Leadership Without Assholes Allowed — Shelley Zalis

0:00Hey, welcome to the CMO Whisper Show. I'm your host, Steve Olensky. Part marketing practitioner, part ad agency veteran, part journalist. I was a writer for Forbes for 10 years. I've had so many insightful conversations over the years with business leaders, to athletes, to celebrities, to, of course, CMOs. The only difference now is instead of sharing those insights through written form, I'm doing it this way. My guest this week is Shelly Zalas, CEO and co-founder of The Female Quotient, a true trailblazer known as the chief troublemaker. She always made her mark as an entrepreneur, global advocate for women in the workplace, and a three-time movement maker.

0:43Interesting. She pioneered online research, co-founded the hashtag SeeHer initiative, and built the female quotient home to the world's largest community of women in business. With accolades like the Matrix Award and recognition as one of LinkedIn's top 20 most influential voices, Shelly's impact is undeniable. Shelly, my newfound friend, welcome to the show. I'm so happy to be here with you, Steve. I already liked your intro and the fact that you're going to hear barking and babies in the background. It's all good. I can't. It's real life. It's real life. And that's one of the many things you and I have in common.

1:23We don't put fronts on for anybody. embrace it i i actually love it and for me to have my little grandchild one of my three living with me for a year as they renovate a house is like it came with a blog who i've learned to love and i love it yeah that's okay i i got it i the chief troublemaker i have to i have to admit i would have gone after that title myself would you beat me to it um you gotta earn it though and you gotta be it you can't just say it you gotta no no no know actions and words i got it right but i'm just curious where did that come from who named you that um i think i gave it to myself um i break every rule that makes no sense and create new ones um so i'm a good troublemaker i think um and i'm a future it's a troublemaker that creates the next new but i think it was maybe when i was on the top 25 list um of ceos in in market research I was the only woman top 25 in market research.

2:25And maybe Bob Lederer did an article on me. And he said, I have to quote it because it was really good. This is in 2000, it's a really long time ago, so I can't really remember. But he basically insinuated that I create good trouble. And I think that's where it might have come from. I love that. It's such a great, provocative, and you own it. It gives you permission to be. You know, that's why I really don't like generic titles like SVP and EVP and project manager. What does that mean? It doesn't say anything about you. You're one of many of those. But there's one chief troublemaker. And so I gave myself permission to break the rules and make just it and create new ones.

3:06And that's all based on lived experience. Years ago, you're going to love this title. I just remembered this. I was at a real small company. And they're like, call yourself whatever you want. And I came up with chief creative provocateur. Love. I like cheap provocateur. Right. Because it gives you permission to be a creative provocateur, a media provocateur, a podcast provocateur. Everything. Everything. Okay. So how did, how did break you? I think there's a lingerie line named that, by the way, I'm just saying. Say it again? I think there's a lingerie line called provocateur. Is there? Huh. Okay.

3:40You're on trend. I'm on trend. I was ahead of my time. Right. So walk us through, you know, about how breaking the rules and challenging status quo, you found OTX and then female quotient. Like how did those stars align? Well, I mean, nothing I've ever done has been linear or in a textbook or done before. So I am a first in many ways. I had an idea. I was in market research, traditional market research, telephone interviews, wall intercepts, you know, that kind of thing. It was a little ahead of online becoming the new norm. We were on 14-4 modems at the time, but I did have the idea to migrate research from offline to online in a day and age where truly very few people, early adopters were online.

4:27And I was told at the company I was at that it was too early, too ahead of its time. We have to wait for it to become more universal, more representative, all that kind of stuff. And I was on a panel with Larry Mock, the chief research officer of Procter & Gamble at the time. And my bosses, men, men, men, men, men, were on the front row. And I was whispering to Larry and I come off the stage and they said, hey, what did you talk to Larry about? And I just asked him, when is the right time to come and talk to Procter & Gamble about migrating research from offline to online? Because you all told me there's a right time.

5:02I just want to know when that right time is. And he said, next week. I said, great. We're going to come in and talk to you about it. And my bosses said, great, Paul will go, Peter will go, and Ringo will go. And I said, well, what about Shelly? It was my idea, and I'm going to go. And if I'm not going, I'm going to cancel the meeting, and you can all wait for the right time. And so, of course, that was my moment where I realized, why am I always waiting for permission to be told what I can and when I can do something? And of course, I left and I started my company called Online Testing Exchange, OTX.

5:34And that was that. And that was when I realized I'd rather be in charge. and make my own decisions and not be told I'm, it's not the right time. I'm not the right person. It's not going to work, you know? And I kind of thought to myself, but why? They've never done that before. Someone has to be the first. Someone has to break a pattern, create a new one and start. And it's going to be hard and it's going to be scary, but I'm going to do it. And as a result of that, I am the mother of online research. I was the first in the world and created a pretty significant company. And that is when I was on the top 25 list of being the CEO of a market research company, but the only woman, which led to why I started the female quotient after I sold my company a couple of times, I realized it was time for me to get back the generosity, but I wish I had my whole career, which was called friends and business, women supporting women.

6:30And I started I'll pause, but that's how one thing led to the next. And now it's not hyperbole to say, at least I don't think so, the female quotient is a global movement, right? Go ahead. You know, we are the largest global community of women in business, over 7 million plus plus organically by the day. Power women across 30 industries, 100 countries. But more importantly, it started with creating spaces, safe spaces for women to support other women, to be seen, to be heard, to hand the mic over to them. Now it is a space for conscious leaders. It's called the FQ Lounge, where it's the power of collaboration.

7:14And we went from truly a moment to a movement, but that movement has become a new momentum, a momentum for change. and it vibrates on a whole other level of vibration where the power of collaboration makes a difference. I coined the phrase power of the pack. A woman alone has power, collectively we have impact, but it's also a company alone has power, collectively we have impact. You can have a big idea, but you can't create transformative change alone. You've got to go together. And when you go together, you do go further and faster, but you also go now. You don't have to wait and watch for everyone else to jump onto the bandwagon.

7:54You bring the pack with you and boom, change happens. Yeah. And I can imagine people hearing this going, yeah, that's easy for you to say. It's not easy because you did it. But it is as simple as that as well. I don't know if I'm speaking on both sides of my mouth there, but you just did it. You didn't sit there and let's have a meeting about the meeting, you know, and all these other things. You just did it. It wasn't easy. You know, when you're apart, you know, I say you got to be the first, the second, the third. The first is the innovator. You make the mistakes and you have to build an ecosystem.

8:25You got to persuade people that this idea that has never existed before, because most people are comfortable with status quo because they know what they know. But looking for what's possible is scary for a lot of people. The second is a copycat. They copy what you've done, but they don't know what's under the hood. And the third is a sweep where they're riding on that beautiful white horse and they sweep. You know, it's already an ecosystem. They get the funding and they don't have to make the mistakes that you make. And so I always said I have to be the first, second and third because no one's going to, you know, beat me at my own game.

8:56And so I'm always 10 years ahead of a trend. So we stay ahead. But it wasn't easy. You know, coming in with I wasn't in there was no D.E.N.I. I was not in the D.E.N.I. space or in H.R. I'm not in the business of women. I was in the business of equality, which no one ever heard of before. and I made that shit up and got people to buy into it. But it was not simple. For even women coming to a girls' lounge, because it started as the girls' lounge, a lot of women would say, we're not girls, we're women. I said, have you ever heard a man object to being a boy in the boys' club? Like, be a girl's girl, be a girlfriend, go girl.

9:36Like, a ladies' lounge sounds like a bathroom. A women's lounge, so boring. Girls' lounge, you can break some rules. You can have some fun. We could have a good time and make a difference. And so that wasn't that simple. It was an idea and then it just kind of took off. It's a journey. I think my point was that you, again, back to actions and words. Yes. Right. So what are some, okay, sorry. I wasn't turning back and also I wasn't looking for funding. I made a very significant commitment it to myself that I was going to fund it myself. If I had to wait for people to buy in, I wouldn't be where I am today.

10:19That's the mic drop. That's the mic drop. You just mentioned DEI. I'm going to get to that in a second. But before I do, I want to stay on the topic of women and leadership, right? How do women bring that unique perspective of leadership right now? And why is it crucial right now? You know, we talk a lot about the empathetic CEO, the human CEO. Okay. That sounds really good, but what does that really mean? And when you think about it's not male, female, it's masculine, feminine, because plenty of men have the feminine, plenty of women have the masculine, right? So it's not just women, but it is about the feminine qualities of leadership today, which we have often called the soft skills.

11:02I actually, if they're the critical essential skills of leadership today, empathy, compassion, collaboration, collaboration, collaboration, listening, learning, growing, all of those qualities, in my opinion, are the most important qualities of leadership today. And, you know, we talk about the hard skills, the masculine, linear, analytic, decisive, but it's the soft skills, which are the essential skills, which I think are the most important. They are the human empathetic skills translated. And that is the feminine. It is that part of the brain that we utilize, not hiding those qualities, but actually amplifying those qualities.

11:46I'd like to see a job description saying, We're looking for an empathetic, compassionate, passionate, collaborative leader that can deliver a great ROI. Give me that. An ROI, not just being, and it's a double ROI, return on investment and return on impact. And if we actually reinforce those in important ways, the world would change. We're doing it slowly but surely. But that, to me, is what, in general, women bring to the table. And that is the fabric. And so we know that women outperform men three to one, three times more if they are handed that baton because they create this culture that is based on lived experience.

12:31If you think about the rules, it's not that it was bad, but the rules of the workplace were written over 100 years ago by men for men because women weren't in the workplace. We're primary caregivers. So a lot of the rules of the world were just not written based on what we need today, which is caregivers to rise to the top in the workplace. And yet we're losing our best leaders to caregiving. I'm just thinking, you know, I'm completely agreeing everything you're saying. And I just hope this is going to sound hyperbolic. I don't mean it that way. But I hope we're alive to see what you're talking about.

13:02I really do. Well, if we wait and watch, we won't be. Of course, the economic forum says it'll take over 134 years to close the gender gap. and they sit around the table at the World Economic Forum talking about it. No one's ever questioned that. I mean, 134 years. It's exactly what he said. Not only will you not be here, your children won't be here, your grandchildren won't be here, your great-grandchildren won't be here. What are we waiting for? That's pathetic. We'll only get 10 years. Made the impossible possible. We created a vaccine for a deadly disease in one year, making the impossible possible.

13:37We have the data. We have what we need to know. There is nothing holding us back. It is the only global goal that a Fortune 500 CEO can actually achieve in the lifetime of their leadership by creating a culture, a business environment that is welcoming to all, providing opportunity for everyone to thrive. It is the easiest thing in the world to do if we have intentionality, consciousness. It's just about choice, priority, and intentionality. make a decision that that's what you want to do and you can do it about i don't know maybe 15 years ago i wrote this article it was very off the cuff and it was something like the title was like these are the seven most dangerous words in history and the seven words are something like that's the way it's always been done this screams to that and that's the truth and you know because it's what i told you change is scary and also if you make a mistake you get dinged so people are afraid they have this fear of doing something wrong.

14:38But by following status quo, you know it's been done that way. So you can at least perpetuate that. And that's why things don't change. And the crazy thing is if you actually look at the workforce and the workplace, nothing has changed in the workplace significantly, substantially, visibly until COVID. COVID happens. Boom. All of a sudden, business had to change. Leadership had to evolve. Culture had to evolve. Workplace where we work had to evolve. It wasn't a conversation. It wasn't something that we sat around with time to think about. And overnight, the world changed. Business changed. And by the way, it was okay.

15:23And a lot of readings came from that. It forced us to change. If we thought about it rationally, cognitively, we would have been still thinking about today, how are we going to adapt in COVID? It wasn't a one-weekend moment. You can live through anything for a week, two weeks, a month, not two years, radically changed and shift business as we knew it to now business as we know today. And now how we're picking up the best things that happened and going back to office. We're not going back to work. We're going back to office. And what are the implications and how do we make that happened. The more we rationalize and justify, the less that happens.

16:03But boom, boom, boom, boom. If you follow your heart, and that's why I always follow my heart, it moves you in the direction you have to move. And if the rules of the workplace were written by primary care, by the lowest common denominator, or by the collective minority, it would work for the current majority. Yeah. Yeah, it is fascinating. It's almost like the world's in two different buckets, pre-COVID, post-COVID. And we have responsibility and accountability around that. And do you just go back to what it was, status quo, or do you create the new possible? And that's what we need to be doing.

16:40And that's why we're now three days in office. You know, maybe it's three days in office and two days out, you know. We're still relying on the Zoom screen, but what would we have done without that? And maybe some meetings can be replaced by Zoom, but not everything should. We need to go back to the tangible of in-person and face-to-face. And, you know, that's the water cooler moments that we're missing if we're not back in office. Yeah. I want to go back to DEI for a second. You know, the DEI policies are evolving. That's a massive understatement. But I want to get your thoughts on how are businesses adapting to these ever-evolving policies?

17:19You know, listen, I think if people really understand what this, we're global, so we work around the world, but I actually think it's an opportunity for CEOs to look inward and say what really happened with DE &I inside of our companies. because it cannot be a quota. It really does need to be about providing opportunity so that we can hire the best to ensure that we have representation and reflection for the audiences that we serve, for the customers that are buying, for the fans that are engaging, for the society that we serve, for growth and for innovation. And so if you actually look at what the EEOC says, they said, We need equal opportunity for hiring the best.

18:08So no one is saying eliminate women, eliminate diversity. We are inferring that that's fear factor again. That is where any company that is just diversity washing everything, you know, not just on the outside, but truly on the inside is going to become Polaroid or Kodak one day because they're not going to be creating the products and services and delivering on it a way that their audience requires. The world is diverse and inclusive. And so if we don't think about that, we will not be relevant tomorrow and in four years from now. And that is not hyperbole at all. No. So I think that you are seeing companies that are standing up.

18:53Diversity and inclusion has to live within the fabric and DNA of a company's existence, which means it has to be a CEO imperative, business imperative, growth imperative, innovation imperative, and not a quota. We need the best talent inside of our companies to ensure that we are creating the products and services that the world needs. And so if you think about it that way, companies might have paused for a second because it did create pause and reflection, but the companies that are doing it successfully are also being honest with themselves to say, did we go a little too far and hire people that might not be the right ones in the right areas serving, you know, our businesses in the best capacity.

19:39And they are also understanding that it has to be part of the strategy of business, period, exclamation point, heart, heart, heart. That's, I'll throw a couple more hearts at the end. By the way, who was the other country we just heard from? What's your dog's name? Rufus. Rufus. What a great name. And he sounds like a big dog. Yeah.

20:13Rufus. Rufus. Come to Nottie. You're getting this in real time, everyone. This is awesome. Yeah. Come to high school. Come here. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Come here. oh my god there he is wait wait uh labradoodle he's a sheep doodle okay my daughter and son-in-laws and grandson's doggy now he's my dog he cuddles me he is adorable come come look at this guy come here closer come to puppy come here he's really okay you're gonna have to when i when i when i publish this episode chelsea you're gonna have include a picture with your picture so everyone can see rufus because he is amazing oh my god he's so adorable and obviously he's very protective so in a dog's body there you go are human like he's he's so adorable and he's so sweet oh he comes cuddles me in my bed every morning looking for me and i travel a lot so when i'm not there he stands by my door waiting for me.

21:21Oh my God, that's hilarious. Okay. I want to go to, not that I wouldn't want to talk Rufus the rest of the time, purpose-driven marketing. You know, it's gaining momentum, yada, yada, yada. Can you speak to how businesses that align with social responsibility and CNRI? Like how does that all tie together, purpose-driven marketing? Well, listen, I mean, the truth is consumers are not dumb. Like they're really smart. 85 % of purchase decisions, by the way, are made by women. And if you understand your values and your purpose, that comes through. And so even the word marketing, I mean, it's like marketing at, you have to create content that people want to pull.

22:01And pull is purpose-driven brands and brands that stand true to their values consistently and authentically. Something you just said, And people are going to think I put you up to it because it's something I've said forever when it comes to consumers. They are so much smarter than we all give them credit for. I mean, and to me, they're not consumers. They're people. You know, they consume your brand, your content, whatever. But they're people. They're humans. And they can see through bullshit. They can. And they realize that company XYZ has a product, a service or something to sell them. They get that.

22:42don't insult their intelligence they know you're in business to make business and make money i get it they but why it just blows my mind anyway and that's why it's like doing good and doing well you can do both exactly i just don't why that it's such a mark richard on that mark richard chief red officer procter and gamble he talks about it all the time doing good and doing well so we're coming up and i want to have some fun at the end i do this thing called the random five where I ask each guest five random personal questions, which you're going to get to in a second. But I want to give you the floor, right, and say what can other leaders learn from your approach to building and nurturing and building the biggest female quotient and global movement?

23:27And what are some things other leaders can learn? Number one, anything is possible if you want it. So, you know, don't just say, oh, it's not possible. You can if you want to do it. So anything is possible if you want it. It just requires being a conscious leader, prioritization and choice. The other is, I think it really is about opportunity and visibility and rewriting the rules so that everyone can thrive. And I'm working on something called the Rose Bowl rule. Golden rule, do unto others as you'd want done to yourself. But what I might want done for me might not be what you want done for you.

24:06The platinum rule then came, do unto others as they want done to themselves. But that's still about the individual. The rose gold rule is do unto others as the collective to reflect the collective. And that is understanding everyone in your company. So I'm a primary caregiver. Someone else might have accessibility issues. Someone else might have, you might be part of a minority group that doesn't feel seen and heard. So reflect what your collective needs, and then you will create the rules that will work for everyone. But as a Fortune 500 CEO writing the rules, if I'm not a primary caregiver, I might not understand what a primary caregiver needs.

24:51Or if I'm a guy that has never had bias or been perceived in a way that didn't feel comfortable, they wouldn't understand how you so listen to what your collective means it's the collective minority because if it does work for the collective minority it's gonna work it's gonna be really easy for the majority i mean they're just gonna coast yeah it's it's you know what you're saying in a nutshell correct me if i'm wrong is there's no such thing as one size fits all no so you know create a culture that you know allows everyone to pull and everyone's difference is be their greatest strength and be valuable.

25:32I hire for passion, train for skill. So hire for kindness and train for skill. I don't care what you hire for, but a culture isn't top down or bottom up. It's all around. You need to have good people. Your organization's best asset is their people. So if you have good, kind people, unless you want to be a doctor, lawyer, or an accountant, you need a little more textbook skill. But if you hire good people, recruit for good, kind people, everyone will feel comfortable. If you have assholes and you keep assholes, I don't care how good a salesperson an asshole is, male or female, get rid of them. They're going to, what is it?

26:10One bad apple can spoil? A whole bunch. A whole bunch. And that's true. Get rid of that bad apple. We don't need them. Bye-bye. This is frightening because another one of my mantras in life is I have a very strict rule in my life. No assholes allowed. Yeah, exactly. And by the way, I'm not saying that those are men, men. I'm going to put women in that category too, because sometimes people say, oh, we need more women at the top. Well, more women at the top doesn't necessarily mean they're going to bring others up. If you, I don't care if you're a man or a woman, if you are in a position of power, use that power to create change.

26:44That's a conscious leader. Yep. Yep. Okay. You ready to have some fun? Not that we weren't having fun. I call them the random five. I pull them very randomly from this huge repository of questions. Here we go. So number one, what's a hobby or passion that most people wouldn't guess you have? Watching dumb television. You got to elaborate. Give us an example of dumb television. I wake up an hour early every morning. I get my coffee, my Danish, chocolate chip Danish, mushy, get into bed, and I watch, I mean, because I country hop, I sometimes watch Turkish TV. I might watch Spanish novellas, the drug lords, and I might watch Love is Blind.

27:25I don't know anything that doesn't make me think about work stuff. Just lighthearted. It's an escape. It's time for me. I got it. Number two, who do you turn to for inspiration or guidance when you're facing a tough decision? My pack. Completely unsurprising. You just touched on this. So you may, I didn't realize you're going to answer the first one this way, but what's your morning routine and how does it set the tone for your day? So I told you, I start with my coffee, my Danish, my TV show. So at least I get one episode in and I, I will get rid of, before I get my coffee, I will go through my phone and get rid of all of my junk stuff so that it's not overwhelming.