The 4 DIMM problem (Friends)

34:46Yeah, because you got Reaper for audio. And I haven't played with these enough yet to have the mileage to really advocate for them yet, but I'm hopeful. One, you could build your own system in the Linux world. You don't have to be stuck with the... I mean, I love Mac hardware, don't get me wrong. It's bar none some of the most phenomenal innovations ever. It just sucks that you can't upgrade the system. You don't own the system. It owns you in lots of ways. I mean, even for an older system, like they don't maintain, you know, current operating system support for it. So you got an older, really great system that should still have modern support, doesn't have support.

35:23So it just frustrates me. But yeah, DaVinci is support on Linux. And so that's very hopeful. And DaVinci is really well regarded. I mean, I have lots of friends who do, like, they swear by it only. Colorists were the ones of the first few who migrated, like, coloring from, you know, S-Log or whatever you might be shooting in if you're in a Sony camera or even in, like, Canon Log format. Going from that Log format and having a full dynamic range of the color. Coloring in DaVinci is just really, really proper. and so it started there probably about five or six years ago there was a revolution of migration away from the current standard to DaVinci Premiere is known for crashing so people were even if they were super comfortable and knew their workflow super well but really they hate this piece of software deeply visceral level I've used DaVinci some of the keyboard shortcuts drive me nuts and some of the workflows absolutely seem bad to me.

36:32But overall, it's very capable. It's very competent. It's just not always wired the same way I am, which is, I suppose, fine. I've used Reaper for podcasts. Reaper is fine. It's more suited to music production, but it works fine for podcasts. Like podcasts demand fewer things than music. What would you use for podcasts? than if you're not thinking of Reaper. I would probably use Reaper because it's a better option or possibly even like Resolve because you can. What is the open source one? It's on Mac as well, but it's on Linux. Audacity? Audacity, yeah, thank you. Maybe that has gotten improved.

37:15They were supposed to do a bunch of UX work and stuff. I found Audacity completely incomprehensible most of the time that I used it, but that was years ago. and I believe Tentacruel got involved a YouTuber in music you said that very cool I think it's a cool person I believe there's this particular melody I should use but I'm not a regular viewer of his so it's like Tentacruel or something to that effect I don't know I'm a regular viewer and you're still getting the melody he must have a pretty good thing going on I looked at it way back and there was a lot of controversy as well because they kind of took over whenever you reference my name I want you to use this particular connotation or not.

37:55Only saying my name or I'll sue you. Just to close the loop to here, I'll pull back the release notes for Fedora 43 just to give proper because I didn't give it proper. It is using GNOME. It is Waylon only. So Fedora 43 is Waylon only. Deprecated X11 support. Looks like GNOME 49, if I can recall that correctly. Maybe GNOME 50 if I'm grokking this stuff? I remember GNOME 2. Wow, showing your age, Lash. I think what I liked about, so far at least, is that it feels a lot like if you said, I like the general user experience of a Mac, but I want Linux. It's like that. It's got a lot of similarities, but not the kind of similarities where you're like, oh, I can tell you're copying and not doing a good job.

38:45It's like, no, you're being inspired by it and you're doing a good job. Like the gestures, the motions are very smooth. And I've just been very impressed with Fedora 43, honestly. And I'm encouraged to try Reaper potentially just to see how it flows for me. There's a lot of things that keep me liking Audition and just DaVinci. Because I, you know, Jared, I really hate the fact that we feel that way. Like while I love having workflow, it sucks that we're strangled by the beast, let's just say. and we're stuck to a platform and we're stuck to our workflow, which is all good things you want to have in a systematized world.

39:24But the lack of freedom in that and the ability to change feels like extreme lock-in that is expensive at worst and just sad at best. It's just not cool to be like that. I hear some people use Blender for video editing as well. Blender is open source. That's like a 3D thing, wasn't it? Yeah, I mean, originally, but it's kind of like, Like, okay, so if you're doing a full-on 3D movie production application, that's a superset of video production. Yeah, sure. And much like a video. It's a superset of a podcast. It's a superset of a podcast. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I'm with you. Yeah, every once in a while I start looking around and thinking, you know, what does better look like?

40:08But then what's her name from the meme that's in my head? Ain't nobody got time for that. You know, like she just starts singing her song. And I'm just like, nah, I got a lot of stuff to get done. You know? I mean, I produced a conference mostly using open source design tools for all the like visual bits. Yeah. And then we had to print things. Like I did almost everything in Inkscape. I like Inkscape. It's very competent. And then they were like, yeah, give me that in CMYK. Right. Colorspace. And it's like, nope. and I'm like yeah maybe I can shift it over to GIMP and do it no how did you do it I paid Adobe for Illustrator because that's the standard for print shops oh yeah see there they are the standard you know yeah it was fine up to that point it was a pro tip never use a gradient in your logo for a conference that was the problem was a gradient yeah it wasn't the only problem but the gradient was a problem Right.

41:12It's a challenge. I feel like there's a lot of things happening at the Linux front on this front. Like there, it's going to be a shift. I think the moment you can actually get creators, I'd say meaning like graphics, obviously, like you were just suggesting there, but like video and audio, like the moment you can get those folks fully over to the Linux world, that's where the tides change. You know, that's where the tides change because being able to, I mean, now if you're trying to buy RAM this moment and it's November 25th right now, not a good time to buy RAM or really any computer parts. They're astronomical price right now.

41:46Some good deals because... I also hear you can't use four sticks anyways. Yeah, I mean, you know, the AM5. And I have a friend who works for AMD. I'm going to ask him about that because that's super sad and see if I can get the behind the scenes. Maybe you can even plot it, but we'll see. But a good friend of mine is an engineer for AMD. But I think, you know, there's a lot of things happening for Linux that's just really, really good. and I know you kind of said what you said about DHH and Amarchi, but I think even that, I think it's cool that what he was able to do with it is cool, that you can make your own Linux distro.

42:22You can't do that with macOS. You have none of that freedom at all and absolutely none of that freedom at Windows. And the fact that you can is really cool, but you got to get people to believe in your opinions. Now, a lot of people are liking Arch because of Amarchi. yeah I like I hear good things about the distro as an experience it's got a lot of good taste in it but it's not for me either and I also don't want to be I feel like that's DHH world and I don't like dislike the guy I don't know what your feelings are on him I don't have a really I'm like a centrist I suppose on DHH neither positive nor negative I think he's got a lot of cool opinions in our world in terms of tech and stuff like that but when it comes to Omarchi I tried it just Just because you literally have to if you're a Linux distro.

43:10I wouldn't say a hopper, but. It sounds like you might be hopping a little bit. Yeah, you might be a hopper, Adam. Is that a hopper, though? I mean, a sampling? What's wrong with being a hopper? I mean, you think it's not a bad thing. Is it a bad thing? I don't know. Maybe I am hopping. I would call it sampling, but sure, I'll hop. Hopping is, it comes in phases, and it seems like you might be in a hopping phase. So server, Ubuntu, all the way. I'm like, all my flows are around Ubuntu. I'm not changing on that front really at all. I'm not tempted to. I know Fedora is flexible enough to be both desktop or server.

43:42Same with Ubuntu, but I know Ubuntu very well. And so I'm happy for that to be my server. On the desktop front, I feel like you kind of have to hop around, especially before you really get to your final resting place, maybe in the Linux world, in the distro world, because I'm still learning a lot about, I would say pretty much learning all brand new stuff when it comes to desktop Linux, which I've never done before. And so I started with Amarchi just because there you go. Then it was Arch itself, which you can see the remnants behind me. And then Fedora 43, which is really awesome. So I'm happy with that exploration so far.

44:20That's been the extent of it. A little Ubuntu desktop, but I didn't think it was, it didn't feel super polished comparative to say Fedora, but it was nice. I like Fedora 43. I like Wayland. I like what they're doing with GNOME. I like the UI design of it. It feels smooth and buttery. So I'm happy there. But I guess I am a hopper in that regard. So I think you're in a perfectly normal I am trying the Linux desktop phase. So this was when I was introduced to Linux and got some help getting started with Linux from a friend. This was in my teens. I ran through, like I started with Slackware. he introduced he kind of forcibly had me try open bsd and free bsd because he was sort of done with linux for now he was playing with solaris and the bsds but then i tried let's see gentu mandrake debian um a few others and then you had all the like nopics and like the live cds that you could just boot into RAM.

45:26And so you could have Linux at school because you had it on a CD and you could boot it. Oh, I definitely did that. Until they started gluing them shut. The CD drives. The CD drives were being glued shut. That was the thing. Mostly to prevent installing games. They didn't care about Linux. Let's be clear. Yeah. They didn't know what that was. You weren't even on the radar. It's all about the gamers. But yeah, I ran through a bunch of distros in the beginning. And then I settled into one for a period of time. Then when I've set up a new work computer for a new company I'm at for Linux, it's just been like Ubuntu, completely stock, installed and things I'm missing that are critical.

46:15And then I live in an editor and a web browser and don't care very much about the OS. But this workstation that I live at now that I run my own business and can screw around more of my time, it's weird and custom. But at a certain point, I just got fed up with poking the desktop and moved on. So it is in whatever state it is that I could never reproduce this. It is not reproducible. You didn't say the term ricing. Would you consider what you do ricing? Ricing? I've never heard that one. Oh, well, let me educate you guys. I'm barely educated myself, okay? Please do. Apparently, I think this is a phenomenon in Linux in particular, is when you dial in your desktop environment.

46:58It's called Ricing. Why? I don't know. Let me look it up real quick. I have not heard that. Ricing refers to the extensive customization of a system's appearance and functionality. So a lot of people would just RICE to show off how it can look and how uniquely different it can look. Not so much its functionality. I need the etymology of this term, though. Like, why are we calling it ricing? The term ricing was inherited from car modification culture, where it was originally a derogatory term for race-inspired cosmetic enhancements, a.k.a. rice. Oh, race-inspired cosmetic enhancements. So just looking cool.

47:36This referred to adding cosmetic parts to inexpensive Asian import cars to make them look. Now, I've riced. Okay, I've riced at least once one car, okay? Now that I'm reading this. not a Linux desktop, but I riced a Honda Del Sol. I added a really cool muffler to it. And it sounded cool. Same engine, still burned oil too. So ricing is similar to like a Rhino or a Dyno. These are what they call like a Republican in name only or a Democrat in name only, where it's like, you say you're this, but you're not. If you're ricing your car, you're saying you're doing it to make it faster, but you're actually not.

48:08You're doing it to make it look nicer or to make it look fast. So when you're ricing your OS, like Losh has just done over the course of many years. He's got it perfectly. No, no, my OS looks terrible. But it does work. Yeah, I crossed the wires. Apparently it's a cosmetic thing and not so much just dialing it in, which he's talking about dialing it in for him. It's also cosmetic. I think it leans more cosmetic. Actually, I think Amarchi is a big old rice. Like that's DHH rice right there, you know? But it's also an opinionated configuration. Yeah. Yeah. My setup, I would say, is highly tuned for certain utility functions.

48:47And that's stuff like, I actually do a bunch of audio and video stuff from Linux, which is generally inadvisable. Why do you do it then? I know a ton of people that go, oh, I use my Mac whenever I record a podcast, but I've made it work. And I made it, to me, it's been fairly reliable, but I also paid too much for gear. So, but I do have a script that resets all my USB controllers because sometimes they just fail. This also can happen on Mac OS. Like sometimes it's just like, I got to reboot something. Sure. Because something is just up. Dropbox. QuickTime. Oh yeah. Adam's having a problem with QuickTime Player, which is a 30 year old Apple software that you'd think would be stable by now, but no.

49:37Yeah, not the way they're treating their OS. Something I miss on Linux for media production is that there is no Rogue Amoeba. If you know the Rogue Amoeba set of audio apps, for example, there's like Pipewire and Jack and all these things. So the whole infrastructure for making the Rogue Amoeba apps is probably more accessible in Linux because it's already there. It's like, it's already a node-based system where you can connect things and yada, yada. And there's UIs for playing around with it, sort of, but nothing to the degree of polish and stability that you find like these hardcore Mac apps doing.

50:24And it's tricky because of course, there's not a market for it until there's more people attracted to doing that. And it's a catch-22, which is always the case. with linux that's what brought me to the mac originally was the third party like indie small software such as quicksilver such as transmit such as rogue amoeba these small software shops that just create the most polished little tools that i loved and they're ridiculously good sometimes yeah and you're like this is just really good software whereas over in windows where i previously was you could find something that does everything but it was like the wild wild west of uis and the quality was massively varying and there was shareware and there was lots of other stuff like shovelware and none of that existed compared to the windows experience i prefer the weirdness of linux the type of weird that the linux app environment is where it's like either you find a script or you might find a ui and it has all the options and all the the knobs and all the weird things and it's kind of hard to understand sometimes but i prefer that to like oh this is a weird windows ui that is quirky and downloaded from a weird website some of those are awesome though like putty or whatever it's like legends but also freaky yeah putty is is legendary and such a weird interface too.

51:53For me, it was the first time I SSH'd was through PuTTY. I think figuring out PuTTY's UI was the hardest part of the SSH process there. What is this happening here? It was very challenging. It was cool once you figured it out. It made sense eventually. I guess all software does if you just rewire your brain to use it. I don't feel like macOS is going in the right direction. Both in terms of encouraging like this this phenomenal grassroots indie app movement that they have but also like just where they're taking things they don't care about that like they don't care about the power users there are parts of Apple that care about the power users but what I use my Mac for like the Mac I have that I use is a MacBook Air M2 MacBook Air it's covered in stickers it goes with me when I travel or when I go to work at other places it's a phenomenal dumb terminal type of browser machine it has ridiculous battery life and everything it has a unix underneath it so i can do terminal things i'm perfectly happy with that eventually the mac os might eject me uh it has in the past like where I essentially abandoned it.

53:16But it's just like, it's very good laptops. I was very hopeful about Framework, but I'm not thrilled about, well, that gets us back into Omarchi. But yeah, they're making choices that I disagree with, which is a bummer because on the whole, Framework was doing what I'd like to see from hardware. What is their choice? I'm not familiar with the choice. Oh, so they're funding Omarchi development and also some other controversial developers. So it's not so much technical, but social. No, no, no. It's ideological and political from my perspective.

54:07Well, friends, I'm here with a good friend of mine again, Kyle Galbraith, co-founder and CEO of depot.dev. Kyle, we are in an era of disruption, right? I would also describe it as rethinking what we thought was true. And I guess that's kind of the definition of disruption. But from your perspective, how are teams, reliability teams, CICD, pipeline teams, how are they all rethinking things? And where does depot fit into that? In the conversations that I have with customers, a lot of DevOps teams, platform teams, teams, site reliability teams, they're really looking at this new era of software engineering that we're all living in.

54:44And they're starting to question like the bottleneck is no longer the act of writing code. The bottleneck is shifting. The most time consuming part is integrating the code. It's everything that comes after. It's the build. It's the pull request review. It's the deployment. It's the getting it into production. Once it's in production, It's scaling up support teams to support it. It's adding documentation, all of these downstream problems. And so through the lens of Depot, what we're really starting to think about is there's a very realistic possibility that within the next two to three years, maybe even sooner, that we're going to enter a world where an engineering team of three people could theoretically have the velocity of an engineering team of 300 people.

55:28And what's the consequences of that? What's the consequences of the code velocity spiking up to that level with such a small team? There's no way three engineers are going to be able to code review all of the code that's being created if there's three engineers and 297 agents also creating features and fixing bugs. So that's just like from a pull request perspective. But then you think about it through a build lens too of if your builds take 20 minutes with three humans and now you're going to have three humans and 297 agents also running. Well, like you definitely don't want your builds taking 20 minutes because now like the entire pinch point is the build pipeline.

56:08And so we're starting to think a lot about how do we eliminate the bottlenecks that come downstream and what can we do with Depot that streamlines that? So obviously, friends, we are in an era of disruption. Things are changing. You know it. I know it. That's how it is. And the thing with production and what Kyle's talking about here is how in the world do you get your bills to be faster? How do you get them to be more reliable, faster, more observability around those deployments? You need it. It's required. And Depot is there to help you. So a good first step is to go to depot.dev, get faster, try their trial.

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58:40Here's a thought I've had recently, and I think Adam's made me think this thought. I don't think I'm a power user anymore. I just feel like I'm a regular user. You're just a developer-style user. Yeah, yeah, I'm dicing. Developer tools. Yeah, exactly. But it's not exactly a niche. It's a very common user. No, it's not anymore, is it? I just don't do weird stuff that much. I'm just trying to write software. That's the weirdest thing I do is I like code. but everything else I do is pretty normal computer stuff and so I don't bump up against the limitations that mac os I see the headlines and I definitely see the direction they're heading and I know about the gatekeeper stuff and now I'm talking technical gatekeeper not the social or political gatekeeping um like I know that they're definitely moving more and more away from tinkerers and power users and like my ability to like call it my own computer and intellectually i just i despise that like i can have a computer that i can't control and do whatever i want on it but practically i just don't care because i just don't ever it doesn't really affect you no no it doesn't it just doesn't really and so i don't have the i mean wanderlust is the wrong idea or the wrong word to it but like that like adam is he's hot he's he's ricing or he's hopping he's whatever he's doing he's sampling because you know he wants to do stuff that mac os is holding him back from which is mostly like hardware stuff but it's stuff he wants to do and i just really hard to get four dims into into a yeah man the four dim problem is real on the mac side for sure also jared i gotta acknowledge uh thank you for wearing a shirt that i produced oh i'm glad you noticed it i put it on I got my Elixir t-shirt on.

1:00:28Now, did you make this design in Linux land? So that design is the official Elixir logos. I did not make it. But somehow you had to send this to the printer. Yeah, I sent the original that I got from Jose to the printer. Printed with permission and all that. Yeah, so you've been doing Elixir stuff. I guess we could hard transition that way via this shirt, which makes it hard swerve. Actually, I can bring us there because you're saying you do development and you don't hit weird quirks with like macOS and stuff. Yeah, not really. So I used to mostly do Elixir development like straight up web dev and generally did not have problems because a lot of Elixir development happens on macOS.

1:01:13It's pretty straightforward. But I've increasingly been doing embedded Linux and Elixir development. And that takes me straight out of the mainstream. I compile Linux kernels multiple times a day. And like BuildRoot, the thing I use for building Linux kernels, does not run on Mac OS. So you can run it in Docker, but it's a lot slower. I do not run Docker for that reason. Yeah. And in this case, it's just like raw compiles and like the disk abstractions for Docker slows everything down. Actually, Macs are super fast at doing all these compiles. If you just put a Linux virtual machine in them. So abstracted, they're very fast.

1:02:05So what have you been working on then? You're making some embedded systems here? Yeah, so there is an embedded Linux framework. It's an IoT framework, but I have to say embedded Linux so that the embedded microcontroller people don't get mad because they'll go, oh, you call that embedded these days? Oh, yeah, yes, I know you're dealing with kilobytes and I'm dealing with gigabytes. It's fine. Like, it's still called embedded by some people. Yeah, you're still embedding that. it's still a single purpose device and everything's locked down and yada yada so the nerves project and the nerves uh framework so nerves-project.org it's an open source framework for and it's a very opinionated framework for building iot devices and smart devices it's ideal for anything that would already run linux so smart home hubs uh smart thermostats that kind of thing usually things that have power and usually things that need to do a lot of networking or where it makes sense to do higher level of abstraction development because you have a lot of stuff to connect and build so it kind of lines up with what erlang and elixir consequently was originally for like erlang was for telecom systems and telecom switches are single purpose devices they're just meant to do a ton of things.

1:03:35They're not like an air quality sensor. They do a lot more. But fundamentally, it's just like you want a thin layer of OS and then you have the Beam virtual machine, which is like an OS unto itself. It does a lot of stuff and you can operate it much like an OS. You can stop and start things. It does a lot of the concurrency. You can introspect what's going on in the system. And you get that on top of a very slim Linux system. so just an embedded very tiny linux system and then on top of that you build your app in elixir or in erlang or i believe you can should be able to do it in gleam as well though it's i don't think anyone's really pushed that path but any beam language will run on it and i started using nerves when i was getting curious about elixir so that was like seven eight years ago something like that and i poked around and i implement like a little e-ink display on a raspberry pi and it was a ton of fun and super friendly community and it got me sort of practiced with elixir in just hobbyist projects and then i worked elixir did web systems and stuff and but i've kept coming back to nerves off and on and tracked it and i started doing the nerves newsletter to keep people posted about what's happening in nerves and stuff so eventually i fell into the nerves core team and started i started doing a lot more nerves projects and i found my first nerves oriented client that wanted me to help them get from like they they were spinning up a new hardware product and they wanted to use nerves but they wanted some reassurance about how they were going about it because they were new to elixir sure and then i picked up other clients that are also nerve-centric and i've done a lot of talks on nerves at this point i've done a lot of a lot of library development i've worked with multiple companies on their nerves devices so that's kind of what i do now and i've started so nerves comes with well there's a there's a sibling project called nerves hub which is over the air firmware updates so it's a service that You can spin up.

1:05:56So you can self-host it, or you can go to NervesCloud.com, which is our little venture, completely bootstrapped at this point. We were considering VC backing, but then we looked at the market and realized, no, no, that's not happening right now because it's not an AI play. Right, Nerves AI Hub, and then you're talking. Yeah, yeah, NervesCloud.ai. Exactly. but it's essentially for keeping your fleet up to date checking in on the health of devices making sure that you can send updates to devices and recover them if there are issues that kind of thing so NERVS comes with a lot of solid opinions about how to set up embedded devices stuff you don't necessarily think about when you're new so it's actually a pretty good learning experience for getting into embedded I come from web dev so I didn't know embedded And my first impulse for building an embedded system would have been slap Debian on it.

1:06:57But it's kind of a tricky thing to live with, to have Debian. Like, there are definitely products that do this and they can absolutely work. But how consistent is apt-get update, apt-get upgrade? Are you confident that the system will come back if you reboot after that? How confident? Drive a thousand miles confident. Right. Send someone on a two-week trip to the middle of Africa confident. This is like embedded devices end up in weird places. Good excuse for vacation though, right? I gotta go to... Yeah, okay. Let's go with industrial laser is down and now confident. It's just a big problem if your updates fail.

1:07:48Yeah. So typically what embedded devices do is they have an A and B partition. This is a blue-green deploy, essentially, where you write to the unused partition. You flip a flag that says, try to boot that one. It reboots, comes up, and if it succeeds, it marks that as, good, we're staying on this. And if it doesn't, it should switch back automatically. It should switch back. Does it always switch back? So there's a bunch of different mechanisms and it depends on bootloader support and if you are making good choices about health checks and stuff. But the mechanisms are there for making a very reliable switch back and forth.

1:08:34So Nerves provides that or there's a distro that's non-Debian that provides that and then Nerves sits on top. So Nerves builds on top of an embedded Linux project called Buildroot. Okay, that's Buildroot. Oh, gotcha. Yeah. It builds your Linux kernel. It builds your root file system. So all the various binaries and things you need for running. So usually a busy box with a bunch of commands like ls and cat and all the good stuff. And usually a bootloader. So uBoot is a very popular one. But if you're running Raspberry Pis, for example, you just use their kind of strange bootloader setup, which goes through the GPU for some reason, video core.

1:09:21It's strange, but it's a broad company. And right now I'm working with a project which uses something called Amboot, which is different. And I don't love it, but it works. But it's like embedded devices are very finicky and it's very hardware dependent. so when you pick up like nerves you should look at the list of supported systems to start with once you get deeper into it you can actually bring up a new board or or something but we support all the all the raspberry pi boards all the sort of linux level ones not the pi pico because that's a microcontroller but um like beagle bone black is an old classic we have a bunch of newer ones and then there's a bunch of community contributed ones as well so i i have a bunch of various uh accidental linux device purchases like this is a raspberry pi but it has a i'm holding it up to the camera which is great podcast um but it has a display and it has a keyboard and a actually a trackball wow it's the clockwork pi u console can you show that more can you do some flipping around with it show me the back of it if you don't mind oh yeah yeah it's weird it has a sort of thing you can hang it on i don't know why a little heat sink is that a heat sink this uh no it's just space it's just space for the batteries okay cool but it's a neat thing and then there's like seed studio who does a nice industrial kiosk which is just also just a raspberry pi but extra hardware on top it's just a ton of fun stuff so i have a ridiculous amount of embedded hardware at home right now.

1:11:08Tons of fun, but this also leads to me compiling the Linux kernel very frequently. Does Zima board approach that world? I know it competes with Raspberry Pi to some degree as a single-board computer, but does Zima board kind of... I mean, you could, if it's Intel, if we have a system for generic x86, you could probably just run that on top of it. It's got a cool design to it. It's got a heatsink built into it. it's got power you can plug drives into it uh sata drives into it for example i think it's got a pcie slot where you can throw on a gpu or a little bonus thing if you want to like throw on a 10 gigabit network or something like that i just wondered if that was supported as part of that world too or if it's just like raspberry pi type things this is cute uh no uh this would probably work it might be that the it might require some driver here and there it depends on the linux support essentially.

1:12:01And depending on how new everything is, you might need to pull in a slightly newer or slightly patched Linux. There's always a bunch of details. You're embedding your own though, so can you... It sounds like you're compiling your own kernel, so couldn't you just not depend on, just make your own kernel kind of thing? Essentially, what happens if you have a slightly off-the-golden path setup is that you might have to tweak it yeah and that is somewhere in between straightforward or terrible depending on your experience with linux your experience and your luck essentially yeah there's a fair chance that this just because it's an x86 board just works yeah but it might not work at full speed for example if it's like oh this processor so new or this RAM only needs extra drivers to run at full speed or whatever.

1:13:05Or maybe four sticks doesn't work. That's right. There's a lot of details to hardware. Is central lane the Raspberry Pi then? A Raspberry Pi is the absolutely easiest way to get started. Just grab a Pi 4 or 5 and

1:13:25you essentially just start up one of our sample projects or you can grab something like NERVS Livebook, which is a cool project. You've had Jose Willim on the show. He's probably mentioned Livebook, but it's like Code Notebooks. So you can get the NERVS device to start with a Code Notebook so you can run a bunch of things and a bunch of examples on the device through your browser to sort of try things and get started. But yeah, people build very real products with this. but there are entry points for hobbyists. But the focus of the framework is actually the very serious end of things. It's like we try to be very friendly and welcoming because a lot of people seem to learn.

1:14:11What's serious to you? So one of my clients recently, when they're talking about deployment, it's more than 100 ,000 devices. Wow, yeah, it's a lot. It's smart thermostats across homes in the US. So if you screw them up, people would be pretty mad, especially if their thermostat starts misbehaving. Very noticeable. Is that Pika's then in that case, or is that still a Raspberry Pi of sorts in that deployment, or is that custom PCBs kind of thing? Entirely custom board. Gotcha. Yeah. So they've designed a fully custom board. I don't have one within reach but they have a few different thermostats interesting Smartrent is the company in question so you can do serious business with it but you can also do side business which is just fun business I can do incredibly silly things with it I have a sensor in my greenhouse right now that runs NERVS that I integrate with my home assistant so my wife can get notifications when the greenhouse is too warm or too cold.

1:15:27Right now it's always too cold because it's the winter in Sweden or starting to become winter in Sweden. But we've set it up for the coming season. I just recently discovered that we have a way to build home assistant things with NERVs and now I'm abusing it. Right. So where is she getting her notifications and how? On the phone. Because she has the home assistant app. so her phone is addressable within Home Assistant. And then I can just go, okay, when the temperature is below this, send a notification to her. If it's above this, send a notification to her. Describe the architecture of Home Assistant in a house.

1:16:10You have one device that runs Home Assistant somewhere. That's kind of your server in some sense. Minus a Raspberry Pi that only runs Home Assistant. and then in my case i've slapped in some power over ethernet zigbee controllers to be able to use zigbee devices so that's radio radio controlled lights and stuff ikea's stuff is zigbee so i'm living the swedish dream i guess ikea's coming out with a whole new set of yeah but but i don't have to buy their hubs i just connect their devices to my controller. Zigbee lets it be compatible, right? It's about Zigbee, not so much the hub itself. Yeah, so it's like, usually you pick Zigbee or Z-Wave and that's your life.

1:17:04Are you Zigbee for life then? I think I'm pretty, right now I'm definitely Zigbee. I need to make a serious investment to switch. So what's the, did you do the Zigbee Z-Wave compare and contrast? Did you shop it hard or were you just like, well, Zigbee's... Well, Frank Hunlath stared hard at me. So he's the guy who created NERVS because the company that he worked at, Smart Rent, they use Z-Wave. And he was like, you're not using Z-Wave? I'm like, well, I've heard good things about Zigbee and also Ikea. So I can afford lamps, lots of lights. I'm curious why you choose to run that on a Raspberry Pi versus, say, a virtual machine or something like that, where you can have maybe a beefy machine.

1:17:57I don't really have a server set up at home. Okay. I'd like to, but I haven't bothered yet. Okay. Okay. And also one of the nice things about setting up Home Assistant OS on a Raspberry Pi is that it takes up sort of the entire Pi, but it can also update. Actually, it is built on build root and uses an AB partition type setup for updates. It is very close to a Nerves device, but it runs Python instead. but yeah it seemed like a reasonable setup for my needs. At some point I might migrate it but this is also like Home Assistant is new to me. I never bothered getting into it but I listened to the self-hosted podcast for years.

1:18:49Eventually I'm like yeah okay it's time. I need somewhere to report this information where my wife can get at it. I like that you're using it That makes me think more like just having home assistant in obviously a home, but I would say a home lab or some sort of lab environment where you're experimenting and building things. Having a home assistant be that conduit that you can, I know it has a voice assistant built into it. I know you can, these are all things I want to do eventually. I just haven't gotten there yet. So I'm sure you'll nod on the things you're probably getting tickled with, but you can have an API key to a local LLM.

1:19:26So maybe you run a llama somewhere in your network or on the actual device itself. Your mileage may vary, you know, that this home assistant world becomes a centerpiece. And it sounds like you've like tapped into the notification ability because you don't have to run a service or pay an external service to map a notification up to the cloud and back down to your wife. Just because your greenhouses temperature goes up or down as you want to. That's the home assistant world is really, really interesting to me. I haven't had time to tinker with it yet, but I'm I am curious, though. It's going to eat all of your time.

1:19:57It is such a tinker hole. It is amazing, but also terrifying. I want to do stuff with e-ink too. You got me excited about this. Build root, e-ink, nerves, notifications, home assistant. All those things to me is just like, just forget the entire thing. Whatever else is out there and just do that. sleep a little tiny bit and then do that all the time yeah yeah i've kind of optimized my life so that i get to tinker with hardware uh professionally at this point sounds like it yeah yeah it's not a bad not a bad scheme but actually on the e-ink part the little e-ink display i i did uh for my first nerfs project was uh it was way back but with the conference that we did uh it was goat Elixir.

1:20:50So it was here in tiny little Vaudabadi. I pulled in nearly 200 people, 150 attendees, about 30 speakers and a bunch of volunteers and stuff. And we did three days of Elixir. One of the days were dedicated to NERVS. And it was a great time and something we managed to score a sponsorship for, actually specifically from Tigris. You're familiar with them. they supported us with some budget for hardware so we made custom hardware for the conference big shout out to gus workman he's also on the nerves core team he wasn't at the time but he designed an e-ink display that could also with a battery a few buttons and a tiny little processor, pretty cheap one that he'd been working with, an all-winner of some sort, and made it run NERVS.

1:21:54And it has a Wi-Fi chip on it. So every attendee got a little e-ink display as part of the conference. That's sick. Yeah, it was kind of wild. Could you send them messages via, like could you broadcast and everybody's e-ink display updates at the same time? Yeah, I mean, it would pull down the schedule and show that. And if you futz around for long enough, you'd find a Rickroll. And there were a few things in it. It worked really well, like the software and the networking could have needed more work. But Gus already put in a heroic effort to get it out at all. it was real real real good people enjoyed it and we'll probably I hope to make more of these conferences and if so we'll probably iterate on the concept because it was a it was a blast and just like e-ink displays are so satisfying to people and so interesting to people and just getting getting devices into programmers hands where they can show something in the real world and interact with button presses and stuff.

1:23:08It's a very, very special feeling for like a group of professionals that generally just do intangible web stuff or backend things. It's just like suddenly things are happening in the real world and it's wild. Yeah, your display is e-ink. I mean, even in a home, you could do a lot of cool stuff that you would normally maybe buy an expensive or be tempted to buy an expensive iPad for when you really just want a trusty display and maybe a stable OS to broadcast to and Wi-Fi accessible, et cetera, you can do with low-powered e-ink displays or RPi or even a Pico maybe. Do Picos tap into stuff like that?

1:23:49Are they limited? A Pico could drive an e-ink display, but programming a Pico is more of a pain in the rear than the larger Pis. But they can run very well off a battery, so there's a trade-off there. How about older RPIs? Can you do like RPI 3s or even older generations? Do you have to be current like 4 plus? Yeah, I mean we still support the RPI 1. Oh, wow, okay. But it's a pain in the rear again because it does not have networking built in. You need a Wi-Fi USB adapter. There you go. I have a Raspberry Pi that's not doing anything. Maybe I should dive into this world. Yeah. I mean, spin up nerves on it and then think about what you might do with it.

1:24:40And then my expectation is that you're going to put it back in the drawer because I don't think you have a plan for what you want to do with any particular hardware. I still have one project that I never did that I should do. I think the last time I talked about it was when we had a fellow on talking about automating your house with python or something like that which is a very similar to yours greenhouse temperature detector uh icebox temperature detector so if the icebox was holds a bunch of frozen meat breaks well it's down in our storage room so we don't go down there enough to actually happen upon it we might lose all that meat and so if i could detect anomalies in temperature although I want too warm not too cold necessarily.

1:25:27Too cold is just fine. I just want to know about it before my meat all goes bad. So that would require a temperature sensor and probably a home assistant I suppose to be able to get the notification and maybe basically the exact setup you have with different code. Yeah, pretty much. Just send me a link to your repo. I'll just deploy that sucker. What do you do for metrics and observability? Do you get into dashboarding of this stuff at all or Prometheus? So the way I keep track of how my device is doing is actually in Herb's cloud because I know the guy who runs it. It's me and my co-founder. But I don't track like, oh, what's the CPU of my sensor over like the last three months because I don't care.

1:26:16But I have whatever history. I don't remember what our retention is. It's probably like a couple of weeks. But Nervs Cloud will by default track a bunch of health metrics for your devices as they connect and stay connected. But that's about it. But I also don't need more than like, is it reporting or not? If it's reporting in with data that looks reasonable, I'm perfectly happy. But if I have a problem with my device, I can go to NERS Cloud. I can open a console into it and get the IX prompt and operate it as any Beam system. So I can go, hey, actually, what processes are running? Hey, why is this not running?

1:27:03Oh, let's check the logs. Let's check the kernel logs. Let's investigate. It's like I get access both to the Linux system and the higher level Beam system. And I can poke around with that from my OTA platform in a web browser. So that's kind of convenient. What about a dead man switch? So if... Well, if my device fails. If someone lets go of the device. No. Well, I'm thinking about your greenhouse now. Or I'm thinking about my freezer, which is my device is measuring temperature and reporting anomalies but if the device itself fails it's no longer reporting but if there was some sort of dead man switch that's like hey your device is no longer active that's the notification that I want I believe you could set up an automation in Home Assistant that goes hey if you haven't seen this device for this long I haven't looked at that but that's something worth looking at because the greenhouse thing does run out of battery frequently because we don't have power in the greenhouse currently.

1:28:05Ideally, these things just run on power. Or maybe I will actually at some point bother with a microcontroller because those sip power and can run for a couple of years off of a couple of AA batteries. It depends kind of what you're setting up. That's interesting. It took me all of like four hours to set up, to essentially fully set up sensors with NrVs. It would take me more than four hours with microcontrollers because I'm not as well versed with them. I think with ESP Home, you could do it pretty quick if you know what you're doing. I don't know ESP Home yet, so I might get there. But something I really like about working with NrVs is that it lets me take all the know-how I have from web development and my Elixir development and just apply it on top of hardware.

1:29:03So I can still do my web requests. I can talk to the internet. I can do all that stuff. I can set up a web server and then that's my local web UI for that device. But it's doing something that's much more embodied, I guess. It's in the real world. it can help me switch relays or it can like we're probably going to get um a watering system that we can integrate with home assistant so that we can actually go hey uh this moisture sensor says things are getting a bit dry let's run the let's run the water for a for a while or we have this level in the tank we might as well run some water that's cool stuff i mean that's a garden so So tell me how this does or does not fit into this world.

1:29:57So I run Plex and I don't have any time to do this, but I have the idea mostly in my brain. I'd like to have a digital display outside of my media room that has a now showing and it's data from Plex. So I don't want to go and pull down the album art. I've already chosen it inside of Plex for my stuff. I want that kind of thing there. I got some other ideas for it too that are more like a mailing list or at least a page I can send people to to say, hey, if you want to come watch a movie at my house, here are all the movies we have available. That way I'm not like, well, if you could just sit down with me for an hour, let's decide what movie to watch or whatever.

1:30:36And then we're like just looking around my playlist or whatever. A little bit more user friendly on that front, but more so the now showing. It doesn't e-ink, e-ink doesn't sound fun for that because this is more visual, right? Yeah. But how does that, what could I do in the NERV world or in this world? Is that even a fit for this? I mean, if you find a tablet that you would like to set up in your home that you can run off of a Raspberry Pi essentially. Or just any display and just smuggle a Pi behind it. Like if you have a small TV, a large TV on your wall, it's fairly easy to just, yeah, shove a Pi behind it.

1:31:23And then it's a matter of starting up a kiosk. And Nrv's, we have a bunch of kiosk systems right now. The most up-to-date ones are for the Pi 4 and 5. And with them, you get like a minimal web browser and a minimum compositor like a a wayland alternative essentially it's weston plus cog which is less demanding than like chromium on top of on top of a full wayland and then you just can just tell it oh load this web page and whether you want to build that web page yourself with the phoenix web framework that's one option or you can vibe code it i guess They actually do pretty well on design, typically, those things.

1:32:07And I believe Plex has all the APIs you would need. But I think the fastest path to success for just now playing is probably Home Assistant. Because I think Plex can probably shove any information you want into Home Assistant. It's like people will have built all the integrations. And then there's probably just a dashboard you can build up and go, hey, open this URL to show my dashboard, please. Yeah, I'm even thinking about like N8N. Have you played with that at all? N8N, no. Yeah, gosh, this will break your mind. N8N, I believe, N8N.io. It's like Zapier. It's like if this, then that, but it's open source.

1:32:52I've seen some people really do some cool stuff. You can feed things into LLMs. You can go and pull back linear tickets and get commits and fake your stand-up by shoving all your activity into an LLM. Be like, this is what I did yesterday, you know, kind of thing. I just saw a cool dude on YouTube mention that's why. That's my idea. It's actually his idea, not mine. Do you want to sing his name for us? Can you sing his name? I don't know. Let me see if I can sing his name. I'll keep talking while I search this, but that seemed pretty interesting to do that kind of thing where you can like end it in something.

1:33:22Like now Plex is playing or now something is happening and then it's more of a reactive display versus me having to program it on there. I was just thinking like, what kind of smarts do I need to do to build out the display that isn't going to be a Mac? It's going to be a Linux. RPI sounds like it should be, but I've never done anything beyond just the RPI sitting there doing its RPI thing with no display. It's really the most of it's been, has been a POE hat to just avoid the additional power brick or maybe network. and run Pi. Oh, that's about the extent I've ever utilized my RPIs. And I got two Raspberry Pi 4s, one with 4 gigs and one with 8 gigs.

1:34:04So they're both very capable, and I have no use case for them currently. Yeah, I mean, you could fairly quickly install a little bit of the Elixir tooling, flash, well, grab the Nerves kiosk example repo and build and flash that thing and the only thing you probably want to edit is like which URL does it open and that's a mighty easy find and replace yeah this might be a curveball but I don't think this thing's open source Adam I think it's just like it's fair source sustainable source license something well they said it was open source I'm not versed in it yet but I heard good things about it it's open the code is available to see They call it Fair Coach.

1:34:55Their license looks somewhat proprietary. It sounds like it's a BSL type deal. It seems free for personal use. Certain files are not licensed. Other files are like sustainable use license. And then other files, if they contain.ee in their file name, you have to hold a valid N8N enterprise license. So some muddy waters on this one. Okay. Muddy the waters on that one. I thought they said it was core open source, like open core. Like some of it was and some of it wasn't. To close the loop, though, it's Dreams of Code. Dreams of Code on YouTube is the channel. How do you sing that, though? I don't sing, Jared.

1:35:38I just speak very eloquently, melliflessly, as they may say. They might. Dreamsofcode.io, cool stuff there. I've watched their videos. I don't know. I can't remember the fellow's name. I'm trying to find it. but dreams of code is the this is his idea yeah it's his idea he did this he's like hey i gotta do stand up uh stand up sucks i always forget what i did and so he built a thing with n8n to pull back data from git from the previous day uh so whichever repos may be in the spectrum that he'd give stand-ups on pull back some linear details from like linear tracking their engineering practices or whatever.

1:36:18And I think maybe a couple more sources and then fed that to the LLM and the LLM, you know, messaged him via Slack personally, what he did yesterday. And I thought that was, you know, interesting, you know, it kind of gave me some ideas. I'm very glad that I currently only work with clients who don't have the time to have standups with me. I work in weird corners of their efforts. So it's like, yeah, it's usually me and one or two other people that chat when we need anything yeah no no need for stand-ups uh awareness but not stand-ups gosh and even like a standing stand-up every day is like especially in like a company i would say really of any size is almost like a waste of time that could totally be not a meeting now if you're doing it for the personal reasons for the interpersonal relationships it's a different story but you know i think even then your mileage may vary it can be done well uh especially in physical office situations it's like yeah it can be kind of neat to just all be face to face and share what you're working on so people can resolve things but yeah that's uh i'm glad to not be pulled in to that because my my schedule is scattershot as it is it's like spread all all over the place i do a lot i'll do a lot of different things and I kind of like it that way and spending any time on coordinating would eat through it quickly.

1:37:52Maybe as a close, could you map out in like, let's say a minute or a minute and a half, someone who's uninitiated, they've listened, they've been like curious, maybe they like me, they got an RPI sitting around, no use. What's a good first next step? What are some good resources? Can you just rattle those off? Give somebody a map to satiate that curiosity. Yeah, so the best place to go would be nurseproject.org or search for nurse project. And you can click learn and then you can go to installation or getting started. You'll end up needing to do the installation even if you go to getting started.

1:38:35So maybe start there. and then you can run through that that has good getting started instructions and depending on kind of what you want to do if you just want to noodle around i would aim for nerves livebook which is like an interactive code notebook experience where you can get something that does something onto your device pretty quick but it's not for any specific purpose it's mostly for noodling around and getting a little bit situated. If you want to build a specific project, I would follow the guide for setting up a NERVS project. And that usually means doing Elixir development. So then you kind of hit a fork in the road.

1:39:23Do you know Elixir? If you know Elixir, it's just an Elixir project. figure out the nerves parts, have fun. If you don't know Elixir, you should probably also look into Elixir a little bit. So elixirlang.org is pretty good for that. Also, I have a YouTube channel with a few videos. You can look at my YouTube videos. I don't think they're the probably best introduction to Elixir, but they're all right. Depends on sort of how you like to learn as well. I'm born and raised on text tutorials. don't put too many pictures in my tutorials or i get annoyed but people are different and want different things so also you can join the elixir discord is pretty good to join and we have a nerfs channel that's pretty active and we're happy to have new people come in ask questions you can also ask your questions on the elixir forum if you want sort of the more async cycle.

1:40:23And it's also very, very helpful to other people because it's searchable. But yeah, dive in, try it. It's not dangerous. It doesn't bite. And depending on sort of where you're coming from, it might feel straightforward or it might feel slightly challenging. But it has taught me embedded Linux development over time because NERVS contains a lot of accumulated embedded wisdom that's encoded in opinions. And you might swear at it at certain points and then you're like, yeah, okay. I know why they did this. This makes sense as you earn your wisdom. At what point will they have to compile their own Linux kernel?

1:41:07Only if they go to your level where they're helping clients deploy updated devices across a thousand hardware devices kind of thing. Is that the scenario where you have to compile your own kernel? No, the moment they want FFmpeg probably. No, you don't have to compile the kernel. You probably end up compiling a kernel at that point, but you don't actually have to touch the kernel to install FFmpeg, but you do have to touch the sort of underpinnings. Or when you need some particular supporting library for some particular specific thing you're doing that... So we pack in a lot of the default Raspberry Pi tooling.

1:41:48So for example, if you want to work with a Raspberry Pi camera, the tools are already there. And there's a superb OpenCV bindings library for Elixir called eVision. If you install that one, that one just pulls in OpenCV without you needing to touch the Nerve system. But not everything is that nice. So you can find places where it's like, oh, yeah, we don't have this built in why don't we have FFmpeg built in well FFmpeg is huge comparatively so a Nrv's default image I believe is about 30 megs maybe 40 at this point but it's in that range so it's not a big install like the entire image for the Nrv's device is 30 to 40 megs and that's very good for when you're building devices and especially when you need to ship updates to devices.

1:42:48It makes the updates faster, safer, all that good stuff. So it's a good thing to keep things lean. The Raspberry Pi images actually have some fat that we could definitely trim if we're optimizing, but we're actually optimizing those a little bit more for adoption so that the things you want to try are more likely to work but it's a balancing act so it's i would say it's a beginner friendly ecosystem but it's focused on production grade things so production grade wins over ease of use in the end in the trade-offs i like the idea of going to a world like this where you can play and have the freedom to play but if you were like wow i'm kind of serious about this well you're already in a place where you could easily just get serious about what you're playing with and either just you know migrate your mindset or you know just change what you're doing and now you're actually working on something serious versus like just this play world those are cool but you know when you want to graduate to the next thing it's it's already you're currently already in the in the professional mindset of being able to deploy serious stuff yeah and the the development loop of embedded devices can be pretty annoying it's just like you build some more code you ship it over to the pi you run it there or you develop on the pi but how do you do your do you do proper source control when you're doing that and it's like the workflow is kind of weird but for nerves you develop on your on your host machine like your laptop or regular computer and then you ship updates over and when you're iterating on something where you need to cycle really fast you might actually just be pasting code over the repl because you can do that in elixir but when you need to build something and then ship it over it's just like mix upload and then it goes and it ships over ssh and the device reboots and comes back with the new code so probably that's a minute loop maybe 45 second loop from yeah it depends like yeah it depends on your image size depends on your boot times but but it's a pretty quick loop for embedded but what i found most compelling about this whole setup like i've set up raspberry pi's with raspberry pi os and then i follow this tutorial to install this thing and i set up the camera using this tutorial and then i set up open cv and some ml thing with this tutorial and it's like oh i have it all working okay let's let's make a copy of this image because i could never ever get to this state again without retracing all the steps because it's not reproducible in that way.

1:45:30It's an entire desktop OS. And the next time you would install it, it would be different. But if you build a NERVs project, you have lock dependencies. So it's like, it's this version of NERVs, this particular system that you're using for the Raspberry Pi. So you're always getting the same Linux kernel, yada, yada, yada. It's all deterministic and next time you pick up your nerves project the only thing that can break sort of your build for that is either if there's something weird about the build tooling that has happened in between like oh your mac os has a hard time building your erlang version or something but that's very rare but it can happen um but if if you can build it you have your old working thing and you can just chip it.

1:46:21I talked to one of the NERVS core team members and he's like, yeah, I just realized I haven't updated this thing in a while. It's like on an eight-year-old version of NERVS and Elixir. It's still running fine. It's doing everything it's supposed to be doing. I should probably update it, but I don't have to. That's cool. Yeah, it would probably still build. He might have to jump through some hoops to get the older build to work. It would be fine on Linux, I expect. You got a podcast about this, you said. You got a newsletter, you got your own blog. We have all those things in the show notes, of course.

1:46:59But rattle off a couple URLs and we'll call this show done. Yeah, so for podcast listeners, Beam Radio, so beamrad.io. That is where we talk about the Beam, Elixir, Erlang, Gleam, the new hotness in the Beam ecosystem. them. Then there's underjord.io, which is my website and blog. I actually plan to write something about this whole home assistant setup I've been doing and just sort of run through a basic tutorial of what I've done so that people can reproduce it. Because I think it'll be interesting to a subset of people out there. And there's a YouTube channel. You can find it from my website and otherwise nurseproject.org and if you want to do over the air updates for very serious usage or for hobbyist usage, it's free for hobbyist usage and you can try it for free if you're a commercial user but nursecloud.com is what we're trying to make happen I suppose it's active, people are using it, we have production customers so So happy to talk over the air updates.

1:48:15And actually that extends to wider than just NERVs. We are looking to support more. So if you want to update Android devices or Yocto devices, there's so much out there. It's a funny world. Embedded is incredibly fractured. There are no standards. It's like the Linux desktop popping, but weirder. All things embedded. love it always great to catch up yeah yeah it's been a while it's been a long time because you can't help it and uh stay even cooler as a person there you go all right bye friends bye losh bye friends bye now can you believe november's all but over that means we are just a few weeks away from our eighth annual state of the log episode which also means we'll be accepting listener voicemails real soon.

1:49:09So start thinking about your favorite episodes, themes, guests, or whatever else you'd like to say to us as we close out 2025. I'll have the form all set up and we'll send out the official first call on Monday's news episode. Thanks again to our partners at Fly.io and to our sponsors of this episode, TigerData.com, AugmentCo.com, Depot.dev, and Framer.com slash design. Check out their wares, why don't you? They're good and they support us. And if slash when you sign up, tell them changelog sent you. They love it when that happens and so do we. Next week on the pod, news on Monday, Amazon CTO, Warner Vogels predicts the future on Wednesday.

1:49:52And on Friday, our old friend Nick Neesey returns to give us his latest take on the new browser wars. Have yourself a wonderful weekend. Don't overwork to be rich. And let's talk again real soon.

1:50:08Game on.