We see dead projects (Friends)

33:03Yes, this was one of the reasons why it's now being declared dead, because it was VC-backed from the start. But built by some cool devs, Jeff Schmidt, David Greenspan, he co-created Etherpad. Remember Etherpad? Ring the bell, yeah. Etherpad was one of the very first things that was collaborative editing, like Google Docs. And it was open source and self-hostable, and so people would stand it up and they would use it for their own little real-time collaborative editors inside their web apps. I think it was very cool. I'm not sure what's going on with either pad. That could probably be another story there.

33:42Matt Dibergales. I'm not sure how to say your last name, Matt. And Nick Martin. That was the team dropped huge fanfare. April 2012, largest hacker news debut of all time, according to this, probably since then. There's been larger ones, but at least at the time. It was huge. Got lots of fanfare. Lots of people trying it. Exploded in popularity. Kind of a typical hockey stick growth kind of thing. Raise more money. Raise more money. This is an MIT-licensed project that just keeps raising more money. In July 2012, they secure$11.2 million in seed funding from A16Z. They hire people. They buy infrastructure.

34:31By 2013, they release a package manager by Tom Coleman that was actually integrated into the core. There's Discover Meteor, which was either a newsletter or some sort of website co-authored by a friend of the show, Sasha Grief and Tom Coleman. Of course, you know, Sasha was big into Meteor for a long time. Really big, yeah. And, you know, things continued up and to the right. 2014 they raised$20 million Series B round and they've totaled over $31 million raised FathomDB comes out so they have a database, a cloud database Galaxy, they launched Galaxy which is like a hosting platform for media apps so that was kind of the play was like you know it's all open source and free but if you want it to be hosted by us on our Galaxy that's how you pay money and performance monitoring so they started to productize around 2013 continued to grow.

35:31I mean, the package registry had thousands of community packages, started to integrate NPM in 2015. They got worldwide production apps out there. So, I mean, not unsuccessful by any means. I call this success. For many definitions of that word, things continued to go, okay, 2016, they were making like exceeding their revenue goals according to them. But community debates arose. There was purists who loved the all-in-one simplicity. Others demanded deeper modern tooling integration. So the community started to disagree on the tech itself and the direction that it should go. They started moving towards GraphQL and that laid the groundwork for Apollo.

36:21Remember Apollo GraphQL? That's still out there, which was a spinoff. and then you know what happened basically was just like new javascript frameworks came out that were more interesting to more people and because they were like so fueled by vc money they needed to grow faster than they could grow eventually discover meteor grew outdated you know people started moving on the state of javascript survey of course is a satan grief thing he's been doing for a long time now. The state of JS actually cataloged Meteor's interest and then you can start to see the decline. And sometimes that is a what do you call it?

37:04A self-fulfilling prophecy. People start to see it declining in interest and so they are less likely to be interested in it. And just that momentum downwards can actually be a problem. And so the transparency around that actually perpetuates it. But still got worked on. And then in 2019, all of a sudden, they changed. MDG, which is the company behind it all, pivoted from Meteor to Apollo GraphQL. They saw more money in that, I think. This deprioritized Meteor's core development, frustrating people. And then in October 2019, Tiny Capital, who are owners of Dribbble and other things, acquired Meteor.js and Galaxy, that's their hosting service, assets for an undisclosed sum.

37:56So it got sold off and renamed Meteor Software. Got put into maintenance mode. I mean, more emphasizing maintenance than growth. And Tiny, which is the company that bought it, pledged they'd support it for long-term, like five years. Still out there. Still going. Yep. That's wild to think about that. They call it a renaissance. Meteor 3.0 and beyond. People still working on it. It has a small community. And so by no means dead. Legacy perhaps. The influence endures. It helped birth UJS. Apollo obviously. Other things. Storybook. But by no means did it take the world over as it was supposed to.

38:47And so in that sense, you know, the original mission of Meteor, as the future of web development. It's gone with the wind. You know, I never got on the train. I never understood it personally. It was always confusing to me. They did an interesting thing like munging server and client code early on, which of course, you know, React team has been struggling to make that a thing in the public's eyes, at least. Like they made it technically a thing, But in terms of adoption and people understanding it, it's been an uphill battle for them as well. Meteor had that from the very start. I did use it one time for a hackathon.

39:29Had a lot of fun with it. Built a game for a hackathon. And it was very strange, like, knowing am I writing server code or am I writing client code? And they were syncing stuff for you. It was very kind of advanced at the time that it was out there. had a lot of cool innovations in it maybe because of the time that I tried it but also what I tried it for to me it felt more like a toy than a tool that I would build a business around not that it necessarily was but that's just the way that it felt to me so I never took it super seriously but obviously lots of people did and they've had lots of they got 44 ,000 GitHub stars 508 ,000 installs 29 ,000 stack overflow questions So, I mean, they definitely got out there and people use it, but.

40:18Yeah. No longer as culturally relevant, surely, as it was back in the good old days. I mean, to be honest about the dead bodies in the JavaScript world is just plentiful. Yeah, that's true. Right? I mean, good luck winning that war. You know, just be happy. Even when you're winning, like two years later, all of a sudden they're like, we're just not interested anymore. Yeah, we need the new. We don't even actually, you still solve our problems. Okay, you're still good. We still don't like it anymore. Okay, we're just used to getting new things. Okay, where's the new thing? Right. That's my feeling as a front ender in the JavaScript world is just like, expect change, expect churn.

41:05And honestly, it's what tired me out of really wanting to play in that world at all. It's just like trying to keep up is basically impossible. That being said, if you look at it today, it's basically the same thing as it was five years ago. I mean, what's popular in JS land front end world today? It's React, basically. It's Next.js. You have people raging against Next.js. You have other, I mean, there's always experimentation. There's always people saying React is dead, React is this or that, but it's still just the 800 pound gorilla right now. and yeah there's been innovations along the way and alternatives along the way but it's not like there's been an upheaval you know there's this HTMX movement a return to form of multi-page apps as they call them now used to just be how you rebuilt things versus single page apps multi-page apps server side rendering full stack frameworks I think are more interesting to the JavaScript community than they ever have been.

42:10But besides from that, I mean, it's kind of been more steady in the last probably five years than it was before. I wonder if that's because of entrenchment, though. Oh, for sure. It's just too hard. There's too much sunk cost in the world of React and Next to move away from it easily. There's too much investment into the infrastructure, the usage of it. I was thinking about this recently with Git. and you make any piece of software, almost everything thinks you're using GitHub to host it. It's going to be there, and then you're going to have actions. And so CI begins with actions files, essentially.

42:52That's where your CI begins if you're starting fresh. And then everything's assumed to be around Git and GitHub. And I love Git. I think Git's great. But I just saw our friends over at Fault We're talking about the newest thing, and I'm not even sure what it's called, but there's a new thing in town to check out. Jiu-jitsu. What's it called? Jiu-jitsu. Jiu-jitsu. There you go. Which I'm not even versed in, but I'm just thinking, like, how in the world do you even – how does the world move away from at this point get? It's too entrenched. All you can do is really improve it. maybe you have some people try and use the 5 to 10 to 20 percenters they're going to try and use something different but you're just going against the current and it's just more challenging until it's not I guess slowly and then all at once that's what they say that's true slowly and then quickly slow than fast that's right that's how you get rich that's how you get poor that's how you get entrenched that's how you get disrupted so fast it is things happen in one fell swoop as they say you know that's what i heard so many swoops so meteor this is on your list meteor well angular well angular i just saw on the website okay and but meteor was on my list yeah i listened to your yeah you know is that how you spell the word meteor i don't even know m-e-t-e-o-r meteor that's how you spell meteor unless you're talking about something that has more meat in it than something else it's meteor meteor that's why i kept calling it meteor because i didn't want to accidentally say meteor like let's talk about something with more depth to it right let's get something let's get some meat on these bones in the air right let's get these meteor out here well you got another one you want to we can loop and i think it's been long enough we can loop back to quicksilver it's going to feel fresh i think it might feel fresh yeah the the pain is a little less fresh of our loss is yeah time heals all wounds i'll give it another try let's talk quicksilver people want to hear it uh take two here we go okay all right uh quicksilver if you're not familiar with this is a software from your 2003 long time ago okay that's the beginning of the internet essentially It's not actually the beginning of the internet, but it's pretty close to it.

45:21No, it's not at all. It's not at all. It's about 15 years after the beginning, maybe more. Depends on who you ask. But Quicksilver was an app launcher for Mac. At that time, OS X, not Mac OS. This is how far back it goes. A lot of people call it OS X. OS X, yes. Unless you're a Mac geek that likes Gab. That was a good one. got lost in that one you just sidelined yourself with a reference little little mac geek it's 2003 you're running mac os 10 probably like probably like lion or leopard or some sort of cat it was a big cat yes and who the heck knows which one it was but it was a kitty cat now that's right and uh quicksilver was launching your stuff man you wanted to launch things and you would go and you would go to your app directory or you would go to your doc bar and you're you're you would click the button for your your your uh your app you see it bounce you'd wait for it and that was cool no that was not cool it bounced forever no that's not cool yeah you had to do command space to conjure this new thing called a hud a heads-up display and it would give you the ability to conjure these things to happen.

46:44Apps to launch, math to be done, terminals to be opened, finder windows to be discovered is what Quicksilver gave the world. So many things. So many things. It was made in 2003 by a fellow named Nicholas Ditkoff. Made in 2003, released several versions of it, always seemed to be in beta, basically in beta for 10 years. But it was the darling. It was what launched literally the ability to have these launch bars, these launch apps to do this. It didn't win, though. It only led to innovation being done by Apple absorbing it or our friends over at LaunchBar. Yeah, absorbing it, copying it. Yeah, absorbing it.

47:33Yes, it's probably not the truth. copying the features, breaking them into the operating system. First mover advantage did not work out for them. Launch bar, Alfred, Raycast, that's what I use. Now, I did use Alfred. I'm still a semi-happy. How would I be? I'm not sure if I'm happy or not. I guess less than happy because I spent my money. I'm not using the value anymore. Owner of a lifetime license of Alfred. I'll never use it again just saying just saying if you want it I'll give it to you I mean I just don't think so I don't never say never though my buddy Justin told me that but you know I don't see it happening I don't see it happening what about Quicksilver are you ever going to go back to Quicksilver I don't even know how I don't even know where to go where would I find Quicksilver these days I think it's still a thing but I don't even know I have no idea I will say this, Quicksilver was the coolest I mean, I'm not going to say I bought a Mac because of it but it was certainly in the calculus I was like, I want a Mac because I want to use Quicksilver it was minimally attractive it was aesthetically pleasing, but it was also minimal almost invisible at times, I mean it's obviously invisible when you don't invoke it but it had a cool kind of purplish, translucent vibe to it and then the combination of things you could do like the actions you could take beyond just if it was just an app launcher then I don't think it would have been quite as popular but it had this like extensibility extensibility and like combinability that made it really powerful and you could like take a file find a file, pass it to a thing have it output something transmogrify it, I don't know capital case it and then spin it back out the other side And so the power users and the nerds, they would show you how many cool stuff you could do with Quicksilver.

49:39And that's why I wanted to run it. Now that being said, I only ever used it basically for math and for app launching, which you know to this day is what I use all my app launchers for, which is why I'm a Spotlight user. It does both those things just fine. But I wanted the power. I wanted the Quicksilver power. and so your story is basically competition why didn't it get why didn't it get better why didn't it get competed why didn't they win i think it just died in the vine i think it just uh it got there i'm not in beta it seemed to not move and so when something seems to not move and it says beta you kind of think well maybe it's not moving maybe there's no true maintenance behind this thing and so your appreciation and belief in something kind of wanes launch bar comes around seems to be newer seems to be fresher more mac native feeling same thing i think with alfred alfred is still amazing software no offense to alfred whatsoever i'm not going to use it anymore because well i moved on but i suppose i suppose if raycast died i'd probably fall back on my free lifetime license anyways we'll see you could use it again Raycast don't die well Quitsilver was open source though and these other ones aren't yeah I mean does that mean anything to you?

51:08does that not sell you on it more? or make you want to support it or use it? I think in the altruistic terms of open source of course but I'm not going to personally maintain it so the fact that it is or is not doesn't personally matter to me because I'm not doing the maintenance of it. And I'm not going to care enough to step in. It's not a problem I want to solve. That's why I'm thankful for Raycast. They've done a great job. I think Raycast is by far, they got a great free version of it. You can pay to use it as well. And it's, I think it's the best version of an app launcher. They've got a lot of cool stuff in there.

51:45And obviously they even have, I think it's like, what is it called? I don't even use it too often, but here and there, They got Raycast AI, a whole chat window. And I believe it ships free with all the free models. Now, if you actually have Raycast AI, I believe you can pay to use other models. You can swap models. You can save things. I think they could have done and should still potentially do a better job of that chat app. Like, it lives in Raycast, the launcher. So arguably, potentially the best thing they've built, a unified chat app for Mac that's Mac native is buried in somewhere you wouldn't expect.

52:31Yeah. It's like you turn over that rock, boom, gold. What's up with that? Why is the gold under the rock? It doesn't belong. There belongs in my pocket or my. On the shelf where you can see it. Yeah. I want to see the gold. Not the gold under the rock. So I don't know. Gold's pretty valuable. And Raycast is venture-backed. They could fail as a company for those reasons. I don't think they will. In fact, I haven't talked to them in a while. Yeah, but a lot of those Meteor users didn't think they were going to fail either. That's true, man. That's true. Not that you all failed, but you know what I mean.

53:03Yes. I did find Quicksilver, though, on GitHub. So it is naturally github.com slash Quicksilver slash Quicksilver. Recent commits? Recent activity? Anything going on over there? This is a bot. so I don't know for sure 5 ,909 commits total one yesterday from Trans TransFX integration bot so I'm not sure about that one in particular although on the 23rd of October there was a merge pull request pull request 3080 which was from the branch Quicksilver copy configuration build step. If you got to use Quicksilver, there it is. It's there for you waiting. And it's open source. What is it like? If you're listening to this and you do use Quicksilver to this day, let us know in the comments.

54:03We want to hear from you. Yes. Did you move it all? Did you come back? Apache 2. AV2. Are you still running macOS Lion? sorry OS 10 lion OS 10 yeah 76 issues two pull requests open not that bad it seems to be tended there's not like a thousand issues for example are you wishing you took it off your dead list no it's still dead no it's still dead it's still dead oh you guys are working on this I can't say that it's just rude I'm sorry for being rude it's just good podcast nature to say that okay don't don't If I was standing next to you in the hallway track of a great conference, I wouldn't be that rude.

54:49It's dead to me. I'm not going to use it. Can I come back? Man, absolutely. Give it a try. Raise some money. That's the way you get to prosper is raise some cash. Sounds like that's the way that you die. Maybe.

55:26Well, the last time I checked, there's only one of me, only one of you. I'd like to have more than one of me because the world expects so much from me. I can't possibly do it all. But let's be honest, that's probably a good thing. There's just one of you and one of me. But what if there was another version of you? One that already knows your projects, your notes, your team's quirks, and can actually finish the work for you. Well, that sounds like more of me, more of me time. That's what Notion's new AI agent feels like. I've been using Notion AI for a while, but the new agent is revolutionary.

56:03It's built right into Notion. Your docs, your notes, your projects, all in one connected space that just works. It's seamless, it's flexible, and you can actually have fun using it. But here's the crazy part. Your Notion agent doesn't just help you with work. It finishes it. It can do anything you can do in Notion. Write pages, organize databases, summarize projects, connect with Slack or Google Drive. It could even clean up post-meeting notes and assign tasks. It plans, it executes, and if something breaks, it just tries again. Basically, it's like delegating to another version of you that already knows how you think.

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57:14speaking of how about rethink db oh gosh man from the past slava akmachek that's right akmachet that's right whichever way you say it i'm gonna say it's right they're both right rethink was a very interesting database a scalable no sequel back in the craze of NoSQL. Database with a declarative query language for real-time apps launched in 2009 was active for probably until 2016. The company actually declared bankruptcy in 2016. The core team was disbanded. The repo was archived. I mean, this one's dead, dead. So dead. They did inspire some community forks such as ElephantDB.

58:12RethinkDB. You can go back and find that one in our archives, of course. We've had Slava Akhmachet on the show, I think, probably at the beginning of RethinkDB, and I think at the end of RethinkDB. At least two. I'm thinking two times during its heyday and one potentially on its wayday. Basia. Oh, I like that. It's a wayday. The heyday and the wayday? That's right. You're going to go on your way. Basia. be on your way now now why did everything db fail i would only speculate at this point i really don't know my speculation and this is just speculation i just think they couldn't capture market share i think mongo db was just too dominant in the no-sequel database department of the world and rethink uh just couldn't get there but didn't they write i mean now we're going deep into my brain archives because i'm starting to remember didn't they actually even write up a thing why rethink db failed and didn't we actually do an episode maybe even call why everything to be failed i'm starting to like remember something like this check out our last episode with rethink db what was called yeah i'm uh scouring the internet right now okay for information i think the long and the short of it is like no product market fit i mean that's what that's what a startup guy would say.

59:32They had some design choices that were odd. I think they, cause they had their own language. This is why when the FaunaDB people came on the show. And in fact, I think FaunaDB also at this point, can we consider that one dead? I'm not sure, but I haven't heard about it in a long time. They also created their own query language. And I remember saying like, are you sure you guys want to do that? Because it's very difficult to get people to just use your query You're like, can you have it be SQL-alike? That means that Mongo did it. So, I mean, they're all kind of following the Mongo playbook. But Mongo really did succeed where so many others failed.

1:00:11Hmm. If this is true, founder Slava Apichet said that there were two main problems. They picked a terrible market, and then they optimized the product for the wrong metrics of goodness. So they optimized for correctness, simplicity, and consistency, which are all great engineering goals, but those were not what the market valued. This is also in a day when a lot of things were happening on ABOS. A lot of databases were popping up. So we're now past a lot of this. You had CockroachDB. You had a lot of databases come out of seemingly nowhere to solve problems. Some of them open source, some of them not.

1:00:55Obviously, the ones who are not just didn't have a chance. And then ultimately, it came down to just competition AWS and adoption elsewhere. And there's a lot of motion around databases. And so you had a lot of choice. Yeah, there was a thriving market of offerings. Now we just want Postgres, right? Postgres. Postgres for life, man. Why not? you know why would you choose anything else than postgres i just don't know they were eventually acquired by the linux foundation the cncf a few months after the shutdown in 2016 and it continues to be an open source project to this day but i don't know who's using it i don't i don't know what doesn't everything continue to be an open source project to this day though i mean it's not like the source goes away otherwise it's like you could say that about anything that's dead is this i want to know if this is claude trying to get get into my good graces considering what i just said a little bit ago about amp at the very end it says why is that fun fact i see one of the discussions mentioned an episode from the changelog about rethink db you folks have quite the archive come on claude it told you that that's what it said do you have that in your ClaudeMD like, by the way, I host the ChangeLog podcast.

1:02:20We have quite the archive. I think it knows. It knows who I am. Yeah, it's definitely pandering to me because it's like, yo, great job. That is pandering. Yes. But it worked. Did it work? You do prefer Claude now to AMP. So fauna.com actually doesn't go anywhere, which was the location of FaunaDB. F-A-U-N-A dot com. it's either my block list, DNS hole, or it's dead. Mine redirected to Fauna Robotics, which is a different company. Yeah, I'm using Safari, so mine don't redirect, man. Safari does its own thing, okay? It really does. Let me go into Chrome. What does Chrome do? Yeah, faunadb.org is what you're looking for.

1:03:08Ah, okay. It's a strongly consistent OLTV database with a hybrid, blah, blah, blah. open source project is still very early stage. Yeah, you're probably looking at... It used to be.com. Well, you're probably talking about the company, and I'm talking about the open source. And the company might be gone, but the project's still open source because they all are, right? Fonadb, last commit to the Fonadb repo was six months ago. Oh, and the only commit was all six months ago. So I think they open sourced it and moved on. yeah they're like listen crunch the history put it out there cash the no don't cash the check that that'll bounce and get out of here just get out of here it's over we we didn't do it that's right i mean they had some really good ambition though i mean i remember that conversation really smart guy the cto was i recall no offense to him but i recall him just being a little just monotone.

1:04:10Monotone, he was. Right? Very monotone. Yeah. And I think he left months after our conversation. I don't know. Some things are meant to live and some things are meant to die.

1:04:26That's very final. If we keep going, I'll just keep making stuff up, okay? I'll just keep making it up. Well, should we keep going or should we call it? We do have a couple of things. uh just quick mentions icq oh gosh remember icq oh yeah let's do a little leave it list leave it list yeah like icq is cool man for sure and you were cool if you had a low icq number yeah you used to be able to buy the numbers off of ebay and stuff too did you know that probably still can probably can i was not that cool i came way late to icq in fact i got you i used it because someone made me use it you know sometimes people are talking like yeah we use this i'm like dang it i have to install a new app but i did have um there was a open source project that actually combined a bunch of chat messengers of which icq was one aim yeah um others i think it was called pigeon yeah i recall pigeon yeah our game g-a-i-m game it was a bird there was a bird one Is it the pigeon one you think?

1:05:35Yeah, pigeon was a bird. It also means like it's like a. It's spelled not like the bird, but like the language feature. I think a pigeon language is like a language that like multiple people use like as a crossover. Let me Google that instead of just talking out my butt. While you're doing that, there's a Reddit post one year ago. So this is actually 28 years, not 27 as I read it. So it says after 27 years, ICQ is officially shutting down today. Yeah. End of an era for one of the first messaging apps. So 20 years ago. Okay, so Pidgin at P-I-D-G-I-N dot I am also dead. Last modified in 2020. Is a chat program that which lets you log into accounts on multiple chat networks simultaneously.

1:06:29XMPP, IRC, Bonjour. Simple, Silk, Sephir. I mean, tons of these I've never heard of. Same time. I thought there was an ICQ. Oh, and then that's a Windows, Linux, and other units like Client. On macOS, try Adium. Do you remember Adium? That's what I was talking about. Yeah, the pigeon. I was thinking Adium. That's the bird, Adium. Yeah, I used that one. Yep, Jabber. Oh, yeah. Google Talk. Remember Gtalk? Yeah. Google probably also killed Gtalk. There's still some chat up in there. ADM is also open source. Gchat. Let's see. Latest release of ADM runs on Mac OS X. Mac OS X. 10.7.5 or newer. So this is also dead.

1:07:20Man. All this dead stuff. But I mean, these guys, it's because, you know, this audience they serve is gone. I mean, who needs to connect to these different chat apps nowadays? Nobody. Last commit here was like four years ago. So we're finding all kinds of dead projects as we just talk. To go back to the word pigeon, P-I-D-G-I-N is a grammatically simplified form of a contact language that develops between two or more groups of people that do not have a language in common. that's a great name then for a program that does what it did yeah and so if you speak you know Swahili and I speak English and we don't have a crossover language we would develop between our people groups this third simpler language so we could actually communicate we call that a pigeon language interesting very interesting so ICQ was rad ICQ was gone Skype was cool for a minute dude skype was crucial it really was a lot of good days on skype and now it's gone i assume microsoft still ship new versions of skype it's dead man who cares long with teams it's irrelevant oh yeah i would never use i'll never use teams personally what are non-microsoft people using i guess discord for voice it's probably discord at this point even real time like i guess zoom won that.

1:08:53For a while, it was Skype. You would Skype somebody. You would never Zoom somebody. Right. Then we would WebEx. Ugh, gosh. I almost punched my screen just now, dude. It was a bad situation. I almost needed a new back book. It was almost a situation here. You say WebEx, and that's worse than Rochambeau. You know, like, it's like, yeah. WebEx is just nasty nasty man you know I do miss the fact that is gosh I'm just like brain farting not ICQ IRC is IRC still a thing yeah I mean it's as niche as ever I think it had a moment when people were interested in it but then like Freenode freaked out I can't remember what happened with Freenode but like people that were running Freenode ended up being weirdos or something somebody can fill us back in on that and IRC just never had a chance in that way.

1:09:53It's a shame because there's a lot of people who found their love for the thing they do on a mail list or some sort of what were the original chat rooms called? They were like PDP hubs or something like that. I don't know what they were called. I'm not even from that era, but I kind of missed the days I didn't take a part in it. Just when it was simpler. Now everything's commercialized. If I can't make money doing this, it doesn't belong, you know? And that's just kind of sad, man. You know, it really is. I think you should scratch your own itches. That's just, you know, I'm just scratching itches.

1:10:34I got it. That's all. You know, it's a pretty wild world up there these days. You know, one thing I was taking note of when I was looking at Wikipedia for Quicksilver was how cool that logo was, man. that's what made quicksilver cool it had a lot of cool things initially yeah the cool hud the cool logo the colors the new thing it just doesn't work out sometimes and if you go to meteors as i said to meteor meteor software on youtube they're thriving like one month ago 135 views seriously I mean four months ago 3x faster builds 409 views they're thriving on there they're just busting it up putting their content out there so should I take it back no they're dead they're dead man that was me being politely facetious you know what I think is dead I think this episode is dead you know folks I'm just really sad for you because the version one was better.

1:11:48Perfect software. It was, man. It was good stuff. You know, and I think we, like, we did a good job with this episode, but I feel like we kind of botched it. Well, we botched it when we didn't hit the record button, you know. The rest of the time we've been kind of just... Regretulately here just podcasting. It's like, we gotta be here now. You know, we've just kind of been coping. Yeah, it's been hard. So I guess, you know, sorry. But also, you're welcome. yeah you know it is what it is as they say in closing i do want to say one thing okay off the you know off the the thread we're in there but i did mention amp and i do want to say that amp is free you see this jared ampcode.com i did see this this is interesting amp is free but free as in how free as in you're the product again okay they're gonna advertise to you he just went Straight backwards on this thing.

1:12:44You're the product again. Yeah. They're going to sell your eyeballs. That being said, though, I don't know what they're tracking. So I can't say that for sure. But it's the first that I'm aware of where you can use a, I've said it before, my favorite AI agent, coding agent, for free. And I've hit limits with it. So I think it's a couple hours. I don't know what the actual limit is, but after a bit, they're like, listen, we've only got six advertisers. You've seen them all. And the way it works is they show you ads in the terminal, right? Right above. So you have your prompt area. Then you have the chat area.

1:13:23That's been what's been going by. And right between those two, perfectly sandwiched. I think they've done a great job with UI on this, too. Is this subtle text-based ad? It's not even a bother, honestly. and I've actually enjoyed them. I'm like, oh, sweet. They're doing that? Cool. Nice. I find myself actually wanting to see the ads. It doesn't bother me. I mean, you're getting what you, you're opting into this free thing with like, it's all straightforward the way it works, right? So if you need to use it for free and you're okay with that supported, like, I think it's a great option. So I would say there's no shame in that game whatsoever.

1:14:04You know? If you wanted to deep think for you well ask nicely okay because it's probably gonna do it it's like there ain't no thing in here we just do around here if the whole time it's deep thinking it could it show you like a video ad like like that'd be kind of cool like turn it into askinima style like in your terminal watch those here's star wars asky star wars no not star wars that's not an ad has to be like like dawn soap or something you know like even worse all they need to do is take typical advertisements like tv commercials and they need to turn them into ask cinema with some sort of software program and feed those into your terminal that'd be sweet there's there's a dog that hunts there i think maybe but i don't know talk to our friends at sourcecraft and at very least get a changelog ad up in there you know like hey while you're sitting here waiting for this thing to go Why don't you listen to the changelog, dudes?

1:15:05So my prescription, though, for people is this. It's like, don't sleep on this free. It doesn't have to be your daily driver. But what about free docs? Who wants some free docs? Because this thing will just wind up and do whatever you want for a couple hours, unfettered, every day. So you basically have two to three hours per day of AMP code that you can just use. It still has the Oracle. It still has everything else that it has. there's nothing different about it than I can tell. It seems just as smart, just as able. And get yourself some free documentation, maybe some free thinking, some deep thinking, have it write some tests for you, stuff you don't really want to do and maybe you're not going to do.

1:15:47Maybe do a code review for you every day for free. Boom. You're wasting it. It's like free labor just sitting there. Scoop it up. Take it. All right. Well, thank you for hanging out with us. Yes. Friends. Thank you so much. Remind me. Is this our spooky episode? Spooky, man. This was spooky. Was it a little spooky? Well, you were acting a little spooky there. You're like, dead is dead. Oh, I did get it. I was just trying to lean into it. Okay. Trying to play a role here. You know, do my job. You get the Sixth Sense, you know, I see dead projects up in there. That's right. That got probably cut before we started hitting record.

1:16:34Yeah, you might have it, though. Let's say goodbye, friends. I think you did say it twice, though, so that's cool, though. Oh, good. Enjoy your Halloween. Eat lots of candy. Brush your teeth. And support open source. Stay spooky. Bye, friends. Stay spooky.

1:16:52Oh, my gosh. We recorded about 48 minutes of absolute gold. Jared and I were having a ball. We were just really in a good groove, riffing, having fun. And then Jared realized that we did not push record. Yeah, we've been doing this for a long time, but still yet, somehow, someway, we didn't push the button. And that's not cool. Now, I do believe that Riverside could have saved us. Hear me out. If you're in a Riverside session where you normally record for a long period of time and you're talking and the record button has not been pressed, You probably should change the interface or do something to let people know.

1:17:32More clarity. The whole point of Riverside is to record. And we laid down gold. And you missed it. And we did too because, hey, that's how it works. Anyways, it's Halloween. I gotta go. We got costumes. We got crazy. It's literally Halloween right now. I'm leaving. I'm going to be spooky. Go out with my kids. Have some fun. And you should too. Stay spooky, y 'all. We love you. Enjoy Halloween. Thank you.

1:18:28Thank you.