Adam Faze: How TikTok Reinvented the TV Pilot

22:31Talk to us then about how you spot talent. Because I remember we were at an A24 dinner in New York and you were talking about how you voraciously scroll late at night on TikTok. And occasionally you'll - Screen time is horrible. And tell me about what you're looking for and what matters to you when it comes to talent. I mean, this is the most fun part. I think when, again, when I talk to friends in traditional, they're like, oh my God, they almost feel like I've betrayed them that I don't work in traditional Hollywood anymore. And I think the truth is you don't get to take bets on talent in Hollywood anymore.

23:02It costs so much money to go make a show that you better be the biggest star because that is really what they're banking on for you to go watch something. Our stuff doesn't cost a lot of money. And so you can really take bets on the people that you like. And I do think there's this old Hollywood feeling of this person's going to be a star. You really do just have that gut feeling sometimes. And I will say the one change has been I definitely am still on my phone way too much. I'm scrolling way too much. And I'm always looking for like, who's doing something interesting, who has a new voice, who has a new perspective.

23:30But I am spending a lot more time in comedy clubs again. And I'm spending a lot more time just like asking for friends to introduce me to the people that they look up to. Because again, oftentimes these people are not creating content. They're not on these platforms. And all it takes is sort of the right format for them to become a huge star. That is so comparable to SNL with pulling people from Second City, from improv, Right. Or from stand-up, right? Bring them into your system that you understand. Exactly. And I do think, look, I hope we get to a place where Gymnasium can have showcases and we can have talent from around the world, be able to just know, hey, we're actually going to be in the room watching you guys on this day to take bets on you.

24:08But I think until then, it's going to be much more of a local New York City approach of the people that are around us, the people that are here. But we just launched a new show last week, for instance, called Roommate Court. That's basically small claims court for roommate conflict in their apartments. That's cute. I'm like a Judge Judy fan, and I always wanted to make a court TV show. And Damien on our team had this idea of like, well, why don't we just do a roommate court? Like, that's the right idea. So how are you sourcing the roommates for that? Craigslist. Craigslist. Yeah. It's always hard when you start a show.

24:35Dude, I can't believe Craigslist is still huge. Craigslist is still active. And people check it. I mean, that's what's the nuts thing. But I mean, when these shows come out, then there's an influx of DMs of people that want to come on the show. When we launch the shows, it's really hard to get those first few guests because they have no idea what this thing is and what they're signing up for. and so Craigslist does really help because we'll say like hey we'll pay you$100 to come on the show but we do need to have real conflict that we really will be settling on this show and it's interesting we had shot a version in LA with one talent and it was almost there it was a version that I think we saw the potential of the show but it wasn't all the way there yet came back to New York and met this comedian named Michael Abber who's just the most he's there's no other way to say it other than he's just the most insane character I've ever come across and he is the perfect embodiment of like a TV court judge to host one of these shows, especially when it's a lot of it's going to be improv.

25:24And you watch the pilot with him and you're like, this is a show. Like he's the right host for the show. And of course he's going to be a star. And so again, very similarly, like Michael, someone who has 2000 followers on Instagram, like he's been in the New York city, Brooklyn comedy scene for a while, but this is the first thing that he's like really putting his full weight behind. And I have no doubt in my mind that he's going to end up being a massive star as a result of the show. Is there anything that's important right when you're starting an account? Do you need a certain amount of videos on the account?

25:51No, no, no. I mean, that's the craziest part. Like it is. And I don't know how much longer the algorithm is going to stay like this, right? Like the way that TikTok works today and Instagram, which has actually been better lately, we launch shows on a completely fresh accounts with zero followers. And we don't even prime the account in any capacity. And we really do rely on the algorithms and maybe a few hashtags to really find the audience for these shows. And so like every Every time we launch a new account, it sort of feels like it's still going to work. And the most exciting part is seeing it on your phone at midnight, like, holy shit, just jump from 10 ,000 views to 20 ,000 views, like something's happening.

26:22And then you start to see those comments coming in and people being like, oh my God. And it's finding those right people. And you do sort of get addicted to that feeling of putting something out into the world and it coming back with saying, hey, this thing that you worked on and spent so much time on is actually a great idea. And in fact, we can't wait for the next episode. and so you know right now every show we launch is on a new account and we do it on TikTok on Instagram and on YouTube Shorts I think the one difference is that we're starting to do is like we do want Gymnasium to start being more of a hub and that's the one thing it hasn't been I think we've been like a really silent production partner on all these shows and I think as a fail safe for when the algorithm does change maybe when it doesn't work like this we do want to have an audience that loves gymnasium and our shows so that we can tell them about this brand new show that might be at odds with the feeling of that there's no crew behind this show right because like the second you put a brand on top of a show like that is common again and when we watch severance it's apple tv and there's like a network and there's a studio behind it but like or a24 like that's a24 is probably today the coolest studio by far and they are a business they have a great economic model.

27:35Like you look at Euphoria, super popular show, like that IP still makes a ton of money from makeup, from selling makeup, right? And so like, it's actually a really great, just classic business of like media and IP and how to monetize IP, but it has such a cool feel to it. I think that's probably like, that's so hard to do. And they do in talking to them, like they do have a lot of guardrails around how the brand shows up and like, they're really good at crafting a brand. So totally. I mean, I think the reality is like, I don't even know if you can craft that cool behind closed doors thing anymore.

28:08I think you'd be completely open about every step of the way. And I do think that like, when I think about the dream of gymnasium, it is thinking more about like 30 Rock as our location and headquarters where like, Hey, all these shows and all your favorite people are in one place and they're all working together. That's my dream. And I do think it's like a lot of that's going to have to be on camera and like in front of public eye. Sometimes I feel like I resonate with this story and I resonate with what you're doing because I have a sense of nostalgia for it and i got into the world of storytelling and uh you know because i was obsessed with that stuff you and i grew up in the same town like going to the blockbuster there oh my god the best that was the best yeah yeah i wish we had the candy aisle still by the way i don't think about that the more niche one which was like 2020 video i don't know if you also made hollywood video hollywood that's right yeah so we would go and like there was nothing better than picking up one of those vhs's and like watching it on the weekend and you'd see like Columbia Pictures, that logo in the beginning.

28:59And like, there's a prestige that I think I felt, I don't know if anyone cares about that or if that's like not even at all interesting in this modern world of entertainment. No. And by the way, one thing I'd add to that is like, what I think about is being in middle school and NBC Thursdays were the thing, right? And it would go from like The Office and Parks and Rec and 30 Rock, and then it would go into the late night shows. And it just felt like, oh my God, like comedies or NBC Thursdays. Like there was something about that. And you did feel like NBC was this place that was having the best comedy on TV at that point.

29:27And every network had a slogan it was like it's comedy it's nbc sundays on hbo but hbo was like it's not tv it's hbo yeah um but no i'm the same as you like i was a geek like i was obsessed with movies and tv shows my whole life i didn't come from a film family grew up born raised in la really right next to you and from a young age it was just truly obsessed and i remember like the day my parents got an iMac and that became our first video camera that we would just i would literally move this i back around the different rooms to use as a camera, then go edit an iMovie and put it on YouTube that thankfully is gone and no one can ever find these videos.

30:01But I think that that was the earliest version of, that was the first version of YouTube. That was one that was still like the viral video. It was like, oh, Charlie bit my fingers, the viral video. And that was way before anyone started using these platforms. It's like a place to make shows. It was not a serious place, but just where we were having fun. It's so interesting because I think our philosophy with the world of the creator economy. Maybe it's starting to change as it's maturing. But like, number one is people follow people, right? Like even with subway takes, there might be a lot of people who don't even know what the name of the show is.

30:35They don't even know what the name of the creator is. They're just like, oh, I love that show where that guy asked for takes on the subway, right? And like, I think that's, I think we've gone from like people follow people to people follow the idea or the format. And maybe we get into a world of like people follow the studio. but i think you know it'd be a great job back to like when vox started yeah that's like or even like i would say modern day examples like friday beers i think just a fucking amazing yeah but that's like their creators are the faces of friday beers and like when i think about friday beers i think about the amazing skits that they're doing but i also think like oh there is this amazing company behind them but like i'm just looking forward to watching the content that they're making yeah that's a good comp because i think like barstool would be the other company all but dave is like he's the person yes i mean if anything dave's bigger than he's bigger than Barstool.

31:18He is Barstool. And I think I don't want to go necessarily down that approach, but I do love the Bright Friday Beers model of like, hey, these are our talent. These are the people that we are co-signing that we think are the next big things. And they're going to go host these shows over here, but they're going to do a lot more stuff together as well. You mentioned showcases. Do you think physical events is important for that? Huge. Huge. And I do think community building in general is huge. I mean, you guys do a great job of this. And I think the place and culture that I'd like for us to find ourselves in is very much in the room with each other.

31:49I think the one thing about everyone that works at Gymnasium is we are terminally online, but we're also very outside and going out every night in New York and going to shows and friends with comedians, musicians, and everything else. I think that's very important to who we are as a brand. I'm also very excited about the idea of not only doing events, but our events also being content. I did grow up also largely with Comedy Central. Comedy Central Presents being their showcase where they can show off new comedian comedy talent was awesome. And like, I would love for us to start doing a monthly comedy show where like, not only is it hosted by our hosts, but like, it's a way for us to see if people resonate with these comedians that we're thinking about working with and bringing under our wing.

32:30Um, but like that would be a live event with a live audience, but then why couldn't that also just be content and then comes out on TikTok and Instagram and YouTube as well. Yeah. It could also just be an incredible indicator. Like you're saying of like what works, what people are resonating with. There could be a certain bit that continues to overperform from one comedian. And it's like, wait, I think there's something there. And that's where like, again, like Hollywood just can't keep up with that. I think the fun part would be like, oh, there is this bit that people love. Like, why don't we go shoot a pilot two days from now and try it to put it out five days from now.

32:56If it works great, if it doesn't, cool. We made a show last summer called Bodega Run that was like our version of making supermarket sweep, but like the brain rot version. And it was this, you know, we'd put a guest on with a 360-degree camera on their head, and we'd tell them to run into this bodega. And if they could find the three things that we told them to look for in 60 seconds, we'd We pay him 100 bucks. And it was the most chaotic show ever. And the first episode we posted, it gets like 40 million views between TikTok and YouTube. And then the next few episodes after that probably got like each around 250k views.

33:27And it sounds crazy to say that we pulled the plug after like 10 episodes. But for us, what that show proved was like it was a stage virality. If you have the right kind of person on this show, it will be huge. But like the format itself is not that interesting that people want to tune in every single time. So we pulled the plug. But the process of coming up with the idea, making the show, releasing it, it being viral, and then canceling it all happened in the span of four weeks, which is probably the amount of time it takes to like set a pitch meeting and all of it. Totally. And what did it cost you?

33:53Probably $3 ,500. $3 ,500 to test that idea. Yeah. So I think that's like, obviously like getting that many shots on goal is like inherently interesting. I want to talk about like why TikTok and where, because like you're posting this content across all platforms, right? But like even for me, I can even if you didn't show me any data, I would actually guess like YouTube shorts is your worst performing platform by far. Instagram is second and TikTok's one. And I don't know how to explain that to people, right? I don't know how to explain that I know that and that I know culturally each one of those platforms is so different and it represents a different space on the internet.

34:31And the way we use them is really different, right? Like I think about the way that I use TikTok, it's like me kind of being in bed and being like, I do want to be entertained right now. I'm bored and I want to fill this boredom with watching stuff. And it's both a very solo experience, but you're friends with all the strangers that you're also watching this stuff with on TikTok. I comment on TikTok videos all the time on videos that are not people that I know. And I'm engaging with other commenters that I do not know. But it does feel like this community of we're watching this thing together.

34:58I think on Instagram, it's like, I'm going on Instagram first to first check my DMs, see what my friends are up to, what's on the stories. And then sure, or maybe I'll get stuck and end up watching Reels content. I do think there is a part of my brain that sometimes I do want to watch Reels content. But Reels content feels very different than what is on TikTok. Same with shorts. TikTok weirdly to me reminds me of kind of what Twitter used to be. Twitter did used to be the cultural point of conversation of like, here's what is happening right now. Here's what everybody is talking about right now.

35:26And I think the amount of tweets that also would turn into articles two days later, like everybody's talking about this one thing. That is now what TikTok is. It does feel like, oh, someone with 100 followers can make one video that ends up getting seen 25 million times that every single famous person out there is now, you know, stitching to and making content around. People create more collectively and iteratively. And I do think that like what TikTok did change, and it was what YouTube did first, was like TikTok has created so many stars so quickly. And I don't know if we've ever been in a point in time where like every single day we're minting hundreds and hundreds of people that you do recognize.

35:59eyes. And I think the one weird thing is like, not all those people will then hold on to that fame and stick around as talent for the next 25 years. They might never make content again, but they are in this weird thing that we're like, we all collectively have watched them and know who they are. And so what does that mean for you? Yeah. I think there's a dilution of fame because of that, right? Like there is a, you talk about like the Hollywood star system. That was like a very clear cut version of fame. I do think it was really interesting by the star system that I was like, you know, TV actors used to be a diss.

36:29You wanted to be a movie actor. TV comes around and it's like, oh, you couldn't be a movie actor. Now you're a TV actor. And then all of a sudden the tables switched and TV became more important than movies. And every movie star wanted to be a TV star. And then what's really interesting is like, how long have we all heard like, oh, that's a TikToker or that's a YouTuber. And it was a diss by Hollywood. It's like, oh, it's cute that we're inviting them to a Hollywood meeting to like maybe talk about doing a TV show. Like you want to host a network television show. Like that's the big thing. And now that the tables are turning and the audience is actually on these platforms and not in traditional Hollywood, I think it's happening again where the traditional movie stars and most famous people that are on earth are all trying to figure out, like, how do I have a bigger digital presence?

37:07How should I be showing up on TikTok and YouTube? And how can I be hiring teams to, like, make me cooler on these platforms? Which is why, like, everyone has a podcast. Yes. Yeah. It's like, that's the lowest barrier to entry way of, like, let's just start with a podcast. Yeah. Yeah. And it gives source material for clips to show up. But I do think on that point too, like at this point, I feel like we've graduated from the term podcast. Like what you guys do is a talk show. It is seen as a talk show. More people are watching the video than I'm assuming that are listening to the audio. And I think that like there's this weird thing where we're still talking to all these things like and using the terms that were kind of given to us.

37:38But like Caller Daddy is reaching millions of more people than Jimmy Fallon is on a nightly basis. And like that's a late night show. Like can we just kind of give it the respect that it deserves and call it that? But is that, again, is that just us? You know what I'm saying? in terms of caring about the words. Yeah. Is that just us? Like sometimes I think, and obviously the audience can tell us how they feel or sometimes they have, like sometimes we talk about Hollywood at length and I see feedback from our audience being like - Who cares? Why do you guys think we care about this? I agree. I think it's generational.

38:07It's generational. We were talking with Anthpo, who's responsible for the Timothy Schell and they look alike contest. And we were saying, what did it feel like when it was on SNL? And they parodied it. They parodied it. And it was just like, yeah, I don't watch SNL. He's like, oh, yeah, you guys are old. So you guys watch us. That's cool that you guys care. Yeah. I was like, no, I do think that's part of it. I mean, I think it matters to me because I probably just still talk to so many people in traditional and like bothers me the way that they look at this space. But I think to your point, like the audience already has moved on.

38:34They are just watching these shows like it did used to be late night. Yeah. I don't think that they're arguing over the definition. No. It is their late night show. And so I think like I kind of look, try to look at it from more of like weirdly like an anthropological standpoint of like, OK, like I still see all of this as Hollywood. it. I just think it's a brand new industry that all of us are creating in the place of what did exist for a hundred years. Yeah. There's this moment where Netflix, which Netflix originated as an aggregator, right? So you look at like, same thing with like TikTok. It's like an aggregator of content that a ton of people make.

39:06But Netflix then started making their originals. And one of their first originals was House of Cards. And House of Cards won a Emmy. And Ted Sarandos quoted someone else. I don't remember who he quoted, but he just said, TV is TV, no matter which pipe brings it forward. And I think that is like the quote that matters at the end of the day. And like sitting here and debating over it is like interesting to me, but I don't think it's actually interesting to everyone else. I think everyone just accepts that quote. That it's like, yeah, it's all good. This is what we watch. And that's the thing. It's like, it has replaced that habit.

39:41Like I still am old enough and yeah, I'm old enough to remember coming home from school and like turning on TV. And like, for me, I was like a Nickelodeon kid and then I was an MTV kid. And like, I can tell you all the shows I came home and watched. And so for me, I think like, I do look at these platforms with that lens because like I grew up being someone who wanted to make movies and TV shows. But like, again, the goalpost did move for me because at this point, I just want to make things that are entertaining to the most amount of people possible. But I think it's like this inherent frustration with their economic model.

40:08And again, I don't know how many people that matters to. But it's fascinating to me to see, you know, a movie cost$160 million. Mind-like. Because at the end of it, the root of it is just capturing the attention of people. And so I think that's where it's like, there's this scrappiness and this alternative nature to like, hey, I can just hop in a cab and capture the attention of a ton of people. And I think what's also funny though, like to the point of like, who cares? Like, I can't tell you the amount of times I've gotten a phone call with someone saying like, well, what if we bought MTV? We can buy MTV and bring it back.

40:40Wouldn't that be crazy? And I'm like, I don't know how to tell you this, but like, I don't care about MTV. and I grew up watching it, let alone anyone that's younger than me. And like you can go build, quote unquote, the next MTV for way less money than it would take to try to revitalize this thing that truly nobody cares about. Yeah. The reality is people don't care about room raiders. No. Right. People care about the way you've interpreted room raiders and introduced it to a new audience. And I think like to the point, the people that care about room raiders, they just did nostalgia growing up with that.

41:06Totally. You know? And so like, again, like this idea that we need to bring the IP back of Cribs, like Caleb Simpson is Cribs. Like it doesn't even call it Cribs. it's reaching more people than they probably have ever watched Cribs but like yeah it is a modern day version of it but again that's more for like us to debate and talk about in terms of like a history standpoint so Caleb Simpson with like if you guys are unfamiliar what's how does he can I how much do you pay for rent how much do you pay for rent in New York City which is so interesting that like every show has an opening line right Jack Coyne track star if you name the artist you win five bucks and like that is the what you're looking for is like the opening line of the show to be like repeatable like that I will say though like one sometimes you don't though like sometimes the environment you're in is so insane that you don't need.

41:44But like Boy Room, we don't have an opening line anymore, but that's because the opening line is us showing like the most bizarre thing you've ever seen in your life. It's visual. Like there's this premise that we talk about when we talk about short form content of a visual and a verbal hook, right? So like the verbal hook is like what we're talking about here, something that catches you off guard. Hey, can I come to your apartment? Or how much money do you, how much do you pay for rent in New York City? It's like, typically people don't share that. So that's immediately interesting, right? Or there's a visual hook, like boy room.

42:12It opens with a messy room. And it is an audio. And she's like, what is that? Right. Yeah. So there's like visual and verbal hooks that can pull you in to the world. But Caleb and what that show is compared to Cribs is like, it's shot on iPhone, it's lo-fi, it's one dude going into a house. And like that gets even more interesting when it becomes a celebrity's house that he's in. It's like the lo-fi nature of it is interesting. And the reason why Room Raiders and Cribs is not interesting is because it's too produced. produced. So do you have any fears that you read in the next couple of years as too produced with your shows?

42:46Yes and no. Like I do think, look, like I'm excited for us to get to a place where we start experimenting more with like, how do we keep breaking the rules? Like I, it's funny, like everything that we did to go make these shows in the first place, people told us they would never work. We were like, you have to shoot an iPhone. You have to post three times a day on TikTok to get any, you know, sort of eyeballs. And now that we found that these things could work, the worst thing I could do is be like, well, these are the rules now and we can't break them. It's like, no, obviously let's just keep trying stuff all the time.

43:10And I think the way that we look at it is more like we're all storytellers. We're all filmmakers. And I think we want to find what's the best way to tell this story. And I think the reason that we shoot these shows the way we do is like we really do care about the way they look. It's important to us. It means something to us that we put this amount of time, attention to detail in making these shows. And so like I think to be honest, like it's more that it matters to us is the reason we're making it this way. and I think that like what we won't do is when we start experimenting with like let's say what does it look like for gymnasium to make a late night show like what we're not going to go do is make a 60 minute late night show and just make it look exactly the same as a tonight show it's like it's gonna be something brand new and we're gonna be trying it in a completely different way but you know we still might sit there and say like well we do care that we want to have some sort of writer's room we do want to have this be a channel like lift new voices up and have maybe this one part of late night that we really do like that we grew up watching my assumption that is that for gymnasium to be successful, you have to move into long form because long form is better for community building.

44:08It's better in terms of building a business. Do you agree with that? A hundred percent. Okay, part of the plan. I think like in my mind, it's like short form, create the IP, start building some talent that people recognize, then immediately long form. And then honestly after that, like the space that I'm most inspired by right now is live streaming. Like I think I'm more inspired by Kaisenat and Aisha Speed than I am about like anything else that's happening in entertainment. So I think the thing that's really fascinating about them is like here I don't watch Twitch. I also do not follow them on Instagram or TikTok.

44:35And yet my TikTok feed and my Twitter feed is entirely consumed by Azure Feed and Kaisenat. And it's being posted on accounts that they do not own, that they don't manage, that they don't even monetize. And it's being run by like clipping armies of 15 year olds who are obsessed with this talent. And really what that does is like it creates this talent that's larger than life. Like they're bigger than any one account. They're bigger than any one platform. And yet I am watching what they're up to. And so I think that like that approach and in this world where like, do followers even matter anymore?

45:01If you could just sort of be everywhere, that's a very new type of thinking. And like, again, I can even myself get stuck in thinking sometimes of like, well, on TikTok, we want your needs and have this many millions of followers. And it's like, I honestly don't really care as long as that like everything you're scrolling, you're seeing stuff that we touched or people that we work with. Like that's way more interesting to me wherever those accounts are coming from. And I still think that ends to the same result. It's kind of a new thing, but it's actually rooted in like sports highlights, right?

45:25Like if you think about like Kobe Bryant or LeBron James, like, or Michael Jordan, even back in that time, like he's not Michael Jordan unless he's clipped, unless his highlights are filmed and put everywhere. And like, I think if you follow that same trajectory of like photography or like what the camera has done to people, specifically in sports, I think, then you realize like, oh, they're doing a craft. And if that craft is filmed and if that craft is distributed by someone else, then a ton of people can see it and it gives it authority. And so I think if you keep pulling on that thread, you see what has happened in the world of clipping.

45:58And that's just what's exciting. I mean, it's also just an impressive feat. Like Speed's trip to China and Mongolia. Like I'm looking at this and I'm like, how did they do this? I can't wait to see your guys' breakdown of how they did that. And I think like I look at that and it is just as impressive as like any live production that's ever been on TV in the history of television. And like, yeah, this is being done by a small team of like probably less than 10 people. and it's reaching how many tens of millions of people around the world when all is said and done. And you look at how kids go up to him.

46:27I mean, he's basically a Beatle at this point. And so I don't know, that's what's really inspiring to me. And I get jealous because I look at that. So I'm like, that seems like a lot of fun. I'd love for us to be able to play in that space. So you have investors who have invested into gymnasium. What's their expectation? Like what happens in 10 years with gymnasium? Where does this go? Look, I think one is we're really lucky to have people who are just along for the ride. I think these people that invest in the beginning round, it wasn't like we pitched this cohesive vision of like, and this is exactly how much money we know we're going to be making two years from now.

46:58It really was this bet of like, hey, we think it's the wild, wild west. We've had some success making these shows. We think we're going to continue having success. And we're going to figure it out at some point. Somewhere, somewhere along the line, we're going to know what is that next version of a TV studio or a TV network. And I think, look, we're still figuring it out. We're two years in. We have some wins on the scoreboard, which is making these shows that really resonate with people. But I think we're still figuring out how big can this go? How big can we get? What are all the places and spaces that we can play in?

47:26And so we're lucky to have a lot of investors, like Jeremy Zimmer, who's the former CEO of UTA, but also Scott Belsky, who's now at A24, building out their AI and tech. And these are people that we call on to for advice and for questions, and a lot of times being like, we don't know what we're doing, and this thing came up, can you help us? but I think that in my mind what I'm just trying to figure out is like how do we have a stable business at the bottom of gymnasium so that we have this like evergreen slush fund to go spend on stuff that like we want to go make for ourselves to me that's making shows for brands yeah like the bodega run maybe it didn't work for you guys but we we on a recent episode we're like pitching concepts in our just like having fun pitching concepts for brands and like target could easily have a supermarket sweep 100 and so like you take bodega run as like a proof of concept and you go to walmart or target and you pitch this show and now 300 000 views an episode is a huge win my god for them for their account to be a digger on or like basically no and i and i also think what's funny is like hollywood is trying to have this conversation with brands at the same time right like every streamer even netflix like wants their shows to be branded because like yeah why not cut 10 million dollars off the cost of your budget but it is still a similar thing of like hey target pay us 10 million dollars we're gonna make supermarket sweep and we're gonna hope it's going to work on Netflix.

48:42And it's not going to cost us$10 million to make that show. And we can also do a limited order of episodes so you can see that it works before you invest any more money in making it. But I couldn't agree with you more. I really do see what that bottom revenue slush fund for us to go make shit with is working with brands and making them really fun shows. We're still going to treat those as our originals. We're still going to tell brands, hey, I know you want a logo in the first three seconds in a title sequence. That's not going to happen. And by the way, no, we're not going to say this line that's corny that no human being would ever say on earth.

49:13But that's because we want these things to be organically viral. We want people to love them. And as a result, even though it seems like we're fighting the brands when we say those things, we are fighting for them to have more fun on these places. What do you think the future of scripted content looks like? Because I believe, are all of your shows unscripted? All of our shows right now are unscripted. So unscripted, cheaper to make, you can make it much faster. do you think there's a future where you're making scripted content i think the entire history of tv is up for grabs right now genuinely i think we're watching a massive paradigm shift where like again the reason we keep talking to hollywood is like this has been how it's worked for so long and all of a sudden the gatekeepers and the old guards aren't really relevant to this conversation anymore and so of course there's a huge you know future for scripted like i'm inspired by you know horror creators who are making these like horror shorts on tiktok and instagram every week that are legitimately some of the scariest things I've ever seen.

50:07And I do think those guys are going to go make movies at some point. I think probably A24 is probably who they'll make them with. A24 is going and doing the Backrooms movie with a 17-year-old kid who started making this stuff on TikTok. And so I do think there's a place for all this stuff to meet in the middle. But with scripted, it's really interesting because there's like two different sides of it right now. There is like the stuff that's working on TikTok that is usually done by a creator or a team of young filmmakers who are like, we just want to go tell the story. We don't really care what the end result is.

50:32It's just like it's making us happy and it's getting eyeballs. On the other side, you have this brand new space of micro-dramas coming out of China, where you have a movie that is sort of like a Webtoons-adjacent comic novel, whatever you want to call it, that they turn into a 75 to 100 episode piece of content, where every episode is 90 seconds, where it's very addicting to watch because there's a huge cliffhanger at the end of each one. And you buy episodes five at a time in a pack for like 75 cents to a dollar. and micro dramas which the quality is very low right now like these scripts sort of seen like chat gpt written scripts they're making like 10 20 50 million dollars off of these micro dramas oh my gosh i had no idea you know i know about it oh but i did not know it was the average cost to make is anywhere from 100 to 250 000 per like 75 to 100 episodes and like the most successful ones are making 25 30 million dollars i did not know they were monetizing it to that scale and so that's the thing of like you know the point of oh like this space does feel like the startup world right now like everyone is trying different things everyone is iterating like what's possible and you have this one standstill industry it's like well this is the way that we make things well i think because you have the world of like what used to be pay-per-view which is still a thing in tv right pay-per-view was like a new economic model for tv micro dramas have opened up like pay per minute or paper yeah essentially paper like 90 seconds right paper minute and like there's a world in Hollywood of like dollar per minute in terms of like cost of production and like your dollar per minute is so low compared to a TV show.

52:03And then you go to like, you know, micro dramas and you go like, it's, it's higher, but their profit is off the charts because they're charging people for minutes and they recognize like attention and that cliffhanger is what's going to get someone to. And look, I think like a lot of these spaces always start with low quality and eventually become a space for everything else. Like don't forget a big part of where TV started is soap operas. Like there is an evolution now where TV is some of the highest quality programming coming out. Yeah. And a lot of it starts because of an economic model of advertising.

52:34Yes. Because soap operas is to sell soap. To sell soap. Yeah. I think what's really interesting to talk about though is I get this question a lot from older people that I talk to who might be potential investors or work in media companies. They're like, so why didn't Quibi work? It is fascinating When you then look at these micro-dramas. Contextualize Quibi if people don't know what Quibi is. So we went to pitch meetings for Quibi. Really? Yeah. So Jeffrey Katzenberg, one of the founders of DreamWorks, went and started a streaming service for short-form content. And he was seeing the same data that all of us saw, which is like, hey, young people like watching shorter content on the go.

53:07They might not have time to watch a half-hour Netflix episode, but maybe they could watch one episode of a 10-minute show. One of the things that was most shocking about how they built this company was they would brag about the cost per minute. They'd be like, hey, digital usually costs$5 ,000 a minute to go make. We're going to spend$100 ,000 to$200 ,000 a minute. We're going to spend HBO-level budgets on short-form content. And they built this paywalled, gate-kept platform where it only had these scripted shows that were massively premium, were the biggest stars of Hollywood, assuming that that still mattered to young people.

53:36And the interesting thing was it didn't work. It lasted, I think, like 100 days. They spent a billion dollars doing it. But the part that was most impressive was they had this big PR campaign after the fact where they said like, oh, well, the reason it didn't work is COVID. No one's on the go anymore. So no one's watching short from content. And that's why COVID didn't work. And it's like the same exact month that was happening, TikTok was the number one app in the app store and continued to be for years. So it wasn't that we were stuck at home. It was that like you ran out of content to watch on the platform.

54:04None of it was really particularly that good. And it was kept behind a paywall. So no one can even really see if they liked it in the first place. And what's really interesting that was like on the other hand you now have scripted content like working on short form and people are paying five times the cost of a monthly subscription to Quibi for like way worse of a script talent that you've never heard of or seen in your entire life and yet like that's a way bigger business so it's just fascinating when I knew it was doomed was we were in their office and they I said what's like the use case for a viewer they're like well if you're like in line for the bathroom you might watch like you get to watch this like Steven Spielberg short and I was like well if i'm in line for the bathroom i'm scrolling instagram so i'm good i don't need a new that space is occupied and i think like this happens a lot where it's like it's people that are making something that they themselves wouldn't watch you know and like i will be the first to say the reason we make shows for tiktok is like my tiktok screen time is insane i love tiktok i'm on it so much and like i want to make stuff that works on that platform because like that is what my tv is and so i do think like there is this weird disconnect where especially with brands where like they what their wants are and what they actually have experience with and what they actually watch are completely separate things and like those are yet the people that are trying to make the thing over here so if you're to green light a short form show what's the anatomy of like a good show or like you scroll tiktok a lot so which ones like catch you for me it's like something that i can watch one episode and be like give me a hundred of those right now like i could watch a hundred episodes of this thing and i could binge this thing and i feel like that with with Jack's Trackstar.

55:39100%. Before you know it, you've watched 30. I can watch 100 of those. Well, what's also genius about Trackstar is you're playing the game, too. You're playing the game, too. I think that's why you watch to the end. It's like, you want to see at what point would you get stumped. Interactive. That is interactive, even though it's not an interactive game show. It is. And so, like, for me, it is that, like, watchability. We're really tough critics of, like, watching our content and saying, like, at what point would we scroll watching this? Like, sure, like, there's that part where it's like, well, I would care because we really like our, you know, person hosting or whatever.

56:04But, like, no, we genuinely try to put that brain on it. Like if this just randomly came in my feed, like what would, what would I do? What's interesting is the first two episodes of boy room, we had this like TV show intro that was like, welcome to boy room, the show where we investigate boys rooms. Post the first episode on TikTok gets 150 views. We're like, okay, that's strange. Maybe it's just a fresh account, like something happened, whatever. Post the second episode on TikTok gets like 467 views. We're like, okay, this is weird. Usually we would have something by now. And so we look on the back end and it said like 99 % of our audience was dropping off in the first three seconds.

56:37We're like, oh, it's this annoying loud TV show intro that like maybe when you're scrolling in bed at four in the morning, like I am, like it's too loud and obnoxious and you're like, get this out of my face. And so we posted the third episode, just no intro, just getting into the show faster, but on the same account. And that one change was enough to get the account three million views in 24 hours and 40 ,000 followers overnight. And so I do think it is like sometimes that finicky of just figuring out like what is the best way to show up and how do I get people to like get into the social code.

57:03story of the show. You got it? Yeah, there's a great quote that we were recently told, and it was said by William Golding, and it's storytelling advice. It says, come in late, leave early. So drop people into the story late, so they're trying to put the pieces together. That's amazing. And then get out early. That's amazing. Leave us with a show you're watching on TikTok right now that could be yours, could be something else. Well, I have to plug our new show, Roommate Court, because it did just launch, and we need as many eyeballs on it. roommate court so this is this is the one that's tick tock disputing instagram youtube shorts okay it's the most ridiculous thing what's the most ridiculous claim that you guys have already well so the first episode that we just put out it's three roommates um it's it's the first roommate started dating the second roommate they broke up second roommate starts dating the third roommate now first roommate wants third roommate to move out of the apartment because they got so offended and second roommate says we only have three months left on the lease anyway so like why should we get out quickly.

57:59Why are they signing up for this? This feels insane. Why did anyone ever go on court TV? I don't know. I think people like being on camera for some reason. But I have to leave with that. That and probably do some research on Italian AI brain rot. I'm going to tell you right now, I'll never end up on that side of the algorithm. I don't know how to get there. Could you define brain rot? Because that was the Merriam-Webster word of the year for 2024. Which is crazy. I actually want to give them credit. That feels early. I would even say like This would be the year for brain rot as the word. I don't know.

58:28It's what my brain feels like right now. I just think it's just this culmination of we all spend so much time on the internet and it's every meme and every sound and everything you've ever seen just put into one thing and it just becomes like nothing at that point. It becomes like actual garbage. But it's also the funniest thing because we've seen everything step along the way. So no clear definition, but you know it when you see it. It's what's going through my head right now. okay well cool man yeah thank you thanks for having me thanks for coming man i'm excited i'm excited to watch roommate court i'm excited to see what you guys make next and i'm excited to see if one of these if like the premise of building ip on tiktok can find its way somewhere else i know and by the way like that's that's interesting to me yeah hasn't been answered yet and i think like i've even changed my approach from like i think when i used to when i pitched gymnasium the first time around i was like short from ip is the future and like this ip is going the most valuable people.

59:21I don't know if I believe that. I think that we're making shows. People see them as shows. They have an audience people like. I went to London in January for the first time in a while. And the amount of people I would just talk to are young people in pubs. And they'd say, what do you do? I'd say, hey, I make the show called Boy Room. They're like, you have no idea how big that show was here. And it's like, they're calling it a show. They're fans of that show. They want to see more of it. That's enough for me to say, we're onto something and let's just keep experimenting. I do think what you mentioned about Kareem with Subway takes is like we are really growing a lot of talent from scratch and i would hate to just like have them just never work with us again as a result of like us not wanting to be interested in their careers and i think again like even if we only get to work with them for a few years there's so much amazing stuff we get to make with each other by just saying like we know how to work with each other now we have everyone that you need here to go make the things you want to go make like can we just go do them here and so it's like part of it's the ip of it all part of it's the talent of it all.

1:00:17Part of it's like, if we can turn gymnasium into a hub and sort of a network, it does mean that like, we can just go make a bunch of crazy shows that we want to go make that will resonate with the audience that we have. So I don't really know which is the right answer, but I think we're trying all of them. I love that. Yeah. That's great, man. Well, dude, again, thanks so much for coming out. Thank you for having me. I'm sure we'll see you on the circuit. Yeah, I know. Well, I feel like I'm gonna see you in three weeks and we'll see you in three weeks. Yeah. I'm not scared already. I appreciate it.

1:00:44Yeah. Thank you.