Turning Tech into Truth - Karen Kaukol

0:28Hey, welcome to the CMO Whisper Show. Tell me if I said that right. Chief Marketing Officer at Entrust. Karen brings decades of leadership across global payments, financial services, and information technology. At Entrust, she leads the company's worldwide marketing strategy and execution, driving brand growth, customer engagement, and innovation in a space where trust and security are paramount. Before Entrust, Karen was CMO at Grable Relocation. I hope I said that one right. She'll tell me that one, too. spearheading sales and amoyant, customer acquisition and retention, corporate rebranding, and digital transformation.

1:05She also spent 17 years at First Data, rising to senior vice president of global marketing. With an MBA from the University of Minnesota and a bachelor's in marketing and telecoms from Indiana, Karen has built her career on blending strategic vision with practical execution, always with an eye towards scaling brands and driving impact. Karen Halkel, welcome to the show. Did I say it right?

1:36You're welcome. It is my pleasure. I think we're going to have a great conversation. We got lots to talk about. So as I say, let's jump in. So, okay. We got to start. those two little letters, but that mean everything to everybody in AI, right? Now, AI is reshaping everything, including cybersecurity, from defense and offense. It's everywhere, right? But how do you talk about AI in a way that builds trust rather than fear, which we both know is very honest. It's a great question. It's unfolding real time, and it is something that in our space is both a problem and a solution. You know, AI has been a great accelerator of fraud with things like deep fakes and voice clones and digital document forgery.

2:25So I think our customers have been experiencing that for a while and seeing how much damage AI can done when it's not used for good. So for us, you know, the question is, how do we harness the power of AI to really accelerate our ability to detect fraud? And I think our customers get that and expect a certain level of compliance, transparency. You've got to think about data privacy. And are you keeping with the latest regulations worldwide because there's myriad of them? So I think that's a built-in layer for creating a sense of trust as well. But the transparency and trust piece also comes at the end user experience and them understanding what type of information you are collecting, how you're using it and how long you're keeping it.

3:14So it is a really important time to be really transparent about how you're leveraging the technology. I think we as consumers are also getting so familiar with it and beginning to understand just how useful it is in our personal life. I don't know about you, Steve, but I love the Google AI search engine results. And it really often does lead me to be able to research topics in an insane amount of time without ever going to the website at all to get the information they're referring to. So I think we're experiencing it on a personal level. We're seeing it when we travel. We're seeing it in so many facets of life.

3:51People are becoming used to it, but there is still skepticism that, you know, you've got to be protecting that customer's data. Yeah, it's a great point. I mean, listen, I use, I love the Google tool too. It's changing SEO and everything like that. But I use ChatGPT. I mean, my gosh, I ask what time should I go to bed? I mean, what should I have for dinner? Like, it's scary. It's, you know, it knows my voice. It knows my tone. It's scary. That's why, you know, the word fear. But then I think it's just more exacerbated in financial services, right? That I'm going to give an AI a faceless, nameless thing my most precious.

4:34Yeah, and we try not to market on fear of, you know, what could go wrong here. And obviously, certainly not with regard to our products. But I think you also have to look at it as some of these are some of your most trusted relationships in life. And I think based on different use cases, you're more willing to accept more information exchange and more detailed information exchange. I think about financial services. That's the keys to your financial kingdom, right? Your banking relationship. So over time, we've gotten to the point where I think early in financial services, consumers would expect more friction as time went on in the relationship.

5:19They didn't know you at first. It was relatively straightforward process to get into a new banking account. But as you wanted to do more and more things that required more assets, the bank was looking for more authentication and verification of who you are. Now, I think consumers are experiencing that onboarding stage where they're just opening the account with you. And that's where we really want to make sure we know you are who you say you are and you're the attached to the identity you're presenting. Yeah. And then once you're in the account, even, you know, you think about just a few years ago, we were all using usernames and passwords for the most part to get into your bank account.

5:55I don't know about you now, but any financial services account I have now, it's multiple levels of authentication to access that account, right? You're getting the prompt for the SMS passcode or the SMS passcode will be sent your way. You are entering your phone if you're on a mobile device with a fingerprint or facial recognition. So there are layers of security to make sure that the person transacting in your name is actually you. And I think most of us as consumers are, you know, initially that friction was a little odd and maybe unwelcome, but now I've really come to appreciate it and actually expect it as a standard in certain relationships.

6:34Not all, but certain relationships where the stakes are higher. As the CMO, right, of the company like this, and you mentioned the challenge of marketing this particular product, tool, service, however you want to call it, the challenge has got to be in big and scope what you're talking about. But I'm thinking part of this also has to be, correct me if I'm wrong, there has to be an education side to this. For sure. Yeah. We are really focused on education. are technologies. I once had a salesperson at our company say, you have to have seven PhDs to understand our product portfolio. I said, that's not what we want, right?

7:17And even though we're selling to IT folks, CISOs and CIOs, the buying group today, as you know, spans multiple functions. You can have up to 10, 14 people, and they all have different levels of knowledge. And mostly they know about what problem they're trying to solve for their business. So if you come into this, assuming they understand even their problem, the full scope of their problem, let alone how your technology can help, it's a big assumption. You really have to come in with a listening posture and asking a lot of questions and helping to explain terms in helping to explain products in terms that relate to the business objective they're trying to achieve.

8:02They're not trying to achieve a PKI installation. They're trying to secure their network so that you can log, their employees can log in securely from anywhere in the world, whether they're at home or on their mobile phone or in the office. And at the end of the day, it's all about growth. I mean, even though we're securing and we're enabling protection of that business, It's all in service of them growing their business. So you really have to take that lens and not be too in love with your own tech, your own features that you can't turn it around and really explain to them, here's how this is going to help you.

8:40Help you grow your business, help you remain compliant, help you love your customers and keep a relationship with them for a long, long time. So you mentioned you market to differing titles, for lack of a minute, right? But you also, it's a global company. Yeah. Right? So then you have all those very, very geographical, specific, highly localized. Right? So talk to us as a global CMO of going, I can't talk to this person the same way I talk to that person, even though they may be right across the street, theoretically, right? but they're totally different language, culture, everything. Yeah, there's so many considerations.

9:24I mean, the language, what's important, the visuals, the tone, the approach, even the techniques that work for influencing and educating different buyers. And I think about right now, like, you know, we're in a heavy, we serve customers who are typically in heavy duty regulated spaces. And our identity verification suite right now is something that is really on fire in Europe, where it's a heavily regulated environment. Customers have learned and have come to expect know your customer type of approaches and regulations. So they know they're going to be vetted more rigorously up front in starting a relationship.

10:05But you bring that over to the United States. Guess what? They don't care so much. Our customers want that level. they want fraud protection, but they also want to protect the customer experience and make it as seamless and smooth as possible. So if you introduce too much friction in the experience there, they're going to have problems with it. So whereas in Europe, we may be talking about just the know your customer validation process, being compliant, making sure you're squeezing out all the fraud you possibly can. In the US, we're talking about balancing that fraud with the customer experience to make sure it's all that they want it to be and is a positive first impression for their beginning of the relationship.

10:49It's fascinating, right? And it is kind of marketing one-on-one about know your audience, right? Not to state the obvious, but that's really what it comes down to. I like to keep things simple. Yeah. Right. It makes it all easier, but we know marketers, we tend to overcomplicate everything. Yeah. And we tend, It's really easy to not keep it simple, especially with technology, right? It's really easy to be talking to yourself, to get influenced by the engineers in your organization. And, you know, I have at various points in my career been told we need to be more technical. We need to be more technical in our messaging.

11:24And yet when we talk to customers, it's always like we have no idea what this means. Speak to us in terms we understand. And so I think you've really got to protect that side of your instinct and your expertise that says there's got to be a balance here. Yeah, I mean, and literally, it's as if you're reading my notes here, because the next thing I wanted to talk about was kind of turning tech speak to real talk, right? And simplifying that stuff, because I mean, you're talking things like cryptography, biometrics, identity platforms. There's a really, really, you could go way down many rabbit holes there and be really technical.

12:02But then how do you have your team and the marketing team turn tech speak into language that just resonates with everyday people like me? Yeah. Well, yeah. And we, of course, are selling to B2B buyers and so different levels of knowledge. You do have to kind of, there are different use cases in that buying process, right? So when you're talking to the IT folks, you are speaking to them about a little bit more of the nuts and bolts of the technology, how it works, whether some of the feature and capabilities are platform integrations, et cetera. If you're talking to the risk and fraud people, you're talking about more of what that balance between the customer experience and the ability to detect fraud is on the first day and every day of the life cycle.

12:50So and then if you're talking to procurement, of course, that's a completely different conversation, as we all know. But you really got to be just mindful, first of all, of who you're talking to. But even in IT, I've seen so many studies that say, you know, and particularly in cybersecurity, it's not unusual for customers to purchase products and not be able to implement them, not fully understand what they do and implement them. And what a shame, what a failing. And so for us, I think we really look at it and say, not only are we offering these really important solutions to help them protect their business, but we're also offering our expertise and our advice and our counsel.

13:34We've been in this space for 50 plus years. And there are a lot of companies, a lot of startups out there, very crowded space, very dynamic space. But we've had the benefit of seeing the arc of payments and identity and security through just this amazing transformational period. We have a broad perspective. And we know that not all shiny objects end up being shiny objects. There are some tried and true fundamentals that will always stand. And also that network environments, the customers we serve, their environments are very complex. They're not cookie cutter. So you really have to be thinking and partnering with your customer to understand what's your environment, what are you trying to do, what are you capable of taking on in a certain time period?

14:27And then what is the regulatory impact and implications? And every time there's a new reg, it's a whole frenzy of, my gosh, what does this mean? What does it mean? The reality is it's typically a multi-year process to get in compliance. and we have to help them really understand the impacts, how they want to adapt that for their environment and what the cost and the impact on their customer experience is gonna be. You said something just a few minutes ago and it reminded me, I was talking to a leader at a very big tech company. I won't say the company, but they came to learn that a large chunk of their customers were not using, they're only using like 40 or 50 percent of a given product's capability yeah and they realized it was their own fault because they they said they just said here here's the here's the uh you know the the how-to guide and like good luck yeah there was no support like wait a minute and if they didn't if the customer didn't raise their hand they didn't know and they go why aren't you using these features.

15:34What features are you talking about? Yeah. Yeah. Totally common. We've had that same experience. I think that really led to the advent of the customer experience type roles, right? Where they could monitor usage, help you understand how this can be better applied, what types of use cases for your business exist that you may not even realize, what capabilities can be turned on very quickly. Yeah. We see that all the time. And especially too, you know, these are complex products. We cannot assume our customers know all the ins and outs of how to manage and use them. So there is an ongoing need for communication, education, and just frankly, a lot of dialogue about what they need in our roadmap that we may not be considering.

16:26Yeah. And don't wait for them to ask questions. Yeah. Yeah. So here's that word again. Sounds so simple, but too many companies do that. Like, oh, you know, I'm not hearing from my customers. Everything must be great. Yeah. Yeah. I think the basics are undervalued oftentimes in marketing. It's easy to get carried away with whatever the latest cool thing is, but you got to make sure you're doing the fundamentals right. Do I have a solid vision for my brand? And do we have a clear and compelling value proposition? Are we solving a real problem that is timely and pressing for customers today? Are we doing it in a way that is affordable to them?

17:10I want to shift to redefining identity in a digital world. Identity has shifted from really being a static credential, if you will, to really that digital representation of who we are. But my first question is, how has that changed what you think about marketing and trust solutions? Well, you know, again, we've been through this arc over just in my time at a trust where when I came in, it was primarily still physical credentials, whether it's an identity to badge you into your employer, a physical passport or a physical payment card. And over time, we've stepped into it and different markets move at different paces.

17:51Right. Asia was digital far before the rest of us. Europe was digital before the U.S. really started to adopt. But what we're seeing is this evolution of physical into digital. It moves at different paces in different markets. And interestingly, you know, there are always people out there saying, oh, yeah, this is the death of physical credentials. That's it. Everyone's going all digital. Not so much. You know, I mean, we we talk about that and there are some consumers that will they tend to be on the younger side. But we also see a lot of our customers saying physical and digital both make sense, particularly with banks or some of these fintech companies that start out with a pure digital wallet.

18:35And then they come back to us and say, we actually would like a card. We'd like to have a payment card or an identity card. It gives us it's a visual representation of brand. It's in their wallet and there's value in that. But I think identity for me, now I look at it, I say it just needs to work. No matter where you are, how you're presenting yourself, it just needs to work. And I think increasingly that identity is going to be digital. It's going to be tied to something you are or know versus a physical card that you have. And that's where it's going. We're watching it in full real time and AI has been a huge accelerant of that process.

19:14I think the other thing that really accelerated it was the pandemic. You know, we just saw crazy, a crazy move from in-person everything to remote everything almost overnight, as you recall, I'm sure. And just the acceleration of commerce and engagement through digital platforms went through the roof. And we saw it in our product sales. Everybody suddenly had to become an expert in securing remote devices, laptops, mobiles, et cetera, remote interactions with their customers. So it's been a sea change. And I'd say in the last two years alone, just with AI, there's been more change than we've seen in 10 years.

19:59And in that 10 years before, the pace of change was quite fast. That's an understatement. Yeah. Yeah. I came into payments originally about 20 years ago. I thought this was a sleepy little business. I could not have been more wrong. What we've seen in payments, the way it's now converging into identity, and the way security is so critical in underpinning both, it's all just coming together. So we talked about, you know, Mark, you know, I think you said it or I read it somewhere, but you think marketers need to make identity solutions, quote, inclusive, intuitive, and human-centered. That's a mouthful, right?

20:39And I could also say those three things should apply to any brand. But in the context of identity solutions, inclusive, intuitive, and human-centered. Now, the human-centered part, I can see people going, well, what do you mean human-centered? We're talking AI. How could it be human-centered? Yeah. I think, well, there are some obvious ways, right? Like biometrics literally are just that. But I think what I think about in that regard is how much control you have over how much information you're sharing in what time and place, right? If you think about in days of old when you had to share a birth certificate or a driver's license, whatever, you're sharing information that maybe they need to see, maybe they don't.

21:24Maybe they just need one or two pieces of information. So having more control over what components of your identity are being shared is really big. I think understanding how it's being used, how long it's being held, building that trust with those citizens or customers is also really important. That's a big part of human centered for me is that I have the confidence you're not going to misuse my data. Yep, exactly. Exactly. Exactly. I want to, given your vast experience, I really want to pick your brain on some leadership questions. Sure. Give us a lesson you learned, a leadership lesson you learned earlier in your career and you wish you had learned early.

22:05I mean, a lesson you wish you had learned earlier in your career. I think it's to listen more than you talk. You know, to listen more than you talk, to really understand where people are coming from. It gives you, and especially as a marketer, it's important. It gives you the ability to synthesize not only information but perspective. And you need that to be a storyteller. And that's how I think about marketing fundamentally. I don't like to think of it as this hawkish selling shiny objects and just beating a drum. I like to think of it as a process of connection and education that actually can be helpful to people.

22:50If you have a marketer who can really synthesize what your need is and how a solution might be able to help that need, that is what a gift. What a gift. There are very few brands that do that for you that can really help you connect with exactly what you need at the right time. So that's probably the number one thing for me is it all starts with listening. When you think about the responsibility of the leader, and that's to me, one of them is building future leaders, right? Are there certain qualities you focus on, like when it comes to developing those on your team? Well, obviously, you want that baseline level of skill and intellect.

23:31But for me, more than anything, it's do they have the fire in the belly? Do they have the passion? And then how do we if they've got that, if they're hungry, how do you expose them to as many different facets of the business and marketing as possible to build a well rounded skill set? I think that is just critical. And I had mentors early in life that did it for me. I remember one job where I was way too young for all the responsibility they gave me, but I was developing their website. I had product packaging and trade shows and PR and sales enablement. And it's a lot, but early career folks can handle a lot.

24:13They're hungry for a lot. They have to be the opportunity, the opportunity to learn, to try to fail. And I think that's our duty as leaders is to give them those kinds of experiences. They grow quickly if you do. And if you don't, I think they stagnate and they leave. How do you feel about risk taking and do you, how do you create, because I ask this leaders, I ask leaders this all the time, how do you create that space for your team to take risk without that fear of failure? I think, yeah, it's a great question because we're so driven by metrics, right? Marketing has become so metrics and analytics oriented and it's easy to over rotate on, you know, how much pipeline did this deliver?

24:58How much did this lift our transaction value? You know, whatever the measure, what was the return on marketing spend for this? And it can lead you to not take risks and do a lot of things that are sure things that will deliver a return that, you know, you can say, hey, we got a good ROI, but you're never taking a big risk. And so I think, first of all, you have to create some space, you have to create some budget, and then encourage the kind of discussions and brainstorming to get people really focused on how could we think about this in a completely different way. And I also always think about there are a lot of campaigns and programs that we tend to feel like, oh, this is the most important thing in the world.

25:45The reality is it's a lot of content is, there's so much velocity of content. So many campaigns are what I think of as disposable in a lot of ways. The risk isn't that big to test different approaches, to test different language and see what works. And I think the learning that comes from that is huge. So for me, it's, just encouraging people to create the space, making sure they leave the budget to enable that if that's required. And just making it clear that failing is not a bad thing. Failing is a learning opportunity, and it makes you smarter for the future. I mean, I think about, I'm sure you're this way too, Steve, but throughout my career, I've learned as much from the failures as the successes, it all cumes to make you a better leader, a better thinker, a better strategist.

26:41And so that's what I hope to create that type of environment and encourage all of our team members to just adopt that mindset. Well, you were correct, even though we just met, but you know me now well enough. Absolutely. I mean, failure, I don't know what's the Einstein quote about someone who's Someone who's never failed has never tried anything new. You're not trying too hard. You're not trying hard enough, right? You have to get over that fear of being embarrassed or underperforming or not making a number. You'll never take a big swing if you don't take a risk. Correct. Correct. Okay. You've listened to, I think, my show before.

27:24You know how I end every episode with called The Random Five, where I just ask five random questions. Some are about personal, some about professional, but just to show your personal side, your personality. If you're game, the first question is, what was your very first job and what did it teach you that you still apply today? Babysitting. I worked summers growing up, I think from age 10 on, I somehow landed all summer long babysitting gigs. and it taught me accountability, empathy, responsibility in a big way. You know, you're sitting there with two kids and you're still pretty much a kid yourself.

28:10It forces you to get a little more mature, a little more wise and a little more perspective. But I think the responsibility of that well prepared me to move on to my next job at Burger King.

28:24Next question. Who has been the most influential mentor or role model in your life? Oh, gosh. It's hard to really pin one person there. I feel like from every relationship, there is a potential for mentoring and learning, whether the relationship is good or not good. But I've worked under some really amazing leaders. and I think about a couple in particular that come to mind. Our current CEO, Todd Wilkinson, who has led and trust through a transformation over 20 years, came from a much larger company, GE, as did I, coming from First Data. And I think what he helped me really round out was my perspective on the business and the technology as much as the marketing.