An Unfiltered Conversation with Pokimane

27:38And then frankly, my twist on it was just who I was. There were not many female streamers, especially any that were like consistently coming out with YouTube videos or trying to do different things in videos or even have like more clickbaity titles or collaborate with other streamers. And so So I frankly, I really, really lucked out that I got into the industry at an early time where I was in a way like a unicorn just for being myself, just for being an early adopter of live streaming of League of Legends content, of streaming those things and then turning it into a video. And I just had to try like different concepts and see what hits and then keep doing that.

28:20So at this point, you're what? You're 18 and you're in Los Angeles. Like you've just moved from a small town. 21, something like that. Yeah. Okay. What was that like? Like, first off, why Los Angeles? And like, was it to get into entertainment? Was it like, okay, maybe post gaming? God, no. Why LA? LA is just where there were a lot of streamers and still are. So I actually moved down here because around that time, one of the things that helped me take a year off or decide to take a year off was that I started working with this management company, but it's like management agent. They were basically giving me deals for X amount of dollars a month.

28:56And the manager that I had was also managing some other talent. And he said, oh, we should all move to LA together and live together. Well, with the manager too? Wow. I know. In hindsight, you're like. Bizarre. A little bit. Yeah. That's like a parent's nightmare, I think. Like my daughter is moving to Los Angeles and moving in with all these people from the internet. And just kind of silly to look back on, but I lived in content creator houses for like four, five years, a long time. And I will say as chaotic and sometimes stressful as they were, they were also incredibly beneficial for my career.

29:40So that was kind of the arc that I went to and why I moved to L.A. creator house. That makes sense. Everybody's focused. So focused. And, you know, it's like if I'm not making content, someone else is. what are they doing? And then you're always thinking about it. And also collaborating. Cause the, like when I think about growing both on YouTube and on Twitch, like collaboration is going to be. Cross pollination. Yeah. One of the most important pieces. And then imagine living with a manager who's also always putting those ideas in your head. Sure. Yeah. You guys should do this. You should make a Facebook page.

30:08You should put this, you know? Yeah. Yeah. At that time, it, it also still feels like this today. To me, I feel creators are very similar to bands or musicians. And so there was an era where managers, and I still think this happens today, where they're trying to put together almost like super groups or figure out collabs. That makes sense and are engaging to a viewer. And everyone kind of operates in a different way, just like bands. Like some people write songs in certain ways. Some people write them by themselves. Someone's really good at drumming. Someone likes to sing. Different personalities.

30:41Do you remember the next kind of milestone? Because you said like making $10 ,000 was a big milestone. Was there another revenue milestone where you're like, oh shit, this is like a business. And then did you do another PowerPoint presentation for yourself of like, here's the next version of the Pokimane business model? I think, of course, my biggest like financial milestones when I made 10K a month, when I first saw six figures in my bank account, because to me, like the immigrant dream is always like a doctor's salary, which you imagine to be like a hundred K a year. When I was able to make like a hundred K, it just like baffled me.

31:20It really blew my mind. And I was like, oh, maybe there's really something here and I should just pursue it for as long as it's fun and makes sense for me. And then of course, just seven figure. Sure. I remember the thing is I never really liked to talk about financials. So I would just be celebrating with my mom over the phone. And that was really, really nice. Were they shocked by this? Like, were they like, oh, wow, I think this really worked. No, genuinely. I don't think my, I don't know if they just didn't believe me. I feel like it didn't process until two things. One, my mom is a school teacher.

31:59So until literally the students at her school started calling her Pokie's mom instead of her actual name, once that started happening, she was like, coming back from that exactly yeah they have to graduate yeah yeah but if generations are watching you then she's always going to be pokey's mom yeah that's kind of how it's been which is crazy and she's so cute she uses it as leverage she's like i'll tell pokey you said hi you do your homework and i'm like you use that leverage as much as you want what's the age group like Like second grade, third grade in elementary school. So like at that time, because you were mostly, you were gaming focused back then, which feels like that evolved over time, right?

32:43A little bit. Like it evolved to you being, you could do a lot of just chatting streams where you're just talking about yourself or vlogs where millions of people are interested in your day-to-day without you gaming, right? So how has the audience evolved since then? And how would you describe your audience? So interestingly enough, I think it's two parts. There's an evolution within streaming of the audience. I would say the two biggest booms were one, Fortnite. Fortnite was the first game to take streaming and gaming to a much more mainstream level. And honestly, I owe Fortnite so much. That was kind of my big break in a way.

33:28and I think after Fortnite, it was Among Us. Those were probably the two most mainstream games. And I look at the period of Among Us and the pandemic as frankly, the most mainstream live streaming has ever been. You think? Absolutely. And the reason why is because think about it. People were at home. They had more time than ever to be watching someone game for six hours, right? Even since the pandemic, I would say live streaming has died down quite a bit. And that's just because it's not as conducive to like the everyday lifestyle. It's very hard for people to consume six to eight hours of live streaming nowadays, especially, you know, we're back out, we're working, we're traveling, we're doing all these different things.

34:15And I think that's also why short form content is so wildly popular now. But over the years, and especially post pandemic, I would say the way the audience has evolved is just chatting is more popular than ever now because people can actually travel again. So during the pandemic, because we were indoors so much, it was just like huge gaming streams and collaborations. Now you can see someone stream themselves in Japan, like on a mountain on the other side of the world. And I think you've seen like a little bit of dying down in the interest in just gaming and more people just wanting to watch people talk and entertain in that way or walk around and interact with other human beings.

34:55For me personally, the evolution has just been like what I've been interested in. I've been gaming since I was really, really young. And although I think it will always be a huge passion of mine, I also am interested in so many other things. I want to vlog. I want to travel. I love fashion. I love reading. I love XYZ, XYZ things. And I've always just wanted to share my life and share who I am with others. So I've been trying very hard the last like two, three years to share in different ways, in ways that aren't just gaming. It's interesting you say that because I feel like gaming or streaming is more culturally relevant now, at least from my vantage point, because of Kyan Speed.

35:37But maybe it's the headline. I was going to ask why that is. And then the answer was probably going to lead into short form content. Yeah. Like how much. You're right. Weekly, how much live streaming content do you guys consume? None. But I see the clips. Right? And the headlines. Exactly. Yeah. So it's almost like it takes up less market share, but it is more widely known and understood. Yeah. Clips are making it more culturally relevant. Yes. It's more relevant and more mainstream, but much, much technically less popular than it was before. Do you remember when Drake came on Ninja's stream? Yes.

36:16That was the first culturally relevant moment. Fortnite. That felt like the first time that someone from traditional entertainment came into the Twitch world. And validated streaming in a way of like, but that too was a clip. It's not like we were all watching Drake playing with Ninja. There was people watching, but not for us. We saw that as a clip. Yeah, you saw a headline. You saw a short form clip from it. You saw XYZ other things that came from the stream. And that's actually one of the reasons why my business model has kind of changed a little bit. Whereas before I would stream six days a week, five days a week.

36:51And then at one point when I still had a contract with Twitch, I would stream four to four or five days a week, kind of longer hours. Nowadays, my business models, I stream twice a week. Wow. That's all. Mainly because one, as I said before, like the day-to-day audience has kind of diminished a little bit. And so I find myself wanting to touch base with people on so many other platforms. And that's really hard to do if you're streaming six days a week. and two, just kind of natural evolution and changes in interests, especially after streaming so much during the pandemic. Once I was able to go out, I was like, damn, I really want to go out.

37:34That's fair. That's totally fair. It's hard for me to say because part of me feels really ungrateful to be like, I don't feel like sitting in front of a computer for eight hours a day for another eight years. But instead I try to change it into how can I make the most out of the hours that I am I'm streaming and the most out of the hours that I am making content elsewhere and still feel like I'm connecting with the community and people out there that want to connect with me. The thing I'm jealous of when it comes to streamers, again, tell me if this is how you operate, but is that you get to, you stream for two days a week, but then a lot of your other content is based on, like you get to live, you get to be so available on the internet and have a ton of content out based on those two streams.

38:18I get what you mean. The stream is the production. I call it a very recyclable content. Yeah, totally. It's this cyclical thing of like you're streaming and then that turns into a ton of clips. Into a clip, into a YouTube video. But that's also how just like live shows work, whether it's a NFL game or Saturday Night Live. Like they do it once and then the clips carry it for the whole week. A little bit, yeah. And I agree that is a huge benefit to live streaming. But there's also so many cons. And as we were talking about right before, every time I come into a podcast, I'm like, literally ask me anything.

38:53Nothing is off the table. And if I don't like it, we'll just edit it out. That is something that is a privilege I do not have when it comes to streaming. And goddamn, are there many times throughout my career that I wish that I did? Yeah, let's talk about that. Because the two things I always see with you are like you're involved in a new business venture or you're involved in a controversy. It's some drama. based on something you said or something you showed or something or the other. And I have to both own up to the moments in which I don't word things the best, which absolutely occur. And I also have to admit that sometimes, I mean, one, I'm very reactive.

39:31I love reacting to things. But also sometimes I'm just like, I'm a little bit easy clickbait content. The amount of headlines I see about me that are completely false is kooky beans. but it's just a part of the business I've learned to accept. Do you, do you look at that as like all press is good press from like a marketing perspective? God, I wish I was that narcissistic. No, genuinely. I have tried to like brainwash myself into being like, this is fine. All press is good press. All press is good press. But at the end of the day, just like the kind of person that I am, as I said, the, the thing that made me a good creator is I love to interact with people.

40:07So when I see people interacting with me negatively, some part of me that can still hurt. I've learned to brush a lot of it off of my shoulders, but I still have a subconscious at the end of the day that I know is kind of also ingesting all the things that I'm reading. So I really have to moderate how much of that I take in. So you are streaming two days a week. You put out a lot of content across all the other platforms. What is the business of Pokimane right now? How would you break down the percentages of revenue across brand deals, Twitch subs? How does it all work? So I wish I could come to you guys with a more substantial breakdown.

40:53I would feel like the last, or I'd say the last two years, I've been kind of transitioning from having streaming be 100 % my bread and butter to let me dabble here and there. I'm still a little bit in the dabbling and solidifying and doing a lot of collabs nowadays. I would say brand deals are the large majority of my income. Whereas two years ago, the large majority of my income was my exclusivity contract with Twitch and then brand deals. And then probably subscriptions and donations have been the smallest part of my income for at least four or five years. something that not a lot of people know is like my lifetime income I think donations are two percent of my lifetime income and back in the day there were a lot of not very nice things said about people donating to me or how that might be perceived so years ago I actually capped my donations at like five dollars per which I have not seen many streamers do but nowadays it's just mainly brand deals.

41:58And I launched a podcast which were in the works of monetizing. So that will be a nice stream of income in the next quarter or two, hopefully. And also my business ventures. And that might not always be passive income. But for example, if I sell my equity or if someday we do some sort of payouts for any of the business ventures that I'm in, that's a nice little chunk of income too. Can you talk a little bit about that, about the business ventures? Because right before we were recording, you were talking about the management company and how that is a successful case study for you. So interesting.

42:39Basically, I've been a part of a few business ventures. I would say maybe Offline TV, the YouTube channel is kind of a business venture because I have some equity there. But obviously we haven't sold the channel or sold the business. So you don't really see any return from that. And then I co-founded a management company called RTS and they also co-owned a fighting game convention called Evo. And I really love the people who work there. I really love everything we've done there. But a few months ago, I actually ended up wanting to work with a manager that used to be my agent. So I wanted to hire her back onto the team.

43:16And because of that, I parted ways with RTS And I was able to sell all of the, I guess, like sweat equity that I got from co-founding the company and all the work that I'd done with them and everything that was vested up until then. And to actually see a pretty substantial payout from something that you co-founded was mind boggling to me because you always hear people talk about that, but rarely does it ever come into fruition and work out positively. So I'm very, very proud of that. and then I also co-founded mine. Who did you sell the shares to? Just back to the company. Oh back to the company.

43:52Oh cool. Because I was like it's I felt it might be kind of disingenuous if I wanted to hire a manager to help me frankly like step out of the gaming space whereas they manage a lot of people mainly within the gaming space. And once I started working with that manager I was like well I figure it just kind of makes more sense if we part ways and I was just able to sell my equity back to them. Why co-found a management company, even outside of the potential return? Why do you think it was necessary? Because I would be concerned for us that if we started a management company, there's that risk of like, hey, you're a creator, I'm a creator, but I'm not being managed well and I'm going to talk about it.

44:29And then you're like, oh no, I own part of this. It feels like a risk. I think that's been a huge learning lesson in general. The liability that comes along with co-founding anything when you're a public-facing figure. There's huge marketing bonuses because people know you, they want to know what you're doing or what you're involved in, but my God, are there massive liabilities, which we can really get into. For the management company in particular, the reason I wanted to co-found that, on one hand, there were other people in the industry that were equally excited about the idea of creating a management company that was specific to gaming creators.

45:10And then on the second hand, I felt like it could be a legacy project in some sort where I can kind of pass on all of the knowledge that I've gained from doing what I do. Because frankly, I was one of the first streamers to go more mainstream to figure out what kind of team and how can like, how can you build out a team that really benefits a streamer in particular. And I felt like I'd gained so much knowledge over the years and I can only speak to so many creators one-on-one and help them problem solve. I wanted to be able to do it on a larger scale. The amount of times throughout my career that I was like, God, I wish there was someone that I could ask this very particular niche question to.

45:55How do I handle the PR? How do I moderate my channel in a way that no one else is doing? All of these like really niche particular particular questions. I'm like, what am I going to do? Keep all this information to myself. I thought about releasing a guide. I thought about all these things and I've made a lot of videos about streaming tips, but I wanted something more direct. And I thought that that management company could be it. That's cool. That makes sense. What are some of the, you just mentioned like there's liabilities in launching companies. And I think, I think we live in the world of, you know, risk and liabilities.

46:28Cause when you're a public facing figure, you know, a business person is going to come to you and go, you know, hey, I think this is a really good idea for you to do. Oh my God, yeah. Or you are going to approach someone because you can't do it. You need help. The thing that we need as creators is operators. We need people to actually run businesses that we want to start. And the dream that we all have as entrepreneurs is, yeah, let's utilize our leverage as public figures to build a business that then has an accelerated path because we can market this business and we can feel passionate about it.

47:03And then eventually we'll sell our shares and we'll become really rich. Like that is the cleanest version of that ideal outcome. Instead of the American dream, that's like the content creator dream that you're constantly being sold. And it's also like a George Clooney tequila dream, right? Yes, 100%. Like it's been happening. It's been happening. It's been happening with actors. Didn't he gift his friends like all a million dollars or something? What? The one thing though that - I like to be a friend. It worked really well for him. I think the one thing that we all don't talk about enough is Shaq.

47:30Because Shaq owns a bunch of boring businesses. Oh, I see. He owns like Papa John's and like some parking lots. You don't hear about the failures too much unless it's wildly controversial and interesting. You don't hear about the failures that much, but you also don't hear about boring businesses. Yeah. Because boring businesses are really great ways to make money. And I feel like we're, as creators, are not pitched like, hey, yeah, you probably have excess capital because you don't have that much overhead, right? You know, like you can make your content with pretty minimal expense. So maybe buy a parking lot.

48:00Yeah. You know what I mean? Or buy real estate in the form of a building. Sure. Yeah. It's sexier to like go up against Gatorade. Yeah, yeah. Exactly. Launch prom. Good luck. Or launch feastables. I've learned so many things about that world that I kind of wish I didn't. But I wanted to tag on to what you were saying that also from the creator perspective, at some point, you kind of get tired of being the product. And you're like, this is not really scalable. I can't make a hundred YouTube videos a week if I want to make more money. I can't do a hundred live streams a week if I want to make more money.

48:37Like there's only so many hours in the day that I have. Um, so scaling a content creator business can be very, very difficult in that regard. So instead you think instead of me being the product, let me make a product because a product we can make more of and we can scale that. Unfortunately, it's not that easy. Actually, the math of it is easy. The people is what I find to be challenging. Who do you trust? Because when you put that much of your risk into a brand, right? Your own liability into a brand, meaning if something goes wrong with the brand, it's you. It's not the person who runs the company.

49:12Not at all. Like RTS. No one cares who runs the company. Yeah, the management company. I know it's connected to you, not who runs it. I really don't. Or Mina, right? Like your cookie brand. I don't know who's running that company. Yeah. Nor will I maybe ever know. I will only, if any controversy happens with that company, it's you. It's your face in the headline. Yes, I would love to dive further into that because Mina was a massive, massive learning lesson in that regard. Where honestly, even a group of really, really well-intentioned people that are selling you this idea, this dream, this vision.

49:47Even though everybody can mean really, really well, things can still go very, very south. And at the end of the day, if you're putting your face on a product, the liability is going to be on you. So can you tell us what happened with the launch of Mina? Like was the primary pushback price? Like what happened in that experience? So it was kind of a two-part thing. On one hand, the price, basically we had to sell in bulk. Otherwise, the shipping would just be way too much for like one bag. Obviously, that's changed since then. Amazon even sells it through their facilities. So over time, that issue kind of solved itself.

50:26But right off the bat, if you're selling something in bulk and it's something like a snack, it can create a bad headline. Because it's like, oh, you're selling a snack, but for this amount. But that headline doesn't explain the amount of the item that you're selling. You get what I mean? So that was one facet of the issue. And then another facet was that when you work with a food manufacturer, they essentially have different like recipes, almost like formulas that will create different kinds of foods, whether it's like a chocolate chip cookie or a brownie or what have you. And the particular recipe that we wanted to launch with, there was a past company that used a past version of that recipe.

51:09So people could also run with the headline of this is the same product. It's just repackaged. but that's not quite the case it's like oh we worked with the same manufacturer that past company doesn't even exist that product doesn't exist it was like a trial run that they'd done they didn't like that version the company didn't want to pursue or continue using that recipe so we took it we made it better and we sold our own version i hope that kind of makes sense yeah it does make sense yes but from an optics perspective it's like you stole a past yeah pokemon stole this Yes, and it's like drop shipping and an old product, blah, blah, blah.

51:43So unfortunately, from an optics perspective, not ideal. And also from my perspective, I didn't talk about this at the time, but I had no idea that there was even a prior trial run of this product. Got it. And that was something that someone on the team knew, but also didn't think anyone would care. and that's what I mean by no one can really look out for the things that I need to look out for in the way that I know so those two things and I must take responsibility as someone who is very reactive and makes a lot of jokes that maybe I should have sometimes I made some comments that I probably shouldn't have so that was gonna be my next question like how do you what's your emotional state when you're getting backlash online or feedback like that?

52:33I, there are two wolves in me. One is very sassy. One is very kind. And to be honest, like on one hand, that kind of bantery back and forth is one of the things that have made me who I am. It's one of the things that have made me successful the way that I can clap back at people, but hopefully in a funny or engaging way, sometimes that doesn't always land. And when it comes to product launches, it's frankly just not an appropriate time to be joking like that or in some of those capacities. And that's another big learning lesson of like being a content creator is wildly different. And it's just wildly different from being the face of a product or being like a brand ambassador in some way.

53:16And you have to behave very differently as well. How do you handle that mentally? Like with Mina Cookies, right? Like the price is high, people are pushing back. Charlie from Moist Critical is making a video. Millions of people are watching it. How are you internalizing that discussion? Are you worried that brands may pull out? Or are you just like, I'll weather this storm. It'll be fine. You know, it's fascinating. Because in the moment, I mean, I'm only human. So when you see millions of views or potentially people commenting on you in any capacity, very frightening. Almost no matter what it's about.

53:54Yes, exactly. I think I've even had moments where in the past, I'd be really excited about something going viral or seeing a certain amount of views on something. And I think just because I've been in my fair share of drama or controversies, I've grown a bit of a apprehension to those things. Sometimes I'll see something do really well, and it'll kind of freak me out. And I'll just like look away. Like, yeah, whereas in the past, it was like more viewers, more likes, the better. But now I am almost too cognizant of how much of a double edged sword that that is. I think the brands aspect is what is most interesting.

54:30Because I remember during that, there was, you know, a fair bit of negative PR, obviously, or what I thought would be negative PR. And I remember speaking to my agents and my managers at the time and I was like, you know, like I can't help but feel really bad about myself or like feel insecure. How should I respond? What should I do? Like I'm worried that I might be perceived negatively by brands. How is this going to affect my career? I had all of these concerns and doubts, obviously. and their feedback they're just like no honestly like behind the scenes no one cares at all if anything people are more interested because you seem like more of an entrepreneur now i said huh so yeah i was shocked and in that respect i guess even some bad press is good press but i still knew i still knew deep down even though it can be reassuring like oh maybe not everything is crumbling and this is the end of my career it still doesn't change my mind enough to be like oh i should treat bad press as good press i still yeah i'm with you on that i think there's some creators who actively look for the negative press yeah god bless them yeah i could not do that i think the amount of times that i wanted to ask you about what you just said of like oh god my career is over how often do you have that thought um like uh from uh how often do i have that thought in a strong manner even maybe once a year in a light to medium manner twice a year in a very very light manner every few days yeah i was gonna say i have it every few days.

56:12That matches up with me completely. I would say once a year, almost every December, I think. Oh, this is done for sure. I remember my first, what I labeled as a quarter life crisis at like 23. And then you're like, why is the quarter life repeating more than quarterly? Is it like a literally quarterly per year crisis? I think especially as a creator, when you are able to attain such heights. Guys, the heights that I attained during Among Us, like playing Among Us during the pandemic with AOC in front of like hundreds of thousands of people, when you can attain heights like that, you can't help but think like, oh, is it all downhill from here?

56:59Yeah. But it's like, it's because those heights, honestly, they had nothing to do with me. It was just a bunch of circumstances lining up perfectly. who I am, the content that I put out, the audiences that I can reach. I'm trying very hard to solidify in my brain. Like those things are consistent and I can make them as consistent as I'd like. And if I want to do more, I can do more. These are all dials that are within my control. And also the output, how much people like me, how many likes I get, how many views I get. I should not tie my self-worth to it too much. Because again, it's just dials.

57:36It's all just optimizing? How much are you doing things that are trendy? How much are you on the platforms or things that people are actively on? So I've tried very hard these last two years to really separate those two things and also separate from Iman. Yeah. And those high highs are not sustainable, right? Like even in that moment, you're playing among us with AOC. Like the people who are there watching, they're watching for a cultural moment. That's not your everyday stream. Exactly. I also think though, that we're getting to a point where people have been doing this long enough. Like you've been doing this for over a decade, right?

58:09So you've been doing it long enough to experience some waves. And sometimes I have to look at traditional artists, musicians, actors, and go, let us just look back at 20 years of their career or 10 years of their career and look at waves. They go in waves. And I think we have this misguided expectations on ourselves because we control our own networks. networks so our network always has to be like if you control the tv network it does always have to be performing well but if you're an artist you go in seasons but we're both so we get really confused about at least personally i'm speaking for myself where like i think about the the show the colin and samir show it has to always be doing well but then i think about colin and samir as creatives and artists and i'm like but we also need a little bit of space to think of our next thing, just like a band would need to write their next album or something.

59:03So the interplay of those two things is actually really challenging. I resonate with that so much. And I'd love to know how you guys try to solve for that, because I've been able to make some friends who are artists, and I actually really love the format of being on sometimes and being off sometimes. We'll have a season where maybe we're making music or a season where we're releasing and promoting. And those are two very different things, like creating the art or even spending off time, like experiencing life, thinking of things that I want to talk about on the podcast. Like that's necessary for the actual content that I'm outputting.

59:42And balancing those two things is very, very difficult, especially if you want to be outputting 24 seven. I think that's just not sustainable, to be honest. And I would love to see more creators actually have some sort of business structure where it's more seasonal, like a month on, a month off, or two months on, one month off. And I wonder how successful that could potentially be. I wish personally that we had an answer for you, but we at this point do not. We're trying to get there. Do you guys try different things? Yeah, we try different things. I think we're now at a point where we more actively are trying it.

1:00:16I mean, I'm very envious of the world of like film and TV where you can sink your teeth into one project and then release that project. I think that sounds really cool. And it can have a huge cultural impact yeah and long shelf life i also just like sometimes don't want to be on the internet like i don't want to be on the internet sometimes for two three months but i just i'm not going to do that yeah and you feel the need to there are so many things like that that i grapple with i've actually just started reading the ford four hour work week yeah with tim ferris and i'm like maybe i'll find some answers in this tim's great tim came on our show he has a good perspective yeah he's a really good perspective on his boundaries he's a very boundary person and i think that's what's hard for us is because also if you're into video games the internet is a fantastic video game it sure is as is content creation that's what i mean like content creation is a video game when you look at youtube and you look at the dials you get the high scores of views the likes the strategy of it and then you're talking to other people about their strategy and you're like i should be doing that i guess and then you're yeah like it is anyone who's competitive anyone who's it's it's built and designed for you to keep coming back and playing the game.

1:01:25So it is very hard to step away from it and very hard to, I think it would take a long time to condition your mind to not care. Because like has a week gone by in your life without thinking of your next stream? No. I did used to do this thing, which I haven't done recently, but I've been planning on it. In the past, even throughout all of my years of streaming and like the high highs that I was reaching and the crazy momentum that there was with certain video games, with certain streams, I had a pretty strict rule of every two years I would take a full month off. And I think that saved my brain in ways I can't even put into words.

1:02:10A full month. Yes. I would disappear. And I will say there's something, there's really something to be said about anticipation. When you tell people, hey, I'm disappearing for a month. And when you come back, there's kind of like an exciting moment with that too. Yeah, totally. It's very interesting. We both, we feel the need. Our audiences get a lot of us. Yeah. we feel the need to be on all of the time but you know what i think some distance sometimes from the audience is equally exciting for them as it is beneficial for you well a good example of this is squid game squid game's coming back i'm really excited about that i didn't forget about it severance like we're talking about years between these things yeah you're talking about one month i know and even then it has been very hard for me to take another month off yeah and i haven't done that these last two years because I've been streaming less and because it's been so hard to justify in my mind, like, oh, well, I just do it like twice a week now.

1:03:11So like, can I justify disappearing off the internet for a month? But it's like at the end of the day, I want to be the kind of person who doesn't even feel the need to justify. If I know something is either beneficial for me, my mental health, or even my creative process, just fucking do it. Yeah, but the comparison there is what gets hard. I mean, financially, like, we could take two months off. We could stop for two months. But it's the fear of, like, what's on the other side of that? Yeah. What happens? I think, though, for me, what I would love to do is depressurize this show from being the revenue center of the company.

1:03:47Yeah. Because then, all of a sudden, like, I'd love to work on films or work on producing other projects that generate the majority of the revenue so that this show can be a little bit more fluid. And I think that is something I'm curious for you is like, what do you want? How do you want to make money? Because going to two days a week and making the majority of money on brand deals. And I guess that's a part of this is that when you're doing the majority of your revenue on brand deals, then uploading and viewership does matter. That is the indicator of if people will continue spending with you.

1:04:21So how do you want to make money? Is it different from how you're making now? That's actually a great question because it's something that has changed a lot over the years. You know, when I first started streaming, it was like, I want to see 100K in my bank account. And when I do, like, I've made it. And then as the expenses grow, the income needs to grow, too. You need to work harder to keep up with the expenses, to keep up with the business. all of a sudden sometimes you start realizing i'm working kind of just to pay off the expenses that i also chose to have it it gets to be a little bit of a confusing cycle i'm not making that much more money yeah the company is now making way more money yeah it's a bizarre moment so i also um something that maybe is more particular to me i am mainly excited by like chasing new things.

1:05:14I think that's also why I really enjoy just streaming like twice a week now. I can try to do two more exciting or banger streams, but I hate feeling like I'm doing the same thing that I was doing in the past. And I think alongside that in the past, it was very exciting to chase financial goals, whatever they might be, whether for the business or for myself. But I think that's like two, three years ago, I realized, and it feels, I'm sorry to say, it feels like, it feels bad to say, but chasing money is not very exciting for me. Like it feels very privileged to be able to say that. But also, you know, once you've worked hard enough in your career, you get to a point where you're like, am I just going to chase the next step for a number or a financial reason?

1:06:04But for me, it's like, I'm much more excited by something that's maybe creatively exciting or experiencing something new. And so the way that I'm trying to restructure my business next year is not how much more money can I make? How much more can I save? It's how do I pay off the expenses that I want to have? What expenses do I want to have? And by that, I mean, I want to have an assistant. She makes my life a million times easier. That's an expense I want. I want a manager, they make my life a lot easier. I want to pay maybe like a rent for this specific place because I feel secure in this place.

1:06:42The expenses that I specifically want to work for, how do I pay that off? And then how beyond that do I not focus on maximizing revenue? How do I maximize either enjoyment of my day-to-day or chasing things that are exciting for me? I think that's how I'm trying to step into the next thing. Because I think for years I chased views or I chased a financial goal or I chased a career goal. But now it's like, I want to chase more of a life goal. It totally makes sense. And those, those things that you're talking about, to me, those are like grades when you're in school. Like what, what they tell you within that structure.

1:07:18I made that connection. I was like, I live by a rubric just like I did when I was a student. That is, and also when you don't have it, those are the obvious things to try and achieve. but that's the rubric that you're given. Then once you get there, there's no other rubric, right? Like there's no, it's not like you, you pass that level in the video game. There's not another instruction on the level. It's almost like you're creating the next level. And that gets really mentally confusing. And again, we're saying this from a place of privilege as well. It's a must. And it's so hard to discuss. Cause you're like, well, or I rarely discuss this kind of thing.

1:07:53Cause what are you going to say? Like, oh, well I made money now. What it sounds so like stupid. You're like, just enjoy where you're at. But it's also a very real process by which you go through once you're like a decade into a career that you've been like slaving away at. You're like, okay, well, do I want to keep slaving all the time? Am I doing this for other people? Am I doing it for myself? What's fair? What's reasonable? So I'm really trying to challenge myself to not focus or maximize the income. What are you guys doing? And I'm really curious to hear because you said you want the podcast to feel less pressure in terms of being the main source of revenue.

1:08:31Yeah. What do you mean by that? Yeah, I think the pod right now is what drives most of our advertising and brand deals, right? But this year, actually, we did a lot more events and speaking, like public speaking. And that became our second biggest revenue source this year. Whoa. And I looked at that and I was like, that was really fun. And I really enjoyed it. Like the opportunities we got to travel and speak on stage was really cool. And in the future, if we could build in a direction where advertising specifically is not the biggest line item in our revenue, I think it would change the dynamic of the guests we have on the show, honestly.

1:09:13Because I think, you know, there's the reality of, hey, this show needs to perform. So you have to talk to, you have to bring on guests that - That people are interested in seeing. Yeah, exactly. And sometimes you want to bring on someone that no one knows. And so I think there's just a little bit of that. How do I do that? How do I still make it captivate for the audience? I just want to have the space for that. And the landscape for interview shows has changed. I think when we started out with this show, even having Mr. Beast on the show, like there weren't that many other places to hear from him, right?

1:09:40And now when there's so many podcasts. And now there are so many podcasts. There's so many interview shows. The thumbnails look so similar in that you start to feel differently about what you do. Like you enjoy it. Like I love sitting here in the seat, but the performance sometimes you're like, oh, I'm in a sea of this stuff and I don't feel as unique as I used to or as energized. It's very interesting how we in some ways have to commodify ourselves in our brain to figure out what works or doesn't work instead of just being like, I like sitting in this chair and talking to myself. Exactly. You're like, ah, I'm doing this, but also so many people are too.

1:10:14Do I need to change the way that I'm doing it? Do I need to? Yeah. We've like productized ourselves. Exactly. You're thinking about yourself. But that's being the TV executive, right? Because you're looking at, you're running your own network. Because like you are programming. The amount of times I wish I could just have someone else tell me what to do. It's funny that we're here at this point where there was like this democratization of voice and the independence of media where anyone could upload anything. We took the power and we were like, let's do it. Let's do that. And that was the past 10 years.

1:10:41And now we're all getting to this point, which is so interesting. It's like, I kind of want a boss. it would be kind of nice to have a boss and you look at what's happening in the world of streaming you look at you know the two brothers the rocka rocka boys who did a movie with A24 and just blew it out of the water they made 92 million dollars on that movie and A24 I think spent 10 million dollars on it or 4 million dollars sorry 4 million dollars on that movie so it's incredible that movie talked to me you look at you know Mr. Beast and Amazon now now you have a streaming platform doing a huge show with the largest creator that trend is likely going to continue happening, of course, because they need to be in the attention business.

1:11:20But I think also because we're a little bit like, it'd be nice. It'd be nice for someone to tell me I only have 10 episodes. And to not feel like the pressure is all on you for whether or not something ends up performing. Yeah, totally. I also want to add that what you were saying earlier about you guys doing more speaking engagements, I hope you guys feel and know that you're already headed down the path of diversifying the way that you want. Sometimes I feel like we're always thinking about what's next. How do I problem solve for this? How do I problem solve for that? But I think you're doing exactly what you need to do.

1:11:56And it's also exactly what I've been doing. Like I, it's very hard to let go of streaming entirely because that's still where brands are probably going to be willing to spend the most on pokey. So that's why I'm like, okay, I should still do it like twice a week, but let me diversify in the ways that I know over time, I want to become revenues of income, whether that's podcasting. Cause I really enjoy the podcast that I do and the co-host that I do it with, or I love posting on Instagram. So I can still hold on to this stream of revenue that is streaming by doing it a little bit, but I can start working on these other paths and hopefully down the line, there's less pressure here?

1:12:39I don't know if you'll answer this, but what's the biggest brand deal you've said no to, like the dollar amount? This episode is brought to you by LifeLock. Between two-factor authentication, strong passwords, and a VPN, you try to be in control of how your info is protected. But many other places also have it, and they might not be as careful. That's why LifeLock monitors hundreds of millions of data points a second for threats. If your identity is stolen, they'll fix it guaranteed or your money back save up to 40 your first year visit lifelock.com slash podcast for 40 off terms apply

1:13:21okay i'll give some examples that just um that are very top of mind i think one not the biggest but a little bit notable. This monitor company wanted to give me like$50 ,000 to promote their monitor. Never tried it before. So I said, hey, like, can I test it out? They refused to. And this was years ago when like I could really, the 50K, I mean, that's a huge. That's a lot of money. That is a massive. Even now that's a massive amount of money. I still do know. But I still need to try the product first. And for me, that's just something I can't do. If I can't try it first, I can't do it. And also it just makes no sense.

1:14:04How are you willing to pay me that much and you can even send me the product? So yeah, that's always been a boundary of mine. There have, there's been like a half a million dollar deal for just certain things that maybe I don't agree with. There have been some - Is that like online gambling, stuff like that? Whether it's online gambling, websites that are maybe not so safe for work. Whoa. But those are even like six, seven figure deals. Just things that I don't agree with. And the thing is, it is such a goddamn privilege to be able to say no. Yeah, of course. You know? And to know, even if I say no to this now, I can still make a living and I can still be okay.

1:14:48and I am eternally grateful to the audience and community that has supported me to be able to make these decisions myself. You are what you say no to though. Like that is a really important lesson you have to learn as a creator. I think that's the biggest lesson I've learned throughout all the years and one that I keep trying to shove back into my head. It's just as important to know what to say no to as it is to know what to say yes to. If not more important, yeah. Yes, and to say no often, to be honest. It's hard because it also depends on your emotional state. If you're in one of those moments where you think your career is over and you get offered something, you're like, you have overhead and you're like, what does it matter?

1:15:24Sure. Just give it to me. I have to pay my expenses and my career is over anyway. Give me, give me this weird brand deal. Yeah, I think I try so hard to switch between the content creator mind and the audience mind. And it's so weird. And again, sometimes feels a little bit commodifying. But I will literally think to myself, if I was a viewer of me, Pokey, if I was a viewer of myself, what would I like to see myself do? What kind of narrative would I find interesting? And in some ways, in some ways. That sounds crazy. I know what you're saying. In some ways, it's an interesting practice. Also, because I'm trying to do it from the perspective of myself in order to garner an audience that is more like me, not just the people that are watching me.

1:16:13What do they want? That's a very different question. It's like, if I was watching me, what would I like? I love that. If I was a member of my own community, what would I be interested in? I love that lens. That's a good lens. So what does that mean? Like, what are you known for? So I feel like obviously a lot of people know me as a Twitch streamer, the gamer. I played Fortnite to however many people, Among Us to however many people. Now I love collaborating both still in the streaming space, but typically not gaming collaborations, more so like just chatting or IRL collaborations. And then I just adore collaborating outside of the streaming space.

1:16:48and I think that was kind of my way of testing the waters in terms of what I enjoy and I think I'm nearing the end of my testing phase and now I figured out like one new part of almost like the content creator plate that I have you know streaming twice a week I have the podcast once a week and I think I want some sort of like bread and butter that feels more exciting to me whether that'll end up being like posting more frequently on short form content or even IG stories or what have you, but some way to stay more engaged with an audience day to day that isn't just live streaming. So I think that is like the final step in my transition or at least how I perceive it right now.

1:17:31I've also learned to accept like however I perceive my business or my life now could change in six months to a year, especially as the landscape of content creation changes so much, you know? One thing that feels dramatically different in your category is the exclusive contracts. Oh yeah. Those don't, those are gone, right? Gonzo. Like entirely. Ludwig said to us when we talked to him earlier this year, he was like, I think I'm the last. Oh yes. I agree. I agree. So that's true. And what was the, what were those? Like what, what were those exclusive contracts? I want to know. And I also don't want to ask.

1:18:08I just want to say thank you. thank you amazon thank you god thank you jesus thank you my parents are life-changing deals those are like nba contracts right yeah like what were this like to give people who don't know what i'm talking about a framework in their head of what was the range that you heard about from those contracts so for starters to explain to people who don't know there are all these different gaming and streaming websites whether that's twitch youtube uh there was one called mixer there's kick there's all of these streaming platforms and there was a specific period of time like two three-ish years um like three four years where these companies were giving exclusive contracts to creators and saying hey if you stream only on twitch if you stream only on youtube we will pay you this amount of money um as opposed to being able to stream wherever you want however you want whenever you want and i think the ranges that i heard the okay the like ranges i can confirm are like one two twenty million wow anything beyond that i'm like i've seen certain headlines but i cannot confirm yeah there was a headline about xqc getting a hundred million dollars yeah but i've heard different things behind the scenes you also don't know oh it's part of that a hundred million like equity is it paid in different ways was it actually a hundred or was it just a headline that makes everybody look good so nobody refutes it i really cannot confirm or deny but you can confirm you've seen between one and 20 million dollars of those exclusive which is freaking insane and also i'm talking about contracts that get renewed maybe once maybe twice so like additive yeah it's it those were incredible years to watch i'm sure like Like to be a part of that was pretty amazing.

1:20:01And I feel like I lucked out so much. I remember when I got an offer from Twitch or even YouTube, I was like, you guys are going to pay me more to do what I was going to do anyways. You're like, you know, I like this stuff, right? I like what I'm doing. I felt so lucky. And also because it's something that really only happens in an industry at a specific time and period of growth in that industry. Are we going to keep seeing exclusive Spotify deals? Probably not. Just like we're not really seeing more exclusive streaming deals. So I was just like, God damn, I lucked out. Yeah, you were in the right place, right time there.

1:20:38Yeah, absolutely. Was that one of the moments, like getting one of those Twitch deals where your mom knew it was real? Because I want to loop back to that. You said there were two things. The first was that people call her like Poki's mom. And then you were going to get to the second one. What was the other thing? Like, was it the exclusive deal? Absolutely. The exclusive deal. Oh, the other thing that I was thinking about at that time was I was in Free Guy, the movie. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So when she's like, oh, my God, you were in a movie with Ryan Reynolds. My daughter has made it. Yeah, I mean, that's crazy.

1:21:12Yes, exactly. That is crazy. So cute. So cute. God bless her. Love her. I mean, that is life-changing money, right, to do one of those deals. So those don't exist today. But streamers do feel like, again, back to Kai Sinat. and iShowSpeed. I have to apologize. I keep shaking your mic, by the way. No, no, that's fine. I fidget so much. You're all good. Streamers like Kaisenat and iShowSpeed feel like two of the most culturally relevant people. Yes, absolutely. In celebrity culture and the internet today. So they aren't going to get exclusive deals. No, but I will tell you they're making way more than we were at the time.

1:21:52How are they doing that? As they should. Yeah. Like, I think just frankly, the massive audience that they are able to reach, like they're, and they're able to maintain these massive audiences and also convert that into subscriptions, whether that's through subathons or other forms and advertisements. I think the sponsorships for these massive, massive, massive streamers nowadays are unlike anything we've ever seen before. And some of them beat the exclusivity contracts that we used to get. It's just a different landscape. And it's difficult to explain because in a way it's died down in terms of numbers.

1:22:39but if you're at the top, top, top, like the top one to 10 streamers, you're making way more than the streamers did back in the day. Interesting. So it's like - Yeah, I guess like Kai did that big McDonald's deal. I mean, yeah, we're talking about brands like McDonald's and Nike. Yeah. It's a different ballpark. It's a different caliber. But again, like you guys all like during that time, I think that like paved the path for the legitimacy. A little bit, which I'm very proud of. Of streamers because - Yeah, and to have been a part of it during that. Yeah. I'd love to share some perspective a little bit unrelated but a little bit related as much as I think Kai and Speed are incredible and what they do is incredible also when I think of them I think of how much the audience has changed over the years as well they're both two like young dudes who do kind of like crazy wild things and just from a data and analytics perspective I find it really interesting to see who are the top streamers, their similarities, their differences, especially in terms of audiences.

1:23:45And unfortunately, they're just there aren't that many like huge, huge, huge female streamers, at least not on their level, which I think reflects like nowadays the audience has in a way gone more to being a lot of like younger dudes, which is amazing. But I remember during the pandemic, I felt a much, much larger female presence, both in the audience and in regards to the streamers that we were seeing growing and becoming more popular. So that's just an interesting thing that I've noticed as a creator and both a consumer of the Twitch streaming landscape, who you see at the top, a lot of the time can also like reflect the viewers.

1:24:29I have wondered that. And I don't know where you get this data, actually. But even looking at the U.S. election, right, and the podcast strategies and thinking about how the audiences were heavily male and just wondering, and I don't know the answer, but has the internet gotten more male over time? Oh my God, it's very hard for me to say about the entire internet, but I can very much tell you that the streaming landscape, let's say seven years ago, very, very male dominated. It was the most even or as close to as you might get during the pandemic. And since then it's gone back to being more male dominated.

1:25:08How does that impact your experience as a creator? I think back in the day, I didn't really think much about that kind of thing because I was just having fun gaming and I was experiencing this new platform, this new type of content. And really, all I wanted to do was game. But now I feel so lucky that I have all these different channels and in a way, all these different mediums by which I can reach an audience. and now that like a fair amount of people online know who I am I also have this choice of what audiences do I want to reach and I will say in terms of audience obviously my favorite era was that of Among Us because I felt like there are just so many more like-minded folks that I knew were watching me.

1:25:57And I feel like that's why I really enjoy different mediums now. Cause I know I can reach people that maybe aren't as involved in streaming as they may be. Meaning like podcasting or TikTok or vlogs. Yeah, absolutely. It's probably from the era of content I came from, but like I would prefer, if I was to choose one type of content of yours to watch, it's vlogs. Yeah. Like I like your vlogs. I think they're cool. I want to do more of them actually. And I like the like POV vibe. like your I don't remember what it's titled but it's kind of like this it was literally POV your pokey name yeah and I remember I think I've I was so thoughtful about how I wanted to make that video or whether I wanted to kind of go into a new era of being more open online and that's still something that I've been thinking about a lot as of late I think I just became a lot more closed off for a couple of years.

1:26:52As I said, it was almost like in my mind, my like incubation phase where I'm like, I want to be this, this little egg, go into hibernation, really think about who I want to be. And now I'm like, I've decided and I'd like to come out. But that's also the commodification of yourself. I know, which is kind of freaky. The product where you're like, we got to go into R and D and think about what this product is going to be. Yeah. Yes. Um, so when I was like, Oh, POV Pokemon, I'm like, how can I show people the differences between who I maybe was and who I am now. And I really want to continue to do that, especially in vlog format.

1:27:25I'm just unsure if I want it to be on YouTube or elsewhere. Where else would it be? Short form. Oh, like on TikTok. Instagram, TikTok. I mean, right now, without question, the highest margin content product I've seen is short form content. Meaning brands will pay a very high fee for something that is relatively easy to execute for us. But like creatively, you have to think of the right thing to make. But if you solve a format, then it is the most, like the highest margin because it goes across every platform. It generates the most amount of audience and it can generate the most amount of dollars.

1:28:01However, the issue with formatted short form content is I think you can very quickly and very easily get that hamster wheel feel of like doing the same thing day in and day out. But vlogging is interesting. I think audiences get tired of that too. I agree. In short form. I feel like there's like a shorter life cycle sometimes even for how much you can take part in that hamster wheel. So true. You've made so many of these over the past year. I can't watch anymore. Yeah. You also can't make something that someone else could just easily make. You have to do something that's unique with you. That is something I also really wanted to discuss today, which is especially because I know you guys understand content on a much deeper level than maybe most people just like consuming it.

1:28:48And I've shared this sentiment with a few other creators. And it's been interesting to see who resonates or who doesn't. but something I've been contemplating a lot is I recall one of the things that gave me a lot of motivation and drive when I was making a lot of streaming content was this feeling of no one else is doing what I'm doing and no one else has done this before which I've kind of mentioned before and something that makes me less motivated about streaming nowadays is like there's so many people doing totally everything all the time and I feel that majorly yeah right I can imagine also in the podcasting space right and part of me also wonders like is it narcissistic of me to feel this way or is it just like that's what's creatively exciting for me to feel like I'm doing something different um and I I found other especially short form creators actually feel this way where they're like I was so excited initially when there was a lot of momentum and I was doing something new.

1:29:50Now, 500 other people are doing the same format that I am. And it's like, am I making a piece of content to satisfy an audience or to satisfy an algorithm versus can I try to figure out something that feels uniquely me? I think we're all as audiences, at least for me, like I'm looking for more honesty and less strategy when I'm watching content. I think like strategy has become, because this is such a big business now like you mentioned you can feel the strategy and you can but you can even watch it and be like i'm so engaged but i know they strategically are engaging me you know what i mean but when you're talking about deals in the one to 20 million dollar range or higher like you're just yeah you're working in the world where like there's a lot of people involved now it's a different it's a different game it's like uh it's it's just so so different um i'm curious about your team like how many people are on your team now because you did a video with graham stefan like years ago where like this is four years ago where this is what your team looked like i'll show you this oh exciting this is what the team looked like back then how how different it is oh my god it feels like a quarterly review yeah yeah what does the team look like now okay so there's me a business manager still there general manager now i only have one manager which i love okay having to so got to be very stressful because then it's like who who do you expect what from all of a sudden I'm managing my managers.

1:31:19Sure. It's a whole ordeal. So did they split the percentage of what would be for one manager or was that like, um, actually when it comes to managers, I kind of like having them on salary as opposed to percentage. And if I'm going to put you on percentage, it's for a specific purpose or salary plus bonus. I much prefer agents like that's just standard. Yeah. Makes sense. Um, but I also feel like it's kind of less pressure on the manager like they feel less pressure when they have a satisfying salary um and a potential bonus and i put less pressure on my manager when i'm when i don't expect them to provide me a level of benefit that is equivalent to five or ten percent of my business i'm a decade into this i don't know do you guys dislike when people swear no please fine i'm a decade into this shit what like how are you going to justify to me five to ten percent of my business that's a lot yeah so it's just you gotta be doing something you gotta be doing a lot significant yeah and if you're an agent and you are directly involved with how much of the money i'm getting i i can justify that uh but otherwise it's very hard but i also just one quick thing on this i also think that as creators this landscape has changed dramatically where it used to be like i'll sign you if you're an actor and I will go fight for you to get deals.

1:32:42But as creators, the deals come. It's just basically who manages my email inbox and really good agents. And I think we have a really good agent. They go out and get new deals that you couldn't source yourself. Exactly. They do that. But I think in our industry, the standard has become, I sign you, forward me some emails. Yeah. And that is not 10%. I agree. Or 15 % or 20%, which is some. Especially not 20. But it also depends what stage of your career you're at. Are they part of an agency or management that can connect you to other deals that aren't inbound? So every time someone asks me an agent or manager related question, I always tell them, you need to go with someone that you really trust.

1:33:29It's not just about having a manager. And to be honest, it sucks to say, but sometimes like you have to be optimizing how well they're doing their job too. You go from being a content creator to being a boss in a lot of ways. Yeah. Quickly. Very, very quickly. Very quickly. Sorry. I'll finish this really quick. I used to have no more general manager, mainly just a business manager. Now I do have a talent agent, but to be fair, even that has become a team. Like it's not just one agent. You're with the UTA still, right? I actually swapped to WME now. Interesting. Very, very big decision. And I'm happy to get into that after this.

1:34:12It was not an easy one to make. I do have, instead of calling it an investment advisor, I would just say like a wealth manager, someone that I trust with my money. I trust them to grow it eight to even like 20 % a year. If you're beating inflation, I'm happy, but hopefully it's a lot more than that. And just generally who is keeping an eye on my financials in a more in-depth manner than I can. So still got that. I have now two assistants. I have one like primary assistant who probably knows more about me than I do. Shout out to Kim. god bless her she she even like forwards me every single detail even for something like this and she's so cute she's like checking on me every every step of the way she's like car service will be there in 30 minutes are you in like is everything okay are you on your way it's really really nice to have like a right hand person like that especially alongside someone who's in a way a bit more senior um which is my manager someone who can help oversee like big brand decisions and then someone who's like are you in the car are you on the way yeah so those two are just like dream team um i used to have a youtube channel manager but now that i'm not uploading as consistently and as i was kind of deciding what do i even want to upload what do i want to do do i upload once a year do i upload once a month yeah um i've really allowed that to just be me which is nice um i have a youtube editor a short form editor i just have editors that i pay on kind of a per need basis got it whereas before it was a much more kind of like routine monthly system now i'm like oh there are contacts that i trust to get a certain job done and i'll tap them when i need them i love that yeah so surprisingly still pretty similar pretty similar but um i have I guess it doesn't show here lawyers and one big part of my business and unfortunately one of the biggest expenses is an online security team and something that I've never talked about before because you don't really want to be like I have an online security team online but just in general um over the last two years I've had to get in touch with honestly not even one, but like numerous companies, numerous teams who can just get different things done in order to help protect me online, whether that's against doxing or deep fakes or people misusing my name or likeness or copyright or what have you.

1:36:49And that's like a five figure plus monthly expense. Wow. Wow. I mean, but yeah, I mean, it's unfortunate. So that just got to an overwhelming point where you knew like, I need. Not just an overwhelming point, but to be honest, there are just new problems now that didn't exist. Five years ago, I didn't have a problem with like people misusing me in AI or like even using my voice in AI in ways that I didn't consent to or commercial uses or what have you. And now I need to pay people to take something down in order to not hurt my own brand. It's unfortunate, but it is what it is. Yeah. I mean, I can't imagine how violating and disarming it feels with some of the content that you have to face.

1:37:42Not just that. To be honest, the thing that pisses me off the most is it's like, I don't know. You put yourself online for so many years all this time, and then you just wind up having all of these issues that you then need to pay for. and also sometimes thinking about, I'm like, I imagine sometimes a discrepancy between how much I need to pay in order to feel safe online versus how much a male counterpart might need to pay or whether they're even paying or whether they even care. Like I literally have people that I have to pay monthly to essentially scour and see whether my address is online anywhere and then take it down.

1:38:16Like those kinds of things. And I'm like, I wish that wasn't the case. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I can't imagine because we don't have that experience. I mean, we've had some experiences of like deep faking our voice and actually changing our lips with our podcast. Mr. Beast. It was me calling Mr. Beast and they changed our lips and used our voice and it was pretty compelling. Got uploaded to Facebook and it was like us talking about his new casino, his new online casino and how easy it was to make money. and like see me mr base is someone that i imagine actually probably also has that oh my god imagine which is definitely has that expense yeah yeah for sure and then well okay i guess it's also sometimes i think i've been thinking too much recently where i'm like oh my god i'm working and then i get more known online and then i have to pay to be safe online where i'm making myself more known but then the more known i'm i am the more i have problems but that's that's also the problems that's also celebrities that's celebrities in the physical world too right like i think about i absolutely this is bizarre but i thought about this with timothy chalamet showing up to the timothy chalamet look-alike contest you know that that clip of him showing up right and i was just like huh i wonder if he ever just wants to be able to walk through like he can never walked through Washington Square Park in New York City by himself.

1:39:47I am so grateful I'm not on that level. Can't he just go to his own lookalike competition? Or go to a grocery store. Totally, yeah. And it's, again, I hate like sometimes I don't want to have this like woe is me conversation. I know, I know. I'm like the only place that it might be semi-acceptable is a podcast kind of about creators with other people who really understand the landscape so well. But we don't understand it to your scale. I still don't sound like a douchebag. We don't understand it to your scale. like we don't experience it I think you understand it's my skill though the worst thing that we experience because like I still live my life with an assumed anonymity of course right like I walk into a restaurant I'm like no one knows who I am here but that gets challenged quite a bit where either A like the waiter is like hey I love your show or like you know recognize you the worst thing is when you go home and you get a DM that's like I was sitting next to you but I didn't want to say anything that is the worst because you're like what was I doing what was I talking about no I'm thinking way too much I remember having like a serious conversation with my then girlfriend, now wife at like a sushi place.

1:40:48And it was basically like communal seating. And it was only after I came back that I realized that someone was like, I was the person next to you at the table. And I was like, oh no. I know what you mean. Especially as a streamer with a lot of streamer girlfriends who love gossiping in cafes. I'm always like, do you guys ever start like kind of having a sixth sense for when you get noticed? Yeah, of course. The eyes are very different. the eyes are like wildly different um yeah but the worst is when i had that happen once where like there was a few people who recognized me at this comedy show and i said hello and like whatnot and then i in my head as i sit down in the theater i get like the the narcissist in me is like everyone in this theater knows right like i'm the most famous person here and because like four people were like that is wanting to take four on the way into a comedy show is a lot of people and you're with your friends and they're like how famous are you and then as i'm walking out of this comedy show someone gives me the eyes the big eyes you know where it's like oh and and this guy walks up and goes are you and i go yes before he finished his sentence i go yes do you want to take a picture but then he goes yeah i go i was like it's me it's me like lucky you you get to see me tonight.

1:42:08But then he goes, God, man, I really loved your set in Austin at South by Southwest. And I looked at him and I was like, I did do a panel at South by Southwest two years ago. I can't imagine you came to that. Okay. I was like, all right, cool. Thank you, man. Thanks so much. And he goes, and your special is going on Netflix next month. And I was like - He thought, did he think you were Hassan or something? Many people think I'm Hassan Minaj. Really? Many people think I'm him, even though we - Back when your hair was shorter. Dramatically different heights. That is hilarious. I actually still to this day don't know who we think, who we thought it was because when I said, oh man, I'm not a comedian.

1:42:42He just went like blank faced and walked away. Cause I think he was so concerned about being racist or like being like, he's like, gotta go by. He's like, Nope, I'm not doing this. And I mean, that's understandable. Yeah. And that was, that was a good reminder for me to take the air out of my head. It's not, yeah, it's not that serious. That is a hilarious reminder. Yeah. I think for me, like when I encounter people in person or like they recognize me, I just think it's so fun. And I've tried really hard to just get out of my head about thinking much of anything of it because living under that pressure is a lot.

1:43:19Do people recognize me? What do they think about what I'm doing or who I'm with or what's going on? I'm like, I'm just going to live my life. And if something comes of it, I know even if it becomes a thing online, it'll go away in two weeks anyways. Do you fear or think about your physical security in the same way you think about your digital security? Only if I'm live streaming. And only in other ways. Like, for example, if I'm at a restaurant, I will never post that I'm at the restaurant until I leave the restaurant. Small things like that you get a little bit more used to, but not like actively walking around.

1:43:50Thank God. There's no deeper parasocial relationship than streaming. Kind of, yeah. Because like podcasting, you know, we're talking for hours and you can hang out with us for hours and you feel like you're in the room or in between your ears. But streaming, you're like, that's you. quadruple the length of this episode and make it live yeah and make it live and make it six times a week and make it interactive make it so i can say something and you react to me now i have a relationship with you so that is like i think when someone sees you in real life they're like i think there's a lot of kind of um almost like security protocols i've learned that i really would love to pass on to other people but it's just hard to know the right way to for example like as much as i wish i could live in a house or live with other people like i just can't i have to live in a building with some level of security your front door what have you um and that's just been something you got to learn along the way another thing that is maybe more unique to the position that i'm in anytime i move into a new apartment i have to hire people to take down every single photo of that apartment that exists anywhere and if anything makes it very unique i have to change those things like in my last apartment that i lived in it had a very unique like booth and like color scheme in the kitchen.

1:45:02And I had to repaint everything. Because if anyone finds that one photo online of that apartment, they piece it together so quickly. So kind of learning to work around these things that you would have never considered otherwise has been a learning process. Just some unique parts of the business. Can I read an iPhone note of yours? So it says, every now and then I become really reflective and low-key feel guilty being a content creator slash profiting from social media because it's so addicting and can be so harmful, especially to young minds. I especially find myself feeling this way when I realize how much social media impacts my personality, life, opinions, and desires.

1:45:43I cope by trying to be a positive influence on others or hope that I can also use social media as a tool to encourage people to take care of themselves, spend time outdoors, create healthy boundaries with all the apps we use. Friendly reminder that this digital space is just that. It's virtual, made up, fake. So don't lose yourself in it and compare yourself on it. Damn, I was kind of cooking with that one. Yeah, you really were. Okay, I would love to tell you about where this came from. This has been a reoccurring thought slash guilt ever since I watched The Social Dilemma. Have you guys seen it?

1:46:18Yeah, yeah. Of course. For those who haven't seen it, it's just like a Netflix documentary that really dives deep into, frankly, the algorithms that we consume and the negative ways in which they impact us and just the negative impacts of social media in general. And I think for a long time, I had a lot of guilt about it. Like, wow, I'm profiting off of something that in a lot of ways is very detrimental to a lot of young minds, can be a very negative influence. Maybe the things that I post, people are comparing themselves to me in a good or bad way, whatever. And I just spiraled into, that was a real quarter life crisis.

1:46:56And I think where I ultimately landed is I think knowing these things should hopefully make me a better creator as opposed to not a creator at all. Because they really had me thinking like, do I even want to participate in this machine that can be so harmful? Do I want to be just like a cog in a wheel doing things that I don't even maybe agree with? Especially when you look into some of the platforms that we use and especially if they're private platforms they can pick and choose what they want the things that they push or don't the politics behind all of these things i'm like do i even want to participate in it and that's why i end by saying like at the end of the day i'd rather try to be a positive influence than not an influence whatsoever especially with notes like that and remind people like we got to get the heck off our phones sometimes.

1:47:53The real world is out here. And I've experienced all these negative side effects, maybe even more than most. So I really, really understand the impacts. And however, I still feel like we don't talk about them enough. I think we're all so used to things moving really rather quickly, how popular TikTok has become, even aspects like the filters that are used on these apps, the ways that we edit ourselves or showcase each other. And frankly, a lot of the harmful trends, especially for young women online, I feel like these things, it's just become extremely normalized. We don't really take a look, kind of zoom out and investigate the trends that are occurring.

1:48:39We're just also caught up in it. So that's kind of my perspective thus far. It's just trends that we're aware of and then people like. Well, that's life now. That's modern day life now. We're just getting really desensitized right now. The amount that we just see in front of our face on a minute by minute hour basis. And the meme-ification of everything I think is a really interesting moment in history because it normalizes things. Like joking about something or making it a meme is like a coping mechanism with a lot of things. and then being exposed to that and recognizing that you can find humor in very dark things normalizes and desensitizes you to some really horrible things.

1:49:21On one hand, it's nice. It's almost like we all have an inside joke about this terrible thing. And on the other hand, it's like, we can all become very desensitized to things that we shouldn't be desensitized to whatsoever, including even the way that we comment on other people. When we read other comments, like whether we want to or not, It gets registered in our brain and our subconscious in some way or other. So I hope that with this message or in general, I can just be a reminder to people that the content that we consume kind of sounds crazy. I want to say consumes us too. It will make up who we are.

1:49:57It sounds like it's going in the iPhone notes now. Content we consume consumes us too. But it can build who we are subconsciously. so try to filter what you're engaging with and be very mindful of what you're engaging with you can say that I love using the not interested button I use the heck out of that button I use that too but I don't know how well it works I feel like it doesn't work on X I say like not interested Twitter you just need to manage your screen time on that period you just have to manage how often you go there because either way you're going down a bad path what's your creative process like for your your content and your streams like do you write like do you have an ideation team do you like how do you think of your ideas i will say the way that i used to make content is very different from what i do now everything just depends on what part of my career i'm at so let's say back in the day if i was streaming five six times a week and maybe i I was reacting to certain articles or videos or whatever.

1:51:01I would even delegate that. I would have people source things that were interesting or relevant to send to me. Nowadays, if I'm streaming, it depends if I'm planning something. If I'm doing a cooking stream, we'll get a recipe. We'll get some guests. We'll do whatever. But I don't plan things out as much as I used to until I'm like really certain of a certain content type that I want to do. As of late, short form content has been like my latest challenge to myself. Learning how to make short form content has been fascinating. Streaming, you can turn it on and have a great stream. You can plan it and have a great stream.

1:51:35Short form content. Oh, my God. Even figuring out like what shots to use, what kind of visual hook you want at the beginning to scripting something out, recording it. Does that match the way the editor edited it? Do you want this piece? It's a whole new challenge to me, which has been really, really fun. so yeah it entirely depends on the medium and i've kind of gone about it very differently throughout my career nowadays very much just chasing something that excites me so whatever i'm doing i know i'll show up well and when i show up well the content will be good too show up well meaning the realist interpretation of yourself or like visually show up well both.

1:52:19No, show up excited. I know when I'm excited for something, that's when the best results occur. You have this quote that's super interesting. That was the worst thing for a Twitch stream is a narrative or a story. And you're saying that in the context of people need to be able to jump in at any time. Yes. Okay. That is something so unique about the medium that is live streaming. And I keep referencing mediums of content, because again, I just, I love chasing a challenge. And I'm like, I've been able to do the live streaming thing. I've been able to do the YouTube thing. Now I'm like trying to learn how to do the short form, the podcasting thing after having done a couple of different podcasts.

1:52:59So yeah, for live streaming, you cannot have a live stream that is too heavy on narratives because if someone comes in the middle and they don't know what happened, they're not engaged to watch all the way through. So it's much better to create some form of, something that's either repeatable. That's why games are great. There's a new session of the game every 30 minutes or so. Or something that is just easy to tune into at any time. But if it's like start, middle, end, I think it's much less conducive to streaming in general. Does streaming represent the radio? Because I look at every medium and think about where it came from.

1:53:36I used to think that all the time, be like, no dead air. Yeah, no dead air. and also on for like, you could turn it on and just have it in the background. Right. Like I think about a lot of current mediums and where they came from. And I think streaming came from the radio, whereas like vlogging came from reality TV, same with, you know, TikTok and like podcasting has been around forever. That's essentially the radio or like talk shows and, you know, interview shows. So yeah, to me, streaming is the radio. To me, streaming is a combination of a YouTube video and the radio. And the radio. Yeah.

1:54:12Like a, yeah, that's. A nice middle ground. Yeah. That's what I feel like we learned from speaking with Ludwig for the first time is learning how he actually orchestrates his streams so that they can be made into a YouTube video. Right. Right. It's kind of just like you're watching the live production of what will be my YouTube video. It's almost like a means to an end, which still ends up being really entertaining piece of content. Totally. I think that's one of my favorite things about live streaming as well. so many people do it so differently and can make it work regardless. And you can kind of find that in all different types of content too.

1:54:42And it's been fun being a part of kind of the initial growth of that industry because I got to be able to trial and error so many things and be like, oh, this kind of thing works really well for streaming. This kind of thing, not so much. Is it still possible to make it as a streamer if you're starting now? A hundred percent. I think it's more possible to make it as a streamer now than ever. Because you have all these resources and tools available to you. And you have so, so many great case studies. That is one thing I really struggled with, especially as a female streamer. When certain games blew up a lot, like Fortnite or Among Us, to heights that we'd never seen before.

1:55:25I was like, I don't have a good case study. I don't know who to ask some of these questions to. But now there's so many streamers, so many people that do it in so many different ways, so many careers and storylines that you can go and really study and replicate what they've done. So I think it's more likely and easier to make it now than ever, actually. So if you're starting fresh, is the strategy? Collaboration. Collaboration. That's the number one best strategy. And clips? Yes. Yeah. TikTok clips, especially. That's how most of the massive streamers that we've seen in the last couple of years have gotten so big.

1:55:59Like think Kai, JC, Speed. They have clips go viral all the time. So it's really like the best exposure tool, I would say. What do you think the future of a platform like Twitch is? Because it feels like Twitch is losing a hold of its relationship to creators. Is that accurate to say or no? To be honest, I think Twitch has had a PR. problem for a very long time. whether that be from a mainstream perspective or even just from an industry perspective which I kind of feel bad for them because I know a lot of great Twitch employees and I know that's a heavy burden for them to carry where the narrative is always like Twitch is kind of like making mistakes.

1:56:43Yeah. Changing things and taking it back and losing advertisers and not making money and this and this. And it's hard to say how much of that is really true or not without obviously being so internal to the company. I think one of the things I always wished they would do and that I feel would actually be good for profits though, is I wish they made the subscription perks more native to the platform and gave us more options. And I've been begging them for this for like six, seven years. Like kind of a Patreon Twitch streaming combination. So there's multiple layer or levels of subscription and those would unlock different things.

1:57:17Yes, but you cannot give different perks for these different levels. Aside from emotes and things that are built in, but really not that substantial. Yeah. There should definitely be like a premium subscriber only stream type thing. And then. Yeah. There's so many different things you could do. Or like clips or vlogs, like you could upload them in the inside of Twitch. Maybe that there's four subscribers only. I remember when I first started streaming in university and I was really trying to grow as a streamer and I was like, what perks can I give my subscribers that aren't already out there? I literally had someone build me an external like third party website and app where I basically had a subscribers only blog and you would have to authenticate through Twitch.

1:58:06But once it authenticated you and saw that you were a subscriber, I had like subscriber only blog posts or videos or photos. Like I just created a whole external website for it. And I'm like, why can't you just put this in the website also the challenge there is like maybe that would work at scale but it might just work for specific cases and twitch as like when you're a platform maybe they would be less of a live streaming website and more of oh we're doing too many things i want like a jack of all trades yeah now we're a membership platform and that's the challenge with like youtube and twitch where or any of the platforms they have to build for the majority you have to build for the vast majority and for the newcomer they have to build a model that's just like anyone could become the next streamer.

1:58:49If they complicate the model, it's like, yeah, it can get challenging. I do feel like Twitch still has quite the monopoly in the streaming world. Totally. And so I think even if from an outsider's perspective, sometimes it's like, are they doing well? Why are people complaining about Twitch all the time? At the end of the day, Twitch is still Twitch. Like it's known as the live streaming place for a reason. Yeah, and I think the people working there just have to do their best to maintain that working service. It does have an interesting PR vibe to it. But I think about it often because it's producing cultural relevance at a, like the way that we saw TikTok and as TikTok emerged in cultural relevance, I'm like, but Twitch is producing cultural relevance in a different like depth.

1:59:33Isn't it interesting how culturally relevant it can be, but still not profitable as a company? And reliant on other platforms. Yeah. And reliance on YouTube. Yeah. Yeah. And how it's unfortunate, but maybe the reality of things like the biggest growth spikes we've seen on Twitch were all due to things completely unrelated to the platform. I think YouTube is probably one of the most impressive platforms because you actually, you see it grow. Sometimes it feels like for reasons of its own or actually improve as a platform itself and feel like it's becoming more valuable to the everyday consumer, whether that's really well built out ads or really for any creator, you would look at YouTube as a platform and be like, this is a very valuable platform, period.

2:00:21Do you guys kind of get what I mean? It's very well built out. And I must say, probably the Google acquisition had something to do with that too. Yeah, for sure. Of course. Yeah. What's one thing that in a year from now, if you haven't done, you'd be upset with, or like if you could just paint me a picture of one year from now, what does success look like for Pokimane? It's funny, the first thing I thought of was like, fix the lighting on my new podcast. That feels attainable. Yeah, you could do that. For sure, for sure. Yeah.

2:00:55On one hand, what I also really want to say, and what is honestly top of mind, is figuring out a type of bread and butter piece of content that isn't live streaming focused. As much as I want to say that, I also want to say, do I need to? Like I want to almost like question that desire and sense of necessity. But I guess that's something I'll figure out. I think I would really love to be comfortable with another series or piece of content. I think the podcast has been great for that, but the podcast is also me and another creator. So it's very collaborative in that sense and doesn't feel like just me.

2:01:36And especially when I do collaborations even like this, I'm like, what am I funneling people into? Because I no longer want to funnel them into just my streaming page because that's not what I'm doing all the time. So what do I want to do all the time? Kind of solving for that. That's a good answer. Thank you. I think that's a really good answer. Scary to say because now I'm like, now I'm telling you guys, now people are getting known. It's like, what if I don't come up with shit for the next year? Now we're all watching. But it's also fun to watch you. With this context, it's fun to watch you explore now.

2:02:05It's fun to watch you experiment. Like, I think that can be the bread and butter. Oh, maybe. Like the outward, it's very meta, but the outward facing for the time being can be like, watch me experiment. Or if it is with your pod with Lily, it's like, I'm going to talk about my experiments here. No, that's actually a great feedback loop for me because I think I've been very, very to myself the last couple years in terms of these thought processes. But I actually think sharing them is probably like pretty interesting to an audience or at least then when they consume the content, they have an added piece of like context about, oh, she's doing this kind of short form because she wanted to try to do it or experiment with something new or get better at a different medium.

2:02:50And then they get to be a part of your evolution sooner, right? Than like finding out sort of after like, oh, she was trying to do that thing. They just get to be a part of it. That's so true. well we're rooting for you thank you so much we're really excited i'm i'm i'm curious to see where you go next i think this whole cohort of people who emerged over the past 10 years like i always wonder what is it going to look like in 10 15 years from now are we going to be at like some awards events together and be like oh wow you're acting now you know you're like i wish there was like a creator reunion i know but that's like a streamies was kind of like that it doesn't really happen anymore.

2:03:27But yeah, we don't, we don't have that. So maybe we should make it. We should make it. Also alongside that thought, I wanted to add that that was another big learning lesson the last year or two, where as you guys said, you're kind of sold this dream of you become a content creator, you gain an audience, and then you're able to monetize that audience by selling them a product. Right. And then when I came out with mine, I was like, wait a second. One, it's not that easy. Two, it's a lot of liability. Three, I'm 28. I don't actually want to retire and become a CEO and just sell a product. It actually was this process by which I was able to kind of reignite my motivation and desire to put myself out there again to make more content.

2:04:10I'm like, actually, this is so fun. It actually came about in a therapy session where my therapist was like, what would you need to do now in order to stay in this career for another five to 10 years? And I had to snap out and be like, wait, I can have a career that's another five to 10 years long. But when you start at 17 and you go full-time at 21, at 28, you're like, damn, I've been doing this a long time. Time to retire. But that's really not the case. No, it's not the case. You think I'm really short time windows, but wait, you're saying that you learned that through like launching Mina. Yes.

2:04:43I was like, wait, this is actually not what I want to do. Yeah. Cause it's hard. And it's hard. I'm not saying because it's hard. It's hard in a way that's not our core skill set. Not just the core skill set, but it's not the challenge that I want at this part of my life. Exactly. Exactly. I feel that way. And I think that's kind of work and life in general. What problems do you want to be solving? Whether it's what career path you want to choose, what content you want to make, what's the next pivot you want to do. And interestingly enough, even in your dating life. I've learned that sometimes when you're choosing a partner, you're equally choosing what problems do you want to solve?

2:05:18Totally. The expectation on a partner is not actually that things will just be great. The expectation, the question that I used to talk to a lot of my friends about and when I was looking for a serious partner was, who do you enjoy resolving conflict with? Yes. Do you like their process of conflict resolution? Because if so, then you'll be good partners. Exactly. Because the assumption that there won't be conflict is misguided. It's not about finding a perfect person. It's someone you want to solve those problems with and you're solving the problems that you like. And you grow on the other side of solving those problems.

2:05:54Yes. Yeah, totally. And even when you consider different potential dating partners, you're like, some people might be really busy, but maybe more financially stable. Maybe some people are less busy or less career inclined. It's like, what benefits do you want as much as what downsides? And I try to view whatever content I want to pursue similarly. And that's the same thing with vlogs. I love vlogging, but also imagine I vlog weekly or every day. The downsides are like, you're putting your entire life out there all the time. And you always want to find something new and engaging to pursue. Dating gets hard then too, because it's like, do they just want to be in the vlog?

2:06:28Oh my God. Let's not even get there. That'll be for the next time I come on the podcast. Yeah, that's for your pod with Lily. Or for my podcast, yes. All right. Well, thanks so much for joining. Thank you guys so much for having me. This was really fun. Again, love that you guys do this. And I know on some level, as we discussed, you're probably like, there's so many podcasters. I really feel like what you do is still very, very unique. What you bring to the table is very different. And the kind of conversations that I see on this channel are unlike anywhere else. Thank you so much. Thank you guys for being a platform for it.

2:07:05you