Should creators unionize?

0:00The Colin and Samir Show is supported by Microsoft Copilot. This is something I thought I would never say, but can I share with you my favorite prompt? I mean, like when you say something like that, I have to say yes. Were you going to say no? No, but okay. Just let me hear it. So when I'm researching for a guest or I need to know a lot about a subject matter, I say, make me a podcast about. And when you do that, you're going to get a short blurb about that subject. And then in like two minutes, you're going to get a podcast. So check this out. Welcome to Co-Pilot Podcasts. Picture this, a guy working the front desk at a hotel, making lacrosse videos in his spare time, completely unaware that he's about to become one of the most influential voices in the creator economy.

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1:10Try it for your research. Try it for getting variations of your titles, your ideas. It's one of my favorite tools on the internet right now for our creativity. And now back to the show. What's up, everyone? Welcome to this episode of Creator Support. On today's episode, we dive into a new creators union that emerged. We also talk about starting your career as a creator later in life and the complexities of the creator-editor relationship. All right, if you make it to the deep end, let us know. All right, we're audio only this week. We are audio only, and I'm a little under the weather. You are under the weather.

1:46Everyone from the Northeast is under the weather. I traveled back for a wedding to the Northeast, and so did a couple of our colleagues. Everyone came back sick. That's right. I don't know what's going on over there, but... You know, the other thing we should talk about is we have a new table. Yes, that's true. We are sitting right now in our studio with a table that is an exact replica of our old table, but twice the size. Yeah, it is a five-foot table. It's incredible that this is the first time we've actually invested in the table that we record at. The other table that we've had was just one that was handed to us by someone who was moving out of an office.

2:26So I just wanted to bring that up. Funny that I'm doing it on an audio podcast where you cannot see. Yeah, sorry, everybody. But you'll see it. This table is twice the size and twice the shine. Is it twice the shine or twice the sheen? It's a shiny table. It's a shiny table. Okay, so for today's episode, we wanted to talk about some news that was announced this week. specifically around creators.org, which is marketed as a united voice for creators, essentially a union for creators. And this was something that, you know, was in discussion for a long time. We've heard discussions about this. We actually found out through this that there's another union called the Creators Guild of America.

3:14And I want to preface this conversation by saying I'm not that familiar with unions. Same. I'm not that familiar. I have a general understanding, but I'm not that familiar. And I'd like to speak to the creators of this, specifically Ezra Cooperstein from Night Media, who is very much involved and behind this. But I wanted to talk about it and maybe open up some conversation and dialogue for those of you who are listening to give us your perspective on this and explain to us some of the stuff. But hopefully we can get Ezra on to talk about it next week. So the mission statement for Creators.org is a nonprofit organization with the mission to advance the rights of creators around the world to build a better digital ecosystem.

4:01There's no dues to join. They're fully nonprofit, and they are using donations and sponsorships to fund their efforts. The members right now that they market are Ryan Trahan, Sophia Nygaard, Isaiah Photo, a few other creators that I think are all represented by Night Media. They're essentially some of the stuff that they talk about. They say that their key focus areas are income, so equitable monetization for all creators, ownership, securing a seat at the table with platforms to drive accountability to creators, fair data policy, advocating for fair and transparent data policies for creators, creator well-being, creator health, well -being.

4:39and sustainability, diversity and inclusion, and artificial intelligence, navigating the impact of AI in the creator landscape and creative industries. Yeah. Basically, creators.org is highlighting on the website that there's an imbalance in power between like the tech giants who have these platforms and creators and that creators need some sort of ability to come together and protect themselves, advocate for themselves moving forward, which high level I think makes. I'm with that. Makes sense. Yeah, I'm with that. I think especially when it comes to our relationship as creators to the tech platforms that we use to distribute our content, that is a relationship that probably needs, as time goes on, some level of, you know, a next chapter of sophistication, right?

5:29Collectively, we have no ability to communicate outside of hosting. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Yeah, we really don't. And you think about like, you know, a labor. Remember when, sorry to cut you off, but remember when Kylie Jenner kept posting about how Instagram stopped putting photos on the feed? She's like the Derek Fisher of Instagram. Yeah. The head of the Players Association. Yeah, I mean, that's kind of. And Instagram was like, Adam Massari was like, okay, heard. Yeah. To me, I can kind of understand this in the context of the NBA Players Association negotiating with the NBA for player rights.

6:06But, you know, there is a key difference to how we all operate as creators. We are talent, yes. but as we're building platforms, we're building media distribution platforms which are in the business of advertising, those rates are subjective, right? Like based on relevance, reach, brand, there's so much subjectivity to a brand deal that that is not something that is, could ever be a part of this in my opinion. You can't go to brands and be like, this is equitable monetization. You can, though, I guess, turn to YouTube, Twitch, Twitter maybe even or X and say, hey, the percentage needs to be higher, I guess.

6:51Or in the context of YouTube, one example could be negotiating or coming to the table about memberships. It's something that we talked to Neil, the CEO of YouTube, talked to him about how their membership split is 70-30. We believe it should be more in favor of creators. And maybe that's something that like creators org can come to YouTube and suggest. Maybe that's what the potential outcomes can be. Yeah, it seems like it. I don't think it's probably right to compare this to, you know, like the Screen Actors Guild or the Directors Guild, right? I, you know, I'm so used to the history of those strikes where it just means you can't work if you're a part of one of those guilds or unions.

7:42And that's always kind of scared me. Whenever I've looked at some of my friends who are working in the more traditional Hollywood side out here and there's a strike and they're like, I can't work anymore. And now I'm doing Uber Eats. I'm like, man, I would never want to put myself in that position. I understand that, you know, you want to be a part of the union. You have to be a part of the union. And you want to advocate for all of the writers like you. But it feels so different than what we do because we're all so different as creators. Like our situation is different. The platform we work with, our audiences are so different.

8:19It's hard to imagine or compare the two. It feels much more bespoke in what we do than in Hollywood. And I don't think also that like, even this union, it seems unlikely we would ever get to a place where like all the creators have banded together and they're like, we're not going to post anymore. But who knows? Who knows? Who knows, man? Maybe that's possible. Could you imagine if, I don't even want to say, I don't think that would happen. I don't think so. I don't know. We should talk to creators.org. Yeah, yeah, for sure. I'm super curious about this. You know, the thing about, you know, my father-in-law is a, or just retired, but was a cinematographer and director of photography for years in Hollywood.

9:05He's part of the Guild and a very, very proud member of the Guild. He, you know, has incredible healthcare where he gets to go to motion picture hospital. There's like a hospital for people in the industry, you know, that he can go to with the health insurance. His like retirement is fantastic. Like he's a very proud member of the guild. And I think it's created a lot of great scenarios for people like him and people in the industry who are doing a trade, you know, and working on a day rate or a project basis with the studios. I just think that although what we're doing is similar, it's very different.

9:47Because Colin and Samir LLC, the company, right? You and I, what we do, we operate a media distribution outlet, like a network that sells advertising. So we're going to make decisions based on that. Like you don't see really a unionization of media companies, right? right? It's not like Bleacher Report and Barstool and BuzzFeed are in a union. They're not. And that's actually, you know, a lot of us are more similar to those companies. We make content, we attract an audience of a certain type, and we sell advertising against that, which is different than if you and I were hosts and getting paid by a network to show up every day and produce a show or be talent in a show.

10:38That's super different. And so I'm very curious what the suggestion is here, if it is like us as these modern media companies collective bargaining with platforms. I'm curious why they felt like this needed to happen now and why. I mean, I know, you know, Hank Green was, you mentioned the other union before. People have tried to do this. I'm curious, you know, were there certain things that happened with the platforms? or is there a certain reason why this really needs to happen right now? It might be just, you know, in anticipation. You know, I do think we have to acknowledge that we are getting into a place where this is no longer, you know, years from now, this is no longer going to be called the creator economy.

11:28This is just modern entertainment. And I think that's where they're looking at historical and what has worked in entertainment to date. And how do we apply that? Because this is the modern entertainment industry. And somebody has to recognize that and advocate on that behalf. But I do think it's very different. Taking the playbook of what has worked in the past and applying it to what we're doing might not work. I also just wonder, you know, it's free to sign up. Like, what's the criteria to be a part of the union when everyone seems like a creator? You know, in a traditional trade, you're either doing the trade or you're not.

12:07with creators, there are people who just, you can get millions of views, but you may not like consider yourself a creator. You're just like an active user, right? Or your motivations are different. You have a business. So you create content about the business. Right. It was interesting. I saw in my Instagram stories, uh, Taylor offer who, uh, runs a, uh, apparel company called feet. Yeah. Called feet. He, you know, is like a creator in his own right. And he, He posted on TikTok like the three worst places to live, the three worst cities to live in in your 20s. And it got picked up by the media.

12:43It was everywhere. And they called him like this TikToker or this content creator ranked, you know, the three worst cities. And he reposted it and said, why do they call – like I'm not a content creator. Like I'm not a content creator. I'm not a TikToker. But he's like I'm like an entrepreneur. I'm a founder. Yeah. I think that's interesting that I think still traditional media, if you post something on one of these platforms and it does well, you are a TikToker just because your video did well. But like, of course not. Like that would imply that he just creates content for a living. Right. Like, I mean, the exact same scenario, my brother, you know, operates a, uh, our family's clothing brand and posts on social to attract an audience to purchase clothing.

13:32Is he a creator? You know, and I, and I think the reality is when we have the conversation around creators, the answer is no. Yeah. He's an e-commerce operator or like a fashion brand operator. But could he be a part of the union, even though his motivations for posting are totally different than someone who actually makes money like a media business from advertising? The suggestion of what a creator is today is someone who is posting video, audio, or maybe written, I'll add written in there, and monetizing through advertising, right? I think so. I think that's what— But there are some people who monetize through a Patreon, like memberships.

14:09Sure, or memberships, yeah. So that's the thing. It feels very bespoke because there also could be someone who's monetizing in a totally different way. like hosting and getting like, you know, speaking gigs. Yeah. And like marketing themselves through content. So, you know, the equitable monetization for all creators, I do think the same way, like you can apply the studios are to actors as platforms are to creators, maybe. Yeah. I think that's probably - Obviously there are a ton of differences there, but - Yeah, but that one works for me. I'm like, okay, I'm cool with that. The ownership, I like that.

14:49Hey, you know, is there an opportunity for us to have more ownership over our data and our audience? Yeah. I mean, if there's like a, you know, you can approach a platform and try and figure that out, that'd be great. I mean, our business would be in a very different, probably much better place. If we owned some of the data. If over the past seven years, we've had the emails of the people who've subscribed and we've had a way to actually communicate with them because we really can't. No, we really can't. Yeah, totally. Especially on, I mean, on all platforms, but yeah. Yeah. Creator wellbeing.

15:22I think when I look at some of these focus areas, like creating resources for that, or like if you are a part of this union, you get access to this from a wellbeing perspective. I do like that. I think of that as like health insurance or, you know, other factors that are involved. And in that scenario, you would have to pay dues. Yeah, then you have to pay dues. You have to pay dues. But that would be fine. And maybe that's the future of this union is that certain creators who are at a level where they can afford the dues will pay to be a part of it. Yeah. Diversity and inclusion, I'm all for that, of course.

15:56I don't know how that shows up, but maybe it's advocating on behalf of more diverse creators on platforms, again, on platforms probably. And then artificial intelligence, like that is going to be one of the most important focus areas moving forward is just someone has to represent that conversation. because again, as I, as I zoom out and look at what's going on in the, in the landscape of the creator economy in the next chapter of all these platforms, I believe the next chapter is more about videos than it is about creators. Whether or not people are saying that out loud. You know, it's clear that it's, it's kind of now in the best interest of platforms to prioritize videos over creators, unfortunately.

16:39Yeah. Because creators come and go, like the brand of a creator is going to come and go. Always. It's like cyclical. But we always need, or not we, platforms always need an influx of tons of video. Now, it's not that platforms don't need really positive narratives and case studies of creators who make it. And powerful creator brands. Yeah. Powerful creator brands are what drive the influx of video. But, you know, the storytelling telling of shorts, TikTok, and reels has actually created a scenario where you don't need the creator story as much. You need the story of blowing up on TikTok. You need the story of getting a million views.

17:22You need the story of the reels bonus you got. You know, there's other stories that also incentivize video creation. And I think at the end of the day, no fault of theirs, but number one is video creation. You know, like more high quality video creation creates more time spent with audience. Of course, great creator brands make, you know, deep communities and sticky audiences. But I do think that that future of AI puts into question where we stand on the priority list. If AI ends up making better videos than us, you know, if people can make that with AI, then. yeah, I don't know. I don't know.

18:03I'd be interested to be in these conversations. High level, if you have a better understanding of unions or creators.org or what you think could be possible here, we'd love to hear it. And then again, we are working on getting someone from that team on the show to ask them these questions directly and have them explain to us the value proposition of creators.org. This episode is brought to you by LifeLock. When you visit the doctor, you probably hand over your insurance, your ID, and contact details. It's just one of the many places that has your personal info. And if any of them accidentally expose it, you could be at risk for identity theft.

18:41LifeLock monitors millions of data points a second. If you become a victim, they'll fix it, guaranteed, or your money back. Save up to 40 % your first year at lifelock.com slash podcast. Terms apply. All right, let's get some questions, huh? Let's hit it. By the way, this was something that was shared around our Slack, but 90-year-old starting a YouTube channel, just an incredibly sweet story. Incredibly sweet. A lot of tears, I think, from our company, people watching and kind of tearing up. Yeah. Because, you know, her video, which we can, you know, share in the description. Yeah. It's just so sweet, and it's a message about, like, remaining creative.

19:23I love it. And getting the most out of your golden years, you know, out of your time on earth and very motivating. Super cool. So the channel is called Gallery 22 Martinsville VA. Keep an eye out. Creator on the rise. So good that that's what it's called. Here's the description. Nearing 90, Aline would like to share her experience and encourage other people to try something new no matter what their age. Having started at 73, she can attest that it is never too late and exploring the world of art in glass can be a rewarding adventure for your golden years. This channel is dedicated to fused glass art, stained glass, a dog named Bella, and remembrances.

20:07Shout out. So good. So good. Okay, speaking of starting YouTube late, we got a question that says, I'm a new creator and I'm also 36. what advice do you have for those starting their creator journey later in life? First thing I'll say is I think you're in a really good spot because if you're 36 and you haven't been a creator up to this point, you have clearly found a way to monetize outside of being a creator. You don't need it to fulfill your needs, which I think is very important. When we were younger, we did not really take that advice. We tried to put everything on this career and the career is a bit of a roller coaster and there's a lot of unknowns and experimenting that you have to go through.

20:51So I think it's better to have the financial side figured out. And also, it's a bit of a discovery of identity. And I think if you're a younger person, it's very easy for the cues that come from the algorithm, from viewership, subscribers, comments, to impact your identity of who you think you are, who you think you should be. And I think 36, at this point, if you have not been a creator, is another example where you're hopefully at this point a little more confident and understanding of what your identity is and who you are. So that's the second thing. And then third, you know, there are roadmaps of people who've started around your age.

21:31Obviously, Casey Neistat was creating for a long time, but Samir and I always bring up the fact that he did not start daily vlogging until he was 34. And we bring that up because we are both 34 and it feels like it's time that we daily vlog at this point and, and commit the next 850 days to that. Nope. Um, but it is motivating. It's very motivating. Anything is possible. Yeah. I remember watching that, that first video of Casey's and he like writes on his hand that it's his 34th birthday, you know, like his like classic Casey, like the like text on screen is like written in Sharpie on his hand.

22:07Um, and I was like 25 at the time and I was like, damn, I have like a decade before I have to really blow up on YouTube. I remember thinking, damn, I'm going to blow up way ahead of him. That's true. And then here I am at 34. Here we are at 34. Still trying. The other thing is I would like to share a summary of a post I made on LinkedIn. Oh, here it is. It's been a while. It's been a while. I'm back. That's all I got to say. Where did you go? What do you mean, where did I go? I didn't post as much over the past couple of months, but I got this new thing. I actually wasn't going to say this publicly, but here I am.

22:49Oh no. I'm a guy who says a lot of things publicly. Okay. I sat down with a cup of coffee on Sunday morning and just decided whatever I write, I'm going to share. Okay. And you know me, I didn't proofread. I don't check my grammar. Yeah. I got misspelled words. That's just who I am. Press publish, man. That's right. Right. So ironically, my first post was about practicing in private. And I reflected on because my wife made me organize all my camera stuff in my house. And one of the cameras I have is my VHS camera. And I was looking at it and it's my parents' Panasonic Omni movie. How messy was your camera stuff?

23:29It was everywhere. It was just everywhere. And she went to the container store and bought a box and was like, this is camera box. Any camera thing needs to go in this box. I got all kinds of cameras. I got a Super 8 camera. I got a VHS camera. I got film cameras. I got disposable cameras. I got all kinds of cameras in there. It sounds to me like the cameras maybe weren't that much of a problem, but the excitement of going to the container store meant let's organize. Yeah, yeah. Not for me. At least in my household. Like, I think that's what it's more about. For me, I'm like, yeah, sure. My Super 8 is in the laundry room.

24:01whatever. I'll go grab it when I need it. You know? So, okay. Anyhow. Sorry. Sorry to derail you there. So this is the, this is from our life through our lenses video, which by the way, is one of my favorite videos we've ever made. So Samir is showing me a screenshot of his LinkedIn post. Yeah. Which, no, he's showing me his LinkedIn post, which has a screenshot of his VHS camera. Of my parents' VHS camera, the Panasonic VHS Omnimovie. Now there was an incredible amount of friction to this camera. You literally had to load in a tape. There's a button on the side of this camera, you click it, opens, you load in a VHS tape and you shoot directly into camera and it shoots onto the tape.

24:40The only way to edit is we have this fade to black button and we would fade to black at the end of a scene, hold that button down at the start of the next scene and it would fade in into a new scene. And that's what taught us how to, what that effect was like, a fade out. Then we started to learn about a jump cut because we would film and then go, what if we didn't press that button? And we just started to learn. And what we would do is we would, after we were done, we would just pop the VHS tape in to the tape player and sit and watch it. And my brother and I would watch it together. And we would be like, oh, cool.

25:10What if we did it like this next time? What if we did it like this? And what happened was over time in my life, I really fell in love with the process of making a video and watching it back. And I think what's happening today for you at 36 years old and saying, I want to become a creator, I think there is a lot wrapped up in the outcome of sharing your work. And there's less emphasis on just making the work. And I think that those two things have become so incredibly intertwined, making and sharing. But I think the first thing I would suggest is develop a relationship with the process of making.

25:47So at 36, spend the next 90 days just making stuff and watching it back yourself. There is an incredible pressure of putting yourself out there that I felt when we first started, every video we uploaded, I felt like it was drenched in stakes, you know, of just like if 4 ,000 people watch this, it's a failure. So that now means what we just made is not a success. The outcome of it just influenced that it's a failure. And on the inverse, one thing that I think we should talk about more in our career is that we would just sit and record podcasts for years not knowing how many people were listening because we enjoyed sitting and talking to each other for like an hour about things.

26:31I mean, on top of that, I think back to when I first started, before I even knew you, I did not think almost at all really about distribution. Like I did not care that much. I was just enjoying making these things I wanted these videos to exist that I was making and so when you reached out to me for the first time and you were like hey what if you put your videos on my YouTube channel because I have some I'm building distribution it was like oh okay like it was actually the distribution of who was going to see it how they were going to react how many views it was going to get was not even part of the equation I was like what song am I picking I was like involved in so many other things that I was excited about.