Brand Bravery in EdTech - John Jorgenson

0:00Hey, welcome to the CMO Whisper Show. I'm your host, Steve Olensky. Part marketing practitioner, part ad agency veteran, part journalist. I was a writer for Forbes for 10 years. I've had so many insightful conversations over the years with business leaders, to athletes, to celebrities, to, of course, CMOs. The only difference now is instead of sharing those insights through written form, I'm doing it this way. My guest this week is John Jorgensen, CMO at Cambium Learning Group. John spent his first seven years at Cambium leading marketing for two of its brands, where he helped grow Learning A to Z into its largest division.

0:40Now, as Enterprise CMO, he works alongside Cambium's executive team to shape strategy, creativity, and culture. But what sets John apart is his vision, not just to advance education, but to empower his colleagues to do their very best work. From scaling brands to guiding Enterprise vision, John's blend of marketing expertise and people-first leadership makes him a compelling voice in ed tech. John Zorgensen, welcome to the CMO Whisperer Show. Oh, thanks, Steve. Thanks for that delightful introduction. It's great to be here. You are very welcome, my friend. I am very much looking forward to this conversation.

1:17I want to jump right in about the growing scale and impact of EdTech and relationship building. So EdTech has kind of gone from nice to have to really mission critical in K-12, right? So from your seat as CMO, have you seen the role of EdTech evolve in scale and impact over the past few years? Yeah, no, I mean, it's a great question. I think that EdTech certainly didn't start with the pandemic. EdTech had been growing rapidly for years leading up to it. But when the pandemic happened, you know, suddenly we had an entire nation and entire world that was needing to figure out how to keep learning going, even when kids and teachers weren't able to come to school.

1:59So there was just a flood of ed tech products that were being utilized, being developed, and educators were just trying to continue, keep learning going. And for a lot of them, it was all new for them. So ed tech really exploded during the pandemic. As we have come out of the pandemic, there's almost a pendulum swing in the other direction saying, you know, when when we had to figure things out to do learning virtually, we were just trying everything that we could possibly try. And now we're at a point where we need to we need to limit that. We need to simplify our classrooms. We need to simplify our district administration offices.

2:40And so we have to focus on the partners that that, first of all, are actually work and work against the challenges that are most important to us, but also partners that we can trust. And so there's this in the last few years in particular, EdTech has continued to grow, but grow in a more consolidated sort of way where educators are looking for fewer partners, fewer platforms, trying to simplify their classrooms, because otherwise it's just become too much to manage, too difficult to manage. So it's continued to grow, continued to be an increased need for EdTech, but has sort of begun to evolve coming out of the pandemic.

3:20Are you sensing, what's the word? And now it's amazing, by the way, we're still saying coming out of pandemic. It was five years ago. And we're still feeling it, right? That's right. But are you sensing, is there reluctance? And is that reluctance based on, well, only this type of district has reluctance or this type of person? Or is there that reluctance to admit and to acknowledge the world has forever changed? I don't think so. I think that technology is just such it's so ubiquitous in our lives and it's become such even ubiquitous in classrooms. So it doesn't mean that there isn't a need for direct human contact and teaching and instruction that is always going to be needed and is still needed as much as ever.

4:10But how technology can help that teacher manage a classroom, have better insight into each student to really understand not just if they get an answer right or wrong, but why they're getting it right, why they're getting it wrong. More personalized learning paths. There's so much that is possible through technology, again, that make both efficiencies and learning that can be different. that it's really being embraced everywhere, certainly more so than others in terms of innovation and things like AI and machine learning. Those are things that are just continuing to explode and have a much bigger impact on how teachers are thinking about running their classrooms, making sure that they're able to reach each student.

4:54So I don't think, even though there's more of an appetite in some places than others for kind of cutting edge innovation, I think technology as part of the classroom as part of a school district, that's not something that is going in the other direction at all. Despite the desire for simplification, for trying to kind of button up partnerships and things like that to have fewer partners, it's not changing the appetite. Yeah, exactly. It's interesting. You said something, I might be paraphrasing, but I love it. You said relationships are central to solving problems in education. Yeah, that's right.

5:29I love that. Elaborate on that. Yeah, yeah. So I think that when technology, when EdTech started, the boom of the internet and a bunch of EdTech companies started to pop up, a couple of some campaign companies sort of came up as the internet was coming to life. There was invariably with as with all technology, there was concern that, oh, is that is this going to replace teachers? Is this is there a belief that technology will be all that we will need? I think it's as we what's interesting is as the technology continues to get more advanced and smarter and more capable, I don't see any change in the need for for human contact, for human teachers that are really seeing the student and making sure that they are giving them everything they need.

6:16And they're not just assuming that that technology can replace them. So I think that's something that is, to me, getting even more important, you know, making sure that we've got seasoned professional teachers that really understand how technology can be used and are using it the best that they can to help them do what they're doing. But it's just that. It's kind of a it's an accelerant for what they're doing. It's not something to replace them. That said, there are all sorts of things that they are looking to technology to take off of their place so that they can focus more on that one to one interaction with students.

6:50It's definitely a kind of a very interesting dynamic, right? And my daughter is a teacher. And I've talked to her about having that balance, if you will, of using technology, AI, but also maintain that human touch. Yeah, yeah. I think we're all wrestling with it. We're wrestling with it in the business world to say, you know, what makes sense? And you've got info security concerns.

7:20output. And I think that as AI gets better, there will be more things that do fall into that category of, yes, AI can really help us with this thing. It doesn't mean it's going to be a panacea that helps us solve every problem and replaces every job. But I think it is something that is evolving so rapidly that it's kind of difficult to even keep up with. And so education is just... Education sits within our world, right? And so education is dealing with that same, you know, what do we do next? What's happening? How's this changing? How can it help me just like we are as business professionals and just as consumers?

7:55The education sector is not exactly known for stopping on a dime, right? And moving at warp speed. So in a sector that's, you know, known as moving slowly, how do you balance that rapid scale of innovation, especially in the AI age, with those real world day-to-day needs that schools and districts need? That's right. Okay. So great question. And absolutely, education is not at the absolute cutting edge of innovation, but is innovating. I think the thing that is becoming increasingly important, and it's something that you can see reflected in headlines and the ongoing testing of American students to see how they're doing against the rest of the world, how they're doing historically, there continue to be challenges.

8:40And so you look at these kind of key areas of literacy, of math, of science. These are foundational pieces of K-12 education, which are necessary, good indicators for how kids are going to do kind of continuing on in K-12 education, but then as they go on to college and to careers. And so there is a, I think as we're looking at technology playing an even more, a deeper role and a wider role in K-12 education, I think that there's also at the same time more of a focus on those key areas. So what are like those existential generational challenges that K-12 education continues to deal with? Literacy proficiency, math proficiency, science proficiency.

9:26These are things that are ongoing generational problems. So there is an even greater emphasis on how can we take this technology and this innovation and focus it on these big challenges that we have, as opposed to just going off in all these different directions. I think a lot of the companies that came to life during the pandemic and coming out of the pandemic, the ones that are falling away are the ones that don't really have a great solution or play a part in a solution against those big challenges. They might be something that's really engaging, fun for students, or goes into something that's a real kind of niche sort of part of education.

10:04But the ones that are really thriving and are scaling are the ones that are focused very intentionally on those big educational challenges. Okay. So a lot of my audience are CMOs and marketing leaders and business leaders, and I'm going to give you the stage and they're listening to this and I'm going to ask a question on behalf of them. I think, John, this all sounds great. What can you do to help me when I go to hire the right people knowing that they're going to be, and we talked about this off air, the durable skills, right? I need help. I need help to know that when I'm hiring people, they, they, yes, they have the book smarts, but these other skills they're not getting.

10:42What would you say to a group of CMOs and business leaders? Yeah. It's a good question. You know, I think it's so tempting to make hiring decisions as you're building a team and you're making hiring decisions. It's easy to think, oh, I need to go out and find this resume and that resume and that experience and that education. And certainly those are all important things, right? You have to have people that have been there, done that, that have a background that is going to be what's needed. But, you know, I think increasingly, and this is something that I'm seeing a lot with my organization and with people in my network, there's much more of an emphasis on other skills.

11:19You know, so how can you make sure you're finding not just qualified people, well-educated people, experienced people, but the right people for your team? It comes down to culture. It's no different than we were also talking off air about football for a few minutes. And you think about how culture is so important in building an organization, building a team. I think it's the same thing with business and with marketing teams. You have to find people that really believe in the things that you're trying to do and are excited to be there and be a part of it and help you develop it. So you look at qualities like, is this person, do they have natural curiosity?

11:58Do they have a positive kind of team focused, put my ego off to the side while I try to figure out just how I can help evolve this team and to advance this purpose through what I'm doing? It's looking for those kinds of people. And a lot of that kind of comes down to gut in some ways, but it's also just asking the right questions to better understand, is this the right person for this team? And I think that's always been important, of course. But I think especially now, you know, we're in a digital age like no other. We at Cambium, we're a remote first company where we all work remotely. So that ability to have those skills to connect with people that you're not spending physical time with all the time, that requires a different set of skills.

12:40And so I think it's being really discerning, you know, that there's that old adage of, you know, hire slow, fire fast. You know, you have to be really intentional about the people you're bringing on board, make sure they're the right fit. And if they're not, even if they've got a great resume and great experience and great education, you know, be willing to to move off of of that person if it's not going to be what your team needs. Exactly. Exactly. You used I think you used a term in the past. I don't know. I won't give you credit for coining it, but brand bravery. Right. And if you did coin it, God love you.

13:15You should trademark. But but I love that term, but it can mean a lot of different things. And I want to hear what it means for you. Yeah, I certainly did not coin that phrase. I don't know where I heard it. But in terms of brand bravery, I think this is more of an organizational idea where I think it's tempting to look at opportunities and say, you know, could this product or idea or service or hire, like, could it help us grow in the short term? And, you know, sometimes the answer to that is absolutely yes, it could. But that doesn't mean it's the right decision. You know, I think the brand bravery comes where you're willing to say no to those things or you're willing to push back on ideas that aren't in alignment with what your brand is here to deliver.

14:03And, you know, the easier said than done, right, especially in difficult times where growth is not something to take for granted and you're looking for all possible ways that your organization can be of value to the markets you're serving or potentially new markets. I think it's really tempting to say, oh, well, people are asking for this, so let's give it to them. Well, that isn't always the best decision for your brand. I think the longer term value that your brand can deliver is dependent on you being true to what that brand stands for, why it exists, why people would be devastated if it wasn't there anymore.

14:40And being brave enough to say no, being brave to stick to this is what we're all about. Now, the kind of magic in that is also not becoming complacent and saying or stubborn or rigid and being willing to do new things. So the way that we think about this at Ambium is we have a purpose. The purpose is what guides the entire organization, all of the businesses that make it up. And that purpose is intentionally lofty and also very wide. So the purpose is to help all teachers and students to feel seen, valued and supported. So all decisions we make at a product level, at a hiring level, they are all designed to support that purpose.

15:20Now, we have to remain committed to that purpose. We have to be very brave to not stray from it. But how we get there, how we deliver on that purpose, we have to be willing to question and change all of that if that's what's required. So to me, the brand bravery is about being brave enough to remain focused on the purpose that you are here to deliver. but also being brave to change everything else and not become so rigid to say, well, we don't do it that way or we're not that kind of company. We've never done that before. Being willing to change everything other than your purpose. I think so the bravery kind of goes in both directions, brave enough to stick with and brave enough to venture away from.

16:01I would imagine you're the type of leader that says to their team, come at me with all your ideas, but be prepared to explain how it fits into the overall purpose. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I think that that's at the Cambium at the parent level and also within the businesses. Each of the businesses have their own purposes and their own, you know, mission for how they're going to get there, their how for how they're going to deliver on that why. But it always has to be you always have to be mindful of the purpose itself and be willing to look at the purpose in the case of Cambium to say, you know, seeing and valuing and supporting teachers and students that also applies to us.

16:37That applies to how we work together and how we treat each other. And so that that how I think is really important. I get I get frustrated and I'm guessing you might as well, where a lot of companies and education is as much in this category as any other. Where the why the why of, you know, helping students and helping teachers, they think that that's everything and that's all that they need. And that's going to be what what really motivates people and gives them direction. But if you don't have an answer to the question of, OK, that's great. But how are you going to do that? How are you going to do that in a way that is effective, differentiated?

17:11And if you don't have clarity around that, it's going to be really difficult to then have that through line go to all of your businesses and teams to make sure that they're constantly thinking to themselves, all right, before we make this decision or make this investment, is it going to help that purpose be stronger or is it going in the other direction? And so that filter is kind of a built in that we're constantly reminding folks of. Yeah. So we all every company goes through the ebbs and flows, right? Good quarter, bad quarter, whatever. But you still have to stay loyal, if you will, to that promise, right?

17:42To your customers, which in your case are educators and students as a CMO. Right. You have to how do you stay in that? Hold on. I got it. I got to tighten my bell a little bit, but I can't sacrifice the purpose. How do you do that? Yeah, I mean, it's it's it can be challenging, right? Like, I think it's difficult to make decisions in the moment that especially if you're dealing with kind of short term challenges. But I think a lot of it comes down to to trust and trust in the leaders that you have, that you're all rowing in the same direction, that you all understand kind of how we're approaching this and being a purpose driven organization.

18:20and trusting that even though there are short-term challenges, that in the long term, this is the right thing. And I think one of the things that I really believe in and I talk a lot about is a belief in abundance. And I know that sounds like a bit of a new age kind of idea, but I think the idea is that if we are doing the right things against the challenges that we feel are the right challenges for us to be focused on, in our case, it's those generational challenges that I mentioned. I trust that if we stay focused on those things, that we will continue to be of value, continue to find a way to grow as an organization as a result of staying focused on that purpose.

18:58So it's something that, and I can say that I believe in the abundance and I have a faith in it, not just because I believe in it, but because that's exactly how Cambium has grown 20 plus years is staying focused. I mean, there's so many things that we say no to and that we don't pursue because they just aren't in alignment with the purpose. And they're not something that we feel that we can deliver better than anybody else. And so by staying focused on that, I think we're able to kind of weather the short-term difficulties. I mean, this has been a tough year. It's been tough coming out of the pandemic where funding has become more challenged and certainly a lot of uncertainty around the world around us and what it's going to mean for education and education funding.

19:43So, you know, we're having to navigate all of that. But again, we're looking for new ways of delivering on a fixed purpose. One of the things I want to go back to, as I said something in the beginning when I was bringing you on about your vision is not just to advance education, which we've clearly touched on, and we will more, but you also, you have this responsibility to empower your colleagues to do their best work. What does that look like in practical application? Yeah, well, not to talk too much about purpose, but I think it starts there. It's to say, look, We believe this purpose applies to us.

20:12And so I want everyone in our organization to feel seen, valued and supported. And that only happens when you trust people to do what you've hired them to do and have constructive conversations, which can be heated at times if there's disagreement about how we get there. I think the other part of it, though, is, you know, so I'll just tell you a quick story. So a couple of years, three or four years ago, I had been going to this regular annual investor conference. And every time I would go, I would look up at the registration list and say, oh, are there other CMOs that are going to be there? I need just to get to know each other.

20:46And over the course of doing that, I got to know the CMOs of all of the of scale organizations in the ed tech space. And we got to know each other personally and created kind of a bit of a network. But then we decided, you know what, these educational challenges that we're all dealing with, none of us, even the biggest, most scaled businesses in our space are going to be able to solve these problems by ourselves. And so we need to start thinking differently. We need to start thinking about us as a collective. How can we do things together and start collaborating together, even as as competitors?

21:22How can we start thinking about what we can do together that we can't do individually? And to me, the only way to start that kind of really grand, ambitious kind of idea is to start talking to each other and get to know each other and build trust with each other. I ended up creating a CMO collective of EdTech CMOs, which is now 20 plus CMOs and marketing leaders. We meet every single month. And we just had a meeting yesterday, actually, to talk through something. But we're in regular contact with each other, not to talk about how we compete with each other or, you know, creating collaborative products together or anything quite like that.

22:03It's more about just how can we think about the bigger goal, which which really is, yes, we're businesses. We're trying to grow. We're trying to do good work. But ultimately, we're trying to have an impact against those educational challenges. So are there ways we can start thinking about that together? We're just getting started with that. It's a very slow process because it's complicated. But I think that kind of thinking is going to be what finally makes an impact on these challenges is if we start thinking about how can we do some things together that otherwise we've been trying to just outcompete each other and kind of emerge as the winner from.

22:40And I think that's going to be not just in the education space, but education is a great example because we all have the same purpose at the end of the day. It's to help students and teachers and to get better results for them and better opportunities for them. And so to me, that's that's one way that I'm trying to contribute to that, not just with my direct colleagues, but I think of all of them as colleagues in kind of a bigger sense. Yeah. And I'll say it for you. Kudos to you for starting that because it is so important, especially when we're talking about education. But you're right. It does permeate into other industries.

23:12Like, for example, I would love to see CMOs of health care do the same thing. Right. And put their patients best interest front and center. So kudos to you for doing that. Oh, thank you. Yeah. And I agree. I think it extends to lots of industries. Education, I think, is a real central one just because we all have, you know, we all went to school. We all have kids that go to school. We all live in communities where we're dependent on those kids learning what they need to learn so that we can continue to grow as a society. So, you know, health care is a great, a great call out as a as sort of a comp to that.

23:43Yeah. What are some of your off the top of your head, some leadership lessons you think have stayed with you over the years, either from mentors or even mistakes you've made? What are some lessons you want to share? Yeah, I think one mistake I've made multiple times and I'm still learning it. I still because I'm, you know, I'm passionate and I'm trying to have an impact. You know, sometimes I have just needed to slow down, not slow down and to go slower, but slow down to just bring more people along. So I think that, you know, yes, I'm hired to do a job. I'm expected to be kind of a decision maker in a lot of ways.

24:17But how I go about that decision making is changing over time. And I'm not to a point where it's becoming kind of, you know, every decision is made by committee, but it certainly is taking more time to get feedback, especially before a project kicks off. I really learned that at one company where I was hired to reinvigorate a brand and bring it to market and reimagine it. And it was a brand with great legacy and great history. And the people that were there were really passionate, smart people, but really didn't know how to go about doing that. And it could have been easy for me to just jump in and say, OK, well, I've done this.

24:56Don't worry, I'll handle it. I'll bring branding folks to the table. We'll get this work done. Well, I really ended up spending the first several months just going and spending time with the team and better understanding their perspective on who is this business and why are you so passionate about it and why do you think it's a special place? And just by doing that kind of active listening and just, again, it goes back to the curiosity I mentioned before. I was just curious about their perspective. That then made, once we took all of that and added it to other discovery we did and actually got to the creative side of things, it just made all of that flow because they were already a part of it.