Following Your Principal Into a New Job with Danielle Skowronek

0:09Welcome to the Chief of Staff podcast. I'm Scott Amenta, founder of the Chief of Staff Network, and this is where we sit down with operators shaping how modern organizations actually run. Most Chiefs of Staff get one shot at building an operating rhythm with their principal. Today's guest got two. Danielle Skowronek went from the Phillies and the MLB to Under Armour, where she became chief of staff to the president of the Americas. Then her principal was named chief merchandising officer and Danielle followed her into a world she'd never worked in, while also taking on strategy, business planning, and a team of her own.

0:40In today's episode, we talk about learning a new business from scratch, earning trust from peers who expected someone else, and why baked goods might be the most underrated tool in the COS toolkit. Let's get right into it. Danielle, welcome to the Chief of Staff podcast. So nice to have you here. Thank you. Excited to be here. We've been back and forth on recording this episode quite a bit. Some of that is my fault. Some of that is just general changes in your world. I'm glad that we finally got together here. Me too. It's been a long time coming. Let's just jump right into it then. You've got a pretty incredible career, mostly coming from a sports background and agencies.

1:17You worked in MLB. I'm curious, just give us a lay of the land. What were each of those chapters before you found your role at Under Armour? I grew up loving sports. I'm from outside of Philadelphia and so I'm a big Philly sports fan. And so growing up, I always knew I wanted to work in the sports industry in some capacity. I ended up getting a marketing degree and got lucky enough out of college. I first worked at an agency to really understand advertising and media planning before being able to go home to my hometown team in the Philadelphia Phillies for three seasons there. What was great about that experience was it just got me right back into sports, which is my passion.

1:55And as I started to develop my career and what I wanted, I started to do what most people in the, at least the U.S. in sports do, which is chase their dreams and to travel and know you have to go take opportunities elsewhere before moving to DC for my next opportunity, which was not working on one team, but more of an umbrella company of monumental sports. And what was fascinating about that experience was COVID happens. And so you can't really advertise ticket sales when you can't have people at games. And so I ended up having to make a career pivot and went into the hottest industry at the time, which was real estate and got to lead a full marketing team at that point.

2:34And so that was my first foray into people management. I had 12 direct reports, a team of 20, which is probably too many in general as I came to learn. But I got to see everything from graphic design to SEO, and everything in between. So both that art and science component, but knowing that that was temporary. And so being in the DC area, I really wanted to work at Under Armour. I believed in its products since I was a little girl, always wearing it on my sports games. And being on the brand side was incredibly important to me because I worked at MLB at the headquarters. I had worked at the team level.

3:09I really wanted to get that brand experience. And so all roads eventually led to Under Armour where I'm at now. Well, I mean, sports is obviously calling your name. So you left the housing world, the real estate world, went to Under Armour. You got pulled into the chief of staff role pretty quickly, having joined in kind of a strategic projects position. Six months later, you're chief of staff to president of the Americas. What were you actually doing that kind of like allowed you to land that position so quickly? I think a lot of it is probably my ability to influence. and then additionally my ability to execute.

3:46I think what helped me stand out with Under Armour was I was always raising my hand to do more and my ability to be accountable to the group, whether I was leading them on a project and then to the leader themselves to drive results. I always leaned in and I think that's probably the foundational point of when I got to become a chief of staff. Those were the things that I think to this day still helped me stand out the most, which is I'm able to take a leader's vision and then not only execute it, but live it in a way that I think is so critically important to the success of a project, but also being able to connect with teammates and motivate them to not just do work for the sake of doing it, but to inspire them and give them the context to do it.

4:29That's actually a really incredible insight and not one that I've heard said so eloquently. And I know it's early for you, so you may be dreaming this, but that was really well said. I think this idea of not just executing on the principal's vision, but really living it is, I think, fundamentally what makes the difference between a more junior chief of staff that's really just executing on tasks and trying to hit the priorities that the principal's throwing at them versus really being that thought partner and driving the vision forward, which is, as you just said, is all about evoking emotion and getting people aligned to a common understanding of the goals.

5:06And that is a very different role than a younger chief of staff. Was it something that you found your way evolving into or something that you carried the experiences from MLB, from real estate, and you're just a natural born leader? I think it's been sharpened and refined over time. I think I've seen that step change in myself over the past six months changing chief of staff jobs because it's just a higher upstream job right now in a global function versus being really executional when, at least for myself, I was in a commercial business, which is about executing accountability towards revenue in the P &L.

5:41I think naturally though it is really sitting there and I think I go back to many times an instance in my head from my parents they always taught me to kind of keep my side of the street clean and not knowing it then they were teaching me really empathy along the way I think I was like 12 years old and I was telling them a silly story about how a girl in school was mean to me and I was complaining to them and they like just stopped and was like well have you thought about it from her side. And I'm like, no, why would I do that? They were just like, well, she might have had a different reaction to something you did.

6:14And it's such a fascinating story because I remember being mad at them being like, I'm your daughter who's supposed to take my side. And it was like foundational components. Like I sit there and constantly tell myself, like, it's my side of the street clean. And I might be frustrated in a situation by a partner, but I go, nope, there's one piece of trash. Therefore, I've got to take accountability to it. And that's really helped me along the way because it sits there and forces me to show up better and stronger as a partner. And then making sure that if I can understand the vision, how am I showing up being a better, stronger partner to driving against that vision?

6:48It's incredible how some of those early childhood experiences can carry along with you even into your career. Things that you felt probably at the time were, you know, small instances, but hard lessons learned. Mm-hmm. What were some of the first things you did in this chief of staff role? Were you working on operating cadence? Were you working on strategic projects? Were you raising your hand for the things that nobody wanted to own? What was the first call of three to six months of that role? You know, a lot of it was about the operating rhythm in totality and driving against. We were in the middle for the Americas of working with a leadership team to build an LRP, a long-range plan.

7:26And so a lot of that was about how you set the foundation for that. but also how do you drive the storyline and the connection points and making sure the leaders can deliver. And so it's crazy because it's only been two years since I've started that, but it was more executional based. Like, do we have the right meetings? Like, how are we showing up prepared? Are we driving the right conversations in the meeting? Okay, what's the output? Am I making sure the leaders are doing what they need to do? And it was less of a thought partnership, but it laid the foundation for like a good operating rhythm, allows people to show up their best.

8:00And so being able to have that foundational component at the start was incredibly important that even now, as I have more meetings and more time, I'm able to sit there and judge on my calendar. Like, is that needed? Like, what are we doing? Because the work doesn't stop. So like something else has to intern. Yeah, I think that's what's so powerful about a good operating rhythm and something that the chief of staff is like uniquely positioned to own early on, right? When you first get into the role, it's one of the first things that you can tackle. but it does unlock that capacity to then make decisions about everything else in context, right?

8:34Like, is this the right thing to be talking about? Are we discussing the right metrics? Who's the decision owner in the room here? And without that cadence, you know, it's hard to change behaviors. It's hard to go through transformation. Like those are the things that are the day-to-day rhythms of how the team operates together. And it's fascinating too, because you're able to sit there and see and kind of to juxtapose at the same time. And I was leaving my last chief of staff role in order to go into this new function, you had a very set operating rhythm. At the same time, you're starting to start an operating rhythm with a new team that they're going to question naturally, why do we have staff meetings every week?

9:09And you're kind of like, well, for these forums, I'm seeing in six months time how they're like, oh, great. I'm coming to the table with staff. I know I can get these things done. I can leverage this. And at the reverse side, I can see how the last leader or the next leader in my last role is changing the operating rhythm and where there might be potentially gaps or like they've made better strides in some things. And so it's this funny thing of seeing like your old one be changed while you set your new one. But you know, all the players involved at the same time, it's a fascinating experience.

9:40Let's double click into that because you have the interesting perspective having lived a chief of staff role in the same company under the same principle, basically twice, but in two totally different contexts. And so in January, your principal, Kara Trent, right? Correct. Who was president of the Americas, gets named chief merchandising officer. Talk to us a little bit of what that meant in terms of how Under Armour was shifting and where you and Kara kind of like turned your attention to next. It's a fascinating experience. I've talked to the live chief of staff and no one has really come across this before.

10:16But basically, Kara got promoted into taking over our product creation engine. And so she oversees more in the category structure. All of our categories, our product operations, our global go-to-market. And so shifting out of more of that global upstream type of role, we're previously downstream in a commercial region. And so she's got a fascinating experience in her own life, having run two regions, both in the Americas. And so this kind of switch is a big one. We went from talking about the business every week about how true sellout performance is doing with consumers to being like 18 months in advance, 20 months in advance.

10:53The disparity of where we were operating is so significant, but so incredibly important too, because each global and regional partner plays a significant role in how does Under Armour come to life to the consumer. And so what's fascinating is her experience is mainly in merchandising and planning. And so not only am I shifting leadership teams, we joked that she's dragging me through this because I don't have any merchandising background, right? Like I'm coming from marketing and from the sports world. And so it was a crash course in the past six months of like trying to understand so many different things.

11:29Like I'm very good at the commercial business. I needed to learn so much more about product and how you build product, the margin of product, how does it come to life in totality? It's an incredible experience as well. I've learned more than I've ever known. And at this point too, I'm learning more about supply chain than I've ever could have thought of. Do you think that had you not had a close relationship with Kara and had been working together already, would you have been the obvious pick for this next chief of staff role? I'm putting you on the spot here, but I'm curious because like, you're coming from a very different background and you're clearly a very quick learner and willing to put your hands up and take on our challenges.

12:05No, I don't think I would have, right? Like, I think it's like completely different. I've been forced to grow in so many different ways, even in my approach on things, right? It's easy to be a chief of staff to an accountable function, like someone that owns a P &L, when those leaders are used to accountability being their forcing mechanism or decision rights versus upstream, so many different things can happen. So like I've even had to change and evolve my approach and it's the best for me to do so. As a chief of staff to sit there and go, I have to be more inspirational. I have to give more context why, Like we're having different levels of conversation.

12:40It's about driving, of course, top line and bottom line always. But it's more about like how we're making sure we're thinking of the consumer in a different way than a commercial engine would. Walk us through that first week. Are you taking on a new team? Are you building a team? Are you just getting a crash course in what merchandising means and how it is like kind of the lifeblood of any retail operation? It was definitely a crash course. We did not do any type of work stuff, at least for my team, until six months in. I was a Lone Ranger for the first six months of it. Really focused just on making sure I could stand up the operating rhythm.

13:16It was more about the leadership team. And I think the first week in role, my principal wanted to call, we're reviewing the full line. And so she gathered her whole leadership team in a room. We didn't have windows. And we reviewed every piece of product we make for our upcoming line. That was probably not the first week. That was probably the first month. It was trapped in a room. We're going to understand every bit and piece of this business and the capacity, which was, again, all entrenching, but like so needed to even get a baseline understanding. And it was really helpful, I think, to myself, to her, but also to the leadership team to have different levels of conversation under a new leader in order to drive what her vision is for a first team mentality looks like.

14:00When you came into the role, you had Kara's trust. Did that buy you a certain level of grace, kind of that initial onboarding experience to this new chief of staff position? What did it not buy you? What did you have to go kind of do on your own to make sure you stayed ahead of the curve? It did not buy me the trust of my peers. So I had to build new relationships with that. That's fair. So there was that. And I think on top of it, I think the reputation beforehand of being highly accountable, driving an operating rhythm, they actually worked against me in some ways. with my peer set because people are going to expect one thing when they hear, oh, Danielle's coming over.

14:39She's going to sit there and drive a really strict operating rhythm. And I'm coming in being like, well, I'm just trying to learn. Just help me understand. And there was a juxtapose to that because it didn't match what they heard, which was fascinating. And mainly because I changed my approach as I should with the leadership team to understand them and what they need better. And then in reality, with Kara herself, it didn't necessarily buy me the full time of learning of what I needed to because she needs a thought partner and rightfully so to drive against her vision. And so the crash course, I had to find so many different ways to educate myself.

15:13I had to read other books about merchandising and product building. I had to read more about operational product creation engines on the side. And so it was an all-encompassing 90 days in order to deliver a first like peak of what a vision and a strategy could be. And it required a lot more time and energy to me to actually spend with her. I think we've spent more time with her in the past six months than we ever had in our previous role and function. Oh, that's interesting. It's almost like you're redeveloping that relationship from scratch as well because the work is so different. Correct. In my past life, I would normally give up my time with her a lot one-on-one, where now it was we had our third partner, Tara, who's our admin.

15:57She would sit there and be like, no, no, you two have to meet every week. Like there's no 50 minutes. I'm making sure you guys have it in order for us to connect more. And we had to really refine our operating rhythm. So that way we get me up to speed, but also make sure she feels supported in the way that she needs to. Let's talk about the relationship with the rest of the team. You said there was some preconceived beliefs about what you were there to do, you know, what you had done in the past, the model that you might bring to this new team. You said you changed kind of the approach by not getting in there and immediately making changes and suggestions and telling them that this is the way it was going to work.

16:35For you, it was all about learning. And I'm sure it earned you some grace and maybe built some trust by not coming in with the answers and instead by asking questions. Was it something that you learned to do like after one or two conversations and pivoted or did this come naturally? It's a little bit of both. I think what I did in order to separate my brain space before going into this new role, I quite literally sat down with myself. I think I had a weekend in between where I sat there and really reflected on my experience in the Americas. It was actually really beautiful that I did it on the day that I technically started Under Armour was the day I left the Americas.

17:11It was a beautiful coincidence. And then I was like, okay, now what do I want for myself? And so that way I could sit there and go, I want to shed this old part of me and enter into this new part. And what I did was I leaned actually just into who I am more naturally. Because I think starting as a chief of staff, as I think many do, like you start to feel a certain level of imposter syndrome. And I'm the youngest person in the room. A lot of the time, I don't have the most experience. And so I think in the Americas, I held on to this belief that like my purpose and my worth was in driving and operating rhythm.

17:46And what I wanted to shift into was how can my purpose and worth just being a thought partner to everyone, Kara, and then also her leadership team. And so how could I show up differently with that? And so I think it was active listening at the end of the day. I had one leadership team member tell me, oh, I can tell if someone is close with me if they've come to my office before. And he's like, I met with people for two years and they've never even known my office. And so like, what was the first thing I did? Went to his office for our meeting. Like, there's easy things like that. And so I wanted to make sure they saw my human side.

18:19And then additionally, I'm a baker. And so when we're trapped in a room for four weeks, I just kept bringing baked goods to make the meetings a little bit better, which went a very long way. I love that. No better way to build some trust than through some fresh baked goods. Correct. Everybody should take a note from that playbook. I don't know why we don't talk about that more. I don't know why. I tell people all the time, I'm like, baked goods make people more productive in meetings. They're happier to be there. So after that first 30, 60 days, you go on this listening tour, you're building these relationships with this new peer group.

18:52What comes out of that experience? You're not actively fixing their problems, not yet at least, but you are recognizing, I'm sure, some patterns between those conversations. Does that get relayed back to your principle? Is it something that you just internalize and revisit as the projects start to come into the foreground? What's the outcome? Well, the outcome of it is we were very focused in the first 90 days of setting her vision based off her knowledge and what her learning was. But then it goes into how do we plan a long range plan for the totality of the organization that she oversees. And so being able to do that, one, you build trust with the leadership team so you're able to implement an operating rhythm that works for them.

19:34Two, you're able to sit there and see where the business is as you're diagnosing the first 90 days of like, okay, how are we showing up in the market? and then three you're able to sit there and go okay I've got a foundation to our long-range plan and our strategy that we need to take hold of and so the first 90 days was really focused on getting the foundation of like okay where do we think the problem or problems are so that way we can start building for the future and were there things that you I guess tried to carry in from the America's playbook and that operating rhythm that either you tested and didn't work or you just knew off the bat, hey, this is a different team.

20:12It's a different function. It's a different way of thinking, different metrics. Not going to do that. Avoid, avoid, avoid. What was that mentality like? The baseline of the operating rhythm, we would always keep the same. So we have weekly staff meetings. I think we have all hands every quarter. We have offsites every quarter, the type of offsite changes based off the quarter that we're in, whether it's a people-led one or a strategy-led one. So the baseline would always stay the same. From a commercial business perspective because you're reading the business it became more critical for the teams to have dedicated time to talk about this where in reality what we have to start flexing is we have a whole go-to-market process and so the amount of meetings that we can have from a leadership team actually has to be way more flexible in our current state because the team might be with their teams building the product for two weeks in a row and so like am i making sure that that operating rhythm fits within our product creation milestones?

21:10Number one, and number two, how do I make sure the leadership team understands the priority of, hey, when we get together to talk every week, it's really about strategic initiatives and people-focused conversations. Like your product creation moments need to be focused on that in and of itself. And so like that's a different understanding from I think where the team was at and where we needed them to go. I would argue that the leadership team meeting is probably one of the most important hours, hour and a half of the week. How do you think about like the before, during and after and where your role plays a critical part in making sure that when you get to the actual meeting, it's running on the cadence that you had envisioned, that's hitting all of the main points that the leadership team needs to talk about, that's covering the decisions that need to be addressed, that's thinking about the communication coming downstream off the back of that meeting.

22:04How do you think about setting that structure? I think in general, I keep a pretty blanketed template of what a staff meeting should look like. One, hit housekeeping up front, like, hey guys, here are key dates coming in. Two, then having like a people-focused section to letting our head of HR talk about whatever is coming up in the current calendar, what issues are fluttering. Then having one to two strategic topics before closing out with like around the horn. Okay, I know we all talk every day, but like any new news, everyone wants to make the group aware of. And so having that kind of framework always is helpful in general.

22:40And then in reality, it's trying to get during the first course of a team to understand like what topics should be brought versus what shouldn't be brought into the forum. I've done over the last six months, a lot more buy-in that now I have leaders coming to me. So it's less of me having to set an agenda versus just keeping tally of what the leaders want to talk about and then piloting it and making sure it is. And then keeping a pulse on, okay, we've got this offsite coming up. I need to actually have a logistical moment with the team so they know what they're doing because they love to be prepared.

23:11And I got to respect that out of them. And so it's about learning the styles while also teaching the leadership team about the forum itself. So that way it becomes less pressure on me. It's funny how many times the chief of staff can go on PTO and the leadership teams looking at each other being like, what do we do? The chief of staff's not here. And you're like, I want to set the agenda. I sent it to someone, I have a proxy and they're like, oh yeah, that's me. But how do you make that forum run without you in it is a fascinating experience. That's interesting. It's one of the quickest ways to recognize that it's working, right?

23:46That the leadership team is working together when you're not having to go hunt down the next topics or making sure that whatever challenge is maybe being whispered about is being addressed in that room. When people are coming to you to make sure that it is spoken about and decided on. A, it makes your job a lot easier. B, it means that the team is now operating in alignment. I couldn't agree more. And I think that really is when you can start pulse checking how your team is understanding the forum is when they're coming to you and saying, this is that, or I want to close out on this, or I'm going to ask someone about this in this meeting since I don't get to see them during the week.

24:23And I know they're there and X, Y, and Z will also benefit from hearing the conversation as well. When you joined the merchandising wing, the role also kind of changed shape. You're not just a chief of staff now, you also own strategy, business, and planning. And as we just talked about right before we hit record, you're also managing a team now. What has that meant for you in the context of your chief of staff responsibilities and all this new work? They work hand in hand, but they can also be in conflict with each other. terms of just time management, it's a very natural place to be that the chief of staff should own strategy, right?

25:00Being that connected to the leader and their vision, but then also running the leadership team operating rhythm. I have a really cool bird's eye view of a lot of things happening at one point in time. And so it's a natural build of the current situation, but the amount of time to be a chief of staff needed, but then also the amount of time to be a great head of strategy is quite fascinating that I'm still working through. And I'm blessed that I've got a team, but my team is two months into their experience. And so I'm still working on my kinks with them to make sure that I have enough time for them.

25:35They've got a clear set of boundaries and rules, objectives. Am I giving them enough context? I run really fast. And so I think I'm still making sure my team's up to date because not necessarily information's outdated from morning tonight, but it can evolve quite quickly. And so how do I make sure I'm not inundating them with, hey, these are the five things that happened today? Like I'm still working through and I actually just had a team acceleration session. So they're giving me some feedback now, but it's a fast pace I run and trying to make sure that the team is set up for success in order to deliver and get more work done and be forced multipliers of the organization is gonna be my next challenge while running.

26:16chief of staff, a leadership team, and then my team as well. Was this something in the cards when you joined with Kara, when you both joined the merchandising arm? Or is it something that you were kind of aiming towards? Or did it, again, did it happen naturally where there was a need for kind of strategy and business planning team? That team didn't exist and you were the natural owner to build that out. It's a little bit twofold. Everything kind of converged in the same time. We had talked about it in my last role, but we had different structure. So I had said like, hey, my development plan is I want to be able to lead strategy.

26:50That wouldn't have been able to happen based off of the current structure in the Americas. But as we were able to enter into that role, she was able to get a lay of the land. Our leadership team had previously been promised some more business planners, but because of headcount, we had to sit there and put that on pause. And then coming into it, knowing I went to be head of strategy, knowing the team wanted this, we were very able to see like this team needed to happen in order to set the organization up. And so it just kind of all came together really beautifully at the right point in time. And I've been blessed with the team that I've won higher for with some internal talent, but also inherited that they're all really incredibly smart and want to do more and believe in the vision that we've set, which is like half of the battle I find with people management.

27:34Yeah. And there's clearly a lot of overlap between what you do as a chief of staff and obviously the context that you get, the more holistic view of the organization and working so closely with the leadership team that applies directly into that business planning and strategy department. I'm curious, maybe had you stayed in the Americas and there was the opportunity to build that team, might that have been a transition for you out of the chief of staff role and into running that team alone? And maybe that's in the cards here as well. I'm curious actually, is that something that you're already thinking about?

28:06Is it something that actually you can juggle both and maybe more chiefs of staff should be doing this? I know you're new to like running both team times. So I'm just curious to hear like your first opinion, knowing that it might change. I think it's fascinating in the sense of, I think I probably could have taken on more in the Americas with the team underneath me that was doing more of that strategic work. I think I could have handled that. The next step for a chief of staff, like I think everyone talks about, which is like, I'm not sure, like there's so many options available because you get to be a part of so much.

28:37I'm definitely focused on how do I do both and optimize right now because I love working with my principal and so I want to be able to see that through a little bit more but when I think about like the grander future I'm actually candidly trying to figure out what does that mean eventually down the line because the chief of staff is all encompassing and it does make sense for the where I'm in my personal life as well right now but I don't know if I would need to restate some boundaries or reclaim some boundaries if I went on further, which I think is the point in time that I'm questioning most.

29:10And I think that's the most interesting thing where you sit in your career right now, at least from my perspective, is the next stages of chief of staff development and the opportunities that are presented as a chief of staff and the types of responsibilities and leadership ownership that you get by keeping that title. It's still a little bit of a gray area. There are certainly more senior chiefs of staff out there than I ever was, or maybe you are today. And, you know, the leadership level can evolve, but what that ownership looks like, what it takes to get to that next step, one has to be with the support of your principal and arguably other members of the leadership team.

29:47The organization as a whole needs to be ready for it. And in many cases, they don't even know what that means. And so, you know, I think this is why we see more chiefs of staff kind of jump into that next thing so quickly, because it's a more laid out path, it's a clear next step and it can very easily be a leg up from kind of where they sit as a chief of staff today. You might lose the context, but you gain the responsibilities in either P &L management, managing a team, or just more outcome-focused work related to the organization's core goals that a chief of staff doesn't always get to own outright.

30:21100%, right? It's a role that influences all, owns nothing at the same time. That's where I was struggling a little bit in the Americas and where we started to talk about my development plan because it's like, look, I've been influenced all day, but at some point I do want to own something. And going into this next chapter, it was helpful to sit there and say like, okay, I'm going to own strategy and business planning. And that gives me a little bit of a taste of that. Strategy is still really ambiguous, right? Like it's not penal ownership. It's not a, I own product operations and bringing product to market.

30:52I don't own necessarily like true product as a category GM or commercial channel. And so I think that's where being able to spend some time in the current space allows me to sit there and go, okay, what do I truly want for my career next? And I think I've just been in the headspace that I'm on a new learning path and the amount that my brain has expanded in the past six months alone, in a way, I just love learning and love girling. And as much painful as it is, I feel like a teenage boy going through puberty and I'm six foot all of a sudden. But it's hard to replace that because I don't know if you learn that much outside of these types of roles.

31:33And it is a very unique opportunity to be able to hold both seats simultaneously. You may recognize actually that other thing sounds great on paper and managing a team has certainly a lot of pros, but there's also things that are maybe not as conducive to the goals that I have set for myself career-wise or in my personal life today. And there's more merit to staying in the chief of staff position longer and exploring unknown territory, but exploring what comes from that. Yeah. And I think it's fascinating too. A lot of chief of staffs, right? Two years in, two years out. And there's a lot of companies that do a great job of being like, this is our filler program.

32:09It's designed for high potential leaders. And I respect that a lot. I had a conversation with my principal where I was like, you're too consistent for two year in, two-year-out type of chief of staff to begin with. And that's just one person's opinion. But working with her, I'm like, she's someone that needs someone more consistently to see out her vision. And so I think in reality, I was really sitting there going, I'm going to take the three years and we touch base every six months in general, every three months in terms of my development. But we're constantly having that pulse check on what's next.

32:39And I don't think I've had a clear vision. And so I owe that back. Danielle, you're one of a few people out there, I'm sure, that has been able to follow their principal into a new org and rebuild an operating cadence, now build out a new team of your own, what are some of the final learnings you can part with a chief of staff that may end up in the same shoes or at least in a company under like massive transformation, which often can feel the same way? The best thing I did was connect with other chief of staffs because you have to kind of be like, is this as crazy as I think it is? That has been a lifesaver.

33:10I think there's that. I think giving yourself as much grace, what I try to do is tell myself I might not have been able to get something right it's more important about how i show up the next day with the learning involved and then take time to reflect i think a lot of the success i've had in this last role is because i've sat there and been able to write thank you notes after a work trip to teammates that i've traveled with and tell them how i was thinking and being vulnerable but also reflecting on my past time and i think if you take time to do that it allows you to take a pause and to be grateful in some capacity because it's not going to be forever in a transition or a transformation.

33:46Hopefully, it should just be momentarily in time. Danielle, I love how reflective you've been on the podcast, but clearly throughout your career. It's great inspiration, and I'm very thankful for the time today. Thank you so much, guys. It's been fun. Thanks again to Danielle for joining us today. Two things I'm taking away from this episode. First is your reputation won't carry you into a new team. You need to lead with listening, go to their office and earn it all over again. Second, you know that leadership team meeting is working when the team starts bringing the agenda to you versus you having to hunt them down.

34:18If you want to connect with Chiefs of Staff been through the moments like this, join the Chief of Staff Network or a group of thousands of verified Chiefs of Staff across 25 cities with in-person events like Chief of Staff Connect in New York and London, programs like Launchpad and the Chief of AI Fellowship, and a membership built for operators doing this job every day. You can find us at chiefofstaff.network. Thanks again for listening to the Chief of Staff podcast. We'll see you next episode.