Very important agents (Friends)

34:43I just, I, I reboot a lot, but I was spending a lot of money. Like you can, you can customize the, the status line in cloud code. And one of the things you can put on there is just a running dollar amount of how much you're currently, this conversation is currently costing you or costing your company. I don't want to know that. I do. It's a leaderboard, man. You try to be in the trillion token club, aren't you? I, I one time posted a picture of, of it where I ran slash cost and it was at$420 and 17 cents. And I just posted that screenshot in Slack and said, am I in trouble? Is that fixed on a$200 a month plan?

35:22Are you actually playing that amount? Cause you got the API tokens, API tokens. Okay. So there is no limit. We never get, I mean, there is a limit and we hit it once. What is it? I don't know. Okay. But it's like, I don't know. They have different, different tiers of whatever. I don't, luckily have to think about that but uh i will say that opus 4.5 is not only better than all the other models i've used it's so much cheaper like so much it's crazy i think opus before that was like it was 25 per million input tokens and 75 per million output tokens now it's 15 and 25 i think respectively yeah i guess i haven't paid as close attention as you have on that front nick you're definitely the bleeding edge on this you're edging i like i mean that's whatever but like the i also think i don't know my controversial take is like open ai is over here making making cool things don't get me wrong like their voice mode having conversations with it like that's the biggest competitor to podcast time in the car for me is just like talking to chad gpt like with the voice conversation because I can lead the conversation wherever I want and I can stop it and we can, I can interrupt and go in a different direction completely.

36:42We can be talking about code one time and then I can be asking it about the fourth dimension in the same conversation. And just like, it's really fun. So I've done a little bit of that. And I honestly, I just run out of stuff to talk about. Yeah. Do you run out of stuff to talk about? Sometimes. And you're like, I don't know, you catch yourself. Like, you know that if you pause for too long, it's just going to start talking. So you have to like know what you're saying. Like it's a, it's a different dynamic. I think it's just smarter than I am. You know, it's commanding this relationship too much.

37:09That's cool. And I think Sora is cool. Have you guys played with Sora? Uh, the original, not Sora too. Like the, uh, the tech talk. No, not the social network. You're on there though, right? I am. I know I'm having fun just making like, does that integrate with your vision pro at all? Uh, I haven't tried it. Okay. Go ahead. Tell us what you're, what are you up to over there? I just make, I put myself into classic movie scenes, which you have to be careful about. Cause you can't like, like risky business lately. Yeah. Like that. Like, uh, you know, we just did a, an onsite, like a company onsite in San Francisco.

37:42And as part of that, like I was part of a group that went to Alcatraz. So of course, before I went, I watched the rock so that I know what I'm looking at. And then I thought, what's the classic scene from the rock? And it's where Nick cage has like the green smoke above him. That's right. He's on his knees. Yeah. So I did that. And we like, during that, my company work OS, we had done this, um, enterprise ready conf and so i just like have me holding the green smoke on top of alcatraz going enterprise readiness achieved and it's like stupid stuff right now i have a draft that i haven't posted which is me as an elf on the shelf and i'm mischievously running around the house adding as any to your types like just doing silly stuff like that that's that's pretty good actually oh gosh i feel like you're like the slot master this guy's just you know we're all concerned about too much slop and he's just out there slopping stuff all over the place.

38:35He's embracing the slop. He's not just embracing it. He's spitting it out. He's wearing it.

38:43Well, I do expect to see you on Tom Cruise's body with the risky business slide in move by the end of the day. Done. Okay. Podcast are inserted now. Put that in the show notes. That would be good stuff. Wow. So Sora, this is Sora 2, right? Cause it's not just a thing. It's like a social thing too. Is the social network like actually a thing? It is sort of, I don't know. I don't look at it, but what do you do with your videos? Just show them to your kids. Uh, I download them. No, I do not show them to my kids. I made that mistake. Okay. Specifically do not show them to your kids. I have a six year old and I, I made a video of me crashing a motorcycle.

39:26Um, and I sent it, I was going to send it to my mom as like a, you know could i trick her into thinking i got a motorcycle or something which is really dumb because it has like professional camera angles of me falling off of this motorcycle which is like anybody would know that right but i i showed it to my my six-year-old and he started crying because he didn't like to see me get hurt and i'm like oh he can't tell that this isn't real uh so i don't know that's that's done his slop detector is not advanced yet yes yes that's sad it got me thinking like you know that's that was a blind spot to me before but now like gotta be careful raising kids in this right this is why they think you're a very important man they're like my dad's in all these movies

40:13but i do like the idea of that like it's like what you're saying you can't this is a battle you can't win right trying to say like oh we shouldn't have this like the toothpaste is out of the the tube now right so it's there so i do think that it's a good idea that sora exists as this tiktok like slider where you're not critiquing every video and being like is this ai yes every video on there is ai so you just get to have fun with it yeah as opposed to like you know bringing those over to other ones like like tiktok or reels that was my take last week telling adam it's cool at least they're not trying to hide it where i get offended is when they're trying to pass it off as real and then i find out it's not that's when i get offended but over there it's like this is all ai so you see that on like reels like there's people who act like try it puts like a sora watermark that bounces around on there people try to remove that and you can like catch it pretty easily but yeah like come on that i saw some tweet that was like you know that that thing is like the fat holding the fabric of society together that little watermark oh sure i'll believe that yeah to a certain extent um the question is when will the other models catch up the ones that you can run on your commodity hardware and build these things akin to what open ai can do without the sora watermark you know at that point the fabric of society won't be held together quite so well right yeah it's getting close but the point i was trying to make with sora and their conversation thing and all of that is and then like there's there's i don't actually like look at the news but i saw some headline about sam altman pausing their ads push to focus more on making chat gpt better because their lunch is being eaten red alert he called yeah red alert i'll believe it for i'll believe that for sure uh but that's like my point like this you know they market themselves as like a six trillion dollar company or whatever and they're they're chasing ads they're chasing google and meta into ads they're making a social network like that's where agi is going that's where they're focusing their time meanwhile anthropic is just eating the enterprise because cloud code is just amazing and and then i don't know what google's doing but they're doing something nano banana is really nice and and gemini 3 but that was good for a weekend and like they're just being eaten and i think that anthropic is like the i don't know the one to watch right now because cloud code it's just so good it's a good interface yeah i'm coming here to shill cloud code i guess well i think you can't help it right like it it is it has earned its right to be schlepped in this way to not be negative about it because it is it's the winner it's the daily driver for most people now i do dabble we have friends over at augment code i like augie yeah we have friends over at source graph i like amp but those are consumers of anthropic so they're just derivatives really but they do some cool stuff did you guys see the news no source graph and amp have parted ways what they have split into two companies yeah it That makes sense.

43:30AMP is its own company now, led by Quinn and Beyond. And Sourcegraph is its own company now, led by somebody who I don't know their name, but they are now the CEO. And so it's two separate entities, two boards, but the same investors. So there's some, there's obviously crossover, but they've just decided to probably for investment reasons and stuff like that. I don't know. You know, I was at an AI conference last week in New York and the AMP booth was two away from our booth. uh and it was just amp but i think it did say by source graph uh but had this cool amp logo um i just held up the book because i met steve yegi and jean kim and got the the vibe oh yeah the vibe coding but i got it signed by them which is awesome nice yeah they kept it up to date because when they wrote that it was like six months ago is it still true i know right that's i was excited to tell steve yegi that i was like i was on this podcast shortly after him and i was just singing his praises on that.

44:30Oh, you were. You listened to it twice or something. Yeah. Yeah. Very exciting. And then I honestly didn't know that Gene Kim also co-wrote this book. And I didn't know at the time that he wrote The Phoenix Project, which is an amazing book. So that's cool. Everyone should read The Phoenix Project for sure. But I've been going to a lot of AI events in San Francisco and other places. And one thing that I had noticed that I thought AMP was just like following the trend on was that they were amp not source graph like that's how they're marketing and like at an event a couple months ago it was vs code it wasn't microsoft it was vs code was the sponsor that was the logo that was everything no microsoft naming at all and i thought that was just like the way that they were they're going but that's that's interesting i didn't know that they parted ways yeah they just announced it today so that's uh bleeding news man.

45:21Booting edge news. That's right. December 2nd, 2025. You're already here first. At least I did. I didn't catch that news yet. Yeah man. Wow. Good for them. I think that's smart. I mean I think that AMP was really pushing. I mean it's my favorite. I just can't afford it. It's my favorite to use. It seems to be expensive no matter how I hold it. Yeah.

45:46I just wish I was a little bit more richer. I wish I was a little bit taller. I wish I was a baller. There you go. Because then I can hold my AMP all day long, and I would love it. I do think – so I think AMP is phenomenal. Even though it's using the same models, it's phenomenal at planning. It's also phenomenal at execution, but it's phenomenal at planning. Like I trust its plan so much. Consulting the Oracle is just a delight. I just like saying, this is great. We've been planning this thing, but can you talk to the Oracle about this? Because that's who really is going to bless this, right? They stamp it.

46:19Oracle has blessed it. You know, but anyways, the Oracle is cool. Like their thoughtfulness around the language they use around it is just cool. The handoff, you know, for those of us who have to live under the context window is just phenomenal. The handoff option, you push control O and you can handoff once you get close to sort of like context completion or I guess context filling, whatever you want to call that. and hand off the prompt and it references the old thread for context but gets a new fresh context window i think that's the much better than claude code's way which is like basically you're mid something it's like no more for you just stop right there and wait for the context window to come back the pro move is like you come to a natural stopping point and compact before moving on so you control that more yeah i mean you might have a bigger window than i got Cause that's basically impossible to promove that one.

47:16I think that's like a chef's kiss moment, a delight. So you find a four leaf clover. It just doesn't happen too often. You can run slash context in cloud code and it will give you like a little graph of how much context you're using. And if I just spin up cloud and run slash context without giving it anything, I'm at 112 ,000 tokens. Which is insane. You need to trim up that cloud MD. it's it's that it's the mcp file like mcp tools loading in how many tools are you using not that many it's like yeah nearly you are mcp is hungry it is and but that's also an anthropic thing that is open right they they did that i think the skills are are where it's at right now at least i think that the mcp is on its way out and skills or something like it is on its way in because it's just a better way or some kind of tool discovery do you have any skills i do i have a whole marketplace you can get the nick nesey official marketplace i'm just saying now i know why he's here he's you're gonna show his marketplace okay let's hear this marketplace skills oh like they just have this you can create a git repo and you put like a marketplace.json in it and it can then and then you can just say like plug-in add marketplace uh whatever nick slash Claude plugins, I think is mine.

48:38And then you can like install all of these plugins from me that are like agents or commands or whatever. And it's just a way for me to like move them out of my dot files and into a way that you can pick and choose which ones that you actually want. And play around with it. What are some of the skills you may find there? Do you have any nunchuck skills? Any go hunting skills? I've been talking a lot with Chris Boneskull Hiller. I almost said Boneskill because he's Boneskills. that'd be a good rebrand yeah we've been going back and forth on this because he's he's digging really into this as well is he digging into this oh yeah okay um and the like one that that's really good is uh i have a code simplifier one that like after we get something working this just goes through and it tries to like in a way de-slopify the code so it's going to remove the comments that no human would actually write it's going to simplify things it's going to look for things but it's going to do it around the vision that it shouldn't break the things that work right now.

49:41It should just clean the code up. And so that's a great thing to run. So I just told my claw to do that at times. But does your skill have details about how you want that to happen? Is that what the skill is in there? Yeah. Instead of just saying, hey, do a pass and just clean everything up. It actually has details. And how do you trigger that then? I just it's set up as an agent a sub agent so it'll like kick off its own context window and go so I just say ask agent code simplifier to simplify this code or something like that can't you give it a cooler name than that like why are you gonna call it agent code simplifier can you like agent x or something you know well because it's in my play at my marketplace now it's like at nick nesey colon essentials slash I don't know like yeah it's it's a whole thing now But you could call it whatever you want.

50:32You could take it and copy it and call it whatever you want. That's a cool one. I also made one that is a – it's like a consultant because, like, I also want to experiment with these other models and figure out what's going on. And so I made a consultant that can do three different things depending on how you ask it. The first one is you can be like, ah, I don't know. you know if claude is like spinning its wheels on something or gets stuck i can be like that doesn't sound right consult with codex and it will go spin off a sub-agent call open up codex cli as an mcp server and talk to it and ask it to weigh in and then uh or and it can do that with codex um perplexity grok gemini and maybe it's just claude uh as like a like a separate sub-agent clock.

51:26It can do that. It can also do a, um, or like a deep research where it will ask all five of them to do deep research and then it will collate the answers together and give you a result. But then like building on top of that, it can also deliberate where it will ask them all to do the research or to answer a question and it will get all five answers back. And then it will give all five answers to all five of them again and be like, Grok said this codex said that and have them like whittle down to an answer and then it's like oh okay based on what you want like gemini's solution seems to be the best right you need to get 12 of these set up and then ask them what you have for lunch you know and just go scorched earth on your entire life just like how much energy can i use on simple mundane tasks like five is not enough can i get what's cost one thousand dollars a million dollar question what should i have for lunch you know have we already talked about this because i've totally done that have you really oh my gosh oh my gosh i'm what you might call a picky eater like in like so did you is that part of your context window then like nick's menu choices i was at a lunch like or a dinner and it was at some like weird fusion restaurant that nothing looked decent and so like discreetly when nobody at the table was looking i just kind of like snapped a picture of the whole menu and asked chat gpt i'm like i'm pretty plain what is like the safest possible thing i could eat on this menu and he picked it out and it was great that's not a bad use actually i thought you were asking the whole quorum you know that question but just chat jbt that's just one that's just yeah go for it that's what they're there for you know those moments in life where you're like i could just use somebody else to scan this for me and give me some advice here good use yeah good use okay so you're you're just clawed coding it up man oh yeah oh yeah love it all day now how much of this is work all of it it's all work he's contractually obligated to say that all of it i'm currently a team of one.

53:35And so I make up for that by having a up to, I think I've had up to 14 cloud code instances running simultaneously. And I use a T mucks to manage it all. I built like a little T mucks floating window dashboard that I can pop up and it shows me like, you know, this project is waiting on a response for me. This project's done. And like, it shows me the cloud status of each one. Do you ever feel like you're babysitting? Yes. Constantly. Yes, constantly. I bet. It's also the worst when I'm like, when I'm digging into a problem that I don't really know like a lot about. Like it might be in some weird language that I don't have a lot of context about.

54:14And I'm working with someone else. And they also, I don't know if you've been in the situation yet, but it's like me and another human are having a conversation. But there's a long pause between each one because we're both checking with our AIs before responding to each other. and then our AIs will like contradict each other but we're the like the middle persons between it and it's it just makes me hate this profession that when I'm doing that you should just connect the two AIs and get out of the way you know yeah you're the API between them what what does a team of one do like you do for work OS like what kind of things are you working on I work on all of the SDKs across all of the languages and frameworks and so it's all open source which is great I have no qualms about pasting any code whatsoever into any of these models because it's all in GitHub anyway.

55:04Yeah, no privacy concerns there. What's your mission with the SDKs? Improve them? Growth? Survive is mostly it. No, no. It feels like that sometimes because a lot of work comes in and I'm just like, you know, jumping from, I'll be like doing something in this project and then jumping over to Go and jumping back into, The tan stack start is like fun, but also not fun right now. Just because it's new, you know, it's, it's got bugs and it's, it's the RC. So I'm like trying to keep up with what they're doing and it's, it's a time sink, but yeah, just, you know, keeping things up to date, adding new features, supporting new, new like frameworks or, or even new like integrations.

55:50uh we just like did like a thing with convex so like you can spin up a new convex project and use work os off as as the auth provider for it and it'll like create a work os account in the background um and then when you're ready you can take that over but that's like a cool integration that we just did

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59:29so ai coding is a huge part of your life what about ai browsing if we might just turn our sites now on the new browser wars there's a brand new browser war according to people in the know such as the verge writing about browser wars and they're trying to agent our browsers now nick are you agentically browsing no no i've not for lack of trying okay there's just no there's no good browser anymore all of the browsers suck top to bottom really hot yeah every single browser even safari i'm currently using safari as my daily driver but yes it's it sucks because nothing works in it everything's like you should install chrome for this right you know yeah just a shame well in my uh on fedora i've been using oddly enough firefox it's the default install and it's super fast there and uh i had clawed right down like a a better user.js file to like lock it down and keep me safe and make it fast and all the good stuff and it's just browsing It's not a lot of work anyways, so I feel like that's pretty cool.

1:00:46I've been pretty.

1:00:52uh,

1:01:00impressed. I would say, I think it would be a letdown, really. I don't think I'm not sure I want to browse the web and constantly have agentic AI summarizing things for me. I get the summaries, but there's a time and place for it. And I'm just not sure I need it in my browser on the daily. I don't know. What I thought about this conversation, though, in the browser wars is like, how will the web change? Is the web changing around AI insofar as that we're not really going to websites much anymore? You know, and which kind of websites are we going to? We're just going to like docs and like library landing pages or the latest framework landing page.

1:01:38You know, what kind of websites are actually useful to us? Is it shopping? Is it only shopping? Is it Amazon? Is it only Amazon? You know, I think about my own traffic and it's not, it's weird traffic. You know, I'm not like going to a lot of websites anymore. And it's strange. Okay. This is actually a perfect segue into an experiment I tried knowing that we were going to talk about this. i opened up chat gpt atlas uh i have all of them on my on my machine right now i've got atlas i've got perplexities comet i've got dia that piece of crap um piece of crap i've got chrome with gemini built in and clawed for chrome and the whole the whole thing but uh i opened up chat GPT Atlas.

1:02:24Uh, and it just so happened that the last time I used that I had opened up my fathom analytics page, uh, for my website. So when I opened it up, it brought me right back to that, which is like, was interesting. Cause I hadn't looked at that in a while. And I noticed that like one of the refers was Claude.ai and it was specifically to a blog post I have about like, you should try Claude skills. And I was like, Oh cool. Did they link to me? And I was like trying to figure out how to get there and see like if i could find a page where i'm linked or something and i couldn't so then i just popped open the the sidebar in atlas and said hey i see that they're a referrer here find the page where this came from and it popped in and it's like yeah we'll help you with shopping and it had like like it was just so stupid um and it of course did not find anything so i don't i think it might have been like come up you know come up in a clawed answer or something like that but it totally failed and it jumped right into their their failing as like you know an actual a ai provider they're just a a way to sell you ads is the way that i felt as soon as it said shopping yeah but to your your like your question there like where is this all going i think that this is this might be like a canary in the coal mine of of where this is heading in that everything sucks.

1:03:50All the browsers suck right now. And it's like, when I think about other tools that are out there, like, like chat GPT's, um, whatever they call MCP. Um, but like, you know, MCP tools and there's an MCP UI project that will like, will take, it's a tool that will render a UI for you, uh, in your, your window. So like you can, you can have a chat and like the perfect example I have is like you're talking to chat GPT and like you tell it to find you an apartment in San Francisco with two bedrooms within walking distance of wherever and it will end under this budget and it like loads like a Zillow page in there a Zillow map and you can move around the map right in your chat window you didn't go to zillow.com it's like loading that and helping you find it right in the chat there and then you can have a contextual conversation around that I feel like that's where things could be going and like the browsers just not figuring out like where they belong in this is indicative of that being the future maybe the future really is just like a chat like interface for everything yeah what a shame that would not yeah right well so the example was this morning as i we were on a call with our friends at practically i and one of the questions we wanted to find out was like, just like what other AI specific podcasts are out there just to see where this show comes up on the map.

1:05:18And, you know, I guess, am I okay with this just being a list? I didn't go to any of the sites. I didn't go and check them. And I'm not doing research either, so I don't feel bad about it, but I got my glimpse, you know, of what the web is. And now this is like some weird artifact of what the web is. I didn't go to the websites. I didn't go to the podcast clients. Now down at the bottom, it does say, oddly, this is chat GPT, make a playlist, connect Spotify. Why? Because I had the search about a podcast. You think I want to make a playlist about pod? No. That's just, I don't know. It seems reaching.

1:05:54Just do what you're trying to do. I don't know. I am worried about the web, though. Like, what is the web these days? I don't know. I will say like I 100 % go I use raycast ai as my google now I just pop that up and just go to town asking it questions I've been getting into minecraft a lot with my son and so I'm like asking about obscure minecraft things and it's so great just like in the middle of the game I just pop up and be like hey where how do I you know summon this thing or how do I do whatever and like it tells me right there I don't have to go to google I never go to google you're doing command space and then tab to get there that's your option space oh you don't go command space command space opens regular raycast option space opens its ai chat window oh i see i got that set to something else then my bad so you're going to go you go to the raycast chat app versus the one that just pops up as part of the whatever you call that the launcher i suppose i guess i could do it right there because it's just you type in whatever and hit tab yeah when you said like like of google i was thinking like a simple search interface and that's the launcher right which you would get there by going command space and then tab which gets you right into the ask prompt interesting yeah you know i kind of want ai everywhere i'm at at like a an arm's length like i don't want to be in a world i suppose as a technologist and a worker and a doer like i guess in my life when I'm hanging out with friends, like phones over there, AI is not in the conversation.

1:07:26I'm not saying that, but like in areas where I'm trying to be effective and productive and thinking and researching and those kinds of scenarios, I do want an AI pretty close to me because I don't think of it like an atom replacer. It's more like an atom multiplier. How can I think bigger? How can I see more of the picture first so that I can apply my taste of the path I'm trying to go towards? Not so I can be told what to do. It's all about what is out there. What do I like? Where do my tastes align? And I'm doing my Trump thing here. Gosh, I just realized I'm doing my Trump hands. Sometimes I do a Trump impersonation.

1:08:00I get my hands. Anyways, hands down. I am just doing my thing, and I got to have the eye near me. And I'm finding my stuff, and I'm making decisions, and going along my way, and just having it nearby. How about voice? Have either of you tapped into, I suppose you talked about how you talked to it on your car rise, but like in the case, I think we're all still iPhone users. Nick, are you an iPhone user still yet? Absolutely. I just have a vision pro. I've got a vision pro. I just never know. I mean, you're trading sides so much dabbling and everything. You may have gone to the dark side to Android.

1:08:37Who knows? But let's all assume the three people in this proverbial podcast room here use an iPhone. the one thing i think missing from my life is where i can say hey you know what and in my case it's siri uh i no not right now um i want to talk to siri about what can happen here or something like it more so to maybe automate things around my life i feel like that's the next human frontier that is just like simple we should have that it should be a thing we should have that right Right. And it's not here yet. And I'm wondering if there's a dark side to this. Is there a reason why these voice assistants aren't doing it yet?

1:09:19Maybe it will break the world. I don't know. What do you think? there was a podcast i don't remember which one but they were talking about this um and about how you know somebody left ios and went to android or or went to not android went to the the very special alexa sorry that triggers but like you know the the one that you can pay a bunch in it and then it can it's basically an agentic alexa um and it would like like at the end of the it would do things and it would say that it was doing things correctly but then it wouldn't actually do them all the time 100 of the time and it's because like the disconnect between understanding the conversation and translating that into actual actions around your house is still like a gap that is not quite solved it's where i think home assistant might be the frontier that like home assistant now is i was just doing some research on this because i was just uh from the nerves conversation we had jared with lash vickman uh coming out soon is uh was really just around embedded Linux.

1:10:22I'm really, obviously I'm a Linux nerd and I'm just dabbling as much as I can just for curiosity around Linux. And I think it's just cool. Like what you can do with embedded Linux, what you can do with NERVS. And it came up to, I was like, okay, how can I do, I think it's called root project. What is it called? Root build. Root build. So you can do like your own embedded Linux kernel kind of thing. And I was like, well, what could you do around root build and Home Assistant because that's where I have just natural curiosity. And now Home Assistant has their own flavor called Home Assistant OS which is one of the preferred ways.

1:10:58They actually sell an appliance now. So they're this open source project behemoth really to automating home things. Everything's integrated into it and now they have their own appliance which just has Home Assistant OS on it. I think the frontier is like, can you get something to talk to that? Well, and I haven't doubted, but somebody has this way like, and it already exists. Shut up. Let me come on your pod and I'll tell you. But that's where I'm at. Like this home assistant, is that the tie? Is that the connection for this next, this next wave? Could be. I think that the pieces are there and there's like the, the rumors, I guess.

1:11:36I forgot the Apple guy that, that always breaks rumors. But the Gemini is going to power the next version of Siri. just super interesting uh and i hope so because siri is so bad but the underpinnings are bad for her man like it's like i asked her the day i was like are you sad siri say why because they just they've just not taken care of you you know well i'm cool with it the head of ai just stepped down yesterday i think john gian andrea well he saw google come in with gemini he's like i'm out Good job. There you go. There was rumor that they were going to buy Anthropic or like integrate with Anthropic.

1:12:16I think integrating would be great. Buying, oh, that'd be the worst. Don't buy it, gosh. No. Please don't. No. Let it do its own thing, okay? No acquisitions for that company. Be the leader. Be the innovator. Drive it. Drive it. Go. But you know, what's there today, if you really look for it, is actually pretty powerful as I'm slowly learning. like there there's the chat gpt underpinnings where you can like you can have it like relay your query that you give to siri to chat gpt and it can sometimes do it i literally asked it to play a song in my car and it somehow like sent that to chat gpt and then chat gpt just came back and said i can't play music it was so so bad but the underpinnings are there and if you've ever have you ever played with the shortcuts app yeah uh just a little bit yeah just something not exists there is a ton of power in there right now because specifically they have a bubble that you can drag in that is send this input to chat GPT.

1:13:14Here's a prompt, get some output and do stuff with it. And you can have triggers and the triggers can be like when a mail message comes in. And so I just set one up to where whenever a mail message comes in from GitHub and it has a PR number or an issue number in the subject, it takes that message, sends it to chatGBT, summarizes it, gets the link out of it. And then it like creates a new to-do, make sure that a to-do doesn't exist already and sends it to OmniFocus to put it in my inbox so that I only have one inbox to check for those things. I'm questioning if you actually do any work for WorkOS at this point.

1:13:52I was just over here thinking, this guy's a really sophisticated code monkey. I mean, look, he's just taking PRs right out of the email, goes right into my to-do list. Just send it to me. I'm going to put it right into my to-do list. I send them to Claude Code for Web, and Claude makes a PR. That's the next step of it. It won't even put it in my to-do list. The to-do will be review the PR that Claude just put up for this issue. That could be something that you could do. And then you said OmniFocus. Was that right? I thought that was a relic. Are they not? I know they're there, but I didn't think people still used it.

1:14:23I have tried so hard to leave. I have. Share your jail cell. What is it like? I've got Stockholm syndrome. I do. It's so bad. I try to leave. Every single to-do app, they don't have this one feature that OmniFocus just has and has had forever. And that's this concept of deferred dates. So I can put something in and put all of the, like, flag it and do whatever, but say, I don't care about this until next Monday. and then it will not show up in any of my automated lists until it's ready until next Monday. So I can just like set it and forget it and be assured that it's going to resurface onto my radar when I can actually work on it.

1:15:07Cause I'm not going to work on it today. And I do that with every, every single task. I defer everything.

1:15:15It's a really sophisticated way of avoiding work is what you're doing. MG, are you checking what he's doing, dude? Are you checking? Michael Greenish, by the way. That's kind of wild. So I kind of want to just have a separate session on this podcast where you just show me how you do your OmniFocus stuff. Just like a deep dive into like, could you do like an anonymized version so you can like show us your world, but like not obviously show us your world? Is that possible? I can try for sure. Or can you just show us your world and you're cool with it? Yeah. Sanitize your world first. Yeah. Show it to us.

1:15:51It's like 90 % GitHub issue stuff, which is all public anyway. So yeah, you'd probably do that. I'm really curious about that because I've been a Things user. Yeah. I've been a Todoist user. And more so recently, a Todoist user only because I'm multi-platform now, not just Mac. Yeah. And Things is Mac only. Yeah. Obviously, I love Mac, but I can't. There's things to do on wherever I'm at. Don't blame them for your mistakes. I don't know. So I guess in that case then, too, OmniFocus would not be on Linux because OmniFocus is not Linux native, are they? They're not Linux native. You can't leave the garden.

1:16:32You have to be inside the walled garden in order to enjoy the garden. You can't take the garden with you. They have OmniFocus for web, but you can't even reliably scrape that because everything is super encrypted. Well, anyways, okay. See, that's the thing, too, is like Mac traps you, I guess. I'm not even going to say this. Like, I love this machine. I've got – I can't even count the amount of tabs I have open. And then there's a whole separate Safari behind that. It's got the same amount of tabs. And I've got too much open. QuickTime still open from something I was just doing before this. And, like, this thing is not crashing.

1:17:09I can leave this thing on for 75 years, and it's just a machine. It's the bomb. I love it. But Linux is cool. There's a lot of things you can do on Linux. So I don't know. I'm in this really weird world where I like Mac, but I also love Linux. Are you doing the Omarchi thing with Linux? No. Okay. No, I think that's dumb. And if you're using Omarchi, shame on you. And not for the reason you think. Just kidding. I don't know. I'm just being silly. You do what you want out there, okay? I'm just joking around. You know, I think I'd be surprised if Omarchi has this weird cult following. It just seems such a weird thing.

1:17:48Even using it, I'm like, I'm using DHH's operating system, not an operating system for developers, which I guess you could say it's a derivative of that. But it feels so much like slapped around with his stuff. I'm not necessarily negative about the guy, nor positive. I'm a centrist when it comes to him. I'm not for nor against necessarily. And there's a lot of people who feel it's pleasing to politics, but I'll leave that aside. My choice to not use it is not because of like a belief in him or not. I just feel like it's super opinionated and not my opinions. And I feel like I'm like hanging out in somebody else's toy box and they're not my toys.

1:18:20It's not cool. So that's how I feel. I have, I haven't looked into that specifically, but like everything that I feel like everybody touts about that system and like the opinions that it makes, I just do on my Mac and it works. like i use a tiling window manager it's amazing uh i use neo vim obviously it's amazing it's a markdown editor or markdown reader still for me but um it's it's good at that how do you feel about zed does zed like ever get a spot in your life as an editor there's other editors i'm a very important man i can't be wasting time license plate you can't switch editor to this point he's to go re-license this car.

1:19:01Well, you had to at least have an opinion about it. Yeah, that it's trash. Gosh, dang. I don't think it's trash at all personally. I think it's one of the best letters out there. I have never looked at it. I've heard good things. I feel no reason to switch out of Neovim. Like there is nothing I'm missing. With Neovim, with a Cloud Code instance and a Tmux split next to it, there is nothing. That's the exact thing I want. He's also carrying around a large quantity of sunk cost fallacy because Nick has spent hours and hours and days getting his NeoVim set up. And he can't just waste that time. The time was well spent unless he switches off of Vim, in which case it was complete waste.

1:19:40I learned Lua.

1:19:44There you have it. That's the old smoking gun right there. This guy uses one indexed array languages just for Vim. Hilarious. I'm just not feeling any of the wanderlust that you're having, Adam, or even the browser situation or the web. I'm over here looking at my web history as you guys talk. And I'm just like, I go to tons of websites. I don't use very many apps. If you look at my history, I'm just like, everything's pretty much the same as it was five years ago, except for less Google searches. Like I am going to turn to an AI first. I still end up on.go a lot, just looking for a webpage or something that I can just find it faster than they can.

1:20:26But I'm not feeling like the web is very much different. from and then i'm like well maybe i'm a dinosaur so that's where i'm saying right now i'm with you on that i mean i just said how many tabs i have open they're not the same website but you were before you were lamenting how we don't go to websites anymore i'm like i've been to hundreds of websites this week and it's only tuesday well i was lamenting in that scenario where you're finding research and i didn't follow through from the research to go to those places but you know in the meantime i've got fedora linux 43 is here up as a tab i've got home assistant os here is our home assistant os is yeah i guess there's a tab open there cap cut uh github obviously website yeah i got uh oh gosh i gotta do this a parkour registration my son is in parkour i gotta gotta complete that mission the omni is now here in my tab you know hardcore parkour it's uh it was it's uh it's actually a no i don't know what you mean by that hardcore parkour.

1:21:23That's off the office. That's a clip from the office. Oh, sorry. Oh, I see. Yes, I didn't track your pickup. Twelve of my fourteen tabs are GitHub, and then I have one Codeberg tab, and I have one with the button blog post that I didn't read. See? You all browse differently. I still go to a lot of websites. It's just I worry about the web if we're trying to like AI it in the browser, and every website is just a summary of itself. like what does that do like how does that change the web that's what my my real concern is not that i don't get enough websites anymore i still go to tons but how does this shift change what the web will be that's my i suppose curiosity yeah everyone has to start thinking like if you want nobody goes to google right do we know that these llms are indexing in the same way that a search engine would so is search engine optimization the best thing especially if you have like a product that you want to sell and you want people to notice it if ai is not recommending you you're doomed like how do you get around that and how do you how do you start a new project you know like tanner lindsley can start tan stack start and he's got enough clout that he can bypass that but if i was going to start i don't know very important man.com.com t-shirt business yeah like how would i how would i do that how would i well you launched on the changelog podcast like you are right now yeah i don't know i mean would you start you know this is the nilai patel question that he asks all the time on decoder and other of his shows which is like do you start a website today like if you're starting a new business do you even start a website or do you start with a tiktok or do you start with a code burger account like what do you do and i don't know the answer to that i guess it depends on what kind of website you want to start What kind of business do you want to start?

1:23:15It seems like when it comes to e-commerce, the web still has a foothold, mostly through Shopify and then also through Amazon. But see, it would take, like Shopify is in a perfect position because they're like effectively thousands of little stores, right? Right. one mcp ui like tool and now you can shop any shopify site from any llm that you're talking to and have like a rendered thing where you're picking out you know your your favorite shirt from there and ordering it all straight through this ui that is dynamically rendered at the time that you asked for it and didn't exist before that that's interesting as a thought experiment uh yeah a lot of things happen just in time now that you didn't have to before and you're i'm actually like throw that code away yeah i don't care you can generate it again who cares kind of thing it's it's uh the things that were once coveted are kind of ephemeral in a way yeah and that's a weird feeling because it wasn't that way before you know it's like oh okay i'll just try it again you know new thought new research new thing same output similar adventure now if you're knee deep in a whole full-on product you build or something like that it's different but if it's like one sliver of something okay not the worst thing ever to have lost that or to throw it away or to spike it and try again what if for some reason some llm like perplexity for some reason favored this one blog post that said changelog sucks and like that's what it repeats to people don't do that yeah that would then we sue them for libel but finish your finish your thought though what was your thought is that was that it i'm just i don't know where to go from there but like it's it's what you're thinking about now right like how do you counteract that there's it's it's like just a mystery right now how to do all of this yeah and i feel like we're just clinging to the vestiges of seo as like the cornerstone of that and building but even that was a mystery that google would come out once every six months and say we were changing the algorithm and then like all of the seo gurus would like go into their little labs and they would test things they'd come out and they'd sell you something that said put this in your website and you'll be rich you know yeah i don't know if that necessarily changes materially from what it has been it's just a different area same different poops same pile no different pile same poop what's that saying i don't know same smell different poo i think the saying technically is same different day but i misapplied it i misapplied it that stuff changes our behavior and that's something interesting to look into sure like like one thing that is freaking terrible is this whole trend of i'm going to mention something uh but i'm not going to link to it and then i'll have like a follow-on or a comment the first comment is the link to it just it's the worst and like if you do that but if you're gonna play the game or you're gonna play the game or not?

1:26:17I know. That's the problem. I've done it before. So have I. It changes your, it changes the way you live your life. But then every time I see it, I'm like, I hate the person that did that because they're playing the game that I've also played. I have an answer for us, Nick. I have an answer. It's called mesh tastic. Here's what we do. We set up a mesh network between your house and my house. And we just connect our lands together. And we just, you know, we internet between the two houses and maybe anybody else in the region that wants to join. And we start our own little sports. splinter net where we make the rules.

1:26:49I like this. You like this? This can't go wrong at all. You can put your link right there in the, yeah, this never goes wrong. We move out to a mountain somewhere and we start our own little commune. Like that's basically where you end up, right? Unless you're just going to embrace, extend and enjoy. That's right. This is where we started. Is there any prediction you may have, Nick? You're just so full of exploration and some discovery, I suppose. Yeah. You have opinions. Do you have any predictions for obviously this next year? We're at the end of the year. Hmm. Yeah. I think that like the code, the code that we're writing is if you're still writing a lot of code, you're going to write less next year.

1:27:36I think that that's a given at this point. I think there's more, you're going to produce more, but you're going to write less. You're going to be involved less in the day-to-day minutia of the code. There's ways around that to be as productive, I think. Like one thing, I don't know. You asked for a prediction. I guess that's my prediction. Can I give you a recommendation of something to try? You can do what you want. All right. So I'm talking about Claude code because that's the one that I use the most. But you could probably do this with the other ones. But Claude has this thing called output styles that they deprecated.

1:28:14And then they got pushback on that. And so they undeprecated it. And so it's still here, at least for right now. But it's a way to change the system prompt a little bit so that you can tell it exactly how you want it to respond to you. And it ships with two examples. One of them is explanatory, where it'll give you little insight bubbles about why it's making a decision that it made or whatever. And the other one is learning. And that learning one is specifically for, you know, I want to go learn the Go programming language. And so when you have that enabled, it's going to optimize for you to fill out like some of the more like, oh, it'd be good for you to learn how to do loops in Go.

1:28:53So I'm going to stub out this method and you're going to fill it in. And it'll like give you prompts and tell you how to how to do it in like code comments. And then you can it'll pause there and have you do it. But you can ask questions before moving on. You can tweak that. You can make as many output styles as you want, but you can tweak that and you can tweak it to be more of like a, um, a business logic one. Uh, I forgot what I exactly call mine. Uh, it's, it's like, yeah, I can't remember what I call it, but you can, um, tell it to basically fill out the minutia of the code, like stub out this method, add the getters and setters and all that stuff that is boring.

1:29:32You know, just get the work done work, have it do that. But then like the core business logic stuff, pause and let me do that. And we'll talk about it and walk through it together. And you could even do most of it maybe. But like that way you're more involved in what the code is actually doing. You're stopping to take part and participate because otherwise the code is just scrolling by you. And then, you know, already like in the past, you know, six months go by and I have no idea what code I wrote six months ago that I have to go debug. It's like that week to week now with all of this code. So if you're not keeping yourself involved in it, then you don't really have a solid footing mentally on what code is passing by you and that your name is being attached to because it's still your name on the commit.

1:30:19So use that to be involved. And that's a good way to have the AI optimize for you doing the fun parts and it doing the minutia. so this uh the way you get there is how you do output style yep and it's called researcher uh no the one i let me i forgot what it was called oh that's right you forgot what it's called is it in your plugins it's in my dot marketplace because the marketplace doesn't allow for output styles okay put that in your readme or something like that same place but outside the loop mine's just called important stuff oh man well that's cool that is cool yeah that's true because you're producing more code than you probably ever have before it's whizzing by you it's like yeah that checks out that checks out but do you really code review every single line where you know for sure it it represents you know your beliefs or i guess your coding beliefs i personally try to and that's because all of the code i write professionally is on open source on github and so yeah i don't want to like i don't want my company or me to have this reputation that i'm just like slopping out this code i want it to have my seal of approval on everything and so yeah i try and stay on top of every line of it and understand that i'm on the commit message i'm i'm the one blamed in the Yeah.

1:31:50Well, let's push pause right there then. Cause I want to do a special plus plus anchoring off that. And so if you're listening now and you're not a plus plus subscriber, well, the reason why you do is because you get this little bonus from Nick. Hopefully it's good and it's worth your money, but change all the com slash plus plus. It is better. 10 bucks a month, a year, go behind the scenes with us, dig in. And, and there you go. So anything else, any other predictions that you want to share, Nick, or anything else that you want to, tease before we end this friends we're not going to achieve agi next year next year i will have you know that who's this we you're talking about humanity humanity okay say i'm not participating in any way oh man um so a little mention here at the end uh terminator one and two was on sale for black friday 4k blu-rays you know i have plex i love it theater all that good stuff and i'm so excited because i haven't had a chance to rip it yet but i'm going to uh re-watch for the first time probably 20 years terminator one and two which in my opinion the best terminator movies there are of the terminator of course right yeah you're not including three three is probably pretty good i just forget it you know i don't even know honestly it probably was it was a judgment day yeah that was second that was two right yeah judgment day It is too, yeah.

1:33:13Yeah. Rise of the Machines? What's three called? It was trash. That was trash. Terminator 3. Trash day. I don't know. The trash rises again. Yeah, exactly. But two is amazing. And one's also very good. That's part of my December point. That's a classic, Nick. Did you do that on Sora? Was that Sora? Are you actually doing that? That'll be the next one, yeah. We have to clip that, first of all. And secondly, I have to tell our listener who's not watching that Nick just slow melted into the liquid hot magma. Was it with a thumbs up? Just like Arnold did in Terminator 2. Is it 2 or 1? I don't know.

1:33:55It was 2. It was 2. 2. I think it was 2. That's right. He did melt. He melted in 2. So my plan in December is to rewatch those movies, but in 4K, in HDR, with a fantastic sound system. Very large. compared to how I watched it originally. It was probably on like a 19-inch RCA, you know, analog TV or something like that. I'm just guessing. Or maybe one of those TVs you had as furniture in your living room. You know, one of those. I might have watched it on that as a VCR, probably from a VHS tape. Oh, my goodness. So there you go. I'm dating myself, but Blu-ray for the win. 4K Blu-ray. It's a holiday plan.

1:34:31If you still like it. Yeah, I will. All right. I will. Nick. Thanks for bringing us all your whatever this has been the last 90 minutes. It's been awesome. Thank you. It was a lot of fun. It always is. Bye, Nick. Bye, friends. Bye, friends. So it was a grab bag of fun conversations. Of course, it's always good to have Nick in the house. Nick as a friend. Nick, Nick, Nick. Or should I say very important man? My gosh, that's so cool. Vim is cool, but very important man. Per a child is it's pretty funny. Honestly, it's pretty funny. OK, stick around because we do have a plus plus segment for you.

1:35:14Of course, it's better. Yeah, it is better. Changelog.com slash plus plus 10 bucks a month, 100 bucks a year bonuses just for you. Just in time for the holidays. Unwrap it. Enjoy it. And you're welcome. Of course, a big thank you to our friends and our partners over at Fly, our friends at Tiger Data, our friends at namespace our friends at notion and of course our friends at nordlair check them out they support this show and we appreciate you for doing so all right this show's done we'll see you on monday

1:36:04give me the details give me the specifics you're in cloud code and you're working on something for work os and you're really writing a feature what is your flow how do you truly you know pay attention to the code. Give me the very, very detailed visual, exactly what's happening. Paint it as best you can. Okay. So I will say I do a lot of experimenting. So I play around with, I've been playing around with, um, Stevie Aggie's thing. Um, is it beads? I think. Yeah. Looking at that, I've been looking at, um, GitHub, GitHub's thing, uh, Specify. And I just do my, I rolled my own as well and the problem with rolling your own is you have to maintain it and as things models get better are you still using the best practices like i just don't want to chase that constantly so that's why i'm like experimenting with other ones because then they can go chase it and i can just reap the benefits but i have been playing around with that also opus 4.5 i don't know if this is an opus thing specifically but like their planning mode is different now and it's a lot better it It asks you questions.

1:37:08Yeah. Like it asks you questions in like an interface. It saves that off to a dot, like in your home directory dot cloud slash plans. And then it gives it a random name for the plan, but it's there as a markdown file. And I noticed that. And it was asking me to do all of these things. It was saying like run slash plan. It kept telling me that yesterday, run slash plan. So plan does not exist. So it's like giving me a preview, I think of what's to come, but I play around with all of those. so a feature comes in if it's like a github issue i have it like i have a command that i run to have it read the issue and it's usually like let's look at like is this a legitimate thing and so if it is like it'll run through that and be like oh yeah i see that it's on this line of code where i think the problem is and that's like how i do a lot of reactive stuff is like that but i don't just trust it and say like oh yeah that's it i have like example apps and i that are just like vanilla you know, they have WorkOS auth kit set up in them or whatever.

1:38:06And I just have them, I'm like, okay, let's create a test page in that app. And you can do like slash add dir and have it work in multiple directories at the same time.