Mai Pham

23:44And I think like having that strong community has really helped me continue on and like not feel the sense of burnout because I can always be open. I'm excited to talk about the private Instagram. I don't, I, we're going to get to it, but I want to ask you about, we just talked about like, um, you know, outlets and people to trust as a creator. Um, you signed with a manager at 16, right? So at that stage, are you living with your sister? Are we at that part of the story where you're like living out of the house. What was the experience of signing with that manager? And you're still with that manager today, right?

24:15Yes, I love you, Charlie. Yeah, and that's hard. Like creators finding a credible, trustworthy manager, especially at 16 years old, like talk to me about that experience and building a team at that age. I remember I had, this was the realization when I realized, okay, I think I need help. I've been doing it on my own for so long now. And I remember I was traveling and I just wasn't replying to my emails and I wasn't getting back to my emails. And I was like, I'm just too busy. Like, I can't. But I'm like, my, like, you got to pay your rent, you know? But it's like, what are you supposed to do?

24:45And I was like, because in my head, and I think a lot of creators think this, and it's like, oh, but I don't want them to take a cut of my money. Like, I don't trust them. Like, what if this, this, this, and that? And I'm like, you got to realize, though, that once you bring on a manager, they're going to make you 20 times what you're probably pitching yourself as right now. So yeah, they're taking that cut, but you're going to be making more money. And I remember I flew out to Texas to go see Haley Pham and Ryan. This was when they were just dating though. And I went out to see Haley and I stayed with her and we filmed a video together and everything.

25:14And she was the first creator that I ever hung out with. And it's coincidentally, our last names are both Pham. We both have the same birthday. We're both Vietnamese. And at that time, her mom was living with her. And now my mom lives with me now. And I just think it's so crazy because I think I owe a lot of like where I am today to Haley and how open she was to me. But I remember talking to her and during that like two days that we were hanging out, she showed me Final Cut Pro and like she was just putting me on to like all these new things. Wait, what were you editing on before? I was editing on iMovie.

25:42And before that, it was Windows Movie Maker. All right. You know, I used Windows Movie Maker. Yeah, I mean, we've all done there. That's how I learned. Yeah, I used Windows Maker. Also, Colin's wearing Ryan's shirt. I know. That's what I'm saying. Like, I love them both. Like, Ryan and Hailey are the best. And I remember she was telling me about her manager and I was like, oh my gosh, can you get me in contact with them? And this was when I was 16. So maybe this was like almost five years ago now, almost. And this was like, Like social media was not a big thing. Managements were not a big thing.

26:07And I remember I asked Haley, I was like, hey, can you put me in contact with your manager? She's like, yes, of course. So she put me in contact with Charlie. And I obviously trust Haley. I saw the things that she was doing. She was like the biggest female YouTuber at that time. And I was like, you know what? Like I trust her. And at that time, my manager was also managing Ava Jules as well. And I grew up watching Ava. So I was like, okay, well, if she manages these two creators, I trust it as well. And I went with her and the process was amazing. Like they just opened me up to so many things I didn't know.

26:35But I remember we had a phone call and like we just went on the back end of my analytics and everything. And she was teaching me all about that and asking me like, you know, where do you want to go? What do you want to do? And I just realized like, oh, like this girl is rooting for me. Like she wants to see me win because she wins as well. And I think that from there on, like we've been together for so many years now. Those incentive structures and relationships are very important at an early stage of a creator journey. but they're so finicky, right? Like it either is what you got, which is like a great individual who you can build with over long periods of time, or sometimes it can be predatory or like just not great.

27:14And it's a challenge to decipher which one it is. But I will say that on that note, I think that's a really common feeling that I had too, of I don't want to give a commission to someone. Like we're doing the hard work, like we're building. But as you zoom out and recognize, like it's not just about the pie getting bigger. It's also about where your focus and energy is. And like if your focus and energy is on emailing and negotiating, that's actually – That's not even what you're good at. And for a creative person, that's actually pretty draining. Like then you have to have a tense conversation and then turn on a camera.

27:49All of a sudden, you're in a different space. Yeah. So when you and Charlie first started working together, what was kind of the vision for what you wanted this to become? Oh, well, I do got to say that if anyone's looking for a manager and they're like, I don't know what to do, ask around. Like, honestly, if you don't have any creator friends, DM everybody, you know, or like people you follow. And maybe you'll get an answer and be like, Hey, I'm like just starting out. And like, I need help. Like I want to get a manager, but I don't know who. And I don't know. I think the creator space, especially the YouTube space is so open.

28:20People will help you out. They'll be like, this is my management. And if you like notice, or like, let's say you look in people's bios and you see everybody has the email with at this management, maybe, you know, you can bet them out and know that they're trusted. But also just talking to people, I would say, because there's going to be, especially rising creators, so many people are going to be on them like, oh, like, let's work together. Let's work together. And like just saying, oh, I'll do this for you and I'll do that for you and leaving empty promises. But really, I think it's like having the connection between them and another creator is super important.

28:51Trust your creator friends. And on the inverse to like potential managers or agents, the creator to creator conversation is the most likely scenario for you to assign talent. Like I truly believe that. Like I think that creators listen to other creators first and creators that they respect first before they listen to anyone else. And yeah, I mean, we're represented by UTA. Like we, I, you can typically tell if someone likes their representation. If I'm in conversation with someone who's looking for representation, I'm like, oh my God, I have to introduce you to my team. If that is the scenario, then typically you live, A, that creator lives in like a abundance mindset of like, I'm not scared if they sign someone else.

29:32It's great. But also that means they really like their representation. And I would take that as a signal. Whenever people ask me, like up and right, I actually was just talking to this TikToker and he's going crazy right now. I'm not gonna say his name, but he's like, I don't know what to do. Everyone's hitting me up being like, I wanna work with you and I'm meeting with agents and I'm like, listen, these are like this is what they're going to say to you and this is that i like mine this is how to vet it out but yeah i think that there's a problem that a lot of people go through did you sign a contract at that age because at 16 you can't yeah so you didn't sign a contract no i think that's an important thing to talk about i mean when it comes to stuff like that i don't sign contracts specifically in management and representation because you know what at the end of the day if people are getting their bag they're getting their bag why do you need a because people get screwed over right yeah i actually think that's an important thing to talk about.

30:19That's not discussed a lot, but like that, that is a completely okay option there of not have to sign. Yeah. And that you're in the place of leverage as the creator. Yeah. I think, oh my gosh, sorry guys. I know you asked the question, but we're going to something else. I know my, I know so many creators to this day. They're like, I'm kind of scared of my manager. And I'm like, what do you mean scared of your manager? They're like, I have a deadline to make. Like I need to make it or else my manager's going to be mad at me. And I'm like, okay, yeah, deadline's a deadline. But at the end of the day, like they're speaking like upon you, You know what I mean?

30:49If like you are going to be late with something or you're busy, tell them you're going to be busy and they'll relay that message. But like at the end of the day, you're the creator. Like you're the one bringing in the money. And like you're kind of like if I imagine at the pyramid, like you're here, not your manager. Like stop thinking like that. Like don't be scared. But I think some there are there are some situations where creatives and creators want a boss. And then they they kind of place that on their representation. Right. Because it's scary to be the one who's guiding the ship. Right? It's very scary to be like, all these decisions are mine.

31:23That's a really scary place to be as a young creative. And it does intersect right now. Like being a creator and being an entrepreneur is the same thing. You know, like we are all entrepreneurs. We're running small businesses. And, you know, sometimes you're just thinking of yourself as the creative person who can make the video, not the CEO of your own company. And so when you find a manager who has like confident business acumen, then you're like, that's the CEO. Right? And I think it's I've never seen it from that perspective. That's interesting. It's subconscious, but it's very scary as a creative person to be like, all these decisions are mine.

31:54And you might be used to having a scenario, whether it's in school or whatever, where there's a roadmap for you. And if someone has an authoritative voice that feels like that's the roadmap, you know, that's, I think, what typically happens. I want to try to, like, implement into creator's head, like, you know, you also have a voice and you can do whatever you want. Because I just see people, like, create merch that they don't even like. And I'm like, why did you do that? Like, if you didn't like it, say that you don't like it and go work with somebody else. And they're like, I don't know. This is what my management said to do.

32:21And I've seen other people do it. And I'm like, you have the world in the palm of your hands. You have this community you can do whatever with. If you want to go freaking, I don't know, go to space, tell your management that, and they'll try their hardest to make it happen. I've been saying that to our management for so long. No, right? Like, ugh, get it together. No, but if they have a vision, the people around them is there to make it happen. And I think that that's what I wish a lot of creators would realize is that they can really ultimately do anything and they have a support team if they do to like push it as much as possible.

32:53How big were you when you signed to Charlie and Select? Like, and what were you making? I was, I had 600 ,000 subscribers at that time. And I had been doing it for almost 10 years at that point. And I think I was making, I was making a good amount already. Just off of AdSense though. I was getting no brand deals, zero brand deals. It was all off of AdSense. But that was the issue is I was getting no brand deals. And to go off of what you were saying, like what was the vision that we had? It was to make me more of a, to make me a creator that got brand deals. And the reason why I say that is because I was somebody that was making content, cleaning my dirty room at 2am.

33:36That's not very appealing to brands. You know, I was also a Canadian. And at that point, you know, the creator space wasn't really that big and people, the U.S. companies didn't know how to work with Canadians. It was just a huge thing about like law and stuff. They didn't want to cross that path. So that was also an issue as a Canadian creator. I wasn't making a lot of money. And also at that time it was a lot of like, you know, just representation for people of color was not big. So I just was getting no attention from brands. And I think that was our biggest vision was to work on that and really be able to show people like, Hey, like I'm here too.

34:07We have a POV on how a creator becomes commercially viable to brands, but I'm curious, what were the steps that made you into someone who could work with brands? So funny is I remember coming to LA and I met my manager for the first time. We sat down at the Starbucks and she was like, okay, my, so talk to me. And we talked and I'm telling her about things that I want to do. She's like, yeah, like, let's definitely do that. Like we can. Here's some pointers. She said, maybe swear in your videos a little bit less. The word ass is fine, but maybe mute all the other words, you know? and I also just have such a strong community and I think brands are kind of seeing that, oh, you know, she can sell a product if she really wanted to sell a product.

34:49Like maybe we should start going this way and I think, you know, sometimes brands are like, all right, let's test this out, whatever. Like, let's just do it. But then they see the conversion, they always come back and they're like, wait, let's do repeat brand deals because they see that it actually works. So I actually don't know why or the process, but I'm curious as to what you think it is. Yeah, I mean, we can speak to this. obviously we're working on a whole, I was telling you about it upstairs, like we're working on a course around this because I think this is a - Okay, course coming out?

35:14This is a framework that is not understood, but I think one that is very important to understand. We've talked about it before, but I think what you just said is important. Like I think as creators, what we have to recognize first and foremost is what is the product that we sell to a brand, right? And the product is not videos. The product is access to our audience. So if you think about that, If you start with that framework of we are selling you essentially a key to a door to go talk to our audience, then the most important thing is a very clear depiction of who's on the other side of that. Who is the audience, right?

35:51And why are they watching? And if you just start in that position of like, who are these people? Why are they here regularly? Then you can start to understand what are the brands that fit naturally into that, right? Because that's the thing is that if you're a brand looking at your viewership, the numbers are interesting. But they're only interesting if I know who they represent. And so I think that's like number one is you need a good, clear depiction of that. And then you have to arm your management with those tools to go out and say what that is so that they can storytell on your behalf. A hundred percent.

36:26A hundred percent. And I think now I make a lot of videos where like that naturally where a brand would look at me like, oh, that could be us. Like I make videos just shopping at Target for products. And I just talk about products for 10 minutes straight in a Target. Or I make videos about a glow up. And I go through maybe like 10 different stages, getting my hair cut, getting my hair dyed, doing my nails, waxing my eyebrows, going through the whole makeup, doing a whole hair thing. And it's like those are 10 different segments for a brand to look at and be like, wait, she uses all of these different products.

36:52And I just naturally like to do it for fun. But I think that that's a big way that I was able to brand myself to be a little bit more brand friendly is opening up that opportunity for a brand to come in and take that spot. What do you think is your competitive advantage in that genre? Because obviously there's like a ton of beauty, lifestyle, travel bloggers on YouTube. But I feel like you've carved out like a unique space. I'm curious to hear like, what do you think is your POV on what maybe separates you from other people? If like Charlie's going out to sell, it's like, no, my is the person for this brand.

37:27I would never lie. I would never lie. If I think something is bad, I will tell people in the video. Like I won't, I'm not going to say the brand, but in this recent vlog that I posted, I'm talking about this brand. I'm like, I used to use them a lot, but I'm not going to lie. They got way worse over the years. And it's like, I'm not scared to say that, you know? And it's like, I can do both ends. I can say something's good, but I can also say something's bad. And I think that I have a very strong opinion about things. And I think maybe that's what it is, is that people can trust what I say because they know that I'm not only talking highly about things.

37:54Like I will tell them if I hate something. And trust takes time. I think to your point of like your, the amount of years you've spent building trust with your audience, with YouTube, the platform shows brands like, okay, she, this is a sophisticated operation we can come into. Like this is a trusted space for our products. Oh, I guess so. Yeah. And actually that goes into a lot with my clothing brand Alchemy because I have never worked with a merch company and I've been doing it for so, so, so long now. And I remember when I was 15, I did a little bit of merch once, but even then I wasn't working with a company because at that time I didn't have management.

38:30And I also, no companies knew who I was. So I remember ordering a hundred guild and blanks online and then getting it to my house and then getting them embroidered at a local shop in Edmonton and selling that as merchant. My brother and I did the photo shoot together. And like, that was what I did because I knew that I was making the product and I knew exactly what it was and I liked it. But throughout the years, I had a lot of people hitting me up being like, let's do this, let's do that because they saw the community and they saw what I could sell. and I could see it too. My management could see it.

38:56And everyone was kind of like, my, why are you not selling anything right now? Like you're losing out on so much money. And I knew that deep down in my heart too. It sucked. But all these merch companies would be making me clothes and stuff and I would receive them. I'm like, I would never wear this. Like honestly, to be honest, I would never wear this. So I never wanted to sell it. And I knew that I was losing out, but I also knew that me releasing something that I wouldn't even wear myself is going to, in the long run, be way worse for me because it's like you're losing that trust with the people that love you, you know?

39:23It's like they may come get it once, but they're never going to come back for anything ever again. And it's like, ugh, I don't want to do that. So I think that that was also a big thing with my clothing line is that I wanted to make sure that I developed a product that I genuinely really loved so that when I spoke about it, people could see the passion behind it and see why I love it so much. There's great advice that we got from a podcaster named Tim Ferriss who was on the show who said credibility is a scarce resource. like the reality is that you can spend years building credibility but it's just one action that can take it away and that's a you have to be very careful as a creator in what you do i saw this creator on tiktok and she was reviewing this makeup product a couple months ago and she said it's terrible she just did a branded sponsored post for that same makeup product and people are blasting her online i'm like don't do that why did you just do that for a quick bag because now the people that trust you are never going to trust you again and i think that's such a big thing i think there's a level though of like gamification that we're connected to as creators where you know our connection to the the views going up our connection to um the the money going up it's all just numbers on a screen going up of course it can unlock interesting experiences in your life but that's also a game it's also interesting to get access to things and access to people um so i think that there's like a deep connection to the short-term excitement of winning the game right of like as long as the numbers are going up, it's fun and exciting.

40:44And the second the numbers are going down, you start going like, wait, how do I? And to have like a dead set value system is pretty hard. Oh, well, I was going to say, I think it's so important though. It's important, but it's hard. Value system, it gets you through those tough times when you're like, oh no, what am I going to do? Like, I think that having those deep and still principles is like, gets me through everything. Was merchandise something that you and your, and Charlie talked about right when you got signed? Oh, no, not right away. Not right away, no. It was just progressively throughout the years, you know, they suggest things like, how can we build your business?

41:15And it's like, all right, like, let's do merch, let's do merch. And, like, she helped me connect with a bunch of different companies. I had so many different companies sending me samples every single day. And every single one of them, I was like, no, no, no, no, hate, hate, hate. And I was like, you know what? Let's stop this whole operation. I'm going to go figure this out myself. And they were just like, okay, like, good luck. Because what, like, 17-year-old creator goes to figure this out herself? You know, like, nobody? I'm curious what the team looks like. Because you're describing a team.

41:43When did it start to grow and establish? I just signed on agents. But that's more for expanding my clothing business, I would say. Like being able to tap into different pockets. And then like, you know, business manager, legal, all that. But it's a very small crew. Oh, and then I have my production manager. Which that's, he's probably the person I speak to the most. So where does your production manager fit into your editing process? this. So my production manager is actually for my clothing line. Okay. And that's why I was saying, I remember going production of clothing production. And he's like the, when we go into the pie about everything, you guys will see why, but he's like a huge crucial part of my business.

42:22I remember I walked into this office going back to the other story and I was like thinking I was going to make a clothing brand, but I didn't really know exactly what, but I knew I wanted it to be an extra large hoodie because I love extra large hoodies and I want to be able to sell something that I'm passionate about, but none of the extra large hoodies would ever fit properly because you know, If you're buying an extra large hoodie, it's going to be baggy on the bottom and it's just going to look very big, but they are so comfortable. I love wearing an extra large hoodie because you can wear no pants with it.

42:46It's just a comfortable vibe. I go into there and I'm like, listen, I want to make a hoodie, but only make it one size. All the men in the room, and I say men because it was only men in this room, they were like, don't do that. I was like, why? They were like, that will never work out. One size, that's never going to work out. People are going to be so upset at you. Who does one size? That's never going to work out. and when I keep saying they say that like everyone was just praying for my downfall they were like it's not gonna work out girl so I'm telling them I wanna do this one size and then I tell them this and this is where they're like get out of my face like this is not gonna work I tell them I want the bottom to be like scrunched because like the bottom of this hoodie is scrunched like this and they were like do not do that that is what people that make cheap clothes do because they don't know how to sew properly and I was like shut up I promise you it's gonna work out so they helped me like make the sample And we went back and forth with manufacturers for a year straight until it was perfect because I didn't like any of the fabric that was made.

43:43And I was like, oh, like this just sucks. So they ended up having to custom mill a fabric for me. And that's why now the hoodie is a custom milled fabric, custom cut and sew and all that stuff. But we ended up making the hoodie that it is today. It's like a one size Alchemy hoodie with this huge hood that fits over your head with headphones and everything. But that's my production manager that I work with now. And we work just one on one with each other. and like he helps me with everything because we manufacture everything here in LA. And so it's all at different places. We get the fabric made at one place.

44:13We get it cut and sewn at another place. We get it printed at another place. And then we have a warehouse at another place. Wow. So it's a lot of communication to make this whole thing go around. Is like fully, you made it. Yes. Like it's your blank, right? It's a very custom hoodie. Like there's no, like the fabric, even down to like the quality that you feel here, it's like custom. And the reason why is not because we're like making some mohair like expensive fabric it's very expensive to make in LA but it's just because I need this hoodie to fit in such a certain way and for it to be one size and fit everybody and because it fits a size extra small to double XL and for that to work you need it to have it to like fall a certain way and if the fabric is 20 gram like 10 grams GSM heavier I will notice and I'll be like this does not look right it looks like it's swallowing me And it's like, that's how important this custom fabric is.

45:02It's so interesting because as I was writing about this episode this morning, I was thinking about you as a designer because you're speaking like a designer. Like, again, I grew up in a clothing family. Like, I grew up in a garmento family, like a downtown Los Angeles garmento family. Like, my dad had the, you know, the, what's it called? The measuring tape. The measuring tape around his neck my whole life, right? And he's like, you watch him in measure fabric or look at, you know, a piece of clothing. And he's operating around it in a way that I don't understand. That probably we operate around in like a video timeline.

45:37But to become a Garmento like that is like a whole, like that's a whole thing. Oh my gosh. So why don't we do the pie chart? Because you mentioned that. Like, what is your MyFam business pie chart? I would say that in the grand scheme of things, Alchemai probably makes 65 to 75 % of my money. Wow. And then the brand deal side and everything makes 25%. Brand deals and AdSense combined? Brand deals and AdSense combined. Whoa. Yeah. So, okay, that's super interesting. That's surprising. Yeah. Because you haven't done that many drops. I haven't done that many drops. And you only have one SKU essentially, right?

46:18Different designs, right? but the same. Different designs, but we only have one SKU and I've made more money off of Alchemist than I ever have in my whole entire life doing brand deals. Okay. And AdSense. So, here's the thing that gets me about merchandise. Like, for people to understand how hard that is to do, like, the margins on what you're doing are slim, right? No. No. Okay. And that's why I wanted to make my own business is because these merch companies would come to me and say, we're going to do a 70-30 split. And obviously, you can negotiate that, but I was like, absolutely not. like my community is the thing that's driving these sales and you're going to take this much from doing it like I can learn this myself but also if I'm not passionate about what I do how am I supposed to sell it to people like if I'm just like oh here's a piece of fabric like go sell it of course I could but I want to be able to show people like how much I love this product so hopefully that they get it and they're like wait I understand why and I think that's why I wanted to do it all myself with my production manager Justin because now I can learn and understand like how things are made so that I know more about my business.

47:20Like I am in LA right now and I'm about to go to the factory later today and go check things out and see how things are going. This morning, I had one of the guys that work at the factory come pull up to the house with two hoodies being like, okay, we made two because you know what I noticed? We made a black one. And we noticed that when we dyed it with the black fabric, I mean, with the black dye, it made the ribbing a little bit more soft and stretchy. And when I put it on, I wore it throughout the day. I was like, this is falling down. Like this is not holding up like how the rest of them do.

47:44and it's the fact that I know my products so well that I can do product control like that and know what I'm selling. He comes to me, he's like, okay, we took three inches off of this. We took two inches off of this. Try it on. And I could try it on and tell him, this is what I like. And I think being so invested into my business was a big reason as to why it's so successful because I actively try to learn about the business. Well, now the lion's share of the revenue comes from being a designer and being a Garmento. Again, like - Yeah, I guess so. Can you give us an idea of like roughly how many hoodies you've sold?

48:13Yeah, we've sold, the last job we did, we sold 6 ,000 in less than 36 hours. Okay, that's a big deal. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, yeah, that's a lot of hoodies. And keep in mind, you don't promote that on YouTube. We didn't even promote it on YouTube. I've never spent a penny on ads. We didn't send any to influencers until after we sold out. So can you tell us how you promote them? How do you make that happen without your biggest distribution outlet? it? I just talk about it on Instagram stories. On which account? On my private account. On your spam account. On my spam account. So we are yet to be accepted to the spam account.

48:51Oh, sorry, guys. Because guess what? I only accept like twice a year. I know. And I don't, it's a very cool model that I'd never heard of before until we were having dinner in New York and you were telling me about it. And I was like, what? So can you explain the spam account and how it came about, what it is, how you get accepted, and even the concept that you promote the hoodies there. Yeah. So when I was 15, I got suspended from high school. Why? We're vlogging on YouTube. And this is when I lived in a different high school. I was going to a different high school. I lived in a different city.

49:23And I remember they called my mom and they were like, you have to come drive up here to have a meeting with us. And this girl does not know how to drive. So someone else had to drive her up to the city. It was just a big pain in the ass. We sit down in the office. It's like literally a three-minute meeting and they're just, your daughter has been suspended. And it's because she's vlogging. Because you were making vlogs. Interesting. And it was a new high school, right? So it's like, I don't know the rules. Like in my old school, I was allowed to do whatever. So they suspended me. And keep in mind, I was like, up to that point, I was an honor student until I got to that school.

49:50Just my mental health was so bad. So when they suspended me and like my whole like person, like everything I knew about myself came kind of crashing down because I used to be this straight A student that never got in trouble. Like I was by the book. And when they suspended me, I was like, what's going on? Like, it's like they didn't even care about me. Like, they couldn't have talked to me. They couldn't have done anything. It's like, I just felt like I didn't know. I didn't have a sense of self anymore. And when that happened, I decided to film a video. And I went and I got a tattoo at 15. And I didn't want my parents to know because I got a tattoo and I was 15.

50:25So I made a private account. And I made a YouTube video glowing up because I got suspended. and I was like, and I also got a tattoo but if you guys want to see that, go follow the private account. So I could filter who's following it and know that my family was not seeing it. So that's how it all started was that I was sharing things on there that I didn't want like my family or like maybe close friends to really be seeing. I could really just be fully myself and I've had that for almost six years now and that's kind of, it's just grown. How many people follow it now? 524 ,000 followers. And all of those are individually accepted by you?

50:57Yes, like I literally have to. Oh my gosh. That's wild. Like, I think people think that I have people do this for me, and I wish— You say 524 ,000? Yes. Oh, wow. Okay, so there's— Or half a million people. Yeah, there's half a million people. See what's so crazy? That account gets more likes than my main account. But that makes sense. I'm like, ugh. That makes sense. People care more, though. It's a more—essentially, you took the model of, like, 1 ,000 true fans, right? And moved it into this private Instagram account. Blew it up to half a million. But you have half a million true fans. and so now it makes sense to me that essentially you're promoting your apparel into your most dedicated fan base.

51:31Yeah, that's how it all started was like doing that and I really like to show people the behind the scenes of what I'm thinking. Like I'll show them like I'm debating between this blue color or this one. Like what do you guys think? And that just goes with everything. If I'm stuck on a thumbnail, I'll put it on my story and in two minutes, I'll have thousands of people being like this one, this one, this one. And it's just like that way, like I know what they want and that way they feel like they're included. Like it's a very – It's a video game feel to that. From the audience. And that's how it all started was like with that.

51:59And the issue is is that like we're selling out so fast that people are getting upset that the people that don't follow that account can't get it. Can't buy. Because like we actually with the last drop we made three different designs. And the one that people really wanted sold out before it even made it to the main account. Because basically I let the spam account have it 24 hours before. And they got early release and they got a password to go onto the site. and by the time I dropped it to the main account, it was supposed to be 24 hours after. But I had to release it on the main account only a couple hours after because I noticed we sold 2 ,000 in four hours.

52:31And we were sold out of one of the hoodies. And I felt bad. I was like, damn, these people can't get it. So now we're shifting the business model a little bit because it's starting to become very unfair. But in different ways, we're doing things for the spam account still. And so by we, I mean me. So meaning you'll start releasing some items that are for? yeah I mean I'll do right now I'm working on a spam account exclusive drop where you know they're going to come with me through the whole process and pick the Pantone and they're going to be able to like pick the design and we're going to be able to like figure out exactly what we want to do with it and I'll just release it only to them to buy and that way it's like a cute little thing where it's like oh you only have this if you're part of the spam account it's not too dissimilar from what people do with Patreon or membership it's a membership call right but it's free but it's free but it's exclusive It's exclusive.

53:20That's the thing. It's like, you can't just get in. Okay. So the question I have for you, I'm fascinated by the use of the spam account to sell, you know, merchandise and that that is driving like such high quantity of sales. Obviously I would assume the vision is that you want to be able to drive sales through YouTube or do you not ever want to try and drive sales through YouTube? I do. It just means that we have to make so many and I put all the money up front from my bank account. There's nobody doing this for me. Like I'm the one wiring all these different vendors' money. And once it starts getting to the 10 ,000 mark of making things, that's when you start getting into the hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars being put up.

54:02And that's a huge upfront expense. And like that's when it starts getting a little bit like, I don't know. And I think I have this feeling of like imposter syndrome where I like don't know like what I can do. So I always like lowball myself and I'm like, okay, I don't know. I'm going to do a low amount. Then it ends up selling out before I can even make a YouTube video. But that's the goal. Have people ever come to you interested in investing to help you like to help front the costs so that you do have those quantities? I don't think I've really opened myself up to it yet because I don't think that that's something that like I have the issue with is putting up the upfront money.

54:36I just think that I need to, I've only been doing it for a year, you know? So like, I don't have, I'm slowly building, I would say, because every time we do a drop, I almost double it. There's also experience and confidence and, you know, understanding sell-through rates, right? Now you're getting into, again, like the clothing business. And when you get to that point, there are opportunities for like revenue-backed financing, right? Where like Shopify offers this, where it's essentially you can, they can base how much money they give you upfront off of your sales. Really? Yeah. I didn't even know that.

55:07And there's a lot of people who will like factor, like there's this, the clothing industry has existed long before YouTube, right? This problem has existed long before YouTube, but the pace at which people can sell is pretty unique in the clothing business. And like selling 6 ,000 units of a hoodie is, is very - In the middle of summer. In the middle of summer. It was July. That's crazy. It was literally like July. And that's one of many drops is super unique, right? And I would assume, and tell me if I'm wrong, but the next iteration is like expansion of SKUs. Yes. So we're going to be doing zip ups.

55:37We're going to be doing track pants, sweat pants. I'm going to be releasing journals because I'm very much into like journaling and, you know, visioning your dream life. And that's a huge thing for me. So I want to be able to create my own journal and just like create things that I like am passionate about. So expanding on just clothes, like I want to create incense holders, like things like that, where it becomes more of a lifestyle brand and that way it can grow with me as well. You know? Totally. Yeah. I mean, it is interesting to go from, if we, if we look back at some of the conversation we had around, how do you make yourself commercially viable?

56:08We talked about creating space in your content to talk about products and brands that you like. Yeah. What's amazing about when you are a creator like yourself is that you can replace those with your own brand. Yeah. Right. And that's like the, that's the really interesting, uh, path that creators like an Emma Chamberlain or like you talk about it. He said, you know, sponsors can't really afford me anymore because you know, it's gotten too much. So instead he creates his own product that he can just put into every single one of his videos. And boom, it's literally, he has a shoppable shelf and I have it as well, right underneath your video.

56:40So it's like, instead of having a brand pay you, why don't you just create your own product? I think it's funny. It's like, even in this immediate environment, I'm wearing Ryan Trahan's shirt. You're wearing your own hoodie and you're wearing our hat. Like all three of us already have represented different creator items, which is amazing. What are some of the challenges? Because I think there's a lot of creators who want to produce apparel, us being one of them. And it's, even though I'm from like a Garmento family, producing apparel is really hard for us. It's not natural. And it's not a natural thing to do.

57:12It's totally different from the ease of which when you grow on YouTube, the ease of which you can be like, I can make a YouTube video and get a brand deal and just get, you know, I can grow my revenue by doing that. Making the decision to make apparel is really hard and it's cost intensive, it's time intensive. Quality control is an issue. Quality control is an issue. Quality control is a huge issue, yeah. And it's your face on the line as a creator when something goes out. So for other creators who are exploring merchandise, what is the roadmap? I'm also asking for us personally, how do you get good at making merch and doing drops and making apparel a big part of your business?

57:51I would say the biggest thing is making sure that you are proud of what you stand by because there's going to be such tough times. and if you don't like what you're making, it's going to be so easy to give up. Like I have never cried more from anything than this business because when you have this much money on the line and you also have so many people waiting on you, like, you know, I built up my community for so, so, so long. And if a shipment is delayed and like where do we like don't have like maybe the poly bags in stock and it's like, oh my God, these people are going to have to wait a week and people are going to be so mad.

58:23That's another level of stress that like I've never even had in my entire life. Like I just had to learn that. And I think that if I didn't love what I made and wasn't passionate about the product, I wouldn't have been able to follow through and keep doing drops. So I would say that this is one of the biggest things is like really like what you're making and whether that be like the design on the back of the shirt or on the hat, like make sure that you feel invested into it. And because if some people like this, but some people will just like make, like companies will make designs for creators and be like, hey, tell us which one you like and we'll just sell it for you.

58:55And it's like, yeah, that's cool. you're getting money in your pocket, but like, do you really love it? Like, are you passionate about it? So I would say that's one of the biggest things is make sure you are making something that you genuinely love and really think about like yourself. Like what do you wear a lot? Like, do you wear a lot of hats? Do you wear a lot of shirts? Do you wear hoodies? Maybe you really love socks. Like take something you really love and just start with that and do one thing at a time. Don't think that you need to make like a whole entire merch line for people to buy, like focus on one thing.

59:20And then once you get the hang of that, do the next. And I think for me, that's worked a lot just because I already am so overwhelmed with business. And I'm really grateful to feel that way, but also at the same time, I don't know how it would manage 10 different things. But just having one thing to focus on is really, really helpful to me. It's so interesting because we talk about this a lot, but we're in this new era of entrepreneurship where it used to be you make the product and then you go out and try and find customers. but what you did is essentially build a customer base first and then find a product that matches that customer base, right?

59:55So it is very different, but you're also building in public and making mistakes in front of everyone. With Alchemai, that was one of my biggest things. It was like, what if I put hundreds of thousand dollars into this and I don't sell any? Like, what if it flops? Like, I'm out of a lot of money and people are going to be able to see that it flopped. But something that I always have to remind myself is that even if I fail, I'll always be able to be back in the position that I am right now without trying, like if I don't try. And what I mean by that is like, okay, let's say I put money into this business and it didn't work out.

1:00:33And now I'm actually in the negatives and I'm set back from where I am right now here. I've gotten myself here in this position and I know how to build myself back up to here. And that gives me the confidence to go out and try new things because I know that I'll always be able to work myself back up to where I am today, but I'm never going to know what's out there until I try. Totally. How do you approach brand deals now? Because you do a lot of brand deals with like very blue chip brands, right? Like a cover girl, right? As an example. And now that you said 75 % of your revenue comes from your brand, your clothing brand.

1:01:08Are you more, are you, is it easier for you to say no to brand deals and to money that comes in the door from brands? And how do you approach that from what you say yes to, what you say no to? What is your brand deal business look and feel like? So I would say I do a lot of brand deals. Like that's honestly what I'm like busy doing a lot of the time is filming things, taking meetings for that. And that's like a big portion of what takes up my time in a business is doing brand deals, even though it's not making me the bigger chunk of it. It's just because I genuinely like love a lot of brands. So when they come to me, they're like, hey, we want to do something.

1:01:43I'm like, duh, like let's do something. And to me, it's cool because I'm using these brands from when I was a kid. And now that they want to work with me, I'm like, yeah, it makes sense. Like, let's do it. So I think that I have the freedom to say no to brand deals, but honestly, like it doesn't happen as often as you would think that it happens because I genuinely like love a lot of the brands that I work with. Um, but I would say that it's definitely nice being able to, you know, filter them out. Yeah. Which platforms, like, how do you rank your platforms when it comes to brand deals? Like are most of them happening on TikTok?

1:02:14Is that where the highest rates are? Is it YouTube, Instagram? Like how does the brand deal business work across platforms? I would say that I get them paid the most from YouTube brand deals, but YouTube brand deals also take a hundred times longer than a TikTok would take. And you don't get paid a hundred times as much as you would a TikTok. But YouTube is where I get the most. Actually, no. I think more recently it's evened out. I get the same amount of TikTok as I do YouTube now, but I think that it's because I've posted a lot on TikTok and I've made TikTok my platform to try out beauty products, to tap into the beauty product world.

1:02:47Got it. Yeah. Yeah. Makes sense. Yeah. So there's like a format there that's probably more easily purchasable. Well, like, it's just like being able to do a get ready with me and all you're doing is talking about a beauty product. Like that's so much easier. And making a TikTok is so much easier than making a YouTube video. So I'm more prone to accept a TikTok than a YouTube. Yeah. I think oftentimes creators don't think about the margin, right? So like if it's the exact same amount of money, right? If it's like$20 ,000 or$30 ,000 for a brand deal integration into YouTube versus Instagram versus TikTok, the margins are actually different on all of those.

1:03:21Because an Instagram might be a story or might be a photo. The TikTok is filmed on phone and probably caught on phone in way easier. And the YouTube video is a lot of concepting. A lot of things and a lot of edits. Yeah, and it's a lot of revisions. Yeah. And so you think about, like, obviously in clothing, you think about margin where you're like, here's my production cost. But I think as creators, we typically fail to think about our time and energy as a cost, right, of going into something. Yeah. So yeah, I think that is really interesting. And I think TikTok is naturally the place where probably - Yes, and you know what I think it is, is that with TikTok, when brands have a pile of money and they're like, we need to distribute this, it's easier to give it to 10 TikTokers and have the rates be kind of low than to give it to one or two YouTubers because the rate for a YouTube video is so high that I think that brands are struggling to catch up with the audience, like, you know, like the audience that a creator has to be able to pay them that rate.

1:04:13And I think that that's why like my TikTok and my YouTube is a lot more evened out now is because some brands may not be able to afford a YouTube video, but maybe I genuinely really love them and we want to work together. I'll mention them in my YouTube videos because I love them, but we can't do a branded segment together, but maybe we can do a TikTok together, you know? So it's like, if I really love the brand, I'll figure out a way to make it work out. You consume like more TikTok than YouTube or YouTube and TikTok from like a sort of like studying the landscape, seeing what's going on? I feel like both.

1:04:41But to be honest, I'm a YouTube girl at heart. I love YouTube videos. Like I just like seeing what people are up to. But I also like to be inspired. Like I always need new things to put into my YouTube videos. And I'm like, oh, they did a shot like this. They did this like this. I think longer form too. It's more conducive to that feeling of friendship, which also you started with like your initial feeling of like, oh, I'm actually with these people for an extended period of time. And that's like, that's what you get on YouTube as opposed to like people are like you just go from one to the next to the next I feel like you learn so much on YouTube and I like sometimes learn on TikTok and I'll get book recommendations or something but on YouTube like I'll be watching some girl's video and she'll start talking about some random fact that she learned about working out and then I'm like oh my god all of a sudden I want to work out because you just told me this random fact about like working out at 7 a.m is better than working out at this time I'm like okay cool because you You have the time to explain to people the reasons why you do things.

1:05:34But in a TikTok, you don't. You can't explain anything. Or like on YouTube, I'll be watching a video. And the next thing you know, I'll be seeing your guys' video. And I'll click on that. And I'll be like, oh, I wonder what they're up to. And like, I just, I feel like it's a productive way of going on social media. Like YouTube is the most productive one. Yeah. I totally feel the exact same way. So earlier in the conversation, you brought up that the past four months have been really challenging for you in business. what have you learned from those challenges and how do you apply them to kind of the next chapter of what you're doing?

1:06:09I'll say a couple. One of them is to make sure that I'm careful about the things that I say before I share them with other people that I'm like potentially working with. And the only reason why I say that is because sometimes I forget that the people that I'm working with, like, you know, their job is their livelihood. And sometimes if I like say an idea too fast and I don't have a structure or a plan, it can stress people out because they're like, okay, so you're saying that we're going to go to the moon. But how are we going to go to the moon? Like, what are we going to go to the moon? Like, where?

1:06:38And I'm like, yo, it's just an idea right now. Like, we're going to figure it out. But like, we'll get there. And I think a lot of the times it can overwhelm people and they'll start asking a lot of questions like, how are we going to do this? How are we going to do that? And it's like, I don't even know what's going on. So now that there's the pressure of other people relying on me for something, I'm like, oh, my God, like I'm about to break down. Like, I don't know what to do. So that's like one of the things that I've learned is just to really like be careful about the things that I say and make sure I know what I'm doing before I go and share it with the world.

1:07:04And I think that it's just honestly just like a reminder that good times are going to come and bad times are going to come. But just to accept it and that know that there's going to be better times because it's never always just going to be going down. There's going to be a point where you're going to go back up again and it's going to get better. But then you're always going to go back down. And when you zoom out and see the grand scheme of things, life is always going like this. And if you're listening on Spotify or Apple Music, just know that I'm like doing waves right now. I'm doing waves.

1:07:36It's just going to come and go. And I think that that's just something that I really just implemented back into my brain. Because during those times, I didn't think that it was going to get any better. Like I would go to sleep at night being like, I don't know if this is going to get any better. Like what am I going to do tomorrow? Like I just had so many things to deal with that I couldn't see the other side of things and obviously coming out of it now I'm, like You're coming out of it better than ever if anything that happened for a reason and now like i'm really glad that those things happened And I think that I I did a whole journal entry about this and I was just writing about how like i'm like I was just writing about The seasons of life and I I wrote that in there to remind myself because I read back on my journal Sometimes that whenever I have a hard time again, I can come back to this and see how you know tough I was like the tough time that I was having and then kind of look back on my life now and be like oh wait it's so great and I think that's actually something that I do a lot is read back my old journal entries to make myself feel better that is something that I do often and I just recently started doing it more love that yeah it's amazing because your videos are also almost like almost like that but you know what's so crazy is that in my journal entries from two years ago I read one from two years ago when I was living in LA and I was just writing out all these things like I want to start a clothing business.

1:08:48I was writing about Alchemy before it was even started. I was like, I want to start a clothing business. I think it could make me this much money a month in order for it to make this much money for me a month. I think I would have to make this many products and then I would have to sell them at this price in order to make that money. And if I made that much a month, then I would be making this much a year. And I really conceptualized this out in my journal for it to seem achievable to me because a lot of the times we like have these big ideas in our head, but we don't think that we're capable of doing these things.

1:09:13And we just kind of put them to the side and we don't feel like we're, we don't believe in ourselves. And I think that whenever I have an idea now, I think it's very important for me to write down in my journal that idea and then conceptualize it. Like, how am I going to do it? What people would I need to know to do this? Like, what connections would I need to have in order to make this work out? And even if like, I don't know how to do any of the things that are on this piece of paper right now, it just allows me to envision like what my life would be like and how I would make that work. And I mean, that way, it clears up free space in my mind to think of new ideas because I have that written down.

1:09:45I know it's always there, but it also makes me like believe in myself and kind of look at that and be like, wait, like I know how to do this and I know how I would do this. Maybe I just don't have the time right now, or maybe I don't have the money to do this right now, or maybe I don't know the right people, but I know if I had these things, how I would do it. And then that way, like it seems more attainable for me to do and achievable. And I think when you're doing that, you write it all down and you forget about it. And eventually you're going to do these things every single day, subconsciously that you don't even realize that are working towards those goals.

1:10:15And I only say that because I look back at these old journals and I see all the things that I conceptualize in my mind. And I look at it two years later and I'm like, wait, I haven't thought about that. And it happened. Yeah. I agree with that. I'm a full blown believer in manifestation and putting things down. A hundred percent. I think I manifested my whole life. What's on the manifestation list next? Can you share? So, so, so, so, so many different things. I think one of the things on the manifestation list would be, I have to be careful with what I say. Let's think.

1:10:59I think one of the things on the manifestation list is getting Alchemai to work with brands that I genuinely love, like a suitcase company, you know, and like being able to collaborate with different brands and really expand the business out to like be like a, I don't know, like a big business. And that's like one of the big things that I'm working towards. It's just like becoming more of a business woman. Do you ever anticipate a time when you're not on YouTube or you're not on the internet? Do you think out to the future and go, okay, at some point, I want to be, I want to be done. I want to be off the internet.

1:11:29I don't want to be as available as I am now to all of these people. naturally like I love just sharing my life to people online and maybe it won't be to this extent in the future or maybe it'll be even more in the future but I think that a part of me is always going to want to like share my experiences with people or like help people and I think that something that I want to be is like a window of light for people for people to like watch my videos and kind of see what I'm doing and be like wait maybe I can do that too because I saw where she was five years ago and where she is now. And it inspires me.

1:12:02And I think that that's something that I'm super passionate about is inspiring people and giving people hope in their life. Because I know that I was once in a position where I didn't have any hope and I would look to people online and be like, damn, what if that could be me one day? And that kind of drove me through every single day. And I want to be able to be there for people in that way. So in whatever I do, whether it be a business or making content online, maybe being an actor or a singer, I always want to be there and sharing my story of how I got there to inspire people. I love that. Yeah.

1:12:30That's great. Well, my, thanks so much for sharing. Thanks so much for coming on. Thank you. And thank you for having me. I really appreciate it. Of course. Yes. If anyone wants to get these hoodies, just look at this hood. Okay. Imagine you're, you're on an airplane and you're like, oh my God, like I need to go to sleep. You're on the bus. Watch. Boom. All of a sudden you have a sleeping mask. That's the value prop. I love that. You have your, your, your headphones on, your hair up in a bun, this will still fit. Alchemy.la. Shop now if it's available. If not, follow the Instagram. It's like the hot ones moment at the end of the show and they're like, all right, there you go.

1:13:04That's funny. And hopefully one day we get accepted to the spam account. One day. I think we're going to end up with a hoodie before we're even a member of the account. Honestly, probably. But we'll see, we'll see.

1:13:23Thank you.