get back. I'm glad we got it out there because I think that, I don't know Danny's full story aside from what we had shared there, but I think he had been newer or newish to sharing his story, especially on stage. I think since then he's had more reps. And so we actually may be late to the party in terms of sharing that story. Sure. But obviously sharing it on the conference stage, so to set the stage a bit more elongated but shortened, is that even a thing? I don't know. Is we were on stage with Danny. Did we pass the mic back and forth?

1:30:07I don't think so. Yeah, okay. I think we each had our own mics, but they were handheld mics. They weren't like stationary mics. We had them handheld so we can pull them away from our face. There's no breath going on. And then we had some Q &A afterwards. And so the Q &A didn't fit. And so if you're at the conference, it was a lengthy conversation with more context. As a podcast, the Q &A just didn't fit because it was so contextual to the conference and the screens in front of us. And so it just made sense to like trim that. But I'm glad we got it out. I'm glad that the sneaker net worked out.

1:30:40I'm glad Nick had his hard drive. I'm glad Clark Sell came through and got us the data. even if it was published recorded January 30th and published November 14th, that's cool. At least we still shipped it, you know. And it was awesome. I dug it. Alright, Jamie, thank you as always for calling in just in time. Just in time. Here is your Breakmaster Cylinder Remix. This year has been an epic year. Awesome year. Awesome and interesting. Pretty fun. It's been great. A bunch of really interesting and diverse thoughts. Really incredible. So much better. So much better. So much better. Been better for years.

1:31:26Get in on it. But enough about me.

1:31:36Mmm. Mmm. That one smacks. So much better for years. That beats a banger. Check the scoreboard. The numbers don't lie. I reversed it. What'd you reverse? Well, it's actually, the numbers don't lie. I took the scoreboard. Oh, I don't know the saying. Dude. Sha-boy! Excuse me? Can you do it? It's Jay-Z. That's a Jay-Z line? Yeah, man. Here's my concern with Jay-Z is like, I like the man's music and everything. And Sha-boy certainly comes from it. But it turns out he might be like a really awful person. Turns out. Yeah, well, you know, the Pete Diddy tapes are dropping. and Jay-Z maybe implicated some seriously wicked stuff and not wicked in the Boston accent kind of a way.

1:32:19Wicked smart. Wicked bad. He's wicked smart. Wicked bad. Yeah. So anyways, distancing myself perhaps. I'm not going to drop the shit boy, but most people don't even know what it is. Well, I thought because of the shit boy, you would know. I don't know that verse. Check the, what is it? It's numbers don't lie. Check the scoreboard. Okay. I know I've pointed at a scoreboard before, especially in high school basketball and said scoreboard. Well, that's a thing. I mean, I think it's a thing and he made it a lyric. He didn't create it. He didn't coin it. Yeah, I was going to say he stole it from me when I was in high school.

1:32:48I used to do that. Come on. Theft. Now add that to the list. Yeah. Idea theft. You know, copyright. Okay. So a good attempt. You know, we missed the layup on that one. It was my fault. But that's it. That's our 12 voicemails and remixes. Thank you, BMC. Thank you to all of our listeners. But now it's our turn to talk. Oh, yes. It's a whole new show now. Chapter marker, drop it. Part two. Another hour of show coming up. Get ready. We're going for a bathroom break. We're shaking our legs. I'm just kidding.

1:33:23What's up, friends? I'm here in the breaks with David Hsu, founder and CEO at Retool. If you didn't know, Retool is the fastest way to build internal software. So, David, we're here to talk about Retool. I love Retool. You know that. I've been a fan of yours for years. that I'm on the outside and you're clearly on the inside, right? You're on the inside, right? I think so. Yeah, I'd say so. Okay, cool. So given that you're on the inside and I'm not on the inside, who is using Retool and why are they using Retool? Yeah. So the primary reason someone uses Retool is typically they are a backend engineer who's looking to build some sort of internal tool and it involves the front end.

1:34:02And backend engineers typically don't care too much for the front end. They might not know React, Redux, all that well. And they say, hey, I just want a simple button, simple form on top of my database or API. Why is it so hard? And so that's kind of the core concept behind Retool is front-end web development has gotten so difficult in the past 5, 10, 20 years. It's so complicated today. Put together a simple form with a submit button, have to submit to an API. You have to worry, for example, about, oh, you know, when you press the submit button, you got to bounce it or you got to disable it when it's, you know, is fetching is true.

1:34:34and then when it comes back, you got to enable the button to get or there's an error, you got to display the error message. There's so much crap now with building a simple form like that. And Ritual takes that all away. And so really, I think the core reason why someone would use Ritual is they just don't want to build any more internal tools. I want to save some time. Yeah, clearly the front end has gotten complex. No doubt about that. I think even front enders would agree with that sentiment. And then you have back end folks that already have access to everything, API keys, production database, servers, whatever.

1:35:03But then to just stand up Retool, to me, seems like the next real easy button because you can just remove the entire front end layer complexity. You're not trying to take it away. You're just trying to augment it. You're trying to give developers a given interface. That's Retool. Build out your own admin, your own view to a Google Sheet or to the production database. All inside Retool. Let Retool be the front end to the already existing backend. Is that about right? Yeah, that is exactly right. The way we think about it is we want to abstract away things that a developer should not need to focus on, such that a developer can focus on what is truly specific or unique to their business.

1:35:48And so the vision of what we want to build is something like an AWS, actually, where I think AWS really fundamentally transformed the infrastructure layer. Back in the day, developers spent all their time thinking about how do I go rack servers? How do I go manage cooling, manage power supplies? How do I upgrade my database without it going down? How do I change out the hard drive while still being online? All these problems. And they're not problems anymore, because nowadays when you want to upgrade your database, just go to RDS, press a few buttons. And so what AWS did to the infrastructure layer is what we want to do to the application layer, specifically on the front end today.

1:36:24And for me, that's pretty exciting because as a developer myself, I'm not really honestly that interested, for example, in managing infrastructure in a nuts and bolts way. Now, I would much rather be like, hey, you know, I want S3 bucket. Boom, there's an S3 bucket. I want a database. Boom, there's a database. And similarly, on the front end or in the application layer, there is so much crap people have to do today when it comes to building a simple CRUD application. It's like, you know, you probably have to install 10, 15, maybe even 20 different libraries. You probably don't know what most libraries do.

1:36:54It's really complicated to load a simple form. You know, you're probably downloading almost like a megabyte or two of JavaScript. It's so much crap to build a simple form. And so that's kind of the idea behind Retool is could it be a lot simpler? Could we just make it so much faster? Could you go from nothing to a form on top of your database or API in two minutes? We think so. Yeah, I think so too. So listeners, Retool is built for scale. It's built for enterprise. It's built for everyone. And Retool is built for developers. That's you. You can self-host it. You can run into cloud and custom SSO, audit log, SOC 2, type 2, professional services.

1:37:30Starting with Retool is simple, fast. And of course, it's free if you want to try it right now. So go to retool.com slash changelog. That's R-E-T-O-O-L dot com slash changelog.

1:37:51Favorite episodes of ours. How many of yours are left standing? Let me just say one thing before we truly break over. Okay. Because I recall the podcast with Jamie. Yes. I recall being there, obviously. I recall this show was awesome. Good. I do not recall titling that show Yeeting Stuff Into Public. Did you title that sans me? Was I on vacation or something? It was like a Friday afternoon. I just slapped a title on it and went. Okay. Well, he said that. Did he? Okay. And it was all about him doing like public, you know, his whole public salary and writing and everything. And so. Yeeting is a term?

1:38:29What is a yeeting? Yeeting? Yeeting. Yeah. To yeet something is to throw it. T-I-L. Yeah. It's what the kids are saying. At least they were saying it about 10 years ago. I think it's kind of old. Yeah, yeeting. Hmm. Yeet. See, I mean. You say that when you just toss somebody. Yeet. I didn't toss anybody for one. No, it's not you. Jamie was yeeting stuff in the public. He's just been throwing stuff in the public, you know? I got it. I'm getting it, but. Okay. Yeah, I titled that one without you. You know, sometimes we just roll. I have an idea. I like it. I'm just going to publish that sucker. Same.

1:39:01It's so obvious. Why check? Exactly. Especially when it's something that they say on the show. It's like too easy. I have a long list, okay? I mean, I'm not even sure that I can express this list. It's lengthy. Well, while we're bike shedding titles, should we just get the titles out of the way? Favorite titles. Did you write some down? Oh, yeah. Okay. Let's just do that one quick because it's less emotional. Can we do it quick? Let's do it. Yeah. You, me, or you? Let's just go back and forth. You, me, or you? Okay, me first. Okay. Great title. It's not always DNS. Uh, that's in, I won't say it.

1:39:35Yeah. Oh, that's in your favorite list. Yeah. I like that one because we wanted to call it, it's always DNS, but we realized on the show that Paul Vixie actually didn't like that statement. And so we inverted it similar to the not insane tech hiring market. And we said, it's not always DNS. So that's why I like that one. Your turn. You'll rent chips and be happy. Oh yeah. This was a recent friends episode, wasn't it? Yeah. And what were we talking about again? Zach Smith, Equinix, metal fame. Right. Previous to that was Packet. Right. But they go back to the. We talk about subscriptions inside of data centers and stuff.

1:40:13Right. Because of like recycling hardware and kind of having the best tech. Right. And his big idea is like to recycle the hardware and subscribe to it. And people were not down with his idea, by the way. We had lots of people writing in like, this isn't a good idea. I was, I don't know, data centers. I don't know big data business. Who wrote this in? where they write this in at in zulip did i miss the chat there was some chat i don't remember okay probably zulip probably internets okay um but interesting conversation brought out a lot of people's thoughts and great title because we were talking about the whole world economic forum and you'll own nothing and be happy and this is you will rent chips these are gpus and be happy good one my turn retirement is for suckers that is a good one oh talk about a quote i mean he literally said that cameron cameron say came out right at the beginning it's just like retirements for suckers and that was the show title show title you will like this one i think it's the best one of the year if there was an award for the best title of the year this is it okay the wrong place to slap a person i believe it's the best of the year that one is in my list as well i think it's staying still yet that's the wrong place to slap a person i mean it's great it's created some major waves a lot of drama i mean would it be different if it was done differently maybe i don't think so of course referring to the matt mullenweg call out of wb engine at word camp that's the wrong place to slap a person we recorded this friend's episode yes i think with nick nisi as well right after that event and so that's what this thing is referring to and adam said that on the show i do like to have show titles that are something that was said on the show i think it's a nice easy way of having a tie-in, especially when you don't know what it means at first and then you hear it later on the show.

1:41:59I've always enjoyed that. It does make it sweeter. I agree. That was in my list of best titles. How about this one? The Old Hot and Juicy. That's in my list too. Adam's the best. The Old Hot and Juicy. Gosh, what was the context? Why did he say that? Do you recall? It was similar to A Horsehead in Your Bed. You know, it's the offer you can't refuse. The Old Hot and Juicy is like this thing that's like, he was referring to the article written by my essay about open tofu potentially copyright infringing terraform yes and it's like this the old hot and juicy is like can i quote him from the transcript yeah go ahead adam jaco says yeah and the reputation dragon was the reason to do it somebody replied to me on twitter and called the season's letter the old hot and juicy right so the letter was the old hot and juicy.

1:42:50Okay, not the article. Not the article. But he said old hot and juicy like three or four more times on that show. I think so. And it became the show title. You got another one? The B-S-O-D Crowd Strikes Back. That's my other one. This was, of course, our Crowd Strike episode with Robert Ross. Probably should have said it differently. The B-S-O-D. The blue screen of death. To drag it out doesn't like let it land. The B-S-O-D Crowd Strikes Back. Right. Well, of course, we are referring to the Empire Strikes Back, but it's the blue skin of Jeff that's crowd striking back because it did man all of a sudden here comes the BSOD striking a PC near you around the crowd strike debacle incident yeah debacle it's probably a debacle that's an incident for sure oh for sure a scalable incident at that bigger than an incident incident doesn't do it justice debacle was a great word haven't caught up with the the ripples though like what's changed as a result of this happening that'd be good yeah i don't know i mean that can be kind of boring maybe well if it's interesting then it's interesting but if it's boring that's true what's changed very little there's like a few more processes inside crowd strike now all right last one for me best title of the year this one saved us from a bunch of other bad titles so from a bunch of bad titles that we had come up before it and the title is major.semver.patch that was a good title all caps of course we had a hard time naming that episode we did about semver but why not use semver to name semver and call it a patch because the whole thing was about how we can change semver to make it better yeah can we have a major patch at semver solid title yeah 1999 a film odyssey that's a changelog plus plus only it's a bonus show for those who are the cool people you know it's better just saying that was actually almost made my list of favorite episodes but i didn't want to put it on because i feel like that's just rude uh well i did it for you oh and i'm rude and the last one was the wu-tang way yeah that's a good one yeah good show good title fun title all right here we go favorite episodes how many years are left standing standing like have not been mentioned like they haven't been referenced by anybody else let's see here oh one two three four technically five so fine so of my nine i have five favorites and four honorable mentions of my nine i have almost all of them i have seven of nine okay maybe six depending on how you count this one you just want to go through the list real fast uh you want to do all yours and then all mine all mine and all yours i think everyone's waiting for me to reveal my unprecedented yeah because i mean it's been like an hour and a half i'm not but i think they might be they've forgotten about it by now i've forgotten about it but i'm down for it i'm just kidding with you all right so here's what i'm gonna say and i think you're gonna like this okay uh one of my favorite episodes these are in no particular order okay so they're not like one through five this is Not my number one favorite episode, but one of my five favorite episodes.

1:45:56Unprecedented, never happened before, hasn't come out yet because it's coming out today or tomorrow as we record. And it will be out in the feed on Friday. But I'm not sure if it's my favorite because it hasn't been produced, but I'm pretty sure it's going to be one of my favorites because it is Ghosty with Mitchell Hashimoto. Really? Really. Please tell me why it's your favorite, given that you haven't listened to it. It's the most recency bias I could possibly have. We just talked to him the other day, man. Recency bias is real. No. Good show, though. I like that. Great show. Deep dive. He's so thoughtful.

1:46:35You know, you don't hear from him very much. So I hadn't heard from him besides his blog in a long time. I think Ghosty's legitimately really cool. You know, it's not every year that I change both my main text editor, which is now Zed, and my terminal, which as of last week, and I think it's going to continue, why wouldn't it, is Ghosty. Really? Yeah, I'm off terminal.app, man. I pulled it out of my dock. Oof. I haven't launched it since. He convinced me out of terminal.app and I'm on Ghosty. And I just feel like I'm excited because I think Ghosty's going to get way better over the next year. And Mitchell got me excited.

1:47:10So I don't know. Call it recency bias. Call it haven't heard the episode yet bias. I just got a feeling that's going to be a top for not just me. And so what was your, remind me what your hint was to me and what I did not get. Did you give me a hint? No, I didn't give you any hint. I thought you gave me a hint. I just told you I was going to do something unprecedented. No one's ever picked a show that hasn't shipped yet. Oh, okay. That's true. And it is in this year. That's right. And that is unprecedented. It follows all the rules. Congratulations, Jared. Thank you. Thank you. Probably the best pick of the year.

1:47:40What do you got going? Should I share my whole list? What should I do? Well, I might as well just keep going down mine. Yeah, sure. Why not? I'm going to break a few rules though. the other thing I picked number two is all the Kaizens oh can I just pick the Kaizens as a totality yeah it's too hard to do I mean they're a thread I feel like they're chapters in a major podcast they almost are they're like nested chapters so we did five this year five Kaizens with Gerhard if I had to pick just one it would be the not a pipe dream one the one where he took us on that journey and he revealed to us over time what was going on yes that was just spectacular but epic they are all kind of one long windy road and so i'm just gonna pick all the kaizens i just feel like i'm loving what we're doing with kaizen what's happening there is interesting i feel like that's probably one of the best things we did this year so that's breaking the rules because i picked five episodes as one yeah just counts as one i'm gonna break the rules one more time oh gosh and i'm going to pick the episodes from that conference oh so this is two for the price of one nice you have how many open tabs yes that was with nick nisi amy dutton and andres pineta andres yeah and the second one was future of energy content food and that was with a bunch of people as well we had a samuel goff future of energy we talked with youtuber jess chan from the coder coder channel and then you did one without me because i had to leave earlier than you with vanessa via and noah jenkins all about ag tech and the future of food.

1:49:15I thought both of those episodes turned out awesome. Yeah. And all those conversations were good. There wasn't a dud in the mix. And so I'm picking those two as a bundle as one of my top five of the year. Okay. I dig it. Okay. Nice. Number four, the man behind the sandwich with Adam Lissagor. I just really enjoyed that conversation. Adam is so smart and experienced and deep. I felt like we went really deep places there. And I remember making clips and I'm like, I got like seven clips here. I just, I got to stop clipping this because there are so many good parts. Fun talk about Apple vision pro and what they're doing there with sandwich theater.

1:49:57I love that one. I've been a fan of his for a long time and was excited to meet him and he delivered. And my last one, top five favorite, this is Change Dog and Friends, Starbucks DVD Peddlers with Emily Freeman and Justin Garrison. That conversation went off the rails in every great way possible. I remember thinking I was excited to have a conversation with them, but coming into it, the topic that we were supposed to be talking about just wasn't hidden for me at the moment. It was like DevRel stuff, which we had already just done a DevRel episode with Swix maybe a month prior. and maybe that's why, but like it just never got to the, the DevRel part is like the last 20 minutes maybe.

1:50:38And the conversation just went wild about DVDs and nostalgia, the nineties and so many good laughs. Selling things and meeting people at, no, selling DVDs and meeting them at Starbucks. Yeah, buying DVDs from people at Starbucks. And then like, even listening back to it, I was laughing because like me and Emily are just awestruck by Justin doing this. And he's like, why, why wouldn't I? I'm like, because you might be murdered, you know? I mean, she goes, that's wild. We're just having so much fun. I like to meet people at police stations. By choice or because they make you go there? Well, like I once sold a bicycle.

1:51:15Do you ride in the back of the car? No, no, no. Okay. Well, no, I literally will say, hey, if you want to buy this thing from me, meet me at the police station. That's a great place to meet somebody. Yeah, 100 % not getting murdered there. Yeah, exactly. It's a maybe. Actually, it might be. It's so obviously safe. that it's not safe right so good by fire so just a real quick recap my top five ghosty kaizen's that conference the man behind the sandwich and starbucks dvd peddlers your turn now were these episodes you mentioned ones that were delimited from the list of ones already mentioned because i got so nobody mentioned i think any of those i think that i think our conference hallway tracks were kind of mentioned by a few people yes but i do have some honorable mentions, which I'll let you go first and then I'll see because some of those have been picked already.

1:52:05But yeah, these are all pretty much standalones. Should I share my entire list or should I share the list that hasn't been shared already? Share your list that hasn't been shared. Number one, ChangeLogInterviews615. Rails is having a moment again. Good one. Good one, yes. Into the Babaverse episode 603, because why not? I'm concurring with you on this one, The Man Behind the Sandwich, 601. Nice. Nice. In the beginning of Generative AI, episode 576. Joe Reese. You know, that was so long, I kind of forget it was this year. It does feel like a long time ago. Well, we did 100 episodes, so they add up and you think, that feels like a lot of episodes ago, but it was only like, was that March, April, February?

1:52:48I don't know. Big fan of Joe Reese, data engineering guy, and happy, we actually went on his pod after that, and love to have him back on. He's a great conversationalist, has lots of cool stories. That was fun too, going on his podcast. I feel like we went there and had no topics. Yes. Right? Pretty much. Where can we go, basically, with the conversation? That was cool. Right. I appreciate that about Joe that he did that because, I mean, one, you can say he didn't plan or two, you can say he didn't plan on purpose. There you go. I know which one he might say. This one here was also early last year.

1:53:24It's actually one episode before that, episode 5, 7-5, Shift Left. Seriously. I feel like that was a really good show on the shift left idea. I mean, shift left has been said a lot, but I think the thing I took away mainly from that was it's always been said, like, who shifts left? Developers, obviously. It's going to shift left into the development cycle. But for me, I think I even said it, and it was me saying it like my aha moment was that it doesn't have to be developers shifting left, that it's in development. So it could be those around the dev cycles. It doesn't have to just be the developer writing the code.

1:53:58but it could be the team playing the software and the product team. It could be that shift left isn't just simply a developer task to pick up. It's not the who, it's the when. Yeah, it's not the who, it's the when. Thank you, yeah, that's what I said. I know you did. I remember you saying it. That's my list. That's my list of ones that haven't been mentioned. Oh, those are your not mentions, because all the rest of them have been hit on the head. Right to Repair, Sun to Oxide, Adam Jacob, System Initiative. Retired Not Tired. ZSA. Yes, ZSA was... Is it on there? I mean, I had a long list. It didn't make my list because it's such a long list.

1:54:32The Moneyball Approach, Best Worst Co-Base, Open Source Threaded Team Chat. Best Worst Co-Base is in my honorable mentions. Open Source Threaded Team Chat is in my honorable mentions. The Wu-Tang Wei with Ron Evans is in my honorable mentions, as well as, this one hasn't been said yet, The Winamp Era with Jordan Eldridge. Yeah, that was a fun one even to come up with because when I saw what he was spelunking into when it came to those Winamp themes. I'm like, wow, that is some cool stuff there. And I think I shared that with you, and you're like, yeah, that's dope. Let's do it. And so we did it.

1:55:04Paraphrase, of course, I don't think you ever said the word dope. I say the word dope. Dope. I call people dopes. Well, that's not nice. Yeah, just my kids. Yeah, well, you know, it's been a fun year. It's been, is this the first year where we've, was Friends around all last year? Like end to end all last year? I don't think so. I think we started Friends last year. Yeah. And this will be the first year we've done Friends through and through. This will be episode 74 of Friends. So there you go. You have a 52 plus a 20-something. Yeah. So yeah, first full year of Friends. The point I was trying to make was I think this is the first year where we had two shows a week all year long, January to December.

1:55:44Right. And that's why it feels like a lot. That's like 100 episodes. Yeah. It's a lot of shows. 101 technically. And by the end of the year we'll have 103 because we have Ghosty in this one. How do we bonus some shows? That's crazy. Well, we did some bonuses, yeah. What do you think was the through line to the year in terms of, there wasn't like a consistent this is the change or the trend line. I feel like - Like the year of this, where this is something. Yeah. Like AI didn't get touched on a lot this year, even though I think it did. I mean, we talked about AI loosely, I believe, in The Man Behind the Sandwich.

1:56:19you know obviously in the beginning of generative ai with joe reese that was right right in the title there itself i feel like ai didn't play a major conversational role in all these and we didn't talk about with the hh at all no or the moneyball approach no with john unamaker or the best worst code base no so i think we kind of kept it somewhat ai free i think so mostly ai free like mostly local mostly ai free dude mostly local is the way to go yeah i don't if there was any major theme for the year as some of our listeners pointed out we obviously camped out in certain areas there's the home lab area there's the programming languages area there's the culture area there's the open source area and i don't know if i had to like pick one thing it's like how about like uh realistic and healthy relationships with technology and the industry something like that yeah i think a lot of the patina of tech is showing and we're having i think more of a appropriate view of both technology itself and the companies that we work for than in the past and i think it's been realized and and shown this year amongst other trends of course the open source deal you know going non-open source and then back again for elastic but then a lot of companies choosing to go non-open source and go fair source, business source, that whole deal.

1:57:49I don't know. I'm just rambling. You asked a hard question. I don't have answers. Slight ramble. Somebody mentioned, I forget whom, with our voicemail, mentioned episode 70, Bus Factors and Conspiracy Theories. I think that I enjoy solo shows with you just as much as a guest, and I'm glad people like those. I think we do have some good stuff, let's just say, in those kind of shows. We good at talking sometimes. We good at talking. I will say now that I'm looking at this list, there is an honorable mention I want to bring up. Okay. And I really, really, really enjoyed the listen back. So, I mean, I don't always listen to our shows because obviously I'm like there.

1:58:30Right. But I do listen to parts. That's why I appreciate our chapters. I'm like, I was there. I'm going to chapter. I'm going to jump around. I'm not going to. You're going to Cypress Hill that thing. You know, go all in and listen to it. to end yeah shop talking friends yeah yeah i mean i thoroughly truly really enjoyed having chris and dave on i feel like we literally were sitting down with friends exactly and we were obviously but i i think that's that to me was just like a such a fun even the way it opened up with like me telling dave that he wasn't on brand with his you know his all caps or camel cases and he let me fix that and then it turned into like was that a web socket behind the scenes that just opened up the conversation just naturally there was no real true true beginning to the show we just opened up there and i think just the conversation was there was no true plan because that's what you're doing anyways right you're just going to sit down and talk to people right i like when that works out to our betterment when when we actually come without a true plan there's a version of an idea there's a concept of a plan yeah there's a concept oh i agree that's why i think that that conversation with Emily and Justin just tickled me so much because afterwards I was like that was just four friends hanging out and maybe the through line there is like four is better than three oh yeah maybe because it's both those produce good like friend like almost party atmosphere conversations but yes that could just be a coincidence as well I could probably think of some times where we had three and it's felt like that as well like with Matt or Nick but that's like the whole like that is friends in a nutshell like that's so frenzy is like let's just get people together who are friends or want to be friends are friendly in the case of Jamie Tana started off with ChangeLog and Friendlies and becomes a friend and let's just talk and enjoy each other and laugh and come up with ideas and my question for you is maybe we should end after this because we're getting long in the tooth is ChangeLog++ is well known for being better but here's a question is ChangeLog and Friends better than Change Log Interview, like than our thing, than our show, than the thing that we created all these years.

2:00:38Like maybe Friends is actually the better show. I'm going to leave that as an open question and not as an answered question. Something to think about. Well. I don't know if this is indicative of or not, but I would probably say based on my list, no. Yeah. All of my favorites were on interviews. That's not to say that I didn't enjoy Friends. It's just to say that, you know, I think that my list sort of gravitated there. But my favorite titles were on Friends. Of my top five, Ghosty was an interview. The Kaizens are friends. That, Conf, those, one was, I think we did one of each. Maybe they're both friends.

2:01:16Man Behind the Sandwich was an interview. And then Starbucks, Stevie Peddlers was friends. Wu-Tang Wei was friends. Winamp Barrow was friends. Open Source Thread, Team Chat, that was interview. Best, worst code base, that was an interview. But it probably could have been a Friends. We broke the rules a couple times, too. Like, I think you may be honest with this whole three people, because when it's three, it feels like an interview. Like, 10 years of free code camp was on Friends. Yeah, but he's an old friend. He's been on the show tons of times. We weren't interviewing him. I know that. That's where it's a bendy.

2:01:42You know, it's a bendy. We're trying not to interview him. The problem with Quincy, there's no problems with him, but the challenge. The problem. Here's why Quincy sucks. No, the challenge with Quincy is he answers questions like they're interviews. He's like, he's going to give you an interview. And so it's hard to just like riff with him. It's not that hard, but it feels like you're interviewing him because he's going to give you a two or three minute response. Yes. And he's not going to give Adam or Jared much time to chat. No, he's a talker, man. Oof. I have one more. This is the, this is the one that broke the rule.

2:02:11I think the most potentially on friends developer unhappiness with Abby Noda. We're talking about, I think that one is a show that like set up for a friends. Yeah. But it ended up feeling more like an interview. Yeah. I'm down. I'm just saying like. It is what it is. I think I like them all, honestly. I mean, I do agree that there's some good stuff on both sides of the fence. You didn't need to answer. I was just leaving it there open. Oh, man. But I appreciate you taking a crack at it. How do we end this year? What do we say? What do we do before we hit stop? Well, we did drop some major news.

2:02:49And the only time we talked about it was with Gerhard. loosely. Right. Should we talk about that at all? Is there more to say about that? Well, there will be a link in the show notes. A new era coming 2025. That's right. Still percolating. This is a dry brine. A drive-by? It's a dry brine. Oh, I thought you called this a drive-by. It's like, that's not good. Dry brine. Dry brines are what? They're a work in progress? Well, they take some time. It's a whip. Let's call this a whip. Sure. We have some change. It's clear. It's clearly unclear. But I would say this. This is what I said at the end of this one show.

2:03:28And I said, just trust us. Trust us to have the best interests of all the reasons you've shared your voicemails, all the reasons you've hung out in Zulip, all the reasons you've listened for a few years, for many, many years, etc. Have some patience with the process of what we're trying to do. We're making some change. It's not going to be exactly precise, but it's mostly precise, intentionally precise if we can. And we're trying our best to, to move the direction that we want to go, that it needs to go. And that's really it. Patience. Patience, Grasshopper. Patience. Thank you all for calling in.

2:04:11Thank you all for listening to us and being part of our community. If you're not in Zulip yet, let's fix that bug. Fix it. head to changelog.com slash community, sign up for free, throw in your email address, get yourself a Zulip invite, hop into Zulip, and hang out with us. But other than that, we're going to take the next couple weeks off. We're going to be with our families. We're going to be chillaxing. And we are going to be preparing for 2025. What will it hold? We don't know exactly, but trust us, young grasshopper. Anything else? The remixes. thank you BMC for the the extra attention so good so gold so gold yeah that should be the better so good the new so good is so gold so gold so gold like that Zelda cartridge preach so gold so gold yeah thank you BMC for those beats and for just the remixes and making this show a little more special a little more special thank you there you go bye friends bye friends we'll see you in the new year

2:05:21All right, that is it. 2024 is in the bag. Can you believe it? If you have ideas, requests, or anything at all you'd like to say, hop in our Zulip and sound off on the discussion thread for this episode. We absolutely love hearing from you. Thanks one last time for listening to our shows this year. We literally wouldn't be able to keep putting out new stuff if y 'all weren't listening. So thanks. and a huge thanks to everyone on our team and in the changelog community for everything you do. You know who you are. But still, I'll name a few names. BMC, of course. Our editors, Brian and Jason. Alexandru on transcripts.

2:05:58Gerhard, of course. Our friends and panelists on JS Party. GoTime, Practical AI, ShipIt, all of our pods. Y 'all are awesome. To our wives, Rachel and Heather, thank you so much. And to our sponsors, Fly.io, Sentry, Wix, Shopify, WorkOS, Retool, Neon, 8sleep, and many more awesome companies who support us. Thank you. Truly. Thank you. All right. That's all for now. But let's get together and talk a lot more next year.

2:07:06We'll be right back.

2:07:14actual problems so why don't you go inside no more listening to change lock and fence the baddest chair in silicon valley if no one gave the gag will come to an end but honestly that will probably be our finale

2:07:40You best be slinging ones and zeros And that makes you one of our heroes Your list of to-dos is waiting for you So why don't you go inside No more listening to change rockin' friends The Batman chair and people you know Change-logging friends, time to get back into the flow Change-logging friends, change-logging friends It's your favorite ever show, favorite ever show