Inside Michelle Khare's Most Dangerous Video

24:56And I would say, OK, Michelle's going to recreate Tom Cruise's biggest stunt. He's going to go. She's going to hang off the side of a plane. And we learn that there are these special contact lenses that she has to wear. You know, the plane is super difficult to find, you know, whatever it is. We sort of realize the things that we use to hook them in just a friend to friend conversation are some like, why not use that same those same things in the cold open? And then honestly, and then after you've pitched it, you see what first few questions they ask you back. The first question when we pitched this video to people was, how are you going to get the plane?

25:32Every time. Question number one. So that's the first big problem that we solve in the episode. Question number two. I heard Tom had to use special contact. Like when we posted a teaser of this on Twitter, everyone was like, oh, but does she know about the contact lenses? And I was like, see, that's something people care about. It's interesting because, you know, the contact lenses are definitely a bizarre story point specific to this episode. But, you know, I think at OnSide, we're like, OK, people want to care. They're going to care about the wind tunnel training and like the physical running.

26:02But, you know, like that's what people have questions about. They wanted to know everything. Oh, so you're going to some cool celebrity optometrist. What's that like? They want to know what does it mean, the technicalities of that. So we allow that to bend in that way. And I think the first version of this cold open may not have included the contact. It didn't. This is a very deep version 3 ,000 of this cold open. We weren't really feeling it. And eventually we walked back to, well, what are the things people were engaging with us on when we were just talking to them about or pitching it to them?

26:33And it was the contacts, how to find the plane, all that stuff. Man, that is such a good piece of advice to either in actual conversation, go like, take stock of what are the questions people are asking me about this idea or this thing I just did. But even if you don't do that, anticipating what are the questions. Whether just sitting down or being like, okay, I did this thing. Now, what would people obviously ask or not believe? That's a really good framework. Mark Rober actually told us that he, the way he validates his ideas is by sharing them at a party and seeing if people lean in or not.

27:11And he's like, We do this too. You do it too? I'll be honest. I've asked you guys whether or not you realize you've been a part of my test in the past. Oh yeah. You're a part of your focus group. Yeah, of course. It's not intentional. I'm actually like, I think that's great. I'm walking around focus grouping. We don't even get like a$25 Panera Bread gift card. That's like typically what you get in a focus group, right? Okay. Um, but yeah, like I really value y 'all's feedback. So sometimes when I'm like, Hey, Samira, this is what I'm working on. I will very closely pay attention to the first thing you say, whether it's positive or if you look off in the distance and think about something and you're like trying to put it together, that's feedback to me.

27:48You know what? The pitch isn't succinct enough. It's not tight enough. He has to think through whether or not it's good. I need to, something needs to change. A big one for us for our 90 day black belt episode, we would pitch that to people. And the first thing they would say is, wow, that's crazy. But like, is that appropriate? Trying to get a black belt in only 90 days? Interesting. Oh, disrespectful of the craft. Good to know. Now, we knew that going in, but the fact that it was everyone's first question meant, well, we're going to address that head on. And that became the story. Like, is that okay?

28:16The fact that people have questions is the whole thing. Yeah. Right? You always need to make sure there are questions that people want to answer. Yeah. It means people want to know more. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And when you have the thumbnail of her hanging off the side of the plane and we show parts of the takeoff, they're already thinking, OK, so she must do it. And now we need to engage them in completely other like, OK, you thought that was cool. Here's all these other things you didn't know that you might find even more interesting. This story is going places you never thought it would go. Yeah. Like why?

28:47You're pitching to me. Why should I not just go to the end and watch? Yeah. Like read the last page of the book. Yeah. The goal for every scene is, when you have a finale that's hanging off the side of the plane, can you make every scene that comes before that more interesting than that scene? And that is very difficult, but that is what we strive to try to do. So we're just talking like intro right now. But I think it's extremely important because, again, this is everything we're talking about. It's like the YouTuber's DNA of earning attention, right? of earning the trust of the audience to go, all right, I'll give you 40 minutes.

29:23Because now you're asking for 40 minutes. You're not asking for 10 minutes anymore. You're not asking for 20 minutes. You're asking for 40 minutes. That's a lot of time. There's one other thing that I think is really crucial, and we can't stop thinking about it. It's like one of the most, it should be one of the most elementary forms of storytelling advice, but we got it from one of our favorite filmmakers of all time, Max Joseph. he has worked with Casey Neistat for a long time. He worked with them on Make It Count, which is like one of my favorite YouTube videos ever. But he said every good story has an A to Z, meaning an A to Z is established up top where the audience knows, okay, this story is over when X happens.

30:02So he says in Make It Count, they use the map. And they're like, he's like, when we travel around the world, when this line connects back to this line, the story is done. So it's like a visual representation of, stay until this happens. And like, you can have some peace as an audience member when you're watching that you're like, I know I'm not at the end, but I kind of know where I am in this progress bar without giving me a progress bar. So I think you guys, this type of concept does that really well of, here's what's going to happen. She's going to take off and she's going to be hanging off the side of the plane.

30:34When that happens, this story is over. Then I have that sense of relief. Yeah. But until that happens, the story's not over. And so you're understanding, at least this framework of, okay, I'll sit here for 40 minutes because that's A and this is Z. So I think that's something I thought about when I was watching this. You've brought up problems. You said the plane is the first problem. Yes. And the contacts were another problem. How do you think about making sure you have enough problems to get someone through 40 minutes worth of an episode? Do you anticipate the problems before you embark on this journey?

31:08How much of the problems just arise of like, oh, I guess now I'm doing it. I need contact lenses. So before we go out to fully greenlight an episode, we typically will only pursue it if we think there are enough conflict to make it interesting, enough obstacles for me or our team to overcome for there to be a rich story. If there aren't enough of those, it's not a good story, in my opinion, worth telling. And I think what's interesting about documentary in particular is, yes, we can have an idea of here are some problems we'll hit along the way. But you also have to have the humility of allowing the moment for when new problems arise and they kind of become the focus of the edit.

31:50I think the contacts are a good example of that. you know that could have been a very short part of the video but people were very interested in it it was a much bigger problem than we anticipated so I think it's a push and pull of planning well but then having humility to the story I noticed that as I was watching you guys do a really good job making sure that once a problem is solved a new problem is introduced really quickly so that but I'm not left hanging in between. So the first problem is the plane, right? And that's a very fun thing to watch you go through and you guys do great edits on that.

32:27There's a lot of comedy in it. It's just great edits. But immediately after the plane, there's not necessarily a tangible problem for the stunt, but the problem that's introduced is Garrett's relationship to you, which is super interesting that right after the plane is solved, it's like Garrett has a very intimate relationship with you because you guys are married. and he, on a previous challenge, had a panic attack based on something you were doing. So now you get this new problem immediately and you're leaned in on this relationship. And I think right after that, another problem. So you guys do a really good job of going like problem solution.

33:04But once a problem is solved, a new problem is introduced immediately. Right. I also think what's important to note and what you guys do really well is it's not introduce problem, solve it. Introduce problem, solve it. It's introduced problem, maybe solve a little bit of it, new problem. Cut out before it's getting solved, new problem. And you have such an incredible commitment to making sure that the problems are re-engaged. There's one problem that gets opened, which is you're afraid of birds. And birds pose danger to you. You don't like birds. And birds could be very dangerous to you when you're attached to this plane.

33:41and there is a shot at the end that's very brief of just a bird in the sky before you take off. And I was like, oh, that one's back. That problem is back. That shot is over me, my dialogue, saying I'm feeling incredibly anxious right now. And we immediately cut to the visual representation of unpredictability, which is a bird. So two problems have come into one. And I was just like, wow. They will never, this crew will never open up a problem without making sure you're satisfied and you get to the end of that problem. I was attacked by birds once. Dead seriously. I'm not even joking. You remember this?

34:18I called Colin to tell him that. I was in Denver, Colorado. It was a miserable experience. I was walking and there was a tree and a bunch of birds and I was like, oh, that's a lot of birds. And I walk under the tree and I start feeling this very sharp... See, this is what I'm talking about, Karen. You have a lot of bird encounters too on this page. I have had a bird encounter. extremely sharp pain coming and hitting my head and my body and i just start sprinting indoors and once i get indoors i'm like like so freaked out everyone inside is like looking at me like did we just see you get attacked by birds i've been attacked by birds they are apparently related to dinosaurs dinosaurs are scary i was trying to see where that was going I was like, wait, yeah.

35:09No, but it's a real fear. It's a real fear. Yeah, to go back to conflict. It's like, what show is this again?

35:22Like, oddly enough, sometimes we actually find ourselves taking conflict out because we have too many different pieces of conflict, and it's really about which conflict to focus on. I mean, there were dozens of storylines that aren't even touched in the episode just because they didn't feed into the plot points of the of for I personally use Snyder's Beats the Save the Cat feature structure for every episode that we make explain that for people um Blake Snyder wrote a book uh Save the Cat one of the greatest books of storytelling uh ever written it's an amazing template um to sort of structure a narrative story a hero's journey on and it's mainly for feature films but this is what i learned in film school and like what my brain is now programmed to so i know it very uh very acutely and i every episode of challenge accepted that we make i attach into that skeleton at first then we might play an experiment but we always try to start there and if something's not working in an edit it's usually because we deviated very far off the path without realizing um and so when we're deciding what conflict to choose in each episode it often comes down to do those conflicts relate to the plot points that we are using in the Snyder's beats for this episode the story you know honestly came way more about became more about the crew and Michelle leading the crew and leading the team and the team success than just um than just Michelle pulling off a feet solo yeah you can't have a conflict that takes you too far away from the core conflicts that you have put your stake in the ground in you're like these are the three or four conflicts that are going to drive the entire story and we need to make sure that we never get too far away from one so that someone forgets the last thing you want is a conflict that comes back 15 minutes later and someone's like oh i don't even i don't even care about that because i already forgot about it so it's a little it's almost a dance of watching at its back and going, you know what we haven't gotten yet?

37:22Garrett's relationship to Michelle. We have something, let's put it in this slot. Conflict does two things. It progresses the plot and it develops character. That's how stories exist. And so if your conflict isn't developing or progressing the plot that you're trying to tell, then that's what we get to what you're speaking of, which is deviating from that. I just think what's interesting though is on YouTube, I do, maybe this is me, but I crave a lot. I crave breathing room too in between, right? I crave kind of just like settling into certain things. And for me, that actually came through. And something that I wish I saw more of in this is when you shot with your iPhone and showed like your lucky underwear.

38:05And I think there's this really interesting thing that I wanted to talk about with this of like as YouTube, and you guys are pushing this quite a bit, but as YouTube gets like higher production, more intense uh stunts and and uh quality i don't want to lose the like iphone you know accessibility of everything it's like that was a great moment of like breathing room for me of personality and i wanted more of that in this episode that's something that i would say i want like i just want totally i want to know more about even like your guys conversations at home of like what are you guys thinking about this with each other like in your married life like Like, this is pretty insane that you're going to hang off the side of a plane.

38:51And you see that at the end with your reaction to it. But I would love to see some of that rawness and sitting in the car on the way to set or something like that. Is that something that's either intentionally not in or that you think about in the process? I think if it's, you know, you guys talk a lot about shots versus moments. and to me if it's a moment it doesn't matter what camera it's captured on you got to go for it um sometimes if we didn't get it we didn't get it like some of those conversations got it yeah and I would say I'll be completely honest with you guys that this was a really big one in the sense of we wanted to make sure we we did it well and we did it right and there were times when the those conversations you're talking about happened but they needed to happen off camera got it you get what i'm saying like they're they're serious topics we're covering and and discussing and you know whether it's me and garrett or our team i want to like our number one priority is doing it safely doing it well making something amazing and sometimes that means turning the camera off to make sure that the whole crew and everybody knows exactly where their mark is what's going on and and those serious conversations happen i totally agree with you that yeah i think in hindsight it would have been great to have cameras out but also i'm really happy that like everybody hit their mark and we do as a team i think take a lot of pride and sensitivity and knowing when to not film those things too yeah yeah i hear you because also as a creator we have a big responsibility to show things like ethically.

40:39And what we don't want to do is create this piece that like if we're having these conversations that like could have been really interesting to listen in on. Some of those conversations touch on things that like would start to make the audience without full context go, oh, is this like super irresponsible and dangerous to do a stunt like this? In reality, it's not based on the training that Michelle has and the things that we sort of put in place. A really nice quote that I heard recently that has kind of stuck with us, Penn from Penn & Teller was talking about Houdini's ideology and his philosophy, which was, you should never do a stunt or a trick that is more on stage that would actually be more dangerous than just sitting in your living room at home.

41:25And that was really interesting to me because I thought, well, Houdini did the water torture cell and all these other things. But I started to realize that all of those tricks had built-in safety mechanisms to make sure that they were done ethically and morally in front of an audience so that you're not giving real fear or panic to an audience. And that each performer has trained it so much that it is comfortable, you know? And so we use that for all of our episodes. Like, water torture cell, very dangerous if you don't know what you're doing or you don't have somebody there ready to axe down the glass.

41:58This stunt, I mean, this stunt is, yes, Michelle had to train her body for all the crazy conditions that it was going to be put through. But at the end of the day, it's almost, the stunt is a math equation for the rigging. And once you solve that, theoretically, it should be fine. You're not being reckless. Yes. Right. And that, you know, and some of those conversations, which we did debate showing more of those. We had a few more, but without like the full context and spending so much runtime really making the audience understand the full nuance of it. We're very sensitive to the responsibility that we have on YouTube of, I want people to see this and feel inspired to do something big in their own lives.

42:40I, you know, this is not necessarily the playbook for someone to do this at home. Sure. Necessarily. So for the last clip, I don't want to play the ending and the conclusion because I do want everyone to go watch it. I think it's worth investing the time and getting that payoff for yourself. But I want to play the solution to the plane problem. Okay. So that's the first problem that you bring up that everyone wanted to know the answer to. And I want to watch the scene where you get the solution. And we're going to talk about that. We have located the aircraft, the C-130. You're able to get it available.

43:17This C-130 called the Hercules, named after the most popular god of Greek mythology, famous for his incredible power, versatility, and achieving the difficult. Through his contacts at the Red Bull Air Force, Sean was able to secure a C-130 Hercules, which is not only very similar to the A400M, but it's the same type of plane Tom Cruise jumped out of during the 2024 Paris Olympics. I wanted to show that because I love the vintage footage of the C-130. And as I was watching, I did realize in that moment, oh, they're character building this airplane. Like, this really matters. And it was also the first time where I get an immediate win as an audience member and as a viewer, where I know the problem was just introduced.

44:03And then that's the quickest gap between problem and solution, is airplane. And it felt intentional to me that it was like, let's give you a problem and get you a win very early. of like a low and a high. Well, we knew we had to solve that one pretty quickly because the opening scene, we're already at the plane, which means, well, she must have gotten the plane. We're already scouting the plane. And that was just an interesting story choice. We started the story once at the wind fan, once we started this episode at finding the plane because that was the first problem to solve. And then we realized that we weren't hitting our Snyder's beats in the way that is satisfying.

44:38And so we actually rearranged the beginning a little bit so that we just found out that the first several beats of Snyder's Beats, the opening image, theme stated, the debate and the catalyst were all captured for real in that first location scout. The first scene of the episode became the first scene. And so we actually had to take finding the plane itself and put it after us already being there, which feels counterintuitive. But us finding the plane is actually like once we found the plane, that gives us our catalyst. And so now Michelle can go on the journey to actually learn how to hang off the side of it.

45:17But it was mostly just a choice to get the structure in line for it to be satisfying. Yeah. And I love the use of vintage footage anytime we can get it because it it tells us where, you know, we're dealing with a subject matter that has a rich history. and also, without us even saying it, emphasizes how difficult it is to find one of these because there are so few of them, they're used by the military, and just reminds us of that again. A lot of the personification of the plane for us was how can we make it, again, like a dragon, which is a mythical creature, and using this archival footage, literally comparing it to a Greek myth god, was sort of the idea of, oh, this aircraft is this mythical being that Michelle's going to try to wrangle.

46:09By the way, Sean McCormick to me is also a mythical being. Agreed. 100%. He's so amazing. So for context, he's the captain of the Red Bull Air... He's a national champion skydiver, Red Bull athlete. He's the guy. He's the guy. Member of the Red Bull Air Force. Yeah, member of the Red Bull Air Force. Yeah, we one time, he worked with Yes Theory a lot back in the day. and one time Amar's 25th birthday. Do you remember this? I will never forget this. Amar's 25th birthday. Because I did not want to go skydiving again. Is this an example of you getting invited to do plane things? This is a plane thing.

46:41This is a plane thing that we actually did. So we show up to skydive Paris and Sean McCormick comes out and he goes, guys, you wouldn't believe it, but we just got greenlit to do something that has never been done before in skydiving. And I look at Colin and I'm like, Like, let's just do the normal thing. Let's do the normal thing. I'm like, Samir, why are we even friends with these guys? Can we just do the normal skydive thing? And basically, we flew two planes up at the same time and jumped out together. That's really cool. Like, out of the back. It was insane. Sean's crazy. But Sean is awesome.

47:19But I bring up Sean because also, like, in connection with this whole project, you announced something pretty significant with Red Bull, right? Can you explain that? Because Red Bull's role in this is pretty significant. And you've been doing a lot more with Red Bull. They seem to have unlocked the access to this plane, right? Yes. I'm so excited we get to talk about this now because this getting to work with Red Bull in the way that we are now has been a 10 year long dream of mine. So in 2015, when I was a professional cyclist and still working at BuzzFeed, I applied to be a Red Bull athlete.

48:03And I was very swiftly rejected, and rightfully so, because I wasn't ready. but what was very very special about that was it sort of sent me on the path that basically became challenge accepted um and now with this year we were invited to sign with red bull as a creator so we're red bull creator which is really really cool and what it means is that red bull is basically collaborating with us on a series this is just the first of many massive stunts we're going to be doing for the next couple of years. And it's a huge dream come true for me in a lot of ways because I obviously think of, like, you know, a Red Bull athlete and just Red Bull as a brand is the pinnacle of badassery.

48:49And, you know, to work with them on something like this is extremely special because Sean is the person who connected us with the owners of the C-130. Like, he made this possible. Why does he know the owners of the C-130? Why doesn't he? I mean, he's the plane guy. You know how many plane situations he's been in? Plane situation. He's in a perpetual plane situation. Congratulations, though. That is really... It's also a really unique type of partnership in the creator world, right? We're so used to the, this video is brought to you by here 60 to 90 seconds that they've asked that we share and we partner to share.

49:25But this is truly Red Bull just elevating the entire experience for all of us because they were able to get you access. and I think Sean being able to be an authentic character that is necessary for this to happen is also such a cool thing. It couldn't be more natural to have them involved. And they're amazing, amazing to work with. I mean, even for this project, there are members of the Red Bull Air Force who are piloting the helicopter carrying the Cineflex camera. Aaron Fitzgerald, who's on Red Bull Air Force, he, not only in addition to performing helicopter stunts for Red Bull, also does helicopter cinematography for film and TV shows.

50:05And he came out and shot all of the exteriors of me on the plane. So something that's just really special about working with these people is they're so giving with their time and energy and connections. And the coolest thing about them is you can literally take any idea to these meetings, and they will not look at you like you're crazy. Which is special and unique for us, Because most of the time our ideas, you know, you know, people react in a lot of ways to them, but they're always like, huh, you know what? That makes me think of this person I know. And I just love I love being with people who are not just big dreamers, but also doers.

50:46Something I really love about our team at Challenge Accepted is, you know, anyone on our team, you can throw them in a room and they'll come up with crazy ideas that are, you know, massive YouTube videos or TV shows, whatever it may be. but then we can all transition into a second half of the meeting and think critically about okay if we are going to do Tom Cruise's plane stunt who do we know at the FAA can we call them can we email them I think we need an experimental permit to do this you know what someone I I was on set with a couple weeks ago worked with the guys who were on F1 like that is how our team operates is dream really big but then execute and think about every detail too so does that mean like will you get a red bull hat or do creators not get hats creators are different from athletes because that i think for people who don't know like you cannot get a red bull hat unless you're a red bull that's true that is one of the coolest brand moves ever it's very very cool but something that was really unique was in the last year ludwig had a red bull rap on his mic for streaming well red i think ludwig is actually an athlete yeah he's an esports athlete that's right um so i'm in a different i'm in a different okay so you're the first first of this must be this must be you must be the arena right there are there are a couple other red bull creators um but yeah there aren't many so yeah very very special and exciting yeah that's cool i i think um red bull is like definitely at the forefront of how brands operate on youtube in my opinion because obviously we always we say that like brands need to do two things really well one they have to operate like creators So make their own content that creators can step into.

52:22Because I assume some of this will be like, you might show up on the Red Bull channel. We will be showing up on the Red Bull channel, which is exciting. So they have to create an ecosystem where they have a thing that creators can step into. And then on the other side is they have to show up really authentically in our ecosystems, in our content. So like Sean McCormick is an embodiment of Red Bull. The plane is now an embodiment of Red Bull in your video, which is great because there's no forced mechanic of like, here's the brand deal. It's just where you can, you feel the relationship through the content.

52:56And I think that for me is like the next era of how brand relationships should happen on YouTube, which I guess is similar to like movies and classic entertainment business. Like the previous, the current version or the previous version of a brand deal is kind of like a radio ad, right? That we have always like classically done in the middle of our content. And I think we are going to mature and graduate out of that now. Yeah, it's maturing into product placement, into spokesperson instead of talking point. You know what I mean? Which is great. I love it. Which is great. It feels so much more natural.

53:30And I think, you know, Red Bull and brands like it are really ahead of many other, like, influencer marketing campaign opportunities. And you said a little bit about, like, because they released their own videos. And I think that helps so much because they understand why their own videos will perform or not perform well. So that they know when we go to make a video with them, they understand when we say, okay, we have to open it like this and there's no wiggle room there. They're like, of course, we understand that. We have that data too. Yeah, that's cool. And that really helps. I like that. Like they understand the landscape.

54:04I think that's actually one of the biggest differences from the last go around when there was kind of this thought of bringing creators to Hollywood was like, oh, they're talent. Lilly Singh is talent. Put Lilly Singh on camera and we will make the show. But Lilly Singh is an editor, right? And so when you sit her down in the chair, she should be the one actually taking it all the way. And now I think in 2025, what we're seeing even post Amazon and Beast Games is people treating creators as production companies. Like you're talking about, you are a production company. Yes. That's a tangible difference now because you know how the video should come together.

54:37Yeah. And I just think that is one of the biggest, like what you were just talking about, of like a great actor knows like the focal lengths and what a camera feels like. And I appreciate that distinction now with this era of YouTube and YouTube creators because I notice it when I go on other people's sets, especially if you're on a traditional set, when the crew realizes you know, oh, I have to wait for the slate to come in or, oh, I'm going to be mindful of how quickly I see this talking point because the sound guy has been holding a boom pole for 30 minutes and his arms are tired. I want to be super hyper aware of that anytime I'm on anyone else's set because it makes me a better talent and it also makes me a better leader.

55:19For now, we have a large group of people who are making this happen. So it allows me to be a more empathetic leader in that case too. One of Michelle's superpowers is being an incredible producer. And that's a lot. And I think we've talked about, you guys talked about this on the last episode, but her ability at BuzzFeed to learn every single role and know it inside and out, helps her understand what every crew member is going in. And now she can be the best talent she can be for that crew member because she understands what their job is. I'd be curious, how did that come to fruition on this episode specifically?

55:52Like, is there a moment that was difficult or a moment where you made an adjustment where you as not just talent, but also creator are working with Garrett and working with everyone to like shift or make an adjustment? It's a really interesting bifurcation of my brain because on one hand, there is a producer, Michelle, who meta is aware of the concept and this is going to be great. And then there is talent me or the person, the guinea pig in the experiment, who is thinking this is a really hard moment for me to go through. But also then the producer version of me says, but this is the story. This is this failure, this pain, this is the story.

56:31It's important to sit in it. So that happens all the time on these shoots. But I think what was exciting for me about a producer on this project was to learn from Tom's example of really diving into everything. So I'm involved in every aspect of production. I want to know, what are we having for lunch on set? Is everyone's dietary restrictions accounted for? How is that going to feel like going into the second half of the day? When are the breaks? Where's the lighting? What camera are we shooting on? Do our editors know the frame rate of a red Komodo and how do we transcode all of that footage?

57:10But specifically for this stunt, I was very excited to work with Steve, our stunt coordinator, who we've worked with for years at this point, because it was a technical challenge of where do we place the lines on this plane that is markedly different from the original source vehicle that they used? and not only how can we place them in a technical perspective to keep me safe and look okay, but also open up enough to camera. Because there's a version of this stunt where you can rig all of the lines very safely, but your face is planted into the plane. That's technically, one might say, the safest position to do this from, but it doesn't work because how do you tell a story, regardless of whether or not we're recreating Tom's stunt?

57:59even if I was just doing this myself I'd want my face to be visible to camera so the audience can experience what I'm experiencing yeah that's hard that you have to like produce yourself and also just experience it yeah and you probably have to really try to not overproduce yourself and be like I have to be the I have to just like this has to really be me yeah the storybook version of me oh of course you know what I mean and I I would think that that is challenging in this But that's why, like, I think it's important to have checks and balances within the team. Because there are definitely times when, you know, I have a vision or a perspective and Garrett or other members of our team are like, actually, this moment is that that sucks is so ugly that you feel the worst about.

58:45That's the one that everyone's going to comment on. And I have to sit with that and say, like, you know what, you're right. So it's, you know, Challenge Accepted is truly a personal journey for me because it's not just about the physical and mental strain, but it's also like a hit to my pride at times. And that's something I meta have to go through as well. But I think having the team around us to really push that story forward, even when it's to my detriment, I don't know how to explain that the best, but I think that's what makes it good. The last time you were on the show, you said that challenge accepted episodes can cost anywhere between$10 ,000 and$30 ,000.

59:22Mm-hmm. I have to imagine that has changed. It has. I look at the scale of this, and I'm like, you know, I'm sure Red Bull helps, right? Like, because they can unlock doors and unlock experiences. But, like... you know in the world of YouTube you have been covered a lot by the more traditional trades Obviously, the Emmys played a role in this, but what you're making when you're watching it on a TV looks and feels now much more like something that I can watch on Netflix or any of the other streamers. And the cost has trailed with that as well, I anticipate. So how do the economics work? Because I don't feel such heavy brand presence in this episode or in a lot of your episodes.

1:00:07And how do you want them to work in the future? and how big, like, I mean, we have creators who are spending millions of dollars on episodes. Obviously, Jimmy, one of his last episodes, he said cost$4 million. So like, this is no joke now, right? What everyone's making. How do you guys think about the economics of what you're making and how the budgets are getting bigger? And is it safe to say the budget from the last time you've come has at least 10X'd? Depends on the episode. Yeah. Depends on the episode. And I would actually think, like, I want to be clear that I don't personally believe that bigger concept, bigger stunt, bigger bill leads to better video.

1:00:48I don't believe in that personally. And I think about, you know, one of our most popular episodes is me going to experience a 911 dispatch center. That episode is me technically on the phone with somebody for 10 minutes, like in a comfortable chair. Yeah, you're right. And it's riveting and you're on the edge of your seat, I hope, watching it, because of the context and the people and reminding ourselves, like, you know, these are real people doing this every single day. So I would say that we're constantly trying to push the envelope in the stories we tell, but not necessarily how expensive it's going to be.

1:01:26Because that episode you just brought up was one of the cheapest episodes we have ever made. Right. And if we had another story that was similar to that, like that, we would make it in a heartbeat. Absolutely. Of course. How does a modern production company like this work in terms of like, how much viewership do you think you need? How many videos do you need to make? How big can your staff be? Like when you think about this is modern TV in a way, how does it work? Like when you look back on a year. In any given year, we have a set of goals for our company. It's in this big spreadsheet that I make every year.

1:02:01We have a massive like six hour meeting where we go through all of them. It includes, you know, how many subscribers, views, revenue, new business ventures we want to try, risks we're going to take. And every quarter we sit down and reevaluate that. Now, as a part of that, that includes income outcome, P &Ls. We meet every single week to look at every single dollar coming in and out and what's going on. So Garrett and I are very in tune with all of that. And working alongside Nick, our head of operations, we're able to like project out into the future and decide what episodes to greenlight based on that.

1:02:44But they have to hit all of the goals we have, not just like how much do we want to spend on an episode, but like does it match all of the things that are qualitatively goals for us as creative people? um and then as far as the pie itself it's ad sense it's brand deals um but it's also the category opportunities like red bull in the beverage category um we're working with adobe on this project as well um we also do you know speaking engagements personal appearances i feel like it's very similar to you guys um so it's about maximizing each of our own personal time and really valuating do we want to do this or not for any opportunity.

1:03:27I would say we have sort of like a – that meaning we'll – we have kind of like a list of episodes we're interested in making. We know which ones are going to be the cheaper ones that we can just bankroll no problem without worrying about brands. We'll slate those in if we're passionate about those stories. But then there are those like the white whale episodes. Right. We're like, okay, that's going to cost some money. Yep. Is it worth bankrolling without a brand attached because we're that passionate or because we know it's going to hit? If not, we will wait for the right collaboration or the right partner to come by.

1:04:00That's why Red Bull has been such a great recent partner because they like most of the big crazy things that we've been pitching to them and they fit right in and they have the resources to help us unlock those things. Oh, but to your point, I make this crazy pitch deck every year, every January. It's like here are the big white whales of this year. And I spend tons of time and energy on this thing. And it's like template, thumbnails, titles, example brands. We include a sizzle for the year. And that is what we and our internal team, as well as our agents at Gersh, use to pitch these larger concepts.

1:04:39So starting in January, we're pitching the whole season for the year. It's so interesting. You operate so, you operate differently from a lot of creators, but in a way that makes a ton of sense, obviously, because you're like, I know my slate, right? I know, like a YouTube channel today, like yours, you are NBC pitching advertisers, the slate of programming, right? But you're one show, I would say, like you're one show, but you're the network. When you're doing that pitch deck, you are thinking as like a network executive pitching the show out to advertisers. And then when you look out, like, are you sold through once that pitch deck goes out to like, like all the episodes through the year?

1:05:21I mean, it's a rolling thing. So, you know, we're not going to come up with all of our ideas in January. If we come up with one in July, we update that slate constantly with the new ideas. So as things are sold, we take them off. As new ideas emerge, we add them in. But I think often about putting myself in the shoes of the executives that are reading these things. How does our slate compare to every other channel's slate or Google Doc they're receiving? I want it to really stand out. It's got to be visually exciting. I have a professional graphic designer, like go through the whole thing. And the audience for this is probably 20 people.

1:06:00but these are 20 very important people to I want to be on the same page with us of what we're doing I was at one of the Emmy events having a conversation with Sean Evans and I was talking to him about the premise of the Emmys and you know I've been we haven't well we kind of had this conversation but we haven't really had this conversation of like Like, do you feel in any way disrespected by Hollywood for not getting nominated? Or do you feel any level of kind of any, any mal, I don't know. Like, what does it feel like that whole process of the Emmys? Because it was a big thing. And then you didn't end up getting nominated.

1:06:43Yeah. Well, it's special to be here to talk to you guys about it. Because it was three years ago on the show that I said it would be so cool to win an Emmy. And what I think is exciting is now being back here with you guys again is I have a meaningful update to that. And that is we did the campaign. We went out. And what a privilege it is to even be considered. A privilege it was to go through the independent review board process and be on the ballot next to Conan? Yeah, that's crazy. Are you kidding me? It's crazy. To be on billboards in LA. It was cool. It was very exciting. And it was a special opportunity for our team.

1:07:24And we were, you know, we grew a lot from that experience. And the coolest part is that's just the beginning of the journey. I mean, going after an Emmy is a 5, 10, 15-year path ahead of us. And I'm just excited about the forward progress that we made this year. More than anything. I'm so proud of our team. I mean, the work that our whole team did behind the scenes, just preparing our application and the package and, you know, making us sizzle things that will never see the light of day that our little team did together. And it brought us closer together. And I think, like, we have no control over whether or not a group of people or voters are going to give us an award or anything like that.

1:08:11But what is within our control is making the best show that we can possibly make and making an impact in the process. So I think that was honestly the coolest part of the whole thing. Yeah. Yeah, I think, you know, I think for me, I was born and raised in LA, I was always into film. Like, it's always been like a pipe dream to be like, whoa, what if something like that could happen? But I just wonder now, as I thought about that experience, the question of cultural relevance or cultural penetration, meaning awards used to be a way for me to understand what had crossed over into culture. And what was like, not just that, but like what really was making an impact in culture and what was considered like high art.

1:09:03And I think the thing that is so interesting now is that the audience are the voters, right? Like the audience votes. and so the the i just wonder over time how much and you tell me i guess like it is a long process to how much do you care about the emmy as time continues to go on and like you are getting the validation the show is good yeah right like from the people who are watching it and is growing you have sponsors and advertisers you have uh press covering you like i am sitting here from a place of being like, I would die for that validation of like the Oscars or the Emmys. But I'm just curious now that you've gone through the experience, does it still feel like very important to you?

1:09:51Or do you feel relatively satiated from a validation perspective? I mean, we're going to keep going. We're going to keep going for it. We're going to make the best season we possibly can this year. And I think it's important to remember there's a reason traditional still cares about these awards. I think that people care about it because it attracts crew who want to work on something that's Emmy-worthy or Emmy-nominated. It attracts an audience who may have not heard of it previously. And it also attracts ad dollars. It's a way to, without even hearing the logline of the show, know that, hey, this very important group of people said it was good and worthy of advertising.

1:10:39We'll give it a listen. And to me, those are all signs of a maturing industry, one that I want to be a part of. And so, yes, I'm excited to keep going for it. And at the same time, I know what's within our control is making the best show we can. So that's where energy is going to be primarily focused. I think YouTube is very different in that. And maybe this is similar in Hollywood, but like we all just have such a deep pride for our own people. meaning like our tribe our community the people who are doing it on this platform like that felt exciting for everyone I think everyone felt excited about that so I think that was a really cool thing to see and I do think this year more than ever I'm seeing the world of Hollywood take interest in creators like in a way that I've never seen before yeah I don't know where that nets out yeah I really don't because the biggest question is like okay Netflix comes and says do challenge accepted on Netflix.

1:11:41Is that interesting or what needs to be true for you to do that? I think at this point it has to be access like a new level. Right. Which is hard to achieve. I mean I just hung off the side of a plane Michelle. You're reaching these levels. Right. Also I feel There's something so exciting about earning the level in the story. Yes. Of finding, I'm sure you do too, yeah, finding the plane. This story would be very different if it was on Netflix because the viewer may feel like, oh, it's Netflix money. What is the problem? So getting the plane is no problem for the Netflix version of our show, perhaps.

1:12:22But for six people in our office, it is kind of a cool. It's a big deal. It's a really big deal. And that's something that makes it fun to watch as a viewer, and we all understand that. And when we're talking about what makes us want to greenlight an episode, being additive to the conversation. This has been done before. Tom did it. Paramount did it. But our story is different because this is the ragtag group of our friends from college doing it for the first time, not with a big studio, but out of our little office to make it happen. And I don't know, I got really excited about that. And I think we're always open to other opportunities, but I think the longer that Hollywood waits to present those opportunities to creators, the more difficult it will be to convince them of the value.

1:13:12I agree with that. I think though now is the moment, but I think the value exchange needs to be really clarified now. Yeah. Because it's not just, hey, we're Netflix. Yeah. Now there's a new... There's like... There's so much more reason to not do it than to do it. And I think that's... Either, in my opinion, has to be like an irrational deal, where it's like, you know, something irrational is happening, where it's either a large sum of money, or you get access to something that you can never get access to before. Or it's really, from the creator's decision perspective, a, like, status or... Status, or is that audience interesting to us?

1:13:53Yeah. Or net new audience, or... But you would never stop doing it on YouTube. Right. So it's a really interesting moment. I don't know how these worlds are going to collide yet. I'm really excited to try and figure it out because I think there's value to both sides. I don't think there's no way we can sit and be like, there's no value over there. There's so much value. Of course. But to solve that problem, I find, is really interesting. I also think there's just a talent pairing that can happen. When I watch docs on Netflix, occasionally there's some docs I don't like, but a lot of times I'm like, oh my goodness.

1:14:24Like this is some of the best storytelling I've ever seen. And I think that there's an opportunity to pair writers. I agree. With a lot of us who are making unscripted work. Not that we're not good writers. There's a lot of like phenomenal stories on YouTube and it's super raw and it plays to YouTube strength. But when I watch some of the docs that are on a Netflix or some of these streamers, I'm like, oh, okay, there's something, something a little bit different here. Occasionally in searching for the story. Yeah. I think that might be where it happens. It's like the meshing of talent. that's cool yeah but it could also happen on your channel you know like it doesn't true it doesn't happen like you could go to imdb and check out your favorite doc on netflix find out who wrote it and say hey would you write but i think that might be how it happens yeah we're like talent from you know traditional hollywood is actually getting pulled into because like again the budgets are going up the scale is up and that's often how we hire you know i mean now with with everything happening in Hollywood, like we are more and more hiring.

1:15:27Like there was a team of editors that we just recently collaborated with who, um, you know, were working with us for six weeks. They just got off the last of us. Wow. And now they were working with us editing challenge accepted. So, um, I think it's, it's really a matter of where is talent. And there are so many talented people who have worked on amazing shows and it's It's such a great privilege to collaborate with them now in a new way. So, at the beginning of the conversation, you talked about how, like, recreating this stunt was about... Or some of it was like, Michelle is YouTube's daredevil, Tom Cruise is, you know, kind of Hollywood's daredevil.

1:16:11Is there any part of it that's kind of like... showing Hollywood that you can do it too? Not just the stunt, but like making this piece. Does that make sense? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I mean, I do very blatantly say in the episode, I would love to do a stunt with you, Tom Cruise. That still remains. And I believe that when you get to a certain level of people who are at the top of their game, you have to rise to that occasion and show your own resume in the process. So for us, I think that was part of it. But I would say it was less so about let's show Hollywood what we're made of and more like let's show our audience on YouTube how much their support has, you know, like what their support can push us to do.

1:17:04I think this was more about us as creatives wanting to go that extra mile. Me as a stunt performer, Garrett as a director, Nick as a producer, Kevin as a DP, all of us just wanting to go, you know, to the nth degree. This is the stuff we watched when we were kids and we want to do it ourselves. And we found a way to do it ourselves. And it's fun. This is the sixth video, I believe, of the year. Right? Yeah. Whereas if you look at like, I was counting. Colin knows because he counted. No, I wasn't sure it was five or six, but I think this is the sixth. And the Try Guys, I was looking at their channel.

1:17:40I think they've published almost 50 videos this year. That's awesome. Right. So I think like people assume sometimes that YouTube operates like that, where it's just like, oh, there's always another video next week. Right. Our model is different. It's a scarcity model. If you want to have an episode of Challenge Accepted, there are only a handful. And, you know, it creates situations where multiple brands will want one episode and we have to work that out, you know? You know, another, you know, difference between our channel and others is we only have six full time staff. Now we expand and contract based on a project's needs.

1:18:18Some months that can be 15 to 20 people. Sometimes it's all the way back down to six. but I think we like to have at this point in our company stage at least that intimate group so that we can be nimble to be able to say no to things if they're not aligned creatively with what we want to do and is is this frequency or the lack of it feel ever as a problem for you guys or no meaning frequency of uploads so like Colin pulled these and I thought this was super interesting of just like some of our friends and uploads. Like Preston Goes has done five uploads this year. You guys have done six with this video.

1:18:56Cleo's done seven. Jimmy has had 15. We've had 15. Eric has had 17. Try Guys, 49. Ryan Trahan, 55. 50 of it were consecutive. We know we're 50. Which is insane. But I think about like the old school version of YouTube and like frequency being such a value proposition of YouTube. Like, almost in the way we spoke to, you know, the former showrunner of The Walking Dead. And he was talking about how when television moved away from week to week to a binge model, where it's like, here's ten episodes, go watch them all right now. YouTube filled the void of week to week. Right? Yes, I remember that from your interview.

1:19:43If you watch Marquez, if you watch MKBHD, it is pretty rare to go a week without watching MKBHD. So he's like a frequency creator, right? And then there is like the scarcity. And does that feel like, like does that feel ever to you guys like, oh man, I wish we were more frequent or we would have a deeper connection with our community if we were more frequent. Of course. If we could release an episode of Challenge Accepted at this magnitude every week, sign me up. I would love that. And then of course, you know, parlays into audience connection, frequency, being a part of someone's routine. We're honestly making these things as fast and as quickly as we possibly can while maintaining all of the, you know, tenets of greenlighting an episode that matter to us.

1:20:33Unfortunately, if we were to, you know, start just trying to make a ton more episodes, something would have to give. And at this point, we're too, you know, maybe to our own detriment, like beholden to like, oh, it's got to hit these marks or it's not challenge accepted worthy. When you finish in June actually doing the stunt, the next day, do you know exactly essentially the next challenge that you're doing? Like are you already, is everything in motion? Yes, we often film multiple challenges on top of each other. So while I was training for this, I was actually also training for the next challenge I'll be doing in November.

1:21:13which is uh you can tell us yeah i can tell you guys oh great um actually we haven't announced this yet so this is oh yeah oh my gosh we haven't yeah well great here you go i am going to be attempting something called the great world race which is running seven marathons on all seven in seven consecutive days. Oh, my God, Michelle. What? See, this is good data. This is a good reaction. Yeah. What's your first question? Yeah. My first question is how. Why? Okay, how? Yeah. How and what? Garrett's like, this is great. Well, that's what the episode's about. That's why I'm excited. And who else? Yeah.

1:21:57And who else? An insane group of people that I'm so excited to explore some of their stories. Yeah, I feel like pain when you say that to me. I just feel it. I'm like, that sounds painful. Yeah. So while I was, you know, waking up and going to a wind tunnel, I would come home and run 14 miles. Oh, my God. Sit in a nice bath, shower, answer 30 ,000 emails, take meetings. That's crazy. Do it all over again. And is there a winner of this challenge? Oh, yeah. There's like one person who wins it. Yes. And the person who won it last year is running it with me. His name is David Kilgore. He's a rebel athlete.

1:22:33Wow. He is incredible. But he will be doing it again this year. An actual honest question. Have the rest not been honest? Yeah, this is just like not about video making. How do you sleep comfortably at night knowing you always have something like this on the horizon? Because my assumption would be if I was doing this Tom Cruise stunt, I'd be like, I'm going to do the stunt so I can chill the next day. So I can not think about the next thing I have to do that's testing me that intensely. At least for a little bit. I would say that when we don't have a challenge on the schedule, I am way more stressed.

1:23:16Yeah. I was going to say, I think the thing that makes you calm is not going to be the thing that makes you calm. You know what I'm saying? Honest question. Yeah. It's hard for me to recognize in our personal relationship that you're also the person that I'm watching on the screen hanging out of the plane. Does that feel like, I mean, obviously you probably have this at way more intensity. It's very bizarre. But like when I watch you on the side of an airplane that's like flying in the sky, one of the craziest parts of that ending scene is like when it's turning. Oh my God, yeah. When the airplane is turning, it's like, what?

1:23:46And they're like, she's really going to feel it now. And you're like, because it feels like action figure Michelle, not our friend sitting right here. Well, that's why I think Samir, your note about including more of that in our episodes is a good one. to take. Um, even if it's like zoom calls or like FaceTimes with friends and family or like other creators, I think it'd be really interesting of like you telling them what the challenge is and seeing their reaction. I think that some of that coming through the episodes would be so interesting. Uh, cause even this, like this, this running one or like training with other, like going and running with Ryan, uh, for one of them or running with Amar at some point.

1:24:24Like, I think that's adding some of that life and having them ask you questions about what the experience is like can bring some of you know michelle our friend out yeah because i do think it's a lot of michelle the action hero where you're like holy shit she's so capable and that's like it's so fun to watch but there's also just that like but you're also just like the friend that we hang with yeah you know that's like you're the same person uh i don't know how to explain that yeah i love that note and i think like when we're in the weeds of like we have you know six weeks to pull the stunt off it's like i forget sure i forget sometimes that like oh we need to like we're gonna pick up a camera and roll on our phones for two hours and we might not use any of it but that's okay you know um i think yeah what you're saying samir is something we talk about a lot still in post and um actually our editor ryan gonzalez who did this episode um did an amazing job on it something he sort of was adamant about is at a certain point michelle becomes Superman.

1:25:26Right. And you really have to figure out how to make Superman relatable and humanize him. And of course, you have things like kryptonite and trying to figure out what is Superman's kryptonite in each episode. And for this episode, the one thing we can attach to Superman is Lois Lane. And I am the Lois Lane of this episode. And like the attachment that he has to her. But I think you're missing one character, which is Clark Kent. I like that and that's what I would say when is Michelle Clark Kent because that's what I'm suggesting can come through more yeah thank you I honestly loved bringing in the production team element as a storyline maybe it's just because we are so YouTube native but I think it just added this parallel storyline of pulling not just for you but for the whole crew and it did make me feel like oh this is youtube this is not like you're saying yes something that on netflix would be like oh it's just they would get it of course right and and that actually wasn't necessarily originally the plan well yeah the story initially is like michelle doing the stunt right um but sometimes when you have all that footage and then my one of my favorite moments in the edit process is when i step back for a second and let the editor take take charge so ryan gonzalez who did this episode he was watching through all the footage and he kept talking about how this story just kept jumping out of him out of the footage and it was the story of the crew now the crew pulled this off now we had recorded all the footage to support that story but that wasn't necessarily what my director brain right thought we were going to do going into it and so when he started saying that and he could show me and prove via the footage he was showing me like what if we you know what if we set you know set up uh michelle and steve's relationship and this is the biggest stunt he's ever done and we show a reaction here and that completes that arc.

1:27:19And he started telling me all these things that it resonated with me. And I go, wow, we can tell that story in this episode. We could have told this episode or we could have told that similar arc in our Houdini episode. We chose not to. It just wasn't the story for that. But for something about this, it was the right story to tell. And I was selfishly very excited about this because, you know, I think historically on YouTube, this would have been two videos. It would have been, here's the story of Michelle Stunt. Click to our second channel to watch the BTS of the crew. But the crew was the hero of this project.

1:27:57And I'm glad that we sort of like hit our vegetables in this of like, you know, this is the A storyline. So what do you hope? Like this video comes out, by the time this comes out and people are watching this, your video will be out. What do you hope happens? Like, what happens as this video hits YouTube and goes out into the world? I hope that the Burj Khalifa will allow me to climb it as number one. Maybe they'll see that we're serious. I really hope at the core that our audience is inspired and excited and feels, you know, validated and yet again, another long wait for an episode from us. and I hope that other creators see this and feel excited and inspired to go the distance in their own projects more.

1:28:51I mean, as we mature in the show and as creators who've been doing this longer and longer, I get even more excited when other creators, you know, feel inspired to go the extra distance with their own work too. And I really just want other content creators to know that they can and that they will and that you can go after a really big idea. Totally. As someone who grew up filming videos with my neighbors on like a DV camera, DV tape camera, and uploading those videos to YouTube when I was 12, 13 years old to now, like this video, it's really special to me because it sort of became a love letter to creating on YouTube and creating things independently and on our own.

1:29:40So I hope that can inspire those people who were where we were back then. I can say I think for sure you did that because I watched it 100 % at the end. I was like, wow, I think we can pull something off bigger than maybe we've pulled off before. And I think seeing you talk about your story in the piece as well of where you started at BuzzFeed and the types of challenges that you were pulling off and getting to meet the crew by the end of the piece, 100%, as a creator watching it, you totally believe and feel inspired to do something a little bit bigger than maybe you've done before. It just confirmed to me that I'll continue to say no to plane situations.

1:30:23Good, that's okay too. Don't invite me to your plane situations. Right. Don't try it. Plane situations. Sean McCormack. I think Sean's going to ask you for it. Don't call me. I'm not doing a plane thing. I think we should coordinate. Yeah. Let's talk to Sean. I will. Well, I can't say on camera what our next, next project is, but I will tell you after this and I think you're going to lose your mind. It's not quite a plane situation. It's a train situation? It's up there. Got it. It's a space situation. What else is up there, Michelle? What else could it be? It's a hot air balloon situation? How many other situations could there be?

1:31:01All right, guys. Well, thanks so much for coming on again. Thanks, guys. Thank you.