The Winamp era (Friends)

29:57I'm still listening to the same stuff I found when I was 16, 17. But when you're young, you just want new, new, new, new, new. And first of all, more stuff is new to you because you have less experience with music. But nowadays, I wonder how it is. I guess everything's just available. I think music discovery is so strangely, I wouldn't say broken, but just never fixed. It's never been like, here's the way you find new music. I don't feel like that's even possible. There's nothing in Spotify that attracts me. There's playlists that are made for me based on things, but they're still not helping me discover.

30:31Like I've never discovered Tom Waits, given that I'm a diehard classic rock, you know, kind of in that era fan. And I think he's probably in that in that realm to some degree. Like nothing's ever been great for discovery. Classic for sure. Yeah, definitely classic. I'm not sure about rock. Yeah. Kind of. I don't know. How would you genre-fy Tom Waits? Maybe bluesy, folky? Yeah, I would say like, I mean, he's, I guess the cliche would be that he transcends genre. Sure. But yeah, definitely like blues, blues and rock and maybe some sort of like, you know, bar room jazz kind of stuff. Right. Yeah.

31:09Yeah. I think it's interesting how like, you know, all our algorithms are sort of designed to solve that problem. And I think to some degree they do. Like, I feel like, you know, if you like ask Spotify to like play some artist and it runs out of tracks for that artist, it'll be like, I'm just going to make up some more tracks to play for you. that I think are similar. And I feel like I have discovered some things in that way, which is interesting. You know, I think we have, we had these systems of, you know, libraries and record stores, and they had some discoverability built in, but only sort of as an accidental artifact of, you know, oh, well, we need to find somebody to let you find the thing you want to buy.

31:54and in the process well we have to sort of organize them and then we're going to end up with you know things organized by genre and you'll stumble across you know someone adjacent to the thing that you're looking for and i think you see this like in bookstores too where you're like browsing along you're like oh look there's this like you know i'm in the you know sci-fi section and i've never seen this before this looks interesting and then when we went online and everything you know it's like well if you want the thing you just go straight to the thing you don't need to spend you know waste all this time browsing through but along the way we shed this accidental piece of like well we had this you know browsing based discoverability and in the name of efficiency we sort of let that go which i think is right i don't i'm not passing like a value judgment on it yeah but we're sort of now being like okay well we accidentally had a solution to that problem that maybe wasn't ever designed and it wasn't necessarily perfect but we sort of dropped it and now we're sort of okay how do we backfill that and i think sort of this algorithmic solution is what has emerged but yeah it does make you wonder if there's better or maybe those algorithms will get better over time and but it's uh it is interesting that we had it sort of as a as an accident and now we have to design it from scratch as an actual solution yeah plus we have a gluttony of riches at this point i mean there's so much music that there's something for everybody and there's a lot for everybody.

33:19I mean, you talk about going off the end of a playlist and it just keeps playing. I mean, I hear good new stuff all the time, but I don't really stop to catalog and be like, who's this person? And I'm going to go ahead and dive into their whole back catalog like I used to. Maybe that's just a function of age or time availability as well. But there's like another good song coming on after this. And so maybe things are like less sticky because there's just, especially when you're listening to, a lot of the music I listen to is while working or while coding. And I mean, lo-fi and electronic and stuff like that stuff all just kind of flows into one long life track.

33:58You know, like I can't very easily break out individual pieces and say like, wow. Whereas back in the day, it was just like, well, Sandstorm is all you had access to. So we're all going to like Sandstorm, aren't we? Yeah. In the album era, you probably did form a much closer sort of, you know, relationship with the artist because you're like, well, I make this is my one album that I'm getting this month or whatever. Oh, yeah. And so, like, you know, I'm going to live with it and then I'm going to sort of make a really intentional decision about what I'm getting. And now it is so, you know, OK, well, on to the next thing.

34:32I would be interesting to see how, you know, sort of the younger generations, I say as an old man, will have a really different relationship with music that is maybe more track based. And just I like the song. I don't even know who the artist is or I don't know. It'd be interesting to see. I think there's also this connection. There was actually an announcement, I believe, between it was Meta's music deal. Jared, you may have seen this in Snacks today. Okay. Universal Music Group and Meta expand their partnership as labels lean on social media. So I think today's exposure for, I mean, music is culture or it's representative culture at least.

35:10And it's like the algorithm and what I was talking about, like discovering to me is some version, some pulse towards culture. And that culture could be, hey, I'm X, Y, Z years old, so my culture and desire to tap into it is different than somebody else's. But it's this idea of connecting me to culture that I find relevant to me or a culture I find worthwhile pursuing or understanding more of or being curious about. But this Universal Music Group deal with Meta, I think, is representative of how, I don't want to say young people either, but I feel like just generationally how we tap into or come to know more music.

35:52For example, I didn't know the Watermelon Sugar song from Harry Styles until I heard it via TikTok. And then it was blended. And I'm going to put it in this. Well, maybe, Jared, you can because you'll do the show, mastering at least.

36:18we have a track that we inspired by watermelon sugar and seaside there's this remix that was only on social media only really available on social media was never an official track i'm not even sure if harry styles and this other artist that i have no idea who the name is of this person talking about how we don't connect with the artist because it just sort of goes by so fastly but at the same time i thought it was a really cool blend between watermelon sugar and this song called seaside and anybody who hears it you would think that this that version that remix is the original and if you were like me the first time you ever heard it you only heard this remix version you're like that's the og that's the original and that's not true but the point i'm getting at is that is my exposure to this new music even like mecky bah gosh who's heard the song mecky bah

37:21i have okay good i was i didn't want to be alone here jordan it's very catchy i don't recognize it well it's a viral thing it's a very catchy song yeah there's several like that that you that at least I've discovered, not through pushing play on Spotify or WebAmp or WinAmp or some different version of listening to music. It's been through a swipe or a click or something like that. And it's been the track to someone building something or someone making cookies or whatever it might be. So that's kind of interesting how music exposure has not come from pushing play or an algorithm or a playlist. It's come through interest and following of different creators or influencers or whatever you want to call those folks.

38:08It's that cultural press or swipe that happens that the music comes with it. And I think the labels have now found the new Napster is a swipe away on social media. It's not and it still is free. Like you're not paying necessarily for TikTok or Instagram. You're sort of there and your data is the payment, so to speak. Yeah, the social media specifically, TikTok, Instagram Reels, and then probably in third place, YouTube Shorts. But as I've been, I post our stuff to these places. It's all the same content. People at this point are just posting to everything. But that's definitely become like the new exposure for new artists.

38:50Like you want to go TikTok viral. And so that's changed the actual music as well because now people are then, what do we do? Well, we feed the beast. And they're like, well, what does the algorithm want? Well, these are the kind of songs that are catchy and short and have like 0.7 seconds before the drop or whatever it is you're going to get. There's people out there trying to figure it out and writing music for that, which you can kind of say is a shame because you want to write music for other reasons, but I think it's just a fact of history that the medium very much is the message. It always has been.

39:25And so when people were making albums, they were writing albums. And when people were trying to get TikTok viral, they're going to make TikTok music. You know, that's just kind of how it probably always has been. And so. Yeah. I mean, you think about, I mean, even going back to classical music, right? The sort of publication of music for, you know, to be played in the home. It's like the original album was like a book that you would buy and play at your home piano. And then that goes all the way through to, you know, how did artists write their music to fit on an album? Well, they had to think about their music as a cohesive, you know, nearly hour long piece or whatever.

40:00and maybe that was great maybe that inspired some artists who wanted who were great and that was how they would have wanted to create anyway but then we got to you know the sort of radio play and it's like well now you got to write for the radio and you know we're now in our in our sort of new era but I think there's something interesting about the you know you were saying like discovery of music being both personal but I think there's also this like longing for some kind of you know as we have gone everything is personal right on the internet everything is tailored to you everything is exactly what you want um you know exactly tailored to your taste there's a gluttony of options available to you for you know tailor made to exactly your tastes but i think then we also crave this sort of connection of like well what are the pieces that pull us together you know that we can sit down in this you know in this podcast and have things in common we're like oh yeah the the watermelon sugar song like yeah we all know what that is and i think there's those are like sort of two different pieces there's like what is the thing that is like perfectly going to resonate with me but also what is the thing that's gonna you know i'm gonna get to talk about with my co-workers or you know in the schoolyard or whatever it is yeah schoolyard nice the playground we're on the playground for the for the youngsters for the youngsters out there in the schoolyard gosh well i mean that brought up a memory like literally as you said that when i actually i said playground that brought the memory up but you brought the memory because use that what you said full backstory i remember the very first guns and roses album when i was like fifth or sixth grade on the playground talking about my good friend jason kolik shout out jason we were on the swing set we were talking about you know mr brownstone or whatever like that's crazy how far back that goes for me to remember that album and i'm still listening to the album like almost to this day not on the daily but i will definitely turn on welcome to the jungle and be a very happy person because it's like let me like you said jared let me go lift some weights or throw some kettlebells with that track because it's it's very rocky for sure well friends i'm here in the breaks with one of my new friends over at one password martin shosh software developer at one password on the sdk team one password now has sdks as well Well, it's our CLI that allows you to build secrets management integrations using Go, JavaScript, or Python, and they're available right now.

42:26So Martin, how can developers use these SDKs today? Give me some examples. Yeah, so the CLI was built more for managing your 1Password account and accessing it from the terminal and writing various scripts for local automations. But the SDKs really go a step beyond that, where you can build these automations into other pieces of software. You can run them in cloud functions. You can build them into your natively running desktop apps, which now are also able to leverage functionality such as loading data from 1Password, rotating secrets in 1Password, creating new items and more. Yeah. So in addition to this awesome new functionality you're going to give developers to leverage 1Password in such unique ways, I think it's also worth noting how you built these SDKs.

43:14You have a core Rust library that generates these various SDKs. What's the backstory? When we started the SDK project, one of our goals was to really build the SDKs in a scalable way, where a relatively small team can maintain multiple SDKs at the same time, and we can add support for more languages and also add more functionality to them as time goes on. To achieve that level of scalability, we designed the SDKs in a way that they all leverage a shared Rust library that's written once and it has all the features of all the SDKs inside of it. Now to make this library accessible in each language, we generated a wrapper for that library in each of the supported languages.

44:03This wrapper code is automatically generated. So this gives us even more speed, agility when adding new features to the SDKs because we just add the feature to the SDK core library and each of the SDKs automatically gets updated to expose the new functionality in all of the languages. That's so cool. Okay. The next step is to go to 1password.com slash changelogpod. They've given our listeners an exclusive extended free trial to all the developers out there to use 1Password for 28 days. That's not 14 days, but 28 days. They doubled it. Make sure you go to 1Password.com slash ChangeAllPod to get that exclusive sign-up bonus.

44:43Or head to developer.1password.com to learn about 1Password's new SDKs available right now. Their amazing developer tooling, their CLI, their SSH and Git integrations, their CICD integrations, and so much more. Again, 1Password.com slash changelawpod or developer.1Password.com to learn more.

45:26But even more distinctly, I remember my very first exposure to grunge music and Nirvana in specific because I went to a birthday party. I think it was fifth grade going into sixth grade. So like going from grade school into middle school. And it was a birthday party with some people that I didn't know quite so well. So it was kind of like a new group of kids. And up to that point, I was basically listening to what my sister was listening to. She's three years older and a girl. And so she liked boy bands. I mean, it was like New Kids on the Block and that kind of stuff. Boys to Men, a lot of R &B, stuff like that.

45:59So prior to that, my only tape, which now I'm dating myself, I had a tape of, I think, Aladdin, which good tunes for Aladdin. But, you know, that's the kind of music that I was listening. Aladdin and New Kids on the Block. Aladdin? Like the movie Aladdin? Yeah. Okay. You know, it's got a great soundtrack. Go back and check it out, dude. Yeah, I'm down. Robin Williams is on that. Lots of good people. Recently reintroduced that movie and album to my eight-year-old daughter. and it holds up. It's really good. Yeah, really good music. Oh, it's that Aladdin's at the bottom. He's become a one-man rising crime.

46:33I blame parents except he hasn't got them. Gotta eat to live, gotta still to eat, tell you all about it when I got the time. But I go into this birthday party and like the very first time I heard Nirvana, specifically it was In Utero was the album. It was not Nevermind, which is what was that most people were spinning smells like teen spirit but this was in utero and i just couldn't believe like i'm like what are these sounds what else should i be all apologies

47:09in the sun in the sun

47:24But I also had to act like I was like, I'm like, oh yeah, I know these guys, you know, like just playing it cool. And I had no idea. I was listening to Aladdin on the way over. And now, and there's like, from, from then on out, I was like, I was Nirvana boy for like two and a half years until I, until I found Pearl Jam and Stone Temple Pilots and And the whole grunge scene really just swept over me when I was in middle school. STP for life, man. Yeah. Pearl Jam for life. Absolutely. Even flow, right? Oh, yeah. Pearl Jam's still out there. They're still doing stuff. Eddie Vedder, man. Just slaying it still yet.

47:55I don't know how they do it. Unfortunately, Nirvana and Stone Temple Pilots had unfortunate ends. Yeah. I mean, that's how it works out, I guess. Speaking of tape, or a cassette tape, I should be more specific. that Zoso album was I owned it on tape and you had to flip it right like you had to get to like sometimes you had to stick a pencil in there rewind it you ever do that when it gets I suppose I think I had like my Honda CRV no CRX not CRV that was that was the it was a 1985 Honda CRX it was red tape deck in it oh yeah I mean just terrible speakers Jordan did you ever own a tape deck i did i had like some i feel like i was mostly like you know i didn't think i have like like legit tapes i had like you know tapes that a friend's like copied off of his dad's tapes or something like that and then i had like you know going to the eclectic musical taste i think i had like two weird al tapes so definitely like a lover of of novelty music yeah i still listen to weird out with my boys that was the air of parody for him at least he definitely did a great job of He was the best.

49:05That's the parody. I got to admit this, though. I didn't get to enjoy Napster like you all did. No. And the reason why I was looking at this, because we now have LLMs, and you can ask it any question, and it will give you a pretty brief, but hopefully mostly non - Somewhat true. Whose hallucinogenic answer. Somewhat true answer. Probably equally hallucinatory as our recollections of the past. Well, let's see. Tell me if this concurs, then, because I just asked it, what was the year of Napster? because I was thinking I do recall a time with Napster, but it was brief. And I was trying to figure out like why.

49:42And so Napster, according to GPT-40, was launched in June of 1999. It was one of the first widely used peer-to-peer, P2P file sharing services, primarily known for sharing digital music files, MP3s. And it says, only one more sentence, Napster quickly became popular, but also faced significant legal challenges from the music industry, leading to its shutdown in 2001. And so the reason why, first, does that translate to what y 'all remember in terms of timeline? That matches my hallucination, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I would have probably dated it a little earlier. Okay. But it definitely is probably true.

50:22I would have been wrong. So I was thinking like one year later, potentially, in terms of its shutdown. But I could be wrong, like 2002. But I think it's probably 2001. one. Okay. So the reason why was because I went into the military in 1998 and I don't know what you all know about going in the military, but like we're, we're deprived of most things that culture really gets access to. We're meant to be soldiers. We're meant to be focused and mission minded. And so as a young 18 year old going on 19, I did not have the luxury of having extra cash for things and so at that time i think i actually bought my very first disc man yes disc man oh yeah sony does not a walkman a disc man oh yeah walkmans were before that but it was walkman you would disc man was terrible because it just skipped all the time it did skip but then you had the anti-skip which meant it which meant it would like have a 10 second buffer which was amazing it would just sit there for a while the coolest tech ever but it would still skip a little bit yeah right so i'd actually bought cds not have a digital download didn't have a computer so access to this connectivity was limited to a lot of people at time although there was a large port of culture large port of culture that actually had access but i was in the military from 98 till 2001 so i was in this a lot you missed the best year in movie history you missed exactly 1999 uh i so i was in this you know multi-year depravity because of the military which was great in many regards but i didn't have access now towards the end of my military career my battle buddy had a computer and we were doing some of these things but like even then i didn't have time really i mean just didn't have my focus was elsewhere but later on in 2001 i do recall Napster downloading a bunch of stuff.

52:12Then, as you mentioned, Jared, it turned into BitTorrent. Then it was a thing called TrackerTracker. Do either of you recall TrackerTracker? Well, there was a bunch of stuff. So right when Napster died, because it went like, the lights went out, you know, because it was a legal action. It was like shut down. And when that died, there was a bunch of stuff that sprung out. BitTorrent was the eventual, I think, replacement, so to speak, of that kind of content. But there was like LimeWire, and there was Nutella. Yes. And there was probably Tracker Tracker. Like there was, you know, just like when the lights come on and the cockroaches scatter, like we were all scattering to find some other way of getting some music, you know, and there's tons of stuff.

52:50Well, I think like the one, one of those examples going back to Winamp was, you know, Winamp obviously sort of blew up and became very popular and then eventually sold slash sold out. But, you know, you got to do what you got to do to AOL for like, you know,$10 million or something which was huge at the time and its founder uh justin frankel you know he went on at aol to you know he sold out maybe but he didn't sort of sell out in his soul and you know he was like a troublemaker there at aol really you know at this time where they're trying to merge or be acquired by or whatever it was with time warner obviously a giant you know music catalog and he was like releasing peer-to-peer file sharing software like on AOL servers like just like an open source thing that he wrote or like a you know freeware thing he wrote and there's like here it is and they're like no you can't do that he's like I don't know I kind of just did is he still around is he still out yeah yeah I got a chance to meet up with him and you know chat a bit with him about you know about web amp and about win amp obviously yeah and yeah he's he's working on um a daw digital audio software called reaper and yeah he sort of like has a small group of people and they just work on this you know audio software and i think he like plays music and it's kind of living his best life cool i have to get him on for an interview at some point i'd love to hear that would be cool exploits back in the aol days just going rogue at aol yeah Mm-hmm.

54:26That's hilarious. Well, speaking of going rogue, we brought you here to talk about people who just shove in random crap into their skins, right? Like, like you went about unzipping folders and just found a bunch of weird stuff. Is that what happened basically? Yeah. So this was actually back in 2001, you know, I was sort of collecting up all these files as part of the, the museum that I was putting together. And, you know, occasionally I would come across one that wouldn't parse correctly. Like I would try to load it up in WebAmp and it would like fail for some reason. And of course, sometimes that means, oh, it's a bug in my thing, right?

55:03I'm not correctly understanding the file format. And so I started to investigate like, what's going on here? And so, you know, I, at this point it's, you know, a hundred thousand things you sort of have to get automated. So I sort of had been, you know, downloading the skins and then extracting them and like putting the information about them into a database and so I had sort of like a collection of like you know here's all the different things and and I can sort of step through them with with code and so it's like okay let's take a look at some of these ones that don't you know that don't parse as Winamp skins and you know it's a it's like its own file format you know it's like its own file extension WSZ it's not a zip file but But yeah, I came across just like a bunch of really weird stuff.

55:50So I think like the the first one I found, which I think just like set the stage perfectly for like what a weird adventure this was going to be. I was like, OK, I got this thing. It doesn't parse. Let's open it up and look inside. And it just had a single PDF file with like a, you know, eight and a half by 11 advertisement for renting a like giant like bowling pin mascot costume. like a like a seven foot tall bowling pin mascot and like i just like like can you think of a more random like digital artifact to stumble across yeah and like it just was sort of a worm like a rabbit hole you know going down from there yeah and you have a a picture of that pdf on the blog post which we'll link to yeah it has like a like a line drawing line drawing illustration of like this you know a giant bowling pin man yeah he looks like the stave huff marshmallow man but he's a bowling pin yeah i don't i want to know why like what made people do these obscure things like the bob's car and like worm.exe.

57:01you're like well that one makes more sense that one does make more sense but then it's not a worm oh yeah no okay that makes less sense now so what's the point what are you trying to do here i mean so there was sort of like a large there was like a variety of things right there were things like the bowling pin one where like i have to assume someone meant that as a zip archive and like it got renamed somehow and then caught up in my sort of you know the community's sort of scraping efforts like well it's got the right file extension so maybe it was some someone was confused about what that file extension should be or some something somewhere caught it up in the in the you know because obviously it never would have worked as a winam skin and there was as one when bobscar.wsz it's just like you open it up it's like oh yeah it's like a guy's car like not like a particularly cool one just like a guy's or a person i guess picture of their car and so yeah i think some of them are like that some were i think just like easter eggs you know that people place i think that's another thing that you know has we've gotten away from in our modern software era this idea of like easter eggs and even on albums right you remember like hidden tracks on albums i don't think there's really much of an equivalent in the sort of spotify era so i think some of them were like you know someone's creating something they're in this era of you know even winamp itself had like a bunch of little easter eggs like if you typed in a special pattern of characters the like title bar would swap out for a different title bar and as a skin author you could provide the like easter egg version of your skin so like it kind of makes sense right you're sort of in that mode you're designing your skin well you you get your chance to add your version of the Easter egg into it.

58:52Sorry, I'm going to pause for one second. My mic has like slipped precariously and I'm like hunching over. Okay, the mic's back. Continue. Where are you leaving off at? Yeah. So you were prompted as a skin author to like add your own Easter egg. It was like right there sort of in the file format that like there was a little place for you to put in what your title bar was going to be in Easter egg mode. And I can imagine that put people in this mindset of like oh yeah like what other little you know things should I hide in here for for the curious to discover and I guess probably for many of these that one curious person was me you know that sort of finally found it and so yeah things like you know text files one or like some of them included like encrypted zip files inside of them that was like one of the things I found and it was just very yeah lots of little hidden things so I think that was another class on top of just like things that accidentally got renamed to be um skin files yeah very peculiar and then just like things that like just like photos like there was one that's like a photo like some friends hanging out by a basketball hoop it's like I don't know why you included that that um yeah maybe i wonder though because those are user generated if they're not like just a way to share yeah could be i mean i suppose you could have just emailed the photo that might have been slightly easier but maybe it's like this reward system or i don't know because i'm thinking like it's like it's not quite a hack right an easter egg is not really a hack it kind of is it's really meant to be a reward for the enjoying parties a creator put something in something one of the most famous examples of i think maybe even the first easter egg in the world maybe not first in the world modern world maybe was the game adventure from warren robinette it was the this is famously in movies and in storylines and elsewhere it was for the atari 2600 like if you didn't win the game but you instead tried to find this path of the dark tunnel etc and you would land in this room and you got truly what was meant to be the winning thing i think there's a backstory to that and everything too but i just wonder like if they were just trying to share with obscure weird things with the world not just simply like well here's a photo of me and my friends with the basketball hoop maybe they were trying to like i don't know like it seems strange but share in a unique way with the world maybe reward some way shape or form the future jordans who will eventually spelunk all these winnip skins and find the corruption yeah i think also and maybe this was just like my friend group or whatever as a teenager but I think at that time in the early 2000s there was this like this sense of like like quote-unquote random being like a very like funny kind of way to be and that like quoting random things or identifying things that are like totally quote-unquote random was seen as like very like of the era and I wonder if there was some element of that like what's the like weirdest sort of random thing I could include in here and you know I I think we're you know having been down the rabbit hole and found all these things it's like yeah i guess a bowling pin rental flyer is like a pretty random thing so mission accomplished i guess if you found multiple skins with similar contents i would then conjecture that some of these might be signatures you know because sometimes people have a calling card and i imagine skin authors would author once you learn how to do it and if you have a knack for it it probably feels good to have your skin out there for people.

1:02:30And so I imagine there's people that did a handful of those. And who's going to see these files except for other skin authors, right? Those are the people who are trafficking inside of these files and yourself, like archaeologists. And so perhaps they're left there in certain cases for the other skin authors to see or come across. And maybe it's a calling card or maybe it's just a funny random, like you said, of like oh wait till somebody tries to see how i built my skin they're gonna find out that there's a bullying pen for rent or you know what that one was corrupt that one was totally corrupted i guess yeah but then didn't you find something that were just encrypted skins like it was just it was just a skin at the end of the day wasn't it but it was just encrypted yeah there were a few that were so like zip has its own encryption like option right so you can like built into the format there's like the option to encrypt and there were a few that were just like named you know dot ws z but were actually encrypted zip files and you know knowing what you know people's notions of passwords were back in the day i was like i bet these could be cracked these days so i that was like you know going back to my point about like this has sort of been my like education like this was a you know i've always been like man i'd always like to know like how do you like crack passwords like you know you got some rainbow tables brute force that's exactly like i know there are like cool like tools and brute forcing you know a different techniques and it's like maybe i'll get to play with that and so you know i downloaded some of those things and read up on them and was able to get them running and and yeah i mean the like i think the the password on the first one was just like honda which obviously was like like in the you know in the dictionary right easy to brute force yeah and like that was just like a skin that somehow had been encrypted and i have no idea maybe someone thought it was clever like i don't think winamp i actually i know for a fact winamp would not prompt you for a password or anything or maybe it's like got like swept up in something else like yeah i don't know but then there were some that like were you know had like a readme file in them that said like you discovered the secret the password is you know xyz and then alongside there was one then alongside it in the archive was another zip file that was itself encrypted and now we're having fun and yeah but the password didn't work when i tried it i was like i've got i've got a text file telling me the password and I've got an encrypted zip file.

1:04:55Like they're like, I'm so close to discovering the super cool secret, you know, inner thing. And then it turned out that it was like a case sensitivity issue and they had written the password in caps and I just needed to try it in lowercase. Yeah. And so then I, I did, you know, I was able to unpack it and I just had like a bunch of like music visualizer plugins inside. But you know, it was like, you know, like you said, the reward for the people who were digging deep. But in terms of like signatures, it was conventional to include like a readme file, text file in each one. And so that has actually served the museum really well because I'm able to, you know, I don't have, you know, I'm not the site that they uploaded these things to.

1:05:36So like, I don't have their like, oh, I uploaded it and I'm going to write my description and I'm going to give my author name and I'm going to, you know, give it as a title. And so being able to access those readme files has let me index them. And so now if you search, we can like search through all the contents of the readme files. And so even though I don't have that sort of side metadata, they are discoverable. But yeah, people definitely had their like signatures and sign off lines inside those readmes. I was looking at this one where we had mentioned the fellows playing basketball or at least holding onto the hoop and they're drinking Canadian beer.

1:06:11Like it's literally a beer from Molson. It's called Canadian. like it's so funny i mean that's like it's a beer called canadian there you go it's very popular in canada i don't know if it's still popular to this day but i know this era of photo looks like it may have been early 2000s 99s you know obviously because it's a win-up skin as this post of mine made the rounds it was really interesting reading the different comments people had on it and like Like that photo in particular, which is like the most nondescript photo, right? It's like not an action shop, just like some friends hanging out by a basketball hoop.

1:06:49And it's called like, what is it called again? Do you have it in front of you? Standing around the hoop.jpg. Yeah, standing around the hoop.jpg. And like, it was really interesting how many people in the comment sections of various places this was being discussed, like latched onto that image. And they're like, that like feels like my teenage years. That feels like my friend group. that, you know, there's something because it is, you know, it wasn't like published in a magazine. It wasn't just like some, you know, random people's photo that they took, you know, themselves hanging out. And yeah, it is so funny how many people have like latched onto that.

1:07:23They're like, that touches something about my childhood that I haven't like thought about in a long time. Maybe it's because it is so unproduced. Yeah. Something about it is just like yeah that's that's a snapshot that we can all relate to i say we all meaning people who were really in this era that feel the nostalgia not just the new that is from the old i mean even things like these pictures from dom's baby joe like what's up with that yeah dropping photos up in this thing like uh here's ellie yeah ellie's in front of some sort of obscure wall coloring maybe she's looks like she's painting it and she's got a rack behind her some sort of like gear i don't know i could speculate maybe she's a school teacher or something like it looks like maybe it's school potentially some sort of building what the heck is ellie doing she's painting the wall i don't know sure why i think the relatable thing is like and i think the reason that these have been so fun to poke apart but also to like preserve is that these are like created by just regular people.

1:08:31And I think, you know, there's something very like human about it. They're not, these are not professional designers, right? These are like, you know, teenagers or 20 somethings or whatever, you know, like in their copious spare time putting these things together. And there's something really unique about, I guess you can call it art. It's a type of art that is, you know, of the people. And as part of that, you get this sort of snapshot of real life sort of tucked in the corners of it that, yeah, just like random people. It's like someone put a picture of someone painting a wall. I don't know why.

1:09:11But, you know, there it is. Maybe they it was that was an important person to them or they thought it was random. I don't know. It could have been included by accident. I mean, it's not impossible. I don't think that's true but it's possible you know what's cool is that I'm going to take stayingaroundthehoop.jpg and le.bitmap although now it's a PNG and I'm going to embed those as chapter data into our episode and so like those files are going to live on inside of an mp3 file like that's kind of cool right like there's like a whole new life for these files because they were dug up and enjoyed and I think that's cool.

1:09:52Now there's new life, a new embed. But now you've spoiled the Easter egg by telling people. You gotta keep it hush-hush. Okay, let's just make a weird voiceover noise during that whole sentence. So actually, speaking of voiceover, there were some audio files too and I think these were some of the most like, and maybe these could be in the podcast itself. Oh yeah, absolutely. But there's one that's what's called cool.mp3 or something like that, which is again the most, like if you ask someone to like imagine the most random sound you could like you would come up with this so that was like very random of course let me tell you how the story of cool.mp3 came about then because i know please please i'm gonna hypothesize but i'm gonna act as if i know it okay some kids 16 year olds 14 year olds were just horsing around maybe listen to jerky boys making some prank phone calls maybe you know listening to some napster tracks for sure downloading very slowly and like hey while we're waiting for this file to arrive the multi parts of this file to eventually arrive they just are just messing around like kids do they make this thing the other friend is like tinkering with this winamp thing making themes here and there he thought he could he's like i'm gonna put cool.mp3 this thing we just made today in this theme and let's see if somebody finds it eventually and they're like what the heck is this that's how cool.mp3 became a thing i think you're right i think you're right yeah it's totally people just messing around this is a snapshot of just people messing around just like pushing the buttons of whatever the buttons are and in that era it was when amp skins finding files like today there's no real recollection of files for tracks for song tracks like it's it's kind of erased in a way it's hidden behind i suppose you could still download do people still download from like amazon music and apple music or is it pretty much just gone it's just streaming right like who's buying the mp3s there are some hardcore people probably i mean i would be buying them if i didn't have a subscription yeah yeah i don't think anyone you know even like i think when ios came out it was eye-opening to me that like you know they're so actively deprioritizing the idea of a file like users that was an implementation detail that users shouldn't need to think about and see i don't think we i don't think we're we're encouraged to think in that way yeah that's uh it's an absolute shame because well i don't know if it's an absolute shame i think it's progress i'll stick to my guns it's not kids these days yeah exactly now our old men yell at clouds uh Yeah, but I mean, you know.

1:12:40Literally yelling at clouds. Yeah, just being able to create a literal file and distribute it in some way, shape or form. This form of creation sharing is becoming owned. What's up friends? I'm here in the breaks with Dennis Pilarinos, founder and CEO of Unblocked. Check them out at getunblocked.com. It's for all the hows, whys and WTFs. Unblocked helps developers to find the answers they need to get their jobs done. So Dennis, you know we speak to developers. Who is Unblocked best for? Who needs to use it? I think if you are a team that works with a lot of coworkers, if you have like 40, 50, 60, 100, 200, 500 coworkers, engineers, and you're working on a code base that's old and large, I think Unblocked is going to be a tool that you're going to love.

1:13:28Typically, the way that works is you can try it with one of your side projects, But the best outcomes are when you get comfortable with the security requirements that we have. You connect your source code. You connect a form of documentation, be that Slack or Notion or Confluence. And when you get those two systems together, it will blow your mind. Actually, every single person that I've seen on board with the product does the same thing. They always ask a question that they're an expert in. They want to get a sense for how good is this thing. So I'm going to ask a question that I know the answer to.

1:14:03And people are generally blown away by the caliber of the response. And that starts to build a relationship of trust where they're like, no, this thing actually can give me the answer that I'm looking for. And instead of interrupting a coworker or spending 30 minutes in a meeting, I can just ask a question, get the response in a few seconds and reclaim that time. Yeah, I love that. So I've set up Unblocked on our code base for change.com. And I did the same thing. I asked it something I knew the answer to, and I was just like you said, blown away. But I know my aha moment. You know, tell me you've met with lots of customers.

1:14:37You've talked to different folks. What are the aha moments for those you speak with? I think there's two aha moments or there's two pain. Sorry, I should say there's two pain points that people face. The first is if they're the ones asking questions, how long it takes to get a response. The second is if you're a person who's been around code base for a long period of time, how often your day is interrupted with questions. I've been on and I still am often on both sides of those. I think the most frustrating part of it is when I've answered a question repeatedly. Like I had that conversation a month ago and it appears again.

1:15:10Engineering leaders will hear their most talented engineering folks say, I don't get any work done because I spend all my day in meetings answering questions for folks. That is like if you experience that pain point, Unblocked is basically perfect for you. The next step to get Unblocked for you and your team is to go to getunblocked.com. Yourself, your team can now find the answer they need to get their jobs done and not have to bother anyone else on the team, take a meeting or waste any time whatsoever. Again, getunblocked.com. That's G-E-T-U-N-B-L-O-C-K-E-D.com. and get unblocked.

1:15:54I mean, I don't want to turn this conversation to the dark side, but like the creation mechanism to some degree lives. I mean, I'll go one step further and go back to that thing I mentioned earlier from Snacks. And I thought it was pretty interesting because there was one layer deeper on this, which was the takeaway. The labels need social media feeds to succeed, right? So like we're going back to the day of Napster when they're like, damn you kids sharing files accidentally or unpurposely in this way, shape, or form that subjugates and subverts our ways of profiting. And then you fast forward 22 years-ish later, and now there's a headline that says, or at least a sub-headline, a takeaway headline that says, Labels Need Social Media Feeds to Succeed.

1:16:40And it took a large hit. This is UMG, one of the most popular labels out there. They had Q2 results that were down, you know, they would take a$10 million per quarter revenue hit. This is just paraphrasing some of the thing in there. But I feel like, like it's gotten the creativity, though, is actually like, maybe gotten more. So like you were saying, you know, there's like sort of the creation of a file, we sort of lost that artifact. But at the same time, like, I feel like we're now in the area where everyone is a content creator, right? Like the idea of creating something and sharing it with the world is like second nature, right?

1:17:19It's been definitely like commoditized in a way. But also at the same time, I think we've gone to a world where there's just so much creation going on. But because there's so much creation, there's so much content to see. and so the ability to like well you know if there's 50 000 people creating things every day probably not all of them can you know make that their profession and again the what the role that the the labels were playing in terms of paying the upfront cost to get artists recorded it's like well the cost of actually recording something has gone way down the cost of marketing you know artists well the way you market now is totally different and is much more you know based on social media.

1:18:06So the whole like what role they're playing, I think, has also changed dramatically. That's why I'm over here thinking like, who needs a label? No wonder they need the social media platforms because who needs them anymore? I'm sure there are things they bring to the table, but nowhere near what it used to be in order to get your music out to people. Now, yes, there's more noise than there ever has been. But it's always been the case, at least in American history that very few people could make their living by making music. I mean, it's not a mass market job. It's a very rare person that can get that done.

1:18:40I would argue it's easier today. There's probably more people making a living off of their music creations than in the past because it's easier to find your 1 ,000 true fans and you're not maybe going to be a multimillionaire, but you can probably make a living that way because you don't have to go city to city to actually literally really find them. Now, once you've got your fans, it is harder to make money, I think, which is why touring again has become the way that artists are making a living now. It used to be their album sales and the tour was kind of to promote the CD. And now it's the music promotes the tour and the tour is how you make money and you sell merch and you can make a living that way.

1:19:17It's a hard job. A lot of people burn out and don't survive touring. It's not an easy life to live, although it's probably a very exciting life. So I just wonder, what are the labels bringing today in 2024 that is of value compared to what they extract? I don't know what that equation looks like. Yeah, I think it's really hard to know. And I'm sure there certainly is an ideal role that they could play in producing albums, giving artists the time and the space to be in the studio, to take the time to write the music and to not have to be working their other job. But increasingly, it feels like you said, they need the social networks.

1:20:01They're only signing people who already have meaningful followings. And so it is kind of a question mark, like what value are they really providing? But your point about there's more people making music today, I think it's absolutely true that there's a lot more music and art and content being created by people. But I suspect it is. And I suspect it's sort of like you end up with a lot of people, a really long tail of like just people making stuff that maybe it's not their profession, right? They're sort of in their side time. And maybe that's good, right? That we have more people being creative, more options as a listener to hear things even from people who don't make it their full-time job.

1:20:43But then like I suspect that there is like a flattening where there just are fewer people who are able to make it their living. That's my suspicion. And I think it is all downstream of Napster, right? Spotify had to emerge as a competitor to Napster. And, you know, they just couldn't extract the same amount of value as, you know, the record labels could before. They had to be competitive with free, which is a pretty tall order. Yeah, absolutely. My thought on labels is they probably compress the time. Potentially, there's convenience factor in there. There's maybe a network factor in there where, hey, we have XYZ producer who produced for x y and z and so the artist is like yeah i can go take my time and try and find a producer maybe they can maybe they can't but then like you said jordan maybe the label is like hey you don't have to work for these next month and a half while you're or we're just pampering you to create this album or this next drop as i said earlier right well they cut you that up front check that's pretty much what they're doing yeah they take out sort of the hard part in a i don't know if that's actually true, I'm just hypothesizing clearly from what I think may be occurring, but potentially they're just enabling this space for creation and access to different talent, to different studios that have just thousands and thousands of dollars worth of gear, just already set up, fine-tuned, a repeated pattern of success.

1:22:09It's almost, I wouldn't say like it's it's you know foolproof but i'd imagine it's pretty well oiled because they've just turned so many folks through this process that's it's almost on repeat like automation in a way but like jordan said they're only signing people who've already arrived like once you've made it then they're interested in you and so you already know how to make music that people love and so i understand access to producers i understand the allure i think what they're bringing is a legacy institution that has a lasting, I don't know, you call it cloud around it. And that's probably not the best word, like an allure to it, similar to like mainstream television.

1:22:49Like everybody would love to see themselves on TV, even if they're like YouTube stars have all these millions of followers. And then finally they're on like NBC. And it's like, even for them, that's a moment. Cause I like, there's this thing about being on television. I think there's a thing about being signed by a record label, which is very attractive because of the history of what that meant. And I think it means less and less. And I think that's going to wear off over time, but it's probably still like a trailing indicator. And I think people want that upfront check because now they've made it, quote unquote, made it, even though there's so many strings attached to that check that you better check yourself.

1:23:24And they also want the street cred of like, I've been signed by RCA or whatever it is. and that just gives them this instant clout, which is just because of the history of what those institutions were. I just wonder even things like Swift, Taylor Swift, like she was very, very popular and now she's like the name you hear everywhere. And I don't think it's just because of her music. I think it's, and this is totally hypothesis or hypothesization or whatever you want to call it. I'm hypothesizing how this may have happened, but I got to imagine like these labels not just having access to the studios and the producers, they also have their hands in the pocket or literal ownership of media, which is message distribution.

1:24:10It's idea implanting, right? You don't think so? I think Taylor Swift is unique in that she was sort of the first mega star to realize the power of social media and that she could own her own audience without needing the labels. And that's what went into her Taylor's version releases, where she sort of reclaimed all of her content back from her labels by re-releasing everything. They owned all the masters to the original tracks. And so, of course, anytime they got played, they got, you know, a cut of it. And she was like, nope, you know, I can go on on Instagram and I can say, hey, all my Swifties stop listening to the old version.

1:24:52I re-released it. Listen to this version now. And they're like, yep, I'm on board. And, you know, they didn't, she didn't need to, you know, go on a talk show or a radio morning chat show or something to reach those people. She's got a direct line. Yeah. Point taken. I understand that. I think they used to do that. And I think that that's probably what I'm talking about, this trailing legacy. Because it used to be like the old formula was, you know, you toil away in obscurity and you play dive bars and weddings and whatever you got to do, right? Like open mic nights and eventually some talent scout.

1:25:25from a record label, comes and discovers you. That's the person who just understands what raw talent looks like. And they discover you and they bring you in and then they sign a deal with you and then they push you out to the world. And that's a great story and it used to be true and I just don't think it's as true anymore as it used to be. But there's just this wake of that being the case for so long that everybody still gives them more credit than they currently bring. but you know we're all just prognosticating from the outside i'm sure if you're inside the industry then you are probably thinking these fools have no idea what they're talking about i feel like there's a parallel with like you know internet venture capital right where the record labels were historically the venture capital of the music industry where they would identify someone who didn't you know wasn't a sure thing and they would they would produce a lot of albums with a lot of upfront cost and most of them would fail and most of them would not become superstars but a small number of them would become superstars, which is like the VC unicorn.

1:26:27And that would subsidize all the losses they took on producing all those other records. And so a lot of artists who didn't end up becoming successful did get records produced as a byproduct of that, which is, you know, probably was good for the overall, you know, our ability to hear interesting music. But now in the sort of social media era where it's like, well, we're just going to wait till you sort of already proven that you have a resonance then maybe those those albums that aren't commercially viable maybe never get produced yeah the distribution i think is really what changed most and now that now the record label are downstream of distribution because which is why they're trying to go sign deals with the social media companies because they have they are the distribution at this point whereas it used to be cutting a bunch of cds and and shipping them around the world to be sold in record stores and all that was a lot of cost for any band or individual like too much to do but then and the record labels had that but yeah now that it's been flipped on its head with distribution who needs them that's all i'm saying who needs them explain to me this i've been thinking about this this is like today's pop culture how was snoop dogg the mascot slash person the the front person for the olympics you know that wasn't because he was like let me do this i think that was a job somebody offered that to him and that had to be it could have been Kevin Hart I think there's times when you know different comedians are different people within culture and it's not that Snoop is irrelevant like the guy makes wine even you know I think there's like all these different things these artists get their hands in but I wonder like is that part of a label relationship or has he transcended this need for a label to be like okay there's a job out there Snoop, you want this interview to be the front person for the Olympics this year and you got to be there.

1:28:22And obviously he's going to enjoy it anyways. I don't think he was by any means acting in terms of his zeal and excitement for what was going on. But he was on camera. It was very much Snoop Dogg. Like how does that happen? Is it because just Snoop Dogg and his agent is like, hey, I got a job opportunity for you? or is it because there's some sort of larger conglomerate connection that has paid media access that gets a job that suddenly Snoop Dogg is now even more embedded into today's pop culture than he was prior to the Olympics, for example. Are you signing up for next year? Are you putting in your bid to take Snoop Dogg's place?

1:28:59Yeah, they're going to be like, yeah, let's get Adam in there. Adam who? I don't know. I mean, he applied. I guess at some point you, like Taylor Swift, You transcend from musical artists to cultural personality. And then you can go do whatever you want. Yeah. And I guess if you're good at it too. Snoop Dogg has stood the test of time beyond rap. By the way, Snoop Dogg has put out so many tracks in his life. Lots of bad music. Just one man's opinion. He's got some good music as well. But there's a guy where quantity has always been higher than quality. but he's just transcended culturally because of his aura or whatever it is, right?

1:29:44That's who he is. I don't know the details of his label relationships. I do know that in the rap game, especially when he was coming up, you work with a label long enough until you can create your own label. And so there's a lot of label battles and hatred between rappers and labels and a lot of labels taking advantage of young rappers. And so I would be surprised if a label deal was involved in this deal, I think probably NBC went to his agent and said, we want Snoop, you know, I don't know. It was a great idea by whoever thought of that because he really did add something to the Olympics that just has never been there before.

1:30:21I mean, it was kind of strange, but it was like kind of a, like Sideshow Bob kind of a thing. Like, oh, and Snoop's there and he's dancing. And you're like, who's not going to love Snoop Dogg dancing and cheering? It's like, it's just, he kind of oozes joy, doesn't he? It was cool. Did that happen before? Was there ever that kind of front person for the Olympics? I don't know if I recall. I don't recall. I want to say Snoop did it before. Or there was, I don't know. Yeah. Definitely not the expert in this. No, none of us are experts here. We're software developers talking about culture. Yeah, we're not talking about the Olympics necessarily.

1:30:55But a lot of interesting things this year for the Olympics. Some controversial, some not controversial, some absolutely hilarious, like the breakdancing. Oh, yeah, the Australian breakdancing. this we're all Ray Gun article out there. I believe I just saw my, my buddy, John Daniel Trask, who is the co-founder of literally Ray Gun, the software not paid, but they're error tracking. We love them. They're awesome. At least I do. I think it's Raygun.io is their URL. I believe. You sure that wasn't paid? That was not paid. I just know that. That seemed pretty bad. I think it's Raygun.io. I think it's Ray.

1:31:26It could be Raygun.io. Could be. Raygun.io slash changelog. Yeah, exactly. I think that's a domain. Slash Adam Sokoviak. Well, if there's a connection there, maybe they'll come back and sponsor again. I know we were contacted recently, but we're not haters. You know, we're not haters. We're here to promote a lot of folks out there. We're the dev rel for the dev world. Yeah, I think it's kind of cool what Snoop did. I think you're right. He did bring some really interesting pieces to it. And I think like anybody who transcends, I think, Jordan, you've transcended simply just your role on the relay team at Meta, to this Winamp world, this Webamp world, really, where you're sort of spelunking all these unique things.

1:32:09And I think it's interesting how you've been on the front page of Hacker News for using SQLite in production and just all these different things that have allowed you to push the edges, even work with the Internet Archive, like all these cool things you've got to do just because of our history and nostalgia for Winamp and the skins and all the things you've learned as a result of just spelunking this intense, crazy, win-it world. I think it's wild how you've gone deeper into TypeScript, deeper into WebAssembly, uncovered secrets in these skins, this corruption stuff. And I think to even give one credit here, you added, I believe, what was it, 56 additional skins that were skins within skins that you found, and 54 of them were not already in the museum, so you were able to upload those as well.

1:33:02So now we've got 54 more potentially bad, potentially good skins to enjoy. But still, yeah, like your commitment to this is uncanny. Like we had you on the show, how many years ago was it, Jared? Five? 2018. Yeah, it was 2018. Too long ago. And then, you know, I found this article where you're talking about corrupted skins and you obviously shared a few more things with us, which we'll link all these up in the show notes, of course. But it's just wild how something as simple of taking Winamp to this idea of Webamp, how it can be such a rabbit hole to explore and discover. I think it's wild. You've done such a great job.

1:33:40Oh, thanks. Yeah, it's just been really fun. And I think there is something about it that touches on a lot of people's nostalgia, but I think also a lot of people's frustration with the current, what the internet has become and what we sort of maybe imagined it to be in its infancy. And so I think, yeah, every time I've been able to share something that I've worked on in this vein, I feel like it's had an outsized resonance in terms of how it gets talked about because of what an what is sort of important role Winamp played and what an important role the sort of user generated themes, these skins played.

1:34:19Yeah, it does feel like it resonates. So it's been a great experience for me to sort of have this thing to come back to and have a little playground to try out all different things that I'm curious about. And then, yeah, I think the way that it resonates with other people is a lot due to just what an interesting piece of software WinApp was and at an interesting time and perhaps in stark contrast to where we are now. Do you think you've plumbed its depths or do you think the rabbit hole goes even deeper? Probably. Well, let's chat again in another six years and we'll find out. Sounds like a plan.

1:34:55So the museum is at skins.webamp.org. I was slow there for drama. Skins.webamp.org. Very dramatic. Very dramatic. You can check that out. Adam Stachowiak sent you. That's right. There's some UTM data on there that we'll somehow find a way to put in the voice there. Yeah, I'm just enamored by what you've been able to do with this. I think it's really just so cool. I think the only last question, maybe this is a good closing question, is I'm on your GitHub profile, and either I'm blind and I don't see it or it doesn't exist, but you're not taking any sort of sponsorships for this. Now, I imagine you've got a job, so you're okay with that, but I'm sure there's some way, not so much you can profit from this, but at least get back money for your time.

1:35:44Is there a reason why you haven't set up a sponsor page or allowed the community to do anything to support your efforts? Yeah, I think I actually have been sort of well rewarded for this work over time. I think I've always found that, I mean, very directly, I first published the Web AMP project and I got picked up on Hacker News and shortly thereafter, a recruiter from Facebook at the time reached out. And that ended up in a job offer and something I've been doing for the last seven years, which has obviously been pretty good in terms of compensation for that for that work and so yeah I think I found that the compensation comes more and just like the opportunities it's led me to in my career and you know both in terms of where I work but also what projects I get to work on and things like that you know a lot of stuff that I've learned through this project and so yeah it's it actually the the skin museum does have some costs in terms of hosting and whatnot I've done my best to try to minimize those.

1:36:42But yeah, I think I'm happy to subsidize it. It's certainly, I've been rewarded just fine. And to celebrate all the artists who made all these really cool pieces of art, I think it feels a little bit nice to have it just be a thing that's clean and free and just a thing that's done out of goodwill. Well said. I dig it. Skins.webamp.org. Less drama this time around, but you can endlessly scroll skins, Click on them. Find out more details. See them animate. Do some cool stuff. I think it's cool that you've done this. And I think it's cool that you got that job offer. I didn't recall that detail that you published WebAmp and then got an offer or connection to Facebook then Facebook now meta on the Relay team.

1:37:29I do know that part of your history, but I didn't know it was connected to the publishing of this. Not many people are happy to subsidize, though. I mean, some are. Some are not. but when there's such an easy access to access to sponsorship I don't know, you do you man, you do you yeah if you want to sponsor me you can donate to the internet archive, I think that's a great way to do it that is a good way to do it, I'm glad you said that so at the same time you can go to webamp.org not just skins. because that's where the project lives at I'm just wondering like maybe I'll leave this one for the bonus, we'll give this to the plus plus folks let's say goodbye because I got one thing for you.

1:38:09At least an idea. Maybe you'll like it. Maybe you won't. Who knows? What's left? Anything left? I think all that's left we have to say is bye, friends. Yes. Thanks, Jordan. Bye, friends. It's been great to be here. Thank you.

1:38:23Okay, so if you grew up in or even close to the Windamp era like the three of us did, you probably loved this trip down memory lane. If not, well, I hope you at least enjoyed some of Jordan's surprise findings and maybe a few of the tracks and images that we embedded throughout the episode. If you dig it, please do let us know in the comments. We'd also appreciate you sending the episode link to other people who might enjoy the show. Word of mouth is still, in 2024, state of the art when it comes to podcast discovery. Weird but true. Another thanks to our sponsors, Paragon, 1Password, and Unblocked.

1:39:01And of course to our partners at Fly.io. And thank you to Breakmaster Cylinder for beat-freaking for us and for stitching together that llama stab on super short notice. Next week on The Changelog, news on Monday, a crossover episode on Wednesday, and we're catching up with another old friend, Suze Hinton, on Friday. Have a great weekend. Leave us a five-star review if you haven't already. And let's talk again real soon. Thank you !��

1:39:36the

1:39:50the