Vite documentary companion pod (Interview)

29:51I was like, well, this looks cool, but I'm not sure how far this is going to go. because I think like initially the, I was at that time, I was still a bit skeptical about the general capabilities of LLMs in general. Yeah. But yeah, that's funny. When you showed it to me, I thought the same thing. I'm like, this is neat. Like it seemed like a kind of a cool toy was my thought. You know, like this seems like a good example of something that the StackBlitz team could do. But I never expected it to be like a product that would just, you know, take over their entire company. So congrats to them, of course.

30:25And I'm sure they were pleasantly surprised that it went so well. Yeah. So what about this documentary? This is the second time you've been documentarized, right? Didn't they do a VJS documentary? They did. It's actually from the same team. Yeah, exact same team. Round two. What is that process like? It's like an everyday hacker. All of a sudden it's like, put on some nice clothes, going to get interviewed in front of hot lights and stuff. Is this something that you enjoy, you put up with because it's good for the projects? Like, how do you approach these things? Yeah, I think, again, like the two times, it's the same team, but it feels quite different.

31:04For the Vue one, the team was largely sponsored by Honeypot. And when they came to us, when they came to me about the Vue idea, I was like, sure, sounds great. because Vue was, you know, I think the Vue documentary was done, I can't remember exactly which year it was, but I was still living in suburban New Jersey. And they actually managed to fly all the way to New Jersey, come to my house to film it. But the vibe was still quite casual. They filmed me like making coffee and everything. Yeah. Yeah. And then I think we met again when I was speaking at Laracon in New York, 2019. They went to the Laracon venue and filmed a bunch of stuff there.

31:53Taylor Otwa was actually in that documentary too. Nice. But they were very professional back then. I mean, the director, Josiah, he's amazing. So did a lot of the thing is they are able to not only make fancy edits, but also they actually, you know, understand the story behind these things. They ask the right questions and they're able to tell properly tell the story behind the technologies. I think that's the that's the impressive part. so this time when they approached about another documentary actually this time this is after Honeypot actually folded so they now have to work on these documentaries by securing their own funding so they now have a new company they do need to basically secure sponsorships or sponsors to make these documentaries so they approached me and basically just tried to ask me do you have any ideas can you introduce us to some companies or projects that would be looking to make documentaries about their technologies and I was like hey we can make one about Vite and they were like wait this sounds like a great idea we should totally do this so you and or Void Zero you bankrolled it basically or how does at work.

33:23Yeah. So, uh, voice, obviously, uh, is, uh, supporting the, the documentary. We are the, we are the main sponsor, but we also managed to secure a few sponsorships from other companies that are either using Vue or actively involved in the ecosystem. So, uh, stack blitz, uh, is one of them uh uh century shopify bold and super base nice yeah so yeah so we have a quite a few um interesting companies back in the documentary too yeah that's really cool i didn't know that side of it i knew that they had renamed i wasn't sure about the rename honeypot to cult repo and that's a really cool model because they do a great job of telling these stories and making them interesting that's always the thing you're like it's the story of an open source project like what's it's a bunch of nerds writing you know code how could that be interesting but actually it is interesting and they do a good job of making it that way and so i think these things need to exist and continue to be made and so if you've if hopefully this works out for them and for you all to be worth it as an i think they have uh they are working on quite a few uh additional ones in parallel so uh i think they they did one with um with rails i believe yep i think that one's out there and then we just helped promote the python documentary as well yeah the python one angular one yeah yeah they're doing a lot of great stuff and i think it's it's definitely needed for the deaf community yeah it's so cool to be featured as a person who writes software to like have your story told, I think is, especially because it's never the story of one person.

35:08Like maybe it starts with Evan Yu, but then like the story actually weaves in and threads through all these people's lives, you know? Totally, yeah. It's really neat. It is, this is, yeah, I believe this is the great part, right? In a way, like every time I see these documentaries starting with a big shot of me, I feel a bit uneasy. I feel like I don't want these documentaries to be about just one person, right? Because it's in a way like tech open source is about people. So these documentaries should be about people.

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37:06So I've been curious about Void Zero since you made the announcement. This is a new direction for you, I suppose. Because prior to Vue, weren't you working at a big tech company? Was it Facebook? Or where were you working? I was working at Google when I created Vue. Right. And then you went indie and open source. Yeah, I left Google in 2014. team. Uh, and, uh, but I was, I went, left Google to work at a startup called Meteor, which was also a startup working on open source JavaScript framework. Meteor JS? Meteor JS. Yeah. I didn't know you worked there. Okay. Yeah. I spent, uh, less than two years.

37:50Um, so I left Meteor in 2016. So I officially became, you know, fully independent in 2016. That's when I started working on Vue full time, which means I've been working independently for like nine years now. Almost a decade. Yeah, that's a long time. And you're kind of a poster child for like, this can work. Like the open source independent thing with sponsorships can work. Now it doesn't mean it's going to work for everybody. And in fact, for most people, it doesn't work in that particular model. but for you it was working and so it's kind of you're kind of inspiring to a lot of us to say okay well if evan can do it and he can get his commercial support enough to stay independent and still provide for his family etc maybe the rest of us can too yeah i think um i think that i always consider myself lucky to make that work because to be honest like when i started doing it 2016, I had no idea if it was going to work.

38:51Yeah. I was like, let's just YOLO. Anyway, I was like, I want to just work on this thing full time and let's see how long it lasts. Right. Worst case scenario, I'm just going to go back and look for another job. But, you know, it was just so fulfilling to be able to work on something that you just work on that one thing. Yeah. Yeah. It's really cool. That being said, I think we could probably count maybe on two hands, maybe not just one hand, but two hands, people that have made that work like you have. It's not. It is. It is the exception. It's not the rule. It is definitely an outlier kind of thing.

39:31In fact, a lot of people, a lot of open source maintainers have came to me over the years asking for advice. How can we make this work? and in a way my response was always like look it's it's hard to replicate exactly what i did there's no like real formula that you can just follow yeah uh it depends on a lot on the kind of project you have you know that even if your project is like wildly popular like what kind of what kind of layer it sits on also kind of determines a lot because like for framework like Vue, you get massive exposure and constant interaction with your users. It's easier for people to feel more closely associated to a framework that they use every day compared to something that sits lower level.

40:23The more lower level it is, the more difficult for you to get this sort of connection with your users. like an example i've always used is babble because uh i was i was friend with the uh the maintainer of babble for a while uh henry henry drew he was uh the lead maintainer of babble for a while and uh they've always struggled with funding because uh even though almost everyone used them used babble right because it's just one of the dependencies the kind of once you set it up it just sits there right you don't think about it anymore right it was extremely difficult for them to do the same kind of model viewers doing because they just don't get enough eyeballs.

41:06So yeah, over the years, we've seen a few other examples successfully sort of making this work. But yeah, I've also seen so many cases where they're trying to do what we do, but it's very challenging. Yeah. Interestingly, I think Webpack was one that was making it work as well. Maybe because again, they're right there in your face. It's a build tool that you use every day. And for a long time, well, they had a good evangelism as well and large corporations using them. And so it became kind of cool to support Webpack because it was an example of like supporting open source back in the early days of that movement.

41:44What do you think about a lot of these efforts to somehow calculate out dependencies and maybe distribute out, you know, uh redistribute from the top down like from the Vue.js down to or from the Vite to the babbles of the world yeah do it that way because there's so many fundamental aspects of uh software that are completely invisible to the end user but they aren't usually invisible to the one who pulled them in originally and so maybe we can do it that way I know there's been lots of efforts to do that I wonder your thoughts on it yeah there is a project called thank you dev thank I believe.

42:22Vee and Vee are actually on there too, but we receive such a small fraction compared to what we receive from, let's say, GitHub sponsors. And given the amount of views usage in the wild, I can kind of imagine how little maintainers of smaller packages actually get. I think this model is fundamental. I think the intention is obviously good. The idea of consumers open source should try to support the dependencies you're using. In theory, that's what everyone should do. I think the fundamental problem is the donation or sponsoring open source is just not a thing in many of these companies. So if we think about who are actually getting the biggest value out of open source, it's directly proportional to the scale you're operating at.

43:25So an individual developer, if you're just making a sort of side project, you're using open source, you're not even creating value yourself. So asking them to donate to the open source project, maybe they'll donate one or two bucks a month. That's like, in the grand scheme of things, that's negligible. But if you think about a big corporation that's making billions of revenue, they're also using so much open source. But I guess for larger products like Linux or Kubernetes, they can operate in a very, very different way. They have foundations, they have bigger companies just backing those foundations.

44:03but many other open source projects kind of fall into this category where you're not big enough for these big companies to say hey we need to somehow have a strategic sort of thing to support it but you're also large enough that you have such a maintenance burden that it's no longer sustainable if you're just one person or people just spending after work hours in your spare time because you could have been spending that time with your family. But now you're somehow obligated to support all your free open source users. So I think that's the unfortunate sort of state of things for a lot of open source projects is that they are creating value for these commercial entities, businesses that's actually sort of using their open source projects.

44:57I wouldn't say it's close to free writing in a way, right? But it's also because in a lot of ways, we start a lot of these open source projects just because we want to share with people. We just want to put the stuff out there. But then people unintentionally find themselves in this awkward spot where your thing kind of blew up. It's making a lot of impact, right? Now you have a lot more responsibilities, but it's also very difficult to make the companies that are getting the most out of the thing you create to sort of contribute back properly. I think that's a systematic challenge in the way a lot of independent open source projects work nowadays.

45:42So obviously some of them eventually start companies to sort of turn it into a real business. But for it's just not a thing that everybody wants to do. And it's also maybe not feasible for a lot of the projects. Yeah. I think the corporate open source support movement was had some steam up until the market correction when money became tight. And then it was like, well, now we're doing layoffs and now we're, you know, we're tightening the belt. we're not going to, you know, give money away that we don't have to. And so it's kind of, it's lost team. But was your then idea with void zero, because probably V could just continue like Vue does, right?

46:29Like you probably just do the support. Like I'm not, I'm not saying V is void zero, but like you yourself and your team have made it in terms of support. I'm assuming continue it. Yeah. I think for V it's actually has a similar challenge because it's, It's a very high visibility project, but it's not as, it's a little, still a little bit different from Vue in the sense that it's not a framework in itself. So true, but it has F and U and it has, it's a command that you type into your terminal, right? Like you're using it actively. It's not hidden from you. And so do you think, like, I guess, what was your thinking with void zero and V?

47:16Was it like, we're not going to do the same model that we did last time? Or did you want a new challenge or a new, were you bored? I don't know. I wonder where you're. Yeah, there's, there are multiple, it's a combination of multiple factors. So one thing is my experience view with the sustainability side of view is that the success of view is an outlier and has a lot, a lot of luck involved, right? The timing, the fact that Vue was able to become now the second largest framework has a lot to do with doing the right thing at the right time. And for Vue, we noticed that we were getting some sponsorship for Vue as well.

48:00But I no longer want to, I guess for Vue, the model was that I was still doing most of the work. right uh it's not like i'm not trying to take all the credit but over the years i was still the main person that was driving view forward making the main decisions shipping the main features and all that um so i was also making most of the financial decisions for the project but for vite i essentially wanted to okay how about let's make this thing a bit more decentralized so that more people can actually work on it full time. So it's not me having to be fully responsible for the financial side of it.

48:44That was the initial hope. But then we realized, okay, this sponsorship model really, really has its limits. Over the years, we're able to call Vue sustainable. But if you think about the amount of users we have, Vue has like 2 million weekly active users based on how many people are using our DevTools extension. If we were a business and we're only getting the amount of sponsorships we get today, which is like less than a million a year, that's like, right? If it's a business, it's not a very successful business. Successful open source projects, not successful business. Yeah, in terms of conversion rate.

49:26So it's all relative. But imagine if you're a business with like 2 million users and you're only making this much. That's not a lot. So for VeeT, what I realize is like, actually, in terms of like sponsorship conversion, VeeT is doing worse than Vue because it sits a layer lower. It's not a direct framework people interact with. So people have less sort of this idea, I need to support the tool I'm using because a lot of people are still using VeeT through a framework. For example, they're using CellKit, they're using React with Vite, they're using Vue with Vite. So they're still thinking primarily about the framework instead of this tool.

50:09Plus, perhaps the Vue people, perhaps also the people who are using Vue, Vite with Vue, they may already be supporting Vue and they think, well, I'm already supporting these people. Yeah, right. So that's possibly a part of it as well. Yeah. So for me, I was thinking, okay, I want to make Vite independently sustainable, aside from Vue. I never want to just mingle, mix these two projects, right? Because when we decided to make Vite framework agnostic, I was like, okay, Vite is going to be its own thing, right? It needs to find its own way, own path to sustainability. And on the other hand, I was also witnessing this trend where Vite is becoming this shared infrastructure between a lot of frameworks.

50:55So multiple different frameworks are building on top of Vite. So I saw this opportunity to say, OK, because we think about when we talk about JavaScript ecosystem, it's always like churn, fragmentation, things come and go. right but it's it actually was it's quite rare for multiple frameworks to be betting on the same thing at the same time and a lot of these people are smart people that i also really really respect like rich harris uh fred uh you know um so i was like look like people are betting on veet veet is like serving a much bigger responsibility so i do foresee it also needs more substantial resources to support its slanting viability.

51:41And then we start thinking about what can we do to make Vee better? And that's a lot of work when I think about it. And if we keep going the way Vee is doing, what I really worry about is what if we can't make Vee sustainable enough and it just eventually people will have to switch away from it when it is no longer well maintained. And that's another big churn for the ecosystem because so many things already depend on it now. And I just don't want that to happen. So I was thinking, can we find a way to A, leverage Vite to serve as this sort of gateway to more unification in the ecosystem? so we can maybe build more fundamental stack from the bottom up to sort of leverage VEAT to unify more things in the ecosystem.

52:45At the same time, if we can make all the work on these parts sustainable through a business, I think that's better than seeing so many people just working independently on a bunch of stuff, supporting tools, and then they burn out, they give up the project, they walk away, and then the next group of people come in and come up with a new alternative. And this cycle just keeps going on for the JS ecosystem, right? Because I've seen so many of this, like such instances happen in the past. And I just don't feel like it's, in a way, what I'm seeing is people keep doing, keep redoing the work. and then they try to somehow they try to figure out sustainability and many of them fail and then they give up, they move on to other things and now we are stuck with an ecosystem of every problem has like five solutions, four of them abandoned and now you have to try to find new maintainers or a new developer will come up with a new project.

53:53I think in the early days of the JavaScript ecosystem, having so many people just stepping up and creating solutions to problems is the strength of the ecosystem, right? That's what made the JS ecosystem great. But over time, a lot of the problems have, in a way, the ecosystem has matured, right? We are arriving at more conventions and best practices on some of these problems that we can more or less consider solved problems, right? So we want to kind of, you know, find a way to provide a very solid solution to these soft problems. And we want to make it well-sustained through a good business model.

54:36Maybe not a good business model, but at least the business model needs to be good enough so that people can stop worrying about like, hey, well, these people just one day burn out because they can't find enough funding and just walk away, right? And I think the key to cracking that problem is to make the right people pay for open source, right? And that won't happen through donations. That is kind of the conclusion I sort of arrived at after all these years of working on independent open source. Yeah. Well, that's a big thing to say coming from you because you're probably one of the best donation receivers out there.

55:20And if you say that, then it's got to be true. um okay so void zero then like how does it work what's the business model you talk about these fundamental pieces underneath the heat or like where are those lines drawn i have so many it's a cloudy thing to me right now please help me understand it yeah so um so at void zero we're building uh a unified tool chain uh for javascript right so um the scope is quite large so we would cover, so obviously there's Vite, which is at the center of it. It's a dev server. It's also a production bundler. And then we have Vtest, which is the test runner. Then we have the linkter, which is based on OXC.

56:07And inside Vite, we were previously relying on ESBuild and Rollup. We rely on two different bundlers. There's a lot of reasons we did that because the technical limitations of on both sides, and we just kind of have to combine the strength of both. So now we built our own Rust-based boundary called Rolldown that kind of combines the strength of ESBuild and Rollup and Webpack. In a way, we needed the best bits of those different solutions that we just couldn't get them working together. But now we actually built something that would perfectly suit the needs of Vite itself while being more powerful.

56:50and in order to support Rodan itself and at the lower level we have all the parser, transformer, resolver, all written in Rust in the form of OXC which is a collection of these lower level tools. So essentially we want to have this vertical unified integrated stack that supports all the way up from the parser all the way up to Vite and then extend into test, linked so that you can have a Cardinal-like experience. If you've worked with Rust, when you start learning the language, the tool chain you use is Cardinal, and it covers most of the things you need out of the box. For JavaScript, we never had that kind of experience.

57:35And in a way, we're so used to... So when people get into web dev, the first thing you need to do is to decide which framework you want to use, and then which build tool, which linter, which test runner. There are a bunch of conventions and best practices, but still it's a lot, right? People will feel lost when you just try to set things up for the first time. We want to see if we can provide a sort of more coherent and unified experience to that, right? So one unified tool chain to do all these things. And at the same time, we want to make sure this thing is, well-funded, which means we are planning to do a business model where we want to charge from businesses actually making a decent amount of money instead of individuals.

58:31So we'll probably disclose more when we announce Vplus as a product, which is the name of the tool chain. It's called Vplus. So we'll share more details at the conference. But the general idea is this is not a thing that can be sustainable if you're only trying to get donations from individuals. We want to make sure that we are still keeping a very low barrier of entry. Like if you're open source, if you're individual, if you're even maybe a small business or educational, academic entities or governmental entities, you should be able to just use this thing without any restrictions. But if you are a business that's having decent amount of revenue, right?

59:19These are the targets that should be actually paying for the majority of the shares to support, support these efforts. So this is something we're trying to explore. And in a way it's, it's also my, my hope of finding a model that can sort of, you know, because we haven't really seen some, seen other projects doing this kind of thing. I think there are maybe a few examples in the wild, but this is something we're trying to explore to see if we can make the right people pay for the, essentially we want the businesses to be subsidizing the use, wider use of these infrastructure level pieces in the JavaScript ecosystem.

1:00:01And so to start this, did you raise money? Yes, we did. Yeah. And the reason for that was because you needed time to explore this or? Yeah. So the scope of this whole vision is obviously much bigger than what we can cover with just the sort of sponsorships or donations from like we did with Vue, right? If you want to build this whole thing from the ground up, you need a dedicated team of people, full-time efforts. and it can it also needs to be more structured than the voluntary model that view did because with view we never had any sort of you know goal like for view there was no concrete goals of like what the end form of view should be in a way views development was very much sort of user-driven or community-driven in a way we like we work on view we fix issues and then we discover problems users are facing, then we propose solutions to it, and then we just evolve organically.

1:01:03So it's not, Vue doesn't have sort of a fixed scope or a very concrete roadmap of what you need to achieve, say, in five years. But for this, I guess when I started having this idea, I realized, okay, the things you want to do, it's a lot. It's a pretty big scope if you want to build a unified toolchain for JavaScript. And it's something you need a team of full-time members that's fully dedicated to this goal and work closely together. And the best way to do that is still to form a business and have them properly compensated so that we can sort of, in the short term, we don't need to think about how can we negotiate sponsorships or how can we get enough individuals to donate to us.

1:01:53Gotcha. And so when you received the money, did you go out and then start hiring members of the Vite community, basically? Yeah, so we hired quite a few team members from ViteTest, from Vite. But we also had a few folks from ByteDance. They were working at the web infra team on ByteDance. So actually a few of the earliest members of the company worked on the RSPAC project at ByteDance. So they have a lot of experience and expertise in the Rust for JS tooling, which helped us kick off the initial efforts in this area. So the folks working on Rodan actually worked on RSPAC. Gotcha. Funny story. I used to call it RSPAC because no one ever told me how to pronounce it.

1:02:44And I had to say it on the show and I'm like, it looks like RSPAC. They lowercase the S. It doesn't make any sense. But our SPAC makes way more sense than our SPAC for sure. Vite Plus. Is it Vite plus other features? Is it Vite, but you pay for it? Is it bundled? Like, is it Vite is multiple things and we put them together and package them and that's what you use? Like, what is Vite Plus? I don't know if you don't, haven't actually announced the details, but like, give me a shape of the object. Sure. Yeah. Yeah, so VeeT plus is a drop-in superset of VeeT. Drop-in superset, okay. If you're using VeeT today, you can basically alias VeeT to VeeT plus, and everything will continue to work the same way.

1:03:27But in addition to VeeT dev and VeeT build, you can now also do VeeT linked, VeeT test, VeeT bench, VeeT format. I see. Yeah, so it comes integrated with a lot more capability. So it's a tool chain instead of just a built tool. And where and when is VitePlus? Is VitePlus out there? Is it going to be out there at ViteConf? So we're going to talk about more details. We're probably going to give a first demo of what VitePlus looks like in action at ViteConf. Okay. Right now it's still in active development. So we probably want to save the sort of big reveal at the conference. Sure. Absolutely. So after the conference, if I'm Jared, the open source hacker, and I want Vee Plus, I'll be able to use Vee Plus without any money, with money involved.

1:04:25I'm just Jared the dev. Jared the dev, if you're just an individual hacker, you can definitely use Vee Plus without any restrictions. Okay. Now I'm Jared, the well-funded Fortune 500 company. I cannot use Vee Plus without money. So you can still try it. You can still just experiment with it. But if you are using it in any commercial capacity, you'll need to talk to us. Are the individual components of VitePlus separately open source or no? Yes, they are. So it's the packaged deal that is. Yep, yep. So the underlying components, which includes Vite, Rodeown, OXC, ViteTest, they remain open source, remain exactly what they are today.

1:05:12Vplus is a combination of these things plus a few more Vplus-only features. So we are actually working on an integrated task runner slash caching system for MotoRepos, which tightly integrates with all these underlying tools. So that allows us to smartly infer the input for each task that you run through the system. so we smartly cache the outcome of the for example if you run vt build through v plus right we know exactly what the inputs are and outputs are so we just cache it automatically so if you um edit a file but it doesn't actually affect the the task you're running you would just get a cached output automatically okay and that will be a v plus thing so does that require a void zero server somewhere in there?

1:06:08It doesn't. Right now it's local. Okay. Do you imagine a world in which void zero servers are involved? In the future, maybe, but we don't want to make that a requirement. So these will be probably more like value-added services where it will make your, like remote caching with the system definitely will require some sort of server setup, but we'll probably make it, like we'll definitely make it feasible to use your own storage backend. Gotcha. So as Jared, the 14, 500 software team, and I want to use V plus, like, do you have it figured out in terms of my understanding of that whole deal? Like where do you interface to me when I know I have to actually come give Evan and his team money?

1:06:55Like, how does that, have you got that figured out yet? So I don't want to get into too much details, but yeah, Yeah, but we'll have a more formally documented, how does this license work? You know, the FAQ and everything, we'll have that up on the website by the time we announce it. But Vite and its subcomponents, they all remain open source licensed? Yes. And so this new Vite Plus will have its own proprietary license that you will tell more details about at ViteConf, right? Yeah, yeah. So we'll probably call it source available still. So you'll be able to look at the source code, open issues on GitHub and everything.

1:07:40But we're trying to come up with a license that would make as many people able to use it freely as possible, but still allow us to capture value from the right group of users that we believe who owe the most to supporting such infrastructure tooling for a entire ecosystem. And if this project succeeds, you believe or you hope that it will be reproducible by other people, right? Like whereas the previous one, Evan succeeded with you and with that sponsorship support. but it wasn't really a pattern that people could necessarily follow unless they were also outliers but your hope with void zero it seems and with v this time around is what if we can build something in such a way that you could take that pattern and perhaps in your neck of the woods or your little open source area of the world reproduce it and create a sustainable project Yeah, if we can sort of be the first example of that, we can also normalize the acceptance of such a model in the corporate world where, you know, there will probably be some challenges for companies to sort of realize, okay, this thing is actually using a different license.

1:09:05and if we can make this model sort of acceptable in the corporate world where next time they see it they go oh they're doing the same thing that VitePlus is doing makes it easier for other people to replicate this so Vite is open source and VitePlus is source available yeah cool well I hope it works I'm excited to hear more as you announce the details at ViteConf I appreciate all the efforts you've put in over the years and I guess the trailblazing that you've done with Vue and now with Vite, hopefully Void Zero is yet another trailblazed and one that people can follow after. And I wish you all the success in the world.

1:09:47Thank you. Anything I didn't ask you that you'd like to get on the record or say to the open source world before I let you go?

1:09:58Probably not. I mean, I probably said more than I was planning to, but yeah. But yeah, we were planning to announce all of this at vConf anyway. So yeah. Well, there will be a lot more and a lot more details on the technical front, how vPlus feels, how it works and everything at the conference. So make sure to tune in. Well, I will have to wait, but nobody else will have to. By the time this is out to our listener and to our viewer, check out ViteConf, check out the Vite documentary because it's out there, it's to be watched I've seen a rough cut and it's very good you're going to enjoy it so definitely tune in and see what Evan and his team are up to alright Evan, thank you so much this has been awesome talk to you soon thank you

1:10:47so what do you think about the future of web tooling? has Evan and the team placed Vite in a position to lead us to that future? Are you cool with Void Zero and the whole VitePlus idea? Or maybe not so much? Let us know in the comments. Yes, every single ChangeLog interview gets its own thread in our totally cool, totally free Community Zulip chat. Sign up today at changelog.com slash community. Thanks once again to our partners at Fly.io and to our sponsors of this episode, depo.dev, fabi.ai, and miro.com. Thanks also to the one, the only, the mysterious, Breakmaster Cylinder. All right, that's all for now.

1:11:29But we'll be back in your feed, talking to Jose Valim on ChangeLog and Friends on Friday.

1:11:58Thank you.