The Man Behind the Sidemen's $100M Empire

34:04Yeah. I mean, that, that you can build so much off of that and to do that consistently. Yeah, yeah. Like to, to really unlock this format that every Sunday there's going to be this massive production, right? Like, and I, I think Vic mentioned it in the Mr. Beast podcast they did, but like when they collaborated with Jimmy, it was like a half million dollar budget. Yeah. Like those are not small budgets to handle and they have stakes and they have implications and there's tens of millions of people watching. Like she's one of the largest entertainment producers in the world, right? In the world, yeah.

34:42Which is kind of crazy. And that team unlock is crazy. Paired with the art director. Like those two things of having Tanya as like the head of production producer and an art director. Yeah. You look at Sideman Sunday, the trajectory of the look of it, the feel of it, where it's taken their brand. It's like really transcended YouTube to this other place of like, it's not fully traditional media, but it looks. Yeah. I mean, I'll be honest. It has more premium than a lot of traditional media, and yet it's still digital. I'll be honest. I haven't watched all Sidemen Sundays, but I'm very aware when the posters drop.

35:16Oh, yeah. Because the posters, I'm like a fan of the posters. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because they look so professional. and to treat our world it was one of the first times that i was like oh these guys are treating our world with the same respect that netflix treats one of their drops right if they're if they're launching a show and we as creators we have to do it ourself no one's going to do it for us there's no you know firm that's marketing our own content so if we don't treat our own work like it's the same as hollywood then who's going to treat it like that right yeah i mean i'm a i'm a big believer in making things feel really big right and giving moments to to any launch or any anything that you've put any time or energy into creatively deserves a level of respect in terms of the way that you market these things and i think you know so often you can do drops of stuff and that's it and it can get caught but actually when you build a real plan around these things like we have an incredible team like i mean you can get into the team if you guys want to talk about that but the best team on everything that we're doing now victor is the md of arcade media Now he started off as the head of side plus then moved to the head of content role.

36:19So looking after the whole content operation for the sidemen. And he is one of one unbelievable came from fanatic. Um, and he took a leap. He was like left his job at fanatics come in, basically run side plus, um, and try and make that work within, I think five or six weeks. And he did an incredible job. We can get into that later, but he's now built this incredible team of people created from around the world, right. who are exceptional at delivering for this space in a way that is of such a caliber. And I think the interesting thing is most of our creators are like 19, 20 years old. Like Oscar, who makes the posters, he's 20 years old.

36:54He's from Denmark, right? He started working with Victor when he was at Fnatic. Now he's making the posters, which are for the biggest - Scandinavians have really good design taste. They have great taste and great talent. So a lot of our team are actually from Scandinavia because they are like the best. But also weirdly, they're the highest density of Sidemen fans in the world. Oh, that's interesting. So Norway. is the country with the highest density in the world based on our data and side plus. That's another aside. Before we get, I do want to get into team, but I want to come back now to that list.

37:20So what was first on the list from the democracy of like voting? Supreme Court, yeah. Yeah, the Supreme Court of the Sidemen. The ruling. So the first on the list, I'll pull it up. I want someone to design a poster for the Supreme Court of the Sidemen because that's such a cool term. I can't show it. Only reason being it has ideas that are going to come. So, because I think some of them on there are in the works, but essentially we had number one and number two, one was alcohol. So XIX and then number two was sides. Interestingly. Wow. So alcohol and food were the top two. And did those work immediately?

37:55Yes. Like sides is a good example where it worked, but there were problems. The problems being that we underestimated naively. I think everybody did how proficient Deliveroo and Uber Eats would be in the management of such volume so Sides is ghost kitchens sorry yeah if you could just explain yeah so yeah so Sides is a ghost well started off as a ghost kitchen brand really it was a it's a fried chicken brand by the Sidemen the whole concept sprang from the idea that again the boys wanted to do a food brand they all love fried chicken it's the number one food in the world for a reason um and they wanted to make an amazing product and a brand that really worked we were lucky enough to find partners with german donna kebab's top co company called hero brands who've been brilliant and we made sides with them we're actually gonna i don't know if anyone knows we were literally about to do it ourselves in a tight we were very close i had the docu sign for a single ghost kitchen unit in voxel which would have been the biggest disaster of all time knowing what we know now and very very providentially we had that DocuSign ready to go for the lease.

39:08And then we ended up meeting the team behind German Donner Kebab, who are Hero Brands, and they said, look, we're really interested in this space. Obviously, we want to do something. We've got an amazing amount of expertise. So we said, well, yeah, why would we not want to? You guys are experts in food. You know exactly what you're doing. You built GDK to the fastest-growing food brand in the country. We'd be so silly to think that we could do it on our own. And now, having worked with partners and done a number of these things, I look back and just go, that would have been so dumb if we'd actually done that.

39:35And I'm so grateful that we did it. And they came in just at the right time. We launched it in nine ghost kitchens, only in London. The Sidemen fan base, obviously global. Huge UK audience as well. People around the country. Not everything is London. I think one thing is a lot of things are very London focused when the majority of people are not in London. And so you put a real pressure on these nine sites. So we have people coming down from parts of the country to stay at the train station, to sit in a bench, to order sides. you're people getting hotels coming from all parts of like the country probably the world to order sides the day it came out and to try it so imagine the pressure on delivery and uber eats and it was similar to the conversation that you had with reed he said the same thing i was like yes like pain i feel your pain bro because we had no chicken in a lot of our sites we had no drivers because it's not our drivers it's delivery we had people waiting four hours i remember ordering from my flat at the time and we were waiting for i was waiting for three hours for the order to come through so we're just like oh my like probably the worst brand experience you can imagine how were the guys during that time stress we were all stressed because we were just like what is going on like this is you know we've got we've got the kitchens we've got the product but but because of the infrastructure in relation to their scale it was just underestimated by everybody and how do you do that on ghost kitchens which is how we pivoted now we can get into that it was really interesting so because of that we then you know had to really work out right how do we start like nailing this customer experience people never have that again obviously we're in control of a certain amount but we can't be in control of delivery yeah you could have bigger units you could have you know more chefs but that's also tough because reef and their operation is around sort of small ghost kitchen units in different parts of the in different parts of the country different parts of london so i'd say that the first year of sides was really ghost kitchen focus we had i think a great product that was inconsistent in its delivery across various parts of the country, various parts of London and the UAE as well, where we had kitchens.

41:30Ghost kitchen delivered food is never that great, is the learning. You're never going to get it to be good. It's, I think from any restaurant, and we found that with sides very quickly that, you know, the quality and the consistency and the way we could control the output was basically hindered by the model itself. So we had to pivot. And thankfully we launched Box Park Wembley, which changed everything for us. So Box Park Wembley was our first physical unit, our first dine-in, right? And we opened that in Wembley Box Park, which is like, I don't know, it'd be hard to explain to people in the States, maybe.

42:04I don't know. It's like a bunch of - Isn't it near like Wembley Stadium? Near Wembley Stadium. It's a bunch of shipping containers that are - It's a shipping container. It's a cool place to eat. Yeah, it's a food court. It's a shipping container-based food court. So we opened a unit there. And the day we launched, like literally everything changed for the brand because people had a reference point. They had a gold star. Dine-in food could be fresh. It's hot. it's the best it can possibly be so people traveled from around the country people travel from around the world to wembley they still do but they had the gold standard of no this is what sides are supposed to be so is there only one restaurant now no so we have we cut down a lot of our ghost kitchens so if anyone actually can't get sides on um on delivery on delivery new breeds we've got some but we cut down any that weren't performing well we got we got ruthless to the point where if something wasn't a 10 out of 10 it'd be cut if there was a packaging mistake it'd be cut we were very diligent on that so that we were controlling our operators so that they weren't putting out food that wasn't great because ultimately their incentivization what they cared about was scale not the quality of the product which is why we've pivoted away from ghost kitchens and moved very very firmly into brick and mortar now so we've got wembley box park gravity and wandsworth we have um a number coming that i can't talk about just yet but we have 10 ready by the end of this year hopefully uh if all goes to plan property is tricky but they're all going well we've got a number being fitted out now across high streets across shopping centers it's going to be really cool and the aim we've got just lastly i'll say we have a master franchise agreement with a company called quiz who are taking 200 stores within the next 10 years so they've committed to that 100 stores over the next five oh um and yeah it's going to be a completely different business we see from wembley we see from gravity we know what this brand can do in physical it just needs the distribution now so obviously that that's pretty incredible to be going to that many locations.

43:48I'm curious for you, seeing that Sides and Vodka were the first ventures that you launched, did you feel that there was increased pressure and extra worry even for your role and your relationship with the guys when you launched Sides and it's somewhat of a disaster? Yeah. I mean, I think we... I remember that night was like stress. We were all, the boys, us, because they'd never done anything like this. We'd never done anything like this. We're obviously working with our partner who we found, we believe in them. We've come together as a group to try and make this work. And because ultimately of the model itself and the, and the huge scale of the audience, it just didn't work as we wanted to.

44:28We had so many fans who were right and be like, oh, I tried to get it, but I couldn't get it, et cetera, et cetera. And I think for us in terms of relationship, it was a great, it was a good and a bad thing. I mean, all of it, I think worked out brilliantly well, but it definitely did do was it tested all of us. We never really had that kind of test. We'd launched SitePlus, brilliant success had gone really well. The business was, was, was great. We were able to invest in more of a team, build more shows. And that was rolling. It was good. This one was great in potential and what we knew it could be.

44:54But again, the model just didn't allow for it to come through as a business. So that's why we ended up pivoting. It's also unfamiliarity, right? Like content is, you're familiar. Yeah. If it's make content, sell ads or make content, sell subscriptions. You can be world class in that. Yeah. You can figure that out when you're launching a restaurant. That's like a whole new ballgame. I also think that's like, it sounds expensive and relatively low margin, right? Yeah. Well, so again, the best thing, and this is a big piece of advice for any creator who's looking to build these things, don't do it on your own.

45:25Yeah. Never. Don't capitalize them unless you have to. People will be willing out, the people who are experts in the things you want to do will have the capital and will be willing to invest if you have the distribution and the great concept. I think if people aren't willing to put the capital behind it, you might not have a thing. It might not be the right time for you to do it. Right. And then it's a good market test. It actually is just an opportunity. Yeah. So Hero, big business, huge growth of that year. They had cash to invest in things. And so they were willing to cash flow the business and bring it up to speed.

45:56I'm very grateful for them to be able to, for them putting their money where their mouth is, so to speak, and really believing in the idea and the concept for Sides. And for vodka, we do both brands with them. And they do the vodka brand too. Yeah, so we do the vodka brand with them as well. They have a wholesaler called United Wholesale. and yeah they they've been great like they've you cannot fault their belief in these brands to basically invest in them and help get them up to up to speed because these things are expensive but not just expense it's the resource and the expertise you need to do them probably more so than the cost it's like you actually need to know how to get like everything done in a way that is at this level because if it's not at that level and thankfully we were able to get there in terms of product in terms of branding packaging you know all the regulations around food all the regulations around alcohol, bonding when it comes to vodka, all these things.

46:43There's so many details that you don't know. So forever grateful for them for being such good partners and actually helping us to bring these two ideas to life in a way that, you know, has been challenging at times, but it's been incredibly fun. And actually we've all learned so much. And the main thing is when people get the product for both brands, they love it. And the feedback on the actual product itself is undeniably brilliant. And that's what the one thing where we go, okay, cool. We now just need to scale the distribution. We need sides everywhere. People, my theory is this, like personally, same with Jimmy and the Mr.

47:13Beast brand. Because people know the Sidemen everywhere, the awareness is so high. Why would they go to Slim Chickens or Wingstop or KFC when they have a product made by their favorite creator or backed by their favorite creator? Why would they? If they can see, if the price is comparable, let's say, and they're in the same tier and the product is better over here and the value is better in our brand, because they have an affinity and the love for the side men they'll go to sides that's the theory and i believe that's true because they have a warmth they've built that it's that connection it's the standing in the stadium seeing that reaction how do you emulate that reaction for value adding products that are great how do you how do you emulate that reaction for the best fried chicken brand that we could possibly make or the best vodka product that we could possibly make and i think that's the key when you sort of take that connection apply it to a really great product and an amazing brand that can stand on its own two feet i think that's when you have traction and that's what we're seeing i'll never forget the day the box part launched and we had a queue they had to close off the club next to our unit and we had a whole queuing system trailing around all the way outside of the building you know hundreds of people coming down huge amount of hype and noise for it um because people love the sidemen and that's the that's the equity that they've built for the last 10 years which is why this is so much fun to do because we get to provide these loyal incredible people from around the country with amazing value-adding products backed by, provided by, made by their favorite creators.

48:37If we were to go to the next charity match, would we be able to eat sides at the Sidemen charity match? We're working on it. We're working on it. That to me is like the full, you know, in the Disney World, Disney map sense of we're providing the entertainment. You're also eating the food. Yeah. It's all working with itself. The characters are there. The Mickey Mouse is there, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just like they're all there. I get to eat the food. I get to drink the vodka. I get to watch the exclusive BTS on Side Plus. I bought the trading cards. I get the trading cards. Yeah, it's a whole universe.

49:10It's like the Marvel universe that you're building out. Exactly, exactly. So Side Plus, it sounds like that launched before Side. September 2021. Yeah, so that makes sense, right? When you zoom out, okay, creators are making content. They're making AdSense, brand deals, merchandise if they're as big as the Sidemen. Yeah. And then Patreon membership, you know, basically paid subscription content. And at the scale of the Sidemen, you know, first of all, they're producing so much content. As creators, it feels overwhelming to be like, make more. How did you go about launching Side Plus? And can you explain the concept why you didn't go with Patreon or something like that?

49:53Why you built it yourself? Yeah, for sure. So again, it writes itself, right? You have world-class creators who make content that people love. How can you create a system that allows them to do more of that content commercially by making it so that it can fund itself and grow into its own entity and business, providing a huge amount of value to the fans who want more and are willing to support the Sidemen. They've been producing free content for their whole careers. Everyone does on YouTube, not free ad, obviously ad funded essentially. But producing content for free in terms of the fan paying, how do you create a relationship that is more of a supporting system like a patreon how do you do that for the Simon that was always the the immediate logical step how can we make the content that we wanted to make that would be value adding would be great but also protect our lives how we did that was a podcast first and foremost studio environment manageable you can manage a studio you're not traveling around yeah yeah so start with a studio so we we got a studio in East London and we were able to kit it out with our sidecar set and within that set the idea was to have two or three different shows from sidecar so you could interchange the set at the beginning we then had a BTS so Johnny who if you're on Instagram you might see is Johnny BTS he is the cameraman who basically follows and documents and creates these beautiful BTS documentaries on side plus they can be two three hours long they can be long um and people want i watched the farm one last night yeah the strangest thing to me was to log on to side plus and it looks like netflix from a design perspective there's a trending tab on side plus yeah and i was like so this is content that's trending inside of this membership community like yeah yeah yeah and the comments it's wild forum like the community there is real and i think people wanted i think the there were there was a section of the fan base that wanted to a they wanted more but they wanted that connection with the community on a on a more intimate level i think when you're on youtube right you have a subscriber base it's hard to really feel connected to each other as having that shared experience of being fans of the sidemen watching their content every day or every week i think some people really wanted more and so yes you can have a discord and platforms like that which we do but for the boys again it needs to be big it needs to be at a level which which provides enough value to the fans really intriguing so that's why side plus came about it's returnable and it's a format that works so that was the starting point it was sidecast bts we had giveaways we had ask the sidemen and then we also had the eating greet where we had fans come down and then actually eat with the guys had sides together i think in the first one and we did one actually recently on the weekend um so opportunities for closer connection essentially um and yeah and then we expanded from that to a 1000 square foot studio pretty quickly obviously victor being in that position he knew what it was like to set up from nothing he was then able to really expand it going from one small little 500 square foot three no 200 200 square foot 300 square foot unit to a thousand plus square foot with three sets and now it's got three sets it's got more side men on the corner where the where the boys film it's got you know i think a two of the sets are transferable um cameras everywhere it's just all kitted up so they can walk in show show show show leave and it automates everything is there a head of side plus and was that person put in place before you Victor Victor so Victor started off as a head of side plus before it launched yes just to do programming we put him in about five weeks before and he's facilitated like the growth and the decisions to move to the next studio and right so he's like the MD he was like the MD of side plus essentially so imagine so he was his role was to come in make it happen build it grow it and then expand it from there and that was and he did it amazingly well and was he incentivized as well by the growth of side plus yeah so on our side of things so we kind of brought him in as as you know on our side um as part of arcade essentially as he still still is he's director of arcade because we wanted him to be part of that journey of building for them rather than it being a slightly different relationship and so he was fully aligned he was then you know he left his job to come and do this coming on a decent salary but you know with the upside that actually this could be transformation if this really kicks on so he was aligned and again big principle for us is alignment like how do you really align people on for the long time when people are like like him and you're a small business and you need to start and this is i think a thing for creators to really bear in mind like you have power to distribute equity and revenue shares and salary to use those levers as tools to bring people on the journey so that they work 10 times harder 20 times harder, 30 times harder for me.

54:31When people are super protective and they want to keep everything, they don't go that far. I think the people that really go far in this space and in the traditional space are the ones who are the most open to sharing. And I always say, if you're willing to do 50 % of the work, you should have 50 % of the business. You shouldn't be saying, well, I need 95 % or I need 100 % and you're going to work on a salary for me, but I'm expecting you to do everything. And it's, I mean, that just works personally for me, not for everybody, but I think that kind of a mindset of how do we align people long-term is really key.

55:00So Victor was part of that where he felt like, no, look, I'm going on this journey with this. This isn't just a salary job for me. And I think that's really important. Does Side Plus work immediately? Like we're fans flocking to pay? Because it's about$10 a month US, right? Six or seven pounds a month. Yeah. So that's like a Netflix subscription, right? Like I'm paying double. Like I pay for Netflix. Now I pay for Side Plus. Yeah. like that's like the Sidemen's own version of Netflix. And it has a ton of content on it. But we're fans immediately receptive to that. They were. Yeah, they were. And we worked really hard.

55:36Like I think in the UK, it's a lot harder to get pricing right than in the US, right? Because smaller market, naturally more cynical as a culture towards commercialization, et cetera. But we really wrestled with like, how do we provide so much value that no one can ever question the value of this? Got it. took ages wrestling that price point, wrestling the amount of content, what content do we launch with? What content do we then follow up with? How do we provide enough? Because if you don't provide enough, then you'll immediately, people see through it. And I think people nowadays are very wise to this kind of stuff.

56:10They can understand if something's value, if value fair or if it's not. And that's why we stressed about it to a real degree so that we could provide maximum value for a good price for people. And I think we were able to get there in the end. So how significant is the revenue from Side Plus? Like where does it stack up now in the Sidemen world of obviously where they get their revenue from? Yeah. I mean, it's up there. It's up there, like high up there now. And I think that's, yeah, it's allowed them more than anything to have a bigger studio, to hire more people. We hire a lot of people for Side Plus now, a ton of people, but a good amount to, again, bake in as much value as we possibly can.

56:48So yes, these things make money, but actually the benefit of creating a great engine like this, that's commercial and that provides value, is that you can then bring that back in. And then we can upgrade the studio. We can have more producers. We have a new head of Side Plus called Joe, who's incredible, who came over from Foot Asylum. We have a producer on the show. We have runners. We have a whole team around it now. That wouldn't be possible unless you had that commercial. How much viewership do the Sidemen do on a monthly basis across all channels? so it's about 244 million and that's on long form content yeah excluding the shorts exclude no that's two shorts and exclusive i plus okay so if we look at that like typically i think a conversion to a membership is like let's say five percent for creators because it's pretty sticky yeah even if the average is 10 million views of video that's an insane amount of subscribers i I know you're not going to tell me how many members you have, but I'm thinking in my head at$10 a month with the scale of audience they have, that has to be one of the highest margin products that you can think.

57:54Yeah. I mean, I think for creators out there, digital products are just, they're just the one. I mean, like for us, we're in a position where it's not just about that. It's about brand building. That's why Sides is so good because you get the distribution, right? You're on every high street. That's a touch point that wouldn't be there. And when people think that Sides makes a lot of money, I mean like it makes money but for the side men like for anyone involved in the business no this is about building brand anyone who knows the food business knows how hard the food business is let alone with seven creators and three founders like you're splitting it so many different ways right right right I'm curious about you talked about like one of your principles is getting everyone aligned with seven guys and three of you, you know, how does, how do they still remain, you know, aligned and together?

58:44And, um, you know, there's, there's so many different dynamics there with the group. Like how, how does it all work? I guess. Well, I think they have the best system internally between them because they're seven real friends who've become, you know, have kind of fallen into working with each other in a really commercial way now in a corporate way, right? They have a team around them, they have staff, they have a HR person, they have all sorts. I think they've built their processes and we've fallen into that really nicely because they've got their own house in order. And I think we were talking about this before, when creators work with management, they need to know, management need to know the brief and you need to work your manager, manage your manager by giving them clarity around expectation, around your own structure, your own process, what you expect.

59:28And I think they were always very clear, like they work as the board. We basically report into that board as management, but they make the final call on everything. We are never there to say, do this, do that, go here, go here, without them deciding and agreeing through the Supreme Court that it's a 4-3 majority at least. And then yes, they'll do it, but they all have to be aligned. And that's why I think actually working with seven people in a group like this is in a way easier than working with, you know, one client, because actually one person might sometimes be more emotionally driven. They might sometimes be more rational.

1:00:01They might sometimes have more going on in their personal lives that they can't share the load like the sidemen can. They can share the load with each other. So it means that there's almost a healthier detachment individually, which allows for better outcomes because everyone's about what's best for the group. And everyone's also about what the majority decides rather than being individual. But I would imagine, I would struggle as one of the sidemen watching KSI and his career trajectory. Even when I think about some of the opportunities he gets, you know, specifically with Prime, you know, my question would be like, is that not something you want to bring to the sidemen?

1:00:36Is that not something we could amplify even more as a collective and as a group? Or why is that an opportunity for you and not an opportunity for us and what is that dynamic yeah you know even even for you as as you know a leader in the group like how do you deal with one specific member you know breaking out like that well i think jj is you know an incredible talent like in so many different ways and an incredible person probably one of the nice people i've ever met i think most people can testify to how humble and kind and generous he is to everybody he's great in so many ways and i think his success is a testament to all of the extra work that he's been able to put in, in the verticals that he has for a number of years, separately, alongside everything else.

1:01:20I think it's hard for anyone to look at that and say that that isn't necessarily deserved, or that isn't warranted based on what he's put in. I think it's a perfect outcome for that, and he deserves all of that success. It's incredible to watch. And what's amazing for all of us is we get to learn from somebody now operating at a global level, especially through Prime, where the business has just gone through the roof, as know and it's been unbelievable to watch that from when it first came out to now and to see how him and the team his team over there mams and and the rest of the rest of his crew have been able to to sort of manage that uh at such scale and to do it so like inspirationally i think i think it's incredibly inspirational so i look at it fully and i can't speak for anybody else but i personally look at it and see his success as being like a blueprint for how you can really hit mainstream in a different way in new sectors that we've never tried before we're not in those worlds We're not in sport.

1:02:11We're not in hydration drinks per se. But the fact that he's led the way on those things, it's opened doors for everything else that we're trying to do. It makes conversations with franchise partners way easier on sides. It makes conversations with retailers way easier on vodka. And actually, if it wasn't for that, we would be the ones leading the way in those conversations. But they've opened the door through the US and through that global scale of the business to conversations that we wouldn't be having. So I'm incredibly grateful. I can't speak for any of the guys, obviously, and for anyone else.

1:02:40But for me, I see it as a huge beacon of inspiration that helps us to achieve everything we want to do. Yeah, I mean, the bigger his profile gets, in a way, the better for the group, as long as the group is still together. It's only in the one directions of the world where Harry Styles and Zayn, they break up. Then it's like, all right, once it's broken up, they're on their own. And exactly. And, you know, he was there in the studio yesterday. He does all of his commitments. He is very committed to the Sidemen. He believes in it, clearly, and he loves it, right? They all love being around each other and doing what they do.

1:03:09They enjoy nothing more. At the end of the day, we can do sides, we can do vocal, we can do anything. They're making content. That's the bit that gets them out of bed is making fun videos and doing great things together. I think it's a real testament that they're still together. Like seven people. And maybe it does help that it's seven and not three because three might be more likely to break up. The pressures of like the seven person dynamic. If one person's upset or something, there's so many people to confide in and talk to. Yeah. But obviously it does change their relationship. The longer it goes, the more businesses you launch.

1:03:41Was it Ethan who said, were more colleagues than friends? Yeah. Right. And people were kind of up in arms about that. He got heat from that. He got a lot of heat from that. I think unnecessary. I get the point he was trying to make, which is that this friendship group has become...

1:04:24basically a business relationship something with someone. I understood what he was saying. Like it must change the relationship. Of course it does. It doesn't mean you don't enjoy being around each other. If we started as friends, it'd be hard. Our context is just like, we enjoy spending time together working and building. Yeah. And I think for them, it's, they did start as friends, but have become, and this is what the point he was trying to get at is they become colleagues insofar as the business has become dominant in their lives and the relationship they have with each other is entirely within a business context because everything they do together is for their wider sidemen business.

1:04:58Which is just the point, although he got grilled for it. I want to ask you about when you know a business doesn't work because I feel like you guys are one of those groups in the creator world, the sidemen, where it seems like they're always making headlines, always launching. We have sidemen ping pong in our office. Tabletop ping pong. Yeah, we play. It's great. I also, you know, you hear about the Sidemen Hotel. How do you guys kind of evaluate a new venture? Yeah, it's a good question. I think we evaluate ventures based on, firstly, that spreadsheet. That's actually our first reference point.

1:05:36Do they believe in it? Yeah, yeah. So good. And actually, there's a number of ideas. There's like 15 things on there, right? That could all be doable. But do they really believe in it? It's number one. So did it rank highly? If it's a new idea, then, you know, taking it to them and saying, guys like you know do you believe in this we think this could work and there are some of those and some of the things that are coming and then i think it's saying right is this a market or an area that can be disrupted with you know the pairing of their distribution with the right partner and the right expertise that can really help this take off so i think it's it's bringing that alignment together it's us saying we're not doing this ever on our own like we're never here to try and run a hotel we're never here to try and run a fried chicken i have no idea how to run a fried chicken restaurant, I now have a little bit of insight.

1:06:19But it is hard and you need to be an expert in terms of doing that. We have Gordon, who's our head of food, formerly at M &S and Costa. Basically, he's an exceptionally talented cook, Gordie McDermott. And he came from Costa Coffee and M &S and all these amazing businesses. We have Dec who, you know, ran Ghost Kitchens for Deliveroo, literally. He's one of our chefs. Robin, who is our CEO, who has been pivotal to GDK. So you have experts around you. So I think without the partnership, it's not even a conversation. So the first step I actually think is bring the partner in. If we, you know, I'm out there obviously doing a lot of talks, meeting people, networking, you meet people and they go, wow, I've got this infrastructure.

1:06:57I've got this business. We could do something amazing together. And then you say, okay, cool. Does it tick with one of these things on, on our strategy? Is it part of our kind of vision? If you will, that we set out to do two years ago. And if it is then actually like hotels was and it's actually, is there a coming together for that? And then if there is, then you say, right, this is. this is a goer. And I think you have to pair that, of course, with the audience. But I think my fundamental thing is most categories are ripe for disruption from the creator space. There's really, I think, an open field for anyone who can bring the distribution with a great brand, great marketing together and a great product together.

1:07:32It's easier said than done. But I don't overly fear the territory so much or the sector. It's more our ability to make something that's amazing within it, even if it's entirely random or seems entirely random. Especially at the scale that you guys have. because that's different for other creators who are maybe more niche, like us, right? We're not launching a hotel. Could we launch maybe an Airbnb that's like a creator retreat? Maybe. That I think could do. We also have to be careful about how many things we launch. We only have so much bandwidth and we only have so much messaging power from a brand perspective.

1:08:04And when I look at the Sidemen, I wonder how much messaging power, how much bandwidth do you actually have to launch a number of things? Do you think about that of, oh, we don't want to launch too many things or this is the right amount. Yeah, I mean, I think for me, I don't know if this is shared by others, I can only speak for myself, but I almost look at the entrepreneurial journey as the entertainment. So I see it as content, weirdly. So launching sides is content in itself. Launching vodka is content. Launching, doing the charity match, doing Christmas drillings, that was all content. So I almost see it as principally from a marketing perspective about the entertainment side of things.

1:08:39How do you make the brands fun? How do you make them, you know, have their own identities, have their own personality, their tone of voice, but how do you make it another engine of content that can live in its own world? Because if you can make it entertaining and you can make it fun and engaging and you build a community around it, then I think as long as the product is great, people don't mind. I think people aren't looking and saying, oh, they've done too much as long as they're making amazing things that are value adding and are working at a great level. If the products suck and you're charging money for them, people will hate you forever and you'll lose the respect.

1:09:10Respect comes from integrity and you have integrity by making a great product and by trying to provide value to fans without ripping them off ultimately. And that's the balance that's hard to strike. How protected are you though from YouTube as a platform when easily you could think, okay, these are businesses built off the back of YouTube. Yeah. And anything can happen to YouTube, especially when it comes to viewership. Is that a concern for you guys? JJ said on one of the podcasts, and he said it repeatedly, if the main channel goes then everything else loses its relevance i'm not sure if i believe that to its entirety but i think the root of what he's getting at is there which is that they all see themselves as youtubers principally so youtube is still very important like more important than anything else everything else is just added value on top it's icing on the cake if the content operation isn't working at its best if they are not excited about the content they're making, if they're not happy and filming great videos, then everything else will naturally take some kind of a hit.

1:10:13However, where I slightly different viewpoint with that is if we're building seeds and we're creating distribution at scale because of the affinity to the brand that is generational, they've connected for 10 years. And if we get that right, then they're protected essentially because you don't know what's going to happen to YouTube. No one knows. And they're side plus. And that's why side plus is so, and this is also from a management perspective, the big focus for us was building them the insurance plan that if YouTube falls, they have other revenue streams. They have other touch points to their audience.

1:10:41Not the YouTube will fall. It's the biggest one, the biggest companies in the world, but you never know what will happen. And actually having your whole life in the hands of another company is tricky. And every creator pretty much is dependent on YouTube success. So they also just launched a retail store, physical retail store. It feels like one of the core themes is like physical stuff, right? Of course you have the foundation of digital side plus and the channels the advertising business but you know the charity match i think you posted that it was an hour and a half and 62 000 tickets sold yeah it would have been instant if they could have sold if if the ticketing process processing sorry at ticket master was quick enough it would have been instant that's amazing that ticket master can't keep up with with that but 62 000 tickets sold is absolutely insane and then seeing the imagery this past weekend 6 000 people are standing outside of a retail store to buy side merchandise yeah yeah it's yeah it's different as i said with it's the same thing you walk out on the pitch you look around it's that same connection just in different ways forms touch points the store for sideman clothing is unreal like matt who's the ceo's the md sorry of sideman clothing is exceptional he's been he's been there since they were he was packing um t-shirts for in their Sidemen house.

1:12:00He went to school, I think, with Josh. They've known each other for years, right? He was literally started there. Now he's running this, probably one of the biggest merch operations in, well, definitely the biggest in the country, one of the biggest, I'm sure, in the world. And he's done an incredible job in Blue Water, which is a shopping center in Kent. It's a very kind of young area. There's lots of families, quite residential. And to launch there is like such a statement. They all used to go there, some of them, where they're like Matt and Josh, they used to go there after they always said like blue water is like a real thing for us it's their shopping center that they went to when they were kids and to see their own store there is unreal and i mean the launch and what that thing has done already for credibility i think nothing makes the digital real more than physical experiences or the physical manifestation of the audience it makes people wake up and go wow like you had 6 000 people at a shopping center through on saturday that is obscene in terms of numbers no one no other retailer will be able to do those kind of numbers.

1:12:56Like, it's just not happening. The amount of traffic that they brought to the shopping center, the amount of people queuing up before, I think it was 1 ,500 people in the queue at nine o 'clock in the morning. It's just like crazy. I think people at seven o 'clock were queuing outside. Like that is again, different and it's a different league. Digital was fantastic, but the physical is where you get a different level. And I think shops for Simon clothing, stores for sides, things like a hotel, they will all help to do that. Let's talk about the organization. You've talked a couple of times about team, you know and like that there's 30 plus people who work with the sidemen what what does the organization look like because it seems like with every project you've mentioned a managing director of that project and then i imagine like there's other infrastructure there like at this scale what does the sidemen team look like so we have it's i would almost split it into commercial and content.

1:13:53And then I'd say Victor pivots the two. So on content, you would have Cyplus and Sidemen Entertainment. And Cyplus and Sidemen Entertainment have a lot of people, probably the most bodies. Sidemen Entertainment, as you'd imagine, that's all the channels, let's call it that, has tons, as you'd imagine, video editors, producers, cameramen, photographers, social managers, editors, shorts editors, et cetera. They all sort of sit within Simon Entertainment. You then got SciPlus that has a sort of similar reflection of that, but on a smaller level, obviously you don't need the same scale because the volume is not as high, but you have Joe who's sort of head of that platform and head of creative and sort of driving that you have Kelvin, who's a producer and you have a number of other people around that who support on the shoots and ideation, creativity, et cetera.

1:14:39You've also got Joe Gilmore now who came in from Lab Bible, who's incredible. He's senior creative strategist. He's sort of augmenting the strategy across both of those strands in content, but also some of the commercial sort of sits, I guess, in the middle. And then you have the commercial team. So, I guess, commercial brand special projects. So within that team, you have, I'd say, charity matches, one project. You have side cards, training cards with tops, which is another project that we've now sort of taken in house in terms of all the design, all of the creativity that's all done by us. Now you have XXVodka, you have sides, and then you have, I'd say, special projects, which are things like Christmas drillings or some of the other stuff that we can't talk about this in development.

1:15:14So maybe new projects would sit there. So that's kind of the spread you have. Yeah, those sort of five lanes and then you have a split and then you have Simon Entertainment and side plus and that's kind of and then you have, you know, the more corporate side I hate you. Like we've got an amazing head of people who's called Chantel. She's great. Looks after the office looks after everybody in the team. I'm trying to think what else we have. I think that's pretty much the spread. So as I hear this, I'm curious, why is Arcade separate? Why are you not in house as like the CEO of the Sidemen? Yeah, that's good.

1:15:46I think because we always set it up like, we just set it up like that because it was the lowest risk way of doing it where we have me, Aaron and Sam have our company. That makes sense. The Sidemen have their company. It just keeps everything nice and distinct. I think it also would create challenges in terms of the splits and the dividends and that sort of stuff. It's very clean having our own entity. That's true. And I think the way I'd almost see it is, yes, we are the external brand of the business side for the Sidemen Arcade. But in reality, we're building this whole team for them. Like this is their resource and capital that's going into this team.

1:16:19It's not like we're building our company for them. We're building their company. We are basically three CEOs or maybe, you know, CFO, CCO, and a chief commercial officer, let's say of the Sidemen world. They're the board. If you see that's kind of the easiest way of saying it, you see like board up here, seven Sidemen, Arcade, me, Aaron, and Sam. Sam would be CFO Aaron would be Chief Commercial Officer I'd be Chief Creative Officer let's say and then you have Victor who's the MD of the Sidemen Operation if you will across both brands and entertainment does that make sense yeah so all those people are employed by the Sidemen not employed by our team exactly yeah got it wow that's really interesting you just kind of painted the picture of like a modern media landscape like we've worked with so many individuals so many creatives creators nothing has come close to the efficiency the scale, the creativity and the dynamism of these guys.

1:17:14I also wonder what the reality is of there being another sidemen coming and what competition looks like. Like if you actually even were looking for other opportunities. Yeah, it's a great question. I mean, my belief is that no and or not in the way that we maybe see it now. So we were talking about this, right? My personal take on the way that the space is growing. TikTok has come in and created a divide in time where there was like pre-COVID, pre-TikTok creators. I don't know, I might be wrong on this, but pre-COVID, pre-TikTok creators, and then post-COVID, post-TikTok creators or the TikTok era.

1:17:55And what that's done from my observation is it's drastically devalued content and creators because everyone's a creator now. Everyone can get reach. Everyone can get, I mean, the amount of people I speak to on Unboxed, my podcast about this stuff where I'll speak to these TikTokers and they're like yeah lockdown was big and I blew up and it was great and there are so many stories where they're able to get huge scale very quickly and brands are becoming creators now look at Ryanair look at Duolingo the amount of scale that these companies and individuals can can find on these platforms of short form and every day there seems to be someone new who's popping and they're not and this the up and down is so much quicker the depth of connection is low as I think it's ever been I don't think there's connection there between most creators and an audience anymore I also don't think there are fans anymore my personal sense is actually that because of tiktok and the way that that's changed consumption and the consumption of celebrity is just pure like you know non-stop feed of information and content i don't think people really care anymore about the individual per se it's more the content the video what's the next video what's the next video not who's this person what do they provide what's their value and i think for me that has completely changed everything to the point where there are no fans who has come through tiktok and really built a fan base who has come through in this last era now, this current era, and really built fans who would chase them down the street, who would be going to their merch store.

1:19:10Who could even launch a merch store? Who could even launch anything? I mean, there was that first crop that I would say, you know, the Charlie D 'Amelios, the little hotties, like, and that's my assumption. I actually don't know how. That's the peak. That's the peak. Yeah. And with all due respect to them, compare that to the level of the last era and the level that we were able to attain, what you guys are able to obtain, what Mr. Beast has been able to obtain, what some of the creators who've been building for that long, on YouTube especially, have been able to do beyond their platform in terms of connection and depth, who people have genuine fans.

1:19:43Yes, they may have had celebrity, but even the biggest of the biggest of the biggest, I don't think carry with them the depth of connection. And that's the job, it's like, how can they pivot? And I'm sure some of them will be doing that, but pivot into connection. Emma Chamberlain is a great example, right, of somebody who's kind of crossed both, but she's built a huge amount of connection she's got genuine fans i feel like there's almost that era and then the next one which i don't know where it will go it's my personal sense do i think that the do i think the fan connection is enough to build what we've built with the sideband and what the sideband have built on their own can you fill a stadium yeah no i think it just may take time we may be in a gap of age where there are a lot of creators who took to tiktok and are maybe working to get over to YouTube, but haven't fully.

1:20:27And then there are some young creators who are on YouTube, but it will take another five, perhaps even 10 years for them to get to a point where they do have audiences that have been with them for 10 years. I think about Dude Perfect, right? Dude Perfect just went on a tour and packed every stop of the tour. They've been in the market for how long, right? That's one of the most established entertainment brands. And I think maybe we forget sometimes because there has been such a rapid pace of like, whoa, that person shot up to 10 million subscribers or a million views. And short form content created a warped view of how much value we put on views and subscribers, right?

1:21:03Because if you can't fill a room with people - What's the point? Yeah, then it's not as sticky, right? And so I think that time and market and trust, credibility of these brands, we as creators are going to have to do things differently. Like we're thinking about a tour next year, right? Can we do physical events? you know and i think that'll be a big marker of what our business looks like and what our community looks like have we actually built a dedicated community and we have ways of knowing that answer yeah um and i'm very confident in that but that's the thing that we're working on is and we know we're still a young brand too the segment is not as young a lot of our peers and some of our friends you look at michelle caray eric jesser you know jesser in the conversation of sports youtube with dude perfect taking off right now but it may be five ten more years in the market where we look at some of these creators and we're like oh that is the dude perfect of yeah yeah i think i think that's that's a good i think it might i think it's as you guys have said and we talked about this before it's it's more about localized communities like more precise value adding to audiences big scale entertainment doesn't really drive connection anymore because there's so many people doing it.

1:22:14But what Will is actually like Max Fosh, as we said, who's amazing, you know, doing a sellout run at Edinburgh Festival, which is a comedy festival in the UK, selling out the Palladium, doing a comedy special, building out a vertical for himself in comedy. That drives connections because comedy drives immense connection for people in a way that is different. Same way, I would say with a number of creators who are, you know, Ali Abdaal is another good example, somebody who's built a really dedicated community around his ability to provide value on productivity, his courses, huge, great. They're not massive, massive, massive, but they're very dedicated.

1:22:49So for me, it's more about what would you rather have? Huge, huge, huge numbers or people who really care? Would you rather pack out, you know, a hundred people in a venue, but have a hundred thousand subs, or would you rather have a million subs, but not be able to get anyone there? I think the incentive structures for young creators are really confusing right now, right? Because it's like viewership, subscribers does equate to brand deals and AdSense revenue, right? And so the chase is after that feeling of, okay, the numbers are going up. Yeah. And sometimes you completely miss that you're not building any depth with an audience.

1:23:30And you're chasing the high numbers. Because again, the industry is set up to reward that in the advertising context, right? I wonder what you think like I know you've you've talked quite a bit about the creator middle class yeah and this kind of promise of the creator middle class and it being non-existent what's your perspective yeah on the gap between the sidemen and you know Mr. Beast and Logan and like the rest of the creator economy I did a talk on this three days ago actually and the whole thing was how can brands understand and better navigate this new time we're in where you have the top, top, top, top, top, who I call Creator Inc.

1:24:08Who, because of their ability to make a good amount of money over a long period of time, have enough cash to invest in themselves and their businesses to go to that next level. So, Mr. Beast, I think said on your show, right? No one's going to catch up. You cannot catch up with what he's doing. The levels he's spending, the returns of that investment, it's a fulfilling cycle, right? It goes up and up and up. And for me, I look at the space right now and I see Creator Inc., like what we're doing, the Sidemen. They've built an amazing business over 10 years. They can then invest that in people to come in and then scale these businesses and work with partners.

1:24:38And they're at a level which allows for them to go to that next tier. But how many people are able to make that jump? It's almost like now, because the ability to make money is, I would say, a lot lower than it is. And in the UK especially, brand deals are really tough. Like brands are now spending a lot more from what I'm seeing with what I would call the creator working class, not the middle class. They're spending more of their budget dispersed amongst a larger pool of creators. There are many companies that are influencer agencies, even some tech that are helping brands to deploy to a thousand TikTok creators, let's say that's the biggest chunk of their budget.

1:25:11And they look at that and they go, well, look, we actually went viral three times from 20 creators. We got 10 million views on that video, maybe a thousand on this one, but look, this one got half a million. It's like buying stocks. And then they go, hold on, you're asking me to pay 50K for a video on YouTube, which might get a hundred thousand views, 200 ,000 views, half a million views, whatever it might be, or 20K or 10K for a video. and I think brands look at that and they go that doesn't make sense anymore they care about reach awareness rarely do they care I think or not care but I think they care less and less actually about attachment and alignment in the influencer space I think they're more about how do we just get as much number as many numbers as we can so then we look at the future and say well if you're a creator who's used to making certain amount of money you have to chase the ad sense then which is why you then are incentivized to, as you say, build content that fits the algorithm, that hacks YouTube.

1:26:03But that doesn't drive connection, is my theory. I don't think that drives connection. But then how do you monetize in an early stage as a creator in the world? I think it's hard. I think it's really hard. And this is the bit. And this is why my skepticism around the creator economy starts to kick in a little bit. And I go, this is really difficult. How, if you're a new creator and you start off, let's say on TikTok or on YouTube, and you're trying to get your way, how do you make this a commercially viable business for yourself it's really difficult and i think you're going to see a lot more a lot more creators out there have other jobs working alongside their content as i think they already are because tiktok especially which is where the incentivization for awareness is there but it makes no money so i think a lot of people are doing both youtube is a time drain more than ever i think for people it seems because the need to compete requires resource requires time to make stuff of that level which will cut through so then where do people go and that's where i see the kind of creative middle class shrinking, the creative working class widening, and then the creator Inc.

1:26:59being right at the top, almost untouchable. And that's why I struggled to see another side, Ben. I might be completely wrong and please anyone feel free to tell me I'm being done, but that's my, I don't think you're wrong. I've, I've had a similar perspective on like the larger kind of creator class, primarily because the sheer quantity of creators that will accept a$500 or thousand dollar brand deal that is that's creating a more dispersed hundred dollars right it's it's creating more of a dispersed view of the world right of like that is that is a challenge for how our advertising business works which means the creators who are going to turn into that creator inc are the ones who have already pre-established a depth of connection where they can launch the other yeah from the area exactly so it is a very different era um i think we're going to see really unique styles of deals.

1:27:50And I also think I agree with you that the in-house creatives might change. The agency business might pick back up of like ad agencies that employ young people who know how to make good creative at lower prices. Volume deals. Yes. I do think though, it is absolutely in the best interest of the platforms of YouTube, of TikTok, of Instagram, to make sure that new creators can find depth of connection and turn it into a sustainable business yeah right i agree we like they if youtube wants to be youtube in 20 years which i know it does in 40 years like we're gonna be 40 and 50 and 60 like they truly will need young creators who are able to find depth of connection so whether it's possible right now or not yeah which that may be true because of short form platforms no matter what there is gonna have to be some way yeah well i think the pendulum swings right and now it's swinging in favor of short form, it's swinging in the favor of high censorship, people not having as much of a voice, optimization, strategy, you know, all of that side of things, very important, but it seems to dominate the conversation more than the expression, really.

1:28:59And I think it's, we're going to see a time where maybe it swings back and actually it changes again, or there's a new platform or a new iteration or something comes that disrupts. I think it's really hard. I think for creators out there who are starting, it's honestly very difficult. I think when you have though some connection, when you find a pocket of value, maybe it's just not thinking so big. You don't need to be creator Inc. Let the Coca-Colas of the world be the Coca-Colas. You can be an amazing independent brand that has a strong depth of connection with a small group. Like Ali Abdel is a great example.

1:29:28He's a great example. He's making, he published, he made a million pounds on his last course. Obscene. That's amazing. And you know, he's got a small team. He's got great infrastructure. He's created a depth of connection and value and he's making great money off of it for him to invest in other things. for himself personally. Great lifestyle business. Amazing lifestyle. I think that's the future of this. It's not Mr. Beast. It's not the Sidemen. Is there some insight? Because I feel like the past couple of years have been dominated by short form conversation or short form content. Us having a conversation around shorts, shorts, shorts, TikTok, TikTok, TikTok, short form content.

1:30:01Now, us as well as Sidemen and a few other brands have pushed into extremely long form content. Our episodes are pushing into the hour and a half, two hour range. And our watch time is going up. People are watching this long of content. Sidemen Sunday, you know, two plus hours is wild on YouTube. In a world where short form content is what everyone's talking about, my perspective is that long form content is the test of depth. 100%. And it's the way to build depth. 100%. The challenge is just because you have a voice on short form and just because you have relevance there, as we know because we see you see it everyone sees the conversion is none they're very few i can't think of any there must be some out there please like something like if there's anybody in the comments or whatever who can tell me some who've successfully converted from tiktok to youtube because i don't really know of any really who've done it well done it at a great level and maybe that's because of everything i've been saying around the lack of fans do they really have fans who travel with them i think a lot of people i see on tiktok they might have a million followers 2 million followers, they try on YouTube and they're getting 5k subs, 2k subs, 1k subs.

1:31:11Literally, there's hardly any crossover at all. And it's probably a weird emotional feeling of, I have a couple million over here and YouTube's a really long journey. You start a YouTube channel, that's a long journey. That's not like an overnight thing. And you can't get there through, I think that the big thing is you have to build that independently, right? And that's the thing of speaking to all these creators on Unbox, you see the thread, you have to stick at it for a long period of time before it works, whoever you are, because you need to find your own unique, like play in the space. You want a unique voice, your perfect value proposition.

1:31:42And that takes time, marginal gains, 10 % of video to get there. As you guys know, right? You were saying doing this for five, like five, six years as a, as a duo with the, with the podcast and everything else. And it took you a long time to get that voice perfectly right. And once it clicks, that's it. But I think a lot of these creators have started in the last two years on TikTok think, oh, well I've got numbers on TikTok, it'll immediately convert. And no, you have to build an entirely new audience over here, entirely new. No one will come over with you. And that might take four or five years.

1:32:08But if your voice is proven on TikTok, how do you translate that voice to YouTube without thinking that the audience will come with it? And I think the people that a lot of creators, I think, don't necessarily want to put in the time to build those platforms because it is a long, long journey. And fair enough, you sit in there with a million followers. You think 10 % of them will come over when 0.1 % do. How does that make you feel? Right. What's your advice for creators to become commercially viable? The first is you have to be able to do zero to one by yourself, I believe. You shouldn't be taken on management until you are at scale to warrant management.

1:32:42You shouldn't be, you know, signing anything exclusively. You should be focused on building your voice, building your connection, focus on connection, because without connection, there's nothing to monetize. Not to say you're monetizing your fan base, but there's nothing to commercialize that. There's no value exchange if There's no one to provide value for. Viewers does not translate into fans. Viewers does not translate into customers. And you need to build a clear value proposition first and foremost, and a voice that is strong. And you need to make sure that that is your priority until, and until that works on your own, then you can seek external support and a team.

1:33:17I think, I think a lot of creators jumped the gun on that. You won't be able to afford it principally. And that's a lot harder than it was because you're going to have to do more jobs, wear more hats on your own. but I think once that starts to work I think Dodford's a good example of that in a very different way where he was doing everything by himself he has a couple of videos that bang he's been doing it for a long time he was on TikTok he then pivoted to YouTube started fresh managed to find a formula that worked for him and then by video two video three or you know in the sidemen video really actually ironically took everything off for him and then he's got a commercial business he's making money from his archive he's making money from his future content because he's grinded on his own for so long didn't have a management he didn't have a team i don't believe i might be wrong i don't think he did he did it by himself and that's the key you have to really grind these things out independently get to a scale where they're making some money and then invest that money in a team to help you go to the next level step by step not looking too far ahead and i think if you can do that which is possible today you have to do that on your own then it's a case of right what's step two what's step three how do i get a team how do i get a great accountant how do I get people around me to support me, to go from step two to step three to step four.

1:34:24But if you're trying to jump the gun, go straight into brand deals or to try and procure brand deals, go straight into, you know, trying to launch things without having the connection without proving that connection, then I think it's going to fall down. So I don't know if that makes sense, but that's my sense. What's your advice to us as we embark on this journey? If you look at us from the outside looking in, like where do you think our opportunities are? It's a good question. So I think you guys are like the best of like, I'm not saying this because I think you are unbelievable what you do.

1:34:53And I've always looked at you guys as being the gold standard for the industry, for news about the, for everything to do with the creative economy. As we said on Unboxed, like, you know, it's a lacrosse equivalent. You guys nailed your niche. You've nailed this next niche. It is a niche. And that's the other thing. Creative economy is more of a niche than I thought it was actually. It is a niche, bigger in the States, but still a niche. And you own that space to such a degree that it's just unbelievable. I think for you guys, it's about how do you support creators, but also to the point we're talking about entrepreneurship more broadly.

1:35:24What does it mean to be a YouTube creator in 2023? It's not just about producing entertainment. It's a lot about business, actually, and actually people making money online in whatever field that might be. So I think it's about how do you guys become the voice of digital entrepreneurship as well as content creators, because content creators are digital entrepreneurs. how does that broaden out from, from as you did with Tim Ferriss, I thought it was a great example. Someone like Tim is a really great move away from content creators exclusively into thought leadership, into wider, bigger, purposeful conversation around, you know, some of the big issues which impact the modern entrepreneur.

1:36:02I think you guys do that amazingly well. And that for me, that sort of move is like, yeah, that's great. And then it's about physical connection, live, live experiences, courses, you know, you building out products and IP around the value that you're giving and also the people that you're able to speak to. I also do think, you know, I looked at like what Masterclass obviously did. And in that time, is there like a better version of that that's more suited for not just creators, but for digital entrepreneurs, for people who make money on the internet? That's cool. Which is really what this is all about.

1:36:31Totally. And then I think it also gone. No, I was going to say it's a good perspective. I think like, I appreciate that by the way. and I think like we really look at Tim Ferriss is a great example of like widening the view not necessarily pivoting but like widening the view of what does digital entrepreneurship look like? What does a creator mean? And then when you talk about masterclass and think about some of that it's like I think all of that is access driven and it still feels like to me we're in the early stages the infancy of building our trust with the people that we're engaging with. Yeah.

1:37:02The other thing I also think you guys would do amazing at is a book. That's something we want. And the reason, yeah, books don't make money really, but they drive so much credibility. Like you guys being the educators on a global level, you know, places like a Davos or like a DLD festival, any of those big kind of industry conferences, you being the voice of this scene and establishing to the world how powerful this scene is, I think would be like, that kind of a piece would be just transformation. I think would really elevate and broaden outside of YouTube once you have that kind of a touch point.

1:37:41Once you're in New York Times, you would get immediately. It's like, okay, cool. You're in a different level of thought leadership now. You make that sound very simple. We're very overwhelmed by the premise of writing a book. I think we have aspirations to do it. You can get help to do that as well. Yeah, but I think we also know that we want to take a significant break from YouTube to do it because we want to go all in. Do it properly. Yeah. Yeah. There's no world where that's like a side project, right? That's like an all-in effort. If you want to do it to your level, which is, and everything that you guys do, and obviously spending today with you, like getting a glimpse of how you really care about your product and about what you're doing.

1:38:18So it would need that level of detail and perfection. But if you took a break and you said, right, we've got this much content banked. We're going to take three months, six months. We're going to have a ghostwriter to help you probably. It helps to have somebody there. For sure. And you say, right, how do we make this the best book in the world? and like really do something that puts this market and this economy, this economy, this industry of digital entrepreneurship, which I think is what it really is, right? Self-starters online, whether they're filmmakers or people like an alley or whoever it might be.

1:38:45How do you bring that out to a much wider global audience, which you'd be able to do from the States, especially because you're in the country that is the leader in everything. Okay, all right. You just, yeah, yeah. You kicked off an idea. Do you need any help? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Maybe. Well, you're not taking on any other clients. Well, we're not, no. yeah yeah exactly exactly just a few friends hanging out that's cool um i i have to ask you i i wrote this down i forgot to ask it earlier like what have you learned about dealing with controversy with creators because that is something that as you reach larger and larger scale yeah you know we always talk we talked about this with jimmy we've talked about it internally like you go from this feeling of being underrated right where you're like oh all your fans are like these guys are underrated more people should know about them to like when you're as mainstream as a Mr.

1:39:33Beast or a sideman people are after you right and then not only that everything you say is scrutinized and then sometimes people are human and they say things that get them into trouble right yeah yeah I think the key to managing crises for any creator or any talent personality brand whatever it might be is to take accountability and realize you can't hide anymore and you have to own up to your mistakes fully and be really open with that be simple be clear um and don't over cook it don't overdo it just own up to if you made a mistake people are human and i think what's beautiful about this space is that the respect for the humanity of the artist creator whatever name you want to say is so much higher than in the traditional world where people were put on a pedestal and they had no flaws flaws and faults and you're still seeing that today a lot of a lot of presenters in the uk have big falls from grace because they're seen as these shining cultural superstars who are untouchable and they're almost deified in the way that the culture looks to them.

1:40:28Whereas for creators, I think there's a humanity that drives that connection. You know, these people are real. The reason why you like them is because they could be your friend. Therefore, they will make mistakes. Therefore, they will mess up. Therefore, they will need to apologize. And you hold them to account as an audience tightly. On the other hand, you know, the creator will accept that and will own that because that's what's made them as popular and successful as they are. So I think those principles still apply, but in the creative space, it's a lot easier, I would say, to hold your hands up in a way that traditional talent just can't do, which I think is liberating because if you do hold your hand up and you don't try to run away from it, your audience will respect that.

1:41:05And I think they'll support you in whatever it is. I think we've seen probably, I mean, a lot of examples like that, if that makes sense. My last question for you is, is there a future for this term, the creator economy? Yes, but not how we think it maybe is. I do believe for sure, it's not even a question. The money that's made online is huge. The opportunity for young people to make businesses online has never been bigger before. For brands to grow online, never been bigger before. The opportunity for social to transform lives, huge. Do I think that the content creator economy or the content creator opportunity is as big as maybe it's seen or maybe it felt a year ago, two years ago, five years ago.

1:41:52No, because I think this disruption has drastically shifted the market. What I do think though, on the other hand, is that the opportunity for everybody to have a voice now has never been bigger. Social has never been more exciting because you can out of nowhere blow up. You can go viral. You can make a brand a huge success overnight. That can happen today. It couldn't happen before. So for everyday people, unbelievable. for focused professional creators, I think quite hard. And that means people need to realign, I think, creators especially need to realign slightly in light of this space. What you do, your value, you provide, the connection you're building, those things, TikTok or not, will still be an opportunity to grow that and develop that and deepen that.

1:42:35But how you build that business around that needs to change. And that's why I think actually, as creators go into this new phase, it's having the awareness that there is a change taking place and not being stuck in 2016 because if you're stuck in 2016 i think you're going to struggle commercially to build something your phone is blowing up i imagine that you have you have a lot of uh business to get to it's your wife which is another part of you know two kids i think uh probably crying in the car so that's it yeah i can imagine your day-to-day is pretty wild yeah it's got a third on the way as well coming Wow, wow, congrats.

1:43:11Thank you. Wow, I really appreciate you spending this much time with us. Yeah, it's been a lot of fun. So thank you so much guys for having me. Last, last question. Can we have passes to the charity match? Of course you can. Okay. You have to, I'm holding you to that. You got to come. I think we have to come back in September. Great. Yeah. Okay. All right. We'll see you back here in London then. Yeah. Thanks, Jordan. Thank you guys.

1:43:40Thank you.