Reid Hoffman (LinkedIn Founder) on the Future of AI in Storytelling

25:50No, actually, I want it a little like that. Yeah. Tweak it like this. Tweak it like this. Just make the video for me that I want to watch. And look, I think we certainly will have them. I mean, you know, speaking of old media that both continue and also, you know, Black Mirror did Banner Snatch on Netflix. I mean, there is a kind of a different set of things that will now become capable that are now new experiences. But I think the range of experience is really important. Like I think, you know, for various reasons, people still watch some black and white movies too. To have that as also within the experience set.

26:27So we're trying to add to the experience set. And that's, I think, precisely the reason why this notion of, you know, very few of the old media just go away, but they get added to. Now, the new addition might be the thing that suddenly people are putting the majority of their time into, right? So kind of similarly, like, think about this as, like, people said, oh, with mobile phones, PCs are going to go away. No, people still buy PCs, use PCs, et cetera, you know, personal computers. but like a lot of the growth in time is through the smartphone and a lot of the reasons why like for example technologies go well let's create it with a mobile first you know idea and it might be equivalent internet first or youtube first or you know that kind of thing and that's actually part of what adds in new experiences for us what advice do you have for the small to mid-sized creator in terms of using AI to their advantage.

27:22Because I feel like as I look at the creator economy right now, I feel very grateful that Samir and I already have a pre-existing brand that was built sort of before AI has in some ways taken over. I worry sometimes that being optimistic about AI is a luxury for the already established and wealthy. And I want to understand how I can advise small to mid-sized creators to use AI? Because I know we're using it, but we're piling it on top of a brand that has been built over many years. Well, by the way, that's the classic entrepreneurial dilemma, which is the established folks have a brand, a channel, a business, a staff.

28:06It's been built up. The entrepreneur comes in. It's part of the reason why the entrepreneur is, you know, one of the things I say, but like an entrepreneurial effort is your default dead. You stop doing it, it just dies. So you're like establishing it's hard. You have to take risks. And that's precisely, it's like, okay, so what's the thing that is a risk you could go take using AI, doing something? It could be in a way of going to market. It could be on a way of creating a different kind of engagement, experience, entertainment. And this allows you a new thing that they're not doing. Because, by the way, existing people, you're also protecting your brand.

28:46You're protecting the experience that your customers have. You're not doing, and now we're doing us as space aliens and we're doing the, you know, and it's now. We stay within a certain set of bounds because that's our brand. Because that's your brand and what you do is like, well, what's the other things that I could do? And that entrepreneurial, like, what's now new and capable and edgy? It's like, for example, if someone says, oh, I'm going to go create an internet site through desktop computers. You're like, okay, a bunch of those have been done. You should be thinking about what mobile does.

29:20As a matter of fact, you should be thinking about what AI means. Like maybe you're going to create a website, but what's the agent that's in front of it? What's the thing that's happening with that? And that's the entrepreneurial challenge. And, you know, by the way, some of the next question people was like, well, but look, I got it by studying how you guys made this really cool show. And I can go do one. And now I don't know what the new path is. it's, it's, it's like running through a minefield at night in the fog with the wind blowing. And you're like, yep. Welcome to entrepreneurship. Go try to go try to figure it out.

29:54I remember we asked Casey Neistat one time many, many years ago for his advice about how to make it on YouTube and how to be a creator. And he just looked at us and said, nah, you got to figure it out. That was it. He said, I can't tell you. He said, no one's going to define that for you.

30:12You Yeah, I think it's interesting because we have to evaluate, again, where attention is moving. I think I oftentimes think about, you know, working in sports media prior to this, think about Sports Illustrated and ESPN. So when ESPN emerged, like actually Sports Illustrated was the brand that could have been the TV channel. But they didn't believe that somebody would watch 24-7 sports. Yeah. And that's a really, I always try and check myself of what I don't believe to be true. That actually could be true. Right. And I think that's the moment we're in when it comes to being a young, you know, creative entrepreneur right now.

30:52When you're looking at building your own channel or building your own show or building your own platform, you know, we are, we are iterating off of a, a format that's been around forever, the radio, right? Like what we're doing right now is just an iteration of the radio. And so actually, you know, as you start looking forward, have you ever played with Notebook LM? Yes. So that's like the hyper personal version of the radio, right? Where if you're unfamiliar with it, it's a Google product, but you know, you load in a PDF and it can build you a podcast off of that. You load in three PDFs about three different subjects.

31:26So I did it one time about news about what was happening in the creator economy. I did it about the NFL and then latest box office news. And he said, make me a 10 minute podcast about these three subjects. Again, we're back to this question of like the hyper bespoke. I mean, it does suggest that content is in a sense utilitarian, right? That I'm looking to process information through this. But I do wonder about like the efficiency versus the inefficiency where like notebook LM, that is a much more efficient way for me to get nine minutes of information through a podcast than poking around, listening to the town listening to bill simmons listening to right well look efficiency is clearly one part of it especially when you're getting information because um all human experience things exist within like a resource envelope a time envelope etc so it's whether or not i go even go oh i've got two hours to watch a movie that's two hours that's great and sometimes the other way you want the information at the highest amount of information bandwidth.

32:30And sometimes you want the experience. So specifically, like what I've done sometimes, I've got, oh, I actually want to hear how she says this. I don't want just what the, it's like what's the emotional presence and intuination. That's part of the reason I'm scanning through. Oh, no, no, no. And I want that experience. And by the way, sometimes it's like, no, no, it's good to actually get the experience when you're like, look, I'm like, your buildup's a little slow. I'm a little bored. maybe that's actually still sometimes good for me. And so, but by the way, that's also the reason why I was answering the thing is, well, it depends on how something's recommended to me.

33:03So sometimes like someone will say, hey, you should take a look at this. It's a little slow, but it's worth it. And you're like, okay, great. And that kind of recommendation by other people is I think, or people great, not the only thing, or something that has a sense of what's good for me can be good. I mean, that almost suggests like why TikTok took off in such a way, right? It was, you know, they're all recommendations algorithms, but TikToks for some reason understood people in a way that other recommendations algorithms didn't. Similarly to like how if your friend has great taste in food, you would trust his restaurant recommendation better than another friend.

33:41Yes. Or even mislead than a restaurant reviewer. Right. So it's interesting to think about like a layer on top of all the social platforms that operates, you know, again, like on Instagram, if a video takes off, it means it was sent a lot of times in DMs. Yes. That's the kind of the metric. When we talked to Adam Massari, that's the metric of virality on Instagram is sends per reach. Yes. So if you have kind of an agent on top of all your content to essentially in the morning be like, I think you'd like these three things from these three different platforms. Yes. That's really interesting. Yep.

34:14I like that. And I think part of that is like, this is the thing is that the agent for you. Right. Right. That's kind of on your side tracking this down. That's part of the thing that people say, that's the thing that I should be adding into my life. Yeah. I liked talking to read AI in the context from, from a like book perspective from your most recent books. Right. Like I liked my ability to ask read AI about relevant experts, excerpts from your book. Because I found it to digest the information and like just give me that information really well. I think I would do that with some of my favorite authors for sure.

34:48Like processing information, being able to converse about text is very cool. Yes. I like that a lot. And Notebook LM allows that too. Right. Yeah. Yeah. So there aren't many people right now that have AI versions of themselves. like Read AI. I asked Read AI, how would you feel if one day the internet was full of Read AIs and everyone was creating their own piece of content using Read AI? So how would you feel if you woke up tomorrow? And all over the internet, all over X, all over Instagram, TikTok, people were like, you know what? Today, we're going to use Read AI to create. And there were all these versions of you doing all these different things.

35:34Depends on what the things are. And I guess the question I have is, is that a reality that is inevitable? That there will be some days on the internet when people wake up and it's like, oh, everyone's using Leonardo DiCaprio today. I think that versions of that are very highly likely. Like, for example, you think about like, okay, we have open source code. And part of open source code means you can use it, run it, remix it, et cetera. I think we will have some people who are kind of the equivalent of call it open source, you know, AIs. It's like, say, for example, I said, hey, here's Read AI, you know, go do what's thou wilt, right?

36:17And I'll kind of arrange, or maybe there's also the, hey, it's like Creative Commons license. It's like, hey, you can do stuff with this, but it's non-commercial. But if you're commercial, you have to do a deal. Or it could be, hey, you can do stuff with it, but only in the following kinds of vectors. Like I don't mind if it's self-mocking and you kind of have me doing – I'm a terrible singer, so you have it singing terribly. But, you know, like I think that, you know, kind of a racial justice is really important. You can't have it saying stupid racist stuff. Yeah. Right, you know, like that kind of thing.

36:56But I think that the notion that there will be remixed entities is a near guarantee. And then, of course, the question is, well, I'm, you know, Leonardo or like I know, not with mine or with me only in certain in certain ways. So I think it's going to be we're going to have both. How close do you think we are to being able to regulate that on the Internet? Well, I mean, the regulation to some degree is ultimately more straightforward because ultimately your entire experience is through some kind of commercial platform. It's through a smartphone. It's through a browser. It's through a social network.

37:42It's through a, you know, and so there's multiple gateways where you kind of go, hey, if this is something that we kind of go broadly, this is bad, then we can kind of eliminate a bunch of it. And the question is, is, okay, what is that, you know, how is the badness articulated, regulated, et cetera? You know, I think that's one of the pieces of work that's happening, but I think it's ultimately actually pretty straightforward to do. Just like people pull off, you know, a bunch of different copyrighted material from, you know, YouTube these days. it just feels like so much more nuanced and complicated to me that you know something that's clear-cut racist of course yeah i can't have read ai saying that but if it's something that's well actually that's more just not in line exactly with my politics like it just feels like there will be so many different avenues and angles for things to break through let alone at a scale that is enormous yeah but you know you could think i mean look uh one, some people will be much more permissive.

38:51Two, you might say, you can only repost something if I've looked at it, right? Or my AI has looked at it, because that's a scalable thing, is to say, oh, no, you're talking, like you're making all these nods to this conspiracy theory that I think is Bozoville. Nope, not okay. But you could have that, like there's lots, and by the way, I'm not saying there won't be challenges, there won't be footfalls, there won't be issues. That's part of how you innovate and have iterative development. It happens all the time everywhere. I mean, YouTube, really amazing. The first two years was mostly clips of copywritten content.

39:29Yeah, right, right. But it gets to the point where it goes, no, no, that's not actually the backbone of what we're doing. We're doing all this other stuff. We've enabled the creative economy. We've enabled people to become stars that wouldn't have become stars in a Hollywood or, you know, broadcast network system. You know, those kinds of things are good. You know, that's actually a really interesting point because I think one of the problems is our expectation of pace right now. Because we were just having conversations. We took some meetings over, like, in kind of the traditional Hollywood system, right?

40:03And one thing that we discussed was that now, you know, when a Hollywood streamer greenlights a show, let's say a comedy show, they kind of give it one season but if we go back to like the the iterative process the office for example the first two seasons of the office are actually dramatically different from season three through seven and it was finding itself yes and and they were figuring themselves out and so i think that we don't allow as much space anymore for things to figure themselves out right and and youtube started as a dating site right and then it went to clips and then you're right.

40:38Like YouTube. I do think they're different though, because if like, if the office is bad, that does not affect a lot of people. If tech is bad, if these tech platforms can't get a hold of something like AI deep fakes, that can harm a lot of people and change markets, change social dynamics. But I agree that like, no matter what, it takes time. Yeah. Well, we should tell Reed about the rich example. So our friend, Rich Roll, who's a podcaster um you know all of a sudden there was a day where there was a ad that went out from a korean skincare brand that was him on his podcast speaking to a woman named arielle lore and they've never been in the same room together but they're talking about he's prompting her asking what she uses for skincare she talks about this brand it is fully deep faked uh it's a fully ai generated conversation um and to us it's obvious but the challenge was actually to a lot of people Well, it wasn't obvious.

41:33And they believed it. They believed it was a brand deal that Rich was doing. He got a lot of angry messages. Ariel did as well that, you know, they were promoting this kind of bogus skincare brand. They reached out to Meta. It was very hard for them to get in touch and to get something down. It did not come down for a while. And when we talked to Rich about it, you know, his biggest concern is that actually as creators, our core product is trust. The more of this that happens, there's an erosion of trust, right? because there's actually still a subset of people who believe he did that. Yes. Yep.

42:06So that's, I think, to your point of like, this needs to figure itself out over time. I don't doubt that there will be some resolution or some new version of the internet where this is figured out. But in that time, the thing we have today as creators is trust with our audience. Yes. And we've been deep faked before in an ad. It happens. It feels obvious to me, but I don't know that it's obvious at scale. You know, there's a lot of different controls platforms can put in. One, you know, the AI can be monitoring and doing stuff. Just like, for example, you have watermarking of, hey, this is what, you know, IP content looks like.

42:43And if it's got too much of the watermark, we just pull it down. Right? We're not allowed to go up. Another one, by the way, is you go and you say, I can't check everything. It's like, fine. Just check the things that are virally scaling. Right? Like if they're going exponential up, check those. The stuff that's kind of trickling along here, fine. And then, by the way, like a complaint channel. Like, yeah, a complaint channel managed by humans is very challenging. But like what if you had a complaint channel that was managed by AI that could do a quick proxy? Maybe what's sometimes going to wrong need to be escalated to a more – I mean, it would be just like an escalation in a channel.

43:21So I think we want those. the thing is not prevent anything bad from happening. The thing is, is be learning from which bad things are happening as they begin to be more prevalent or scale, make sure you're doing stuff to try to very much limit negative impact. Why do you think the platforms don't already have, like, why are they not better at this already? Meta, YouTube. I think part of it's that, um like they're classically they're in competition about like features that make it more interesting for people to watch and you're like like a deep fake maybe people want to be watching it you know it's kind of so and i'm not saying that's an okay i'm just saying it's it's the reason why like part of what you're going to say okay what's the what's the thing is actually like because they're short term is like actually like people feeling that they have trust with their creators here is actually very much valuable to them in the long term.

44:22They just need to see that and act on that. Are you familiar with VTubers? I can guess, but I don't think so. Okay. So a VTuber is a virtual YouTuber. It's essentially like a animated character, right? So it's, a lot of them are inspired by Japanese culture and kind of, you know, the earliest form of it was actually in like 1997 in Japan where they created this virtual icon and it just didn't didn't catch. But since then, in the 2000s, we had, you know, Lil Mikaela, who was this virtual influencer that was created by Brud, which if you're familiar with. And last year in 2024, 300 VTuber channels accounted for 15 billion views on YouTube.

45:01They're becoming much more adopted. And there's one that sticks out, which is Neura Sama, who's 100 % AI, fully LLM-based. Live streams, you can chat with her directly. And one of the most amazing things to me is, that audiences there's like so much space for it audiences really love uh vtubers and there's actually youtube in a study found that audiences find vtubers to be uh more authentic or can be more authentic uh than real creators because they're not showing their face so they feel that it's a more real interpretation which is a which is such an interesting uh-huh yeah and the majority are not like nor osama the majority do have a human element they just choose not to show yeah their face but the idea being that they can be more authentic versions of themselves if they are behind some sort of facade yeah and by the way that's sometimes you know human experience too it's one of the reasons why people will frequently have a much more open and blunt conversation with a random stranger they're sitting next to in an airplane than they do like the kind of version of that than when they do when they're like your colleague that you see every day because you're like hey i can talk about this and then i can walk away from it and it's kind of a one conversation ever sort of thing and i think like again you know for me i think the fact you get to a range of things is very good and if anything gets overly disbalanced then we try to correct it nudge it some right but like i actually think it's good thing that there's vtubers even that stat is an important one again to note that like this whole subset exists and is generating a lot of viewership probably it might double by next year but it doesn't mean there's not space for the other thing yes and i think that's that's the thing that's calming my nerves right is that when i start to explore the wide world of youtube and go hmm actually like you know there's there's channels that range you know all types of different forms and i think there's there's inherent fear as humans just it's just built into us right there is inherent fear and some of it is bizarre like i think there's some harsh realities like i do have a lot of friends who work in creative fields who are losing their jobs and and that's going to happen right now and that's scary and that that feels very um unsettling and uncertain and i think some of that is just the look there's there's now a new efficient way to generate creative work for the person who's prompting or for the individual creative, it's a much more self-reliant time of creativity.

47:36Like, you know, one of the ways we first started working together was that I was, I, it was so great to have someone who could design, like Colin could design. So I would describe something and he would design it and be like, oh, amazing. Now we have a thing. I can now do that with, with GPT-4. And one thing I was, I was telling Colin yesterday was that I don't feel bad asking for a hundred revisions of something. I do start to get a little, I feel a little guilty in the middle of it because that's like a natural human instinct to be like, I'm asking too much of this thing. But, um, you know, I, how do you think, like, if you're a young creator, a young person, like, um, someone who has fear around job security, someone who's thinking about like the future of creative work, um, like what's your recommendation to entrepreneurs or young creatives right now?

48:26Well, my very first book, The Startup Review, was the commencement speech I gave in my high school. Because I'm not aware of other entrepreneurs who've come from high school. What I as an entrepreneur, it's a version of be the entrepreneur of your own life. And I think that kind of flexibility, always learning, having to have a network of people helping you, life is a team sport, not an individual sport kind of around you is part of the thing that you need as a baseline approaching your work life. Now, when it gets to creators, you want to be doing that because you're thinking about, all right, part of what's central by creation is seeing a market opportunity, e.g.

49:06a zone of experience, a zone of entertainment, a zone of engagement that other people may not see, but a way of getting it in front of people, getting people's attention that other other people may not see and that I will take a smart risk to try to make that happen. But you have to be flexible and adaptive. Like, you know, people start by being nervous about ways that they could lose before they get interested in ways they can win. Because losing, it's kind of like, hell, you know, the kind of neuroscience of if there's a rattling bush, is that a lion in the bush that's going to eat me? Then that's really bad.

49:44If it happens to be a rabbit that maybe I can eat, right? That's good. But like, like the upside from the rabbit, it's not as good as the downside from the lion, right? And so we have that kind of first fear response. And then what you have to do is condition is like, well, is the fear response good here, right? Is it actually in fact as serious? And more often than not, it's overblown because you orient towards not getting the lion. And so that's part of the reason why I like getting people to lean in and try things and to experiment as part of the entrepreneurial mindset with the startup view it's part of the you know why write super agency it was like because this world is is we're trundling along towards it you want to trundle with the world right yeah it's inevitable yes yeah it's it's uh like colin said like it's part a luxury to be optimistic about um ai but i also think it's a uh there's no other option.

50:43Yes. In my opinion, actually, you just kind of have to take a step back and play with it, experience it and go, yeah, what are the, what are the new ideas? And I think we have this, not only like, you know, um, are we biased towards the, the, you know, negativity or the loss of something, but I also think we have a, um, inherent connection to preservation and what is today we want to be tomorrow. Yes. And I think that's the, that's at least, you know, we experienced like a major change at the beginning of this year. Like both of our homes burned down. And I, it taught me a huge lesson in impermanence that, you know, this is like, it's so great when you're a creator and you find your format and your audience likes it, you're like, I've arrived.

51:27Do not take this away from me. You know, please do anything to keep this because I worked so hard to get here. But actually the reality is it's not guaranteed that tomorrow our audience will remain interested in what we're doing. That's a really overwhelming feeling as a creative person. It's hiring, scary. And as an entrepreneur, right? It's like, I found it. I found product market fit. I've also never heard it described as default dead before. I said, Oh wow. I had no idea we were still default dead. I thought we were default alive. You know, there are periods where you can convince yourself that you wake up and you go, Oh, I actually, I don't need to do as much today.

52:03I could be, I'm still, I'm default alive now because we made it, but it's just not the case. Maybe the way of re-understanding Schrodinger's cat is you're tending towards a death and you're trying to change the probability curve to being alive. That's true. That's so true. Oh, it's so exhausting though, as a, as a entrepreneur. Yeah. Like what, what advice do you have for, for us, two guys in their mid thirties? I just had a kid. He's going to have a kid, you know, to, to continue building, um, especially amongst this new world. I think for us to add more context, we were very early to the creator economy space.

52:43Before it was even called the creator economy, we were working with creators behind the scenes and thought, oh wow, there's no place for creators to talk about their business. We could be that place. We think it's an underserved market actually, that creators don't have a space for that. So we were very early to that before people were willing or interested. And then in the pandemic, there was a lot of interest. It started to take off. and now there's actually a lot of competition there are a lot of places you know where creators they'd be happy to forbes would be happy to have a creator on a podcast all of these media companies are excited to have creators on their shows and now we're looking at a sea of competition we're many years in he has a kid i'm having a kid as he said and we're going whoa we've got a long way to go again?

53:27There's a couple of things. First, presume the world's changing, right? And you have to say, look, is it changing fast or slow, changing the way that matters, et cetera. But don't go, the world's just going to stay exactly the way it is. That's a mistake. That's like saying, hey, I'm driving down the road and it's straight and there's no other cars. So I'm going to close my eyes as I continue to drive. No, no, no, no, no. Don't do that. The road's going to change. It's going to be curves. It's going to be potholes. It's going to be other the cards on the road, et cetera. So you have to presume that kind of a certain amount of dynamism.

53:57Now that doesn't mean, oh my God, everything's reinvented every second. That would actually lead you to be foolish in what you're doing. Because actually, in fact, no, these things are continuing, you know, YouTube's continuing, the interesting creators and kind of what the economy and the business and insights, that's continuing. So, all right, so what do you do that? Then you have to say, all right, what's the cadence in which I'm going to kind of think about, okay, what are the big changes that are coming? What are they coming? And sometimes it's kind of like one of the things we do in Silicon Valley companies is, you know, at some cadence we do a red teaming.

54:33Like how would a competitor like try to disrupt our business? Should we try to do that red teaming ourselves, et cetera? And that's at a certain case. But also sometimes you see something launch and you go, oh, that means things are changing. And so you're using both of those as triggers. It's one of the things in the Startup View is talking about It's like why life's a team sport. You're talking to other people. You're saying, well, not just on shows like this, but you're talking to other people saying, hey, what do you guys see that I don't see? What do you think is going to change? Do you think it's going to be, you know, it's going to be, you know, much more entertainment.

55:06It's going to be much more information. It's going to be much more use of AI. Like what, in which ways? And then, by the way, frequently you experiment with them a little bit and see what happens. And like the most often thing that happens with AI is, you know, over the last two years, People experiment with it. Oh, that didn't work. Okay, AI is not working. It's like, no, no. The worst AI you're ever going to use is the AI today. You should keep playing with it. Because, like, for example, for me as an investor, when I first got, you know, access to GBD4, I said, how would Reid Hoffman make money investing in AI?

55:39And it gave me what seemed like a very smart answer, but was actually, in fact, like what a business school professor would describe venture capital as and was completely wrong. It's like a smart, sound reverse part. You identify the largest total addressable market. You look at what kind of this technology could be substitutes and product services. Then you go find the team to do that and you go invest in it. That's not how VC works, right? Because you're looking for entrepreneurs who are seeing some angle in the go-to market and the product service that people just haven't seen before. It's like Uber is not interesting because it's like the question of, oh, a different way of summoning black cars.

56:17It's a complete reimagination of the mobility network. And so I looked at that. I asked the question, gave a bad answer from AI. And some people then say, AI useless for investing. So see, my job's secure. I'm totally done. And I said, OK, well, let me put in a business plan and say, what's the due diligence? Like if I was doing the work of doing due diligence on this business plan. And it gave a great list. and part of that great list was like, oh yeah, I would have thought about item three probably a week into it, right? And actually getting all the thoughts up front allowed me to do a faster, you know, kind of, oh, you know, I'm going to ignore questions two, seven, and six, but five, I'm going to really focus on that because that's what I think is really important.

57:04And that's an accelerant and we get these accelerations. And I think one of the lenses for thinking about how, like, AI changes things, and this is why you get to these kind of realizations, and you think, what should I be doing to reinvent myself? Is AI increases the speed of the game. It's like your thinking you're creating is much more like a video game. And so you can go, give me 100 options, right? Because I can do that now. Whereas if you said, hey, I had three research assistants that said, give me 100 options. It's not just because like, whoa, I'm asking a lot of them, but also like, okay, a month later, here's your 100 options.

57:41Whereas now with AI, you could say, give me 100 options and 15 minutes later. We do that with YouTube titles quite a bit. I mean, we do it with - We should probably do it with our business, I guess. Like give us 50 weaknesses and give us 50 places we could go to reinvent. 100%. Yeah, I mean, one way that I've used it quite a bit with our guests is I actually ask it to write a press release about the episode after the fact. And it kind of reflects back to me what the expectations of the episode would be. And then I kind of push what's like the controversial version of that press release. What's the educational version of that press release?

58:15And the perspective that I can gain in a matter of five minutes is pretty unbelievable. I've also used it in ways to support my dad's health and built him essentially a conversation within GPT to help him understand what he can and can't eat based on his conditions, which is unbelievable. And I've used it to plan trips, you know, like with my wife. but in the context of creativity yeah we i i've used it to ask also the question of like give me the blind spots right so if we write a script for something i'm like what what would you as an audience member say you're missing here or what what do you think is is not clear in this um which is pretty amazing i do find it interesting reed that you know with all your success uh you presumably could just go i don't want to do anything anymore right you could just do whatever your hobbies are.

59:07I don't know what your hobbies are, but. Well, my hobbies are talking to my friends. Okay. So then you are doing that, but you choose, you choose to be a content creator, which I find really interesting. You have Master of Scale, which is a great podcast, and you also write quite a bit. So just curious about your relationship to being a creator yourself and how that came about, how that feels today and how you're using AI to, to enhance your own creativity. Yeah. And part of it is like, since I think that part of like creating the future, inventing the future, discovering the future is, is, is engaging and experimenting.

59:42So I wanted to show that. I don't want to just tell it, I want to show it. So use AI in making video, use AI in doing podcasts, use AI in writing books. Like the book before super agency was impromptu, it's the first book on AI co-written with AI to show and do versus, and, and part of that it's a personal journey. It's I'm exploring these topics. I'm learning things. But it's also a, I think part of what makes life magical is going on journeys with other people. So it's like kind of sharing the journey. It's kind of like, here is stuff that I'm thinking about exploring. Here's stuff that I hope could be useful and relevant to other people.

1:00:19And I'm trying to make that the case. And so most of the stuff I do is kind of ideas around the world as I have found it and the world as I think it's becoming? And how can I help us all kind of, you know, head down that road in a kind of an elevating humanity way? What have you learned about the business of being a creator? Well, one of the things that perhaps I'm fortunate about is like, I don't have, for me, my business has been more investing in tech creating. So the, you know, I'm aware of all the economics around doing these things. And I pay attention to them because I pay attention to the kind of economic infrastructure.

1:01:04But for me, the, the, it's like, for example, people say, oh, do you want more book sales for super agencies? Like, well, look, I'm happy to have more book sales, but what I really want is people getting that kind of that inspiration about becoming AI curious about what could possibly go right and how that could make a big difference for them. And that matters to me more than did someone buy the book or not. But I, like, it only really works because there are business ecosystems. The kind of things you guys do, I think, is really critical because that's what funds the, hey, like a number of different voices, a number of different creations, a number of different experiences, because underlying, it has to have an economic model that works.

1:01:49So Super Agency, the book that you wrote, how did you use AI to support that creation? If you're advising creators, writers, storytellers in general, we all at some point have to sit down and write our concepts out. Is that the form that you used AI to support? Well, so the first one we put the impromptu, I kind of put the prompts and answers in the show. Super Agency, one, you solve the blank page problem. So you go, this is the kind of thing I'm thinking about talking about. Like, okay, prompt and get an answer. But I think almost none of the sentences were actually things that came from an AI.

1:02:26It was iterative. So the one was kind of the cold start problem. But then another one was, okay, we're writing about what we think happens with the printing press. You feed that in and you say, okay, how would historians of the printing press critique this? And kind of not surprisingly, they'd say, well, you're a little simplistic about this. It was like, yeah, but my being simplistic about this is important because I'm trying to get to this other point. And sometimes you're like, oh, I probably shouldn't be simple. Let's mod this a little bit. Let's hedge it. Let's add in something. So kind of as a foil, as an editor, and this is actually one of the things that I find is a good way of thinking about AI is it takes roles.

1:03:06Like it can take a role of argue against me. It can take a role of argue for me. But it also can take a role of you're a historian of technology, say this. or you're a, like, for example, you know, you're for an audience of entrepreneurs or creators. What's the top three questions or earlier blind spots that might be here that's something I should fix and improve? And it might be, no, no, those are all fine. But you're all, oh, this one's really important. Then you add it in. Yeah, one of my favorite things to do is take a complex topic and say, give me five simple analogies. Give me five analogies in the world of sports.

1:03:41Give me five analogies in the world of anything, of business, right? And make it accessible. Exactly. Because you can, no matter what, you can scroll through them and distinguish, oh yeah, number four, clearly everyone will understand. Yeah, that's the resonance. I do think for creators to understand that AI can take a role is really important because you can go... you can put in your concept for your video and go, you are a Hollywood screenwriter. How would you change this? Or where is it boring? Should there be a twist? I think that is like, that's a role that we used to have to find someone.

1:04:13Actually, you never had access to an expert like that. You're Orson Welles. How would you change this? How would you change this? Yeah. Well, I appreciate that. I appreciate you taking the time. And I want to read you a quote just to end it because I pulled this quote and I think it's actually really representative of our conversation. It's from Arthur Schopenhauer. He says, every man takes the limits of his own field of vision for the limits of the world. And I think that's representative of what we're talking about. It's just, we have a view of what the creator economy looks like today, what the internet looks like today.

1:04:45And if we only limit ourselves to that view, we might not see what's actually happening. A hundred percent. And by the way, Schopenhauer, just to tie back to the other one, part of Schopenhauer was taking some of the things he'd learned from studying of Hinduism and bringing them into Western philosophy. That's right. Well, appreciate it, Reid. Pleasure so much. Awesome. All right, we should talk about just our conversation with Reid AI. Pretty sure that's the first AI I've interviewed. I mean, like, how did you feel doing it? I think the weirdest thing is that towards the end, you just sink in and you're engaged in the conversation.

1:05:20In the beginning, you're looking for the AI-ness of it all. You're seeing how long it takes for him to respond, wondering if the answers are going to be weird. But by the end, you're just like, I could ask a million more questions. So there's a term like hedonic adaptation, right? Which essentially is like, you know, when we experience a new thing, we just kind of return to a state of normalcy when that new thing happens. And I felt that in talking to the AI avatar, where like exactly what you're saying. beginning you're like what's going on and then when we started asking about his book it was just like yeah now i'm just curious i just want to know the answers i think that's when it's at its best because it's a new entertainment experience it's not an audio book it's not reading the book it's having a conversation sort of with the book so i want to talk a little bit about like why have reed hoffman on the show and why have this discussion because i do think we get a lot of feedback about talking about AI.

1:06:18And I am fascinated by AI. I think it's like one of the most truly revolutionary things I've seen in my life as a creator is some of the stuff that you can get in response to you prompting ChatGPT. It's the craziest thing I've seen, truly. I mean, like you want to generate new ads for your product. You want to generate a thumbnail. You want to generate a poster. You want to generate anything. It just comes back with it. And I actually think it's really important to sit down with people who are optimistic about it because there's a lot of pessimism in like the natural state. Actually, something Reed said, the natural state is like to be afraid.

1:06:57Now, there are a lot of real fears. People are losing jobs right now. That is a real thing that's happening. So I think there's like a mix of things, but I think the more we talk about and kind of dive into it and go like, what is on the other side of this is really important because we are experiencing essentially a Napster moment for all media. Yes. So I want to dive into that a little bit, a Napster moment. Yeah. Because when Napster came out, the music industry freaked out. All of a sudden you could get music for free. Now, what has since happened is that a model emerged to pay artists for that music that was being given away for free.

1:07:36Right? You have all of these streamers who are figuring out ways that maybe it's not perfect, but they are compensating artists. My concern with what's happening with AI right now, I've myself called it, it's a Napster moment for visuals. But the more I dig into it, I don't think they're comparable because with Napster, people got compensated. I don't know if I believe that artists will find a way to be compensated this time around. Right? If you're an illustrator, so you can take a photo of someone's illustration and then upload a photo of yourself and say hey transfer the illustration style of this design to my photo and it will do it and it will not credit or pay the artist and there's probably no way for that artist to get paid at least that i know of right now yeah and we could come up with models that we think based on the world today that like oh you can license it and we're not but but actually think or if every piece of artwork has like a metadata in it.

1:08:33Yeah. Right. That like maybe gets tracked. You're web threeing out right now with that, which is maybe, maybe, maybe, maybe. But I do think the most important thing about this conversation is like the way Reed thinks and talks, he's suggesting that the next version of our reality is very different from this version of reality. And I think the hard thing is that we are rooting all of our thoughts in today's reality. And back to the Napster conversation. musicians they to this day like cd sales are never the same they're never the same that's like there were you could make money on cd sales back in the day record sales yeah yeah you you just cannot make money on your album dropping anymore really unless you're like top top top top 0.001 but you make money on touring right and so now we're talking about like when you're talking about artists there commissioned work might not be as much of a revenue stream anymore and and let's talk about it in our specific world like thumbnail design i think on youtube is where some of like the the most commissioned kind of art is right that might go away realistically because you can prompt different types of images you can composite them together and like, you know, or at the worst version of it, you can just replace your face on someone else's thumbnail.

1:09:54Um, and that's like, that's the worst version of it. Um, so that, that like whole cottage industry might go away. And similar to in music, how like record sales was no longer part of it today. If you're a musician and you want to make money, you make money from touring. So that might be the question is like, as we get into the creator economies, if you're a thumbnail designer like what's the next thing what is it but musicians made money from touring anyway yeah it was always an option that's fair yeah yeah so i i don't i believe that like you need you need to lean in and you need to move towards the future and where everything's going right like i do believe you need to embrace all of it to figure out what the next path is for you if you are feeling like you're you have job instability but i just i don't know yet i guess the different options are out there.

1:10:46Napster was made by a guy, Sean Parker. These tools are made by like big companies. Like OpenAI is a big, well-funded company. And it's not Napster. It's not made by a dude. It's a company that is essentially electing to go, you know what? You can take someone's thumbnail and just replace your face. Yeah. And it's the Apples of the world, the Googles of the world, the Microsofts of the world. It's these metas of the world. and I think what I still have issue with and a lot of people have issue with is when I asked Reed well is the argument that it's okay because it happens at such a grand scale that your data even if it was scraped is such a small segment of it and I think his answer was somewhat well yeah right that it's like it's not okay on the micro level if someone steals your work right put my face on this thumbnail that's not okay that's like very blatant, right?

1:11:44That's stealing no matter what method you go about it. But taking the data without permission is still an issue, but it's almost like, do we just need, I think we almost just need to give up on that, right? You just need to go like, okay, like it's happened now, it's done, right? So you can harp on that being an issue, but these things already exist and the world seems to be moving on. So how do you evolve and change and adapt to that? Yeah, he brought up three different things there. And this is me just trying to talk through it for myself. Some of it is like, one is he was talking about like broad training, right?

1:12:20So what you're talking about is like mass training on data. What he's saying is that is akin to human inspiration, which is a hard thing to wrap your head around. But basically what he's saying is like, if I ingest a lot of inspiration, if I make a Pinterest board and then design something off of that, he's saying the training on a big, broad set of data is similar to that. similar similar i know i know i know the next is remixing or style mimicry which essentially is like if i go you have a drawing style and i go i want that exact style he's saying that should require some attribution or licensing and then the third is like direct copying or deep fakes and those should be regulated or blocked so there's kind of three tiers here broad training which is like chat to bt right now i could be like you know write me an essay that's about this and it would just based on its broad training model, give me an essay back, you know, or give me a recipe for salmon.

1:13:17And it would give it to me based on its broad training on how to cook salmon. Remixing or style mimicry, that is a problem. Hey, I want something in this exact style. Give me a Mr. Beast thumbnail. If I prompt in that direction, there should be a trigger there that goes, okay, you just prompted me for a specific type of IP. There should be attribution or a licensing fee. and then direct copying, which should be illegal. But we're talking about, again, should-bes in a world of today. And I think that AI and the internet moves at a pace that's very different from the pace of regulation. Also, regulation is often at odds with making money.

1:14:00Capitalism. Capitalism. Right. So when you asked, why haven't platforms moved fast enough to regulate even deepfix? when we brought up the rich role example. Yeah. And I thought what Reed said was pretty honest when he said, oh, well, I think if people are watching and enjoying them, it may not be in their best interest to take them down. Yeah, or it's just not the top priority right now. Yeah, I do think he did double down and say, if it really erodes trust between the viewer and the creator, then yes, that's a major issue. Yeah. The thing that Reed suggested just in all of this, one of the things that was interesting, he suggested like ai judges like agents that are inside of let's say like inside of your chat gpt you know chat there's there's an agent which essentially there is sometimes you prompt it and it says this violates our content policy um so sometimes there is but essentially agents that are like i mean this is wild but he's essentially suggesting like police like internet police that are ai agents ai policing ai right yeah but it's ai policing ai and like couldn't ai outsmart itself I don't know, but it's an interesting thing that we are getting to a point where the internet is a space that we once occupied is now going to be occupied more by AI agents than us.

1:15:17Right? Yeah. And it's going to have to police itself for what results it gives us. And then what is our role in that ecosystem? I don't know. I think we're like prompters and training data. but again now i'm getting back to fear and this is this is i think part of reed and part of the reason to sit down with reed is like reed is very realistic he's not saying this stuff's not going to happen he's just saying it's happening so he said i'm not saying that there won't be when you brought up friends of ours losing their jobs he said there will be they will be painful it will be painful yeah like we're not suggesting that this change isn't going to be horribly uncomfortable It might be really uncomfortable, but it is happening.

1:15:58And like even sitting and talking to read AI's avatar, you can, you can take that at, at, you know, face value and go, cool. But you can actually look at it and go, wait, no, obviously this is where things are going. Right. And again, it's not going to be the end all be all. It's not the only way we're going to engage with people on the internet, but it is going to be a very significant way that we engage with people is through AI avatars and AI agents. It's already happening. I think the way to understand it and believe what you just said is to frame it as an extension of meme culture, which you said when we were talking with Reed.

1:16:34I think that's how it will be adopted first. We're already taking images and iterating on them as memes, right? Like things that we can make really quickly to comment on what's happening today, right now. The next phase of that is, like I said, okay, today you wake up and it turns out for some reason, Leonardo DiCaprio is the face that we will all be creating with today because he did something funny. He's a topic of conversation maybe. And now we're all using his likeness to make iterative memes about what happened today. Yeah. And we, we already are doing that through memes. Just not in AI video avatars.

1:17:09Just not in the way where - That are indistinguishable from real life. Yeah. The question is like, will you be able to tell, you know, the rich role example that we talked about in the episode like that's that's a problem and that's a problem in the short term for individual creators it's a problem for us it's a problem for other creators whose business is brand deals um again the distribution platform is not it's a problem for them if if they lose some creators but if we're just talking for real it's clearly not a priority problem for them because they would have solved it by now it also is just going to get more interesting yeah like this is only the beginning so you let read ai tap into your webcam and see what's in your world and all of a sudden he can interact with things that are happening in your world behind you and talk to you about the room and the other people because like the read ai couldn't actually see you or me couldn't distinguish between if i was speaking really or if you were speaking yeah but that's coming but that's coming once they enable webcam because you can already you know hold your phone up, take a photo and it knows what you're looking at.

1:18:13The next is as video models get better, you know, if I had asked read AI, which I did before we started recording, like, can you cover your ears? Can you put your hands over your ears? He couldn't move. It was just like a static sort of version of him. But once he's able to move around the room and now we're having a two-way experience where like he's bringing up things in our environment and we're bringing up things that he's responding to in his environment. Like that is a very interesting form of entertainment. Oh, I think that's going to take off on Twitch. That's going to be live entertainment.

1:18:48Again, I brought up VTubers because I think that's a really important proxy. And like you look at one and you go, yeah, read it. I think that's not going to take off for a while. But then you look at VTubers and Norasama and like fully AI generated VTubers are like, well, actually, no, totally. That'll definitely take off soon. Like you will definitely have, I'm sure you'll see Twitch streamers launch like a AI version of themselves soon where they're responding to chat. And again, if you pay a certain amount of money, it'll say something funny. Right. And what Reed is saying is like all of us, if we have AI avatars, we'll set like parameters around them of how you can prompt us and how you can use us.

1:19:24It is though like, you know, this, this zoom out now and go continuing to think about if we were just starting today with all this knowledge about how the world is changing? How would we start? I really don't know the answer to that question. All I know is that I really appreciate Reed's perspective of entrepreneurship and some of the things he said on our show of like default dead. I actually think that's such an important framework to recognize of like, if you're doing something, you're starting a YouTube channel, you're creating a startup, you have an idea and you're trying to get it off the ground.

1:20:02Even a video, a video is default dead, right? Like an idea is just dead unless you are pumping air into it constantly. And I think now not only are we default dead, we're like default being hunted. You know what I mean? By like - Wasn't this supposed to be the optimistic episode? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But this is me. I'm like shaking in my boots over here. But it shouldn't scare you. It's like you're choosing to play this game. Are they default being hunted? Yeah, but you're choosing to play the game. There's other games you can play if you don't want to deal with this, I think. By that, you mean try and get a stable job?

1:20:40Yeah, get a different job, get something else that's like maybe doesn't have - People are losing their jobs, Samir. I know, but I'm saying maybe you're not. The creative field right now is more amorphous than it's ever been. Yeah. And if you are in creativity, you're choosing to be in the world that is just kind of finding itself right now and might be finding itself for the next couple of years. Also establishing a creative career has never been easy. It's never been a given. Like never in every creative field, there's only been a select handful of people who've been able to survive and make it a living.

1:21:13So there are actually more people being creative, making a living than ever before because the creator economy has opened up opportunities for people in every niche. Yeah. So like as dark as it does sound, it's actually still never been a better time. Yeah. And the optimistic view is like, truly, I do feel like I have superpowers, which is Reed's new book, Super Agency. Like I do feel when I open up ChatGPT and I need to write something, I really feel like I have superpowers or, you know, and this is, this is a part where I feel really conflicted, but when I need to, when I want to design something and see what something would look like, like, you know, know, I was just poking around the other day, wanting a design for, you know, this like fun idea of inviting all of our friends over on Sunday mornings to, you know, my place for coffee.

1:22:00And I was like, Oh, cool. What does like a Sunday morning coffee club logo look like? So I just pulled a logo off the internet that I liked and put it in the chat GPT and was like, make this for me. And it did it. And that is a very, like, I do feel like I have superpowers. I feel like I can design now and I can have a cool logo that I can send or like, dude, the bespoke nature of the, the, the essentially meme I showed you this morning that I sent to a friend where I took her podcast artwork and I changed it to say something else based on a joke we were making and sent it to her. I'm able to send like a bespoke meme, um, and generate it like that.

1:22:34It does feel like I've, you've never felt so alive. No, I've never, I think I got, I could feel, you can't hear it, but I could feel through my world. I've always had these abilities. You have, but it just takes me time. It takes time. And sometimes when you're in the, you know, Now, listen, a joke in a group chat, it's got to happen fast. That's true. You can't go, hey, hold on. This joke is happening right now. I'm going to go design for an hour, and then I'm going to come back and try and catch this thread. Like that joke, I was able to land that with that image within like 60 seconds. So let's talk about the logo you're making for this friendly coffee club hangout.

1:23:10Yep. There's a world where you would have paid someone for that. Yep. if that happens at scale and you're that designer, what, what do you do? I, I, I have no idea. Yeah. You just pivot potentially really hard. Like I, I think about myself when you were hiring me at early stages many, many years ago, that's a really cool logo. Damn. That's a great logo. Yeah. Yeah. Damn. Sunday morning coffee club. Yeah. So, but, but what do you do? How do I feel about this, right? Because I'm also like, I don't want to like smile at the camera and be like, look how great this is. Cause like, you're right. I actually did at times.

1:23:49Like I remember when Upwork and Fiverr came out. I mean, granted it was, it was, it was cheaper design. So I didn't have to commit, but I always found it hard with designers. Really good designers are very expensive. And, um, when those came out, I would toy around there and be like, Ooh, can I try a design for 50 bucks or a hundred bucks? And they were like mediocre. Now you go for 20 bucks a month, I can get incredible logo design. That is a real problem. If I'm a designer, if I'm a logo designer and I feel conflicted about this cause I'm like, no, I want the person to get paid, but you scale this out and you look at business and, you know, media companies and it's like, obviously they're going to do.

1:24:25But the pace at which I need to make memes is insatiable. Yeah. Or like imagine merch designs for a company. If they have to. No, it's all funneling into this. Yeah. Yeah. So what do you do? I think, you know we can say you you develop taste and you explore like how can you be the one who can like guide a brand and think in a direction but i don't know the answer i think i think right now you just have to be really open to the possibilities and put your ear to the ground and go like where where am i valuable i think this is forcing a lot of people to be entrepreneurs yeah it might you know but yeah whether you lose your job or need to adapt it's forcing people to think about where are there opportunities for them to make a living like that you have to have your eyes open to where opportunities may be right which is like a very entrepreneurial type of thing as opposed to like let me just see what jobs are available and get a job more so now the lens you may need is where are there communities that are underserved that need something and can i provide value to them now my uh deep belief is that creators are going nowhere uh it is getting more competitive though and by that you mean creators are going everywhere and they will yeah like creators aren't like we're not going nowhere we're going to the top yeah yeah sorry i'm saying like they aren't they aren't leaving i'm not sitting here being like if you make youtube videos like it's over it's not it's it's not at all because we are an iteration of the radio which is something that i said on the show.

1:25:56It's like, uh, we, we came out of a medium that already existed and it's the same thing now. It's like, actually as human beings, we've always looked for guides and shepherds and curators, you know, of information, uh, forever. I don't believe that we will fully go algorithmic for it. I think it will be enhanced by it and, and, and it will be changed, but, um, there always be space for great storytellers. Um, but the second entrepreneurial kind of framework that we talked about was competitive blindness, which means like, where are you blind to competition? And I think the, uh, you know, as, as YouTubers, we probably, we look at other creators in our niche, right.

1:26:35And we go, that's our competition. But now no matter what you do, your competition is also AI. It just is both from like consumption time. If you're a creator, like I mentioned, like I do think it's really fun to prompt and that's, that is a competitive element to what we do. Um, but also just from like my value that I provide, right? Like, I mean, one of the things we asked Reed, which is a challenge is like, what are the top three stories in the creator economy? And he gave us really good answers. Reed AI, I mean, and like, if I'm driving in my car eventually and I can just call Reed AI or like have him as a voice and be like, tell me what's going on.

1:27:13What's that Netflix deal all about? Huh? That's interesting. How does that relate? Keep going on that. Yeah. Everything is hyper personalized to the exact way that you want it. Yeah. Like if you're listening to this right now and you actually just want to stop us and ask a question, you can't. But the experience I just had is that you can. But here's my, here's where I think the published press is defensible, right? The published press, our newsletter, three stories a week that you're talking about. And we, you know, you can ask an AI, what are the top three stories? One, we're grabbing stories from all over.

1:27:44Yep. Right. Every single platform, personal connections, all different types of things. We're getting original quotes from creators that are happening like that day that are not scrapable. Yeah. So there's that. But the other side of it is we are doing in-person events. Yes. And there's no, I do not believe that there is anything. I mean, I could be corrected, but I don't think there's anything, at least in the immediate, that is going to replace that feeling of going to an event and meeting other people who are into the thing that you're into. I 100 % agree with that. I think, I 100 % agree. It's also, I think we've brought this up, maybe we haven't but like when we had this experience at spot or something at the beginning of the year of talking to kevin hart he talked about how he still does stand-up comedy and he doesn't need to do stand-up comedy anymore he's kevin hart but not only does he do it because he enjoys it but he does it because he thinks he believes a he needs an opportunity for his community to gather but b he wants to go see them he wants to go see their faces and the there's nothing that replaces like a fun night out right you say he doesn't need to because he's kevin hart but his perspective actually was that he he does his perspective was he doesn't his perspective was that he does need to that that it's what makes him who he is that it's his competitive advantage and i i understand what you're saying like he doesn't have he's kevin hart he could just make movies and chill he doesn't tour maybe he's the way he is and he's so successful because he's still on tour.

1:29:16I also think there's just a human desire to do it. I asked Reed this question too, of just like, like Reed sold his company to Microsoft for$26 billion. Like Reed does not need to make podcasts to like, you know, he just doesn't. It's just, he enjoys doing it and he wants to get these thoughts out. And I thought something that was interesting is he said like, he's able to like be in the practice and start to like, you know, think as an author because he's in these conversations right and i just really like that i think that is true and i think we all like that and i think in that line of being at events i think that's why it'll never go away is because actually just like being in the energy of other humans it's like how we like process life and maybe i'm getting too existential now but i think this is an existential question that that is happening um it starts with this notion of creation and the internet but it starts to zoom out into like human existence.

1:30:12Too far? Yeah. I was off in space by the end of that. Okay. Too far. Okay. All right. Maybe that's where we are. Some people are with you, but I think that's a good place to close. Yeah. Yeah. My closing thought is Reed Hoffman's been a hero of mine for a long time. I loved masters of scale. I think even in doing research for this episode, like nobody has articulated entrepreneurship in the way that he does. And I think AI is the next big challenge for entrepreneurs. There's always challenges for entrepreneurs. Daily basis, there's a challenge. And I think AI is presenting a big challenge. But the way Reid articulates it, which I really like and appreciate, is a more optimistic view.

1:30:48It's like, take it as an opportunity. Purely. It is. It is. Just like, sit with Chachuputin and see how it can give you superpowers. And recognize that whatever the world looks like today, it very well might not look like tomorrow. And you have to have an open mind to that. so can i share a gripe with you now that we're in the deep end of this condo yeah please that coffee club logo how long ago did you make it uh yeah i didn't i didn't share with you why what's the deal is it because i'm not in the club or is it because you do you think you were going to get an invite to the club because there's a subset of people this could be a see okay now this is a multi-layered gripe now that i've learned that other people have seen that nobody's seen it that you're the first person i'm the first person yeah yeah i i was prompting for a while then in that case this is the first time in show history i'll redact yeah redact the gripe with the gripe yeah but i should have shown it to you this is the type of thing that this is the reason we still work together yeah this is the type of thing we would like have a good time talking about yeah yeah yeah but but i you know why i haven't shown it to you you're ashamed yeah because i'm ashamed i feel a sense of guilt yeah because i i essentially stole someone's typography and i feel i feel guilt around it so i don't know you could always it's a safe space if you share it with me and say, hey, here's the source.

1:31:59I want to give credit to this person, at least privately. Yeah, it's crazy though, man. What a crazy time. Oh, man. I would love to hear your guys' thoughts on this conversation. I'd love to hear how you're thinking about AI. I think there's definitely a lot of fear around it, but I do think it is an important exercise, even if you don't believe it, to be optimistic about it and to think about how you can utilize AI to actually push yourself forward. So let us know. You can comment here on Spotify, by the way. Do you know that? I did know that. Yeah. But if you're listening on another platform, then come over to Spotify and comment.

1:32:34I've started noticing that on Spotify, people are like gaming the comments and like writing really funny comments that they know people are going to like, and they're becoming the top comment. It's... All right. We're so deep in the deep end. Thanks for listening to this episode. Time to go. Thank you to read. We'll see you guys next week.

1:32:53you