Emma Chamberlain on money, fame and the future of YouTube

32:13We looked at. That's so fucking scary. The subreddit's a wild place. Scary place. I mean, the amount of, the amount of opinions on you as a human being. I don't even want to know. Yeah. I mean, you should not. I will never. Don't hang out. Yeah, it's not worth it. I will never go on that. Don't hang out there because it's also like, it is just that concept of like this ever present human that is just watching you. and thinking about you and commenting about you. And it's, you know, in the beginning of your career, I imagine that was like a really exciting thing to develop this relationship with a lot of people who saw you as their best friend.

32:50But I'm curious your emotional journey through that relationship, because you did build something where people just will watch you do whatever because of their relationship to you. There's a video you made that is like one of the most aspirational YouTube titles and thumbnails, which was You Totally Caught Me Making Soup. Which is a great video. And even then, it was stylistically a little different from what you were doing at the time. It was like voiceover for 12 minutes about you making the soup. We saw that title and thumbnail. It was so crazy. It opens with a shot of peas. It was so weird.

33:24I loved it. That was like an experimental film on YouTube. Totally. But it has like six or seven million views. And I looked at that, and that is an example I show to people if they don't understand the depth of connection between a YouTube creator and their audience. Yeah. Where you can upload something. If you get to, actually, again, you might be unparalleled, but you get to a place where you can upload something called You Totally Caught Me Making Soup, and six million people are interested in that. Well, I can't, for one, I think I can't comprehend it. Right. It's very overwhelming. Like it's definitely overwhelming because I feel this immense pressure to provide something to these people who, for whatever reason, I'm getting passionate talking with my hands and bumping everything.

34:17I feel a responsibility to be a good friend, you know? And it is weird because they actually do kind of know me. It's not a, like, it is not a facade.

34:34So, it's really unusual. And I don't feel like, oh, I need to act a certain way now. Like, I've been at, like, a party or at, like, a bar. And somebody's come up to me. And it's like, you already know me. Like, you already know me. yeah like I'm doing like I'm at a party or I'm at a bar like I'm drinking I'm in like a different setting that you like never see me in like it but it's still I don't worry about it because I'm like because you know me you're not judging me because you know me I don't know how to explain it but it is special in that way but there's definitely it's not all sunshine and rainbows Sure, of course.

35:20It definitely, because I think also people feel so connected to me that they expect things from me. They expect me to be a certain type of friend to them, if you will. And people get really deeply mad at me. Like as though I cut them off. Like it's like cutting off a friend in real life. Yeah. People get people are currently very mad at me. It sucks. I mean, it's not I it sucks, but. I do what I have to do, you know what I mean? Like I can't. And hopefully they'll see that I can be a good friend again, just in a different way. And I am a good friend. In a different way now, you know what I mean?

36:18like on my podcast. It's different. It's different. And some people are like, I don't like that. Totally fine. But then they're like, you're gone because I don't like what you're doing now. And the old thing is gone. So you're gone. I lost you as a friend. Fuck you. And it's like, yeah, but aren't good friends supposed to just, you know. Unconditionally. Unconditionally love, but no. Yeah. I think your fan experience is unique, even just because of the time that you became so popular. Like social media and platforms have changed so much. There are so many people who are available to us that we can consume little parts of on TikTok or Instagram or whatever.

37:02But back then, like it was there weren't as many of us and there weren't as many platforms. So it was just like, oh, yeah, YouTube, Emma, she is like established. She is stamped and there's not much competition on Netflix. There's not much competition on TikTok. Of course, there are other creators at the time on YouTube. There's great stuff. But you, at that time, were the marquee lifestyle creator, and it was like a hit show. So it was more siloed. Now that doesn't happen as much. There aren't as many. Actually, there are way more. But there aren't as many people who feel as singular. I know exactly what you mean.

37:40It's very saturated. Yeah. And I think that's part of why I can't do it anymore. Vlogging, for example. It has been, there's so much of it everywhere. It's so saturated that selfishly and creatively, it's not a way of storytelling that I feel inspired by anymore. Or I can't, yeah, it's just, it's, there's, and by the way, I understand why there's a lot of people vlogging because it's, it's enjoyable. And also everybody has something different to provide. So it's like, it's a great format. Also filming and editing has become so democratized now. Like, man, I used CapCut for the first time to like three weeks ago.

38:39And I was like, wait a second. This is so easy to use and so unbelievably like complex too. Yeah. Like you can keyframe, you can punch in, you can punch out. Everyone knows how to edit. Yeah. And that took me so long to figure out. The fact that you can just do it like sitting on your phone and it's also your camera that you're editing with. Yeah. Is insane. It's insane. It's like a creative ego type of thing. Because I've thought about this with myself. like I really want to be known as singular like a one of one what I'm doing is unique and even in our space as I start to see more shows that interview creators talk about the behind the scenes it makes it like less fun like I feel like I'm all of a sudden less of myself because there are other people doing it and that's ridiculous yeah but I get it because like of course there should be a lot more people who are telling more stories that's good like I support that but yet creatively, it makes me feel like I am less than I was last year.

39:38Well, it feels good to provide something that they can't get anywhere else. Yeah, definitely.

39:47Unfortunately, when you invent something or you create something, it will inevitably be copied, right? For sure. Especially if it's successful. Right. That's the thing. It's like, if it's successful, yes. True. But it's like, it's tough. It's tough because as much as we can be honored that people admire something that we did, it does. It can mess with your head and it can uninspire you. It also, though, pushes you to do something new and add something new. It's a good challenge to have to be like, so what else do I, but it's, it's, it's almost frustrating where you're like, oh, I arrived. I got to this place where I have always wanted to come creatively.

40:41And then you're like, oh, why are they, why are they catching, why are they here too? Yeah. Like, why are you here too? I know. I'm like, I created this space myself. Were you, were you like aware of it? Everyone talks about your editing. And like, I remember first watching your stuff and being like, whoa, this is, this is different. You know, like this is insane. Like zoom in, zoom out. Your head was like exploding at times. Yeah, it was a lot. Like shaking. I felt like I was getting punched like kind of in a good way where I was like, all right, this is like keeping me on my toes. I love it.

41:11Were you aware that you were doing something unique? Because the amount of videos on YouTube that are like, learn how to edit like Emma Chamberlain or like how many people then did that exact style. Were you aware that you were creating a style? Like what was that era for you? No, like, sorry, I had to burp. Okay.

41:35So I, actually, I don't think I've ever told the story. Maybe I have. In high school, my friends and I used to do these like dance routines. Like we'd make dance routines. I was a cheerleader. Some of my friends were cheerleaders. Some of them were dancers, whatever. But we'd make these like funny dance routines. We'd film them on the webcam of my laptop during lunch. And then during my next class, which was history, I would edit them on iMovie, right? And I would edit them like how I eventually edited my videos, which was like zooming in here, zooming in here. And the reason why I did that was because, I mean, this was just simply for my friends and I's enjoyment, right?

42:23The reason why I zoomed in was so that you could see it better. It wasn't like for emphasis or for this or for that. It was, but then I started to become obsessed. I was like, this is so fun. Like editing these dance routines is what makes it funny. Like zooming into one of my friend's faces, doing this, doing that. And I don't even remember how that happened. It was such an automatic thing. From there, like I didn't do that on YouTube at first. There was like a period of time where I didn't do that. but then when I sort of let go and I was like I'm just gonna have fun and be me my dad gave me the advice he was like you should treat your YouTube channel how you treated those videos that you used to make with your friends and I was like oh something clicked and then I was like I'm just gonna take that editing style over and the editing for me was very intuitive it was like this needs to be emphasized this doesn't this like there's no formula it was just like what's gonna make this funny to me i was a very hyper young person and that is literally how i saw the world was like zoomed in here zoomed out here like text on the screen like it was that was literally how my brain worked and people started copying it and i was like this is cool.

43:51Like, but then it wasn't cool anymore when people were like, Emma did not come up with this. Or like, Emma, this is not Emma's editing style. I didn't copy anyone. It was very much me. And so I got pissed. I was like,

44:10what? And people were ruthless with me. That was probably the first time I got real hate was people trying to figure out if this was something that I invented or not. And at the end of the day, I was like, I don't care. But also, it was like a battle. It was like a battle. It became like, who came up with it? Whose is it? It got really hairy, kind of. That's interesting. Where's this battle taking place? Is this in the comments? It's all in the comments. It's like, she didn't invent that. And it's like, I didn't invent a lot of things. But you're copying me. It's okay though. Like it could all be fine.

44:58I copy people too. I copy people's style all the time. I probably copied things in YouTube videos. I copied video concepts. We all copy. It's how we learn and it's how we find our own thing. There's nothing wrong with that. But it became a battle and it was hairy. but also I was 16. Yeah. A lot of these other people are 16. YouTube is this mix of like high school dynamics and then like very high level film and creative emotions of like, we oftentimes as creators aren't treated with the same status or level of respect as like an artist or a filmmaker. But like the concept, what you're discussing right now is the concept of atership, right?

45:41Of like, that's my thing. I made that thing. Yeah. And that's always in question in filmmaking when there's a lot of people working on one thing. Yeah. But like we do as creatives care about that stuff. And I feel like even more today in 2023, people look at us so much like strategists, media companies, entrepreneurs, and sometimes lose sight of the fact that we're just emotional, creative people who like making shit. Yeah. And we care about the fact that we made the thing. We're so protective because we all have like this. There's so much uncertainty in this industry that we're all scared at all times.

46:24Like, oh, is somebody else going to steal my thing? And then it's over. And then they're going to go like this and I'm going to go like this. And then what now? You know what I mean? We're all a little protective of our creative ideas. understandably so. Because we're like, you know. But you're hard to copy. I would say today you're hard to copy. There's always these like, hopefully, if you're a creator, there's something intangible that's like, yeah, I can copy your Zooms, I can copy your this, but you're not going to be able to replicate, like whatever it is. Well, that's I think what is so, like it's, this industry is magical because it does celebrate people's individuality.

47:11You know what I mean? Like the style of editing, the this, the format, the this, that, that matters a lot. And for some people that who don't show their personality, that's all that matters. But we do have that safety net if we decide to show our personalities that nobody can replace us because everyone on this planet has their own unique perspective. Like that's that makes you irreplaceable if you can show that. But that's a superpower that we all have. You know what I mean? When you say this industry I'm just curious what you're talking about. I don't even know what I mean because it's so huge.

47:50Well, because I look at you and I'm like you transcended our space. Like the YouTube kind of and social space into a more just mainstream, right? Like to put it lightly, you're in show business. I don't know that we're in show business. You know, I don't know. I don't, I've always wanted to be in show business. I've always thought I was in show business. I don't know when someone will deem me being in show business. But to me, you're in show business. We're not. We're in like internet business. See, I don't even know where the hell I am. can I be honest where the hell am I like I I don't even because it's all so like it's also the line it's so abstract it's super abstract it's like it and it's blurred it's not abstract and blurred it's so because I'm not I'm still not in any traditional spaces necessarily well kind of like I think some of the stuff you do in fashion Yeah, for sure.

48:59It's most similar to what other celebrities or actors do, right? Like working with high fashion brands and being an ambassador or being at Paris Fashion Week, like that's reserved for a certain caliber of celebrity. That's the reality, right? And like looking at you do it, then that in turn gives us, I think, all the understanding that you've now transcended into a new caliber. Do you feel that way? Yes, but I also think those spaces are changing. Like fashion is no longer. Like I go to fashion shows and there are kids who blew up on TikTok there. Oh, for sure. There's like, you know what I mean?

49:45Yeah. So to me, it's so interesting because I feel like it's become one big. Just culture. melting pot in a way that there are still some things that I think feel just feel a little different like I mean I think you know sort of the environment at like the Met Gala that feels different that's just different I would hope that feels different it does I mean it does in the sense that like actually everybody hanging out in one room feels the exact same obviously it's not like it's literally the same. It feels like a high, it still feels like a big group of high school. Right. Like kids who kind of know each other but kind of don't and maybe you have a crush on that one.

50:33It's like the same, it's literally like prom. That's it. It's like, you know, and that's how it feels also at maybe a VidCon in a way. It's like, no. You haven't been to VidCon in a while. Yeah, you haven't been to VidCon in a while. I know, VidCon. If you can make the connection between the Met Gala and VidCon, I would love to hear it. I just don't know. I'm trying over here. We just can't let you make that comparison. We've never been to the Met Gala. VidCon's a terrible example. Don't know if we'll be invited. Like what? Like the Streamys. Oh my God, I got so roasted for my speech at the Streamys and it still comes up.

51:09Don't tell me you've ever seen it. Of course I've seen it. No. Of course I've seen it. I haven't seen it. So on this side of the table. I'm squirming because it's so embarrassing. but nobody told me I was going to win. They're not supposed to tell you you're going to win. It's in a work show. I thought that this was show business. No, that's how it works. See, I wasn't in show business. You wanted show business at the time. Now you know. Okay. We've delivered streamies we don't even know until we're up there with the envelope. Whoa. Yeah. We had to practice everyone's names. We had to practice everyone's names.

51:37And we really delivered to Charlie D 'Amelio. Of course. We took a big pause. Oh, yeah. And we, in unison. I don't even know how we did it, but it was our moment. And the streamie goes to... Charlie D 'Amelio. Yeah. That's magic. So yeah, back to the Met Gala and those environments. Like the one thing I just, the videos you've made about the Met Gala, like I've always been enamored by those environments. And like, I don't know how I would do in that. Sometimes I end up at stuff like that. And I'm like, I actually don't like this. Yeah. But I like to live in a world where I aspire to do that. And what I really liked about the most recent Met Gala video you made was we got to come along with you as a friend.

52:18And the points of emphasis for me, rather than them being zoom-ins or punchy edits, were the moments where there was audio. Because there's moments where it's montage, there's music and it's fun. And actually those moments are the, you know, aspirational kind of unattainable moments. And then you drop us into hyper-attainable, personal relatable moments when you're delivering to camera or talking to someone else in the room and that juxtaposition in that video to me was like oh here's someone who gets to do things that are reserved you know for for a certain type of person and are unattainable but she's still bringing us into what's the reality which is like you're sitting and eating sushi and ripping out your extensions and like you know like there's a reality to what those feel like yeah and it's not all, you know, glitz and glam.

53:12There's also just like, yeah, you're still a human being in a hotel room. Like, and you just sit there until it's time for you to go. Like, it's not that. It becomes what it becomes when I'm editing. Like that's really when it gets creative for me. The filming is less creative. It's more just sporadic and on the go and random. And then I build it into something later. And I was so excited when I started to edit that video because I, that was such an organic reality where there was both sides of it. And it was so easy to create that juxtaposition because it was just handed to me because it's so accurate.

53:55But, like, it is sort of glamorous. It is, you know, this rare experience. And there is something magical about that. But it changes absolutely nothing else. Like, it just doesn't do anything. It literally, it's. Well, hold on. Yeah, okay. The year prior, you have a moment with Jack Harlow. Oh, yep. where you have this nice interview. He says, love you. As he walks away, you say it back. You look at the camera. And that moment, to me, took you. Transcended me. Pushed you right into the mainstream. Yeah. Do you feel that way? I've never thought about it. To be honest, I have a really hard time figuring out where I sit.

54:46Yeah, true. I understand. And it's so hard. to comprehend that I've gotten to a point now where I'm like, I don't know. And thank God I don't know. Sure. Yeah. It's better not to know. But I definitely did. It was funny. Like, it's funny when people recognize me from that. Totally. And I'm like, that's so random. Yeah. Like, that's so random. It's great, though. There was a moment, like a signal for us during that time. Jack Harlow was on Fallon. and Fallon's talking to him about it. And he goes, you had this great moment with Emma, Emma Chamberlain. Not like YouTuber Emma Chamberlain, not fashion icon or this or that.

55:31It was just Emma Chamberlain. And that to me was a signal of like, oh, okay. I didn't even think of it like that. Her name is perhaps the only descriptor that is needed. So she must be somewhat post-YouTube, post-platform. She is sort of accepted into that world. We have a map of where you stand. Thank God. You don't need a map. We've been charting. We just chart it every day. We're like, this is where Emma is now. Upstairs, we'll show it to you. It's always evolving. Thank God. I think, too. Right now with this, you've just shifted a little bit back. You're back on YouTube, so you're kind of like, you're coming back down.

56:06You may be at VidCon next year. I don't know. You have to really hit Paris Sashley hard next season because things are fine. I think too like diversifying where I'm present has really made it now impossible to like I wonder if too I've just made it impossible like because it's like well she randomly has a coffee company although it's not random but it to a random onlooker it would be random and then she has a podcast and then she posted on YouTube six months ago but she has quite a few subscribers there. Why is she not posting there? Is this her job? Like what's her job? What is her job? And then she does red carpet interviews.

56:50Yeah. And there's no descriptor that can encapsulate at all. And you show up on a Vogue video or you show up like in these environments that are, yeah. I'm like a little bit of everywhere. Yeah, yeah. And I love that. Like, I love that because I'm just doing a little bit of everything that I enjoy, which I think is what I need right now, too. It's what I need right now as I'm figuring out what I want to creatively. How much do you look at the, like, when we were on the phone, you were explaining that your mind works like an agent and a publicist. So as like a creative person, how much do you zoom out and look at the Emma Chamberlain brand from a macro perspective and craft it?

57:42Like how aware are you of what you're crafting with the brand itself? Not with the individual, you know, you're creative directing a photo shoot or you're making a YouTube video. Like looking at the brand of Emma Chamberlain and strategically going, I'm going to do that. I'm not going to do that. I'm going to do this because that'll signal that. Like, what are you thinking about when it comes to the brand? My number one priority for me is integrity. It comes down to integrity. And there are things that, like, I do not do something that doesn't matter. Money does not matter. Does not matter. I do not care.

58:27I which is an absolute I mean that's a blessing and it's not like but at this point you know when it comes to sort of curating what I'm doing I can't you have to choose between I would say money and integrity in a way you can find a balance too. You can actually find a balance. So I take that back. How do I want to put this? As my own, actually I'm not my own agent, Allie would be like, Emma, what the fuck? She's like, what the hell? Here's what I did. But I know what you're saying. Because again, we have the same agent for people who don't know. Yes, we do share an agent. She's the best. The best.

59:18She's the best. But we also, that is a relationship that you're collaborative in. Like, you know, like it's, it's not a one-sided relationship. You are a big part of that relationship. What you say yes to, what you say no to, what you even ask her to go find you, you know, like she has to understand your psyche so well to bring you opportunities and even to represent you in the market. So yes, I understand. Like, I feel like that on our behalf of like, I'm, I'm the agent with Allie. Yes. like I think overall for me

1:00:00I try to do things that I'm like, this is cool. It's simply that. This feels like something I would do for free. You can't ever say that on a phone call, though. You can't go. Oh, my God. I know. Retract that. I love this. Cut that out. Wow. Allie's like, Emma, what are you doing? I love this opportunity. Do you mind if we just do this one for free? Yeah, literally. Literally. You know how I was like a phrasing? We heard her on Colin and Samir. She said if she says yes, like she just wants to do it. Yeah. Literally every deal moving forward. Yeah. My rate just went down a lot. But it should feel obvious.

1:00:43Like, oh my God. Obviously I want to work with them because I'm a genuine fan or like I've actually, I've discovered, I've discovered things through brand deals. Like my favorite sheets right now that I'm wearing. That was a podcast ad read. Sheets that you're wearing, did you say? Sheets that are in my bed. That was not what I meant to say. I was like, I don't know. I don't know what is in on fashion right now. Maybe you're wearing sheets. I don't know. The bed sheet is super in this season. Got it. My bed sheets right now got sent to me because it was like a potential ad read. They're my favorite sheets I've ever had.

1:01:13Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm with you. I understand. You know what I'm saying? We discover these things. But I think ultimately, like at this point, I, I want it to be so organic and so like, like an obvious yes. What does like, because when you bring up the, when I watch you do brand deals now and you work with brands, it's done in such a different fashion than, you know, what, what we do, which is typically, you know, an integration on our YouTube channel. you know maybe there's some social content or short form content but when you do it it's it's almost like I don't even know how it's done it's done in such a different way you mean like the canon yeah canon was super cool there's even like Lancome or like some of the other beauty brands that you work with it's done more in like a just association way where it's like we are associated with Emma Emma is you know part of this you know this thing we're doing I don't even know how to explain it.

1:02:16It's like intangible. Um, it's, it is a different, it's, it's more, now it's more like almost like campaigns in a way. Like it's more like campaign based. I feel like there's more creativity in it a lot of times. Like for example, let's say I have to do an Instagram post for Longcomb. Or I don't have to, I get to. I get to do a cool

1:02:52photoshoot vibe. Not photoshoot, but I get to do... Let's say I'm taking my own content. I now get to have fun creating an image that's going to not only be cool to me where I'm like, this is a cool image, Like I'd pin this on Pinterest or something, but also it also displays the product in a way that's through my lens. And getting that opportunity is so much more fun for me. You know, YouTube integrations are great too, but they can be tough because it can be hard to add your own sort of personality into it. Do you know Drew Gooden? Yeah, of course. The best fucking ad reader. I mean, he like – Hilarious.

1:03:36He makes me feel like shit about every brand deal I do because I'm like, that is. That's a real area where I am very envious. When I watch a creator, we were watching Colt Kerwin do his OnePlus for a phone. And like, he's just so seamless and it's so calm and relaxed and it fits in the video. Cody and Noel are like that too. Yeah, totally. Cody and Noel on TMG, I mean, they just sometimes make fun of the brand. Yes. And you're like, how are they getting clearance on that? Yeah, I was following for Colin. I was like, did the brand approve this? Or are they just like, you know what you're buying.

1:04:10Like, it's us. It's Cody and Noel. And it makes it way more memorable when you hear them do it. Well, and also like, now that the fourth wall has been broken and everybody knows how ad reads work, whether you're in the space or not. Yeah. It's almost like, I think people who aren't even, who don't work in our space would hear an ad read like that and be like, that's iconic like they let them say this yeah and the best companies you know yeah yeah the best brands are super open to that yeah because they're like yeah just deliver it it's so much better to be like self-aware because you're so right every audience member knows what a brand deal sounds like they know where it is like you can't fool them into it if like here you are like no it's just is what it is i think brands are gonna have to shift up the way that they do brand deals soon on YouTube, especially.

1:05:00Yeah. I think on podcasting, there's something weird and I do it because I have on my podcast. I do ad reads. Yeah, of course. I mean, I though, as a consumer of podcasts, I don't skip ads. I don't know why. Really? Yeah. I think it's just, I like the host and maybe cause I'm in this business and I want to hear how the host is delivering it. But the amount of products I've purchased from a podcast ad. Yeah, actually me Me too. Like I trust podcasters so much when it comes to products that I'm, when they deliver it with like honesty, it's just like, yeah, okay. I'd give that a try. Sure. You didn't add me for adult Legos.

1:05:39And I'm like, I'm so close. I have one right now in my garage that I can't wait to start. Yeah. It's like, see, but that's the thing about podcasting too. It's like, and YouTube too. It's such a different way of doing collaborations with brands because it's much more short term a lot of times. Yeah, true. Sometimes you'll do like a year long sort of thing where it's like doing four videos for X over the course of the year. And that's more of a campaign sort of style of doing things. But it's very different. It's a very different way of working with brands because it's short-lived.

1:06:25It's much more like getting the word out. Yeah, I really like it, actually. Also, typically the products are super cool and you want them, right? Always. Yeah, they're like consumable or they're just nice products. Yes. I think everything's also more comfortable without visuals. if there's not a visual it's just like I don't know visuals sometimes get in the way and I think it's why they get really awkward on YouTube because you have to pair a visual with every single moment and you're watching this creator who even if they want to be doing it they just interrupted for the most part their story like whatever they were doing they interrupted it that was why I had a really hard time with doing like as much as it was really hard to fit in brand deals into into my videos at a certain point.

1:07:15Cause I was like, I don't want to, I don't want to stop this. It's like, if you, I didn't want to stop the flow. Like it really. And the numbers get, you know, absurd for, for someone who starts out and is not making any money. And then you get offered large sums of money and you're like, and I know how to do that. Yeah. It's not like a problem you don't know how to solve. It's like someone presents you a problem that you know how to solve for a large sum of money. It almost feels ridiculous to say no, especially if you have any level of fear with the career of that it might end. Then you're like, how dare I say no?

1:07:58Right? And I think it comes down to not like who's going to pay the most, this, this, and that, but rather who can you combine worlds with? at a time, you know, this is obviously, this is more for, this is not like referring to my podcast, right? Like the ad reads that I do there, it's much, it's a much different transaction. It's, it's, I like the product. I'm going to do a 60 second read. That's it. Yep. That's it. And I'll talk about why I like it and it'll be whatever, but it's, it's very different. The partnerships with like, with Longcombe or Levi's or Ritzy are, you know, it's so different because it's more like, yeah, we're like, it's longer term and we're, we're kind of collaborating in a way.

1:08:52They have to become a character in your universe. Yeah. That, especially with an audience like yours where the relationship is similar to a friendship. I also like to feel like I can bring something to the table for them too. You know what I mean? like not only do I love them as they are but also how can I get involved behind the scenes how can I like how can we do something together yeah how can I bring more than just an introduction to my audience yeah yes but baseline it needs to be like this is a brand that I think is cool and like I how much has that changed over the years like I'm very curious about your relationship with money.

1:09:33And the reason why is, so I'm a Michael Chamberlain YouTube viewer. I watch his YouTube channel. That's your dad. And I've heard you talk about your dad before and your relationship with your dad. And I think about growing up the kid of an artist and the viewpoint on creative work and then the incredible complexity to commercializing creative work and monetizing creative work. And then that paired with a potential feeling of like an absence of money or scarcity of money to then in abundance, like that is a lot of transformation and a lot of different things going on. What was that journey for you like from, you know, growing up with, with your dad being an artist to then monetizing your craft at the scale that you've done it?

1:10:29it has been such a fascinating, I'm glad, I don't know if I've ever, I don't remember. I'm excited to get into this. Growing up, I felt,

1:10:45I grew up around a lot of wealthy kids. You know, a lot of kids who have parents that work in technology. Technology, I grew up in the Silicon Valley, a lot of money. I'm the child of an artist and a single mom. Very different situation. And I always, I was so jealous. I mean, so deeply, deeply jealous. I also saw myself as less very much so because I was not up to speed with the other kids. In retrospect, I had such a fortunate childhood. It's unfortunate that my environment didn't allow me to see that. Again, when you're like 12 years old, how can you—I can't be mad at myself. How was I supposed to sort that out?

1:11:49It's interesting.

1:11:54The second I started making my own money on YouTube, which was something that I didn't expect, by the way, I turned on AdSense because I was like, obviously, like, maybe I'll make 200 bucks one day over the course of the next six months. I think it's like 200 bucks and then you can cash it out, right? I don't know. I don't remember. We took a really long time to turn on AdSense because we were very inspired by Casey Neistat. Yes. We thought it was like a brand power move. He didn't have AdSense on for like his first 100 million views and we were like, that's cool. We're not going to turn on AdSense.

1:12:28I remember that too. But his was just like, he didn't, he wasn't, I don't know, he just didn't do it. And we thought that was so cool. I know. We just took the wrong cue. We're not going to monetize it. Yeah. Yeah. And then we just like struggled. I know. So AdSense is like, I mean, in the beginning before you're, you can make a living off of AdSense before you do brand deals. That's what I did for so long. I didn't take brand deals for a very, very long time. I was very against it at first, actually.

1:12:59And I mean, I started making money on AdSense quicker than I anticipated. You know, it just happened so fast. And it was my first time making money. and very quickly by age 17 I was able to move out on my own dime and I suddenly had financial freedom I could go and buy myself things if I wanted but I was

1:13:35I realized very, very quickly that it did not improve my life. And in fact, the amount of money that my family had growing up was enough to be happy because I had all of the things that I needed. I had everything I needed for school. I had a roof over my head. I had food. I had multiple options in my closet. Like it was like I had a great, everything, I had it already. Because I did research on this later down the line and like money only makes you happy to a point. I was already at that point growing up. I had no idea. It typically represents something. Like the desire for money represents something.

1:14:25Mm-hmm. and we rarely develop the relationship with the term enough. Basically never, right? I actually don't even know if I've told you this, but two weeks ago I stopped at a gas station to get gas, and I walked in because, like, the thing was broken, and I bought three lottery tickets, and I've never bought a lottery ticket in my life. No. Why? And I bought three of the, like, Powerball ones where, like, the prize was, like, a billion dollars. It was at a billion. It was a billion dollars. It was unbelievable. I saw that. It was a night where I was just feeling stressed. And like the reality is, and I've written about this.

1:15:06I'm a big like journaler. And I've written about this concept of buying a lottery ticket when you've already won the lottery, right? Like where I have my dream job. I have an amazing wife. I have a great family. Like I feel so grateful. But I went out and bought a lottery ticket. Yeah. That's crazy. Yeah, but I get it. There's a level of escapism to what you connect to this large sum of money. And then to bring that back to like being a YouTube creator, I think what's interesting is like you have your foot on the gas pedal. Right. Like you can. It's not chance. Every day you have the option to get more of it.

1:15:48And I think that is a again, that is something that can haunt you if you don't have a relationship. Like how quickly did you recognize that you had enough? It was almost instant, if I'm being honest. It was very fast. And. Do you remember the first like AdSense check you got that you were like, oh shit, that's like, do you remember the amount? Oh, that's such a good question. I mean, I think, you know, cashing out my first one ever, which was maybe like$200 was crazy. But I think once I hit, I don't know, my parents were, they could not believe their eyes when it was 10 grand in a month. I mean, that's crazy.

1:16:39They were like, what the fuck is going on? And I was like, I don't know. And I say the F word in my videos. So how the hell, I don't, like. And I didn't really talk to anyone about it. It's just there. It just, they just sent it to me. That was when they were like, okay, you, something's happening. They were like. You're 17 at the time? I think 16 at that point. 16 at that point. That's crazy. And it was like, maybe that one was at 17. But it was definitely, I mean, again, my dad is an artist. He doesn't need a lot of money. He doesn't care about making a lot of money. He cares about creatively fulfilling himself and also living a good life.

1:17:31So having time outside of work to go and live a fulfilling life, right? And we have such a great relationship because he had the time to develop that with me. A lot of my friends, their parents worked so much. That's how they made so much money. They didn't have deep connections with their parents. I did. It was very, it all happened very fast where I realized, okay, it's not about, like, money's not going to do it. Money's not going to do it. I've already reached a point where I'm comfortable. I already like I'm comfortable enough where it's not going to I don't know I don't know but yeah I it was pretty immediate.

1:18:20Time wealth is a thing that comes you know it's interesting because for me that concept has come a lot more now after I feel like I've achieved the internal validation of making money you know like that was something that was absent from our creative journey for years, right? Money was not abundant for us. It was like, if we could make 800 bucks, we would do whatever it took to do that, right? Out of our creativity. But as it started to become more abundant and even like the understanding of how to make it, then you reestablish relationship. And I think even just going back to buying that lottery ticket, which I didn't win, unfortunately.

1:19:02Yeah, I actually - I had a feeling, but I didn't want to say that. The winning ticket was sold in California in Kern County. That's exciting enough. Yeah, which felt, unfortunately, just like a signal that maybe I should buy another one. I don't know. But what I realized as I was thinking about it was I was like, oh, I'm chasing time wealth. You know, like money wealth is great, but you assume that those two things are connected. Yeah. Right? You assume that like if I make a ton more money, then I'll have a ton more time, I think. But those are not directly connected. That's like a choice that you have to make of what's your value system from, okay, if I make this money, then what – do I want more of it?

1:19:44And maybe our YouTube brains teach us to look at numbers in a way that they should always be going up, right? Oh, yeah. Of course. It's like we are trained with these quantifiable metrics next to our success. There's two of them. We look at numbers on a screen all day. One is our viewership and subscribership and the other is our bank account or balance or whatever money is coming in. And those are just numbers on a screen that from the video game mindset of all of this, it's like I just want – it's more fun when those go up. Well, can I tell you something that's insane? And I actually think that some people are going to tell me that this is very irresponsible because people could be stealing from me.

1:20:26I have an infrastructure in place in my life with a lot of checks and balances that allows me to never check my bank account. I have no idea how much money I have. I know what I can do and what I can't do, but I have no idea. And I have not looked in years. I have no idea. Wow. That's pretty wild. Yeah. That's wild. It's safe. I mean, technically, literally, I could be being stolen from. No, nobody. No, it's not that. Because there's literally layers and layers and layers and layers and layers of checks and balances. People in my family that are not, like my mom has her eyes. But then also my business manager.

1:21:18but then also like there's so many people that are. I think we have the same infrastructure. Yes. Right. But I have like, there's family ties in there that I trust too. It's like, there's so many layers so that I never have to look because I, number one, because I don't want to make, number one, I don't want to know. I don't need to, I don't need anything beyond what I have now. Like I have a house. I have a car. I can travel freely. That's enough. I don't need to go buy a yacht and a private jet and a helicopter. And I don't need to only own designer clothing. And I don't need, like, I don't want to know how much because I want to feel like I'm very frugal like I am very thoughtful about you know like my house is my splurge that is my splurge of my life like that is yeah that's it but like I don't know it can be easy to see like oh well this money is just sitting here let's put it to work why not one helicopter yeah but it's sense like i'd rather like that's really interesting do you see what i'm saying so it's i i'm living as though

1:22:58it's such an interesting it's like a game it's like a game i'm playing with myself almost yeah but i don't want to see like i don't need to know i'm i don't know that's fascinating that feels like a response on like a deal-to-deal basis though you know what's coming in yeah so So you have enough of a mind to be like, I'm fine. Oh yeah. Like I can buy coffee every day. I'm fine. Yeah. Which is like, yes. When I did this exercise of like, what, how much do I actually want to make? Cause you get into this career and you're like, I just want to make as much money as possible. Of course. And then that's just an open-ended kind of goal.

1:23:33That's kind of crazy. So I had to write it down. And when I wrote down what I like, what I spend money on every day and was really ambitious with that, it was so attainable. It was insane. I was like, I just want to get a coffee every day without guilt. I want to buy lunch every day without guilt. I want to live in a nice neighborhood and be able to pay rent or a mortgage there. And then I want to be able to travel. And I don't even travel that much. So I was like, this is pretty ambitious and it is super attainable. And that exercise, I think, is just so not done with us that I really would push a lot of creators to do that exercise.

1:24:10100 % because I'm fortunate that I've been able to figure out a way where I don't need to have my eyes on this total. Right? Like I don't, I know how much I am very involved in the negotiating of the deal. But after it's sealed, it's like I don't think about it again. We know your tactics. Yeah. Listen, I'll do this for free. Oh, yeah. Oh, no. We do not do this for free. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But, but, see, that's what's so funny about me. Like, I don't, I'm not doing things for free. Yeah. But also, there are things that I, I, like, do do for free. Like, with Chamberlain Coffee, I don't cash out of that.

1:25:01Like, I don't take a salary. I refuse. which is very, very lucky, you know? But it's like not everything that I do has to make me money, but some things have to make me money. Of course. And that's also your work, like your value as a brand. And again, as creators, sometimes you have self-worth issues, you know, and like your imposter syndrome when it comes to that. But that's what you've built. Like that is your business. I think though, like what you said about not letting money dictate ideas is really important. no matter what size of creator you are. And of course there are times where like money is going to dictate some of the idea as you're trying to pay your bills.

1:25:40But I do think it's really important, even if you're a smaller creator, like sometimes getting a job is the best way to actually become a professional creator. Totally. To like keep money out of the equation. Out of the creative equation. Out of the creative equation because that is actually everything. Like when you started, money was not in the equation and you were able to create something very unique that people couldn't get anywhere else. And that's where money came in. And you want to stay in that pocket just for your self-worth of trying to give people something they can't get anywhere else.

1:26:09And that's not going to be dictated by money. There's a few sort of things that have come up over the years where the money has been unusually well. Like, that's a lot. Yeah. and but but it was so it's so not me it's just not me and and you know there's always a little like ah like

1:26:47that's a lot like but then but I've gotten to a point now where and again this is a very fortunate place to be in but where I'm like you could raise that to you could triple it and I can't do it I just can't because I think the reason why I've been able to get to that point is because I know how it feels to stand firm and to only do deals that are right for me and my brand

1:27:23that is such a fulfilling feeling to me. And it's the only way to make brand deals feel fulfilling for me. It's also the best path to like a long career. Well, that too. Because there definitely are two ways. Like, you know, I don't judge those who are like, I'm going to cash out and get out. See, that was never an option for me though. I never was like cash out, get out. which is funny because I feel like I have the personality to cash out and get out because I wouldn't mind living a private life again at some point. So it's like, like that's not like my worst nightmare. That ship has sailed for the time being, right?

1:28:11I don't want to cash out. And I like, I feel excited about,

1:28:21staying in this general world for sure you know what i mean like i guess we could call it entertainment but this showbiz it's showbiz yeah it's showbiz baby i don't think i can ever oh man i'm i am listen things may change where i'm at may change but unfortunately or fortunately i'm still trying to figure out i am i'm in showbiz like i can't get out yeah Yeah, you're in it. You're trapped. And it's also, by the way, for a creative person, it's fun. Like your canvas just changes. Yes. And that's okay. That's exactly it. Right? Like your canvas, I feel like for me watching you and as a fan of yours, like I've watched your canvas change to, you know, fashion and photography.

1:29:07And, you know, even the way that you portray Chamberlain Coffee is very different than what it used to be. Yeah. Right? And I looked at one of your photo shoots you did, and there's like this shot of you with all the cups around you. And I was like, that's cool. I'm really into photography. I would love a canvas to express my vision when it comes to photos. Totally. And I used to do that with my dad's clothing company and get involved in the photo shoots there. But I was like, oh, that's cool. I can't wait for us to drop another capsule of merchandise because I'd like to. Yes. Do some photography stuff.

1:29:47Totally. And I think that is the thing of like the exciting part of getting to do all this is you get to shift these canvases. And I don't doubt that we'll see something if you want to see something directed by you like a film at some point or written by Emma Chamberlain. Like I think that is just a shift in canvas. Absolutely. Would you ever act? I have always, always, always, always said no. and been like, well, not said no, maybe. Did I say no? I don't know. Like, wait, shit, I'm in the movie. It sucks when you say everything publicly because then if you recall wrong, you're like, well, she's a liar.

1:30:25I always have thought no. But weirdly, as I'm growing up, I'm realizing that it's something that could be creatively fulfilling for me in the sense that I am obsessed with analyzing people. It's all I think about. It's all I do. Like it is, I mean, it's a lot of, I do a lot of it on my podcast. Like I'm analyzing people and personalities. And I mean, I call my parents once a day and analyze someone. Like I'm always analyzing someone. Like, well, they're really interesting. Are you scared now? I know you should be. Which one of us is going to get to be analyzed? You know, that's. Do you want to be an ally?

1:31:11It might start as you both as a duo. It could be us as a duo, yeah. The dynamic duo, but then it's like in a week or two. It could be one of us. Who knows? Now it's all I'm thinking about is which one of us is going to be on the parent call. It'll only be good things. It'll be like, how are they so stable? Where did that come from? But I'm open to the idea now. Only because I actually really do think it would be like cathartic to not be myself. Oh, interesting. Like I think it would be like really fun to be someone else. Have you done acting or – because I'm in improv class right now. Yes. Improv 201.

1:31:59and I just did my first class of the session on Sunday night and I kind of can't believe that I'm willing to go there. I don't blame you. In some of these, like, I mean, I was so expressive as other characters and I was recognizing that I struggle alone with a camera. Yeah. I really do. And I like, that's a lot of why this format came to be because it was like, I can be myself when I'm looking at someone. I can be myself when I'm not so aware that there's a camera. But when I'm looking down the lens of a camera, it's hard for me. And when I'm in this class, it lets me explore the bounds of what else I have from an expression.

1:32:43Yes. Have you tried it? I've done.

1:32:52It's so interesting. Like, I've done, I just did a, like, sort of a commercial for Warby Parker. I don't think it's out. It will be out. That's cool. Well, because I did a collection with them. I designed a glass. Oh, you did? I'm wearing them. Oh, wow. This is one pair. Wait, do you, was, they had a frame called the Chamberlain. I know, and that's a total coincidence. Oh, that was just total coincidence? Total coincidence. Wow, that's dope. That's a cool partnership. Did you act in the commercial? So, basically, yeah, I, like, vaguely acted in this commercial. and wait you're wearing the Warby these are from the collection I am a I'm wearing contacts right now I'm a glasses wearer I have you need the Warby collection I'll send you all of them I need the Emma Chamberlain Warby collection obviously yeah wait that's amazing they look great they're my favorite I mean I've been wearing Warby Parker Colin also has a lot of glasses at home yeah he doesn't need them but he just has them I want to be a glass person honestly can I be honest these are not I do need readers but these are not even these are just for the house is all I needed because I've just been having this dilemma of like, can I really wear glasses?

1:33:57Yes. And I've been buying all of these reading glasses and blue light glasses. Say it, just be like, it's for blue light. I'm protecting my circadian rhythm. You just gave me permission. I'd like to speak to all of my, you know, contact in glasses wear, people with bad eyes because I've had glasses since I was three years old. I have always dreamed of what it's like to wake up in the morning and just see. Look, the grass is always greener. I've always dreamed. What would it be like if I could wake up and have an excuse to wear glasses? And you just couldn't see anything? Yeah. It's insane that we just like, what a crazy thing that as human beings, there's some of us that just can't see.

1:34:35I know. Without like, and then who came up with, this is a total tangent, but who came up with this stuff? Like what's in my eyes right now? Yeah. How did they come up with this? Contacts are crazy. They're crazy. They are crazy. It's like really, honestly, talk about life-changing tech. Totally. That's really some of our best work. I don't think we marvel enough about context. Because what if someone didn't come up with that? AI things come out left and right, but like context. Context. What if someone just didn't, whatever they decided that that innovation wasn't necessary. Oh my God. What would I do?

1:35:05I think about that sometimes. You would wear Chamberlain glasses. No, but what if there was no glasses? Like no one figured out that if you just like do this thing to glass that we can now see. Like what if no one figured that out? It's really, it's frightening. Yeah. Well, thank God for the Warby Parker Chamberlain Clock. Now everything's making sense. No, I can see clearly. Yeah, and you can too. Out on November something, don't remember, I forgot. This whole thing is just an ad. It's just an ad. So this is how I do my brand deals now. A whole interview is to lead to this. Okay, so anyway, warbyparker.com.

1:35:43Where were we? We were talking about acting. Oh, acting. So I acted in this commercial. It was so fun. Like even though it was like literally like a 60 second commercial, it was fun. And I liked being like a little bit of a character. And I mean, listen, I would never want to get hired for a job because I already have a career elsewhere. and like there's, you know, oh, she has Instagram followers. Like maybe I would never, I would refuse to take a job. Just because of that. I don't want to be an actor to a point where I would do it just to do it. Like I would want to make sure that I'm genuinely right for this role and there's no other variable.

1:36:33You don't want to feel like the integration in the movie. Yes, no. Like I would want to genuinely act and like blend in and nobody would notice. Like that's the only way I would ever do it. and we'll see it might never happen it might happen i i mean i i do have a craving to be more behind the scenes in in yeah you know but i think you need like because i have that craving too but i think you need or what i want is the empathy for all the different roles and i think again the mind of a youtube creator is like you're making the programming decision you're coming up with the idea you're editing you're in it you're the talent so when we talk to each other we can understand every step of it, even the thumbnail creation and like every step of it, we understand the pain points.

1:37:15And if I was involved in a movie, I don't think I could comfortably be involved unless I understood the honest pain points of every piece of it. And that's like, I don't know how you do that, but maybe it's just from sitting with the people, but acting or being on camera is one of the things that I think I would have to get intimately involved in. Yeah, it's true. It's like the best I mean I think a lot of really great directors they were actors. Yeah for sure because it's the only way you can yeah that makes total sense. Yeah. Did you do theater at all in high school? No. No. I didn't either.

1:37:50You didn't either right? No but that is a whole I did theater up until I changed schools and then when I was at this school I was just like I need a new thing and I was very into theater. Like my brother and I both had agents when we were kids. We were in a... So L.A. It was super L.A. I'm obsessed. We didn't both have agents. My brother had an agent and I piggybacked. You're like born with an agent. Totally. And I piggybacked. We have our head shots as kids in my parents' house, which I can put on screen right now. We were in a Hanes commercial which was a big thing. My brother was auditioning for this Disney thing and then we had a falling out with his agent.

1:38:32It was super L.A. Was it like all over the trades? No, but we were all over the trades for another thing. It's another tangent. But my brother and I were in a Bollywood slash karate dance duo. And we would perform all through LA. And we got ripped apart by a news publication at one point saying that we were overhyped. Yeah, it was a whole. Overhyped? Yeah. And that's why you do what you do. And that's why I do what I do. That's why you're here. Because now. Oh. You show that trade. Yes. Yeah, but I've never heard of that type of performance. so you were definitely not good at the time. You were one of one.

1:39:07We were one of one. Way ahead of its time. We were one of one. They just didn't understand you. So, yes, I was like, if I could go back, I would have gone all in on theater, but like my understanding of, again, it comes back to what we talked about in the beginning. Your relationship to how the opposite sex or whoever you desire, desires you, like that relationship informs everything. I felt like I had to play sports. Yeah, me too. Like I looked at the like kids who were in theater. I was so envious. Yeah. And it looked cool, but I couldn't do it. I know. Even though I was like five, five and a hundred pounds.

1:39:41I was like, no, like I am an athlete. Yeah. And you will see me as an athlete. I got to lift weights. I got to kind of be macho. And like theater is awesome and I love theater, but I just have to leave it behind now. Yeah. I remember when I did, I did improv last year for the first time. And I also couldn't believe I was like these characters, what's coming out of me is absurd. and it's so fun and it's so freeing. And I couldn't believe that I had never done it in high school. I know. Well, honestly, the thing about, like, this is, there was so long when I rejected the idea of me being an actor.

1:40:16And the reason for that was I'm a YouTuber first and there's a lot of stigma around the transition. And I understand that because I think a lot of this, I'm having an epiphany. This is great. I think a lot of YouTubers try to transition into traditional forms of entertainment because they don't feel like they've made it yet. That's what it is. It's like, yeah, I haven't made it yet. My career is not set in stone. I need to go and, you know, I need to go and make music. I need to go and, you know, I need to go do those things or else I haven't made it yet.

1:41:08I don't have that. Like, I don't have that. I don't care about that. If I were to ever go and act, it would be to fulfill a creative desire. Like, oh, it would be so fun to fully embody this character and I feel like it's something I can do well and it's to add to a film that I believe in. That's it. Like, and I think that that's the only way that you can do it where it makes you feel.

1:41:41I think that that's the only way that it can work. Yeah. Right? Yeah. I don't know. Yeah, but it's all just whatever. It's all just whatever. And we just live in this ambiguous world of what is making it mean? What does any of it mean? Well, that's the problem. What are the bounds of what you can and can't do? If you do it and you like it enough to keep doing it, the narrative around it, it's like, whatever. True. I mean, I think... Oh, but you would get judged hard. Oh, yeah, no matter what. If you did it 100%. Oh, my God. But there's a point where you do it long enough, if you like it enough, where people are like, okay, yeah, she's an actor, whatever.

1:42:20Yeah, whatever. The only way I'd ever do it is that I would have to be genuinely really good at it. See, but it's hard to just test it out. I mean, yeah, you can take classes and stuff, but being on set and how you're edited, it's all out of your control. But I've come to terms with the fact that I need to do what will creatively fulfill me. And I cannot care about what anyone's saying around me about it. And what I've noticed is when I do that and I honor that, it usually ends up going better than I would expect. It's when you make a choice based on the status that it'll bring you, the money that it'll bring you.

1:43:18Weirdly, the audience feels that. They can feel that. like if I were to go and be in a movie because that wasn't even a good fit and I maybe even like gaslit the director and the casting director to be like well but I have Instagram followers so you should put me in and then they put me in and it's like not a good fit and everything's forced and everything's like it's clearly me trying to force something else to happen

1:43:48the audience feels that and will shit on it is that to say that they won't shit on something that's genuine and like a real passion yeah of course they will but do you agree with that like i feel like when a lot of times they can feel it i think you also are searching for like that was shit right i'm just saying like when you do something that's not aligned with you you're kind of like okay show it to me show it to me you open youtube studio or like instagram and you're like where is it where is it and you You just fly right past the like, this was awesome. And you're like, there it is. Yep. There it is.

1:44:25I knew it. They knew it. She sold out. Yep. I did. I did sell out. And I did. And I did. Yeah. And you like, you're searching for that validation of what you know. Cause like you said it, like it's very, it can, for anyone who's watching the show to be like, okay, so like, how do I do what Emma did? And you're like, well, it was my intuition. That's the truth. You just kind of, and you kind of like, just let that guide you. And then at the same time, I think you have to develop a relationship with whatever the craft is that you enjoy the process of doing the craft, not the outcome that comes from the craft.

1:44:58Right. And if you're in that like enjoyment of the practice or the craft, then some of those outcomes, those ups and downs you can deal with. And you're very aware of when the practice is like uncomfortable and they're like, ah, that's not it. You just made such a great point that resonated with me. You have to enjoy the practice of doing it. And that got really hard for me with YouTube because everything about it was so isolating for me. My specific, the way that I did things was very isolating. I filmed everything mainly by myself. I would have loved to make more things with my friends, but it gets a little bit complicated to be including friends in videos when it becomes really public.

1:45:43Not everybody wants a public life like that. Not everybody wants to be in a video, right? Or the inverse. Someone really wants to be in a video. Yeah, and that's also a bad sign. And that's a bad sign. All the people that you want in your video, unfortunately, they're the ones that don't want to be in your video. But that's why they're good to have in your video. So it's like, good luck. Even if that person is neutral about it, the audience will develop a relationship with that person and want them in the video. And then you stop being friends with them, and then it's like, okay, well, what now?

1:46:12They get harassed for months. Like, why aren't you in Emma's videos anymore? And it's like, that's not fair to them. So I've, you know, started to protect people more and not include them in things as much.

1:46:32You know, editing the videos too. Like, I mean, I had a phase where I had an editor, but for the majority of my career thus far, I've been editing my videos. And I went back to it again for that like more emo phase where I started editing my own again. Anyway, but like I don't enjoy working alone anymore. I like working with people. I do think my podcast works because it's much more inside. Like my like comfy Emma time is writing my outlines. now for my podcast. That works. I'm alone anyway a lot, so it works. But it's like, I don't like being on camera alone anymore as much. What about for the pod?

1:47:23Because you are, the one thing I really thought about when it came to your podcast was the addition of video and how much the addition of video changes the creative process and the creative practice of podcasting. It absolutely does. We've done it. Look at us. We used to do this just as an audio show. It was a very different show. That's a different show. Or it felt very different without video. I do think from a completely creative perspective, I record a better episode when there's no video. Yeah, for sure. Same. Yeah. It's the lights. I've started to wear sunglasses when I record because it mimics the feeling because it's dark.

1:48:08I can't explain it, but it mimics the feeling of recording with no video. Interesting. But I like video because I love watching video podcasts. I feel more connected to it, so I completely understand it, and so that's why I do it. Part of me is like, God, why did the industry make that shift? I actually think, I really think the long term, it'll probably shift back. Because I think the content's ultimately better. It's better. And the stickiness with the audience when you're just in their ear. And obviously there's people who listen to the show. And we don't put the video on Spotify or Apple Pods.

1:48:55Not yet, but we don't. And a bit of it is intentional to be like, if you're an audio listener, you're just an audio listener. Totally. And that's okay. and like the relationship I have with people I listen to and just listen to is way deeper so deeper because you have to like you're envisioning them of like how they're speaking and how they're interacting and I don't even sit quietly and talk to my best friend or my mom for that long and just listen to them in my ear so my relationship with podcasters is way deeper than almost anyone in my life. I think they're also just giving you a better, more vulnerable, more open, more real version of themselves.

1:49:36I almost only consume, like for my entertainment, I mainly consume podcasts. Because I usually consume my entertainment throughout the day. In between. And I can't sit, it's so much effort to sit and watch something. right like not effort but it it uses way more senses like you can't do it well like you can do it while you're doing other things but yeah i listen to a podcast if i'm like doing the dishes for the laundry cleaning up and it's very enjoyable for me i also fall asleep to them a lot too who are you falling asleep to yeah huberman lab okay andrew huberman god he came out of nowhere you I know he didn't, but he did.

1:50:21Right? Yeah. But I love him for falling asleep because he's so, his voice is so gentle. I take whatever he says as gospel. Me too. The other day. We're getting up. It's the second it sends out. We're out. I'm like staring into the sun. I've been doing that. It's also such a flex that in the beginning of his episodes, he's like, look, this has nothing to do with my work as a professor at Stanford. And they're like, okay. He said this thing about the ideal. Oh, at Stanford. Okay. It has nothing to do with what I do outside of this as a professor at Stanford. There's this thing he said. I'll believe anything you said.

1:51:00Anything. There's this thing he said about the ideal human week when it comes to movement and exercise. I need to listen to that one. And one of them was like, you need to do hardcore sprints once a week. Really? And that was me reestablishing a relationship with Barry's boot camp and deciding that. You already know that I have a relationship with Barry's. Yes, with Barry. Yeah, with Barry. But I sprint so hard in that class because I think of what he said and I'm like, he was like, we're like animals and we need to be able to sprint. And I was like, yeah, Andrew, I'm in. Dr. Huberman, I'm in.

1:51:38I'm into that, whatever that is. I'm like overwhelmed with things you have to do right now. Like sprinting, things like that. Like I feel like, like things like that. Like the fact that like, okay, now I need to like, I need to sprint. You need to be sprinting, dude. You do need to be sprinting. You do need to be sprinting. Exactly, I'm not sprinting. Like I need a version of berries that's not just like the sprinting and the weightlifting. Give me everything. It's called double floor. Like make it an hour, make it an hour longer and just like, let's hit the checklist. Let's do it all. We all go outside, stare into the sun, put our feet in the grass.

1:52:07Yeah, exactly. Give me it all because I can't keep track. Me either. It's a lot. Why did you delete TikTok? Oh. Or delete your TikTok? OMG. Because during the pandemic, I found your TikTok to be very comforting. I don't know. It was a very weird era of time. It was so weird. It was so strange when it first started. So weird. And I remember watching your TikTok and it just made me feel normal. I'm so glad to hear that. And I'm not sure. be deleted. Yeah. Talk to me about like your relationship with short form vertical content. Cause you don't really make any of it now. And it is the, the, the format of the moment across platforms, right?

1:52:51I'm not opposed to short form content. I mean, it's not like something that I'm super stoked about because I think I'm just able to be more creative personally with long form. I mean, I think vine was a good example of short form content being an incredible test of creativity for some. A lot of people really blossomed in that environment. TikTok's the same way. I became dangerously addicted to TikTok where like I'm at the gym. I'm like literally like lifting a weight with one arm, like scrolling with the other. I'm walking on the treadmill. I realized that it was infecting my brain with not only too much information, but also like a lot of bad information.

1:53:37Information meaning not like about the news, but just information. Like somebody saying, well, I just spent this much money on this thing and I don't regret it. And then the next thing being like, ladies, you want that man to love you? listen up kidnap his mom okay stay with me I know it's crazy but stay with me like that it's like and then the next one's like play hard to get here's how the next one's like this is the new diet that you should be on it's like everything is like information that I do not need it was all toxic all toxic telling me how to live my life telling me what to buy telling me what to think Like it was taking over my brain.

1:54:32And what I realized was not only is this destroying my mental health as a user, but also I have nothing to add on this platform. I have nothing meaningful to add here. And it was around the time that I started to really prioritize providing some sort of value. Like I wanted there to be a bit more meaning. I'm not trying to be, I'm not Superman. I was getting hated on on there too. Like it felt like there was always some sort of like TikTok about me. That wasn't even necessarily negative always, but sometimes negative. But there was just a lot of chatter and it was all on my For You page about me.

1:55:19I could not handle it. It drove me insane. It drove me fucking insane. It's a strange experience. but also I think the algorithm was like oh this this is something that this person cares about she stayed on it for like a second longer so I started to get too much and I was like this is just like it was compound but it's also just I don't think it's healthy like I don't think it's healthy I don't think that there's a way to use it in a way that's healthy I don't think there is and this is a terrible you're gonna get no absence actually if I make this comparison but it's like the difference between like having like a little glass of wine YouTube and a line of Coke, TikTok.

1:55:58Sure. It's like, wow, that's different. Not that I've done Coke because I haven't, but it's, wow, that's different. You know what I'm saying? It's like, it's really, and there's no way to do TikTok in a way that's healthy. Reading a book is like drinking a cup of tea. Exactly. In that world. In our new world that we just made. I started thinking about the new substance spectrum of content. Yes. I don't even know what you said next. I was just there. So what were you talking about? I don't remember either. Now I'm there because I'm like, well, podcasting to me, that's like, that's actually very coffee to me.

1:56:34Because it's like a little caffeine, but it's like still like. It gets you inspired, gets you going. Maybe it's matcha, honestly. Oh, yeah. But matcha like sustains you. Depending on the podcast, though. I, by the way, drank all of your, or I mean, it's powder form. So I had to mix it with water. All of your Chamberlain matcha, the one with like the cute dinosaurs on it. Yeah. We had like the chocolate one and then like, but for me, I'm like a green matcha purist. I get it. Yeah, I get it. Very good. Thank you. Where does entrepreneurship sit with you in your world of being Emma Chamberlain? Like, and specifically as it pertains to Chamberlain coffee.

1:57:10Because again, when that started, I remember being like, we came up with like terminology around when you launched that. One was, what was it? Content product fit. which essentially meant that you do not need to change the content to integrate the product. Yes. Creators who do that. That's my like whole strategy. You just put a word to it. Done. Yes. Right. Yeah. So that, I mean, that's what we were, we recognized that look, we were like, wait, she was drinking this coffee before and then there's this one and the content didn't change. And now it's hers. And that was the beauty. That was like incredibly beautiful.

1:57:48You know, what, when it came to guys like us, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Thank you so much. That was a beautiful moment. But that, you know, today you don't really have like the same opportunity to integrate it as much. Yeah. But you are now like a, you know, you're a coffee entrepreneur and you, I will say that I, we drove by in Erwan when you were doing lattes. Oh my gosh. We're like, oh, we'll go. We'll go meet Emma and go check it out. It was around the block like four times and we're like, nope, okay. Not going to do that. We're going to go. Yeah. Not even going in for the hot bar. We're just out of here.

1:58:27Yeah. But like, what is your relationship to being an entrepreneur and being a, and to Chamberlain Coffee, the business? It doesn't feel like a brand deal in the sense where that, you know, like a brand's coming in and they have money and resources and, uh, in an already established sort of situation. And now I'm working with this brand and if it works out and it, and it's a successful collaboration, great. But if not, it's totally fine. They'll go on their merry way. I'll go on my merry way. They existed before they'll exist after I existed before I'll exist after. it's a very it's like I don't feel like like all of the work that I do for it is behind the scenes I'm fully in it this is not like my name is slapped on it at all and that would be a lot easier but it's not that way I'm trying Chamberlain Coffee to me is not like a merch line.

1:59:38And that's sort of been like a, you know, like a lot of people have been like, well, is this just sort of like, this is just Emma's merch. And that doesn't really happen as much anymore, but that was sort of something that was said in the beginning and understandably so. It's like, why is this kid coming out with coffee? And how the, and is she just doing this to capitalize on the fact that people know her as a coffee drinker that's where the idea started but it very quickly became like I love building a business like I love it like I love being involved I love the conversations with retailers like I love these like big board meetings where we're like discussing like this strategy and this strategy and we're like talking about why we should discontinue this product and not this product and how we can improve this product.

2:00:34Like I enjoy that piece of it the most. Like I've like developed a passion for that through doing this. And it's very much a part of my day-to-day life. Like it probably takes up.

2:00:5840 % of my working time. and then I'd say podcast is like another 40 and then I'd say 20 is like photo shoots and you know. Does that, what you just broke down, the 40, 40, 20, does that reflect how you make your money? No. How does that pie chart differ from that? Well, Chamberlain Coffee, I've only ever invested in it. So actually that's negative. so we got a nice 40 % yeah in the negative but I mean obviously you know you're building a business that follows different rules totally that follows different rules it's different because it's like this is not only is this just like genuinely something that I'm passionate about building but it's also yeah it is like a passion project almost and eventually you know who knows there are ways that I'm going to be able to make money from it at some point and I don't know if that's gonna be a lot.

2:02:04It might not. It quite literally might not. By the way, it could all go under tomorrow. We don't know. Like it's running a business is, nobody, it's pretty cutthroat out there. You know what I mean? Especially when you're fighting for shelf space. Oh yeah. Because you're in retail now. Like you are in stores and we talked to - Cutthroat. We talked to Jimmy about this. Oh, yeah. It's like open space. And those people aren't like, oh, welcome, Emma Chamberlain. Come on. They don't give a fuck. Take some of our shelf space. Like that is, and now you're in a business where like it is, you are taking someone's customer.

2:02:42Yeah. So that is like a different game. And we talked to Jimmy about this quite a bit with Feastables and the chocolate business. Or you look at what Logan is doing with Prime and like the hydration business. You guys are in cutthroat businesses that have legacy brands and old money and people who do not want their throne taken from them. The fact that a homegrown internet kid can do that is very empowering. So empowering. These three brands are the brands that everyone talks about when it comes to creator products. Chamberlain Coffee, Feastables, and Prime. We talk about those. The industry talks about those.

2:03:24Those are like the three. Chamberlain Gavi is definitely more indie and I love it. But when you raise money for it, it does introduce a new, somewhat of a new expectation for the people who invest in it. Oh, yeah. I mean, not somewhat. It introduces a new expectation. And that comes back to what we talked about of money being a creative partner in what you make. Yes, absolutely. You have to, as the creative, distance yourself and surround yourself with the right operators that you can be the creative. You can paint it as a cool, creative vision and then let the other people decide or figure out how it lives up to what it's supposed to from a capital perspective of how much money you raised.

2:04:08I would say like half the team is very creative minded and half the team is very like, this is a fucking business. We're going to make some fucking money if we can't. We're going to do this right, but we're also going to do this big. Let's do this as big as we can. So it's those two mindsets. My goal is to make Chamberlain Coffee a real brand that people like without me in the picture. Yeah. That's the goal. Of course. I don't want, I mean, I have an absolutely incredible head start because of my circumstances. And I am not, like, that is huge. That's the only reason why this was possible. But I do want it to have a life outside of me.

2:04:59Now, what's gut-wrenching about that is that it might not. Like, that's my goal. Yeah. But it might not. It might not. and that's the thing with anything entrepreneurial it is fucking cutthroat I nobody gives a fuck no one cares about your feelings in that world and there are so many people who want to do exactly what you're doing and there's almost no room to fuck up there's no room like it's like you get one shot at everything it feels like and again I might have a little bit more flexibility because there's a voice to speak to like but I will be honest like it is the root of a lot of my stress I mean it's expensive to do it it's exhausting it is it's nothing that I expected it to be I wouldn't take it back but also basically what I'm telling you is don't start a business yeah it's just more like it's so there's like an infatuation with the idea of any idea whether it's a video or um you know a startup there's an infatuation and a romance with the idea when it first arrives right yes there is and then you paint this vision of what your life could be together similar to when you meet someone you're romantically interested in absolutely the second you at least this is me as like a hopeless romantic growing up i would meet someone i'd be like amazing.

2:06:32This is what our kids are going to be like. And this is the family trips. Oh, I've almost gotten married three times. You know what I'm saying? I'm 22. Like it's not good. Yeah. So yeah, I go there with my ideas too. Right. I have an idea for a business and like the amount of domain names I own because it's a problem. Sometimes GoDaddy calls me and just thanks me for my business. Cause I also can't let them go. So I just renew them. I got a renewal bill that was just out of this world. And I looked at it and I was like, oh my God, those ideas are just... To be addicted to domain names is so niche.

2:07:10HawaiianShirt.Party? He's got it. I got it. He's got it. He's the guy. Yeah, I'm the guy. When Dot Party came up and I was like, cool, Party Hawaiian Shirts, that'll be the business. Yeah, I love that. I am like enamored by new ideas. Especially for the years where we weren't making any money with YouTube. It was like something else is going to hit. Alarm clocks. Let's start an alarm clock. get upright.com upright alarm clocks. Wake up. Right. Yeah. Oh, that's good. The amount of ideas are just, but I'm saying as a creator, when you're a creative person, you come up with the ideas and you're just like enamored by it.

2:07:44And then years. And if you have it in you to actually go years and years and years of the daily practice of being a business owner, then maybe it has a shot, but actually I can only tell you that it has a small percentage of making it. Well, that's the thing. Yeah. And that's the crazy thing. That's the crazy thing is that as a YouTube creator, you have the idea. You're enamored. You make it. You edit it. Maybe it takes two weeks. Maybe it takes three weeks if it's a hard video to edit. You put it out and you're like, okay, cool. What's the next idea? You can't do that with starting a business.

2:08:15No. You cannot do that. You are now in it. This is like my little preview to what marriage is going to feel like. You know what I mean? It's like, wow. Wow. It felt really good when we committed to each other. and now we're a few years in and well, that's different. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, that feels different. And then you're like, well, how do we bloom here? And then you do. Because I will say, like I have no regrets ultimately. Have I regretted it before? Yes, I actually have. Because it's been the hardest thing I've ever done. And whenever something's the hardest thing you've ever done, like it's crying it's like it feels like a marriage wow wow it is it is kind of like you know it's also why you have to pick your partners wisely wow yeah and that's tough too because hard to do yeah it's hard and like you know there again there are so many cooks in the kitchen and i mean the chamberlain coffee team is phenomenal and like you know they are incredible but there's there's so many personalities.

2:09:24It's never going to be perfectly smooth sailing. When you're working with that many people all on the same thing, it gets complicated. There's politics. You're also co-parenting this thing. Fully co-parenting. You're making something physical that just goes out into the world. Maybe it's good. It's fully being a parent. I'm not watching that thing during the day. God, it gets scary. Because I don't have my hands on everything. neither does our CEO or our CMO or whoever like we don't all have our hands on everything and as a control freak it's it's so tough it can be really tough for me because you know or if things go wrong it's like we all take the fall right yeah if one person makes a mistake.

2:10:20Y 'all take the fall, but your name's on it. You take a very different fall. Yeah. Very different. It's true. And I think sometimes that risk, because that level of risk is significant, but then you also have people who are working at the company and they're spending a hundred percent of their time. You're only spending, you're spending 40 % of your time on it, but you need an operator that understands that if they fuck up, it's your name. It's your name. It is also, in some situations, though, risky for the employees and the operators who get involved, too. Right, true. If I did something crazy and I shaved my head, and I'm on the front of People magazine, like nude, at Sunset Tower Hotel.

2:11:02Is that selling coffee? Yeah. Yeah. Probably would sell some coffee. Probably is. Because you're at Sunset Tower and it's like a radical Hollywood vibe? Yeah, I'm naked on Sunset Boulevard, but only holding a Chamberlain coffee cup and my head is shaved. Yeah. Okay. Big sales the next day. Big sales. Mark my word. Yeah, right. That's the next campaign. That's the next campaign. Glad we found that idea here. So chic. Okay, don't give me ideas. That would be kind of dope if someone recreated celebrity tabloid moments from the 90s as a campaign. I've almost done something like this. In fact, we have like we're going into I have kind of a similar idea.

2:11:46It's different. it's less edgy but it's similar you'll see wow it's not gonna be that big of a deal it's just gonna be kind of like vaguely kind of like amusing and is that for Chamberlain Coffee for Chamberlain Coffee going to various retailers I was like how can I make this cool and then I came out with something kind of I'm not spoiling it but it's kind of in that world cool god I really crave we'll see if it hits that craving for that kind of campaign buy I just crave like producing campaigns again you should do that That's like, I just crave it. Like, I love that thought. It's so fun. And like physical product is such a great opportunity to do it.

2:12:24I think especially for people like us who spend so much time with digital video, digital numbers. Like, even when we meet someone who's wearing one of our hats, like the feeling is just so different. It's so different. Than a viewer. When someone's like choosing to go into a physical space with something that represents us. It's such a different feeling. Totally. Totally. What do you think about just the state of YouTube at the moment? Someone who, you know, was very much a pioneer of, you know, making YouTube videos and content that was based around like a personality. Like what do you, what is your POV on the state of YouTube at the moment?

2:13:04It is in such a state of limbo to me where there was this sort of renaissance during the sort of real era where everybody was vlogging. Everybody was being themselves, myself included. and that was such a departure from the more weirdly produced content that was going around at the time whether it was like comedy videos that were more like written out sketched out stuff like that or it was even younger like teenage youtubers setting up their rooms super super perfect and doing like the perfect bedtime routine or doing the perfect hall you know everything felt very manicured for a period of time and then it sort of got like loose again and it was like everybody not again I guess it became super raw and then now

2:14:15that's not really working anymore like what I'm watching on YouTube is not YouTubers like the era of YouTubers I don't know. Like that might be done for now. I think we're in the moment. Like I've said this a few times, but I think we're in the moment of like videos, not creators where everything is about videos. And like there could be a week where a creator, a relatively unknown creator just makes a video that gets 5 million views. Yeah. But then that's the video of the moment and then we move on. Yeah. It's almost like we're reverting back to the lean back experience, which I know you didn't experience, but I did growing up of television where you just like turn it on and you're like, you tell me what's on today.

2:14:55Yeah. You know, and it's kind of like, hey, YouTube, hey, TikTok, hey, you know, just tell me what's on. Yep. Show me what's on today. Rather than me seeking out. You like, with you, I think you, Casey and Dobrik were like a different chapter where I sought out creators to watch. You know, and I think today when I open YouTube, I'm just like, yeah, what's, show me what's going on. That's how I consume it as well. and I'm still an avid YouTube watcher. Like there are a few like, I'm trying to think if I even know their names. Like there are some YouTubers who like consistently come up, but I don't even know their name.

2:15:35Yeah. It reminds me of music on Spotify where I know so many songs now. But you don't know the artist. Probably don't know the name of the artist and I definitely wouldn't recognize them if they walk right in front of me. Absolutely not. That's so true. Being a musician is kind of, actually that's a terrible industry. I would hate to go into that industry. Yeah. Sounds incredibly difficult. it's kind of nice because you get your songs like added to a playlist, but then like you get to kind of chill out. Like nobody knows your face necessarily if you don't want them to, but yeah, ultimately that would be terrible.

2:16:01And I really wouldn't want to do that. Yeah. I don't envy the, and you know, not to say, I think we're still kind of like establishing ourselves, but I don't envy the people who are just starting out now. I think it's so much harder now to figure it out because the signals you get are very different. Like the signal of a viral video is very different today than it used to be. And it doesn't mean as much that like you can capitalize on that momentum. Like I don't, it all, you have to be so sure of what you're creating. So you don't get informed by signals like viewership or, you know, certain things that can really impact you as a creative person.

2:16:40It has to be prioritizing brand overviews for a long period of time, which is difficult for people to do. So I've been seeing a lot of like for the first time in my career, a lot of even on Instagram, like I my growth is negative. Like I'm not growing on Instagram and I understand why. Like I'm definitely in a phase where I'm shifting audiences a little bit in a way because I'm changing what I'm putting out. And so I think my audience is changing. It's almost been like a euphoric experience to watch that happen and to say. That's OK, like I don't care. because I think we all fear that moment when there's either a plateau, like a serious plateau, or even a moment of decline.

2:17:22And I'm experiencing that right now. And it's, by the way, hey, let me tell all y 'all, it's totally fine. And I mean, not only because that's not, it doesn't mean that you can't have a moment of growth again later, but also because it makes, it shows me that I'm making decisions for my own creative fulfillment and wellbeing. I'm not making decisions to grow. I'm not making decisions to become more well-known, more famous. I'm making decisions based on what I just genuinely want to do. and I'm taking a break from various other things to explore other categories of showbiz secretly. And that's my business.

2:18:19Show business. And that's my business. That's fucking show business. Fucking show business, baby. And so, you know, like, but it's like, it's okay to, I don't think, like, it's not failure. I really don't think it's failure. But you're also at a, we, we have another term. I'm throwing so much vocabulary at you, but post platform. Post platform is a term we use for creators like yourself who just really, you do not like you deleted your TikTok. Doesn't matter. You know, like you could not post another thing on Instagram or YouTube this year or for the next 12 months. Doesn't matter. Oh, see, I don't know.

2:18:59I think so. I think then when you post and come back, it's not like people, like you still exist in the world. As a human, you're a real, like you still exist. Oh, that? Right. That I know. Yeah, but like the brand of Emma Chamberlain exists whether or not you're posting, in my opinion. Yeah. Do you agree with that? Like if you stopped your podcast specifically just two times a week, would you still feel comfortable with what you're putting out? If I stop with my podcast? Yeah, so you stop your podcast. No. No YouTube, no podcast. Well, I would have so much time. I'd be so fucking bored I'd have to make something.

2:19:37My podcast does take up, that is a time. Honestly, now that I'm thinking about my earlier split, podcasts might be, it might be actually 50, 40, 10. What was the 10 again? I don't remember. The 10 was like. Photo shoots. Doing a photo shoot or doing like this, what we're doing today. or like little things like that. That's like 10. That's barely anything. And is podcasting the lion's share of your income right now? Oh, yeah. That is like, that is how. That is how you make money. Okay. Yeah. That's amazing. Like you're a podcaster. Fully. Do you connect with that identity of like I'm a podcaster?

2:20:12I totally do. But I think people don't, like I do. Yeah. And I think I'm like, I love podcasting to be honest. Yeah. It is also very hard. Yeah. Yeah. Which I like, which is so crazy. You're doing it hard in the way that you do it? The way that you do it is also very specific. Like you have a solo podcast. Well, right. It doesn't need to be hard. But like I'm sure the interviews are different from the solo podcast. Well, the interviews are way easier. Right. Because I mean it's like I'm – they're not way easier actually. Depends on who I'm interviewing. My interviews tend to be easy because I'm interviewing somebody who knows a lot about something that I'm interested in.

2:20:53And you're genuinely curious. And I'm genuinely curious. So it's like, I just get to sit back and listen. It's amazing. It's hard when you're not interested. Like when you're sitting on the side of a table and you're talking to someone and you're like, I'm excellent. That's why I can't do those people. Right. I can't. Yeah. Like it's, it's, I can only interview, yeah, only people who are fascinating to me. Would you ever take the podcast on tour? What do you mean? Like Alex Cooper is doing it right now with Call Her Daddy. Oh, like going, taking it around. Yeah. Or as they say in the biz, take the show on the road.

2:21:25Take the show on the road. Is she doing live shows? Yeah. No. No. I mean, yeah, because you'd have to do that in an interview setting. That's my nightmare. The beauty of your show. That would be a one-woman show and it's all on you. That's like a one-woman monologue. That's honestly doing stand-up. Yeah, that's stand-up. But for me, it's like doing stand-up about like, no. Also, going on tour, what a terrible lifestyle. That's not fun. We may or may not be thinking about it. Okay, well, maybe we can offline about it and be like, I think that there's a way to do it that would make it fun. Actually, there's definitely a way to do it that would make it fun.

2:22:00Well, it's only fun if you think it's fun. That's like, if you don't want to do it, then yeah, it's definitely not fun. Well, see, I think for my show, for both of your show, it would make so much sense. Yeah. And there's so much to do there. Yeah. Whereas with me, I think what makes my show feel the way it feels is the fact that it's me completely comfortable in my own comfy space. I also do not, do not like public speaking. Yeah. I'm not into it. I love it. Well, actually, can I be honest? It is like a drug for me. Okay, see, it's like a drug for me, but I'm like afraid of it beforehand. Like I get really nervous.

2:22:46I have diarrhea. Like I'm like fully like really. I think I'm going to die. I'm like, this is the death of me. And I'm like getting a panic attack. I'm so, I'm such an anxious person that like, I get so in my head. And then I'm on stage, I'm dissociating so bad. I'm like, wow, where am I? Am I real? Am I even talking? Like, it's so bad. So, but I do it. And then afterwards I'm like, whoa, I'm powerful. Yeah. Right. And then I feel incredible for the rest of the day. I get off stage and I'm like, I'm not like other people. Exactly. I am different. I'm on a stage. I do TED Talk. I'm on the stage.

2:23:20So I'm different. They're in the seats. I'm different. Yeah. And then two weeks later, we're doing public speaking again, and I'm like, I'm going to die. Back to square one. Yeah, I'm going to die. Yeah. Yeah. There is something really beautiful, and I assume this for you about uploading to RSS feeds where there's no public viewership. The absence of public viewership is so powerful. Like, that is so incredibly powerful that, like, it is odd. Like with Chamberlain Coffee, imagine if your revenue, like your P &L was just out in the open and everyone could just at all times look at your performance of like, how is the business doing?

2:24:01That is YouTube, right? Everyone looks at our most recent videos and they're like, how are those guys doing? It's public humiliation. It's public. Like, you know, you've looked at a creator, you know, in the past and like, oh, wow, their viewership's not the same as it was. Yep. Like you just make a snap. I wonder what's going on. I wonder how they're doing. You make a snap judgment where you're just like, huh. Well, people probably think that about me in some ways. Like people probably think that about me and they're like, you know. I don't know. There was a time. I think people definitely did when you first stepped away from YouTube.

2:24:30That was like everyone. Yeah. But you're like, to me, it's still just amazing that again, you can upload something that says bed with an image of your bed and millions of people want to watch it. That to me is so powerful. I don't know if that would happen now. Try it. and maybe I will try. Try it. I know. I don't know. The thing is, when I try to turn on a camera and be in front of a camera for YouTube, like when I try to do a YouTube video, I filmed videos this summer and they're never going to come out because there's something so strong in my intuition that's telling me not to that I would film a full video.

2:25:06I was, it made me, I had a psychological reaction to it. I became deeply depressed from trying to - Watching back a video or just trying? Just trying to even make one. Yeah. I, it was, I was, it's like I have a mental block almost or. It's like going to the gym after not working out for a long time and you're just not where you used to be. It's not that. Okay. It's not that. It's, I really, cause I'm better at it now. Oh, interesting. It's not even that. it's that in my gut I know I should not be making YouTube videos right now it's it's like not what my soul needs it's almost like spiritual like my intuition tells me what to do and making a YouTube video is fighting against that intuition and for some reason that I genuinely can't explain my body is like rejecting is like stop you don't want to do this you're doing this for the wrong reason you're doing this because you feel like people are mad at you not because you want to do this not because you have something to say you you know what you want to do which is explore various other things other ways to create video i love video creation to with you know to every like every step of the way.

2:26:37Being in it, like figuring out the pace of it, like figuring out how it's shot. Like I love every single step of the process. That has not changed. I think what my intuition is trying to tell me is if you continue to make YouTube videos right now, you're going to miss something else that's in this same world that's different. Understood. Does that make sense? 100 % understood. Yeah. Because also making a YouTube video is very different from video making. Totally. Because of the additional layer of the distribution of it and the outcome, like the viewership of it, the publishing a YouTube video is very different from making it.

2:27:22And then like the process of being in love with creating video, that is different. It's just a different thing. and once you upload that first YouTube video, you're kind of probably going to get back in, right? Totally. Yeah. And YouTube will always be there too. Yeah. You have a channel called Emma Chamberlain. Like you can just, in 10 years when you're 32 and you're just like, hey, I want to make a YouTube video. I'm a mommy vlogger now. I look at, with Neistat, like he, he uploads like out of nowhere and it just, millions of people are there to watch it because, and I think you have the same thing where it's just like, yeah, if you upload, we're all going to watch.

2:28:01And it could be in six months. It could be in a year. It could be in two years. It just has to feel right. Yeah. Because here's the thing. Something that doesn't feel right, I remember there was like a few times on my YouTube channel I uploaded a video when my intuition was telling me not to. Yeah. And you want to know what fucking happened? Everyone hated me and those videos. right i tried to push through that intuition and it absolutely backfired and for good reason because i didn't listen to my intuition and take a break when i needed one and that was like years and years ago but not that people haven't hated me since because they probably have but that was like dark because it was i was going against my intuition yeah and people

2:28:58most of the time when somebody's a fan of you, they're going to want more, of course. Sure. So you almost, you can't listen to that voice because as much as we appreciate that voice, I want more from all of my favorite creatives. We all want that, right? Can I tell you what I want from you right now? Please. Not in this exact moment. Yes. And maybe it's premature. Okay. But I think what I would like is when I listen to your pod and there's just some of these lines that stick out to me, I really do. The reason why I consider you a writer right now, I would love a book with like meditations on creativity.

2:29:38Wow. I love that. Literally like just these kind of excerpts similar to the Rick Rubin book. I don't know if you've read that. I actually, it's on my bookshelf and I have not read it. Check it out. Even just open it and look around. Or like I have this book called The Daily Stoic by Ryan Holiday, which has like these meditations on stoicism every day. And like excerpts on creativity and life is what I would love from you. And in a physical, like tangible form. There's some things there. There's some things there. And books specifically has been on my mind. Like in a way, again, that to me is a passion project.

2:30:13Like I would never do that as like my main source of income. but like a passion project I'm like that is so up my alley I just think you need to like it's a timeless piece that gets to sit forever you know like I look at books like steal like an artist or you know like a bunch of Seth Godin books he has one called The Practice and I look at those and I sit on my shelf as like a representation of my identity and I think that you have a series of thoughts that can be compiled into something like that? I have, let's just say I have a Google Doc that vaguely resembles that, but it's more like it's all my podcast outlines from all, because I really go in depth.

2:31:04And it's like all of my inner workings. And the reason why I started compiling them, because I used to just delete them, which was so stupid. but luckily for the last like three years I've been compiling them now. So I do not, I no longer, well, I guess it's two years, two years. I no longer delete them and I'm compiling them because that is sort of like, I feel like those two things could go hand in hand. It's like what, you know, like what's going to, yeah. I mean, and I also like what I'm excited about moving forward too is, I like the idea of being able to creatively hibernate. yes and i i have not ever yet chosen a a space where that's normal like with podcasting for example that's two a week yeah i thought that the hipster wheel of youtube was bad i mean it's at least easier because if i'm really like emotionally exhausted i can turn the camera off and just be like into the mic like I'm whatever.

2:32:10The outline process is the hardest part though. And that's what's like, you know, but that's also not on, that's similar to the editing process of a YouTube video. You're hibernating and you're like working on this thing. But you're not, you're super available. Like even to an audience, right? And I think there is something to how cool music is, you know or like I love that oh my god being able to like go and drop an album and then like leave for six months and go live your life months like years years and you're still relevant or even like being on a tv show if you're an actor like yeah and you're you were on I don't know the office and then you I mean the office is an anomaly but uh totally or being in a movie like yeah Gosling Ryan Gosling if you really track the amount of movies he's been in and over the past 15 years it's not that many but they were super iconic and he you know came then went away yeah then went away and like yeah that is to apply that to youtube yeah of like you're gone for a year and you've taken the footage you've made like eight episodes of some sort i know and then that's riddled in fear that's riddled in fear that's never but i think it's cool there's something that's like people don't do that i know see that's the thing i

2:33:29I like I just the problem is I don't know what it is next like I actually don't know I have like so many different ideas and what I've noticed is you can't one day you wake up and you know what it is like as a creative person I feel like one day you wake up and you're like yep I gotta do that I have to do that buy that domain I need to buy that domain weirdunderwear.com is mine okay yeah like I just have had no I've been on I've not stopped people think that I did stop because I stopped just YouTube but I supplemented with other things so it's like I've never been off camera offline ever since I started, right?

2:34:27That's wild. Because the podcast is still, even though less people see it, it's still, for me, the same load in a lot of ways. For sure, yeah. So it's like the load has shifted and I've yet to like chill. So I'm trying to chill in the areas that like, like I actually think my layout right now is really nice. Like doing my podcast, doing Chamberlain Coffee and then other random little passion projects on the side. for whatever reason not doing youtube for me is giving me the space that i need to figure out what's next in the video realm period video as just a medium yeah yep it's probably space from youtube studio too like that i do think it's the space oh my video is 10 out of 10 great thank you Thank you, YouTube.

2:35:33I'm going to, yeah. Yeah. Just go bury my head somewhere. Yeah, I'll just, I'm obviously going to delete my channel and archive everything. What have you, you've been super open about mental health and burnout and like being that connected to the internet and sharing so much of yourself. Like what have you learned about how to keep yourself mentally healthy and doing this career? Well.

2:36:02clearly not enough to be completely honest like i i mean i was like born somewhat of the um

2:36:14i'm already an anxious and depressed person like i'm already that's already who i am i was that before that does not go away no matter what good fortune comes and I learned that very quickly uh I do think that there are a lot of things about this industry that take an anxious and depressed person and it's ironic too because I started everything as a way to distract myself from my depression at the time and then And it was hard to admit to myself at a certain point, oh, my God, this is making me, now this is making me depressed. Right. And it's the question of like, okay, well, then what the hell can I do?

2:37:07Like, am I just the broken one? Yes, but also, you know, it's understandable that this career path has come with a lot of psychological challenges. Like, that just makes sense. I mean, the pressure is immense. The fear, the constant fear, the feeling that you're being hunted at all times. Like there's so many things that are like next level that, you know, I lost my train of thought. But how is the relationship to, to Spotify as a platform? Cause like you used to have the relationship with YouTube. Yeah. Like, is it, I don't know. Like, is it different? Like, what does it feel like to be like a Spotify, like a Spotify creator?

2:38:08Well, it's very different because, you know, I like Spotify and I have a deal, you know what I mean? Like it's very different because, you know, it's like, they're the ones that are putting the ads on my show and I'm doing the ad reads it like, and, and they're sort of paying me a salary almost. Yeah. So it's so much more, it's so much more comfortable for me. Um, because I, I'm not questioning like, okay, well, what if there's like, what will happen with AdSense? It's like, you know, it's, I'm not worried about AdSense, but I'm also working with Spotify more intimately, like as a platform. I worked somewhat intimately with YouTube as a platform when I got to a certain level, you know, we started to build a relationship, but YouTube is, is a platform, right?

2:39:05Like they, they are not involved in like, like Spotify, their, their in-house editors edit my show. Interesting. You know, they do all the uploading for me. Oh, so you like turn in the episode to them. So basically I turn in the episode to them. They edit it. And the way that the episodes are recorded, I don't even need to like review it because I already know. I say while I'm recording, like, okay, wait, cut that. Can you move this piece over here? So, you know, it's very like, I recently hired a producer for my show. It was like so, it's been kind of scrappy since day one, which I love. I prefer.

2:39:55That's the YouTube way. Yeah, like I work better that way.

2:40:04But it's very different because they're involved in the creative process in a way too because they're editing for me. uh they're um what about like the sets like is that all you so the main set is mine at home right and that's just you know this sort of sofa bed that's in my office like anyone could do this setup it's it's not fancy at all you could order my microphone in my little recorder thing on amazon like it's all the camera is like this like literally scrappy again it's a video camera like camcorder and I like that camera because number one it's reliable and number two it it feels cozier like it feels cozier to me like it being this sort of it's one angle it's just me sitting on this couch.

2:41:05And what I love about it too is that when I'm not so focused on the production of it all and the production's seamless, I'm able to actually provide something more valuable when I'm talking. Because I'm not worried about all the other factors. Now, that works specifically for me and my show. That does not work for everybody. but the setup for the interviews is a bit more, it's a bit more, it's at the Spotify studio. Oh, cool. And they bring it in. They like build it every time I do an interview in there. They'll like build it into an existing studio. Oh, interesting. And I sort of designed this set, right?

2:41:47I was like, I want it to feel like kind of cozy grandma's house. And it works perfectly for interviews. I wouldn't want to bring people into that, my little room. Like it allows my show. It's like I named Anything Goes Anything Goes because I wanted to be able to do anything I wanted. Because it's it's I I've created something that at least in my eyes feels like a blank canvas every single time I sit down to record. And there is definitely like a through line. Like it all is very it seems like there's a theme to it. but the reason for that is because it's just what I'm thinking about right now yeah I think that's smart even for us we considered changing the name of our main channel we would find a format that we kind of liked we had a show called The Breakdown it was an analytical essay show and we were like let's change the channel to The Breakdown because this is what we are this is the thing and we didn't I think it's one of the best things we ever did because it allowed us to be flexible and now we have two, three hour long podcast episodes that's not what our channel was two years ago And it might not be what it is two years from now.

2:42:55Next year. I think that's so great that you can do that. But you both feel comfortable because it's just, you both feel comfortable. Because I think a lot of creators get in their own heads about what they are. Yeah, I mean, of course. We definitely do. Of course, me too. Sometimes I have to write it down. I'm like, I am this for that. Right? Yeah, but it's also like, it's so much better to be like, all I am is me. And what I put out is just, that's, the through line is me. That's sort of been also my career philosophy, you know, it's just like the through line just has to be me. So whatever I'm doing, it, it just has to feel like me.

2:43:42And then hopefully everything else will fall into place. That does get a lot harder when you like hire a team and build out like a production company. Cause then all of a sudden it's like, it can be you, but it also has to be a version of you that provides for all these people. Totally. You know, and if you found that version of you, it's like, well then don't fuck that up. Like that's the version of you that provides. That's why I try to make my money in areas that I control completely. yeah so like my podcast for example that is so scrappy it like i it it is literally i could do the show i mean obviously i love doing the interviews and that has been really exciting for me but that is not the core of the show sure the core of the show is me by myself and if you didn't have access to spotify's editing team you could just edit the show it's fine like you know how to make that show absolutely and so i don't need anyone and also i'm not i don't have to But there's like I don't I'm not hiring anyone.

2:44:47Yeah. So that gives me this mental freedom where I'm like, oh. I can rely on this because it's all me. But I also am getting to a place where I need I need to be team working a little more, though. Yeah. Yeah. Because I could be doing, number one, because I'm a social person more than I thought I was. I'm realizing that again as an adult. I went through a phase where I was like, no, I do everything by myself. I'm this lone wolf. No, I'm not, actually. Maybe I thought I was being the cool girl for saying that for a long time. But actually, I do really enjoy working with others. and I think that there's a world where I can do both and like I think you know my next chapter of projects I think will include other people and will be there will be maybe a slightly more intricate like

2:46:00process of producing it you know if you look back now is there anything you would change? No. Not one thing. I, I,

2:46:18no. Because, I mean, I'm cringing at everything, right? Like I look back, I cringe at everything. You have to, yeah. But,

2:46:32I just don't even believe in, in the feeling of regret almost at times. I think regret is important when you do something really wrong in a way. But it doesn't really make sense here for me. Like for me, in my brain, I'm like, why would I regret any of this? I, it, and even when I have made mistakes, I don't regret making the mistake because I'm such a firm believer in, you know, using those experiences to just make you better and more dynamic. And like, you know, to, so I regret nothing. If you were going to teach something at a university, what would you be excited and able to teach?

2:47:34And honestly, like right now, I feel like I just, I love, I'm so obsessed with

2:47:55like living a really good life and like finding the way to do that and I feel like I've had personal experiences that have debunked what we all think a good life is in a way. Like I have like my dream career and I'm healthy and my parents are healthy and I have a great relationship with them and I've incredible friends and like an incredible team. Like I have such a great life and, but that's not enough. Like, like you, you have to be like, you have, there's things that you have to do to make all of that good. Does that make sense? And I'm so obsessed with that. And that's like all I don't want to talk about on my podcast is figuring out how do we have the happiest life possible?

2:49:06And I mean, that's actually a whole, not even happiest. How do we live the most fulfilling life possible? Happiest, I hate that. Because it's like that's actually not necessarily a good thing. There's going to be natural ups and downs. You have to have a lot of talents or else you're not going to learn anything. And then again, you're not living a full life. So maybe I'd teach a class about that. But see, I would rather take a class about that. If I were to teach a class about anything, it would probably be like.

2:49:41How to edit a YouTube video in a way that's so annoying for anyone above age 17. How to keyframe the shit. How did it spend 30 hours editing a video that no one over 17 could stomach? Okay, that is what you do. That's a good question. Well, I'm just so grateful for you to sit down with us for this amount of time. This has been something that we've talked about for years, getting to do this. I mentioned to you we're very nostalgic people. Like I felt in the middle of this conversation, nostalgic for this conversation. But it was, it was really special. And I think for those people who are here at the end with us, like very, very special relationship to those people.

2:50:31And this is the thing that having a interview show has, I'm just so happy about that it creates these relationships that we get to, you know, like the conversations now we get to have off mic are going to be really cool. And like the, just, it's just a cool relationship that gets built. So I'm so grateful. I mean, this is such like a, such a new type of conversation for me. And, and obviously I'm just such a big fan. So it's just, it's always so magical to do these things. And we are going to like in a week, be like, Oh, we're going to get nostalgic. We're all nostalgic. Yeah. Remember that time?

2:51:07Yeah. But we're going to have to do it again. Yeah. We'll do a part two. We'll do a part two. We'll do a part two. Absolutely. Yeah. All right. Well, thank you, Emma, for coming. Thank you for listening. Um, and we'll see you for part two. Yes.