Wine Web and a whole lot of Whatnot (Friends)

27:04I'm talking like 10 ,000, 50 ,000. Like we give you a million free. Because we really want to give developers the best tools and capabilities to build their products faster. You know, and to go to market much, much faster. And where we charge people money for the service is on these enterprise things. If you end up being successful and grow and scale up market, that's where we monetize. And that's also when you're making money as a business. So we really like to align our incentives across that. So we have people using AuthKit that are brand new apps just getting started, companies in Y Combinator, side projects, hackathon things, things that are not necessarily commercial focused, but could be someday.

27:39They're kind of future proofing their tech stack by using WorkOS. On the other side, we have companies much, much later that are really big who typically don't like us talking about them. They're logos, you know, because they're big, big customers. But they say, hey, we tried to build this stuff or we have some existing technology, but we're sort of unhappy with it. The developer that built it maybe has left. I was talking last week with a company that does over a billion in revenue each year. And their skim connection, the user provisioning, was written last summer by an intern who's no longer obviously at the company and the thing doesn't really work.

28:11And so they're looking for a solution for that. So there's a really wide spectrum. We'll serve companies that are in a, you know, their office is in a coffee shop or their living room all the way through. They have a, you know, their own building in downtown San Francisco or New York or something. And it's the same platform, same technology, same tools on both sides. The volume is obviously different. And sometimes the way we support them from a kind of customer support perspective is a little bit different. Their needs are different, but same technology, same platform, just like AWS, right? You can use AWS and pay them$10 a month.

28:39You can also pay them $10 million a month. Same product. Or more, for sure. Or more. Well, no matter where you're at on your enterprise ready journey, WorkOS has a solution for you. They're trusted by Perplexity, Copy.ai, Loom, Vercel, Indeed, and so many more. You can learn more and check them out at WorkOS.com. That's W-O-R-K-O-S.com. Again, WorkOS.com. And also by our friends over at Wix. I've got just 30 seconds to tell you about Wix Studio, the web platform for freelancers, agencies, and enterprises. So here are a few things you can do in 30 seconds or less on Studio. Number one, integrate, extend, and write custom scripts in a VS Code-based IDE.

29:29Two, leverage zero setup dev, test, and production environments. Three, ship faster with an AI Code Assistant. And four, work with Wix headless APIs on any tech stack. Wix Studio is for devs who build websites, sell apps, go headless, or manage clients. Well, my time is up, but the list keeps going on. Step into Wix Studio and see for yourself. Go to Wix.com slash studio. Once again, Wix.com slash studio.

30:01Do you think our industry would benefit from like a national organization of certification rather than the subjectivity from company to company? Like we all, you know, lack of a better term, say there's a national union of web developers or developers, programmers, whatever you want to call it. and the standards aren't just determined by Amazon and their processes and Oracle and their things and so on and so forth, like independent organizations, do you think a centralized one would be a way to kind of solve that? Because I've proven it in the way we all agree. Possibly. Hesitantly. Possibly. Very hesitantly, though.

30:45However, one of the things about our industry is it's so young, and while there are common maladies between different kinds of software, it's changing still at a very rapid pace. It's very difficult to certify and to stay certified in a way that's productive around something that moves that quickly. I don't see it slowing down anytime soon. I know there are efforts to come out with certifications. Those are all good. A national certification that we all agree to, I don't know. I get skeptical of those kind of efforts personally. But it's not very capitalist, I can say that. No. I think what I like about our industry is that it's one of the few where you can just show up and do and be good at it and get a job.

31:37If you could produce a good outcome, you're hired. I disagree. Are you currently looking? No, no, but... How do you disagree? Interviewing is a completely separate skill from being a developer, in my opinion. And I am trash at interviewing, but I think I'm a pretty good developer. Okay. What I mean, though, so his question is not about the interview. It is about the certification that says I'm good enough. And so I like the fact that I don't have to go out necessarily and get a computer science degree. Sure. It says that's the gate and therefore I have the pass and so I get through the gate. Right.

32:22Yeah. So that's where I'm coming from is that if you can produce, if you can do, if you can learn, if you can learn by doing and show up and do it, you have access. That's true. It's not controlled by certification or degree or this or that. It's literally you're curious enough in this young industry we have to show up and be curious and find a path and forge that path, make a network and do and you're in for the most part. Right. Yeah. There is no true gatekeeper aside from opportunity and doing the job. But the interview process does suck. Yes. So we're not going to disagree on that. From a working agreements perspective of you've shown you can do this job, not the interview aspect or everything else.

33:10I completely agree with Adam there. That is a benefit of it is that I'm not kept out by the equivalent of law school and residency for medical people and all this else. Or renewals. Renewals of certificate. You have to repass the bar exam or be current on X to be Y. We don't have that necessarily. There's some parts of our industry that may have versions of that. Right. But by and large, for the most part, if you can be a software engineer or a developer or a producer or whatever you want to frame that person as, you can do the job and you get the job and you get paid well for the most part. Yeah.

33:49And you also can use these tools to launch a business for a pretty low cost. I mean, it's got to be one of the cheapest small businesses that you could potentially. It's software. Yeah, it's software. And anybody potentially can do that. And I agree with that because in the sense that, like, the gatekeepers in comparison to the lawyer, doctor, and all that other stuff. And obviously we're not saving lives. So, you know, no humans are harmed by this. So, of course, we don't need those kind of gates per se. So it's a great counterpoint, I think, to that thing. But, yeah, like Robbie and Jared alluded to, or just straight up said.

34:24Now the interviews, which are separate from all of that altogether, and where there are books and certifications to learn how to interview at Google or something like that. And I say that because we have the badges. The lanyard. Yeah, the lanyard. That's the fancy word. So that is something else altogether, which is a little bit ridiculous. You can almost just separate them. I have to learn to interview to get past. And then I can just do my job well. Yeah. The interview is nothing like the job. What happens to the days of, like, you know, the guy in the hoodie who sits in the corner eating Funyuns, chugging Mountain Dew, but he's f***ing crushing it.

35:04But, you know, he's not leveling up his team around him. They've kind of been shifted out of, you know, the industry in a lot of ways. Lone Wolf has really looked down upon him. Yeah, yeah. Like, that's an interesting thing to me because, like, to what you said, those are people who know it and can get the job done. but I don't want to go get a beer with them, so f*** them. Well, the job isn't merely writing the code, which is what the lone wolf thinks it is. And so there's more to the job than many of us want there to be. Sure. And because many of us are socially awkward and not skilled in that area, we'd rather talk to computers than talk to humans, right?

35:46Like that's... Right. I understand that sentiment. I've felt that way. even right now, currently. I might be feeling that way. But that's not anymore. Maybe it once was because you had one engineer in your entire business, right? Or one system in who just ran the entire network. That's just not the reality of the job anymore. And so that's why I think those people are marginalized is because, yeah, they aren't fit in the entire bill. But agree that the interview process just doesn't actually interview you for the job that you're going to do, which can be maddening especially when it's difficult like right now it's not easy to get that job when it was easier you know yeah you had to go through some rigmarole and some leak code and some other crap but then you got the job at the end of it so it's kind of like okay now it's like eight rounds and then they're like thanks we've chosen other candidates exactly so it's harder or fake jobs that's a thing yeah fake jobs are a thing tell me hard about fake jobs it's not Steve Jobs brother Okay.

36:49Hi, my name's Steve. This is my brother, Fake. On a recent episode of Chains on Friends with Johnny Borsico, a panelist on GoTime, he shared his insights to fake jobs. And I think paraphrasing versions of what he said was, essentially, there's companies out there that act as if they're hiring because it helps them with their bottom line. In terms of investors, it looks good. So they have these jobs out there that are not being filled. They may even have headhunters out there collecting resumes and keeping, in quotes, keeping these resumes and these people warm, but still looking for the perfect ideal candidate.

37:31Meanwhile, they've got 15 possible really good candidates that they're not hiring. Yeah. So that totally sucks. Which is a side effect of VCs using hiring as a health metric. So VCs began using that, which kind of makes some sense, right? Like, well, if they're hiring, they must be growing. Companies growing. Yeah. So VCs are looking for a way to judge. Yeah. And then, however, whose law is this? Goodheart, perhaps? Goodheart, yeah. This is the one where any measure that becomes known ceases to be a good measure. And so companies realize, well, we're going to look better to VCs if we're hiring.

38:08And so we can't actually hire. Or maybe we have one position, but we'll put out eight. Right. Yeah. And we'll just be very picky. And we'll just get thousands of applicants. And meanwhile, all of us are out there applying like plebs and their jobs aren't even real. Yeah, that's annoying. Wasting our time. Yeah. Three months later, you get a, we've reviewed your resume and decided you're not a good fit for this one. And really, they probably did. Why would you get anything back? That's more than you usually get. That's actually kind of kind. Yeah. Thanks for letting me know. I couldn't cross this one off my list.

38:38Right. Yeah. And then you get into the position where you're like, we should regulate this then. Just like your certification question. We should regulate this. We should make sure these jobs are real before they can post a job. That is not a word I want to live in either. Like overregulation is not conducive to a free moving market. Right? Yeah. So the alternative is just to suck it up, I guess. Or like just call foul heavily when we find out true examples of fake jobs, not Steve Jobs. Mm-hmm. Fake, though, fake was a genius. But so call them out, like, say publicly you discovered this. Like, fuck LinkedIn.

39:18They've got eight job postings. And I know someone on the inside. Turns out they're all lies. Don't bother replying there in that kind of way, like shaming there because they care about image and perception. I don't want to be a cancel culture pile on kind of guy. Yeah. But I feel like if it's egregious. Yes. and it's like maybe even multiple fences, we wouldn't do it. I would say Jared and I would probably just walk away and just be like, whatever. I think somebody I've seen do this semi-well and respectfully is Gergay Oroz. He's called out several companies for various hiring practices, various things, even the whole WP Engine, WordPress situation in Muleweg.

40:02I think he does a pretty fair job of holding people to a line. It's not my demeanor. I don't think it's Jared's demeanor. We've had a couple examples in our lives when we've been marginalized by a very large company who we would say were part of the community. We were told we're not welcomed. And we didn't say anything. We just walked away. We turned to the cheek. Until now. Yes, of course. Listen, our three or four listeners would love to know right now. Shout out to George, Paul, and Fake. Those are your three listeners. Yeah, Fake Jobs is a big fan. He's worked on Pair AI, I think. Yeah, it's just a fork of Steve.

40:47Anyway, nerd fights in fork culture is a very interesting thing lately, too. It is. You bring up WP Engine and all that, but I'm sorry if you were going to go with... Well, I just don't want to be for the cancel culture, necessarily. I don't think it's necessarily helpful to ad nauseum just cancel something or ad nauseum, not ad nauseum. I don't think I need it in your brain, Jared. You were like, it's ad nauseum, Adam. We worked together long enough. I just let it go. I'm like, oh, he'll stop. He'll catch himself. He'll make it a big talking point, which just happened. Ad nauseum. Ad nauseum.

41:30I don't necessarily subscribe to cancer culture. I don't want to be canceled. I don't want to cancel somebody. I believe in forgiveness. I think people make mistakes. Yeah, I agree with that. You know, and I want to see redemption because I'm a believer, a firm believer in redemption. Well, I think there's a big difference between cancer culture of individuals. Yeah, cancer culture. Oh, that was a Freudian slip. Cancer culture. Did I say cancer? You did say cancer. You did. Yeah, I just, you know. Okay. I like it. Cancer culture. Cancer culture. Cancer is culture. Is there more that has cancer?

41:58Is there more of this 2.5 wine? No, just whatever. Roll with it. You'll be fine. Is there more of this? Yeah. He really likes it. He really likes it. Notice it's 2.5 now. He's in the key. Anybody? In the key. Anybody? We all think we should drink that. Do you think there's probably a different? Let me get you a little bit? Sure, I guess. Yeah. Jared does not like this one, by the way. I'll give you that. Oh, that's it. Yeah, it's just the light. It's okay. Just for a second. Cancer culture. Just the tip. Just for a second. Oh, God. So, but, so we're talking about cancer, cancel. Now you've put it in there.

42:30Cancel culture. Just take one breath real quick and then start again. For individuals versus companies is my thought there. And it's like as a company collectively making these moves and not just one individual that gets canceled. I think there's a lot more leeway for individuals who do so. Who are just humans. Have a feeling, a lack of understanding. make a mistake in the moment, become emotional. Companies, especially the larger the company gets, they are planning this. Either an HR is planning, somebody has made a plan and a group agreement to start to go away in a way. A room full of people decided this is okay.

43:16Yeah, right? There's some C-levels that know about this or some HR people that know about this. There's people who know and are making that conscious choice. So I tend to be more forgiving of the individual and mistakes in that way, unless you're like some people who just lean hard. Oh, I made a mistake. I'm going to keep going. You know, who do you know like that? I'm not friends with them. But, you know, they'll say that. Yeah. I mean, you mentioned the WP Engine WordPress drama. That is a lean hard and keep going. I am right fighting my position and I will not listen to the masses. And if you are canceling me, I have a large bank account.

43:55I don't give a s***. Maybe. I don't know. I haven't talked to him. I have no idea. He does seem to think that he is right. He does. And he's driving that company forward. So that is a singular individual set of opinions. But if, like, LinkedIn was putting up 50 job postings for a job they didn't have, and I learned the truth of that, I might be like, s***, you know? So contextually, there's a version of standing up and there's a version of canceling. And I think in the case of like a Matt situation, I'm not subscribing to the idea while I disagree with several of his moves. I'm not trying to cancel Matt.

44:37No. If LinkedIn knowingly allowed in some way, shape, or form their platform to promote or allow for legitimately fake, is that even a thing? Legitimately fake jobs. Real fake jobs. Real fake jobs. Dot com. Then that's not cool at all. And I say call foul. Yes. Agreed. But if you're a small company and you're like, maybe you're between rounds. and you're getting ready and you want a pipeline for once the trigger is ready. Sounds like it's mostly startups that are doing this. Because there are situations for founders and leaders that they get into some situations where they've got risk on the line and I don't think it's necessarily okay to be like, well let me just promote this fake job and like tantalize Jared for a while and let him dangle.

45:25But I can kind of to some degree empathize because wow leading is so hard. Running a company is so hard. Does it mean you should be disingenuous? No. But am I going to be personally, as Adam from ChangeLog, going to call them out? If it was on a podcast, yeah.

45:44If it was like only on a podcast, would I do that? In the places where I'm known to share my opinions, I would share those opinions. Am I going to go out of my way to write a blog post about X, Y, and Z doing X? No. Because that's not my medium, but if they were on a podcast with us, I'm like, it sounds like that job's fake and I got friends who applied then I'm like that doesn't sound legitimate is that real? I would totally ask them that am I going to be like cancel culturing them and mobbing them? Nah it's just not my style cancel culture though starts to become like a larger and larger blanket of where it's coming from but the cancel culture is about changing perceptions within the culture of folks that feel like they've been marginalized or worse and in this sense a certain group of people feel like they shouldn't be involved anymore and so therefore everyone should feel like they shouldn't be involved anymore and it's like no opinion is supporting the thing I'm and all of that is a little egregious and you're cancelled if you don't agree with the cancelling but we talk about a startup it's nice if you have a little sympathy for a startup CEO that has taken maybe a few million dollars or so and they've made these decisions to try and give them some last gasp efforts and perception of success or just even plateauing and maintaining a status quo.

47:11I would say being a leader is hard. Being a leader with integrity is even harder then because that to me shows a lack of integrity. And I wouldn't even want to be there. As I was saying, that's why I was backpending. I don't want to be a lack of integrity kind of person, But I can at least empathize with somebody who is struggling to hold the line because there is a phrase called by any means necessary. That's true. And to some degree, by any means necessary is sometimes a bending or a curving of the integrity. Not something I personally subscribe to, but I can at least empathize with somebody who feels compelled to do so to survive.

47:48you know and the interesting aspect of that is you would see like that particular founder if this story comes up five ten years later and they were unicorns and blew up and you would say like you said by all means necessary and boy was he really willing to just buckle down and do anything to make it work and they did you know and that story is very different than the one of well they ended up drowning anyway and over a bunch of people you know this makes me think of a very good tv show Go ahead. What is it? Silicon Valley. I thought you might say that, but I was like, it sounds like the obvious answer.

48:25Silicon Valley. Richard Hendricks' character arc struggled the entire show with integrity. Yeah. There were times where he buckled his integrity. What's happening? Hey, it's Max. Hey, man. For podcast and Max. Max, you want a t-shirt? Have you ever heard of the show? No, I'm just kidding. Did you guys have Max on yesterday? No, we didn't. He ghosted us. Oh! Yeah.

48:56Yes, yes. Good to see you. We are live right now. Do you want to say hi to the folks at home? Put your face in the camera real quick. This is Max. This is Max. Max Howell. Yes. Creator of Homebrew and now T.X.Y.Z. That's right. Also, body double for Russell Crowe. Many people didn't know that. Yeah. There's some sort of familial connection. Are you not entertained?

49:28Yeah, if you want to hang out or come by in a little bit. No worries. Okay, so. What were we saying? Back to Silicon Valley. You're canceling Silicon Valley. Back to British and Honduras. It's canceled Silicon Valley. Come on. It's got to come back. Well, this is what he had. Technically, it was canceled. No, I guess it ended. This is what I'm referring to when he talks about cancel culture. It's his show. It's his show. They canceled it. No, they ended it. It wasn't canceled. Yeah, it just ended. It was great. Sorry, that was a dream of mine. It's not true. This is not true. Just a dream. So Richard Hendricks struggled the entire time.

50:08It's the entire story arc of the whole show, if you haven't watched it before. And there were a couple times he even referenced Abe Lincoln in Habeas Corpus, a very particular episode where they were planting pie holes or something like that in the Hoolicon conference so they can gain users. And that was a by any means necessary thing. Yeah. And it's wild. You watch that show. So, I mean, that stuff happens. I'm not sure if it happens that dramatically in the world. Right. That was so cool. They end up getting a lot of users. Phones caught on fire and blew up. They end up getting all these users.

50:49And then ultimately other things happened, which led to the story arc of Pied Piper. But you see that. You see these folks struggle with integrity. And I think that show is a great example of playing out someone who really desires to be towing that line of integrity. And you see him struggle. You see it in the character. and you ultimately see it in the story arc of the entire show and the product, Pot Piper, and the team, that's an example of the struggle. I think it's satire, obviously, but it's very real as well. It's such a stretch for me. I think it applies the most on the extreme ends of the spectrum.

51:33They're a startup. They had to do some things to not be in existence anymore. Then the other side of things, you're like huge fang companies. Sorry, Monomena companies. That's the new fang. It's Monomena. No, no, stop. Just put it. You can't move on until. We can put a pin in it, Jared. Okay. What's this Monomena thing? Meta, Apple, Netflix, Amazon. Wasn't that Elijah? NVIDIA. I don't know. I'm probably not getting them all right. We're working on our last. Yeah, Microsoft. Okay. Microsoft's the first one. Oh, okay. Because we think Microsoft should have always been included in fang. But anyway.

52:07They probably want it in there. they were like what's wrong these guys all right yeah what was i saying oh yeah so those big companies they're like you're in a board meeting they're like okay if we do this to over everyone we make 500 million dollars that's a hard like yeah no we can't we gotta be nice like you know i've never been in that level of a conversation right so i can't like speak to that but i think there's probably a lot of that well they also never say it that way nobody ever says it if we If you take this strategic pivot, it may harm the current environment for certain users, but we will gain these other users and give them this tangential benefit and profit.

52:47You need another yacht? I need another yacht. I could use my first yacht. I think it's a good start, yeah. I lost my yacht. I went on shore, we ported, and I was like, where's my yacht? Yeah, you had too much Chianti. I was like, forget it. I don't know. That one ran out of gas. Just forget it. Every time you buy a new one, the tank's good. The captain and all. Bye. Got a whole new captain.

53:17So integrity and certifications and, you know, this is a whole thing about, it's funny, individuals. We were speaking first about individuals building reputation versus a company reputation. and we don't actually have the same like moral agreements from the humans to the group of humans who are accompanied though i will say that because the morality kind of strips away the larger the more growth and success you get because you're perceived differently you did what you had to do to get there now if you fall down and go burning they're like oh yeah that guy was a jerk but if it goes the other direction it often feels perceived the other way yeah so the ends do justify the means.

53:59Yeah. I mean, it depends. You've seen that show. Yeah. You've seen that show Succession, right? That's not based on any kind of morality even within the... I haven't seen it. Can you tell us what it's about? That is such a phenomenal yet very, very disgusting show. Absolutely. Was it canceled? No. It ended very well. It went on probably a season too long. Maybe they wrapped it up but it was canceled. Was it? Yeah. It wasn't canceled. It wasn't canceled. No, it wasn't. No, it ended. I'd call that. It ended. Yes, they wrapped it up, but I read that it was canceled. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I'm canceled.

54:30I think you're canceled. No way, man. For saying that, HBO will never sponsor us. Brian Cox is probably one of his best roles ever. Yeah, it's amazing. Stellar acting all around, gripping, and obscene richness. Yeah, I mean, it's an incredible showcase and statement about what actually F*** You Rich is. And that family was F*** You Rich. They were so F.U. rich, they were F.U. rich against themselves. Yeah, for real. That's how rich. I mean, there was no line that would not be crossed. Yeah. Agreed. It's a great show. So whether Robbie thinks it was canceled or not, great show. Did they murder their father to take the throne?

55:16No. They tried. They certainly weren't against it. They tried versions of murder. Yeah. Business murder, yes. Yeah. Because that goes back to Gladiator, you know? He just, he hugs his dad. Yeah. Caesar. He just hugs him to death. You know that? Yeah. Walking Phoenix. Yeah. Or Gladiator. Yeah, I remember. Remember it? He realizes, so I just watched this recently. That's why I had it down pat. Yeah, go. We talked about this, yeah. So, Marcus Aurelius is old. He's dying. He's going to name Russell Crowe as the next Caesar. Maximus, whatever. Maximus Aurelius. Yeah, whatever his name is. Maximus. And Joaquin Phoenix, who is the heir to the throne, goes into his dad's tent, and his dad tells him, you will not be Caesar.

56:00And he's like, well, all I ever wanted to do was have you be proud of me, dad. Like that kind of thing. And he's like, my son. And then they get close, and he hugs him, and he straight strangles him to death and takes the throne. Yeah. That's succession right there. That's some succession. Speaking of things that strangle you to death, how do you feel about TypeScript? Well, I stay as far away as I can. Just like Marcus really should have stayed away from his son. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Always have a buddy. That's good. No, that's a good, that's a good pivot into the way back into the, what not? Yeah, we've got a lot of whatnot.

56:36A lot of whatnot.

56:58Okay, friends, I'm here with a new friend of ours over at Timescale Avthar Suothin. So Avthar, help me understand what exactly is Timescale? So Timescale is a Postgres company. We build tools in the cloud and in the open source ecosystem that allow developers to do more with Postgres. So using it for things like time series, analytics, and more recently, AI applications like RAG and search and agents. Okay, if our listeners were trying to get started with Postgres, Timescale, AI application development, what would you tell them? What's a good roadmap? If you're a developer out there, you're either getting tasked with building an AI application or you're interested and you're seeing all the innovation going on in the space and want to get involved yourself.

57:40And the good news is that any developer today can become an AI engineer using tools that they already know and love. And so the work that we've been doing at timescale with the PGAI project is allowing developers to build AI applications with the tools and with the database that they already know, and that being Postgres. What this means is that you can actually level up your career, you can build new interesting projects, you can add more skills without learning a whole new set of technologies. and the best part is it's all open source both pgai and pg vector scale are open source you can go and spin it up on your local machine via docker follow one of the tutorials on the timescale blog build these cutting-edge applications like rag and search without having to learn 10 different new technologies and just using postgres in the sql query language that you will probably already know and are familiar with so yeah that's it get started today it's a pgai project and just go to any of the timescale GitHub repos, either the PGAI one or the PGAI VectorScale one, and follow one of the tutorials to get started with becoming an AI engineer just using Postgres.

58:46Okay, just use Postgres and just use Postgres to get started with AI development, build RAG, search AI agents, and it's all open source. Go to timescale.com slash AI, play with PGAI, play with PGAI VectorScale, all locally on your desktop. It's open source. Once again, timescale.com slash AI.

59:16Who is upset about the state of front end? I mean, like, basically just utterly disgusted with it. Right. How basically... Thoroughly. To prove at some point all business logic and API, all of that stuff has come somehow into the front end. SQL in the front end is great. I can't remember if it's Ken C. Dodds who was saying this. I don't know. Somebody was saying, like, we have a ton of folks who know React really well, subject matter experts. So rather than reskill them across the stack, how about we just figure out a way to learn once right everywhere? yeah no and i think that speaks to this state it's gonna be a hard pass for me yeah yeah yeah no i mean i like kent but i don't like that idea at all yeah i think there's something to be said for i want to learn it how to do things you know maybe not applied to front end back end database everything but like for building a front end i should be able to write it the same way forever and you just compile it to do whatever new you want behind the scenes i got a heart i got a real problem with that particular attitude, which is extant in our industry, which is like, I'm only going to learn one thing, okay?

1:00:32Right. And you guys just work around my lack of knowledge for the rest of my career, you know? Like, how about no? That's my stance. How about no? How about no? No. We're not going to do that. No, it's an option. It's not on the list. You may check yes or no. Or maybe it depends. Yeah. Yeah. This one doesn't even depend. I just think that's a terrible idea. It's a terrible idea. It's so myopic. What about Rails? What do you guys think? Rails? Yeah, what about Rails? Resurgence. Yeah, no, I think... I was a liar. I won't talk about that. They'll talk that. No, we can't talk about two things. We're trumping your topic.

1:01:12Yeah, we're moving on. Please go ahead. I was about to get a response to my... Go ahead. Get a response. That was a pretty hot table, wasn't it? Get a response. It's a response. Yes. No, no, I was just going to say, I think there's a line. I think some of it should work, but I think SQL in the front end, not a good thing. That's the line? Yeah, well. Just skip the ORM. I don't, so I think we don't need half the **** we have to begin with because Astro is the best way to write apps. Use HTML, CSS, and JavaScript. You don't need React and all the **** everywhere. Just like write with web standards, use good accessibility, do all the stuff, and then if you need some kind of more intense back end or database, use the technologies that already exist for that.

1:01:58Rails is great. Use MySQL or Postgres or whatever directly. You don't need... You don't like ORMs? Is that what you're saying? It depends. It depends. I like the sugar of ORMs. I mean, Django and Rails had ORMs. I like a good ORM. Yeah, they're true web frameworks because they give you a f***ing login. If you don't give me login, don't tell me Next.js is a full web framework. It's not. I got to have 45 other SaaS things that Triangle Company has invested in in order to make a full web framework in that context. Talk about the dependencies of SaaS on a startup. You've got authentication, login, various things like that that you have to subscribe to to deliver your application.

1:02:46It's like, nah, man. Yeah, we've replaced opinionated frameworks that have all that with a bunch of other services that you still don't write yourself. Which I think is why Rails is having a moment again. Because we're like, hey guys, remember this? This was better before we went over here. It's better. It's back. It's better again. Sorry. I don't know. I personally never left the old way because I'm a stodgy curmudgeon. And so I've just been waiting. I've just been doing it. And here it is. You described my stack right over there. You're like HTML, CSS. I'm like, yeah. Well, the sad part is, though, is we are almost 10 years deep into a platform that was not written in Rails.

1:03:28Which I have remorse over, but Jared does not. Into a platform that has all the same ideals that Rails has, so it's fine. I get it. We use Elixir and Phoenix. Okay. It's reasonable. That is also continuing to evolve and be great. Totally. That is kind of timeless software. I agree. Well, I picked it eight years ago, and I'm still happy with it. You can't say that about too many things. Right. That's true. For sure. That being said, Rails is cool. And if I was starting from fresh, because I used to do Rails before that, and I would definitely pick it back up again. Yeah. Because Ruby is a great language.

1:04:03And DHH is nice now, and it's making friends online. He convinced me to buy a framework laptop. Oh, how is that? It's pretty dope. I just haven't been able to spend enough time to make it my regular driver. But that and the Omacube is really cool. Yeah, that does sound cool. So I like being able to upgrade it if I want. And even when my AppleCare wears out, I can get it fixed. How much did that cost? I ended up buying one on sale, so it was under a grand. Okay. So it's usually, actually you can get a nicely put together one for about a grand. 800 to 1000 I'm about to get a new laptop and I am so deeply in the Apple ecosystem I'm afraid to like peek out and see because the cocoon is so warm and snuggly you're absolutely not wrong but I am curious I think the work around is you have like a rack mount mat that you can have like I message your Linux so you can still

1:05:19it's a funny thing because you can buy a MacBook Air and a frame Linux laptop and still spend less than you would on a MacBook Pro like real like high-level one yeah so it's crazy for that's the case but absolutely is yeah So there's that. I don't know. The HH was able to make it run his Apple XDR display even, too. No, he said it never worked. It worked. No, he told me it worked. I just didn't get the one level up that he did that made that work. But it would be a$200 upgrade for me to do that if I was like, I'm in. And then make that work, too. So hard to say. But I say it's worth trying, especially at the price points.

1:06:03Anyway. This episode is brought to you by Framework Locktops. I'm just trying to find people I can build. This episode is sponsored by Casey Masterpiece Barbecue Sauce. Oh. I don't know. Is it legal to say you're sponsored when you're not sponsored? We do it anyway. Is there rules to this? Holy shit. Hold on. We've been doing this for like... I think there's an FCC regulation against that. Do you have to lock... Does the FCC cover things on the Apple podcast? They won't let me be. like that. Or let me be me so let me see. That's exactly what I was thinking. I was like, do I say it or do I not say it?

1:06:39I'm like, they won't get it. But I underestimate you, Robbie. I underestimate you a lot. For Eminem. Yes. He's the goat. Yes. Apparently. He's 51 now. So that makes me feel old. Yeah. Yeah, preaching to the choir here. How do you guys normally end these shows? We're done. Bye. Yeah. Get out. We do try to ask at the end. what would you guys do if you weren't in tech like you don't have to possess this skill if you just think this is cool and I wish I could do it you can choose that too yeah I would probably be the emperor of the Roman Empire how often do you think about the Roman Empire exactly just watch Gladiator the other night yeah you're like that seems like a good job I like how you can just do this or this and everyone just does what you say my son does

1:07:36Daddy's cooking What would I do If I wasn't in tech So many things Am I retired You can be Whatever you want This is a scenario I mean Jared was able to time travel Back to the Roman Empire Well the Roman Empire Is coming back Technically I brought it to us Yeah Technically I brought it To the future But that's a nitpick Yeah That's fair If I'm retired, I would probably get in the garden. I'd probably pickle my own pickles. I'd probably make guacamole every single day. I'd probably have my own avocado tree. I would probably have my own jalapeno tree and a serrano tree or plant. That's how unschooled I am on this problem with gardening.

1:08:26Well, you haven't started. First principles, not because I'm a weirdo, but because I really want to eat good food. And there's something magical that happens when you eat really good food. And I'm not talking like pizza good food. Yeah. But like fresh vegetables, fresh spices, make your own yogurt kind of situation, make your own sauces. There's something that changes with your food whenever you've done that, and you kind of don't want to eat out anymore. Yeah. Unless it's like your favorite restaurant, and you're like, nah, not today. You know? That's kind of where we're at. I make a phenomenal burger.

1:09:06All right. You can do better than Jason and Sarah's burgers. The only thing that stopped me from going layers and layers deeper is that I don't have time to grind my own meat. Oh, right. I don't got that. But if you had time. If I was not in tech and I was retired, I would be grinding my own meat. I would be sirloin with ribeye and, you know, all the stuff. Definitely. Make my own ground meat. Cool. Cool. I'd make my own bun. Yes. Yes. Seriously. Yes. That guy in L.A. on the burger show who has the butcher shop, and he's like a chef, and he has his own butcher shop, and then he gets like a bakery out in town to do his potato rolls for his burgers.

1:09:46They're amazing. I'd fly my own plane to Columbia to get my beans myself from Raul, who's a longtime friend. Fresh bag. And I'm now a supporter of his farm. we have a co-op we would shake hands maybe kiss the cheek and I'd come back with some fresh beans and I'd grind them that day and I'd make some good coffee that's what I would do if I wasn't in tech you could be my chef in the Roman Empire you could be my chef I would direct the directors that's fair and then yeah if you guys have anything you want to plug or mention that we didn't get to I'll say we have a show coming out with DHH this week.

1:10:31So it's Tuesday. It should come out tomorrow. It's probably going to come out Thursday. When's this going to come out? Not for a while. Okay. Two to four weeks. You've heard it already. Yeah. It's out there. It's in the past. Look at our feed. You probably already listened to it. Changelog.fm. And look for something that says it's a Rails world. Nice. It might not be called that. It'll probably say Rails or DHH. We're still working on it. Yeah. I think I'm still down with that title. I don't care. All right. awesome alright cool thanks guys thanks thank you cheers y 'all cheers cheers ciao

1:11:09alright that is our first show from the all things open hallway track but it won't be our last we had great conversations with Max Howell Chad Whitaker from Sentry Alex Kreshmar from Tailscale and many more those are coming soon thanks again to Chuck and Robbie for hosting us on their podcast and for sharing a bottle of Chianti with us. Wine always tastes better when it's paired with good conversation. So I'm going to go ahead and revise my four tentacle rating. Let's go 4.5. Boom. Thanks again to our amazing sponsors, Fly.io, WorkOS, Wix Studio, and Timescale. Please support them. They support us.

1:11:50And of course, thank you to our Beat Freak, Breakmaster Cylinder We couldn't bump the best beats in the biz without you BMC I just like anything that makes me happy And I do that And then I do the next thing You're welcome Next week on the changelog News on Monday More awesome ATO interviews on Wednesday And on Friday We're working on an awesome Local first It Depends episode But I'm not sure if they'll come together by then So stay tuned Stay tuned Have a great weekend Tell your friends about the changelog Over a glass of wine and let's talk again real soon.