Jake Shane: from TikTok to Hollywood

24:22We didn't. You're like, I have nothing in common. Who does that in the beginning of an episode? But you were like, but it makes for an interesting watch. Yes. And I love, I love watching it and like seeing how comfortable, like even I and the guest gets like throughout the whole thing, like especially in like the Charlie XCX one, like I was very intimidated at first. And then by the end, like, you know, like we like, we're like friends at that point. And it was, it was awesome. It's awesome. I love when that happens. You also do something with therapists that I actually took a lot of inspiration from.

24:50Of course, you get like big name guests and there will be an element of people are searching for Glenn Powell. Right. So whether they know you or not, it's like, oh my gosh, there's Glenn Powell. I'm going to watch that. But you also, no matter who it is, the first like five to 10 minutes, the guest isn't even on the show yet. And you're just talking to the audience about whatever you want to talk about that week, whether it's like Beyonce's album art coming out or like an album, a different album, a song you really like or something like that. And that I think is really important that you're setting the tone that like, before Glenn Powell, my audience actually comes first.

25:26Yeah. You know what I mean? My audience comes first always, always. Which I think we actually have a lot of fear around that in the way that we do some of our interview episodes. I don't think if we were to have Ed Sheeran on the show right now, we would take the first five to 10 minutes to just riff with each other and show like our friendship and what matters to us before we get to Ed. Because we'd be like, oh, you'll leave. They came for Ed Sheeran. No, my thing is like, if you're coming on Therapist, like you're in for the bet. Like this is, this is, this is Therapist. Like you see it in the Ed Sheeran episode where I started off with, hi, pussies.

26:01He's like, go take it back. And I don't flinch because I'm like, no, you're either doing this. They're like, are we doing this or what? Like where you're in for the bet or you're not. Hi, pussies. Welcome back to therapy. what a way to start i really respect that i think like that's how you grow a community that will show up for you in theaters thank you yeah by the way just to go back to your tour the new york palladium seats i think 2100 people and that is sold out and i just i don't know i just like took a step back and i was like 21 cities with these venues in the thousand plus range. It's fucking hard.

26:39I know. That's been my favorite, favorite. Oh my God. Back to your question about what's a moment where you're like, this feels possible. I'll tell you. I was in Fayetteville, Arkansas with Louise and I had never done any live thing ever. And I was speaking at the University of Arkansas. And I was like, I just like was in this really weird place where I just come up with the idea for Therapist and we had just decided to do it, but there was no cover art. There was no episodes. There was no, we didn't have like Nolan yet. Like we had nothing. And I just was, I was feeling, I couldn't do the skits at the time.

27:14I was so insecure. I was so insecure. And I was like, no one's going to show up for me. And they all showed up for me in Arkansas. And I was like, oh, I love being on stage. Like 40 people could be here right now and I would be having the time of my life. So I think like, I think touring is going to be like my favorite thing in the entire world. I heard you say that you thought live touring would help bridge the gap between you being a digital creator and someone who's more a part of traditional media. Why do you think that? Just to show that I can do it unfiltered. I don't need post-production.

27:48I can get up there and make you laugh without having to go back and edit. That's kind of how I thought about it. I don't know if that's... Yeah, that makes sense. That is the essence of hosts on live TV. Who can do it? like Andy Cohen on New Year's Eve or watch what happens live. Like he's just good. Yeah. I think I just want to show people like I can play off a crowd. I can come prepared. I can perform. I can entertain you. So can we go back to the therapist first episode? Because you said you came prepared for that in terms of like segmenting out the show. Again, back to my perspective on you being a writer, like that is a writer thing to do, right?

28:27Like let's write the show. Let's write formats and segments. I imagine you're doing that for the live show, obviously. Yes, but you got to be careful because part of my humor is the off-the-cuff unpreparedness. Sure. So like I'll have prompts, but like I won't write out the rest of the bit. Got it. It's like, okay, like bullet points almost. Like, okay, what am I pissed about today? This is what I'm pissed about. I'll talk about that. I'll riff off of that. It's a lot of riffing. Got it. Yeah. Yeah, and that comes from, I feel like that was really shown in the comments. Like you reacting to comments on TikTok.

29:02So when I think about what Colin said about therapists, that it's like your show, you're in your world. Right. Like that also exists at the back half. Like the Collins are unbelievable. Those are so fun. Like people reacting to you calling them is so fun. That, sorry, continue. Well, I was just going to say that there is this thing that's maybe subconscious, but as an audience member to hear the embodiment of yourself in another audience member, I actually think is really important where it's like, this is, I'm not alone here. There's real people listening and as engaged as I am. And I am one of them.

29:41And then you start living in the world of, literally, I was listening to an episode yesterday and I was like, what if I called in? What would that be like? What would I talk about? And there's a level of engagement that's very different when you do something like that? Everything I've done that's worked has been because it's interactive with my audience. I'm very close with them. Like we talk all the time, like really and truly, like every Wednesday in the YouTube chat, like we're talking, how was your week? What's going on? And just the Collins felt very natural. It was like, let's call, let's, you guys are like, let's make you guys a part of the show.

30:16Yes. Like I don't have a live audience, but I have you guys and like, let's start calling in. Let's just have fun with it. So can you talk to me about some of the differences between Instagram, TikTok, and YouTube? Because when I look at YouTube also, your short form content on YouTube doesn't hit in the same way, right? Like you posted some of your TikToks to YouTube. But culturally, those are very different environments. And yeah, I'm just curious your perspective on those three. I don't really know how to, as I said, I didn't really grow up on YouTube. So I don't really know how to maybe crack YouTube would be the, I mean, I do my podcast and put that on YouTube, but that's about as far as I'm like good with YouTube.

30:57But TikTok and Instagram, it's funny. I take Instagram way less seriously than I take TikTok. And I remember it's the week TikTok blew up. Everyone was like, or my account like really blew up. Everyone was like, okay, well, you should start posting on Instagram, posting on Instagram. And I was like, well, what if I just like post on it? Like, like a, like a, like a spam account kind of. And, um, that's what I did. And people really gravitated towards it. And then I was like, okay, I'll just keep doing that. And then like, I don't know, like, it's just Instagram feels more casual to me. I don't know, maybe because I have a bigger audience on TikTok.

31:37So you feel like the stakes are high, right? Do you feel that way? If like you're to post a TikTok right now, do you feel like the stakes are high or no? Do you feel like - It seriously, like depends on the day. Sometimes I'm like, it could not matter any less. And then sometimes I'm like, this TikTok will be on CNN by tomorrow at three. Like really and truly. Yeah. How do you rank them from a business perspective? Like the importance of TikTok versus Instagram versus YouTube? I think

32:07when you have a lot of subscribers on YouTube, I think that holds the most longevity. I think. Because that's like long form content. You have 9 million subscribers on YouTube subscribing to your long form content. Yeah. I think that holds a lot of like longevity if that makes sense. Yeah. I think TikTok is the most zeitgeisty but also the most fleeting in a sense. So it can go away just as fast as it comes. And I think Instagram is kind of smack in the middle. yeah it's interesting Instagram is like such a weird I have such a weird relationship with it because I think of where like where it emerged in my life you know what I mean like when it first emerged like we were so we were adults right when it emerged you know what I mean we were in our 20s so it was just like were you in your 20s when Instagram right no you weren't no yeah I think we were I think we were like 20 I mean we're both 35 so yeah shock that was Jake realizing he should get off this show.

33:08No, I'm just saying, no. He was like, Louise? We're leaving now. Call the car. I'm just saying, I was like, no, you must have been a teenager. I know, but then I remembered I was 12, so you were 20, 23. Yeah, but it was strange. It was strange. When it came out. I didn't know what to do with it. I just have like a weird relationship with it now. Like, I just don't get it anymore. It's like a place where like, it's a weird place where my friends are, but also like people are making money and there's professionals on it too. And it just doesn't, it doesn't like connect. How does Jake Shane make money?

33:37What's the business of being Jake Shane? Brand deals. Podcast audio deals.

33:50Tour. Tour. Tour. I try not to like think about it. It gives me anxiety. Okay. I get like really bad like financial anxiety. Oh, good. I just like remember I grew up during like, I just remember like I remember the recession really well. and I remember like everyone fighting and I just like ever, I just like, I have a lot of financial anxiety from that. Like I just like, I'm always anxious about like losing money and like, so I try not to think about it and I try not to spend a lot either. Interesting. Yeah. And is that like, so you don't pour yourself into like deeply under, you're not like making spreadsheets and deeply understanding your finances.

34:28You're more like just someone else, handle that, let me. As long as I can do like simple things, like we're good. Like as long as like I don't drive, can I Uber? Like I can Uber, we're good. Is there a way that you like making money versus not? Meaning like brand deals for creators is typically the lion's share of everyone's revenue, right? Like it's either brand deals, a mix of brand deals or advertising from the platforms, right? And then there's obviously podcast, host read podcast, ad reads, there's touring. But like when you look at your career over the next three, five years, is there a particular way you want to be, like projects that you want to be doing and that's what's driving your income?

35:07Or are you okay with like a healthy mix across all these things? I'd like, I would like, I want to turn therapists into a modern day, like late night for Gen Z. Cool. And that is how I want to make my money. Cool. I want to turn it into like a modern day Ellen DeGeneres show for Gen Z where there's performances and there's people, talent and whatnot. But that is, when I started Therapist, I quickly realized that I wanted to feel like a modern day late night show. I'm curious about how you see that concept of like a late night show materializing. Cause you're clearly like a TV fan. Yeah. Like you've come from an era or you've just enjoyed television.

35:53And we come from the time where like, you turned on the TV and just whatever was on was on it. So like, that was like, yeah, that was it. It was prehistoric times. Old. But how do you see that showing up? Is that like on YouTube? Is that like, what does that look like? What does the modernization of a late night show look like? Because a lot of the - On a streamer. On a streamer. On a streamer. Because Jimmy Kimmel recently said that like late night's gone. No, it's not. In 10, 15 years. Well, that's if someone doesn't pick it up and save it. Yeah. And I think there's a great crop of young comedians.

36:26And I think it's absolutely saveable. And how do you make it? Like, what's the next iteration of it? Like when you think about different formats or like, is it the same kind of thing as late night? Like guest comes on, promo a thing. And it's just the way you're communicating. It's the same thing, but you're communicating differently in a way that Gen Z can understand and wants to understand. Talk to me more about that. Like, you know what I mean? How does Gen Z want to? They want a casual conversation. Like they want to sit there and like, just they don't want, Gen Z's smart. Gen Z's smart. They know when you're there and you have pre-approved stories and you're sitting there PR prepped and you're just giving answers.

37:04Like if you're just like coming up and you're talking shit for 20 minutes, like that's gonna work and people are gonna care about that and want to see that. People like to see celebrities in really casual settings. Yeah, I actually think a great example of that is, we brought it up so many times with the Glenn Powell interview on Therapist. Oh, thank you. Because there was like his, that story he told about his sister's friend. Yeah. And like that going on a date and then finding out this guy's a cannibal, like that traveled. that story traveled quite a bit. I didn't even know as far as it traveled until it showed up on my friend's boyfriend's Twitter.

37:37So that means it was on straight Twitter. It was on my Twitter. Yep, yep. And I was like, shut the fuck up right now. And then, yeah, when I really knew, yeah, that's when I really knew. I was like, oh my God, I think I have a good thing going with this podcast. But that in the traditional late night setting, that would have to run through a producer and be like a pre-approved story. Exactly like you said. Like late night, the way it works. Late night, the way it works now. People don't know how late night works today. It's like you get on call with a producer, you run through these stories, then host is going to prompt you into those stories.

38:11You stay on track with the agreed upon narrative. Right. Right. So in a late night world today, Glenn's going on Colbert or something like that, or one of the late night shows, he's probably not telling the cannibal story. Right. But to the credit of streamers, they are doing things differently. Like what John Mulaney did with everybody from LA. Like that was strange and weird and different. Or Kai Sanat. Or Kai Sanat. Like some of these things, yeah, he's like going live from like a deli in New York City. People are just reimagining what this looks like. And I think, yeah, a lot of it happens on Twitch.

38:41A lot of it happens on YouTube. But I do think there's this area opening up on streamers, like you're saying, that like it's not going to be on cable, right? No, yeah. They're just like, they're too stiff. They're too stuck in those ways. And they have too many restrictions. But streamers actually can pick up that show. And they might even be able to pick it up in a way where it's like, we actually don't have a set amount of time that you're going to speak to the celebrity. We actually have like wiggle room and it's just going to go. Right. So like, what's the worst that can happen? Someone watches for an hour?

39:07Right. And maybe that means less a week because, you know, late nights every night, maybe that means less. Maybe that means once or twice a week. But it like, it would still be there. It would still be happening. I don't know. I actually think my next guest, David Letterman, was a cool, I love my, I love that one. It's a cool iteration. I love that one. That's a big inspiration for us of where we want to go. It's like in the future, instead of just doing this, there's an element of us like going to your live show or something. It's intermixed. Yeah, that's really cool. I see that. I actually think the necessity for it is not just like, okay, we need late night to be reimagined.

39:44We also need a healthy bridge between the traditional entertainment business and digital platforms. That's so funny you mentioned that. That was my goal for Therapist. I wanted to bridge traditional media and digital media together because they are, they are like, they should be together or like they are becoming together. And there's not really like a late night show that has a strong traditional media guest and like a healthy mix of both. And I wanted a mix of both on mine. Yeah. And because from the audience perspective, they're spending their time watching across just whatever is interesting.

40:22They're giving their attention across both. and it's kind of weird how segmented they've been, right? I guess it's natural, but I do feel like you, the thing that we've talked about is that you are bridging it. Yeah. And it's cool to hear that that was your intention because it does feel like that. And you know who else was really good at that? It was Ellen DeGeneres. Yeah, true, true. Yeah. Oh yeah, you're right. She was really good at that. She was really good at that. Even like her pranks and stuff that would show up on you. Yeah. Or even just like, and these were more bits, but like when there would be a viral sort of breakout star on a platform, she would have them on the show.

40:54The damn Daniel kids. Yeah, the damn Daniel kids. The Thea Grace and Rosie. Yes, yeah. She was very good at understanding what was culturally relevant and immediately hopping on that. Yeah, that's a good comp. I like that. But she wasn't from the world. Sure. Which is very different for you. Yeah. Right. Where does your desire for acting fit into that future? I don't know. I kind of, with acting, I was like, if I throw myself into it, I know I'm going to hear no so many times. So I need to pursue other things on top of that. And if acting works out, then amazing. But like, I like Glenn told me, he was like, folk, trust me, Jake, like focus on your podcast.

41:39He was like, focus on your podcast. If acting comes, it will come. But like, you have a good thing going with this. Like, don't, don't like not care about it just because you want to do like acting. Your historical reenactments on TikTok feels so prime for SNL specifically. If SNL called, would you take that call? Would you go? Would you move mountains to do that? Of course I would. You would? Yes, it's SNL. You have so much going on right now. You sound like Louise. For context, Louise is your manager. Yes. Yes. Yes. But yeah, it's SNL. Of course I would. I love like... Is that something you care enough about to pursue?

42:24Yes. Yes. I love... I don't know why I'm saying this like angrily. Sorry. It seems like you're getting upset with Colin. The tone that we have is that I'm attacking you with praise. No, do you ever like say something and you're like, oh my God, that was my Debbie Ryan moment. That literally lost on me. You don't... Yeah. I'm always on the move. You don't... You've never seen the clip. Do you want to cue it? Yeah, like we'll probably be right here. Okay, cue it. Well, I think we're going to have to watch it to give any reaction to it after. Oh, you want me to pull it up? Louise, will you pull up the, please, Debbie Ryan on the red carpet?

42:58It's seriously exceptional. And every time I speak, sometimes I'm like, that was my moment. That I just sounded like that. So that was just the Debbie Ryan moment. Or like, have you seen the clip of Selena Gomez being like, we got a little pink going on? You've never seen that either? I've not seen that. You got it up? I just feel like I didn't do the right prep. Okay. This is it. I went into the Disney Channel building and I sat down with the president of Disney Channel and I said, I want to make history. And that's what this is. She's like, I'm always on the moon. That's what I sound like. Yeah, so if that's when I was called, I would answer.

43:31But you're a New York kid too. Yes. Did you grow up going to the theater in Manhattan? Yeah, I was my mom. Yeah. Like was performance and theater like a big part of your childhood? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I loved going to Broadway plays with my mom. saw Wicked Fun Home Mamma Mia and when was the moment where you were like oh I'm gonna be a performer so it's funny you say that because I actually was like so I'm not gonna be a performer like I did theater as a kid and then it was like I got to high school and I was like no I can't I can't be doing I can't do this and I was just too like insecure and too shy so I didn't pursue it and then like by like junior year I was like just very focused on getting into, or by sophomore year, actually, I was very focused on getting into the school I wanted to get into.

44:22And then after that, I was like, I'm going to be, I'm going to work in PR. So I spent my summers doing like internships and jobs, like in like marketing and PR. And I was like, this is like, that's what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna work in PR, like maybe I'll be a publicist. And then I went to school and still performing was the last thing on my mind and then I um COVID hit and I remember like feeling like like why am I like having regrets right now like you know what I mean like didn't you guys have like regrets during COVID you're like why am I like having regrets right now that was a moment to like reevaluate your entire self and you're like why and I was like why didn't I pursue what I wanted to as a kid like obviously I'm happiest when I'm like making people laugh and on stage I was like why didn't I do that um Um, and then, so I just, but still I, and then I was interning at the time at a record label, um, which ended up turning into a full-time job, which I could not have been happy.

45:19It was probably the happiest I've ever been. I was like this, I love music so much. I loved working in music. I loved the people I worked with so much so that my boss became my manager. Like he made the environment so comfortable that like I showed up to work like as my full self, which I kind of guess led me here is how I like. Yeah. Meaning like at work, you got to laugh and you felt comfortable. Yes. Yes. Yes. And I would show him like videos that I would make and he would laugh instead of being like, what? Like, no. Like he was always like, you know, if anything ever happens, I'll manage you.

45:54And then like two years later, like when something happened, he was, he actually. That's really cool. That's a lot of validation then. That's big from like you in high school who thinks I can't do this. Yeah. Like this is something that won't work for me. I'm not that type of person. to being essentially like a young adult in that environment and, oh, I can. Like, people believe in me. It's all about who you surround yourself with. I'd imagine that there's like going into PR or like entertainment behind the scenes or entertainment tangential. I imagine there's so many people, including myself, who have a deep fear of like, I actually want to be the performer, but I'm a little too scared and that's too aggressive of a dream.

46:30So I'm going to go behind the scenes. Yeah, I think that's what I thought. I was like, I want to work in entertainment. But I kind of, I didn't like, notoriously, I do love attention. Like, I think I wanted to be the, I know I wanted to be the entertainer. And for me, that became very clear when I saw you post these videos to Instagram. Did you like the book to begin, can you turn the sound off? Mm-hmm. Did you like the Harry Potter book to, did you like the Harry Potter, did you like the Harry Potter books to begin with? or did the movies just ruin it? What was I reviewing in that? Oh, Harry Potter.

47:06Harry Potter. You know, I hadn't even seen Harry Potter. I hadn't even seen it. But like to have the guts to like sit in front of a camera and do that. I just had no fear. And then suddenly I got to middle school and I was like, wait, nope, never mind. But you also have self-awareness in that video. Like you're rehearsing the right intro for the Harry Potter review and you do it once and you're like, that's stupid. to something. That's not going to work. And I'm looking at this little kid, and I'm like, how does he know that when it comes out of his mouth that, oh, that wasn't right. I need to redo it.

47:39I think it's because my parents are very, like, they were always very, like, cautious of, like, what—because, like, that swings both ways, right? Because, like, it's great that I have self-awareness, but then I'm also, like, too self-aware to the point where I, like, care about what everyone says about me. So, like, that's kind of, like, my parents were kind of like that. And so I think I kind of just adopted that from them. And then I also watched a lot of like pop culture stuff as a kid. I like, and like pop culture shows. So I don't know if you remember like best week ever on VH1. Yeah, of course.

48:14So it was a lot of like people behaving and then being perceived. So I think maybe that's where I like learned how, like, how, like, okay, if I'm going to do it this way, like people are going to, I don't know. Yeah. No, but actually the deep understanding on how people perceive things. Yeah. is a common trait among successful creators, right? Obviously, because you're essentially putting things out into the world and then gauging perception. And I actually think brand perception is weighted much higher than traditional performance metrics today. Meaning viewership, subscribership, whatever. Like your brand in the world, and your brand, I would say specifically, is very big and it does feel very premium.

48:57which I think I look at that and I'm like, oh, that is not easy to do. Oh, thank you. But you have to have an understanding of how people are going to receive something. Right. But when you look at those videos, do you think that kid in those videos, like what would he think about where you are today? Oh my God, he'd be the happiest person in the entire world, which is what I have to remind myself sometimes. He would literally like think I am living his dream amongst dreams amongst dreams. Because I don't even think I thought it was a possibility. No, I must have thought it was a possibility back then if I was doing those.

49:32But I don't know. I mean, I don't know. He would be over the moon. But you might not be so aware of the outcome at that time. At least for me, when I was making videos with my brother, like I wasn't, all it was for was to watch it back. Right. Or to show a friend and to be like, oh my God, isn't this crazy? We made this. Oh, I was uploading them. You're uploading them to Tumblr, correct? A critic's point of view. Dot Tumblr. And then I also had a fashion blog. Did you receive any feedback on that stuff? Yeah, my mom was like, you should brush your hair. But like, were there people who'd come across the video?

50:03No, I would get too scared. I would delete them. I would delete them. And I'm like, how at 11 years old was I like, I have to delete that. You know what I mean? Yeah. It's very Bo Burnham, eighth grade. Like the beginning. You've never seen it? Never seen eighth grade. What's that? I think that movie opens and it's like a girl in eighth grade in her room making a YouTube video. And she's like starting and stopping and starting and stopping. And you can tell she has this deep other lens that's looking at her objectively. Right. And I think that's something that maybe our generation, like we were lucky to not grow up with.

50:38Yeah. But your generation very much so is like always aware of that other eye of like, how will I be perceived? Yeah. That's a tough way to grow up. I would imagine. I'm very thankful that I did not grow up that way. It's not fun. I don't even remember the time in which I remember. I do. I like remember like the feeling of being perceived. But I don't. I think maybe like sixth grade is when like things started to shift. And I like switched schools in seventh grade. And I was. That was like real. Like sixth to seventh was like the real. Oh, I'm like being perceived. And like how is that going to affect my decisions?

51:13I mean, obviously, I thought I was being perceived in that video. but not in like, not in like such an extent that I was like, I need to be not that myself. Yeah. And then throughout high school, was it like, did you have peers that were also into performance and entertainment? Were you watching YouTube at the time? Like what, what were you into? I wasn't watching YouTube. I was, I didn't start watching YouTube until like, like my freshman year of college, my senior year of high school. I watched a lot of, I'm a big binge watcher. Okay. So there was like a lot of shows I watched. I watched Scandal.

51:49I watched Shameless. I watched Homeland. I watched, what were my, Breaking Bad. I watched, trying to think of like all the shows I watched in like high school that I would like come to school talk. I mean, I was a big Gleek, but like by high school I was not. Same. You were? Big time. Who was your fave? Who was my favorite member of Gleek?

52:09I don't know. I don't think I had like a specific member that I really felt like attached to. Colin didn't watch Glee. No, no, no. I mean, I remember like... Wait. I remember thinking like... Did you watch Glee? Yeah, wait. No, I remember thinking like... It seems like you didn't watch Glee. It seems like you didn't watch Glee. No, I did watch Glee. You can't tell me your favorite number? As in like the favorite song that they sang? Did you just lie? Okay, all right. Did you just lie? I did not lie. I was a big fan of Glee and I really enjoyed Kurt and his relationship with Cory Montice's character.

52:39I thought that was like a lovely relationship and I thought it was a very important show. Does it feel like he read a Wikipedia article about Glee? No, I was like, but I... What was Cory Monteith's character name? Yeah, like... Yeah, see, that's where I... Are you? Seriously? I know, but I did watch Glee, but it was a long time ago for me. Are you nuts that you're going to bring up Glee? I'm just getting nervous. Thin, test Thin. Thin, I'm sorry. I just got nervous that I was getting tested on how big of a fan of Glee I was, but I was a big fan. I was a big Gleek. Yeah, okay, so I was not as big a Gleek.

53:03My favorite performance is... But you can attest that I did come in... He did not have your back. he did not have your back my favorite performance is paradise by the dashboard light do you remember that okay cool it's amazing so you didn't watch youtube is what you're telling us when you started being aware of like the internet and people making videos on the internet who were some of the first creators you were aware of um tana mojo okay olivia olivia jade to me just back to the like who is jake shane it's in the way that you address your community and the way that your community engages with you.

53:41And I think that is so hard to do, but it can only happen if you are actually that person. Right. You have to, well, I always say that - If you're authentically a member of your own community. Especially in TikTok, like with every social media platform, I feel like authenticity is like, not re-imagined, but like further emphasized. So like on TV, you're playing a character. On YouTube, you kind of have to be authentic, but you can still play a character on TikTok. Like you have to be who you are or else you will get be caught out. And I think I knew that. And I was like, I just like have to be so myself or this isn't going to work.

54:19Like once I accepted that I am like transparent and like there's no hiding anything I feel ever. Like that's when like it really like I really made the connection with people. Okay. Can you explain this quote I read from you that? No, it's not. It's not a bad one. You said, I feel like as the podcast gets bigger, I'm losing control of my narrative. Yeah. What does that mean? As it gets bigger, I feel a little more in the public eye than I was before, which I love. I love, as everyone knows. I love attention. But I also like to be in control of that attention. So when I'm like, as the podcast gets bigger, things get clipped that I'm not clipping.

55:08And then people do with that what they will. And just something that I'm having trouble dealing with. Oh, that's interesting. I understand that. I mean, a lot of what gets clipped from our show is about money. I know that when you guys asked me about money, I was like, fuck. But like the majority of our episodes is not actually about money. But that can often be the perception. Yeah. because of the clips. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. How much money do you have, Jake? I'm kidding. I'm kidding.

55:45Thanks, guys. Yeah. But that is, I mean, I do think money and creativity, it's like, it's a weird mix because like you first get into it as just like pure, like, oh, I want to be, I want to perform. I want to do something interesting. And then all of a sudden, all these other factors come at you, right? Whether it's like this large group of people looking at you, right? So a big audience that has your attention. And then people cutting your show in different ways. So interacting with your content. And then money as like a validation source and also a ticket to other things. And then status as another thing that you now all of a sudden get to go to certain things or be a part of certain groups.

56:18Out of those things, like how would you rank what motivates you the most? Is it just pure creative output? or are there some of these other factors that play into what motivates you to continue creating? To continue? Yeah. Attention. I'm so, I don't want to be irrelevant. Like I don't want to be forgotten. My number one fear is being forgotten. So like I just want to make sure that people say I'm here. Why is that one of your fears? Did you feel like that as a kid? There's a Taylor Swift quote. She says, no one wanted to play with me as a little kid. So I've been scheming like a criminal ever since to make them love me and make it seem effortless.

56:59This is the first time I felt the need to admit, confess. I swear I'm only cryptic and Machiavellian because I care. So that is the quote I would buy. So that's why. Yeah, I just did. i've also read a quote of you talking about tiktok being kind of the evolution of reality tv and i'm i said that you said reality tv in the early 2000s what why did i say that it was well let me it was with forbes you were saying that it's gotten more real sometimes i just speak it was great really but it was profound read me the quote yeah i can read you the exact quote Give me a second, Jake. I have a lot on you.

57:48A lot of dirt on you. Oh, whoa. Yeah. Oh, those are my tour dates. Yep. There they are. Okay, one second. Oh, wow. I think people really want to see other people's lives. It's almost like TikTok is kind of like what reality TV felt like in the early 2000s. Period. You said that in Forbes. Yes. So I'm curious for you, like that has been kind of the evolution, right? Like there's been the democratization of voice has created us seeing people's lives, getting a much more raw version of reality TV. What do you think the next evolution is of media? I don't know. I don't think you know. You don't know.

58:28It's Puss and Poems. Puss and Poems. I don't think you know. It's not like I would have told you, oh, it's TikTok back when reality TV was happening, you know? But yeah, fair. Hindsight's 20-20. But we might've been able to been like, as the Kardashians were growing and the real world was growing, like all that, We might have been like, we want more real. I think digital media is going to become way more traditional. Well, what is digital and what is traditional? Because everything we watch is on the internet. Everything is an internet video, right? I know, I think it'll, but I think it will. Like independent versus produced.

58:57I think everything will just kind of mod podge into one at one point. Interesting. Can we ask you what is Thera pissing you off right now? Of course you can. My stomach hurts. Do you think it's the cocktail of liquids you've had? Yeah. I don't know. I'm pissed off about how like my stomach hurts and I can't stop thinking about it. I'm like, ugh, because I had like kava before. And like, I love kava, but I would like shut up and I was like, oh my God, Louise, like for my me to never have kava before like a podcast interview again. And she's like, girl, I could have told you that. And I was like, I know.

59:27And so that's, what are you guys therapist about? So I was at a restaurant the other night and we were doing like family style, right? And there's one plate. Now I'm a guy who I will clean a plate. I want everything on it. Same. Not because I'm hungry, just like I need it. I just need it. Yeah. Well, I need everything on it. Yeah. I strongly dislike when the waiter comes over and just takes it upon themselves to clear the plate without asking, without asking, or just like, and then you have to be like, wait. Yeah. Yeah. And there, yeah. And I never want to be the guy to go, wait, because it's just like one onion, right?

1:00:05And then you feel awkward being like, well, I'm still nibbling. That actually happened to me yesterday. I was like, wait, I'm still nibbling. And you don't have to say that. I'm still nibbling. And you always have to say nibbling. You can't say eating because it's such a small amount. So that bothers me a lot. To each their own, I get it. It also bothers me. What about you, Colin? I would say for me, the other day I went to a birthday party and I wore an outfit that I thought was like an A outfit. Like I thought it was my top billing. It didn't photograph well, did it? No. Oh my God. It looked like I had MC Hammer pants on.

1:00:37The bane of my existence. I didn't mean for them to be Jenko's, but they were Jenko's, and then I had this little top, and so I just looked all out of sorts and uneven, and I was like, who am I? Do I even have the body I thought I had? I once wore an outfit. I now call it Boobgate, and I was in my house, and I was like, okay, like, chic and cute. And when I would show people on FaceTime, like they would be like, man. And I was like, oh, well, you just don't get it. You're not in person. So I'm realizing that actually doesn't matter when you're going to an event anymore because it is how it photographs.

1:01:11I literally had double D's on the red carpet. It was, it was bad. It was, yeah. So I'm pretty traumatized from that experience. You know, the outfit from the art show. And the worst is when you're like going a little. That's the outfit. Yeah. I'm telling you, did not photograph. Well, I felt amazing. Wow. But it didn't. Well, it is surprising. I didn't feel bad. Surprising. Oh, my God. I'm thinking about it. But now it's like, was I walking around with all this confidence? Yet I looked. But confidence is fake. Right? That's what I learned in Pilates. Can you show Jake your TikTok? I'd rather not.

1:01:46Because Colin tried to make it on TikTok with like four or five. I didn't try and make it. Let me see. He tried to experiment. No, he tried. He wanted to inject himself out of this and wanted to be like, he wanted to Timberlake Gus with his TikTok. Leave the group? Yeah, leave the group. I do not want to leave the group. I never want to leave the group. I just want you to explain. I would rather you man the keys because I don't want to be a part of this. Okay, let me, I just want to show you. I really like this Bruce Springsteen shirt. Thank you, I appreciate that. And you know what? It's photographing well, I can see.

1:02:14Thank you, Jake. Yeah, thank you. Hey guys, so I've been thinking a lot about what my first TikTok's going to be and the first thing I thought about was what's the deal with the fact that we wear clothes all day and we cover our body all day but then we take off our clothes at night but then cover ourselves back up with a blanket. So why do we have a blanket at night but clothes during the day? I honestly think that could have worked if you kept going. Okay, that was my first one ever. Yeah. That's my first one ever. I mean, like, I was intrigued. At first I was like, what? And then I was like, wait.

1:02:41You always don't know how to be like, wait, he has a point. Like, you know what I mean? Like, he kind of has a point. Wait, does he have a point? Hold on. If you make that huge validation, can we break down the point? Also, this is years old. Like, I like. Yeah, I can. Yeah. It didn't work. I stopped. The camera quality. Yeah. It's higher. It's a potato chip. Yeah. So can we just break down what the issue was you were having? Because you were saying that we wear clothes all day. Yes. Then we take off our clothes. Yes. And then we put a blanket on. Yes. Well, the blanket's like weighted. So in a sense, it's weighted.

1:03:11It weighs you down and you fall asleep. I guess what I was getting at is it felt like this gray area where… You sleep naked? No. No, no, no. But like… So did you lie? But like, why do we have blankets and not just like pajamas? I do both. But I mean, shouldn't it just be pajamas and no blanket? Why? Then I'm cold. Here we are, Jake. Oh my God. We can talk about my sleep preferences. This is a very long second. For context, they asked me if I sleep cold before this interview started. And I said, oh my God, I will not talk about it. Wait for the podcast to start and I'll talk about my sleep preferences.

1:03:45Are you ready? Ready. The room is on 62 degrees. All times. Love that. All parts of the year. I don't care how cold it is outside. 62 degrees. If I could go lower, I would. Okay? What's stopping you from going lower? It doesn't let me. And my fan, I have a fan right next to me that blows in my face, just a constant stream. Okay. I used to have a bed jet. What is that? So it's a tube that you put under your bed that blows hot or cold air under. So when I would get out of the shower, I'd make it hot and I'd get all toasty. And then I'd make it cold because I hate being hot. But recently I got sent an eight sleep.

1:04:25Yeah. I want one. I want one badly. I need one. You hear that eight sleep? Yeah. I got sent in from talking about it on my podcast. So just life hack. And I put it on negative 10, which is the lowest it can go. You fucking guys. It is so cold. It feels wet. Like it is seriously like the cold side of the pillow on all sides. And then it wakes you up with hot vibrations. I need that yeah I'm getting so many eight sleep ads right now because I've like gone to the checkout but just not completed also do you well don't yeah I know that's what I'm saying this is a good opportunity do you remember do you remember when Jake said that he hadn't changed and Hollywood didn't get to him stop stop I told you that did I not tell you I said the one thing is my bed he makes an exception for that yeah I need that but by the way that's how cold I like the room same as well I need that Who the fuck likes it hot?

1:05:21My brother. My brother. It's like when someone's like, I like room temperature water. What is wrong with you? What's wrong with you? What do you mean? Yeah, I do. I do like room temperature water. Yeah. You also like liquid in a can. Water in a can. You like liquid in a can. Water. I meant water.

1:05:37So are you going to bring that whole setup on tour? Like the coolant, fan, everything. Oh. that bus is going to be an icebox. I don't give a fuck. Like, if that makes you uncomfortable, like, we don't need to sleep on the bus. Like, but I need it cold. I need it freezing. I need to be like chit-chit chattering. Like, I need to wake up like scrambling, like begging for heat. Like, I need it cold. Like near death night. Yes. I need it cold. Like, I'm trying to think of like a situation. Are you good in the cold plunge at Aloe? Yeah. Oh, you're good at it. I love the cold front. How long can you last?

1:06:17Three minutes. Oh, that's fine. That's really good, Jake. Thank you. I would pride myself on being pretty good at it. I mean, that's good. Good in the cold. Yeah. So do you like cold temperatures? Like, do you go to… If I could sleep in the snow, I would. Okay. Is how I describe it. Understood. Like, I… Yeah. I love cold temperatures. But then I'm like, ooh, like, I'm too cold. Like, I grew up in New York and, like, it would be really cold and then sometimes my hands would go numb. I don't like that. But my thinking is you can always add more layers once you're naked. You're like done for. I'd much rather warm myself up and try and cool myself down.

1:06:47Well, thank you to Ate Sleep for sponsoring this episode. Allie, can you call Ate Sleep? Allie! That was fun. Okay, thanks Jake. Thanks guys, thank you. Okay, welcome to the debrief for our episode with Jake Shane. I think if there's anything that you all should take away from this, it's that I have a long career ahead of me making very short vertical videos. Dude, honestly, I didn't. He could have been like, that's awful. I just have to say, I, first of all, knowing you, it is surprising you published those videos. I thought no one sees what you post on TikTok. I really, in the beginning, I was like, oh, this is cool.

1:07:27Cause no one's here. And knowing you, it's surprising you haven't continued. Those are like two things. How do you know? I haven't. You have. They have like a secret. No, you don't. Secret talk. You know, I would know. You would know. Okay. Um, Jake said so many hilarious things on this episode, but he also has some really insightful, uh, things that I've repeated many times after this episode. Um, and I wanted to talk about the, the three things that I think make up this recipe of the modern creator of like, what, what is this next version of a creator look like? And the first thing that really stuck out to me that Jake has is this radical authenticity.

1:08:08And that word is used so like ad nauseum in our space. Yeah. But he put it into a sentence that I had never heard before and I've repeated many times, which is that it should feel like you're on FaceTime with a friend. And what I think is really interesting about Jake is that he started in a world where it does feel like that, right? On TikTok, he's like being really honest and vulnerable and open. But when he went from short form to long form, he kept that. Like when you get Ed Sheeran or you get Joe Jonas or you get Brittany Broski on Therapist, it feels like you're on FaceTime with them too.

1:08:53And he has created environments for that authenticity that is, I think, required because audiences can just feel when it's not real. And specifically when you are a podcast host, it is really easy to play to the guest's energy. Of course. And there are times when - We do that, yeah. I mean, we did that with Jake, right? Like Jake has a certain type of energy and we play to that energy. Yeah, yeah. But I give a lot of credit to him for just maintaining who he is no matter who comes into his orbit. Yeah. The one thing that you brought up that I think is so important is that no matter the guest, he opens with his own monologue to the audience.

1:09:29And not actually a monologue. It's like he says like his tummy hurts one day or something. Yeah, it's not even about the guest. No. So he's like, see, okay. He's filtering for people who just like him and like hanging out with him. You cannot be a part of that community if you click on a video and you're like, where's Ed Sheeran? Which is kind of like late night. Yeah, actually it is exactly. Late night has all of these recurring guests, but you don't tune in. for the guest that night. People don't even really know. Like you tune in because you like, whether it's Colbert or Myers or Fallon or Kimmel, you pick one of them and you're like, that's the person I like hanging out with.

1:10:07So I think the future with this world of radical authenticity, one is that the creator has to be confident that the audience is there for them, not for the idea, right? Or not for the guest. And I think we've seen that a few times in the world. It's not anything novel. The thing about Jake that's so interesting is he has such a premium brand. He's now playing in the world of like, you know, Hollywood and traditional entertainment, but he also just put out a comedy album and put it out on his YouTube channel. Like I looked at that and like on the therapist YouTube channel in my world, I look at that and I come from a different generation of, of, you know, content creation, I guess.

1:10:47But I look at that and I'm like, that seems crazy to put it out on the same YouTube channel as your podcast that has like a really consistent brand and really consistent thing. But he's like irrationally authentic. Like even when he was here, he was like playing us his music and singing it. And he was just like, yeah, he was exactly the same off camera as he was on camera. Fuck it. I want to put out my album here, you know? And I think that there's a lot less fear that you can sniff out from an audience perspective and a lot more just like, yeah, that's what he's like. Yeah. It doesn't seem like he's making fear based decisions.

1:11:16Yeah. All right. So the second thing is that he invests really deeply in his community. every episode that he does with therapists has Collins. Yeah. And his community is calling in and telling him what their therapist about and getting the opportunity to speak with Glenn Powell and some of these guests that he has on. It's crazy. And I think that creates an incredibly mobile audience. Collins and like respect of the audience that they are a part of your journey constantly. And whether you're the person that gets the opportunity to call in or not, those call-ins are you personified in the episode.

1:11:57Yeah, for sure. And that results in being able to sell out to their 2 ,000-person venues. Because without that engagement with your audience and that investment in the community, I don't know. I mean, I don't know how it's possible to sell out those massive theaters that he's selling out. They have such a deep connection to Jake because he's talking to them on the episode. Yeah. And I, that might sound obvious, but I think it's actually overlooked that not that many creators, not that many creators do it. I would love to do it, but it's, it is like, you have to invest in that. You have to think about that and you have to figure out how to get those call-ins to happen in the show, how to make them interesting, how to create that rapport.

1:12:34He does a really good job at that. And I think the world of content is getting so vast that if I'm going to invest in a creator, I kind of want that creator to invest back in me. I want to feel the push pull of being a part of a community. And I think he does a great job at that. I would agree. What's number three? Number three is bridging the gap. And we talked about this, but I think the modern creator doesn't see a difference between traditional media and digital media. And I don't think Jake does. I don't think Jake walked into the world of content and was like, I am a TikToker, which means I am not a part of Hollywood.

1:13:11Yeah. He was thinking I'm a sketch comedian. I'm an interviewer. I'm a host. So it's not actually bridging the gap. It's almost forgetting about the gap and being like, the gap doesn't exist. Totally. I am an entertainer. Yep. And the screen is the same. The screen is the same. And I think, you know, one of the most interesting parts of this conversation is that Glenn Powell told Jake to invest in his podcast more when Jake said he wanted to get into acting. I actually think that's really good advice because the playing field of entertainment is starting to become one playing field. And when you have a thing that's catching fire, that is not a stepping stone to the other thing.

1:13:50It is the thing. It's the thing. Yeah. And And I think that's the thing is like as we – when we started on YouTube, YouTube was seen even by us as like, oh, cool. We'll do this to prove that we can get into the entertainment business. Yeah, to prove that we can make an episode of television. And we did that once, right? We did that. But – But I think this is the thing. We realized like we did make an episode of television quickly. That thing, that episode went out and we worked so hard on it. And you're like, wait, I don't – are there comments? How many people saw it? I couldn't grasp it. Yeah.

1:14:23And so you realize, yeah, the thing that I'm doing is just the thing. So I think that's the thing. It's like the modern creator does not acknowledge the gap. I think Jake is like the embodiment of that. He's not like, here's digital, here's traditional. It's just like, here's entertainment. Here's what I make. Yeah. So that's my perspective on why he's the blueprint. I like it. Overall, loved hanging out with Jake. Honestly, he makes me laugh like so hard. It was very hard to like stay on topic. Yeah. Yeah. To stay on course with Jake is really funny and hard to do, but he's great. His second season of his podcast is crushing.

1:15:02His tour is selling out. Yeah. So thanks so much, Jake, for coming on the show and we will see you guys next week.